First Looks At Windows 8.1, Complete With 'Start' Button

Ars Technica has taken a look at Microsoft's newly released preview of Windows 8.1. As widely rumored, the point release features a clamored-for concession to Windows users who rankled at the loss of Windows' Start button in the taskbar. In addition to various tweaks to 8's search capabilities and icon presentation, says the article, "Some of Windows 8's obvious limitations are being lifted. In 8.1, Metro apps can be run on multiple monitors simultaneously. On any single monitor, more than two applications can be run simultaneously. Instead of Windows 8's fixed split, where one application gets 320 pixels and the other application gets the rest, the division between apps will be variable. It'll also be possible to have multiple windows from a single app so that, for example, two browser windows can be opened side-by-side." Similar reports on these changes at Wired, Engadget, and SlashCloud.

Comments

Not good enough

[JDG1980]

What most of us wanted back was the Start menu, not just the Start button. Microsoft still doesn't get it: We don't want to see or interact with Metro, at all. Ever. It has no place on the desktop.

Re:Not good enough

[mrsquid0]

What I really want on Windows is a Stop button.

Re:Not good enough

[Neil Hodges]

There's also the 'singular they'.

Re:Not good enough

[Striikerr]

Agreed. My company refuses to switch to Window 8. I suspect that Windows 7 will be the new Windows XP for years to come (if you need to run Windows in your environment, it will be Windows 7). The issue with Microsoft is that they went about this wrong. They forced significant changes upon users where changes were not really warranted. This is particularly a big issue in companies where users are accustomed to working on the same style of desktop etc. These are people that complain when an icon is moved on their desktop or get confused with minor changes to applications so a full UI overhaul in the corporate space was truly a bad idea and one which will cost Microsoft dearly in the years ahead. Giving options to use their new interface components is a better approach (one which Apple has taken with their desktop OS via the Launchpad which brings up pages of icons representing applications to launch, identical to their IOS devices). I understand that Microsoft sees the writing on the wall and that mobile devices and operating systems is the future source of revenue, but dumping these changes so suddenly upon the masses was a bad decision.

I've never been a fan of seeing the significant UI changes made each time a new version of Windows is released. I have worked on Windows servers for years and really hated the changes introduced with Server 2008. I still need to figure out where certain functions are when I have to work on a Windows server (I spend much more time on Linux servers now). I've heard similar complaints from friends who work in IT as well.

Re:Not good enough

[robably]

itself

Re:Not good enough

[Anonymous Coward]

BTW, is power off button still somewhere in Metro sidebar and its settings (well, since they didn't provide real start menu...)? How can that be considered ergonomic?

Re:Not good enough

[Anonymous Coward]

It doesn't object to being referred to as 'it', or it gets the hose again.

Re:Not good enough

[_xeno_]

What I really want on Windows is a Stop button.

Given how well hidden the "power" menu and logout button are in Windows 8, that might actually not be a bad idea...

(To restart your computer, open the Charms Bar, go to Settings, and then hit the Power menu to reveal the Restart and Shutdown options. To log out, something you used to do from the same menu you shutdown and rebooted from, instead you open the Start menu, and click on your user name to open a menu you'd never guess existed.)

Re:Not good enough

[ultrasawblade]

I'm testing Windows 8 for a company that is likely going to be wise enough to skip it. But I keep using it just to maintain familiarity with it.

Anyway, to sleep or shutdown, I've found it's easiest to just hit ctrl-alt-del and use the power button from there. It's what I've been telling people to do as well.

Of course, my old Windows key + R, "shutdown -r -t 0" habit is well entrenched and used a lot too, from rebooting machines over RDP.

Re:Not good enough

[Archangel Michael]

You're use of command line is strangely reminiscent of Unix. The very thing Windows was supposed to be better at, because one didn't have to know the command line to do common tasks. I guess nobody shuts computers down any more.

Re:Not good enough

[xeio87]

There's also clicking the desktop (if you're not already focused to it) and Alt+F4 opens a power menu. That shortcut works from Windows versions prior to 8 as well.

Re:Not good enough

[grantspassalan]

What does Windows 8 do for any user without a touchscreen that Windows 7 won't? As a matter of fact, much of what normal users do can also be done on XP. The way people interact with mobile touchscreen devices is fundamentally different than on an ordinary desktop or laptop computer. Apparently, Apple has understood this, but Microsoft has not yet figured it out. A Swiss Army knife might be fine for camping, but has no place in any kitchen especially one of a restaurant.

Re:Not good enough

[MightyYar]

That's actually a minor point for me. I don't really care if the Start Menu takes up 1/4, 1/2, or the whole screen. What I hated most, they addressed:
1. The way I launch apps and control panels is to hit the Windows key and then start typing the name. Win 8 broke this (except for apps). Now it works again!
2. You had to hunt all over the place to find settings. Some were in the "charms", some in the control panels. Now they have (almost?) everything in the charms.

I did not see whether they address the Metro apps just quitting by themselves when in the background, so I guess I will still just avoid running Metro apps. I would also like to shrink the size of the individual app buttons. Classic Shell is of course still an option. I still don't like all of the magic corners and gestures, but I've mostly learned those. Besides, if Windows was easy they'd be Apple - I'm very accustomed to struggling with MS products at first, it's a great custom that harkens back to the wonderful days of .ini files.

Re:Not good enough

[IANAAC]

... I guess nobody shuts computers down any more.

Probably right. Nobody I know shuts their systems down. I certainly don't shut down my Linux systems unless I have to (although I restart Gnome - or outright kill it - regularly). It's a low power laptop, though, using less than 60W. I suppose if it were a huge desktop machine eating up 500W of power, I'd shut it down when not in use.

Re:Not good enough

[GregC63]

ALT-F4 from the desktop gives you the power off/log off menu as well.

Re:Not good enough

[cyberchondriac]

Of course not...have you not heard the cries of, "But it takes too long!" or "I'm working on a project and I don't want to lose my place" when you suggest that they reboot to resolve a common hiccup?

It doesn't matter because you just broke the Internet; you spelled "lose" correctly.

Re:Not good enough

[CimmerianX]

Or just use the Free Tool, Ninite. Ninite will install the classic shell back to win8 and win server 2013 for free and it works just fine.

Re:Not good enough

[gstoddart]

Well, quite frankly, it does take too long ... and the "Windows Patch" (reboot and hope for the best) has always been a lousy response. It doesn't solve anything, just makes the problem go away for a while (if at all).

Some of us expect our machines to stay up longer, and depending on what you run, starting everything from scratch would take forever.

My 'normal' set of stuff on my personal desktop is 3 different web browsers (with multiple tabs in each), VMWare with two VMs, iTunes, the software to sync my phone, and sometimes the software to sync my Tom Tom. That's what's open every single day, all day long. My work computer is similarly running with a whole bunch of stuff that I use several times/hour and if I had to open and close them every time I used them, it would waste half my friggin' day.

For those of us who are used to machines with uptimes in the hundreds of days range, the suggestion to reboot is the sign of a lazy and incompetent admin, or shitty software.

Re:Not good enough

[JDG1980]

Word from inside the company is that Sinofsky made the devs "p4 obliterate" the Start menu code, meaning not only did they delete it but they wiped the entire history of the code from their source control. If true, it would mean that they couldn't just "bring back" the start menu, they'd have to entirely rewrite it.

I hadn't heard about that particular bit of stupidity; what possible business justification could there be for it? He deserved to be fired for that alone. Still, it's really not a big deal. If multiple third parties can implement reasonably good facsimiles of the Start menu in as short a time frame as they did, Microsoft shouldn't have any trouble. Heck, they could buy the rights to Start8 out of pocket change and merge it with their source tree.

Re:Not good enough

[Jane Q. Public]

"I understand that Microsoft sees the writing on the wall and that mobile devices and operating systems is the future source of revenue, but dumping these changes so suddenly upon the masses was a bad decision."

Suddenly has nothing to do with it. People didn't want these changes at all.

While it may be true that mobile will be the future of most computing, Microsoft and other OS vendors (I'm looking at you Apple, and Ubuntu while we're at it) NEED to understand these things:

(1) The desktop isn't going away anytime soon. Especially for power-users like developers, who -- like it or not -- are the OS makers' bread and butter. The OS is only as good as what it will run... and how well. Recent "dumbing down" of the desktop is just plain dumb.

(2) The desktop is not just a larger mobile device. There are significant and important differences, and nobody wants a desktop to have the significant and severe limitations of today's mobile devices.

(3) Change for the sake of change is very seldom a good idea. Things were the way they were through years of effort and trial-and-error, to get things to work properly. Simply tossing all that aside for something new is A Bad Idea, unless it's a significant improvement. The changes in Windows 8 were NOT "significant improvements". If they were, people would like it.

Re:Not good enough

[Junta]

I did not see whether they address the Metro apps just quitting by themselves when in the background

I'd be exceptionally surprised if they change this. That was an intentional design goal with a lot of effort in it. It's infuriating as it is bringing over one of the worst aspects of android and ios, piss poor multitasking. The thinking being that 'task management' is scary and if an app developer goes through some hoops, they should be able to restore state if killed. In practice, developers are too lazy to properly handle that use case and a task switch away and back might get you back where you were or it might start the application over without any persisted state depending on the effort of the developer and hard to predict decisions by the platform whether to suspend it or kill it.

The major goal, of course, to automatically guess what the user would want and 'save' them from having to close apps when memory is in short supply. The 'SIGSTOP' in background is annoying enough, but is marginally more defensible in the name of saving power.

Re:Not good enough

[TheLink]

With all those billions of dollars and thousands of smart people why couldn't Microsoft have actually helped us with something like this:
http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/29001/

Or this:
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/156693

Instead they come up with Metro...

Re:Not good enough

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, that sounds like a plan, Chucky. I'll just crawl under my desk every time I want to turn my PC off.

Were you Microsoft apologists dropped as children, or just well-paid now?

Re:Not good enough

[the_humeister]

I installed classic shell. Now I have all the benefits of Windows 8 (eg, faster internals, hyper-v, multi language display/input) and the start menu back. power off, restart, logout are all there.

Re:Not good enough

[westlake]

What most of us wanted back was the Start menu, not just the Start button.

Not here.

The Start menu quickly becomes cramped, unreadable and unmanageable. I have left it behind and I am not going back.

Re:Not good enough

[gstoddart]

spoken like a true enduser

Spoken like a true moron -- I'm the freakin' admin, and I spent 15+ years as a developer. If I have it open, it's because I use it constantly.

This is the stuff I use to do my job, and rebooting because someone has no idea of what's going on but thinks a reboot will make the problem go away has always been a stupid idea.

Usually it's some idiot doing tech support who knows far less than I do who is suggesting it. Just because some half-wit at the service desk has that as the first item on his checklist doesn't make it the right choice.

Re:Not good enough

[Culture20]

Shutting down via command line when using RDP is the fastest method; otherwise you get into fights with the UI (and some versions of Windows don't give you a GUI option to reboot if logged in via RDP):
Are you sure you want to reboot?
Yes.
There are other people logged in.
I said Yes! That "other person" is my non-admin account!
Please state the reason for the reboot:
Operating System reconfiguration.
Application Foo not responding to close request. Shutdown canceled.
#$^*@!

shutdown /r /t 0 /f just reboots immediately, no stupid questions asked

Re:Not good enough

[omnichad]

Try Win+I. That brings up a power option on the right.

Re:Not good enough

[Culture20]

"They" is actually accepted as singular in modern English (not just slang).

But it shouldn't be, because people use it in confusing ways.

In addition to that, most people object to being called "it".

In English, "it" is used to denote gender neutrality or ambiguity, but mostly refers to non-human things. Babies are an exception, and are often referred to as "it" if their gender is not known.

Re:Not good enough

[0racle]

Just FYI - The Remote Management tools for Windows Server 2012 ONLY run on Windows 8.

It would seem MS thought of a way to get at least some people in enterprise environments to upgrade to Windows 8, PowerShell uptake among Windows admins has been disgustingly slow.

Re:Not good enough

[CaptSlaq]

spoken like a true enduser

Spoken like a true moron -- I'm the freakin' admin, and I spent 15+ years as a developer. If I have it open, it's because I use it constantly.

This is the stuff I use to do my job, and rebooting because someone has no idea of what's going on but thinks a reboot will make the problem go away has always been a stupid idea.

Usually it's some idiot doing tech support who knows far less than I do who is suggesting it. Just because some half-wit at the service desk has that as the first item on his checklist doesn't make it the right choice.

You are speaking as a developer, not someone who has come through the support ranks.

As someone who *has* up from support, your opinion is, quite frankly, ludicrous: Support often doesn't get the documentation to sort out what could be causing stupid problem [x], because "that doesn't happen in our test environment...", which often doesn't reflect the reality of a machine that someone actually *uses*.

Computers do stupid things, often caused by poor decisions from someone that uses them. Software does stupid things, often caused by poor decisions from someone that wrote it. Dumping on tier 1 support because they don't have sufficient tools or information to understand the entire scope of what they've been asked to support is not helping solve the overall problem of "all software has bugs" or "software companies don't do sufficient [x] for their support reps", where [x] is any combination of the following: documentation, training, testing, tool provisioning.

If all of the steps were done right for everything (support who knows what they're doing, with sufficient tools to support software that is properly tested and well documented), I'd agree: Rebooting is the hail mary of a tech that doesn't want to fix the problem. In my experience, very few, if any of those are true. This goes doubly for the desktop OS stuff I've had to support.

Re:Not good enough

[MightyMartian]

No shit! These "improvements" do little more than make what seemed like Windows 2 or Presentation Manager act like Windows 3. I want the old desktop interface back. I don't give a fuck about Metro, and from everything I can tell, no one else does either.

Re:Not good enough

[MightyMartian]

Yes, but at least in the enterprise, downgrade rights will be around for a while, so whether Windows 8 ships with a unit or not, it seems likely to me that most businesses will be pushing out Windows 7 anyways.

Re:Not good enough

[gsgriffin]

On my desktop, yes. On my Surface and my kids convertibles with touch displays, no. The Metro and the use of the tablets/laptop/computer makes a lot more sense. Before throwing out the baby with the bathwater, get yourself a Surface or convertible and spend some time using it for what it was really designed for....the bridge between tablet/phone and computer. As fewer and fewer people are buying desktops anymore, this operating system is the first attempt to marry tablet with laptop in functionality.

I hate it on my desktop (won't install it). I like it and it works well on my Surface.

Re:Not good enough

[rahvin112]

Windows 8 has some rather significant under the hood improvements. In particular the handling of SSD's is significantly improved as well as things like Task manager. It would be an outstanding improvement had they not tried to do this stupid forced metro BS.

Re:Not good enough

[citizenr]

Oh, you are doing it wrong. You should use new powerful Search function instead, just search for shutdown.exe !

Re:Not good enough

[lgw]

The singular "you" gained acceptance when people realized the double benefit of having a simpler language and of not being pretentious dickbags.

No, not really. English used to be like most languages in having both a familiar and a formal second person pronoun. Thou/thee was used to express familiarity, intimacy, or insult. "You" was the formal third person pronoun, both singular and plural.

Around Shakespeare's time, the more formal "you" began to dominate out of over-politeness - effectively "being pretentious dickbags" was the goal. People would avoid "thou" because it might give offense, which meant it was more often used insultingly, and that feedback continued until no one used "thou". "Dost thou 'thou' me thou dog?"

Re:Not good enough

[fast turtle]

An hour for sleep in a business setting? That's too fucking long. It should be 10 minutes at the most. Forget the fucking screensaver and simply go to sleep. Much better power savings then. On my linux system, I have it set to sleep in 10 minutes. Long enough that it's not annoying, short enough to do some damn good. Only problem I have is I have to hit the power button to wake it up as even the USB goes to sleep unlike windows.

Re:Not good enough

[vux984]

Windows used to be highly customizable, but Win8 virtually eliminates this.

You couldn't put the old start button in the middle of the taskbar, or resize it in windows 7, and you still can't in 8. You could change it's colors when it popped up, change what's pinned on it and the order of some of things, and you can do all that with the new one too.

You are seriously overstating the case.

. Partly it's due to marketing and partly due to evil "UI experts" who believe one size should fit all and that options are bad.

Its mostly its due to the fact that windows wants the core operating system to be operable by touch.

And behond that the UI guys were right. The old start menu was stupid. A small non-resizable POPUP window containing a huge deep heirarchy of folders is beyond poor.

There ARE a few widgets and functions that the start menu did well. Most of them are more than adequately served by defining a toolbar.

The ONLY thing missing from windows 8 is a good small desktop search box. That's it. That's pretty much the entirety of the "travesty" of the windows 8 start menu debacle.

There's a few other complaints...such as hot corners, but really its nowhere near as bad as somple people have made out.

What Microsoft should be doing on the desktop is making the whole thing skinnable and customizable with XAML

I disagree. If you want to do that, Linux has more window managers and widgets and effects to choose from than you'll ever want. After you play around with them for a few years (because it will take that long to just try most of them out with any sort of depth), while you may find a setup that fits you like a glove you'll come to see its drawbacks too... not least that it took you a few years.

Then there is also the issue that documentation is impossible to write, and support is impossible to provide, things break unexpectedly, and so on. And that the users least qualified to completely reskin their system are the ones most likely to have done it. My mother in law downloaded something that made her pc sort of resemble OSX (new icon sets, cursors, backgrounds, task bar layout, etc I'm sure you've seen them out there); she was lost beyond hope, and couldn't even figure out how to undo it. She was able to limp along a bit could still read her email and browse the web... until she bought a new printer. Can you imagine what the support call to the poor saps at HP would have been like? :p

That's when I got involved, cleaned it out, restored it to default and suggested she not customize it.

Two weeks later she'd replaced all her cursors and had custom sounds effects that she couldn't figure out how to get rid of.

End result: user blames Windows for being terrible.

Re:Not good enough

[tompaulco]

It actually works for people who don't use a junk OS.
I'm sure it does, but we are referring to Windows 8.

Re:Not good enough

[Angeret]

Yeah, that's what I really want to do. Instead of click-click-walk away, I can type in something to find something to tell my PC to shut down. Cool. Can I also search for programs that might not have the name I think they do so I can run them also? That's much easier than click-click-running.

Christ, we may as well go back to DOS with a bespoke GUI for each & every program program!

Re:Not good enough

[Darinbob]

You can still get Windows 7 on new PCs.

And yes, you're right that most will have Windows 8. However when someone asks "what's good about Windows 8" the answer should not be "you're forced to use it".

Re:Not good enough

[N0Man74]

What most of us wanted back was the Start menu, not just the Start button. Microsoft still doesn't get it: We don't want to see or interact with Metro, at all. Ever. It has no place on the desktop.

From mainstream users, I expect complaints about the Start menu, but I find it surprising how many people in a more technically inclined audience like Slashdot complain about this. I find the Start Screen to be mostly functionally equivalent,with a few exceptions, to a Start Menu.

I tend to use the mouse as little as possible and use many shortcut keys. In the parts of the interface that I use the most, it's been either equivalent or more keyboard friendly than Windows 7.

There are annoyances, sure. The Start Screen File Search (Win+F) only searches in your User Folders for File Names, but completely ignores Folder Names (unless they are added to your start screen or made into a Library). Opening the Context menu on the Start Screen shows several options, but there are no Shortcut keys to select them. Shutdown ('nuff said). Losing Subfolders from the old Start Menu. The items in the Start Screen don't allow for editing properties (like the old Start Menu shortcuts) in order to add parameters and such. I don't like the Windows 8 style apps.

And my single biggest Gripe... No longer being able to hit "Alt+F" to open a File Menu, you must "Alt, F" (2 strokes). (I swear, that drives me bonkers the most and I've never heard anyone complain about that...)

But most of those are less frequent interface interactions. Sure, there were some bad design choices, and there were a few features that were inexplicably removed, but there were actually numerous improvements too.

I HATE the ribbon interface in Office, but I think it works well in Explorer. Explorer's File searching is more user-friendly than Windows 7, and no longer requires you to use non-obvious search terms that only power users will be familiar with. Making the Start Screen to be more about what you want to use and how you use them, rather than everything you have installed (use "All Apps" for that). I use the new Win+X key all the time. Many tools and utilities were substantially improved.

Anyway, yes there are things that annoy me about it, and I understand if some people don't like it, but I feel like much of the criticism is very biased, hyperbolic, and/or misinformation.

Re:Not good enough

[aix tom]

As a person doing ~20 years of admin, develpment and tech support I say *when* something goes pear-shaped in your Windows session *at that moment* the only thing that can be done to quickly fix it *at that moment* is a reboot. (Or, in case of a terminal server, often only a re-login is sufficient)

Only when you have pinpointed 2-3 recurring instances of a specific thing going reproducibly wrong under specific circumstances does an admin or help-desk even have the chance of figuring something out the technical root cause. Even now, where I am in the "help-desk heaven" situation of doing in-house second level support support where I can connect to every user session pull up event-logs, see user processes, see all client and server log files of all applications, etc... (so can get a much clearer picture of "what is going on" than a person who only can talk to the user on the phone) when a user calls with a "Windows Mystery"* the decision has to be made by the user if he needs to work with his Windows session again in 5-15 minutes (reboot/relogin) or if he has the time to "leave his windows session open for us to investigate possible root causes", which takes about at least 2-3 hours most of the time.

Of course first level support is mostly about making the problem go away for now, not about fixing the root cause. To fix the root cause you will definitely need to reach some higher level in support, best with a reproducible test case of the problem happening.

*Our current "Windows Mystery" at work: sometimes (1-2 times a week with ~1500 users working each day) the "Cursor up" key in Outlook stops working. Restarting Outlook doesn't fix it, re-login does.

Re:Not good enough

[TangoMargarine]

A) Standby still uses watts.
B) Shutting down your computer regularly can help you notice an impending hard drive failure before it completely dies instead of rebooting one day, for the first time in 2 years, and your drive is bricked.

Re:Not good enough

[cbhacking]

Things Win8 does that Win7 doesn't (out of the box):
  * Mount ISOs.
  * Include anti-virus.
  * Sync settings and bookmarks across systems.
  * Allow you to access Exchange servers (through ActiveSync, not just IMAP/POP3).
  * Let you launch things like Command Prompt as Admin with two clicks from anywhere (right-click on Start button / Win+X menu).
  * Automate the process of reinstalling the OS while preserving your files.
  * Powerful virtualization (Client Hyper-V, though it's disabled by default).
  * A more informative and more powerful Task Manager.
  * Smaller memory footprint (page combining).
  * Improved scheduling support for the latest AMD processors.
  * Improved multi-monitor support (wallpaper spanning, taskbar spanning, icons showing on specific taskbars, etc.)
  * First-party PDF reader. ... lots more, but that's a good start. Every version of Windows - even the much-reviled ME - has introduced new features that no previous version had. Without going into "Metro" at all except for the built-in email and Reader apps (which are fully usable without a touchscreen, as all Metro apps are required to be), I've given you a non-exhaustive list of Win8 advantages for non-touchscreen users. It's not that hard to find them; just actually use the OS (even without a touchscreen and staying almost entirely on the desktop) for a while.

How to save your company

[Sparticus789]

Give users the option to use your terrible Metro interface or have a standard Start menu. What's so hard about that?

Re:How to save your company

[Thud457]

Doesn't everybody all use touchscreens? That's all we're using?

Remember these are the same super-geniuses that think you need a desktop interface and a mouse/monitor/keyboard to run a server. Now you'll need a touchscreen too.

Re:How to save your company

[Sparticus789]

I am scared to think how terrible a remote server connection sending touchscreen data back and forth would be. I will be having nightmares for the next week. Or I will continue to use Linux servers.

Re:How to save your company

[bkmoore]

Remember these are the same super-geniuses that think you need a desktop interface and a mouse/monitor/keyboard to run a server. Now you'll need a touchscreen too.

That's called design by marketing.

Re:How to save your company

[JaredOfEuropa]

Hard? Most of MS probably realise that it doesn't make sense to force a tablet UI on desktop users; the hard part is convincing the decision makers. This is probably just a few idiots convincing a handful of other idiots to follow a bad strategy. "Mobile computing is the future, we need to focus our UI design on that" + "We need to consolidate our UIs, give our users a unified experience" = Metro on the desktop fail strategy. And once something becomes a strategy it can be incredibly hard to change course, even if it leads straight off a cliff.

Re:How to save your company

[Sperbels]

Remember these are the same super-geniuses that think you need a desktop interface and a mouse/monitor/keyboard to run a server. Now you'll need a touchscreen too.

And a Kinect maybe.

Re:How to save your company

[anthony_greer]

You are incorrect, Please look at Server Core, Power Shell and other tech in Server that lets you run it GUIless and more UNIX like...Your insuts are based on Windows 2000/2003 products, times changed.

Re:How to save your company

[h4rr4r]

Only since 2008, might have even not been until R2 came out. Which is quite recently in the grand scheme of things.

Re:How to save your company

[gmuslera]

The best way to use Windows without windows is not to use Windows.

Re:How to save your company

[JDG1980]

Part of this is due to Microsoft's marketing department (they want to force people into Metro so they can get a cut of app sales), but another part is due to the arrogance of modern UI "experts". Received wisdom in the UI design fields is that you should never give users a choice, it just confuses them. Come up with one method that is simple enough for everyone to understand, then force everyone to use it. We will have to beat back these idiots if we ever want to have workable desktops again. Note that they have infected Ubuntu as well.

side-by-side

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow, windows side-by-side! Adjustable, even! Soon they'll come up with dragable frames around each app. Plus, they added a Start menu. I can't contain my joy at this innovation.

Re:side-by-side

[maugle]

The technology of 1995, today!

Really?

[gstoddart]

Metro apps can be run on multiple monitors simultaneously. On any single monitor, more than two applications can be run simultaneously. Instead of Windows 8's fixed split, where one application gets 320 pixels and the other application gets the rest, the division between apps will be variable. It'll also be possible to have multiple windows from a single app so that, for example, two browser windows can be opened side-by-side.

I haven't seen Windows 8 yet, but if this is what they've built, I'm not surprised people have been avoiding it.

Wow, more than two applications running on any single monitor, welcome to X Windows from 30 years ago.

Was the interface really that broken?? This doesn't even sound like it's a usable environment.

Re:Really?

[JDG1980]

Was the interface really that broken?? This doesn't even sound like it's a usable environment.

The Metro interface is basically a mediocre clone of the iOS/Android interface. It's OK for tablets and smartphones, but an absurd joke on the desktop.

Re:Really?

[Anonymous Coward]

Those are only for Metro apps. I've been using Win8 at home for a while, and frankly it feels just like 7 now. My main use for the start menu on 7 was to open it and start typing the name of the app that I wanted. The Start screen in 8 functions the same way, only I hit the Windows key on my keyboard instead, which is faster anyway. Methinks the start screen is just a highly visible rallying point for people to whine about Windows.

Re:Really?

[Anonymous Coward]

How can they even call that "Windows"?

At least take out the plural. "Microsoft Window 8"

Re:Really?

[socrplayr813]

That's referring to the 'Metro' touch screen style apps. Desktop apps still work the same as they always did.

Basically, yes, it's broken, but more because it's harder to get to the old config screens and such that you're used to. Once you're set up, it's not that different.

Re:Really?

[Xest]

To be fair it's not quite that bad - this only applies to Metro apps written for the Metro interface, you can still access the same old desktop you always accessed and run Windowed applications there.

The problem is that the start menu has been replaced with the metro interface, so when you hit the windows key it fires up the metro interface and if all you want is say the calculator, then yes, it takes up the full screen, which is obviously stupid, because who the fuck ever wanted a 24" full screen 1080p simple calculator rather than the classic calc in a simple window?

A lot of the old apps are still there, windows key + r then typing calc.exe and enter will run the old one still IIRC, but that makes it about as user friendly as Linux :p

So you do still have flexible windows as you always have, the problem is Microsoft seems to not want you to use them and tries to force you towards the new Metro fixed width full screen completely-fucking-useless versions of applications instead.

Re:Really?

[bobbied]

It's *not* the same in many cases. Double click to open something and you are likely to be dropped in to a single screen metro app by default. Everything they do is pushing you to the metro "One screen, One app" interface which is NUTS... I am accustom to running multiple windows on multiple displays, the IDE running a compile over there, a word document that has the software requirements, Outlook showing me the latest E-mail from the boss and a browser window open to some technical documentation I'm referencing. Metro simply junk for that kind of work.

I'll bet this design looks GREAT on power point slides and glossy marketing brochures. Something like this is absolutely necessary for a cell phone, but it is junk for how I use my desktop, and it's not about missing "start" but about how the whole interface works. Metro makes sense to a resource constrained touch screen device like a small tablet or phone, but it is hugely frustrating on a desk top with a mouse. Forget to redefine all the default apps to not use metro and you will end up having it take over the whole screen and then it takes time, mouse clicks/key strokes to get back to the desktop. All this takes time and productivity suffers.

Microsoft would be well advised to make metro an OPTIONAL opt in interface for all desktops, or at least for the professional versions. I get why they want to have this, but shesh....

Re:Really?

[Vanderhoth]

Using more than one computer to achieve multiple windows is cheating.

No start menu, and lots of monopolistic tie-ins

[jbernardo]

So, Microsoft brings back the start button but forgets the start menu. Looks like something done just to shut up the complaints, instead of listening to their users and delivering what they really wanted. Of course, they can't be seen backtracking and admitting that TIFKAM is as much of a success in the desktop as it is on smartphones...

To that, we have all the extensive integration with bing and skydrive which could/should be considered another abuse of a monopoly position. Personally, both of the services are worthless to me, but if could replace them with Google, and dropbox/copy/google drive, like I can do in android, then it might be useful. In fact, an Android style approach might get Microsoft out of monopoly abuse...

Re:No start menu, and lots of monopolistic tie-ins

[JDG1980]

To that, we have all the extensive integration with bing and skydrive which could/should be considered another abuse of a monopoly position.

I doubt most of Microsoft's corporate customers are thrilled with the idea of "cloud" garbage which they don't control being built into the OS by default. Hopefully the SkyDrive crap can at least be turned off through group policy.

Re:No start menu, and lots of monopolistic tie-ins

[JDG1980]

Windows is still an effective monopoly on the desktop. They are lagging in the phone and tablet markets, and are trying to exploit their desktop monopoly to grab market share there. This is the core of the problem. What they're doing is morally wrong, should be illegal, and is terrible from a user experience perspective.

If you don't like metro...

[Toreo asesino]

...don't use any Metro apps. You're not forced to, apart from some initial app-pinning perhaps. Apart from that you can happily live in Windows 8, enjoy the extra speed and UI enhancements and never see metro again. Happy days!

Re:If you don't like metro...

[MBGMorden]

Except that this new "Start" menu takes you into the Metro start screen.

Staying out of Metro would be a lot easier if Microsoft gave us back the ACTUAL start menu.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[Toreo asesino]

2 options: if you're a heavy start-menu user for some reason, there's plenty of OSS packages to revive the old menu. Like really, in less than 60 seconds you can have it back. Second option; pin programs to the start bar or desktop. Neither one is a big deal and against this small downside (for some) you have smaller memory footprint & a faster OS on almost all metrics. I find it incredible that self-confessed geeks have such an issue with this very small speed-bump that actually benefits many others who use it.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[socrplayr813]

...don't use any Metro apps. You're not forced to, apart from some initial app-pinning perhaps. Apart from that you can happily live in Windows 8, enjoy the extra speed and UI enhancements and never see metro again. Happy days!

While I think it's idiotic that we have to do this, he's right. I set up my laptop in this manner and it's not really that bad. The ability to arrange my icons (to proper desktop apps) in the start screen is actually nice and it does feel markedly faster.

My only real complaints since getting it set up are:
1. I still have to stop and think to remember how to restart the thing.
2. Changing settings can be a nightmare since many things point you to the metro config apps instead of a proper control panel, etc. Once you get used to how to access the old config windows, this is manageable.

So... it's bearable to use it day to day, especially since I mostly just use the laptop for web browsing or to kill a little time with a game. I could tolerate working on it, but I think I'd put Debian or Mint on there if I really wanted to get things done.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[SJHillman]

In the time it took you to think up, type and submit the above post, you could have installed any of a dozen excellent start menu replacements (most are free). You can choose everything from Win 7 Start menu clones to entirely new and innovative designs with lots of options. Most of them include an option to boot directly to the desktop.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[Windowser]

third option : move to a better/faster/more secure OS : OSX or Linux.

I find it incredible that a self-confessed geek is having an issue with people pointing at Microsoft's HUGE mistake.

Why is it so hard for them to NOT FORCE US into their Metro crap ?

Re:If you don't like metro...

[ausrob]

Really? You find it incredible that self-confessed geeks would have a problem with being forced by a Microsoft design decision into losing what some people seem to consider to be fairly core usability functionality, which has existed harmoniously for over 15 years?

It's beside the point that OSS solutions exist - it's the principal of the matter. What's so hard to understand that people might not like having changes like this forced upon them? Some people may prefer not having to using third party code to restore this functionality, while others may not be able to apply OSS options because they lack the ability to update their standard operating environment (e.g. corporations, government workstations etc).

One of the major points of difference between Microsoft operating systems and others is that in most cases power users have the ability to heavily customize the Windows operating system (and other Microsoft products) without necessarily having to resort to third party code. What's so difficult to understand about that?

Re:If you don't like metro...

[Windowser]

"Hmmm my favourite OS start menu has been modified in ways I don't entirely appreciate; better move all my apps and data to another OS entirely" - said no-one ever.

If you think that the only problem with Win8 is the start menu, you must be using only one app at a time.
Windows 8 doesn't bring any new things you can do, but it removes a lot of things could do in the past (like use 2 windows side by side).
So keep following MS direction like the nice little sheep they want you to be. I'll keep using whatever I want to go in the direction I want.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[DoctorBit]

Because if users aren't forced to use Metro, then developers won't have to develop Metro apps, and then Microsoft won't have many apps available for download to their unpopular Windows Phone. Microsoft is trying to use its desktop OS monopoly to muscle into the relatively new phone market.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[JDG1980]

That's not the point. I shouldn't have to resort to third-party hacks to get core functionality that should be in the main OS, and was in the OS before Steve Ballmer started wishing he was Steve Jobs.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[Toreo asesino]

WinKey+D and you're back to Windows 7. Or a single-click from the start-menu. Or in 8.1 you won't even have to do that.

Don't like the start-menu? Don't use it then - in seconds you've got your old menu back. Also Win8 noticeably uses less memory than 7; the shell upgrades are nice and frankly if you're stuck at "this isn't working as I want it to" then you should hand your geek-badge in because really....this isn't difficult. There's some nice things in Windows 8, but yes, some things have moved around too.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[GReaToaK_2000]

Here's the thing.
Metro UI sucks just as much as the window system Ubuntu and many other linux distributions have 'glommed' onto. It's all Mac like and I personally don't like it.

I preferred the windows 7 design. Oh and the whole "it's (win8) smaller and faster" is crap! I finally got windows 7 installed on my hp 2000 notebook and that was tough because hp didn't want me to do it, but they finally "allowed my downgrade". Now my notebook is fast and awesome!

I like my windowed layout. I have my applications laid out a certain way when coding and I hate the way Metro UI fights you at every step of the way to do this. They want to force you to have one app visible at a time. They started this on Linux with Gnome3, which is why it sucks so much. I can't stand the layout there either.

The only way I even remotely get what I want (in the linux realm) is to use CentOS. Not even fedora is good anymore.

I don't know who came up with it or why but it sucks.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[Luckyo]

The problem is that this is obviously not working. At all. And as that strategy unravels, they have to start handling the fallout from throwing their desktop OS under the bus to save the phone one.

Hence, these moves. They want to see how much of a lifeline from desktop to metro they can keep going before people start rejecting their metro on desktop.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[linebackn]

there's plenty of OSS packages to revive the old menu. Like really, in less than 60 seconds you can have it back.

Which is great for a few personal machines that are under your control, but when you have to deal with larger numbers of machines, or machines that are not under your control, installing third party software or making significant changes to system options is not feasible. In fact, you can easily get in to big trouble for doing so.

A proper "start" menu is something a large number of people need and expect from Microsoft Windows. So it doesn't it make sense to include one by default?

Now, if only they had removed Internet Explorer instead of the Start menu...

Re:If you don't like metro...

[GodInHell]

Windows 8 doesn't bring any new things you can do, but it removes a lot of things could do in the past (like use 2 windows side by side).

This statement contradicts reality in a way I find both amusing and disturbing. Have you /used/ the Win8 desktop?

Re:If you don't like metro...

[socrplayr813]

Implicitly commanding the OS to shutdown is kind of a 90's thing to do to be honest

I wouldn't go so far as to say it's a 90s thing, but you're right that it's not usually necessary. 95% of the time, I just close the lid and let it hibernate (it takes approximately 1 second longer to resume from hibernate than from sleep - they really did improve things nicely on that front).

That said, I'm hardly a luddite that can't be arsed to learn things. The shut down and restart stuff mostly comes from updates or from my incessant fiddling. I'm constantly trying new software and experimenting with better ways to set up my gadgets and I find Microsoft's placement of the shutdown commands idiotic. People, especially averages joes, should not have to learn new key combinations or swipe/hot corner to access something so common. By all means, include those as options if you like, but it should be in plain view. When my most common support question is 'how do I shut down?', that's just sad.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[ausrob]

Did you actually read my comment?

Re:If you don't like metro...

[Gertlex]

Maybe you have a like to a trustworthy one? Downloading random executables to add something the OS manufacturer should have included is a poor substitute.

I'll go ahead and recommend Classic Shell. It's nerd-gasm-ly customizable. It's even worth using on Windows 7, too.

http://www.classicshell.net/

Re:If you don't like metro...

[Windowser]

frankly if you're stuck at "this isn't working as I want it to" then you should hand your geek-badge in because really....this isn't difficult.

Frankly, if you can't grab the concept of "I need to make it work the way I want, and not how MS marketing dep wants it to work", I guess you don't have a geek-badge to hand-off.
I've used EVERY windows version since version 1, and Win8 is the first version ever that I can't stand.
I've now moved to Linux with KDE, where I can actually make it work the way I want. And believe it or not, I can actually have more than one window open at the same time !
So keep using your toy OS and I will keep using mine that actually tries really hard to not be in my way while I work.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[Joce640k]

What's a "WinKey"? I don't think my model M has one of those.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[Stormwatch]

Why is it so hard for them to NOT FORCE US into their Metro crap ?

I think Microsoft really bet the farm on the Surface. With tablets outselling PCs, they think it's the future. This crap is part of the gamble.

See, they had been advocating the "tablet PC" since the XP days, with no success. Suddenly the iPad was huge, and they think: "We were right all along, people want tablets. We just have to push for ours harder." Well, fine. But their idea is that putting the same interface everywhere will get people to go for whatever system with which they are familiar. Gee, then why was no one interested when they did those awful tablets with XP?

The system itself was the problem, twice: as they just put a full desktop OS on a portable, not a slim one like Palm or Newton, the hardware had to be a full notebook PC with some touch junk tacked on. So it was expensive, heavy, and ran hot. Now, the Surface remains expensive, but it is light and runs cool enough, right? But the other problem was the fact that XP's interface was not adequate for tablets. So this time they are smart enough create this new interface, purportedly good for tablets. Meaning it is no longer adequate for the desktop. And they put it there anyway. Same mistake, only backwards.

And how did that familiarity thing work? Well, they changed everything, so nobody was familiar with Windows 8 anyway!

Apple knew better: different devices need different interfaces.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[ConceptJunkie]

The problem with Windows these days is that everything they change about has an immediately obvious reason as to why the change will benefit Microsoft (or at least they hope it will) and often has little or no benefit to the customer. Metro? It serves no purpose other than to try to create a market of apps from which MS can skim 30% off the top like Apple. Metro also allows MS to do less work because it can be used across different platforms, despite only being (ostensibly) appropriate for a small fraction of them. Microsoft has always tried to work towards the goal of one gargantuan monolithic OS that runs on all hardware, despite the fact that that has never been a good design strategy and probably never will be. Apple never fell into this trap and Linux succeeds by being a rock-solid incredibly flexible _kernel_ but not foisting a massive and bloated application layer on everything from a phone to a supercomputer. I can appreciate that Microsoft wants to maintain their revenue while having to do as little work as possible, but that seems to be the only thing criterion driving any of their designs any more. The business of propping up the monopoly they created in the 80s and early 90s is running out of steam. Some day, they might realize it.

Re:If you don't like metro...

[21mhz]

Man, how did it get so bad that a poorly designed clusterfuck of a menu is considered core OS functionality.

It's always been rather striking..

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

I can never quite shake the dissonance associated with the fact that the OS called 'Windows' has always had fairly shit window management and now seems hellbent on making it worse(Gosh, why wouldn't a UI designed for 10' or smaller touch-tablets be a bad idea on a dual-head desktop? I sure can't think of any reasons...)

Re:It's always been rather striking..

[UnknowingFool]

I suspect it's not dissonance as much as stubbornness. I think the master plan has been to get all their Windows desktop users to use Metro by force so that they'll be familiar with it when they buy tablets and smartphones. With the latest revolt, they are not retreating but falling back to a second position.

Re:It's always been rather striking..

[splutty]

You have a 10' tablet? WOW!

How do you work with that, some sort of full body contact thing? Twister based?

Or more along the lines of Dance Dance Revolution?

I can see it now: Man I'm tired, I've been entering stuff in Excel 2018 all day, my legs hurt!

(Sorry, I couldn't resist ;)

Complete with 'Start' button

[hcs_$reboot]

That's a relief. To shutdown, users had to " Mouse to Top right > Settings > Shutdown ". Soon they'll be back to "click Start" to "Shutdown" - and whatever you think of that, that's even more intuitive and consistent that the "new" metro style...

Re:Complete with 'Start' button

[jeffclay]

No, it'll be click "Start" > click "Settings" > click "Shutdown". They've added a Start button, not the Start menu.

Re:Complete with 'Start' button

[operagost]

That's not enough changes! It's not a new version unless they've arbitrarily renamed everything! It should be called a "My Start" button, and "Settings" should be "Configuration", and "Shutdown" should be "Damn memory leaks again".

Re:Complete with 'Start' button

[Cassini2]

From a design review: "I don't like pressing Start to stop things. There should be two buttons: Start and Stop. Where would you get the idea that pressing Start to Stop was a good idea? (looks at down computer) Oh, from Windows, ..."

Non-obvious stop functions are a bad idea, and this becomes very obvious when dealing with expensive and dangerous machinery. Many safety standard bans require obvious stop buttons. Critical functions should be obvious and easy. When the stop button is non-obvious, it probably means other problems exist with the design too.

Metro should be able to run in a window on the

[Joe_Dragon]

Metro should be able to run in a window on the desktop

Re:Metro should be able to run in a window on the

[wiggles]

THIS.

Metro should have been put inside of Explorer, as an optional component, not the other way around. Alternatively, detect if there's a mouse or touchscreen present - and if there's a touchscreen, launch Metro, and if there's a mouse, launch Explorer.

4", 10", 21"

[tepples]

Part of the problem is that tablet makers have taken a UI designed for 4" phones and shoved it onto 10" tablets. Why can't most tablets run two or three phone apps side by side?

1 min fix

[Anonymous Coward]

So they just pinned a shortcut to the metro start menu to the task bar. Wonderful. Does it break replacements like classic shell as an added bonus?

Why bother, Win7 is fine

[Gothmolly]

Why bother upgrading?

Re:Why bother, Win7 is fine

[anthony_greer]

Because win 7 will wont last for ever and glass touch screens are not a good replacement for mouse and keyboard in many office job types of work.

You're all gonna hate me

[kannibal_klown]

People are going to hate me, but I kind of dig Windows 8.

Part of this may be due to having a touch-pad input device and a 27" monitor @1440 resolution.

Don't get me wrong... I think it's BEYOND stupid how they've hidden the "Shutdown / Restart" functionality. And I think they should make Metro and the new start menu optional because some people were obviously going to not like it (for valid reasons). Kind of like how Glass was optional in Windows. And there are a lot of down-sides in general.

But I like the new start menu. Since Windows XP/7/whatever I've like the condensed start menu with my commonly used apps with the option to expand out to the full list. Click once for the condensed list, twice for the full list, or search for what you want. Which is exactly what Win 8 does, only the lists take up the full screen and searching is one more click than before.

Obviously there are a bunch of down-sides: low info density, highly GPU intensive, etc. But I like it. I think the new UI is different, which is good. We've been using the same interface since Win95.

Meanwhile, on the desktop side, I like the various changes they made to the desk-top aspects. The ribbon on Explorer, though some of my friends hate it. The new Task Manager. etc.

Ultimately, you can't really fault someone for "liking" something. Some people like Britney Spears, some people hate her music.

But I'm sure either way, this post will get modded down to oblivion.

Re:You're all gonna hate me

[linebackn]

I think the new UI is different, which is good. We've been using the same interface since Win95.

Changing things for the sake of change is not good. I see you are still speaking English? Why don't you start using that "new" Esperanto instead? If you don't, then you are doing things the oooooooolllllld way.

The Windows 95/NT 4 user interface, was - unlike Windows 8's - well researched, very solid, and very usable. Most of its "flaws" came from application developers not using it right (such as cluttered Windows 3.1 style program groups in the Start menu)

easy enough to do

[RobertLTux]

if you create a batch file with
shutdown /s /t 0
as the contents you can even give it a nifty Stopsign icon

please be aware [color=red][style=blinking]THIS WILL BE AN IMMEDIATE SHUTDOWN NO WARNING[/color][/style]

if you want a warning set /t to say 30

full details at http://pcsupport.about.com/od/commandlinereference/p/shutdown-command.htm

Re:easy enough to do

[Luckyo]

In power management settings. Just set power button press to shut down the machine. Or hibernate, like I have it set to.

Re:easy enough to do

[omnichad]

You're right. DOS couldn't multi-task, so if you have a blinking cursor at a command prompt you know the disk isn't in use. I'm not sure how that's a great thing.

Re:easy enough to do

[jones_supa]

As a sidenote though, if you were using SmartDrive (Microsoft's disk caching utility), it was recommended to command "smartdrv /c" before powering off to ensure that the buffer was flushed.

A start button and a Nanny cam

[Trax3001BBS]

"We also added the ability to take pictures with the built-in camera right from the Lock screen without having to log in."

This is a XboxOne feature, the video and microphone will always be on so it can greet you when you walk into a room or able
to take voice commands. The privacy issues should be obvious for a company like Microsoft.
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2013-05-24/news/ct-met-kass-0524-20130524_1_drone-attacks-xbox-one-jeff-henshaw

Multiple, resizable Windows - Wow!

[Necron69]

It's like 1991 all over again. Do I have to install Trumpet WinSOCK to connect to my ISP?

Seriously, it feels like Microsoft has forgotten why they called the damn OS 'Windows' in the first place.

At work, we just finally upgraded to Windows 7 a few months ago. Microsoft still has plenty of time to fix more things before IT even considers Win8.

- Necron69

and then they broke it even worse

[slashmydots]

"In Windows 8.1, the Search charm will provide global search results powered by Bing in a rich, simple-to-read, aggregated view of many content sources (the web, apps, files, SkyDrive, actions you can take) to provide the best “answer” for your query."

So Windows Vista had a passive indexer that killed your hard drive speed and didn't include system settings like "screen saver" as results. Windows 7 indexed locations in realtime and included system settings and was absolutely flawless. Windows 8 split it into 3 vague categories so you have to click multiple times to find what you're looking for and the prompt you start typing in is actually far off the screen completely to the right. You have to just know it's there. 8.1 arrives and now we get a possibly re-combined search but then you get web results from a search engine that nobody wants to use. Yay! I know when I'm looking for my resume, I definitely want to sort through a billion bullshit Bing web results about resumes before finding my resume.doc file. What a pathetic attempt to force people to use a garbage service. I hope Europe sues their asses off. This alone is going to force me to keep boycotting Windows 8 and 8.1 at my computer repair and sales store.

Re:and then they broke it even worse

[pscottdv]

Oh! The Dog! Don't get me started on the Dog!

I don't know why, but I have rarely felt more frustration than the hundreds of times I have told search to "turn off animation" for clients and then be forced to wait through an animation of the animation being turned off. It's like Microsoft just HAS to get the last word in. You don't like our animation? Well here's a little more of what you JUST TOLD US YOU DON'T LIKE! What're you going to do about it?

Microsoft doesn't get it

[houbou]

My Windows 7 is configured to look pretty much like Windows 98.

I disable of all these shadows, nice borders, etc. Why?

Because it's not necessary and takes away from your PC's resources.

In Performance Options all I keep are Smooth Edges of screen fonts and Smooth scroll list boxes. The rest is just fluff.

I even disable all the desktop backgrounds.

And Windows 8 or 8.1 should offer the same capabilities.

The use of a PC isn't and shouldn't be the same experience as that of a mobile device.

And it's not like I don't have resources I have an Alienware with 16 GB of RAM.

But I work with my PC and I use it extensively and I would rather have more performance on my PhotoShop or NetBeans.

I don't use a PC because I want to have fun, I use it for productivity.

And IF I do want to have fun, it's not the bloody OS that is going to amuse me, but the games I can play on it.

So even for the same of games, a lean and optimized installation and configuration of Windows is always best.

Windows 8 has much more flaws than Start Menu

[Zarhan]

We've just been handed out workstations with Windows 8 in them. My productivity has plummeted. Lots of really small things.

Start menu isn't one of them, not really. Classic Shell is available and works most of the time. However, there are lots of small snags, that individually wouldn't matter, but since they are *all* present I'm really avoiding the use of the new WS at all costs.

1) The desktop interface doesn't allow for proper, colored themes. I've been able to patch things somewhat with UXPatcher from http://www.syssel.net/hoefs/software_uxtheme.php?lang=en and an appropriate theme from Deviantart, but I still think it's ugly. I cannot customize colors anymore, the title bar text is ALWAYS black.
2) Title bar text is centered. I know that it's centered on e.g. Mac OSX, but it's not been centered in Windows since Win 3.1. I have lost lots of working hours simply because I've alt-tabbed, and my typical quick glance at the top left of window doesn't give me confirmation that I'm at the correct window causes problems. At least, it takes time for me to move my face to center of each title bar. At worst, it leads to lost work - I've already once started to configure wrong server.
3) Application associations are to Metro apps by default.When clicking a file on the desktop, why the hell does Windows think I want to launch a Metro app?
4) At some point I somehow managed to launch the Finances application. Suddendly my screen is full of stock tickers. I don't know how to close it. Alt+f4 doesn't work. Esc doesn't work. Finally, Win+D seemed to work. I still don't know why that app started.
5) Most of the desktop effects that seemed to work fine in Win7 doesn't work with my RDP client from Linux machine (krdc). Sometimes I can't even see the pointer (taking cursor shadows off seem to help)
6) It's slow. Reboot seems to take like 5 minutes.

I'm not particularly worried though. On the desktop, Windows 7 will stay prevalent for ages.

However, on the server side, Windows Server 2012 has similar problems in it's UI (well, no Metro, but...)

Re:Windows 8 has much more flaws than Start Menu

[kannibal_klown]

Really, 5minute reboot?

Sounds like a config problem on your end, like some 3rd party patcher software or some software running that doesn't want to quit (which I've seen in Windows 7 as well). I'm running 3 Windows 8 machines and reboot does not take long at all. A cold-boot is insanely fast, and a reboot isn't that much slower.

As for title bar colors, using the glass-y type of interface I change them just fine. Though it's all-or-nothing; I don't know if you're trying to make app A have orange while app B is blue in which case... no idea.

The real insanity.....

[whoever57]

Metro interface on Windows server 2012.

Win8.1 reminds me of the Blackberry Storm

[Gordo_1]

Anyone remember that phone? That's the one where Blackberry (RIM) decided to get in on the touchscreen craze by building a phone that tried to bridge the gap for users who preferred physical keyboards. In response to physical keyboard users who clamored for tactile feedback, they made the whole screen click when you pressed hard enough.

At the time, I thought to myself, "no, you idiots, an entire screen that clicks doesn't provide the same tactile feedback as individually raised keys that click under your fingers. What were you guys thinking when you came up with this partial solution to the wrong problem?"

This time around, I'm thinking to myself (and the Slashdot community), "no, you idiots, adding a start icon to the desktop so that users can get to Metro doesn't address the underlying problem that Metro is not appropriate on non-touchscreen desktop PCs. What were you guys thinking when you came up with this partial solution to the wrong problem?"

Why, oh why

[drolli]

Windows 7 was a real step forward. A true sucesssor to XP. BTW. XP is still a perfectly fine OS. It runs fine with less than 2GB of HD and 256MB of ram (in a VM) and just works. Unless something forces me to use windows 8, i will switch to WIndows 7 when the XP support runs out an hope that 8 will be a lesson on what customers want in the same way Vista (shuffle features in the users back which are *just not ready*) or Windows 2000 (too little, too late) was.

Re:What users want

[smash]

Yeah, but what microsoft want is to force metro on desktop users so they can use that leverage to break into the mobile market. What YOU and I want is irrelevant.

Re:No Aero?

[smash]

They're trying to kill the classic UI so no, don't expect shiny there. Expect that the be gradually crippled and made to look worse than metro, which they are betting the farm on. In true microsoft tradition they are attempting to use influence in one market to open another (get people used to metro on desktop and they may buy a metro tablet)....

sudo apt-get install xubuntu-desktop

[tepples]

Metro UI sucks just as much as the window system Ubuntu and many other linux distributions have 'glommed' onto. It's all Mac like and I personally don't like it. [...] The only way I even remotely get what I want (in the linux realm) is to use CentOS.

My solution to the Un(usabil)ity that Ubuntu 11.10 forced on me was to switch to Xfce. In Ubuntu, it's as easy as connecting to the Internet and running sudo apt-get install xubuntu-desktop.

No start menu = FAIL.

[gestalt_n_pepper]

WTF is wrong with the Microsoft staff? Difficulty finding own rear end with flashlight and a map? Nose in front of face just too darned elusive?

I honest-to-god read some tripe from a Microsoftie that said (and I paraphrase), "We hear that people want the start button back and we're trying to understand what they mean by that."

Oh. God.

We had a menu system that worked for years. It's used by Apple, Linux, et. al. to good effect. It provided useful, meaningful, heirarchical prompts to make up for the weaknesses in human memory. It did not need change or improvement. Indeed, it would be hard to see how you would improve on it from a human factors standpoint.

So, start button without the menu. I can only stand back in astonishment and repeat WTF!

Did I read that right?

[wcrowe]

"On any single monitor, more than two applications can be run simultaneously."

Uhh, did I read that right? Is this Windows 8.1 or 2.1?

Re:Hopefully Metro will replace old UI's

[pscottdv]

Douglas Adams predicted this. He predicted that everything would become gesture controlled and then we would have to sit maddeningly still in order to listen to the radio without changing stations.

Re:More than good enough

[WaffleMonster]

And this is why Windows will never catch up. And why eventually it will fade away as our generation grows old and leaves the workforce.

How can Microsoft innovate if what "most of us" want is the same old thing? It feels a bit like the educators who were fighting computers in the classroom in the 1980s and insisted that students only learn on manual typewriters.

Its not about what your used to it is about what behavior is sane and what is insane. It is about making determinations based on MERIT.

I suspect you'll find covering the entire workspace just to launch an application or find a document just as nonsensical in the stoneage as it is in the spaceage. I don't much care what that interface *looks* like but it has to be sane and not obleterate all onscreen context in the process.

Simply making the classic change adverse argument is an exercise in making non-falsifiable statements. If the next version of windows is an abacus and I replayed your "change adverse" statement would it be any different? What it convey and more or less information? Without merit without discussing actual tradeoffs what information is being conveyed?

assure you that Microsoft spend millions of dollars on various iterations and on studies for usability testing. But that so many people rejected it even though if it can be scientifically proven to be better (through a repeatable study, that's how science works),

The real issue seems to me to be for years there are a lot of people who own computers only to check email and facebook and now they have more options that are a better fit for what they actually do...good for them...but these people while a huge group are not the entire constellation of those using computers. There are people who still need a sane UI environment to get shit done complete with programs encased in movable frames...goddamn I feel like such a dinosaur saying that.

I also disagree that this is about "science"... it was more about leveraging windows to help windows phone to improve market share in other areas. There is no technical reason they couldn't provide knobs to make everyone happy. They chose not to for political reasons as evidenced by shit they took away during early betas of W8.

Metro is about locking down the computing environment (You can't install a metro app yourself...you can only install a metro app from the MS mothership...oh I'm sorry that is such a dated term...I mean the future of all computing..."the cloud"...

Fads come and go ... this isn't an improvement or a reflection of "the future" or a better way... it is a POS forced upon the world for political reasons to make MS more money. A boiling frog on the road to the promised land of vendor locked down computation...our future...where a few control basically everything...like apple does with the iphone and google with everything else...

MS is finally realizing they left way too much value on the table in previous versions of windows and is now hard at work fixing that.

MSFT is being quite arrogant

[MTEK]

Vista was supposed to be their New Coke moment and Win7 made it look like they cared. For many business and power users, however, Windows 8 is like an out of left-field can of dog shit. And so the good news is that Microsoft has been listening to our feedback and a new flavor of shit is around the corner?

Re:Not everything runs on Mac or Linux

[Vanderhoth]

recognizing that replacing their current computer with a Mac or a PC that supports Linux isn't the best choice for everyone.

Although I tend to agree with this, I also feel that if Windows 8 is causing such a hassle, as been described all over the interwebs, it's probably going to save you a lot more headaches in the long run. Learning Windows 8 is pretty much learning a new OS for a lot of people and if you're going to have to learn something new you might as well learn something that's free, not going to lock you down (like with Win RT) and will work the way you want.

Most apps people think they need windows for will run in WINE or have equivalent free versions. I made the switch shortly before Win 7 was release. I had XP on a new laptop, which had a free upgrade to Vista, which completely buggered the whole thing. I used the Win 7 developer preview until they revoked it and decided to give Linux a try. I had dabbled in various distros before that, but never made the change because I was always going back to windows to run something because I knew how and it was convenient. There were some significant challenges learning Linux when I first made the switch, but there isn't anything now that I can't do on my home Linux machines that I can't do on my work machine, I use windows at work because that's what the company mandates.

Since I've made the switch everyone I use to provide windows support to, (in-laws, wife, parents, siblings and several less technical friends) has also switched with no issues. I'm actually starting to feel a little lonely, I haven't been asked for help in a few months. In stead I keep hearing about how well things are working.

So getting back to the point. Based on my insignificant anecdotal experiences switching to Linux (I've set everyone up with Ubuntu, although I use both Ubuntu and Linux Mint) can actually be easier for a lot of people than switching to Windows 8.

If it takes 5 minutes to reboot...

[Sycraft-fu]

Your system has a problem. I have 8 on a few systems (what with being a Windows sysadmin) and none take near that long. My home system takes 20ish seconds, but it is a SSD with UEFI boot which makes it pretty speedy. My desktop at work takes about 40 seconds, the VMs take about 60 seconds. This is time form me hitting restart until the login screen is displayed.

So, in the event you are continuing to use Windows 8, or even if you aren't, you really should troubleshoot that system because it isn't the OS that is related to the boot time. It boots fairly quickly in most situations, and really quickly when given new hardware (since it can UEFI boot).

Re:power users, feh!

[Darinbob]

There's also the main issue that all of these options are not obvious. This is not an early version of Linux intended only for power users. Windows was intended to be for lots of users including the technically incompetent. Navigating to the charms bar is not obvious, and that's easier than getting from there to the shutdown options. Trying to discover Windows+Key commands is just beyond the capacity for many users. Whereas start menu was easy, you just tell grandma "click here for everything".