White House: Use Metric If You Want, We Don't Care

Earlier this year we discussed a petition on the White House's 'We The People' site asking the administration to adopt the metric system as the standard system of measurement in the U.S. Today, the administration issued a disappointing response. Simply put: they're not going to do anything about it. They frame their response as a matter of preserving a citizen's choice to adopt whatever measurement system he wants. Quoting Patrick D. Gallagher of the National Institute of Standards and Technology: "... contrary to what many people may think, the U.S. uses the metric system now to define all basic units used in commerce and trade. At the same time, if the metric system and U.S. customary system are languages of measurement, then the United States is truly a bilingual nation. ... Ultimately, the use of metric in this country is a choice and we would encourage Americans to continue to make the best choice for themselves and for the purpose at hand and to continue to learn how to move seamlessly between both systems. In our voluntary system, it is the consumers who have the power to make this choice. So if you like, "speak" metric at home by setting your digital scales to kilograms and your thermometers to Celsius. Cook in metric with liters and grams and set your GPS to kilometers. ... So choose to live your life in metric if you want, and thank you for signing on."

Comments

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[GeoSanDiego]

A good place to start would be on all of the federal highway signs.

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[countach44]

Actually, there are limited places in the US that do this: Metric Road Signs in the US I think this is something that could be voted on at the municipality/state level and could eventually work its way nationally.

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[UltraZelda64]

"55 MPH" seems fine to me. I don't have a problem with adding KPH readings to the signs, but if they want to claim that they are truly "bilingual" with measurements, then having both MPH and KPH would make the most sense...

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[waddgodd]

They did that once, ISTR the mileage (kilometerage?) sign on I-15 between Blackfoot and Pocatello, Idaho being in both Miles and Kilometers in about '75-'77ish (I was a bit young at the time), but since it was during the Carter administration, of course it HAD to be undone because fuck Democrats. I can't remember exactly when I-15 signs were changed over to strictly miles, but I think it was the late eighties. So until we get over this two-party backbiting festival in DC, it does us no good to even try to do good things.

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[mark-t]

When Canada was switching to metric, dual signage was common. The km/h value was shown first, and the mph was shown in a smaller (but still quite readable) font below it. Usage of "km/h" or "mph" was explicit, to ensure there was no ambiguity.

This transition period lasted for quite some time, and after a while, the signs were ultimately replaced with speed limits listing strictly in km/h (and often the "km/h" was no longer present as well).

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[Microsift]

And don't forget bank thermometers

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[CohibaVancouver]

Take your awkward, unnatural metric system back to europe where it belongs

I agree this is nothing the USA can afford to do right now. After all, you need that money to fight the drug war and build more aircraft carriers.

However, while the metric system is many things, 'awkward and unnatural' isn't one of them. You look up 'awkward' in the dictionary and there's the Imperial system. 5280 feet in a mile? 16 ounces in a pound? Water freezes at 32 degrees?

What the hell? It's like if my toddler invented a system of weights and measures.

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[msauve]

It's not a waste of money if the Feds simply say that any new signs paid for with Federal highway funds must have SI units as their primary measure. They should also require auto manufacturers to mark speedometers with km/h (although most already do).

The SI has officially been""the preferred system of weights and measures for United States trade and commerce" since 1975, so it's well past time to make that mean something.

No sympathy for innumerates who find it difficult, because it is in fact much simpler.

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[RabidReindeer]

"55 MPH" seems fine to me. I don't have a problem with adding KPH readings to the signs, but if they want to claim that they are truly "bilingual" with measurements, then having both MPH and KPH would make the most sense...

They did that in Florida. People kept stealing the signs.

Then they raised the speed limit and dropped the metric numbers.

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[Hentes]

Actually, it should be in km/s, as h isn't SI.

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[Miamicanes]

Every time a state starts printing metric speed limits, it inevitably ends up rounding the limit DOWN.

I remember one failed experiment where FDOT (Florida) tried to be cute and put up signs declaring "44kph" to be the metric equivalent of 30mph (it's only 27mph). The signs were SO hated, most of them got vandalized beyond recognition within a month, and pretty much ALL of them had the "44" spray painted, X'ed (with black markers), or shot out (with BBs, paintball pellets, or real honest-to-god bullets) by the time FDOT took them down and replaced them with 30mph signs. FDOT later admitted that it was a mistake.

If you want the public to accept metric speed limits, roll them out with a big public campaign that emphasizes that the limits are being RAISED everywhere by up to 5mph. Instantly, metric speed limits will become popular and cool among drivers. Declare 115kph (71.45mph) to be the equivalent of 70mph, and drivers will like them. Round it up to 120kph (74.56mph), and drivers will LOVE them. Try pulling another FDOT stunt by putting up signs saying "70mph/111kph", and they'll get vandalized beyond recognition within days.

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[cdecoro]

That would be the last place to start, as it would cost a fortune to replace all of the highway signs. Not only that, but also all of the mile markers, for which most states have every 1/10 of a mile. Moreover, contrary to what some people have implied, the numbers are generally not painted on, they're fabricated from other materials and overlaid. And for what? So we can convert the length of our commute into a multiple of our height, or something else of the sort? Yes, it's absolutely absurd that there are 12 inches in a foot, 3 feet in a yard, and I-don't-even-know-how-many yards in a mile (and yes, I've heard of Google/Wikipedia; but I just don't care). The truth is, I never need to convert inches into miles. You measure human-scale things in feet and inches, travelling distances in miles.

On the other hand, you know where we should start: volumetric measurements. I have frequently had a recipe that takes some number of teaspoons of a liquid, while having measuring cups measured in (naturally) cups, and nutritional information in ounces. Oh, and keep in mind that most tea spoons are significantly larger than a teaspoon. And then there's tablespoons, pints, quarts, gallons, barrels, and who knows what else. This is a lot harder to keep straight, and unlike miles to inches, sometimes you actually need to convert between these.

Add into the mix the problem that pints differ from place to place (either 16 or 20 oz), and "ounce" is both a volumetric measure and a weight measure. Obviously, if you have something that's clearly a solid or a liquid, it's clear which is which. But what about, say, frozen yogurt. When the self-serve froyo place sells by the ounce, and posts calories by the ounce, it would only be reasonable to think that these are the same ounces. It would also be wrong.

Moreover, in the case of volumetric measures, not only do you have a real problem, but an easier solution: most of the containers that hold liquids are disposable anyways, and constantly manufactured (i.e. food). All that would need to be done is to make containers that are metric-sized, and printed with metric labels, rather than Imperial. In fact, we're closer to that already. By law, all wine and distilled alcohol must be sold in one of several metric sizes (for distilled, it is 375 mL, 750 mL, 1L, 1.75 L, if I recall correctly). Soda is frequently sold in 2 L bottles.

Do that, let people see that metric actually saves time and hassle, and then go about changing other measurements. Weight would probably be the easiest to transition next, followed by lengths for things other than highway signs. (No one will care that they can't easily convert meters into miles, just as they don't care that they can't convert feet into miles). But please don't try to start with highway signs. Or bother with highway signs at all, for that matter. They are the death of metricfication in the US, and insistence on them is only counterproductive to the rest of your goals.

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[Arancaytar]

meters per second or nothing! :P

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[Sponge Bath]

it should be in km/s

I can see the speed limit signs now: 1.94E-3 km/s.

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[Krishnoid]

Or you could start with our less advantaged citizens.

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[Anonymous Coward]

Ya' know, they have a system where they put two rows of numbers on a dial to tell how fast the vehicle is going. One of the rows can be MPH and the other km/h.

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[hawguy]

Try to convert 100km/h to mph while the cop is just behind you, and the driving instructor next you, and you have to make the decision in a few seconds, meaning calculation from one system to another, and taking care of the passing by cars, and the good looking chicken crossing the street, and the singing birds, and...and....

Every car I've owned in the past 10 years has had both km/h and mph markings on the speedometer - though they've all been german and/or Japanese cars.

Do some cars only show mph?

Anyone that runs 10K races will be able to do the conversion quite easily, 10 km=6.2 mi so 100km/hr = 62mph

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[Kohath]

Too bad President McCain kept us from repairing them by vetoing that stimulus package.

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[Anonymous Coward]

Not to mention that the imperial system is also from europe :)

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[hawguy]

Just a big waste of taxpayer money for something purely cosmetic. It would a frivolous waste of money we dont have to fix something thats not broken. I already pay too many taxes as it is. We need to stop spending on frivolous crap like this. It would confuse the hell out of everyone and there are no real reasons or benefits, just nonsense excuses. I actually find the english system to be perfectly fine and useable on road signs. No need to fix something thats not broken. Take your awkward, unnatural metric system back to europe where it belongs. i like the mile and foot just fine and I actually prefer this on our signs.

Why is the metric system not natural? It makes for nice even numbers on road signs, instead of the common 35mph and 55mph, you have 50km/hr and 100km/hr.

I grew up in the USA and can switch seamlessly among metric and american units of length and volume, but I still need to mentally convert units of weight (well, ok, mass, I don't regularly use Newtons) and temperature in my head. My wife didn't move to the USA until she was in her late 20's, so she needs to convert measurements to the metric system to understand it. She learned English in school, but they didn't teach american units.

She still rolls her eyes when I try to explain how the american system is better for dividing into smaller parts -- if you have a recipe that calls for 16 ounces of butter, and you want to cut it by 1/4, then it's easy to use 4 ounces. Then she said "What if you want to cut it by 1/5", and I didn't have a good answer for that.

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[EvanED]

Are there many different speed limits in US?

Yeah. 25, 30, 35, 45, 55, 65, and 70 are all extremely common in my experience. 15 and 20 are common for fairly special cases (e.g. school zones or shopping mall access roads), you occasionally see 40 or 50, and other parts of the country have interstate speed limits that are 75 or even 85.

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[Tuidjy]

Kilometer means 1000 meters. Milli-, nano-, kilo-, terra- are ways to conveniently denote powers of ten. It's a system of prefixes, and yes, it is defined in the metric system.

Si is a system of units. Abbreviation from SystÃme international des unités (I may be missing an 'e' or an accent, somewhere)

The two are systems, both are quite French, but their origins are about a century apart, if I am not mistaken.

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[EvanED]

Abbreviation from SystÃfme international des unitÃf©s (I may be missing an 'e' or an accent, somewhere)

Don't worry, so is Slashcode.

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[msauve]

" It's like if my toddler invented a system of weights and measures." Unlike today, where many units are defined by fundamental physical properties which can be duplicated (to a high accuracy) anywhere, Imperial measurements came from the need to be able to specify units which would be suitably accurate across geographies.

So, we ended up with a foot being, well, the length of a foot. A mile ("mille passus") being 1000 paces, etc. The needs were to measure small units (foot), or large distances (mile), so the conversion wasn't often needed (who builds a mile long building, or steps toe-to-heal across Europe?)

Then you get a pound being equivalent to so many grains of wheat (or a different number of grains of barley), etc.

It made sense at the time, and worked well enough.

BTW, 16 oz in a lb is from binary powers, easily divisible. The history of temperature units is interesting and convoluted, but 32 for freezing is based on binary divisions (64 units) between that and human body temperature (96). 0 was ice+salt. So again, it was an attempt at units which could be duplicated independently.

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[istartedi]

5280 feet in a mile

Care to foot the bill (no pun intended) for all the land records that would have to change? Aside from the problem of changing, that 5280 feet is very convenient. How?

A square mile is a "section", which is 640 acres. Now 640 acres ought to be enough for anybody (heheh). You could be the "section boss"--a familiar phrase from the Old West. Take that section and cut it into 16 equal squares. You get 16 40-acre plots. You could have "40 acres and a mule" if you bought one--another familiar phrase with deep meaning to African-Americans. The 40 acres are conveniently divided again into 10 acres plots, then in half for a five acre lot. Five acre lots were common mini-estate sizes where I grew up for this reason.

OK fine, by all means define the foot in terms of metric; but remove it from all records and from the culture? No. Just. No.

Aside from that, the Metric system is no less arbitrary than our customary units. The only reason 10 matters is because we have 10 digits on our hands. An alien race might not. If you want something truly universal, consider Planck units. Otherwise, all the metric arguments just boil down to "my arbitrary system is better than yours".

If anything, a system where things are commonly divided into two is more "ready for the digital age" than one that uses base-10 everywhere.

All that aside, I've gotten used to some metric units over the years. Liters are nice enough; but Celcius? Fuggedaboutit. Each decade of the Fahrenheit scale has a readily associated "feel" that Celcius can't match. They're both arbitrary systems, so it's really just one person's preferance vs. another.

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[camperdave]

Some cars with digital dashboards will allow you to select either km/h or mph, but will not show both. To switch, you have to reprogram the selections.

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[AuMatar]

Except nobody's feet are exactly 1 foot. Nor is anyone's 1000 paces exactly 1 mile. If those were truly universal measurements, you'd have some point. As they're not, you don't. And in the long term we'd save money by being on the same system as literally every other country in the world by removing the possibility of tooling mistakes, idiocies like NASA Orbiter problem, and additional cost to companies trying to sell in the US of having to have both measurements in their workflows and computer systems.

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[camperdave]

You want further broken-ness? You cannot just measure the volume of a liquid in US customary units. Nor can you just plop a chunk of stuff on a scale to see how much it weighs. Why? Because different substances use different units. Wine uses different volume units than beer, which is in turn different than the units you would use for water. An ounce of gold is heavier than an ounce of steel, but a pound of gold is lighter than a pound of steel, because the pounds and ounces that you use to measure gold are different than the pounds and ounces you use to measure steel.

Oh, and if you were to dig out your ruler and measure out two survey markers that are supposed to be ten miles apart, you'd find them to be 633601+1/4 inches apart, instead of the 633600 inches you'd expect, because again, the imperial system is broken. Survey miles are different than real miles.

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[rHBa]

Moreover, in the case of volumetric measures, not only do you have a real problem, but an easier solution: most of the containers that hold liquids are disposable anyways, and constantly manufactured (i.e. food). All that would need to be done is to make containers that are metric-sized, and printed with metric labels, rather than Imperial.

FWIW, this became a legal requirement in the UK 20+(?) years ago when we joined the EU and we have just about assimilated metric measures of volume and weight when it comes to consumables.

Also noteworthy, the building industry also works in metric these days, although there are many builders who still think in ft/in a lot of the materials are sold in metric sizes, i.e the width of a standard sheet of plaster board (sheet rock) dictates how you space your studs.

However, street signs are still in MPH and most people still measure their body weight in Stones and their height in Feet and Inches.

It takes a while but the ability to trade with neighbouring countries makes it worth it...

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[Bing Tsher E]

We need to keep all the shovels ready for Obama's Shovel Ready Healthcare System, ya know.

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[Myopic]

It depends on how strict you are being: "Most of mankind has used the day and its non-decimal subdivisions as a basis of time ... The catalogued units are minute, hour, day...".

So, GGP made a point, GP tried to get pedantic, you upped his pedantry, and now I've upped yours. We are approaching the asymptotic limit of pedantry.

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[AlphaWolf_HK]

I really don't think measurements are a political party thing. There's no major religious argument in favor of it (keword: major) akin to say evolution vs creationism, and there's no party line that we have to use X system. It's just that average joe's prefer things a certain way.

Ever since I was in the Army, I've always written my dates as 12-FEB-09, and sometimes when I do so, somebody gives me shit because I don't use the same date format that "everybody else" uses, and it is never a conservative or liberal thing. I could see maybe if I wrote 12/02/09, which would easily be interpreted as either december 9th or february 12th, but I like that date format for the same reason that the Army uses it as standard: There is no ambiguity. No matter what day of the month it is, the date/month is obvious, but people still complain to me about it anyways.

Likewise, I could see why they'd complain even more about measurements. It's hard to mentally picture units that you aren't used to thinking in without doing a manual conversion.

And FFS I'm sick of this constant political divisiveness just for the sake of political divisiveness. Stop pointing fingers at the "other side" just because something doesn't go your way. If you stop to look for a second, you'll often find that members of the "other side" agree with you on more things than you realize.

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[VortexCortex]

but if they want to claim that they are truly "bilingual" with measurements, then having both MPH and KPH would make the most sense...

They did that in Florida. People kept stealing the signs.

You might be a redneck if, your unit conversion chart is made of empty food boxes and stolen street signs...

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[CAIMLAS]

When you see 1 1/4 cups, or 55 mph, or 3 1/2 miles to the exit - there's a good chance that the measurement is inexact or unnecessary. Nobody actually paced out exactly 18,480 feet and placed the "3.5 mile" sign at exactly that spot. They placed the sign and filled in the best available number in the most convenient unit.

As someone who's done roadway surveying... yeah, um, that's a horribly ignorant statement. Maybe you live in CA or something, where that approach seems acceptable, but throughout most of the US, there is consistency in things like: distance between a stop sign and an intersection, roadway mile markers (some places it's a quarter mile, some places it's a mile, etc.). Believe it or not, a roadway where the speed limit is 55mph WILL be surveyed its full distance to within an inch of accuracy for elevation, the roadway bedding, incline, and curve - there's a lot of math that goes into it, and it's all thoroughly planned out.

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[Anonymous Coward]

Here in the US, we have:

5 mph -- some private parking areas.
10 mph -- other private areas.
20 mph -- school zones.
25 mph -- some neighborhood streets.
30 mph -- other neighborhood streets
35 mph -- most city streets
40 mph -- boulevards/avenues.
45 mph -- larger streets.
50 mph -- some highways.
55 mph -- other limited access highways.
60 mph -- some interstates in town.
65 mph -- most interstates around a town.
70 mph -- rural roads.
75 mph -- rural highways.
80 mph -- Texas 130
85 mph -- Texas 130 between Seguin and San Antonio

Enforcement is random. In California, they use cameras that will go off at 1mph over (assuming they are kept in any calibration, which is unlikely.) Rural roads, they will pull over at 1mph over since it might mean a marijuana bust and a free seized vehicle. Most cities don't care, so there is a 10% margin unless there is a push for revenue, then that 10% can turn into any factor.

There are also plenty of speed traps. Marking a transition from 65 to 35 can be made optional, and some places will place school zones on 65mph roads which go to 20 mph. Don't see the sign, the city gets the cash for reckless child endangerment, felony charges.

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[Immerman]

Actualy, I believe pedantry actually has a diagonal asymptote and can thus increase without bound.

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[otuz]

I'd suggest just base36-formatting the epoch (unix) time. It's about mnbzcn when I'm writing this.

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[Solandri]

This. I think most folks have the wrong idea about how a society actually changes. The people themselves don't change. Once someone is about in their mid-20s or 30s, their habits and preferences become ingrained and are highly unlikely to ever change for the rest of their lives. You're not going to be able to convince them to use metric, so don't even bother trying. Instead, you take advantage of the fact that people grow old and die, and are constantly replaced by younger people.

You introduce a new system in a way that it doesn't upset the older generation while giving the younger generation a chance to get used to it. Then you wait for the older generation to die off. Then you abandon the old system. So introduce signage in both metric and English. Wait a generation or two until the bulk of the population is used to both systems. Then you phase out the English system.

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[Will.Woodhull]

As parent said, lots of different speed limits. Also in rural areas there are road signs like

"Last gas for 75 miles"

"Next rest area 43 miles"

"Road work begins in 33 miles. Trucks and cars with trailers must use alternate route 10 miles ahead. No gas stations on alternate route for 76 miles"

These are particularly meaningful in parts of Eastern Oregon, Idaho, Montana, etc, where there is nothing between gas stations and rest areas but sage brush, a few jack rabbits, and even fewer coyotes.

I heard tell of a billboard in the Mojave Desert that has an arrow pointing at the dirt under it and reads "Last shade for 150 miles." But that might be just crazy California talk.

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[mark-t]

They didn't wait a generation.... the conversion started in Canada, in earnest, in about 1971, and was completed over the course of about 10 years.

Oddly enough, about 5 years after the decade-long process of Canada's conversion to Metric was completed, our then-prime minister ended up abolishing the regulations that really enabled the conversion to happen in the first place. Switching back, since it was not actually legislated any more, was simply too inconvenient, and Canada remained on the metric system ever since.

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[hedwards]

That's been my experience, I spent a year using the metric system in China, and I came to realize fairly quickly that there was no particular advantage for every day life. Rather than buying my meat by the pound, I would buy it by the half kilo. Sure, it's not quite the same amount, but it's fairly close.

Temperatures took the longest to get intuitively as I had to live through the various weather patterns before I could feel it. But, even then there wasn't really any advantage to it as I was still comparing it to what I consider a comfortable temperature.

Driving, well, you don't generally think about the distances in terms of feet, or meters,you usually think of it in terms of miles and kilometers, and use the odometer heavily, so there wasn't much change there either.

For all the slamming of the US by foreigners over the issue, you'd think that the imperial system was incredibly hard to use. Which it's not, it just requires somewhat more work to learn in the first place. But, even then, not really as you're not using the numbers in most cases, you're comparing with your experience. I don't usually care if it's exactly right, I want to know if it's about what I want.

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[vux984]

A square mile is a "section", which is 640 acres. Now 640 acres...

Canada managed to cope just fine. I used to live in a rural area where the road network was pretty much a grid, divided into square miles. Converting things to metric didn't bring about the end of the world. People still talk about acreage since the historic size of the plots were even acres - I lived on a 5 acre plot which as you noted were quite common, and since the intersections are a mile apart we'll still use miles when giving directions. And there is no reason to eradicate that.

But the speed limit is 90km/h, farmers know how much property they have in hectares, and the measurements for all the properties in meters is available for legal property descriptions.

OK fine, by all means define the foot in terms of metric; but remove it from all records and from the culture? No. Just. No.

I don't think we need to actively eradicate it. But if we stop using it officially, it will gradually fade into the background. I doubt anyone in rural manitoba is ever going to completely stop using miles given the physical layout of the rural road network. But that's fine.

Aside from that, the Metric system is no less arbitrary than our customary units. The only reason 10 matters is because we have 10 digits on our hands. An alien race might not.

That is the opposite of arbitrary. Yes, we surely use base 10 due to the number of digits on our hands, but metric was designed to fit into base 10. That was not an arbitrary decision. We are not an alien race. Base 10 is natural for us; not arbitrary.

Otherwise, all the metric arguments just boil down to "my arbitrary system is better than yours".

The precise length of a meter is arbitrary; and we both use the same somewhat arbitrary unit of time (seconds) but pretty much everything else derives from that in a natural and logical way. Volume, mass, energy, speed, temperature, force. English units are not linked the same way. There is no defined relationship betwen a gallon and a foot the way there is between a meter and a liter. Or between a pound and a foot the way there is between a kilogram and a meter. A 4 liter jug of milk has a mass of 4 kilograms (for all practical purposes). To equate the arbitrariness of metric and imperial is just delusional.

but Celcius? Fuggedaboutit. Each decade of the Fahrenheit scale has a readily associated "feel" that Celcius can't match.

I've got no issues whatsoever with celsius. Instead of 10 degree feels, its more increments of 5. Its what you grow up with.

They're both arbitrary systems, so it's really just one person's preferance vs. another.

Metric is far less internally arbitrary, and pretty much all the rest of world uses it. Personal preference in my opinion seems to come down to what you grew up with; so raising the next generation in metric will take care of that. There's no real reason for -you- to change though.

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[PopeRatzo]

As long as you write 1.94E-3 km/s plus or minus a standard deviation [Sigma], in regards to the distribution of speeds people actually travel down the road away from the mean, or plus or minus 10x the expected measurement error.

OK, you're officially in charge of the standards committee for the spastic system.

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[arth1]

Time is just made-up numbers on a made-up scale. Use GMT if you want. The rest of the world won't, because I like lunch at noon and dinner in the afternoon, not lunch at 7am and dinner at noon.

So if you like to eat lunch at noon, I take it you eat it at 1 PM when DST is in effect?

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[westlake]

So, we ended up with a foot being, well, the length of a foot,
It made sense at the time, and worked well enough.

The history of temperature units is interesting and convoluted, but 32 for freezing is based on binary divisions (64 units) between that and human body temperature (96).

Fahrenheit is quite useful when you are thinking in terms of human comfort and safety.

Summer weight clothing will be appropriate and comfortable at 75, autumn weight at 50, winter weight at 25.

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[Cimexus]

It's not that the US system is hard to use, it's that you're the last outliers (among major developed countries at least) not to switch. It's for the sake of consistency rather than anything else. No more having to program two separate measurement systems into every bit of software. No more wondering WTF 'letter' size paper is anymore when your printer demands it for some reason (i.e. someone in the US has emailed you a document that wants to print on that size paper). Etc.

It'd be no different if everyone ELSE used the US system, and the US were the only people using metric - it would make sense to change. It's not about which system is better, it's about being consistent.

If there were several major countries not using metric yet, then I don't think there'd be the same 'annoyance' with the Americans. But you guys are literally the ... last ... ones. Cmon! :)

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[VGPowerlord]

As I recall, it was required nation-wide during the late 70s. Then Reagan happened.

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[Cimexus]

Australia, Canada, NZ and many other countries that have vast areas of land divided up into neat blocks based on miles and acres seemed to manage just fine.

Also your comment regarding temperature and 'feel' is simply rooted in what you're used to, and would be no different if using Celsius. As a 'native' Celsius user, I feel the same way about C. To me, each interval of 5 C has a similar associated 'feel', centered neatly around 20 C (room temperature, typically what you'd have a thermostat set to). So I think of the 15-20 range much like you'd think of "60s", and 20-25 like you'd think about "70s" etc. (Obviously neither maps neatly to the other, but the principal is the same).

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[Cimexus]

Here in metric-using Australia, I'm 178 cm, spoken "one seventy-eight". Barely any longer to say than the approximate equivalent "five eleven". Noone says "one point blah blah metres" - height is in centimetres (specifically to avoid using decimal points and/or mixing units).

Also, as a Celsius-user, I think of each 5-degree increment as a "different sort of clothing" marker (or at least a "different type of weather feel"). Centered on 20 C (comfortable room temperature), which is no more difficult than thinking about departure from comfortable room temperature in F (i.e. ~70 F).

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[SydShamino]

The metric system is seen as foreign governments exerting pressure on the US to conform. There is a party that claims to resist a global world government, and thus tries to resist such pressures. If that party furthermore starts to point out that SI is French, the factions of that party that also dislike the French will resist the metric system even more.

Ever since I was in the Army, I've always written my dates as 12-FEB-09, and sometimes when I do so, somebody gives me shit because I don't use the same date format that "everybody else" uses, and it is never a conservative or liberal thing. I could see maybe if I wrote 12/02/09, which would easily be interpreted as either december 9th or february 12th, but I like that date format for the same reason that the Army uses it as standard: There is no ambiguity.

See ISO 8601.

Re:Start here

[smellotron]

Your post made me question what tied "noon" to 12:00 in the first place... The Internet says that noon originally meant 15:00, as the ninth hour of daylight (noon ~ nine). Contrast that with "high noon" which refers to the sun being directly overhead.

Re:Start here

[n3r0.m4dski11z]

" The people themselves don't change. Once someone is about in their mid-20s or 30s, their habits and preferences become ingrained and are highly unlikely to ever change for the rest of their lives."

Maybe its because I am getting older, or not old enough, but [citation needed] on that one. I regularly change my mind. I also regularly have insights. I hope people don't lose that with age, and I certianly know many 60y+ old people who have to adapt and do.

You realized we are talking about reading different numbers off of street signs right? I would feel bad if I ever got to a point where I was incapable of reading signs, and probably shouldn't be driving at that point. I guess the km/h text on the speedo isn't bigger on american cars? canadian cars all have both scales, with the km/h being the most prominent or a different colour, going back to at least 80s cars. Wouldn't most new cars have electronic speedometers which would probably change at the touch of a button? is this really that difficult for people that should in theory, have the ability to drive?

Re:Start here

[Solandri]

Except nobody's feet are exactly 1 foot. Nor is anyone's 1000 paces exactly 1 mile. If those were truly universal measurements, you'd have some point. As they're not, you don't.

The units were more convenient back in the day before the advent of widespread calibrated measuring tools and interchangeable parts (about the 19th-20th century). In those days, for purposes of construction and manufacturing, it didn't matter if your measurements were universally consistent. As long as they were locally consistent you were ok. If the castle walls were supposed to be quarter mile square, a surveyor could pace out 250 steps along one wall. As long as the same surveyor paced out the 3 other walls, you were good. (That's just an example. In reality there are other things you'd have to do to make sure the corners were right angles which obviate the need to actually pace out wall lengths multiple times.)

idiocies like NASA Orbiter problem

The Mars Climate Orbiter wasn't really lost because of a botched imperial to metric conversion. It was lost because (1) someone didn't write down the units on a number. And (2) the person(s) who received the number didn't make a phone call asking what the units were, and instead assumed what they were. The exact same failure can happen even if all your numbers are metric. There's just a higher chance that error (2) will accidentally cancel out error (1) if both numbers are using the same unit system.

That's what was drilled into me while studying as an engineer - who cares if the numbers are imperial or metric? You're usually going to be doing a lot of complex math with the numbers, so an extra multiplication for a unit conversion is trivial. Knowing what the units for a number are, however, is crucial. If we ever turned in a homework problem or answered a test question with a number but no units, it was automatically marked wrong (dimensionless numbers excepted).

Re:Start here

[mishehu]

Every car that my family owned since around 1983 had both mph and kph on the dial. This counts even GM cars back in the early 80's before my folks switched to Japanese automakers.

I really wish we could just put a fork in it and be done with the migration to metric. Do we buy soda by... the 4 oz, 12oz, 16oz, 20oz, 1/2 liter, liter, 2 liter, 3 liter? Medicines are measured as... hmm... ml, teaspoons, various gram-oriented measures, etc. It's fscking schizophrenic...

Re:Start here

[dryeo]

Here (Canada) when we converted there were lots of commercials with facts like 20=30,30=50,40=60 and 60=100 (or perhaps it was vice a versa, long time ago) and it became automatic 60mph is the same as 100km/h, no thinking needed.
They also mailed out little stickers that you could put on your speedometer so that you could look and see, Since then most vehicles have both, usually large font is km/h and small print is mph.

Re:Start here

[Anonymous Coward]

Ever since I was in the Army, I've always written my dates as 12-FEB-09, and sometimes when I do so, somebody gives me shit because I don't use the same date format that "everybody else" uses, and it is never a conservative or liberal thing. I could see maybe if I wrote 12/02/09, which would easily be interpreted as either december 9th or february 12th, but I like that date format for the same reason that the Army uses it as standard: There is no ambiguity

So is that 12th Feb 2009, or 9th Feb 2012?

Re:Start here

[staalmannen]

Right now, there are only 3 countries in the world that are non-metric: US, Burma and Liberia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Metrication_by_year_map.svg). Some have made a partial conversion, Brittain officially changed to the metric system partially but their street signs are still in miles. I think a conversion in the modern society needs to take its time due to all the legacy material (maps, cars etc). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metrication_in_the_United_Kingdom And seriously, the Britts got lots of other standards compliance issues which probably hurts its consumers by more expensive custom-made products for that market, like cars made for left traffic and their own type of electrical plugs compared to the rest of EU.

Re:Start here

[Sun]

Almost a decade ago, I was in a trip to the USA. I was very surprised to see Liter used for car engine sizes (here they usually use cubic centimeters, which are exactly 1/1000, so not a real problem).

I remember strolling through a supermarket, and looking at the soda bottles, which were bigger than the 1.5L bottles common here. I picked one up to see what size it was. I guess most readers know the answer - it was 2 liters. I remember wondering how come Americans are willing to use a metric unit.

So I asked a vendor. His answer was "This isn't a metric unit. It's liter".
So I asked him how much was a liter, and his answer was something along the lines of "33.8 ounces" (without blinking of stopping to think about it).

Which, of course, got me my answer. The reason Americans are using a metric unit is because they don't know it's metric.

The problem with your proposal is that, if implemented that way, means just adding another unit to the mix, without exposing people to the main advantage that the metric system has to offer. That does not bode well for a "migration path".

You should add to that the fact that volume realization is hard. I'll give a couple of examples. First, bear in mind that the two units people are, more or less, familiar with are a milliliter (1 cubic centimeter = 1/1000 of a liter) and a liter.

The first was when a company I worked for ordered a certain amount of boxes for their product. We were trying to figure out whether we have where to store them. I made the calculation, based on box size, and figured the entire bunch would require a little less than 2 cubic meters (around 1.8). We sort of made a hand gesture estimate and figured it was not that much. Boy, were we wrong. We ended up using up every spare cabinet and space in the office. Lesson learned: a cubic meter is a lot.

The happened just yesterday. I was telling my wife we will have to remove some soil from our garden to make space for extra flooring. She said "we'll be giving that to friends, right?". I told her it was about 500 liters of soil. I then made a quick mental calculation. We'll need about 12 squared meter of flooring, and the base is about half a meter deep. 6000 liters. Assuming soil is half as dense than water (it was while driving, so I couldn't look it up), you get 3 tons of soil. My instinct was off by a factor of 10, and her instinct was off by a factor of 1000.

This doesn't mean this is useless. Can you make this same calculation, off the top of your head, using imperial units? Metric does simplify things quite considerably. It's just that, specifically for volumes, that is a hard problem to solve.

Shachar

Re:Start here

[KGIII]

Unfortunately, in America, those without digital dashboards have the k/ph text in a much smaller font and on a much smaller scale making precision nearly impossible or, at best, difficult. Mandating the reverse would be a good idea but the number of old cars on the road means that's still a problem. It isn't an insurmountable problem but a problem nonetheless. I still, of course, support a complete switch to metric and (oddly enough, I am usually very opposed to any additional legislation with few exceptions, this being one of them) wouldn't mind it being federally mandated.

A part of me thinks it should be mandated just so I can hear the various sides howl like banshees at each other. Did I mention that I'm easily amused? My countrymen are straight up retarded for the most part and, unfortunately, that is bipartisan.

Anyhow, I think the simplest means of advocating the metric unit of measurement is this:

Using just your head, what is 16.2% of a meter?
Using just your head, what is 16.2% of a yard?

Simpler means fewer chances to have errors. As an American I can say, with complete certainty, that we need simplicity here.

Re:Start here

[KGIII]

That's funny. Also, don't forget drugs. Drugs have been teaching our kids the metric scale for quite some time.

Re:Start here

[GerryHattrick]

The older half of Britain is still non-metric. Supermarket near here sells milk printed '13% free' - 1 litre bottles sold for the price of 2 pints; wrong calculation! And we all know our cars' MPG, but can only buy in price-per-litre. Makes you wonder who won WWII.

Re: Start here

[mjwx]

Not to mention that the imperial system is also from europe :)

I'd also like to point out that the US is not even that advanced.

The Imperial system was first defined in Britain in 1824 (weights and measures act of 1824), well after the US's independence. The US is still on pre-imperial measurements called US customary units.

Re:Start here

[Darinbob]

Reagan said it was a waste of money, so the government spent a lot of money to take the signs down again.

Re:Start here

[Joce640k]

All you have to do is make the speed limit either 55mph or 100km/h (driver's choice...)

Pretty soon you'll have most of America swearing they were driving at 100km/h.

Re:Start here

[AmiMoJo]

There isn't any real need to replace your mile markers. Just add some KM markers or forget about them completely. Going metric does not mean obliterating all trace of Imperial measures.

Re:Start here

[zwarte piet]

The speed limit is the same everywhere: 299,792,458 metres per second.

Re:Start here

[AmiMoJo]

Metric is all base 10, and you can convert to any other base in a single step. A lot of Imperial fans say they like how you can divide 12 inches exactly by several factors, but in metric you can of course just use 120mm or 16mm or whatever random multiple you like to base your design on.

With Imperial each unit uses a different base. Feet are base 12, yards are base 3, miles are base 5,280 (or base 1,760 in yards). To do any conversion between units you have to do a base conversion.

Human beings naturally use base 10. Our languages are all based on base 10 naming for numbers.

Re:Start here

[Sique]

Russia and France?

After all, the metric system is a french idea, first codified 1790 at the French Academy of Science.

Re:Start here

[Sique]

C is not completely unrelated to metric in that 1 K means the same temperature difference than 1 Celsius.

Re:Start here

[jonbryce]

Ireland switched to Metric for road signs a few years back. Their speed limit signs say things like 50km/h with no mph on them. At the border with Northern Ireland, which still uses mph, there are signs facing into Ireland saying "Speed limits in mph", and into Northern Ireland saying "Speed limits in km/h"

Re:Start here

[dskoll]

Fahrenheit is quite useful when you are thinking in terms of human comfort and safety.

Really? Maybe it's because I grew up with only the metric system, but I have absolutely no feeling for fahrenheit. I know that 20 Celsius is a nice summer day, 15 is cool, and -30 is about as cold as it gets where I live. I wouldn't have a clue what "80" or "60" or "20" means in Fahrenheit.

It's all a matter of what you're used to. The US is one of the most conservative and reactionary societies on earth, so I expect it'll still be using Imperial units 50 years from now and probably still retain the penny when you need ten thousand of them to buy a loaf of bread.

Re:Start here

[DKlineburg]

I don't think I have an answer, but this is interesting to the discussion: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_limits_in_the_United_States

Re:Start here

[Richard Dick Head]

Si is a system of units. Abbreviation from SystÃfme international des unitÃf©s

Thankfully, Slashcode does allow HTML entities. HTMLTidy has an option for this (I have it bookmarked Notepad++) :D

è is è and é is é

Système international d'unités

Re:Start here

[arth1]

The church spreading to the North.
The rule that the noon prayer should be at the ninth hour from sunrise prevented the prayer from being held in the Northern countries whenever the day was too short to have nine hours.
It was moved to the sixth hour, then later, to meridian, and then the Catholic church finally abandoned the sun-based time keeping and set it at 12 PM.

Orthodox Jews and Muslims still have some logical problems with what to do as they approach the polar circles. Especially the letter abiding Jews whose faith dictates that the rules should be upheld even when they don't make sense, because that's how you prove faith, and you cannot substitute the intent of the law for the letter of the law. They have devices that disconnect the fridge light before the sabbath so you don't violate the sabbath laws by turning on the light, but they can't do much about when the sun rises and sets.

Re:Start here

[Chris Mattern]

Four teaspoons in a tablespoon.

All my cookbooks say that there's three teaspoons in a tablespoon.

Re: Start here

[EvanED]

Texas, and at some point soon, Nevada. Also apparently there's 80 in at least Utah.

The Spin was Awesome!

[Anonymous Coward]

How can you fight this idea, if it's all about multiculturalism in a bilingual country without receiving a negative label?

Re:The Spin was Awesome!

[Anonymous Coward]

Only a left wing extremist, America hating, Kenyan, terroristic, neo-communist, piece of scum like Obama would be pushing this hard for a multicultural approach to a system of measurement. I demand that my representatives in the House and Senate do everything they can to stop the President in this latest push to destroy what few remaining decent things remain in this once great nation. We should immediately adopt the metric system as a means to protest this naked grab for power by a mean spirited and hateful administration bent on the destruction of democracy and the last remnants of a Christian faith that sustain us. (We should also outlaw counting by base 12... just because.)

Re:The Spin was Awesome!

[smittyoneeach]

Well, given that this administration is about campaigning, not governance, it's clear that metric proponents need to recast themselves as a victim group, and start delivering some votes.
Strong possibilities include:

• Tying traditional measurements to Tradition, which is evil in the face of Holy Progress
• Pointing out that 'feet', 'yards', and 'miles' are associated with patriarchal oppression structures.
• And don't neglect the race card. Those units were implemented by white males, and are thus tinged with the scourge of slavery.

I'm having the vague feeling that I can't tell if I'm trolling here, or drafting notes for a Progressive strategy session.

Re:The Spin was Awesome!

[fustakrakich]

No, no, you're not trolling at all. You carry the 'white man's burden' with total aplomb and grace.

Re:The Spin was Awesome!

[peragrin]

I see your problem you think the president of the USA is actually a useful position. The president of the USA is actually the least powerful, least effective job in the USA.

The president doesn't make laws congress does, the president doesn't decide which laws are fair or balanced the judicial system does. The president doesn't even decide details of policy only vague generalities.

The president( i don't care which ones you like they all fall into this) can't make decisions. he can only choose between choices others make for him. he has three basic tools Force(military or civilian), Legal(lawyers), or Diplomatic(Negotations, etc) However he can't use force for anything but quick attacks or else congress must intervene. He can use legal but lawyers aren't useful for much. Diplomatic only works when the other party actually is willing to change.(that's why you can't negotiate with palenstine/isreal or the tea party, neither side can look at things from anyone else's view)

There is a reason why Presidents go into office looking healthy and come out Physically healthy but looking like they went through a meet grinder. Because they get all the blame, very little of the credit, and can actually change very little.

The president controls the price of oil about as much I do. The president controls the budget of the country about as much I do.

If your curious look up what the president is actually allowed to do in most cases all he can do is advise someone else to look into the problem and report back. Take the IRS scandal. I would be willing to bet the president knew about it a while ago. however he couldn't actually change the policies or punish people because congress ultimately controls those positions.

This true of every president they can at best suggest. whether or not they get listened to is another story.

Re:The Spin was Awesome!

[Anarchduke]

Outlaw base 12? Give me A good reasons!

The metric system is the tool of the devil!

[Anonymous Coward]

The metric system is the tool of the devil! My car gets 40 rods to the hogshead and that's the way I likes it.
----
The Simpsons, Abraham Simpson

Re:The metric system is the tool of the devil!

[jrmcferren]

Mod Parent +5 funny! Anyway as of the last time I was in my auto I was getting 532,224 rods per hogshead which is low compared to 544320. Of course I've been driving where the speed limit ranges from 27,200 furlongs per fortnight to 107,520 furlongs per fortnight. However when the school zone lights are flashing it is a piddly ass 40320 furlongs per fortnight even in a 107,520 furlongs per fortnight zone.

WTF is the administration supposed to do?

[Anonymous Coward]

The petition site isn't a method for legislative fiat. If you want the metric system adopted talk to your Congress person. The president can't force adoption of the metric system. Jesus, people, the president can't even enter bills into Congress and you want him to just pass the fucking law personally? You have representatives for that.

Makes perfect sense to me

[bokmann]

The country doesn't have a national language, despite the fact that the majority speak English... so why do we think the Federal government could just mandate metric? Hell, even if they tried, a bunch of angry southern congressman would probably cry 'states rights'. Thanks Obama.

The cooking channel, the car dealers, gas stations and everyone reading this response could start speaking metric tomorrow if they wanted too... about the only thing that would seem awkward on the green highway mile markers and speed limit signs... and we already largely ignore those...

If you think you care so much about metric, why can't you tell me how many liters per 100 km your car takes? Its *your* car... no one is stopping you.

Re:Makes perfect sense to me

[Chuckstar]

Agreed. Why is this response considered so "disappointing"?

Re:Makes perfect sense to me

[amiga3D]

They didn't like the response. They wanted a progressive answer and got a conservative one. I'm a little shocked myself.

Re:Makes perfect sense to me

[timmyf2371]

Why bother to convert though? The natural way to "speak a language" such as metric is to use it as your first language; not convert between the two.

Most car manufacturers publish fuel consumption figures in metric and imperial, so the natural way would be to know what your litres per 100 would be, and what this actually means in reality.

We have a weird situation here in the UK. All fuel is sold by the litre - but no one knows what litres per 100km means or how the cost of a litre of gas will affect them. We all refer to MPG and we know that a gallon is about 4.5x the cost of a litre (yes, our gallons have more litres than yours).

Re:Makes perfect sense to me

[Bob9113]

Here's the math that explains why you are wrong. When it comes to compatibility issues, like standards, it is easy for a laissez-faire system to get stuck on a local maxima. It is one of the primary reasons that a well regulated market can be a closer approximation of the theoretical ideal free market than can laissez-faire. This sort of problem is exactly why people institute governments.

Re:Makes perfect sense to me

[Strider-]

Where L/100km makes an infinite amount of sense is when comparing the fuel efficiency of different vehicles. What is better, upgrading a 35mpg car to 42mpg, or upgrading a 15mpg SUV to one that gets 20mpg? If we look at this in L/100km, it becomes pretty damned easy. The 35mpg car gets 6.72L/100km. Upgrading it to a car that gets 42mpg will mean you're now burning 5.6L/100km, saving approximately 1.1L for every 100km you travel. Conversely, the 15mpg SUV gets 15.68L/100km, while its 20mpg replacement burns 11.76L/100km, a savings of 3.92L for every 100km. So even in the first case, despite increasing your mileage by 7mpg, you're only saving 1.1L, while in the second case you're only increasing your milage by 5mpg, but saving 3.92L.

The fundamental reality here is that for most people, the only time they ever look at the fuel efficiency figures is when they're shopping for a new vehicle. Specifying the fuel usage in L/100km (or hell, Gallons/100mi) provides a much more accurate and useful comparison. The easy solution to your problem is to just publish a number for range. I know that my Jetta gets 725km per tank in city driving, and ~1000 or so in highway driving.

Re:Makes perfect sense to me

[Chris Mattern]

if a car has double the efficiency then the L/Km gets doubled. not the same is valid for mpg

If a car has double the efficiency, then the l/Km gets *halved*. Maybe we'd better just stick with mpg.

Re:Makes perfect sense to me

[AthanasiusKircher]

I agree that we should have L/100km (or gallons/100 miles) as well as km/L or MPG. However...

Where L/100km makes an infinite amount of sense is when comparing the fuel efficiency of different vehicles. What is better, upgrading a 35mpg car to 42mpg, or upgrading a 15mpg SUV to one that gets 20mpg?

No -- in this case, you're not "comparing the fuel efficiency of different vehicles." You're comparing the net gain by two different upgrades to two different vehicles.

In other words, there are at least FOUR vehicles involved in this comparison. I always hear this exact example trotted out whenever someone starts arguing for L/100km or gal/100mi, but I honestly wonder how common this particular problem is.

Let's look at the things that have to be true for this scenario to actually be relevant to a car shopper, with at least two vehicles (most shoppers don't even have two or more vehicles to consider upgrading to begin with):

• The shopper must have two vehicles, both of which he/she is somewhat unsatisfied with enough to consider changing at the same time.
• The old vehicles must have been used similar amounts and driven similar distances, and the shopper must plan to do the same with the new ones.
• The upgrade is optional for both vehicles (i.e., neither one is dying soon), or else the shopper wouldn't have a choice about which to upgrade.
• The shopper must be on a budget enough to restrict them to only one upgrade at once.
• The shopper's budget must also be flexible enough to allow an upgrade on either of the two vehicles, even though upgrade costs might vary significantly depending on the type/size/quality of both vehicles.
• The shopper plans to upgrade both vehicles to newer vehicles in a similar class (or at least which have similar fuel efficiency); otherwise, it's probably not really an actual "upgrade" comparison and differences could be reasonably apparent even with km/L or MPG.
• etc.

I just don't think these particular comparison scenarios are that likely. Even the idea that a shopper has two vehicles ready to upgrade, neither of which SHOULD be upgraded (because of age, condition, etc.), and both vehicles are driven the same distances all the time is just such a rare occurrence that I can't imagine such a comparison is actually useful that often.

When they do occur, most of them could be solved simply by knowing approximately that lower MPG or km/L vehicles are really inefficient and it usually makes sense to make any small improvement to a regularly used one can before worrying too much about more efficent vehicles.

The fundamental reality here is that for most people, the only time they ever look at the fuel efficiency figures is when they're shopping for a new vehicle.

Frankly, I don't think think anyone but diehard environmentalists or some sort of mechanics interested in optimization give a damn about actual "fuel efficiency" in the abstract.

Most people care about the practical impact on their driving. Measuring in L/100km or Gal/100mi is useful for people whose driving distances are relatively constant, like commuters who drive every day. They can clearly see by what percentage their fuel bill would go up or down for constant distance. Measuring in km/L or MPG is more useful for people whose gas budget is relatively constant and want to know how much farther they might be able to drive (whether to take a new job that would require a longer commute or because they plan to use the vehicle irregularly for trips or random drives).

Many people live on limited budgets, and for them, MPG or km/L will actually tell them how much farther their car can travel with their same fuel budget. That's useful information too.

Again, I personally think BOTH measurements should be displayed, if for no other reason than that L/100km and gal/100mi show how truly bad the wors

Re:Makes perfect sense to me

[Rockoon]

What is better, upgrading a 35mpg car to 42mpg, or upgrading a 15mpg SUV to one that gets 20mpg?

Why do you care? Either you have a 35mpg vehicle or you have a 15mpg vehicle.

It seems to me that the main reason to want to use something like L/100km is so that you can boast to your friends about how much greater your car upgrade was compared to their car upgrade. Get yourself some self-esteem and you wont suggest that the rest of the world has to conform to your chosen system so that you can belittle them.

Makes sense

[knotprawn]

Not yielding an inch, are they? Imagine the impact it would have on Subway.

Re:Makes sense

[Chris Mattern]

that use of the word "sandwich" is an Americanism too far.

Ah yes, the Earl of Sandwich was truly one of the great Americans, wasn't he?

Re:Makes sense

[GumphMaster]

You have also missed the point

The origin of words is often important, as are regional variations. I am assuming you realise that the Merriam-Webster is the quintessential American English dictionary. A quintessentially English English dictionary does not have the "or a split roll" addition to the definition (see also this one). My Macquarie English Dictionary (Australian English) dictionary reads: "1. two slices of bread (or toast) , plain or buttered, with a layer of meat, fish, cheese, or the like between. 2. something formed by similar combination." The term "Sub", traded so heavily by Subway is a contraction of Submarine sandwich which is claimed to be American in origin (along with quite a few US regional variations). While what Subway sell is a "sandwich" in arrangement that is not the term that much of the English speaking world would use outside of a Subway outlet: that is the point.

We used to have those.

[Molochi]

Be we decided that provinciality was a smaller sacrifice than the cost of the paint.

Really Already Metric

[iggymanz]

The Omnibus Foreign Trade and Competitiveness Act of 1988 amended the Metric Conversion Act of 1975 and stated the metric system was "the Preferred system of weights and measures for United States trade and commerce". Also said the federal government has a responsibility to assist industry and especially small business, as it voluntarily converts to the metric system .

Metric system is of course taught in U.S. schools, even since the early 70s (yes, I was there)

Re:Really Already Metric

[Chris Mattern]

stated the metric system was "the Preferred system of weights and measures for United States trade and commerce".

Which has absolutely no practical meaning as far as I can determine, unless you can cite some actual concrete consequences of this declaration.

Also said the federal government has a responsibility to assist industry and especially small business, as it voluntarily converts to the metric system

Which, once again, means what? Are there grants? Is the US offering any kind of money to anybody to help fund their conversion to metric?

Re:first

[Beerdood]

first

That must be a imperial first, not a metric first.

Re:both are bastardized.

[ShieldW0lf]

Frankly, decimal is kind of a cruddy system. It was a bad call in the first place to use base 10. Yeah, it's good for counting on your fingers, but it's only cleanly divisible by 1, 2, 5 and 10. Base 12 would have been a much better choice, it's cleanly divisible by 1, 2, 3, 4, 6 and 12.

I say we ditch metric, imperial and the decimal system as well.

no free choice for gov't info like speed limits

[mrvan]

I agree that no laws should be passed that force e.g. a supermarket to use specific weights or measures. If people are annoyed by the choice of a supermarket they can bring their business elsewhere.

However, the "free choice" argument does not work for monopoly players, especially the government itself. The last time I was in the US, miles were used in the interstate system to indicate both distances/exit numbers and maximum speeds. You can't choose to pick the other road that goes the same place but uses metric, because there is no real competition in the road network.

I don't know whether other official communication of the state(s) uses metric or not, I could imagine many laws and forms that refer to land area, volumes of water, weight (e.g. of cars) that could use either non-metric or metric. They can't hide behind a "free choice" argument there, and a real "bimetric" system requires the government to provide information, like speed limits, in both systems, just like a blingual government publishes laws etc. in two languages.

Re:no free choice for gov't info like speed limits

[camperdave]

No, you MUST have laws forcing supermarkets to use specific weights or measures. Otherwise, Shady-Joe's meat market could just shave down their scales and sell you 14 oz of beef instead of a full pound. This is the entire reason we have standardized weights and measures in the first place.

The White House has the right idea.

[Sydin]

Maybe before we rush to adopt the Metric system, we should stop to consider the consequences of blithely giving this measurement system such a central position in our lives.

Good

[chihowa]

I think that this is a perfectly adequate solution.

I'm a scientist and use metric for everything at work, but I can drive in miles and get groceries by the pound, too. It's really not that hard to effectively use both systems, and given time we can slowly move to using metric all of the time if we want. The most effective change happens so slowly that you can't pinpoint when exactly it happened. Since there's no urgency here, it will be fine if it takes another generation or so to fully transition.

Look at the progress we've made since the seventies. Today, anyone in science, engineering, medicine, the military, and many other fields are already proficient with both systems. There's no rush, so why not let it happen organically?

Re:English system is fine

[Anonymous Coward]

I actually think the English system is better for daily use, the measurement units seem more natural to me than the metric ones.

O_o

Natural for what? The only advantage the English system has is that lots of lazy-brained people are accustomed to it.

Re:Sure beats jail time...

[Anonymous Coward]

The UK mandates that things being sold have to provide metric units - they can provide other units as well if they wish. This actually makes a lot of sense, as it protects customers from misleading labelling. I could create my own units that at a glance will look similar and use those instead, giving customers less product for their money.

Re:Missing the Point?

[Antipater]

Not really, no. If you actually read what happened, the "metric mixup" was a contributing factor but not the critical factor, especially since the people knew it was off course and decided not to correct course. From the very article you linked:

The discrepancy between calculated and measured position, resulting in the discrepancy between desired and actual orbit insertion altitude, had been noticed earlier by at least two navigators, whose concerns were dismissed. A meeting of trajectory software engineers, trajectory software operators (navigators), propulsion engineers, and managers, was convened to consider the possibility of executing Trajectory Correction Maneuver-5, which was in the schedule. Attendees of the meeting recall an agreement to conduct TCM-5, but it was ultimately not done.

But "We mixed up feet and meters! Whoopsie!" while embarrassing, is not quite so embarrassing as "We canceled the scheduled maneuver that would have saved the ship, even though we knew something was very wrong." Plus, it was an easy headline for the media. There were a legion of problems with the Mars Climate Orbiter that had nothing to do with unit systems. NASA was just in full-on derp mode at that time. Likewise, the Mars Polar Lander, which did not have a similar unit-conversion error, also crashed a few months later.

Re:Sure beats jail time...

[moderators_are_w*nke]

The EU single market mandates that you must be able to buy and sell in metric, which is logical since you can't really have a common market without common units. You can also use whatever other units you like and as such many places use imperial units in preference to metric units, reverting to them only when necessary.

Road signs are still mph, horse races are still miles and furlongs and beer is sold by the pint so I think we're happily confused on matters of units this side of the pond.

Re:Cooking

[lisaparratt]

You mean the metric cup of 250ml, the metric tbsp of 15ml, and the metric tsp of 5ml?

Re:did one right

[tlhIngan]

It is rare for me to agree with the present administration but they got this one exactly right. In the UK merchants were punished for still using old weights and measures. I would really hate to see that here. Not our way.

Well, technically, when the old system of weights and measures ewnt out, you HAD to convert. Because otherwise it meant you were possibly ripping off people using an uncalibrated scale.

If you look at your gas pump or grocery pricing scale, you'll find a calibration sticker on them that tells you when the unit was last measured and approved for trade use.

It's why your bathroom scale says "not for trade use" on it - it's not calibrated and what it shows is not guaranteed.

And using an uncalibrated scale for trade is considered fraud - I'm sure you'll be pissed if the pump said you pumped in 10 gallons of gas, and in reality, it only pumped in 9, thus cheating you that gallon (and $3-4, depending on where you are). Or if you bought a pound of meat that really was 15oz instead.

In the UK, all they had to do was simply declare the imperial scales and uncalibrated (and only use metric calibration tools), at which point yes, the shop really was committing fraud.

Hell, we see it today - where a 4 litre bottle of milk gets shrunk to 3.79 litres (which conveniently, is a gallon).

Re:The right answer

[CohibaVancouver]

You ran a 10K? You're pretty fit.

You drank a whole 2 liter bottle of Coke? You fat bastard.

It's below zero - We might get snow.

It's 200K to Seattle? We'll, we're averaging 100 kph so we'll be there in a couple of hours.

Relating the conceivable to the perceivable

[Gothmolly]

The point of a system of measurement is to relate dimensions which are not directly perceivable to those which are. Thus, while you can't "see" a mile, you know that it's 5280 feet, the "foot" being related to some portion of the body (or some particular person's body). Likewise the inch, the yard, the fathom, etc. Using metric, while perhaps more "scientifically" determined, replaces one non-human, non-perceivable value with another. Instead of an imperceptible distance being some large multiple of an average person's foot size, it becomes some multiple of wavelengths of light, another imperceptible value.

Re:Relating the conceivable to the perceivable

[markdavis]

This doesn't fly for me. There is no human equivalent of an inch or mile or gallon or acre anymore than a kilometer or centimeter or liter or gram. The foot is about the only human thing about the imperial system, and that is not enough to matter all that much.

I was taught both systems in school and use both. Interestingly, I prefer cm/mm over inches and feet over meters; have no preference with gallons/qts vs. liters; prefer ml over fluid ounces, prefer grams over ounces but pounds over kg. How is THAT for confused. This is the result of the mess we have right now :)

Re:Relating the conceivable to the perceivable

[camperdave]

The Romans used to march around a lot, and they would measure things as they went. A mile is a thousand paces (ie left footfall to left footfall) and is derived from the Latin word for one thousand.

Re:both are bastardized.

[stud9920]

well, if it had been base twelve, it would have been divisible by 1, 2, 3, 4, 6 and 10

2x4

[DragonWriter]

Putting up a wall? We're gonna need some 2x4s and 4x8s

Which, incidentally, don't seem use American Customary units of length for those dimensions, but whacky industry units where 1" (board measure other than length) is approximately equal to 7/8" (US customary).

US and the Metric System

[the eric conspiracy]

The US is converting gradually to the metric system, and NIST towards that for decades. The definitions of official US units in metric terms was one of those steps.

A lot of things sold in the US are sold in metric containers, for example 2L soft drink containers, many food packages and so on.

The US has also been signatory to every metric measurement treaty.

The petition is really rather silly. Changing the measurement system of a nation is a long and slow process. Even the French had to put it aside for a while (Napolean discontinued the process for a while).

The real shame is the US didn't start this process sooner. Thomas Jefferson actually advocated a decimal system of measures well before the French adopted the metric system but Congress (setting an alarming precedent) failed to act on the proposal. Later Jefferson was successful in getting the US to use a decimal currency, which was the first of it's type in the world.

Is it in contemplation with the House of Representatives to arrange our measures and weights [the same as the coinage] in a decimal ratio? The facility which this would introduce into the vulgar arithmetic would, unquestionably, be soon and sensibly felt by the whole mass of the people, who would thereby be enabled to compute for themselves whatever they should have occasion to buy, to sell, or to measure, which the present complicated and difficult ratios place beyond their computation for the most part

--Thomas Jefferson

Re:US and the Metric System

[simonbp]

For many products, they have to change them anyways. For example, I just had a English beer (Fuller's ESB), and the entire back label is clearly different from the UK version, with the US-specific health warning, US state bottle deposits, and US importer's address. The fact that it also has the volume in fluid ounces is trivial compared to everything else they have to add.

The more productive thing to change machining standards. When a US engineering company receives an order from outside the US, they have to change everything to US units, do the engineering work in the US units that all the tool are calibrated to, and then convert back to metric to send the spec/blueprints/etc back to the customer. It's an unnecessary expense, and not really justified given how much the US industrial base has shrunk.

US not ready for globalization

[Anonymous Coward]

I am european mechanical engineer who worked and lived on 3 continents. The metric system is way superior than the imperial system in many ways but the most important is that it is used everywhere and it is a consistent system*. A lot of companies here in the US have switched to metric (at least for this reason), but soon when asian industrial power will swamp the US market with metric product and parts (in the same way that IKEA did) a lot people in this forum will be lost and realize that a dual system is completly stupid.

* if your not convince ask yourself why in a imperial system electrical power unit is Watt and but heat power it is in Btu/h....

Already is, but not official (and forced)

[mtippett]

Kind of like official language of the USA. There isn't one. Just like customary units, there are customary languages.

Metrification is already happening. Executive order http://www.osha.gov/dts/osta/otm/otm_x/otm_x_1.html. The Federal government has a preference, but it is only that.

The CIA World factbook has a snarky "At this time, only three countries - Burma, Liberia, and the US - have not adopted the International System of Units (SI, or metric system) as their official system of weights and measures. Although use of the metric system has been sanctioned by law in the US since 1866, it has been slow in displacing the American adaptation of the British Imperial System known as the US Customary System. The US is the only industrialized nation that does not mainly use the metric system in its commercial and standards activities, but there is increasing acceptance in science, medicine, government, and many sectors of industry."

Don't worry though, moving 300 million takes a hell of a long time - measured in generations. If you go to the store you will see lots of metric rounded numbers (drinks in 500 mls). Dates on the immigration forms have moved to ISO DD-MM-YYYY. Give it another 50 years, globalisation will take care of it.

Re:What were you expecting?

[Stormwatch]

Did you expect that the White House administration was going to somehow force businesses and residents of the US to start using metric?

Why not? With three exceptions, EVERY country in the world did it at some point.

Re:English system is fine

[vux984]

Most companies already label their products with both systems which is just fine.

Sure. I don't have a problem with seeing both units. But why not mandate metric be on there? The benefits are clear. What is the harm?

As for roadsigns, the cost would be far too great, and it wouldnt be worth it for what is basically a cosmetic change, and I think would actually make things worse,

It doesn't have to happen overnight. Start with the major highways, and do both units. Gradually filter it down to the other stuff, and in two generations its done. 4 generations down we can remove the mph if we want, or not.

I do not think metric is a better system in daily use.

The goal isn't to utterly eradicate the English system.

I also find the English miles unit size to be more natural, it may be because the English system developed out of practical use in daily applications

As a Canadian, I don't see this at all. The km vs the mile makes no 'natural' difference whatsoever.

I see pounds, feet, and inches being more natural, but not miles.

We are all very used the English system

You get used to whatever you live with. We order deli meat in 100gram increments, we buy milk by the liter, and a good size jar of peanut butter is a kilgram. We know -4 is just below freezing, and that 35 is hot. Its not difficult.

I still think of my own weight in pounds because all the media (TV, magazines, etc) all refer to weight still in pounds. But I know a few nurses etc and they have no trouble thinking in kilograms.

Recipes go either way; because a lot of them are old or from american sources english units are still common. My wife is pretty comfortable in cups or mL.

The only english units that I really think are more natural are feet and inches. But my brother in law works with CAD drawings all day and metal forming, and he can eyeball something in mm or m just fine; and finds it easier than inches or feet.

So my 'intuition' that its more natural is suspect. Its what I grew up with, and its what I'm more used to, but my pre-teen kids have barely been exposed to english units at all, and they live just fine.

If you live with it, you get used to it.

Is it worth converting a population over to metric? No, definitely not. They are used to it, and it works fine for them.

But is it worth gradually shifting a population to metric so that future generations are using metric natively, yes, I think so.

L/Km and MPG are BOTH stupid. And redundant.

[jeffb (2.718)]

(Distance in one unit) cubed over (distance in a completely different unit)? Come on, do the simple unit analysis and just give fuel efficiency in square meters.

Re:English system is fine

[Stormwatch]

No, zero Celsius is "too damn cold", zero Fahrenheit is HOLY SHIT HOW CAN A HUMAN BEING LIVE HERE.

It is a broken system

[Roger W Moore]

It would a frivolous waste of money we dont have to fix something thats not broken.

Ah but it is broken. For a start there is no agreed upon standard for several of the units e.g. fluid ounce for which the Imperial unit is not the same as the US unit which is then further compounded by the fact that there are 20 fluid ounces in a UK pint and only 16 in a US pint. As such it is a completely broken unit system you not only have to memorize an insane number of relationships between units you even have to remember whose imperial-based unit scheme you are using.

However, what makes it s truly broken unit system is that it uses the unit pound for both mass and weight. Yes there have been "hacks" of the system to bring them inline with physical reality so you have the "avoirdupois pound" meaning a mass and the "pound" meaning force. However this means that the units are not clear: when you say "pound" do you mean force or mass? If you need to tweak your unit system to make it consistent with physics that's not really a good sign is it?

If that's still not enough to convince you that there is a problem then consider that there are only three countries in the world still using the old imperial-based system: Liberia, Burma and the USA. There are not many things that practically the entire planet agree upon but apparent metric units is one of them and it is not without good reason!

Re:It is a broken system

[hawguy]

It would a frivolous waste of money we dont have to fix something thats not broken.

However, what makes it s truly broken unit system is that it uses the unit pound for both mass and weight. Yes there have been "hacks" of the system to bring them inline with physical reality so you have the "avoirdupois pound" meaning a mass and the "pound" meaning force. However this means that the units are not clear: when you say "pound" do you mean force or mass? If you need to tweak your unit system to make it consistent with physics that's not really a good sign is it?

Scientists already use the Metric system, and few people who live on earth and are not scientists need to make a distinction between weight and mass.

reference for those that missed it

[tokiko]

http://xkcd.com/1215/

No need for units

[mypalmike]

Given that relativity is well established, those signs should be unitless. Instead of 55 mph, just have them say 0.000000082.

Re:But your ass is going to jail if you have

[Stephen Chadfield]

Bob Marley

Re:Sure beats jail time...

[reve_etrange]

For example, every rice cooker. All those "6 cup" rice cookers on Amazon have their own "cup" which is about 2/3 of a regular, 8 fl. oz. cup.

costly and difficult to convert machine tools

[PhantomHarlock]

I have a machine shop in my garage, which includes a large mill and a lathe. Both have lead screws set to work in thousands of an inch, so one revolution of a handle is a certain subset of inches (.05) with individual tick marks at .001. It is essentially baked into the hardware, and you have to replace the feed wheel dials and lead screws to change it, among other things.

I purchase metal stock that comes in US units as well (1/2" bar stock for example) which corresponds to stock needed for drawings that give all their dimensions in inches. There is a cascading chain of things, all of which need to change.

You will not see me switching my shop to metric in my lifetime most likely.

Converting a large industrial economy over to metric has a lot of hidden costs that make it very difficult to do, because all valves, pipes, fittings, metal stock, screws etc. offerings have to be changed, and imperial parts need to be offered for many decades to come to service older equipment.

The idea itself is a good one as ultimately metric is a more scientifically advanced and clear set of standards than imperial. It's nice to work in a consistently matched base-10 for all scales.

In the case of smaller economies, it is easier to support the change due to much smaller scale and very small industrial base. New Zealand as a country switched over to metric in a single day, after much preparation.

Although the US auto industry has largely gone over to metric, I do not think that the rest of the US is currently in a position to swallow that pill easily. I believe that no matter how much ideologically it makes sense, that it is still political dynamite.

It would be nice if everyone taking up this topic had machine shop and fabrication experience so they would understand just how much it impacts the pipeline from raw stock to finished product. Politicians tend to think in abstracts and statistics and do not always consider all of the consequences. Most of the rest of the population is so far removed from it that they A. don't understand the entirety of the impact and B. as others have said would not benefit significantly from the change.

-PH

Re:costly and difficult to convert machine tools

[H0p313ss]

That's why you need a transition plan. Officially Canada went metric over 30 years ago, but you can still buy tools with Imperial measures and almost all our materials are sold in feet and inches because we share the worlds longest unprotected border with the Neathertals to the south who refuse to evolve.

Re:costly and difficult to convert machine tools

[Gimric]

I'd argue that small, industrialised economies had a higher cost per capita to change over to metric because some fixed costs are distributed over a smaller population. Australia changed over between 1970 and 1988, and the world didn't end and there weren't riots on the streets. I really think this is one way in which the USA is broken - nobody can agree on changing things so nothing gets changed, even when it would be better in the long term. That is not a good thing and contributes to a slow decline in competitiveness.

We still use imperial units when precision is not important, and where it is customary. We still talk about a person's height in feet, and talk about "mileage" even though we actually measure distances in kilometres.

What's all the whining about, just get it done.

[H0p313ss]

I lived in Canada before, during and after the transition.

Over 30 years later we're all wondering why you're all still whining like little bitches. We'd tell you but you might decide to invade our socialist paradise.

Re:What's all the whining about, just get it done.

[peawormsworth]

I was in the last class to be taught both metric and imperial measurements. We were the last students in Canada to ever be tested on knowing how many centimeters are in a foot and how a meter compares to a yard. I will confirm that learning metric was far easier then learning imperial. Especially when you need to resize units or multiply various units like calculating units of energy. It is an unfair burden on the children to force them to learn an outdated system of measure just to support the fears and misconceptions of the adults.

Free to choose

[PPH]

I'd like a car with a metric speedometer/odometer. The only version of the model I want equipped this way is the Euro spec one. The White House says I can have it. NHTSA, the EPA and my state's DOL can go f*ck themselves.

What the metri-nazis seem to forget

[DaveAtFraud]

What the metri-nazis seem to forget is that the English or Imperial system was in use for hundreds of years simply because it was convenient for the day-to-day measurements people needed to make. Most people never need to do unit conversions. They want their cup of coffee, their pound of sugar, their so many yards of cloth. They measure their waist and inseam in inches, They don't want 250ml of coffee, they want a cup of soffee. They don't want a half kilo of coffee beans; they want a pound of coffee.

You can bastardize the metric system by adding a "metric cup" (250ml) or a "metric pound" (half a kilo) but woe be to them that use a metric cup in a recipe that calls for a cup (English) of some ingredient. They aren't the same.

That being said, I need a pint of ale to get the metric taste out of my mouth.

Cheers,
Dave

Re:English?

[smash]

The second worst thing about non-metric systems is that the measure for a pound, a gallon, a foot, etc is not actually standardized between countries. Calling the US measurements "english" is a bit wrong, as an imperial gallon and a US gallon are two different amounts.

The worst thing obviously being insane conversions between different units of distance, volume, weight, etc.

We count/do maths in base 10. We have 10 digits. Our measurement system should reflect that. The rest of the world, and the scientific community get it.

DIN A4 is meaningful

[fritsd]

Different standards for paper sizes might be annoying, but it has nothing to do with "metric conversion".

That's incorrect: http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mgk25/iso-paper.html (read it; it's very informative!)

1 A0 sheet of paper has an area of 1 m^2, so if it is "normal" paper of 80 g / m^2 then the A0 sheet weighs 80g and the 8 A3 sheets you can cut from that without any paper loss weigh 10 g each, and each of the 16 "standard" A4 sheets you can cut from it again, without any paper loss weighs 5 g.
It's so perfect that probably aliens use the same ratio 1 : sqrt(2) on their paper :-)

Re: metrication is nobody's business

[Darinbob]

Mandating for industry would be an economic boon, since we'd be on the same standardized system as the entire world, and outer space. Keeping an isolationist perspective is damaging.