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Montreal Union Wants a Camera On Every Policeman's Uniform

An anonymous reader writes "The Montreal Policemen's Brotherhood is proposing that officers be equipped with uniform-mounted cameras that can be used to record various interactions. The union says in other jurisdictions where police officers are equipped with point-of-view cameras, the use of force by officers and assaults on officers drops by as much as 60%. One system is currently being tested in Edmonton, Alberta."

320 comments

  1. ok by radiumsoup · · Score: 4, Funny

    ...facing which way?

    1. Re:ok by sosume · · Score: 1

      One on each shoulder should easily give a 270 angle of view. Add a third in the neck collar and we can start working towards our robot policemen overlords.

    2. Re:ok by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      With video on the fly, it could prove embarrassing to the officers.

    3. Re:ok by radiumsoup · · Score: 4, Interesting

      my point was perhaps too subtle... the purpose was to acknowledge the ubiquity of mobile video recording devices and the utility they provide while pointing out the apparent change from the traditional "don't film me while I'm working" attitude of most modern police forces. As long as the camera is actively recording the actions of the police, this would be a step forward in ensuring police are better controlled to work within the law. But it only works if they are ALL required to be recorded while on duty. No more double standards with them being allowed to record the public but the public not being allowed to record them.

    4. Re:ok by Nerdfest · · Score: 4, Funny

      I though you were implying that because they speak French that it might be better to aim the cameras behind them.

    5. Re:ok by BrokenHalo · · Score: 4, Funny

      Presumably because they fart in your general direction?

      About time they stamped out this police brutality.

    6. Re:ok by AchilleTalon · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The reason behind the embedded cameras on policemen has nothing to do with a better control of their work. It has to do with the fact that in the past months, many embarrassing videos by people using their mobile device to record the scene where released and these videos are not always telling the whole story. So, the policemen themselves prefer to wear and record the scene they are involved in, in case such a video is released they will be able to tell the whole story to the public. Of course, if it is found the policeman himself is not having a proper conduct, it will also be easier to management to assess it and act accordingly. But the main goal is to protect policemen against street videos recorded with mobile device that do not tell the whole story about a particular event.

      --
      Achille Talon
      Hop!
    7. Re:ok by noh8rz10 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I'm ok with the idea of putting cameras on cops as long as citizens can record cops too, or like in britain if people can get copies of the footage. then it is a good thing.

    8. Re:ok by zrelativity · · Score: 5, Insightful
      OK, like in UK, where surveillance cameras suddenly fail to operate when its convenient to the police.

      I'm all for the video cameras on the police, provide the camera is "sealed" from tampering and the police are compelled to produce the video evidence else the prosecution fails and the courts charges the police for contempt.

    9. Re:ok by moderatorrater · · Score: 2

      I think that's the point, but it can also prove the opposite. Full honesty and a good record will help both sides.

    10. Re:ok by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      it might be better to aim the cameras behind them.

      Presumably because they fart in your general direction?

      So, y'all are suggesting they use the cameras to cover their asses? Will they feed directly to the internet? New police comedy, Moon over Montreal .

    11. Re:ok by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Perhaps, but in most of the videos I've seen, the officers is beating somebody who is on the ground, defenseless, and not in a position to resist significantly. While, yes, videos can be taken out of context, there is rarely justification for many of the things cops have been caught doing that additional footage would provide.

      I do welcome the additional cameras and hope they will be deployed in such a way that they are always rolling and can't be selectively turned on/off.

    12. Re:ok by jklovanc · · Score: 1

      The issue is that the video didn't show the previous couple minutes where the police had the suspect on the ground and the suspect broke away and started fighting again or had bitten, scratched, kneed, etc officers as they were trying to cuff him. Videos that show only the end of a confrontation are usually hiding something.

      I do welcome the additional cameras and hope they will be deployed in such a way that they are always rolling and can't be selectively turned on/off.

      I to think the cameras should be able to be turned off when there is an expectation of privacy such as in a restroom or when on lunch break. I agree that when interacting with the public the cameras should be turned on.

    13. Re:ok by AliasMarlowe · · Score: 4, Funny

      Votre mère était un hamster et votre père avait une odeur de baies de sureau...

      --
      Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire
    14. Re:ok by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      En plus moi j'aime la bière et non l'eau !

    15. Re:ok by Etherwalk · · Score: 1

      OK, like in UK, where surveillance cameras suddenly fail to operate when its convenient to the police.

      That happens in the U.S. too, even in places where police brutality has gotten so bad that police are required to record all arrests.

    16. Re:ok by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 4, Interesting

      "But it only works if they are ALL required to be recorded while on duty. No more double standards with them being allowed to record the public but the public not being allowed to record them."

      Not just that, but let's make sure there is no more coincidental "Oops... I didn't have my camera on" when things don't go their way.

      I was the victim of that myself once. Video camera was in prominent view, and recording light was on, but when it was time to go to court and describe what the police did, the recording had "mysteriously disappeared". Yeah right.

    17. Re:ok by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      No, but they will have to hire someone to put in the English subtitles.

    18. Re:ok by XcepticZP · · Score: 2

      So biting, scratching or kneeing a cop is reason enough for the cop to beat you senseless and into a pulp? What messed up world do you live in?

      Being restrained is a very claustrophobic feeling, I can understand people wanting to thrash around and get away. Especially if the moments just prior made the victim think he was going to be beaten or harmed. It's an unfortunate series of events.

      My solution: chloroform. If it's fast-acting enough, then why not use it? Harmless, and pretty soon the victim is incapacitated with no harm done. Sadly, cops don't want that because they want to punish the victim.

    19. Re:ok by quarterbuck · · Score: 1

      "Votre" ? So very polite of you.

      --
      http://slashdot.org/submission/1062723/Cheap-mobile-data-plan?art_pos=2
    20. Re:ok by drinkypoo · · Score: 2

      The issue is that the video didn't show the previous couple minutes where the police had the suspect on the ground and the suspect broke away and started fighting again or had bitten, scratched, kneed, etc officers as they were trying to cuff him.

      It's called necessary force. Not "as much force as I want to use because the suspect resisted". Unfortunately, many cops don't understand the distinction either.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    21. Re:ok by megrims · · Score: 1

      My solution: chloroform. If it's fast-acting enough, then why not use it? Harmless, and pretty soon the victim is incapacitated with no harm done. Sadly, cops don't want that because they want to punish the victim.

      Not sure if that was serious, but Chloroform is not quite as harmless as you see in television: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chloroform#As_an_anesthetic

    22. Re:ok by jklovanc · · Score: 1

      So biting, scratching or kneeing a cop is reason enough for the cop to beat you senseless and into a pulp?

      There have been police beating that go beyond reasonable levels. There have also been incidents where the actions of the suspect have changed drastically when they know they are being filmed. Some of the issues include suspects who appear docile but will not show their hands. Many time they have had knives, needles or guns in their hands and use them when the officers get close. If you have never tried to take a violently resisting person into custody then you really don't know what you are talking about.
      My solution: chloroform.

      Anyone using a drug useing a drug as an anesthetic would need medical training. Give a little too much and one could kill the patient. The application of the chloroform would require the officer to place his hand over the mouth of the suspect for a period of time. Even if the officer could hold long enough, chloroform is not instant, that is a great way to lose a finger. To counter the chloroform for a while all the suspect would have to do is hold his breath. There is also no way to control the fumes. The officers could be effected to. Finally, as another poster pointed out, chloroform is toxic.

    23. Re:ok by jklovanc · · Score: 1

      Agreed and one can not judge how much force was necessary when only seeing the last couple of minutes of a much longer altercation.

    24. Re:ok by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I second this motion. If they aren't seal from tampering there will be absolutely no way of trusting the footage.

    25. Re:ok by XcepticZP · · Score: 1

      Ok, so the dosage needs to be perfect, otherwise accidents can happen. That doesn't preclude it from being used in this scenario. Have some sort of regulated dosage-dispenser mask, kind of like a tazer. If the will was there, I'm sure you could make it both safe and reliable. It may not be perfect, but it sure beats having to beat the suspect half to death because only at that point do they become unable to physically resist.

    26. Re:ok by XcepticZP · · Score: 2

      There have been police beating that go beyond reasonable levels. There have also been incidents where the actions of the suspect have changed drastically when they know they are being filmed. Some of the issues include suspects who appear docile but will not show their hands. Many time they have had knives, needles or guns in their hands and use them when the officers get close. If you have never tried to take a violently resisting person into custody then you really don't know what you are talking about.

      I'm not saying the cop has to endanger themselves in such a situation just to be non-violent towards the victim. The level of escalation needs to be appropriate to the situation. If anything, a non-violent safe-distance solution is more appropriate than having the cops get close to this supposedly dangerous victim that has dangerous close-range implements. Tazer's come to mind. But beating the victim till they can't thrash around anymore? There should be NO reason for that when we have other options available.

      Anyone using a drug useing a drug as an anesthetic would need medical training. Give a little too much and one could kill the patient. The application of the chloroform would require the officer to place his hand over the mouth of the suspect for a period of time. Even if the officer could hold long enough, chloroform is not instant, that is a great way to lose a finger. To counter the chloroform for a while all the suspect would have to do is hold his breath. There is also no way to control the fumes. The officers could be effected to. Finally, as another poster pointed out, chloroform is toxic.

      It's only toxic in the wrong doses. Like i told the other poster, if the will for finding non-violent subduing means was there, they'd manage to find a way to make it safe and reliable. The chloroform was just an example, I'm sure smart people could come up with other solutions to the problem.

      So you say that officers will need medical training to administer the drug? Sure, fair enough. But don't they need medical training too if they have to know when to stop pounding a victim's face in? Simply stopping when the victim stops thrashing around is not enough, and they surely need training to know the difference. The adrenalin in the victim will make sure he keeps going way past what is safe for them, and that is why this whole thing is such a huge issue, to me anyways. You have not been in a position where you were required to "Stay calm" and not move while being restrained and possibly beaten, have you? Just imagine yourself in that situation. You're half-pinned, someone's beating you to "stay calm" and "stop resisting", what are you going to do? Lie there and take it? If you can do that, i applaude your self-discipline, however most if not all people can not do that. They will trash around, they will scream, they will claw because common sense is thrown out the window at that stage.

      Tazering may look violent, but at least it doesn't mean the victim get's his face beaten in because cops can't subdue them.

    27. Re:ok by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      oui oui flim de flop de flim de flu sacre bleu.

      Sorry, just clearing my throat.

    28. Re:ok by jklovanc · · Score: 1

      When you deal with medications that alter consciousness dose is very tricky. Ever wonder why they tell you not to eat before general anesthetic? The patient may throw up and inhale the vomit. This can cause pneumonia or worse. Proper dosage depends on weight, general health, other medications, etc. There is no way police officers in stressful situations can figure out the correct dosage.

      So you say that officers will need medical training to administer the drug? Sure, fair enough.

      Anesthesiologists are medical doctors and go through years of specific training in administration of drugs. Even they will not do it without oxygen and e respirator available. When even more people die due to drug interactions and overdoses who will get the blame? The police.

      You're half-pinned, someone's beating you to "stay calm" and "stop resisting"

      The police are not "someone". They are representatives of society who's job is to apprehend suspects. They are not some guy off the street.

      Tazering may look violent,

      I am all for tazers. They work most of the time but some times they are not available or have been expended.

    29. Re:ok by JosKarith · · Score: 1

      After all, if the police have nothing to hide they have nothing to fear...

      --
      'Don't worry' said the trees when they saw the axe coming, 'The handle is one of us.'
    30. Re:ok by drinkypoo · · Score: 2

      Agreed and one can not judge how much force was necessary when only seeing the last couple of minutes of a much longer altercation.

      That is patently untrue. The amount of force necessary to subdue a subject is not changed by what came before.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    31. Re:ok by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      You are thinking of the British. We ran away from the Germans at Dunkirk while the French just stood their ground but got their arses kicked and had to surrender anyway.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    32. Re:ok by kryliss · · Score: 1

      And who is going to be tasked with watching all of the officers' videos of their whole shifts?

      --
      --- If the bible proves the existence of God, then Superman comics prove the existence of Superman.
    33. Re:ok by kryliss · · Score: 1

      I would think that they could be remotely turned off by calling in a 10100 or 10200, then the light on the camera turns red to show it's not recording. Then they have to call it in within 5-10 minutes to reactivate it.. light goes green for on.

      --
      --- If the bible proves the existence of God, then Superman comics prove the existence of Superman.
    34. Re:ok by Nadaka · · Score: 1

      It is always the right thing to do to record the police. They are thugs, and should be treated with extreme suspicion.

    35. Re:ok by Nadaka · · Score: 1

      You expect cops who regularly murder people with glee to show restraint in the application of chloroform?

    36. Re:ok by Gr8Apes · · Score: 1

      The issue is that the video didn't show the previous couple minutes where the police had the suspect on the ground and the suspect broke away and started fighting again or had bitten, scratched, kneed, etc officers as they were trying to cuff him. Videos that show only the end of a confrontation are usually hiding something.

      They show what they're meant to show, police are not allowed to use excessive force. If the suspect is on the ground, they are pretty much submissive, any further beating is definitely a sign of excessive force. If the suspect jumps up after that and does further resisting, police have several options including tasers and/or guns. No, I don't expect an officer to put themselves in harm's way for this type of suspect. I'm fully ok with a shot to the leg to stop the problem, all on film, of course.

      --
      The cesspool just got a check and balance.
    37. Re:ok by jklovanc · · Score: 1

      I agree completely. Others are arguing that they should never be turned off while on duty.

    38. Re:ok by jklovanc · · Score: 1

      Have there been incidents where suspects have been brutalized by police? Yes. Have there been instances where police have done what appears to a layman to be brutality but really isn't? yes. All this armchair quarterbacking Is baseless. Most people who comment have never had training and have never been in a physical altercation with a determined foe.

      If the suspect is on the ground, they are pretty much submissive, any further beating is definitely a sign of excessive force.

      Yet more evidence that you have never tried to arrest someone. The suspect goes down and turtles. Every time an officer gets close he lashes out with feet, elbows, knees, etc. While the officers are away he looks passive. When the officers get close he is aggressive. On the ground does not mean passive. And again, The reason he won't show his hands could be the knife he has concealed there.

      I'm fully ok with a shot to the leg to stop the problem, all on film, of course.

      So you are advocating discharging a firearm in a non life threatening situation to subdue someone? Do you realize how dangerous that is? People have died by being shot in the leg. Hit the femoral artery and he's dead. The bullet could hit the knee permanently disabling the suspect. Miss and the bullet could go anywhere killing someone else. I can just hear the headlines "Drunken party goer shot and killed by police". This aiming for the leg thing is also unreasonable. Unless the suspect is lying completely still the shot could be a difficult one. Anyone who has ever fired a handgun knows that in a hand to hand fight it is very likely for the suspect to get control of the gun and shoot the officer. Also bringing a gun into the situation escalates it and the suspect will fight harder as they see their life is in danger.

      By the way, tazers are not completely effective. They work while they are active buth then officers can't be in contact with the suspect at that time. After contact, some people, especially those high on crack or meth, recover very quickly and become aggressive almost immediately.

      any further beating is definitely a sign of excessive force

      I agree with that statement but the beating is not definitive proof of excessive force as so many people would believe. One needs to take the whole incident into context and not just the last 30 seconds.

    39. Re:ok by Gr8Apes · · Score: 1

      The suspect goes down and turtles. Every time an officer gets close he lashes out with feet, elbows, knees, etc. While the officers are away he looks passive. When the officers get close he is aggressive. On the ground does not mean passive. And again, The reason he won't show his hands could be the knife he has concealed there.

      any further beating is definitely a sign of excessive force

      I agree with that statement but the beating is not definitive proof of excessive force as so many people would believe. One needs to take the whole incident into context and not just the last 30 seconds.

      30s of beating is excessive. If they're on the ground and not responding to a hit, there should be none after that. Officers are supposed to be trained to be able to control a suspect once they are on the ground. If they cannot, continued beating still isn't the answer. Shooting them? Sure. And yes, I'm aware that shooting a leg is difficult in a running scenario, but we're talking on the ground here. Recall the zombie guy? No one criticized the officer for shooting the guy. Seemed like a reasonable decision. If the officer believes the suspect has a weapon, then the officer should probably not engage in hand to hand in the first place. Shooting to disable someone on the ground that's unresponsive and acting the way you describe above would be a prime argument in favor of cameras for police. It's very hard to argue against video footage.

      So exactly what are you arguing here?

      --
      The cesspool just got a check and balance.
    40. Re:ok by jklovanc · · Score: 1

      If the officer believes the suspect has a weapon, then the officer should probably not engage in hand to hand in the first place.

      Officers are trained to assume everyone is armed until proven otherwise. That is a main reason people are frisked when taken into custody.

      Shooting to disable someone on the ground that's unresponsive

      As I have stated, safely shooting someone to disable is impossible. There are too many negative outcomes including the PR issue of "police shooting non-resisting suspects". Look at the issue of hitting suspects do you really thing shooting them will get better acceptance?

      So exactly what are you arguing here?

      That most people have no idea of how to assess what necessary force is which is exacerbated by only seeing the last part of an altercation.

    41. Re:ok by Gr8Apes · · Score: 1

      There's something about beating someone to a pulp vs giving a suspect a command and then reacting to that suspect actively defying the officer that is a small, minor difference in scope. Kind of similar to raise your hands and the do - with a gun it it. On video, that would be 100% unquestionable. Even a toy gun, it looks like a gun with a hostile appearing intent, well, perhaps they should listen when an armed officer tells them what to do. I know I certainly don't fight back no matter how unhappy I am. File a complaint, provided it's valid, sure. Fight an officer, or even more dumb, a group of officers? Nope, not so much.

      Note that the scenarios described, however, are where the officer has some reason to interfere with the person. Just stopping someone on the street - not so much in my opinion.

      --
      The cesspool just got a check and balance.
    42. Re:ok by jklovanc · · Score: 1

      I know I certainly don't fight back no matter how unhappy I am.

      The problem is that many people don't react as reasonably as you do. Remember the officer is always armed and people fight back.

    43. Re:ok by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The amount of force it is reasonable to believe will be necessary to subdue a suspect is most definitely informed by what came before.

    44. Re:ok by AliasMarlowe · · Score: 1

      Ai-je été si poli, péter au roi d'angleterre?
      Insultes polies sont plus efficaces, en tout cas...

      --
      Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire
  2. But by JustOK · · Score: 3, Funny

    They only record in French.

    --
    rewriting history since 2109
    1. Re:But by slackware+3.6 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The Anglos have to work all the time to pay for your equalizations payments frenchy.

    2. Re:But by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Le sigh!

    3. Re:But by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, nevermind the 60 billion we send over to Ottawa in taxes every year. It`s a net gain of $53 billion for ROC, stop fucking complaining.

    4. Re:But by JuicyBrain · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Weird because when french canadians tried to have their own country, the anglos were in the street claiming their love and begging for them to stay a part of Canada. Remember the 1995 referendum ? Yes the one where the liberals cheated... There is nothing we would love more than have our own country. Help us get there at the next referendum and then we can start to love each other again.

      Btw, I'm not the anonymous coward and I do not share his views about beating up people...

    5. Re:But by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Fils de pute.

    6. Re:But by seyyah · · Score: 2

      The Anglos have to work all the time to pay for your equalizations payments frenchy.

      In fairness, a plurality want their own country but us Anglos don't want them to have it.

    7. Re:But by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The Anglos have to work all the time to pay for your equalizations payments frenchy.

      Yes and isn't that sweet! We got the anglos by the balls. :)

      JuicyBrain, a Quebec separation means Canada is divided into two halves and a huge of amount of natural resources and transportation lines will be lost. A Quebec separation won't be good for either side, both sides know this. The Quebecois want to separate mainly to freely pursue their own life philosophy which is fundamentally different from the anglos'... I'm the AC who posted the original comment, I'm neither anglophone nor francophone yet both, I don't necessarily condone beating up the anglos but there's so much bias in this (troll-ridden) forum against the French that I feel compelled to post the opposite point of view whenever the subject comes up. I'll stop when the anti-French comments stop.

    8. Re:But by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      more ignorant comments from clueless Canadian rednecks...

    9. Re:But by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

      Your federal taxes are the same as anywhere else in the country, and it's not a net gain for ROC - all the money goes into the same pot and then gets handed out to pay for all the federal programs that every province enjoys. The only thing wrong with the equalization payments program is how much of a stink everyone makes about it.

    10. Re:But by NFN_NLN · · Score: 5, Insightful

      ...the anglos were in the street claiming their love and begging for them to stay a part of Canada...

      ... the anglos were in the street calling bullshit for segmenting Canada in half and having a secondary country extort them for transporting goods east/west.

    11. Re:But by slackware+3.6 · · Score: 2

      The french can bitch when they start paying for things in Alberta. If the french paid their own way they could do what they like and no one would give a shit. But like the 40 year old child getting an allowance and living in mommy's basement, get a job and move out.

    12. Re:But by slackware+3.6 · · Score: 1

      It's hard to get an education when you have to pay full price not Quebec price. And how come the high and mighty Frenchmen don't subsidize my child care so I only pay $7 a day?

    13. Re:But by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They must record primarily in french, but other languages are acceptable, as long as french is most prominent.

    14. Re:But by JuicyBrain · · Score: 0

      Well, then pay and shut up about it.

      You (rest of Canada) bitch about sharing your oil money, why should we give you access to the east for free ?? You can't have it both ways. You either keep us, share the wealth and shut up or lose access to the east and our natural resources. Thank you very much
      We won't move to please you. We were there first anyway...

    15. Re:But by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Actually it's interesting how much support for sovereignty fell in the 7-8 years after that referendum as the internet proliferated. The more people were able to fact check the issues that were presented as reasons why quebec should separate the less people simply believed what they were told. I was an anglophone living in quebec during the referendum and in some cases the atmosphere got downright toxic, but by 2002 or so people seemed way more tolerant and much better informed, especially as to the economic realities. It's even better today, with a few small areas that are exceptions.

      Despite your personal views, I don't think you're going to see another sovereignty referendum attempted in our lifetime.

    16. Re:But by slackware+3.6 · · Score: 2

      What natural resources does Quebec have other than huge open pit asbestos (shipped to third world countries so poor people can use it without being made aware of the health risks) and gold mines that are never reclaimed like they do in the oil sands. Quebec just passed a 5 year moratorium on fracking and drilling so what are these natural resources you speak of? And if Quebec was so financially beneficial to the rest of Canada why don't they pay Alberta equalization payments? And how come Quebec has three times the senators as Alberta? Quebec doesn't have three times to population of Alberta.

    17. Re:But by int19 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      We were there first anyway...

      No, you were not.

    18. Re:But by dfetter · · Score: 1

      How is alleging something about his mother's situation in life helping?

      --
      What part of "A well regulated militia" do you not understand?
    19. Re:But by JuicyBrain · · Score: 1
      5 years moratorium on fracking - True, but eventually, it'll change
      Too many senators - Absolutely true. I hope it'll change. The whole population wants it to change
      The asbestos mines - True, I hope they shut those mines once and for all. we are being laughed at by the whole world because of that.

      Quebec doesn't have three times to population of Alberta

      Actually, almost three times yes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Canadian_provinces_and_territories_by_population

      First and foremost, we have lots of fresh water which one day will be worth more than gold, we have forests and a lot of mining potential (diamond, nickel, titanium, rare earths) and we do have oil though it's not being exploited yet.

      Anyway, as I said, if it's true that we have nothing redeemable, then please, by all means, kick us out of Canada !

    20. Re:But by JuicyBrain · · Score: 1

      Compared to the brits, smartass...

    21. Re:But by npuzzle · · Score: 1

      Since when does fresh water not count as a natural resource? Quebec has the largest fresh water reserves in Canada (Statistics Canada) and largely contributes to Canada containing 3 of the world's renewable freshwater reserves (Environment Canada).

      (FYI: there are more senators in Quebec than Alberta for historical reasons. This was adopted to ensure that both French- and English-speakers from Quebec were represented appropriately in the Senate Senate of Canada)

    22. Re:But by painandgreed · · Score: 1

      They only record in French.

      Worse, they'd be in Québécois.

    23. Re:But by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "There is nothing we would love more than have our own country. Help us get there at the next referendum and then we can start to love each other again."

      Yeah except that you want us to pay for it, use our passports, currency, etc.

    24. Re:But by slackware+3.6 · · Score: 1

      How much is water worth a barrel, where are the pipelines for exporting this water, who need to buy this water, do you really think the Quebec government will start draining lakes? How does all this alleged valuable turn into money so Quebec can once again become a "have" province instead of paying for their social programs from the equalization fund? Quebec also has oil and gas but your premier recently said it was better not to explore because it is better for Quebec not to make to much money so the equalization payments keep coming.

  3. Frankly, Diane by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm surprised.

  4. Comes with automatic switch by paiute · · Score: 5, Funny

    The system turns itself off when the taser comes out of its holster.

    --
    If Slashdot were chemistry it would look like this:Cadaverine
    1. Re:Comes with automatic switch by CBravo · · Score: 2

      You first taze the camera and then the rest.

      --
      nosig today
    2. Re:Comes with automatic switch by iggymanz · · Score: 2

      the rest is best done old-school with a billy club, much more stress relieving and tactile

    3. Re:Comes with automatic switch by excelsior_gr · · Score: 1

      Did you just say off? I would expect it to be off all the time and switch itself on when the taser comes out and we're down to business.

    4. Re:Comes with automatic switch by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not many officers carry billy clubs where I am. No, they use Kell lights: those nice heavy C-cell 4-battery flashlights that's already in your hands in a dark area and is less likely to get stuck or hung up on something sharp.

    5. Re:Comes with automatic switch by cgimusic · · Score: 2

      The footage gets automatically deleted when requested by someone for a lawsuit against the police.

    6. Re: Comes with automatic switch by coniferous · · Score: 2

      It was proposed by the police union, so you can pretty much garuntee that turning it off won't be a big deal to them. It really should be on 100% of the time, but I'm sure it will "break" at all the right times.

  5. Loaded camera by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    That camera must be one powerful weapon if it has caused such a great reduction in "assaults on officers." I don't suppose it could be that they were making shit up, and now find it more difficult to do so with video evidence? Could this be extrapolated to suggest that a majority of "resisting arrest" charges are entirely bogus?

    1. Re:Loaded camera by oconnorcjo · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Or perhaps it could be that people don't want to hit a cop now that they know that there is video proof. In some jurisdictions, assaults on police officer charges go nowhere in court (but are supposed to come with real jail time).

      --
      I miss the Karma Whores.
    2. Re:Loaded camera by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Troll

      Hey, we're trying to have an anti-cop circle jerk here.

    3. Re:Loaded camera by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Just stating the first logical conclusion. Given that it's a certainty the cop knows bout his uniform camera, and an uncertainty that any potential assaulter knows about it, there is a much higher probability that the reduction in assaults is attributable directly to the officer being aware of the camera.

      But, hey... ad hominems all around, amirite? Go fuck yourself.

    4. Re:Loaded camera by 0111+1110 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      What do you mean by "go nowhere"? I was charged with assaulting a police officer in addition to pretty much every other contempt of cop charge and received a very generous plea bargain offer from the prosecutor with no jail time and only 6 months probation. My attorney argued for 3 months and the judge accepted it. I could only assume the generous offer was due to the fact that the prosecutor either didn't believe the cop's bullshit story or felt there wasn't enough evidence to convict me. There were at least 6 or 7 police witnesses who presumably would have backed up the guy's lies if it had gone to trial. So it does seem strange. It may be that even the prosecutors have stopped believing the cops.

      --
      Quite an experience to live in fear, isn't it? That's what it is to be a slave.
    5. Re:Loaded camera by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If the prosecutor didn't believe the story, then why offer a plea at all? The right thing to do is to drop the charges completely.

    6. Re:Loaded camera by amiga3D · · Score: 4, Insightful

      He has to maintain a working relationship with the police.

    7. Re:Loaded camera by amiga3D · · Score: 2

      They usually don't actually attack first. The problem is, once they get started you're gonna get stomped. Usually it's like this, the officer says get up against the car. You say "fuck you." He then grabs you and throws you against the car. If, at this point you cease to resist he cuffs you. If you fight against it, it's on. He's going to beat you senseless then cuff you. After that it's off to jail where you get charged with assaulting an officer. I can't say it's right but it was easily avoidable.

    8. Re:Loaded camera by AchilleTalon · · Score: 1

      They offer the plea only to avoid the trial and the cost of the trial. This kind of tractation is usual and the goal is to close the cases quickly and avoid the extra costs of running a trial when appropriate. You cannot conclude anything beyond this.

      --
      Achille Talon
      Hop!
    9. Re:Loaded camera by noh8rz10 · · Score: 1

      dude, story please? what did you do that you were arrested for assaulting an officer in front of 6 or 7 witnesses?

    10. Re:Loaded camera by russotto · · Score: 2

      It may be that even the prosecutors have stopped believing the cops.

      Of course the prosecutors know the cops are full of shit. The judges (mostly ex-prosecutors) know too. Everyone in the system knows what's going on, they just don't give a shit. The purpose of the system is to keep people subservient to it, not to dispense justice, and everyone pretending to believe the testilying helps to support that.

    11. Re:Loaded camera by number11 · · Score: 2

      Or perhaps it could be that people don't want to hit a cop now that they know that there is video proof. In some jurisdictions, assaults on police officer charges go nowhere in court (but are supposed to come with real jail time).

      The world is a very big place, but I suspect there are very few jurisdictions in North America where "assault on police officer" charges don't go anywhere. It's a standard add-on charge the cops use if they get physical. And when it comes down to your word against the cop's, the cop's version is going to win, whether the cop made it up or not.

      But I do predict that there will be many mysterious camera failures. The fact that they happen just before the cop beats the crap out of somebody will be entirely coincidental.

    12. Re:Loaded camera by number11 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If the prosecutor didn't believe the story, then why offer a plea at all? The right thing to do is to drop the charges completely.

      Why would you think that "right" has anything to do with it?

    13. Re: Loaded camera by nihaopaul · · Score: 1

      Its a good thing. Police in China have them on their vests. But they must be tamper proof like in shanghai other wise they just record what they choose

    14. Re:Loaded camera by HornWumpus · · Score: 4, Funny

      Leave him/her alone. They're cute when so young and naive.

      I bet you tell them there is no Santa Claus too.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    15. Re:Loaded camera by HornWumpus · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Read your own story. Who attacked who first?

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    16. Re:Loaded camera by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      That would be an argument for some type of visible symbol or warning that is prominently displayed with the wearable video system. I doubt that the system would remain unknown to the general public for very long. Everyone knows that police cars have cameras in them even though they're not always obvious.

    17. Re:Loaded camera by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The guy who got beaten hurt the cops feelings. Duh.

    18. Re:Loaded camera by fazey · · Score: 2

      Saying hang on a minute and pushing the cops hands away as they try to man-handle you, is not attacking. But will also be considered "assaulting an officer". So... really think about what the definition of attack is.

      I think cameras on all cops will be awesome. But it needs to not be able to be turned off. And if it "malfunctions" there needs to be a look into what the cop was doing at that time. Because they turn off their cameras when its convenient for them. After all... why record yourself taking a bribe?

    19. Re:Loaded camera by VortexCortex · · Score: 3, Funny

      That would be an argument for some type of visible symbol or warning that is prominently displayed with the wearable video system.

      I propose a giant bacon stripped uniform. Everyone loves bacon.

    20. Re:Loaded camera by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or, it could indicate that bad guys talk to other bad guys and it's well known in the segment of the low-life population who assault cops that the cameras exist even though the general law abiding public is not as well informed because their brother, friend, uncle, sister, mother, father, son, daughter, sister, neighbor has never been on trial for assaulting a cop and discovered, to their chagrin, that the whole thing had been recorded.

    21. Re:Loaded camera by hey! · · Score: 1

      I don't suppose it could be that they were making shit up, and now find it more difficult to do so with video evidence? Could this be extrapolated to suggest that a majority of "resisting arrest" charges are entirely bogus?

      Which must be why the patrolmen's union wants them as standard equipment. Really, you missed your chance to make this an anti-union rant a well as an anti-cop rant.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    22. Re:Loaded camera by j-beda · · Score: 1

      They offer the plea only to avoid the trial and the cost of the trial. This kind of tractation is usual and the goal is to close the cases quickly and avoid the extra costs of running a trial when appropriate. You cannot conclude anything beyond this.

      Generally however, the offered plea is made based on what they think the "perp" will plea to, and based on what they think they could get at trial. If they are offering a slap on the wrist, then they clearly do not think they can prove much beyond that, or that the accused will accept much beyond that.

    23. Re:Loaded camera by zeugma-amp · · Score: 2

      I think cameras on all cops will be awesome. But it needs to not be able to be turned off. And if it "malfunctions" there needs to be a look into what the cop was doing at that time. Because they turn off their cameras when its convenient for them. After all... why record yourself taking a bribe?

      What would be even more effective is for juries to vote to acquit any time the camera "malfunctions", or the judge just throw the case out based on the 'malfunction'. I know that if I'm on a jury, and video evidence is 'missing', I sure as hell am not going to believe a word the cop says.

      --
      This is an ex-parrot!
    24. Re:Loaded camera by Jerry+Smith · · Score: 1

      dude, story please? what did you do that you were arrested for assaulting an officer in front of 6 or 7 witnesses?

      "to within an inch of his death", he assured me when I asked about it (he mentions it a lot). So he managed to get tried and found guilty with over 5 witnesses AND a hospital record to prove otherwise. Probably because of some 'Occupy' action.
      Don't question him of he'll 'foe' you too.

      --
      All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to die.
    25. Re:Loaded camera by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or how about "attempted murder" and my arrest report was one short paragraph.

      That was good for 3 days in jail, and a years probation, and a years 'anger management' counseling, plus an 'attempted murder' charge on my record forever.

      It could have been worse, my public 'defender' was a cruel joke, so I argued with the prostituting attorney, errr, I meant prosecuting attorney, and got all the other draconian bullshit removed.

      Oh yeah, I didn't hurt anybody, had no intention of hurting anybody, and I didn't break any laws.

      There is no "Justice" in the US, only the Prison Industrial Complex that will eat anyone thrown at it.

    26. Re:Loaded camera by fazey · · Score: 1

      The problem with that, is a good judo chop to the camera would get you out of anything.

    27. Re:Loaded camera by 0111+1110 · · Score: 1

      The point of the whole plea thing is that it never went to trial. Duh. I was offered a deal with no jail time. I couldn't prove my innocence. No audio or video. All of the witnesses were cops themselves. Are you thinking that the other cops would testify on my side and get their fellow officer in trouble?

      --
      Quite an experience to live in fear, isn't it? That's what it is to be a slave.
  6. Our local department has this by dugancent · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Started about a year ago. They are turned on when the shift starts and can't be turned off until the shift has ended.

    Mounted on a hat above the right ear and they have sound.

    Indiana, by the way.

    --
    SJWs are the new boogeyman. -Me
    1. Re:Our local department has this by dfetter · · Score: 2

      Good for you guys! I'm betting this will really improve officer behavior, but only if the penalties for "malfunctions" are severe, e.g. disciplinary actions against the LEO and never pressing charges against anyone during whose arrest a "malfunction" has occurred.

      --
      What part of "A well regulated militia" do you not understand?
    2. Re:Our local department has this by TheRealMindChild · · Score: 1

      Yeah. This is when it conveniently becomes broken (I have a buddy with a brother that is a cop, in Ohio, and this absolutely happens)

      --

      "When life gives you lemons, don't make lemonade. Make life take the lemons back!" -- Cave Johnson
    3. Re:Our local department has this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      They are turned on when the shift starts and can't be turned off until the shift has ended.

      I'm hoping that they get to take their hats off to go to the bathroom.

    4. Re:Our local department has this by Cheerio+Boy · · Score: 1

      Started about a year ago. They are turned on when the shift starts and can't be turned off until the shift has ended.

      Mounted on a hat above the right ear and they have sound.

      Indiana, by the way.

      This is absolutely needed. The powers that be forget far too often that they themselves are human and not only make mistakes but are corruptible as well. Kudos to your locals for doing this!

      Of course this wouldn't stop a sudden application of silly putty on the lense and/or microphone. The mic would be the better choice there - "I'm sorry sir but we seemed to have had audio transmission issues during that incident."

      --

      "Bah!" - Dogbert
    5. Re:Our local department has this by amiga3D · · Score: 2

      I'm betting that officers who have an inordinate amount of "malfunctions" end up riding a desk. The main reason for these cameras isn't to protect the citizenry but to cut down on lawsuits. With all the cameras out in public now video evidence of police brutality is popping up more and more. If officers know they are being recorded then that will save the city a lot of money.

    6. Re:Our local department has this by MrL0G1C · · Score: 1

      I want to know everything - battery size, resolution recorded, frames per second, camera size, camera and battery weight? I'd love one for my job, preferably with rear recording too.

      Got a product link?

      --
      Waterfox - a Firefox fork with legacy extension support, security updates and better privacy by default.
    7. Re:Our local department has this by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      'My hat was knocked off in the altercation.' The oinkers (term used to keep the discussion 'fair and balanced' vs LEO) will continue to lie.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    8. Re:Our local department has this by VortexCortex · · Score: 1

      Folks in this thread seem to be dichotomous over whether the cameras cause the police to be a bit more cautious or the folks around the police to be more aware. Personally, I don't trust humans. They're illogical, irrational, reactionary, hormone and adrenaline fueled beasts. Anything that reduces violence in general, for whatever reason is good. I welcome the cameras. Even if they can be "disabled", I don't think police or people are uniformly corrupt. Their decisions can be swayed by circumstance and An increase in objective observations where laws are being enforced (sometimes by force) is good for both subjects. No need for a false dichotomy. The cameras can make everyone involved behave better. A little bit better behavior on both parts can lead to a disproportionate decrease in tensions due to the nature of escalation of force and perceived threat.

    9. Re:Our local department has this by blackraven14250 · · Score: 1

      That's not even a good excuse. You'd still have the video from the altercation starting, and likely the audio from the entire incident, all of which would be admissible in court.

    10. Re:Our local department has this by publiclurker · · Score: 2

      I've always wondered if these malfunctions could be minimized by having the judge explain to the jury: "The officer in question was a wearing a recording device that should record the encounter in question. For some reason, this device was not operating during the time in question. You are free to take this fact into account when determining the accuracy of their testimony."

    11. Re:Our local department has this by HiThere · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Sorry, but you've got that wrong. The punishment doesn't need to be severe, but needs to be relatively certain. A minor punishment that you are fairly certain will be applied is much more effective than a severe punishment that is quite uncertain. And heavy punishments are typically applied much more sparingly.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    12. Re:Our local department has this by Firethorn · · Score: 1

      Remember, wired for sound as well. It's not going to look good if it's 'knocked off' in the car. Plus, well, I imaging that arranging for it to be knocked off in a physical confrontation in a convincing manner, while ensuring that it DOESN'T 'happen' to land facing said confrontation, would be difficult. Especially if they make it so it has a camera facing back as well.

      Well, unless you think 'THEY'RE COMING RIGHT AT US!!!' would actually convince people.

      --
      I don't read AC A human right
    13. Re:Our local department has this by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      'Stop resisting' as the oinker stomps the citizens skull. They already do this as they are often already on audio.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
  7. great for all civil servants by wbr1 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    As long as there are penalties for 'losing' key footage. Whether by the officer or higher in the chain of command. Otherwise it becomes a selective evidence tool that is easily biased.

    --
    Silence is a state of mime.
    1. Re:great for all civil servants by CBravo · · Score: 1

      All video should be uploaded to a vault where it is supervised by court (why else would you need evidence).

      --
      nosig today
    2. Re:great for all civil servants by drinkypoo · · Score: 3, Insightful

      As long as there are penalties for 'losing' key footage. Whether by the officer or higher in the chain of command. Otherwise it becomes a selective evidence tool that is easily biased.

      This is a problem which can easily be dealt with in the courts. Footage missing? Cop must be lying.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    3. Re:great for all civil servants by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Troll

      Pretty easy solution there, automatic $100,000 fine for each 1 second gap in recording that can't be accounted for.

      As much as your average dirty cop likes busting out the baton and playing tee-ball with a protestor's skull, if the "whoops, the CCTV conked out exactly when we supposedly kicked the shit out of him" costs them money out of pocket, you'll see that habit dry up pretty quick.

    4. Re:great for all civil servants by ebno-10db · · Score: 2

      This is a problem which can easily be dealt with in the courts. Footage missing? Cop must be lying.

      Can be and will be are two very different things.

    5. Re:great for all civil servants by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Good thing that no modern democracy have a legal system based on argumentum ad silentio ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_silence ).

    6. Re:great for all civil servants by perrin · · Score: 2

      All modern jurisdictions have very tough rules against spoliation of evidence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spoliation_of_evidence), from which one can draw negative evidentiary inference.

    7. Re:great for all civil servants by cgimusic · · Score: 1

      I am from the UK and we have a legal system based on that. Our version of the Miranda rights have a section that reads "it may harm your defence if you do not mention when questioned something which you later rely on in court". I.e. if you say nothing to the police then the jury can be instructed to infer that you made your story up before the trial.

    8. Re:great for all civil servants by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's not argumentum ad silentio.

      No modern legal system allows a conviction based on the absence of evidence. Lying by omission is obviously defendable, but then the lie has to eventually be proven by something solid - that something entirely different than proposing to convict someone on the basis of a missing tape.

    9. Re:great for all civil servants by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Indeed.

      That's how the law deals with felon that conceal evidences. Not by making convictions out of dumb assumptions ("Footage missing? Cop must be lying" WTF).

    10. Re:great for all civil servants by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Instructed to infer? Why not just tell them what the verdict is and save time, money, and effort in pretending that justice is blind?

    11. Re:great for all civil servants by noh8rz10 · · Score: 1

      I am from the UK and we have a legal system based on that. Our version of the Miranda rights have a section that reads "it may harm your defence if you do not mention when questioned something which you later rely on in court". I.e. if you say nothing to the police then the jury can be instructed to infer that you made your story up before the trial.

      that's your version of "rights?" instead of "you have the right to remain silent" it's "you had better dump your drawers or we'll make it hell for you later." this is why i live in US and use my right to bear arms which is constitutionally protected.

    12. Re:great for all civil servants by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There was a case not too long ago (don't remember all the details, otherwise I'd look it up and link it here) where a man was accused of some particular offense against the cops. He wanted to use the police dash cam footage as evidence of his innocence but the video system had a "malfunction" and thus the police could not produce the tape. He lost the case and was convicted of whatever it was he was charged with. He appealed and lost, with a ruling that the police have no legal responsibility for the lost tape.

      It's a grey area obviously, because anything technical or mechanical can have malfunctions, and it's probably reasonably easy to sabotage the system in such a way that it looks like a normal malfunction rather than sabotage. You wouldn't want a guilty perp to go free just because of a glitch in the recording system, but at the same time, more needs to be done to keep the police honest about their activities.

    13. Re:great for all civil servants by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 2

      You wouldn't want a guilty perp to go free just because of a glitch in the recording system

      You wouldn't want a guilty perp to go free just because evidence was obtained inappropriately either, but you must (and almost all courts will) reject such evidence if you want standards for how evidence is fairly obtained to mean anything. If the case at hand can't stand up without it, that's unfortunate but necessary on a "greater good" basis.

      In the case of copcam that we're talking about, the obvious analogue would be to give the benefit of the doubt to the non-officer in any case where an officer was or should have been wearing a copcam but the police fail to produce the evidence in court for any reason. In particular, in any case where there was a dispute over what happened, the evidence is otherwise inconclusive, and copcam footage would reasonably have been expected to show the events unambiguously, the presumption is that a suspect walks but a cop gets disciplined, and the failure to provide the evidence in one case should itself be admissible as evidence in future cases involving the same cop.

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    14. Re:great for all civil servants by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

      Because an instruction to draw a certain inference about one aspect of a case because of a legal technicality is not the same as directing the jury to reach a certain verdict on the case as a whole.

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    15. Re:great for all civil servants by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

      In practice, it's closer to "You can't mess us around even when it's in a recorded interview under caution with your lawyer present, and then change your story in court later and expect anyone to believe you".

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    16. Re:great for all civil servants by blackraven14250 · · Score: 1

      In a jurisdiction where wearing a camera is required, they likely do have a legal obligation to produce said video, unlike dash cams in most states, where the cops aren't required to have one at all.

    17. Re:great for all civil servants by jklovanc · · Score: 1

      And you have never had a technical difficulty with a piece of hardware. I agree that if there is a pattern of missing footage there is probably an issue but one incident is not proof of lying. For example, the camera and recording could have been damaged in the altercation. I agree that the reason behind the missing footage needs to be addressed and brought up in court but automatically concluding the officer is lying is going to far.

    18. Re:great for all civil servants by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No...I would want a guilty perp to go freee because of inappropriately collected evidence. And in the event of any type of intentional or routine failure to appropriately collect, I would like the collector charged as an accessory to the crime.

      Better 100 guilty men go free than 1 innocent in prison.

    19. Re:great for all civil servants by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ... Cop must be lying ...

      Don't you know how the world works? A cop is a servant of the court and would obviously, never lie to his boss; on punishment of, uh, um, having last pick from the doughnut box.

    20. Re:great for all civil servants by noh8rz10 · · Score: 1

      there's a difference between what you said and what the GP said. you said, "if you say A to us now, you won't be able to say B later in court." GP said "if you don't say A now, then you won't be able to say it later in court." The difference, of course, is the right to remain silent, and choose neither to say A nor B now, and still use them in court later.

    21. Re:great for all civil servants by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

      there's a difference between what you said and what the GP said. you said, "if you say A to us now, you won't be able to say B later in court."

      Not quite. I said you couldn't change your story later and expect anyone to believe you, which would include for example implausibly forgetting some obvious and relevant detail at the interview stage and then suddenly having a precise memory of exactly your version of events in court later.

      Also note that the exact wording of the caution here is that it may harm your defence, not that it necessarily will. As far as I know (IANAL) you can still say something in court that you didn't before, but you can also be asked to explain the discrepancy and a jury is allowed to draw inferences if they don't buy your explanation.

      GP said "if you don't say A now, then you won't be able to say it later in court."

      If that were what the GP had said, they would have been wrong, for the same reason as above.

      The difference, of course, is the right to remain silent

      Which is a rather strange "right" not necessarily expected or protected under all legal systems. I've never really understood the legal or ethical argument for why someone should be allowed to decline to present or defend their side of the story but then effectively be given credit for it anyway. How does this make a just and fair outcome to a trial more likely?

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    22. Re:great for all civil servants by Nefarious+Wheel · · Score: 1

      As long as there are penalties for 'losing' key footage. Whether by the officer or higher in the chain of command. Otherwise it becomes a selective evidence tool that is easily biased.

      This is a problem which can easily be dealt with in the courts. Footage missing? Cop must be lying.

      Destruction of evidence is a crime, too.

      --
      Do not mock my vision of impractical footwear
    23. Re:great for all civil servants by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not good enough.

      Video footage missing? What charges are against the defendant? What is the sentence if the defendant is found guilty?

      Cop immediately serves the sentence for all charges against the defendant, all charges are dismissed for the defendant. No further trial, no appeal, cop arrested and if the sentence is jail or prison, gets put in with the general population.

      Once or twice this happens, all the cops will double-check to make sure no video footage is even lost again.

    24. Re:great for all civil servants by number17 · · Score: 1

      "Software update has rendered the cameras inoperable. Everybody go home, we won't be fighting crime for a couple of days"

  8. make it police proof by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I'm all for it. Make sure it can't be turned off. And "losing it" should trigger an automatic suspension.

    1. Re:make it police proof by Skapare · · Score: 1

      Tie it in with a dedicated phone system so it can be sending the pictures back to the police headquarters continuously.

      --
      now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
  9. Uh by _KiTA_ · · Score: 4, Interesting

    In the two recent Canadian Police Brutality events, the police DID have cameras on their uniforms.

    They turned them off until after the attack was over.

    1. Re:Uh by Trepidity · · Score: 1

      Isn't recording space these days cheap/compact enough that they can just record all the time, and not even contain functionality for being turned off? I mean, the officer could still deliberately disable the device, but if it had no on/off switch and they had to overtly damage/destroy it, that would be a higher bar (and a lot easier to punish them for).

    2. Re:Uh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      That SHOULD result in default judgement against the police in any sane society.

      The word of that camera should trump the value of the word of the police and should actually remove their value. If the camera can't verify what the police said due to malfunction or intentional at such an inopportune time it should make his word worth less than nothing unless it can be proven it failed due to legitimate means which can be verified, such as the plaintiff attacking them and damaging it which could still be seen on camera as it happened.

      THAT is how it should be done. Sorry, no turning it off or claiming it malfunctioned without proof and getting caught tampering with it should cost them their job and a felony offense with mandatory jail time.

    3. Re:Uh by jkflying · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Yeah, it should be a criminal offence for an officer to turn off their camera during duty hours.

      --
      Help I am stuck in a signature factory!
    4. Re:Uh by fredklein · · Score: 1

      A piece of tape over the lens disables the video recording, without damaging or destroying the device. For briefer times, the could just put their hand over it 'accidentally'.

    5. Re:Uh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      So... do you want to be in a public restroom with a cop wired for sight and sound while he's having a break on duty? Zero facility for turning it off may not be the Holy Grail of cop accountability here. I am all for giving them no quarter in this but I don't want to sight of reality either.

    6. Re:Uh by Calydor · · Score: 5, Funny

      With a camera mounted on each shoulder they'll look like they're doing the macarena dance while trying to turn the cameras off.

      I approve of this.

      --
      -=This sig has nothing to do with my comment. Move along now=-
    7. Re:Uh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      That's no problem. This stuff isn't streaming to Youtube or something like that. Footage should only be available by court order. The court isn't going to be interested in the sounds of your loud farts while on the can. If there's an off switch even the honest cops are going to sometimes forget to turn these things back on again and then the corrupt cops can hide in the crowd using that excuse. If the footage really must be disabled for some reason, the cop will need to take off his uniform - not impossible, but a lot of trouble and also something that you can't do by accident.

    8. Re:Uh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If that portion of the video is worth requesting as evidence in a court case, then it would definitely be important to keep.

    9. Re:Uh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      If the cameras are mounted on his shoulders, all the viewer will see is the urinal he is peeing into or the door of the stall he is sitting in to take a dump. You won't see anything major and in the military and other professions, men actually have to bathe where others can see them anyways, this shouldn't be as big of an issue given the power the are to be entrusted with.

      I would approve this on any such officials whether it be Police, Military and even (ESPECIALLY) Politicians. We are their bosses and as such, we should have the ability to verify their actions. One of the pitfalls of being a public servant (even though many see the public as the enemy or a necessary evil at this point and see themselves as a corporate servant instead).

      The only thing that keeps me from asking for a live feed of this is the invasion of privacy of the citizens they deal with as part of their jobs.

    10. Re:Uh by Garybaldy · · Score: 1

      That happens a lot in the states as well. The footage from the dash camera's always seems to have a problem at crucial times.

    11. Re:Uh by tibit · · Score: 2

      Contemporary electronics are fairly reliable. The chances of the camera failing at the exact moment of confrontation further diminish by a few orders of magnitude the likelihood that a just-in-time malfunction isn't due to intentional tampering with evidence. Cops can't but know that should any court case result from a confrontation, their camera footage is evidence, and if you tamper with it, the court should be handing you your ass on a platter. You're entirely wrong that we don't need the courts now, we need courts precisely so that people who tamper with evidence, no matter what the profession is, are to be held accountable.

      --
      A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
    12. Re:Uh by tibit · · Score: 2

      We don't need such a law. A judge can and should impose contempt-of-court sanctions on those who tamper with evidence. If you have a camera and you're in a confrontation, there's no way to play silly and not know that should you tamper with the camera, you're tampering with evidence. If I was a judge, I'd toss whoever tampers with camera footage evidence, whether Joe the plumber or a cop or archbishop Canterbury, in jail for a week and have them pay for an ad in a major local paper admitting to the fact and proclaiming how sorry they are.

      --
      A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
    13. Re:Uh by tibit · · Score: 1

      Frankly said, given the slight loss of my privacy vs. loss of accountability for a force that's supposed to uphold the law, I have no problem with the loss of my privacy. And no, this is not a slippery slope.

      --
      A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
    14. Re:Uh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, but what's Canadian police brutality? A stern lecture while poking the suspect repeatedly?

    15. Re:Uh by AchilleTalon · · Score: 1

      Can you provide more details on this statement? What events are you referring to? What proofs they turn off their cameras do you have?

      --
      Achille Talon
      Hop!
    16. Re:Uh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do you really want people watching your video while you're having sex with a prostitute? I mean COME ON, people have a RIGHT to privacy!

    17. Re:Uh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If it is faulty and verifiably so, then the cop gets out of it. But a random fault at the exact moment it is needed that can't be verified? Really?

      You really want us to believe his camera just magically stopped working right when it was needed with nothing that could be verified wrong by either inspecting the camera or the footage to prove it?

    18. Re:Uh by _KiTA_ · · Score: 1

      A piece of tape over the lens disables the video recording, without damaging or destroying the device. For briefer times, the could just put their hand over it 'accidentally'.

      Yup, and the audio... well, the video we saw showed them sitting on one of the guy's chest (so he was forced to the ground, back first) while the officer beat the shit out of him, shouting "stop resisting" and "turn on your stomach." Which is impossible considering he was, you know, sitting on his chest restraining him.

      The audio would collaborate a "I was just trying to defend myself" claim.

    19. Re:Uh by _KiTA_ · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Can you provide more details on this statement? What events are you referring to? What proofs they turn off their cameras do you have?

      http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2013/05/24/edmonton-police-brutality-video_n_3332668.html

      You can see them turn the camera back on in the video when they discover they are being filmed.

      You can also watch as they sit on top of a prone man -- who was only guilty of littering (and presumably only if he left the scene after missing the garbage can) -- while restraining him on the ground, punching him repeatedly in the face.

      While doing so, with the video off but audio recording enabled, the police officer repeatedly shouts to stop resisting and to turn over -- which the victim obviously cannot do because he's, you know, being restrained against the ground.

      However, an audit of the audio would collaborate a "I was trying to get him to stop fighting me and lay down and he wouldn't" defense.

      Personally, I feel the officers should not be able to turn off their cameras on their own, instead requiring dispatch to send a signal to do so. I do not believe police officers should have an expectation of privacy while on duty, especially given the special authority we allot them as officers of the peace.

      There is a second, very similar, instance of this happening in Canada recently, which I believe is the reason this bill was proposed. Apparently the Edmonton police have a reputation not dissimilar to our own LAPD for corruption.

    20. Re:Uh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A judge can and should impose contempt-of-court sanctions on those who tamper with evidence.

      Yes they can and should, but will they? Here is the US, prosecutors and judges routinely REFUSE to prosecute police officers for perjury or evidence tampering. Even when there is overwhelming evidence of such.

      In the US, police camera footage is routinely "unavailable" if it is in any way exculpatory. Do a web search on the Seattle PD refusing video access, they have honed the game of "hide the evidence" to a fine art.

    21. Re:Uh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Both actions must therefore be punishable by immediate ejection from the police force, probably along with ability to own a gun.

    22. Re:Uh by mordjah · · Score: 1

      "I would approve this on any such officials whether it be Police, Military and even (ESPECIALLY) Politicians. We are their bosses and as such, we should have the ability to verify their actions. One of the pitfalls of being a public servant (even though many see the public as the enemy or a necessary evil at this point and see themselves as a corporate servant instead). The only thing that keeps me from asking for a live feed of this is the invasion of privacy of the citizens they deal with as part of their jobs."

      THIS

      --
      "A mind reader? That sounds like sci fi." "Honey, we live on a space ship"
  10. Laugh by koan · · Score: 0

    "the use of force by officers and assaults on officers drops by as much as 60%."

    I've always said they were just another gang.

    --
    "If any question why we died, Tell them because our fathers lied."
  11. Obligatory by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The use of force by officers and assaults BY officers drops by as much as 60% as well.

  12. An active camera... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    On every *person*, car, dog, street corner, tv, even a loaf of bread.

  13. Reduce assaults? by Ottawakismet · · Score: 0, Redundant

    It will reduce assaults on police officers? Maybe it will also reduce assaults by police officers too.

    1. Re:Reduce assaults? by KGIII · · Score: 1

      That's what the summary says.

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    2. Re:Reduce assaults? by nitehawk214 · · Score: 1

      They will be sure to turn the camera off before assaulting you.

      --
      I'm a good cook. I'm a fantastic eater. - Steven Brust
  14. As long as it goes both ways by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Sure, allow the cameras -- so long as they record audio and have no "off" button. Too often dashcams and such end up having 'technical problems' about the same time as suspects 'resist arrest'.

  15. As a victim of police lies and a destroyed life... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    I asked my lawyer "they recorded everything, right? Their dashcam had to have recorded everything, right? They have audio recorders on their uniform right? I saw the sign that asked them to turn off their recording when I went into booking."

    "No, AC, they did not, or at least, what they claim is no recordings."

    "But everything they said is a lie."

    "You're lucky they didn't claim you attacked them, just that you were hostile."

    I have not been able to find a job because this event comes up. I was divorced as a result. The glorious republic of Canada.

  16. RTFA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    From the linked to news item: -
    "They are not on all the time, but must be activated and police have to tell the person they are dealing with that they are being videotaped."
    So not worth a damn to spot misuse of police powers then.

    I put that little rule down to the Canadian sense of Fair play.

    Cop: Now sir, before I beat you senseless do you have an objection to being videotaped, its purely to be used for training purposes Ah!

    OR

    La Police: Maintenant, monsieur, avant que je vous battre insensé avez-vous une objection à être filmé, son purement à être utilisé à des fins de formation, ah!

    1. Re:RTFA by ceoyoyo · · Score: 1

      It's "eh?" not "ah!".

  17. This would be great if... by swamp_ig · · Score: 1

    it was 'always on' of course.

    There will be still some ability for the officer to turn it off however - think about what happens when they go to the bathroom for example. I'm not sure they'd be too keen on having that filmed.

    For best use case the camera would send the video footage over the phone network in real-time, along with a GPS and time-stamp information in every frame.

    That there almost guarantees a clean police force on the beat.

    1. Re:This would be great if... by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 0

      think about what happens when they go to the bathroom for example.

      With practice, most guys are able to pee without looking down.

    2. Re:This would be great if... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What about the police-women?

    3. Re:This would be great if... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I wouldn't advise them to pee standing regardless of where they are looking.

    4. Re:This would be great if... by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 0

      What about the police-women?

      Like most slashdotters, I am no expert in female anatomy, but I suspect that women would have even less need to look down. They don't even have to aim.

  18. Turn the tables by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If this comes to the USA, people need to wear T-shirts with language such as "JURY NULLIFICATION". This would force the prosecution to tamper with the evidence (blank out images of text) lest the evidence tamper the jury.

    1. Re:Turn the tables by just_a_monkey · · Score: 1

      For the non-USAians here, what do you mean? Are jurors not allowed to see the words "jury nullification", or what?

      --
      How inappropriate to call this planet Earth, when clearly it is Ocean.
    2. Re:Turn the tables by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      For the non-USAians here, what do you mean? Are jurors not allowed to see the words "jury nullification", or what?

      Defense lawyers aren't allowed to say them, and any juror who demonstrates knowledge of the concept during interviews will be rejected by the prosecution.

      I used to dread a jury summons. Still do, because last time I got one they just wasted my time and cancelled the selection. But I'll do my best to appear to be a normal dumb sonofabitch next time I get a summons, so I can actually be on a jury.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  19. Montreal citizens want a camera by 50000BTU_barbecue · · Score: 0
    on every public official. As a Montrealer, I am FED UP of this city's corruption! Never mind that it's a tiny, expensive, boring, conservative, dirty, poorly maintained and grey city, if I have to report every damn penny to two levels of government and have credit agencies know about every little thing I buy...

    I want to see every square inch of "public" office, I want to read every character of every email and hear every phone conversation.

    What's wrong with that? If I call a private company's phone line I can be recorded for "training purposes", why can't I listen to the people I *PAY* with my egregious taxes? I pay them to party with that money apparently.

    I'm fed up of this city and having the pigs film every interaction is just more reason to leave this joke of a city.

    "But it was nice when we visited!"

    This is usually said by people who can LEAVE this third-world joke.

    --
    Mostly random stuff.
    1. Re:Montreal citizens want a camera by KGIII · · Score: 1

      Actually, what I usually hear is people explaining how much better Canada is. Don't take that wrong. But, seriously, that's gist of the vast majority of comments I read from Canadians.

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    2. Re:Montreal citizens want a camera by Shados · · Score: 1

      So basically you're saying its a typical metro area? And compared to almost all the other metro areas in north america, its dirty cheap, liberal, well maintained and green. Aside a few US states, everywhere has to report $$$ to two levels of governments and the way the credit agencies operate in Canada is far better than in the US.

      Wake me up when you can't buy a decent 2 bedroom for 1 million+++ anymore.

    3. Re:Montreal citizens want a camera by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      What I usually hear is people explaining how much better *place* is. Don't take that wrong. But, seriously, that's gist of the vast majority of comments I read from *place*ians.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
  20. Re:As a victim of police lies and a destroyed life by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The glorious republic of Canada.

    As a real Canadian I'd have expected you to know that Canada isn't a republic.

  21. we already have that by AndyKron · · Score: 1

    FTA, we already have that where I live in the USA.

  22. A union that wants to do the right thing? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Have I slipped into some strange and wonderful parallel universe?

    1. Re:A union that wants to do the right thing? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Yes, you're now in the strange and wonderful universe where the conservative media's lies about unions aren't true.

    2. Re:A union that wants to do the right thing? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Their milk comes in bags, too.

    3. Re:A union that wants to do the right thing? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Have I stopped listening to Fox News and Rush Limbaugh for a few seconds?

      FTFY.

  23. Dead batteries... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Well I feel that batteries will become dead when there's no advantage for police.

    my 2 cents.

  24. Not always on, of course by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Sounds like a good idea, until you learn that the plan is for the cameras to be turned on at the officer's discretion only (as confirmed by the police union). You can bet that every time it could be used against an officer, the camera will be off ("forgot to turn it on in the heat of the moment, your honor!").

  25. It protects the police officers too. by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 1

    No false accusations.

    And much less likely to wander off into bad behavior.

    I personally think policemen should put a camera on when they put on the uniform and keep it on until they take it off.

    We also need to recognize that they are human and have more training and suspensions instead of firings for emotional failures as a balance against full time surveillance.

    --
    She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    1. Re:It protects the police officers too. by KGIII · · Score: 2

      What if they need to use the restroom?

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    2. Re:It protects the police officers too. by tibit · · Score: 1

      Yes, what about it? What, you think that you'll be showing the entire shift's worth of footage in court or on local TV news? Could people please stop with the reactionary "but think of xyz!" and actually think themselves?

      --
      A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
    3. Re:It protects the police officers too. by KGIII · · Score: 1

      I am thinking for myself and I think the officer, no matter what you think of his privacy rights, isn't always going to want that recorded even if it may only be viewed by a single person, leaked, or viewed ever. They have rights too. Can you please stop with the reactionary nonsense and actually think about someone other than yourself?

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    4. Re:It protects the police officers too. by dasunt · · Score: 1

      Maybe have a "sleep for x minutes" switch where it would stop recording, yet start recording again after a certain amount of time has passed. That would protect the privacy of restroom patrons, but disallow the excuse of "I forgot to turn it on".

    5. Re:It protects the police officers too. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're the reactionary one in this case. A camera can be turned off, covered, or left in the car. Engage brain next time.

    6. Re:It protects the police officers too. by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 1

      I had that exact thought after I posted the post above.

      It's a challenge. They could be accidentally videoing other guys in the restroom at the stalls in the mirror even if it were shoulder mounted.

      It would need to be addressed but it is an exception.

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    7. Re:It protects the police officers too. by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 1

      To be fair, I was proposing 100% coverage above.

      And I'm not normally for the police being able to turn off their own video but I can see a reason here. It's a challenge you don't see with dash mounted cameras.

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    8. Re:It protects the police officers too. by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      Fuck'em. No off switch or it's useless. They can wrap their tie around the lens while pissing. Not like that can happen by accident while beating the shit out of a citizen.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    9. Re:It protects the police officers too. by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 2

      Something like that seems reasonable enough. And if the camera footage is stopped other than as the officer walks into somewhere you would legitimately expect camera footage to be stopped, fall back to whatever presumption of tainted evidence position you would otherwise take if the camera "fell off accidentally" etc.

      Alternatively, any officer can turn their own recording equipment off but it will make a clearly audible noise while disabled so they can't forget to turn it back on again and anyone they approach will know that recording is disabled. Only their shift supervisor or other responsible senior officer can turn the device on at the start of the shift and fully off again at the end. And to prevent tampering, any officer whose equipment isn't making proper noises at both the start and end of a shift is in trouble if they didn't call it in and return to base for a replacement immediately.

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    10. Re:It protects the police officers too. by KGIII · · Score: 1

      It seems logical to me that there should be an disabling switch but that footage from immediately before, and after, should be considered evidence as well. As it already records audio they should have a required vocal documentation method for disabling the device. Such as, "This is officer Tanner badge number 18117 and the current time is 1754. I am intentionally disabling the recording (I'm unsure if we need a reason or not but I'd err on the side of caution and suggest that we do)."

      Hmm... Maybe an estimated duration could be recorded too?

      Any other thoughts? (I don't think I saw you mention it actually, I may have missed it. It seemed strange that nobody was bringing it up but then, well, I figured we all love to hate the police so nobody thought of it.)

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    11. Re:It protects the police officers too. by KGIII · · Score: 1

      No, I don't think you understand the definition of that word. It's fashionable to hate the police, I understand that and there's quite a bit of justification for that, but they still have rights. We can't trample on the rights of those we don't like because we don't like them. We need a reason to do that. They're innocent until proven guilty too. It sucks but that's freedom for you. We all have it or none of us have it.

      You, my good sir, are being a reactionary. Knee-jerk responses to emotional stimulation is no way to create reasonable law.

      --
      "So long and thanks for all the fish."
    12. Re:It protects the police officers too. by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 1

      I don't hate police- I donate to the police survivors fund.

      That being said, I recognize many are bullies and function as gangs.
      They selectively enforce the law on many criteria and they abuse their power often. Usually in small ways- but often in big ways.

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    13. Re:It protects the police officers too. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What if they need to use the restroom?

      http://youtu.be/pdE83FX-Mto?t=35s

  26. But what about restroom breaks? by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 1

    It seems like these cameras might produce a lot of accidental porn.

    --
    She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    1. Re:But what about restroom breaks? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The field of view of the camera would be 180 degrees, so no worries as the donut filled bellies will block view of any tiny penis that are the trademark of people who feel the need to overcompensate by becoming a government paid bully.

    2. Re:But what about restroom breaks? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      What about female officers?
      What about other people in both male and female restrooms? The camera catching two frames of someones wiener at the piss stall or even something mundane as a random woman in in her bra while changing shirts... there'll be lots of such footage, and I'm pretty sure not everyone is happy with being recorded in a public restroom.

      The best solution is probably to offer a button to black out the video and sound, but record GPS location and timestamp all the time.
      Missing data for 2 min where we see a restroom door at the beginning and at the end, the GPS data pinpointing the shitter? No problem, no inconvenience, just a flip of a button.
      Missing data during a road stop and the civilians stopped claim sexual harassment afterwards? Big problem, for the cop, he'd better had the recording on.

      captcha: humored

    3. Re:But what about restroom breaks? by tibit · · Score: 1

      So what that there will be such footage? It normally has nothing to do with any court cases and doesn't have to be introduced into evidence. You don't need to have the entire shift's footage in evidence, and even if you decide to, the judge can enforce some rules as to access to such evidence, up to and including holding whoever leaks it or behaves inappropriately in accessing the evidence in contempt. It's a solved problem, don't make up dumb excuses, pwetty please.

      --
      A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
    4. Re:But what about restroom breaks? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Let's repeat, there's not much else to do, maybe this time it'll sink in...

      [...] there'll be lots of such footage, and I'm pretty sure not everyone is happy with being recorded in a public restroom.
      Basically you'd not only allow official state agents to be true "Glassholes", but make it mandatory for them. Who cares whether any of this is ever sees a court, as with internet provider trace data and web tracking: it may or may not be used for/against you, but the problem lies with the wrong stuff[0] being stored somewhere in the first place.

      Apart from that, do you have any reasonable argument against the proposed solution?

      [0] it's in your interest for some data to be stored, e.g. all questions and answers in a conversation between you and the cop, but not other things, in particular accidental footage in places where you have a reasonable expectation of selective privacy. If the cop can't provide recording to back up his claims, he has something to hide, because his finger is on the button and not filming is a conscious and deliberate change from the default.

      captcha: contrary

    5. Re:But what about restroom breaks? by Patman64 · · Score: 1

      They can sell it and then they can stop using bullshit speed traps to raise money.

  27. Good IF... by FuzzNugget · · Score: 2

    All footage is automatically and continually uploaded to servers located in a branch of government with a vested interest in preservation of the footage.

    There is no power switch, it is always on, self contained and hardened against direct access without custom, specialized tools.

    Any time footage is "missing", the officer is automatically suspended with pay pending an investigation. If it's determined to be a genuine malfunction, the officer can resume work. If it can be reasonably demonstrated, however, that the officer deliberately disabled, tampered with or obstructed the device, they should be forced to pay back any wages received during the suspension and charged for tampering with evidence.

    But, really, who am I kidding... in reality, this will be no different than dash cams in every cruiser. Any time there is a hint of officer abuse or brutality, the footage will be mysteriously and conveniently "unavailable", there will be no real oversight to the whereabouts and, "yes, your honor, the camera just happened to malfunction during the exact time of the brutality accusations against me," will be accepted by the courts.

    Until we have real oversight by people who genuinely have the public interest in mind over their own, this won't change anything.

  28. What about assaults BY policemen. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Because they seem vastly more common nowadays.

    Or will the camera switch off when the baton and pepper spray are taken out to start the beating?

  29. assaults on officers do drop, not why you think... by SuperBanana · · Score: 5, Interesting

    the use of force by officers and assaults on officers drops by as much as 60%

    Uh huh, and do you know why that is? That's because if you annoy a cop, you get charged with "assault on a police officer" even if you didn't touch them. With a video recorder serving as a witness, the cops know they can't engage in what is commonly called "testilying."

    In my city, the charges cops love to slap anyone they don't like with include AOAPO and "disturbing the peace" - the latter of which basically consists of "a crowd gathered because of you."

    I knew someone - a sub-5-foot-tall, sub-100-lb girl - whose birthday party was ended by cops because it was too loud. Fair enough. She provides her information to one cop, and then a second cop comes in and asks her for her personal information again a few minutes later. She asks him why - she just gave it to the other cop. He refuses to say why, and she asks him again why he can't get the information from the other cop.

    Next thing she remembers, her head is slammed on the countertop and she's in cuffs. Spent the night in jail, and the next day in court answering charges including disorderly conduct, resisting arrest, and assault on a police officer.

    The judge looks at her, then looks at the cop, who's a burly nearly-6-foot-tall dude, then looks at the charges and says "Seriously? SHE resisted arrest and assaulted YOU? You've got to be kidding me. Dismissed."

    Wasted thousands of dollars in legal fees, because some dickhead cop broke the law and filed false charges, lied in his report, and lied in court.

  30. Almost no point in them by Garybaldy · · Score: 1

    The police will just turn them off, cover them. missing footage etc.

    1. Re:Almost no point in them by PPH · · Score: 2

      That demonstrates premeditation in whatever follows.

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
    2. Re:Almost no point in them by Hamsterdan · · Score: 1

      SO? It's not like they will be charged with anything. In most cases, the officers are always found not guilty.

      --
      I've got better things to do tonight than die.
  31. Also, false complaints drop too... by mrbrown1602 · · Score: 2

    As somebody who frequently works with law enforcement, they get blamed for a lot of ridiculous (and completely false) stuff - I've seen officers get accused of assaults (and then exonerated when surveillance footage from a building shows they didn't even touch the suspect). A lot of our officers just recently got uniform-mounted cameras and the footage always shows that the complaints are completely unfounded.

    1. Re:Also, false complaints drop too... by ebno-10db · · Score: 1

      they get blamed for a lot of ridiculous (and completely false) stuff - I've seen officers get accused of assaults (and then exonerated when surveillance footage from a building shows they didn't even touch the suspect)

      I don't doubt that, and I, and I suspect most of the people here, have no problem with video being used to exonerate police of false charges. My concern, and that of many others here, is whether it will be reliably used in the other direction, to exonerate people accused of assaulting the police, resisting arrest, etc., or whether "technical difficulties" will frequently arise. I don't think that's an unreasonable suspicion.

      BTW, your sig says you're an attorney, and you refer to yourself "as somebody who frequently works with law enforcement". In what capacity? That's hardly an accusation, but would be reasonable in terms of full disclosure.

    2. Re:Also, false complaints drop too... by hedwards · · Score: 1

      That's not really relevant seeing as it would be the court that does the exonerating.

      The cameras ultimately, function to protect both the officer as well as the people that the officer comes into contact with. Cameras aren't perfect, but they're a shade better than having nothing but witness testimony from both sides. Which is never quite objective, no matter how honest the people are.

    3. Re:Also, false complaints drop too... by ebno-10db · · Score: 1

      That's not really relevant seeing as it would be the court that does the exonerating.

      If you want to play pedant, come back on Tuesday when I play it too. I suspect you understood what I meant.

      The cameras ultimately, function to protect both the officer as well as the people that the officer comes into contact with.

      You're overlooking the big issue on this thread, that the cameras are turned on by the officer, so there can be lots of "I forgot in the heat of the moment". Alternatively there can be technical difficulties at convenient times. If it weren't for that issue, I'd be 100% in favor of the cameras.

  32. Re:As a victim of police lies and a destroyed life by realityimpaired · · Score: 2

    Dominion of Canada... constitutional monarchy.

    But I expect he was, badly, trying to make a comparison to the Democratic Peoples' Republic of Korea or some such. What really tips his hand that he's not actually a Canadian is that the question that shows up on job applications in this country is "have you ever been convicted of an offense for which a pardon has not been granted." It's ridiculously easy to get a pardon in this country, an issue which has been the subject of national-level debate in parliament. If he's too stupid to fill out a form and wait 6-8 weeks for his pardon to come through, then he deserves to be flipping burgers, which is a job where they don't even ask that question.

    Simply having been accused and acquitted of a crime is *not* grounds for refusing to hire somebody and doesn't even show up on a normal background check. There's absolutely no reason to mention it during the hiring process.

    Besides which, most employers won't actually deny you a job if you answer "yes" to that question. They just want to know about it going into it. We had to let somebody go a few months ago because he'd lied and put "no" after having been convicted of fraud, and the irony is that if he had simply said "yes", it wouldn't have affected his eligibility for the job. I guess it's not fraud if you're honest about it. ;)

  33. Camera's aren't there to prevent bad behavior.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    .. by the cops. In fact, if you read the plan, the push for the cameras is being accompanied by pushing a new law that would make evidence from the cameras inadmissible in cases AGAINST the cops, but admissible without question in cases against YOU (i.e. it can't be thrown out of court for any reason).

    1. Re:Camera's aren't there to prevent bad behavior.. by ebno-10db · · Score: 1

      if you read the plan, the push for the cameras is being accompanied by pushing a new law that would make evidence from the cameras inadmissible in cases AGAINST the cops, but admissible without question in cases against YOU (i.e. it can't be thrown out of court for any reason).

      Do you have a link for that? I didn't see it in any of TFA's.

    2. Re:Camera's aren't there to prevent bad behavior.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Unfortunately not. But, believe it or not, news does get communicated by means other than the Internet from time to time. This is something I heard on the radio the other morning on the way to work. I believe it was a CBS news syndicated program.

      In any case, what the reporter said was that the union chief was pressing the legislature for a law that would prohibit the use of anything the cameras recorded in any civil or criminal cases against the police. There wasn't much more said than that, except that one of Montreal's city council members was in the process of drafting such legislation and intended to introduce a bill that would do that and also make the video evidence always-admissible in cases brought by the state, so long as the video could not be edited by anyone prior to the trial.

  34. That's a statistic? by ebno-10db · · Score: 2
    FTA:

    The union says in other jurisdictions where police officers are equipped with point-of-view cameras, the use of force by officers and assaults on officers drops by as much as 60%.

    That's a meaningless "statistic", because it's actually two statistics combined. How much did "the use of force by officers" drop by and how much did "assaults on officers" drop by? Considering how much the police love to be monitored when on duty, I wouldn't trust any proposal like this coming from a police union.

    1. Re:That's a statistic? by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      That's a meaningless "statistic", because it's actually two statistics combined.

      That's a good observation.

      Considering how much the police love to be monitored when on duty,

      How much do they like being monitored? Do you know, or are you just guessing based on a few sensational news stories? It could be completely opposite of what you think, as this guy suggests with his anecdote.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    2. Re:That's a statistic? by ebno-10db · · Score: 3, Informative

      How much do they like being monitored? Do you know, or are you just guessing based on a few sensational news stories?

      I don't know of any studies on the matter, so yes it's based on anecdotes. There have been a lot of what you call "sensational news stories" about police "objecting" to being photographed or video recorded, where "objecting" can anything from falsely yelling that it's illegal (in fact it's expressly protected) to illegally grabbing the camera to finding some excuse to arrest the person (which means their equipment is confiscated and erased, if not damaged). Mysteriously the charges are usually dismissed, which often means there were no grounds for them in the first place.

      I even witnessed one such event as a teenager where my friend started photographing someone getting arrested (in the park, not at some demonstration) and was told in no uncertain terms to get lost or risk being arrested.

      I also worked on an early vehicle locating system, that would report back to base station where a vehicle was. This was a long time ago when such an idea was novel. Pilot systems were installed in ambulances in one city and patrol cars in another. The ambulance drivers never had any problem with it. Units were returned from patrol cars with anything from wires ripped out to, in one case, a shotgun blast though it.

      It could be completely opposite of what you think, as this guy [slashdot.org] suggests with his anecdote.

      He wrote:

      A lot of our officers just recently got uniform-mounted cameras and the footage always shows that the complaints are completely unfounded.

      First, how do I know he isn't talking about selective monitoring (use it when police are innocent, don't turn it on or "lose" it when they're not)? That's the biggest issue on this thread. Second, he wrote "always shows that the complaints are completely unfounded". Always?

    3. Re:That's a statistic? by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      he wrote "always shows that the complaints are completely unfounded". Always?

      It's really possible for an anecdote.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    4. Re:That's a statistic? by sjames · · Score: 1

      First, how do I know he isn't talking about selective monitoring (use it when police are innocent, don't turn it on or "lose" it when they're not)? That's the biggest issue on this thread. Second, he wrote "always shows that the complaints are completely unfounded". Always?

      If it's like the dash cams, tghen yes ALWAYS. bcause when the complaints are founded the video goes missing.

  35. Re:As a victim of police lies and a destroyed life by tibit · · Score: 2

    I'm sorry that your significant other was silly enough not to be able to deal with what the life has served you both. I can't understand such relationships. If you're not in "it" together, then what's the point? Lower taxes?

    --
    A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
  36. So, when you are stopped ... by PPH · · Score: 4, Funny

    ... look directly into the camera. Address your remarks to "ladies and gentlemen of the jury", "your honor" or whatever is appropriate. Refer to the officer in the third person.

    --
    Have gnu, will travel.
    1. Re:So, when you are stopped ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why play theater when in 999 out of 1000 cases the footage will be stored for a certain amount of years and then discarded without the need to be seen by anyone, since nothing notable happened?

    2. Re:So, when you are stopped ... by PPH · · Score: 1

      To make a point. That is: Cops have played dumb or corrupt for so many years that their judgment and testimony are no longer given respect in a court of law. They are just the 'muscle' in the judicial system. You address your remarks to th people that really matter.

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
  37. Re:assaults on officers do drop, not why you think by 0111+1110 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Spent the night in jail, and the next day in court answering charges including disorderly conduct, resisting arrest, and assault on a police officer.

    Something very similar happened to me. The cop even charged me with assault on a police officer with a deadly weapon. A much more serious charge. A felony which could have resulted in many years in prison. Because beating me nearly to death just wasn't sufficient apparently. That deadly weapon charge mysteriously vanished when I appeared in court.

    The judge looks at her, then looks at the cop, who's a burly nearly-6-foot-tall dude, then looks at the charges and says "Seriously? SHE resisted arrest and assaulted YOU? You've got to be kidding me. Dismissed."

    Unfortunately, being male, I didn't get any such leniency from the judge and now I have "assault and battery on a police officer" on my record. In addition to every other contempt of cop charge the asshole could think of. I wasn't found guilty. I pleaded something similar to "no contest" because the plea bargain offer had no jail time. Just probation and a small fine. I paid thousands in legal fees and have lingering memory problems as a result of the beating I received.

    Since my contact with the police was due to a roadblock, I plan to either move to one of the few states where such things are illegal or leave the country entirely for a place where the police are not so violent and dangerous.

    If only the cop who beat me had been forced to wear a camera which was required to be on for any of the common contempt of cop charges to be allowed I would have been saved at least from the false charges. I would probably still have been severely injured or even killed but that would have been the end of it.

    --
    Quite an experience to live in fear, isn't it? That's what it is to be a slave.
  38. Why is this marked as insightful? by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 2

    There is no citation or evidence provided that this would be how the system works. If you believe that is something the police might want, fine, but that is different than claiming it is.

    Something isn't "insightful" because you want to agree with it.

    1. Re:Why is this marked as insightful? by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      Something isn't "insightful" because you want to agree with it.

      Very true

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    2. Re:Why is this marked as insightful? by HornWumpus · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Look at the history of dash cams. They always 'fail' or tapes are lost when the footage is bad for the cops.

      Until the track record changes it is safe to assume the video will never show the cops applying some 'stick time'. Cops will simply have their hats fall off/shirt pocket flap fall over the camera etc.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    3. Re:Why is this marked as insightful? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It's insightful when you review the number of alleged beatings, forced searches, racial profiling harassment, and other incidents in which the police cruiser records are somehow "unavailable" and the video evidence from bystanders with cell phones directly contradicts police testimony.

      It's even more interesting when you review the tendency of police with cruiser videos to script their movements so that fraudulent claims about the motorist behavior is not documented. Hop over to Youtube, there is a *lot* of what seems very real citizen video in direct conflict with police accounts of their own behavior, as a matter of court record.

    4. Re:Why is this marked as insightful? by HiThere · · Score: 2

      Since the system is still in the proposal stage, there can be no reasonable claim that it is implmented in the way described. Therefore it is clear that the original statement was a statement of belief about how it would be implemented.

      It would be nice if there weren't a lot of evidence in support of their attitude.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    5. Re:Why is this marked as insightful? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Listen junior, if you're too dense for normal conversation maybe you should head back to liking things on Facebook as your contribution.

    6. Re:Why is this marked as insightful? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Citation required

    7. Re:Why is this marked as insightful? by hoboroadie · · Score: 2

      I like the sixty percent reduction in police being forced to use force.
      Interesting.

      --
      They feared that it could be used to suppress protest or support unpopular rule.
  39. Re:As a victim of police lies and a destroyed life by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It was a bad joke, you are correct.

    I was fired from a job because I refused to accept a modification to the employment contract which stated that I would be fired without notice if found guilty. I was not found guilty 2 years after the original allegation.

    Arrests show up on background checks. And they ask you about it. I applied for one job where they said the background check was important. I mentioned this allegation to them and they said nope.

    So maybe it works for you. Not for me. Keep in mind that I'm 6'4'', 230 pounds, muscular and I was accused of grabbing someone violently... Which never happened.

  40. Then they gotta find French playback machines! by kawabago · · Score: 1

    Their hats could take off as drones too!

  41. Ya we really need a law like this by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Basically a law saying that if a police officer is supposed to have a camera running on something, and that footage is unavailable for whatever reason, then their testimony is excluded. So if they are giving testimony about a time when they don't have a camera and aren't supposed to, like they are off duty, then their testimony is treated like the testimony of any other person. However if they were supposed to have a camera at the time and the footage is gone, well then they can't offer any testimony as to what happened during that time.

    It would give strong incentive to keep them on and running, and make sure the footage is kept. Otherwise, cases would get lost due to lack of evidence.

    1. Re:Ya we really need a law like this by HornWumpus · · Score: 1

      'My hat was knocked off in the altercation/My tie got tangled in my camera/badge/mud got on the lens'.

      They will have useless footage and audio. Cops will get used to producing audio transcripts while beating people to pulps. 'Stop resisting!' etc.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
  42. Should'a been done long ago by WOOFYGOOFY · · Score: 1

    What if you knew here and /
    Found her dead on the ground ?

    -- Neil Young

  43. Re:As a victim of police lies and a destroyed life by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    They actually stopped giving pardons and replaced it with some other Harper program that still allows people to see that you have been convicted of something. The old process took 6 months to a year to complete btw, and cost a few hundred. The new one cost over $700. This current government would rather have people unable to rejoin society after a criminal conviction as they have strong ties to US jail profiteers and are planning to privatize Canadian prisons as well. (I AM Canadian and in government)

  44. Two conditions by Todd+Knarr · · Score: 2

    I'd agree with this on three conditions:

    1. The camera is continuously active and the video stream uploaded and stored for a minimum of 90 days.
    2. The complete, unedited recording shall be made available to the defense no less than 14 days before trial is scheduled and in any event no more than 14 days after charges are filed. Failure to supply the video shall be grounds for immediate dismissal of all charges against all defendants.
    3. Absence of any video recording of relevant events for any non-trivial part of the time period in question is automatic grounds for the dismissal of all charges against all defendants in the case in question. It's also grounds for felony destruction of evidence charges against the officers whose cameras failed to record events and the officers responsible for monitoring and preserving the recordings. The burden shall be on the police to show that the failure was due to failure of the camera hardware or the network link.
    1. Re:Two conditions by del_diablo · · Score: 1

      Mod up.

  45. Cynical for a Reason by neoshroom · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The union says in other jurisdictions where police officers are equipped with point-of-view cameras, the use of force by officers and assaults on officers drops by as much as 60%.

    This sort of tells us what we already knew. That basically most of the force police use already is applied illegally applied or over-applied. The camera is forcing police to act more ethically, which reduces their use of force, but also hints that they widely act unethically at present. It isn't unique to Canada.

    --
    Big apple, new Yorik, undig it, something's unrotting in Edenmark.
    1. Re:Cynical for a Reason by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Did you notice the "and assaults on officers" part of the statement?

      It turns out that most police officers in most places are actually decent people just trying to do a job under sometimes difficult conditions. While there are too many bad apples in the police and any abuse of powers/equipment they are allowed that the rest of us aren't is to be condemned and punished, there are also bad applies among the general public and abuse of the police officers by anyone else is also to be condemned and punished.

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    2. Re:Cynical for a Reason by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The major difference here is police officers wear a uniform, and as such their behavior is perceived to representative of everyone wearing that same uniform.

      The same way you trust a person in a nurses uniform to tend to your wounds, or injuries, you should be able to trust a person in a police officers uniform to uphold the law. Unfortunately, when the 'decent' police turn a blind eye to the bad apples activities, the uniform as a whole suffers for it, and public trust goes down.

  46. Camera that starts when you react to a shock by fluor2 · · Score: 1

    I would really like a camera that starts recording when I experience something shocking or similar. I guess it's a way to detect if we go into some kind of temporary shock.

  47. Sorry, I forgot to turn it on by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It all depends on how they deal with the typical use of interrogation/dash/badge cameras in the US, where "somehow" the camera gets turned off just before the suspect "accidentally" falls down three flights of stairs. Dozens of examples of this exist on Youtube.

  48. I hope they will install a weatherproof camera... by ctrl-alt-canc · · Score: 1

    ...or are they going to stop washing their uniforms ?!?

  49. Hopefully coming to the US by detain · · Score: 1

    I think this should be required on all cops in the US as well. It would help protect both the police and citizens.

    --
    http://interserver.net/
  50. Lets get this shit in america by fazey · · Score: 1

    Lets get this in the US.

    We the People: Force all Law enforcement officers to wear unform embedded cameras
    I'm sure anti-spam protection will slaughter the link, so just search for it on We The People.

    1. Re:Lets get this shit in america by j-beda · · Score: 1

      The link works, but I think it will not be searchable until it gets a few hundred signatures - you gotta promote it widely on your own.

      https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/force-all-law-enforcement-officers-wear-uniform-embedded-cameras/Mx2KDCtl

    2. Re:Lets get this shit in america by fazey · · Score: 1

      Yea, it said 150. Feel free to help promote it!

      Although I am sure the FOP will lobby against it.

    3. Re:Lets get this shit in america by j-beda · · Score: 1

      Well, four down, 99,996 to go....

  51. 60% of "assaulting an officer" are falsified by Nadaka · · Score: 1

    This indicates 60% of "assaulting an officer" charges are falsified and 40% uses of force are unnecessary. Who watches the watchmen indeed.

  52. It isn't what you think it is. by neoshroom · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Yes, I did notice it. I'm not sure if you are familiar with police practices, but "assault on an officer" is often used as a blanket crime by police to arrest people in any situation where the police use force, especially if they use improper or excessive force. It is completely logical to me that both would drop by 60% because very often they are the same thing.

    That is, often a police officer will aggress against a person for whatever reason and then later claim that the person they aggressed against was the agressor. It basically allows an officer to arrest or even beat anyone up for anything and is a much more common tactic than you think. When the citizen gets to court, do you think a judge or jury will believe the police officer or the citizen?

    We hear a lot about the minority of cases where a bystander taped the scene and the police did something wrong, but you don't hear about the majority where nobody was there to video tape it.

    --
    Big apple, new Yorik, undig it, something's unrotting in Edenmark.
    1. Re:It isn't what you think it is. by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 2

      That's all fair enough, but you appear to be talking about specific oddities where US law redefines common language in specific and counter-intuitive ways. That doesn't necessarily mean anyone else in the world does so, and I see nothing in the context of the original quote to suggest that it was referring to any US jurisdiction.

      From an outsider's point of view, the US authorities and in particular US LEOs seem to have a much more adversarial relationship with the citizens they allegedly protect than most other places. For example, here in the UK, "policing by consent" is the traditional stance, and even today most citizens, politicians, and police officers (of all ranks) tend to react with some hostility to any suggestion of changing to a more US-style approach.

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    2. Re:It isn't what you think it is. by neoshroom · · Score: 1

      True, my comments were US-centric. The article says the study where the use of the cameras dropped assaults by 60% was in another jurisdiction, but doesn't state whether that jurisdiction is within Canada, the US or elsewhere.

      --
      Big apple, new Yorik, undig it, something's unrotting in Edenmark.
  53. everything boils down to your penis replacement. by publiclurker · · Score: 1

    doesn't it.

  54. photo in second link by Cyko_01 · · Score: 1

    notice how the officer is now standing at a 90 degree angle to the person he is talking with? Seems they figured out how to subvert that countermeasure pretty quickly. Also an officer will never approach your vehicle door head-on either, they always walk along the side of your car and poke there head around to corner into your window - they are trained to do it this way because it is safer. The only thing this would really be useful for is when pursuing a fleeing suspect

  55. Assaults on officers by Firethorn · · Score: 5, Interesting

    As a counterpoint, I've seen quite a few cases where somebody ends up being charged with 'assaulting an officer' more or less for arguing with him.

    I've seen videos of it. Sure, the person is normally being a douche while running his mouth a mile a minute and is sometimes failing to take action to officer directions that require active movement like 'Turn around', 'get on your knees', etc... But does failing to produce ID count as assaulting a police officer? Threatening a lawsuit? Complaining that the stop is illegal?

    These charges normally end up dropped, but my point would be that if officers think they can get away with charges like this when the interaction is being caught on their car's camera, what are they doing when they don't think they're being video taped?

    Maybe, knowing that they're being recorded, the officers are actually practicing their de-escalation techniques and they're working.

    --
    I don't read AC A human right
  56. Not 'Good/Bad' Cop, 'Good/Bad' Department by Firethorn · · Score: 2

    I've come to believe that you don't so much have good or bad police officers. What you have is good or bad police DEPARTMENTS. The difference in local police culture can be tremendous.

    I'll try to boil it down a bit: Basically, take a brand new cop. They run the range of idealistic and great to power tripping and corrupt. Good and Bad, but most are in the middle. Then they get to their first department. A good department will show the bad eggs the door rather quickly, provide good role models to the middle run recruits, making them good officers. A bad department will often do much the opposite - driving the idealistic good officers away(remember the intelligence test where you wouldn't be hired if you scored too high?), providing shelter(often at great expense in lawsuits!) to the bad ones, and showing the middle ground recruits bad habits and procedures that they pick up, becoming worse than when they were recruited.

    This is why you can have comparable districts with OOMs worth of difference in lawsuits, corruption trials, etc... But there's a huge difference between a department with half a dozen lawsuits a year, most of which end up dropped, and a department that's paying millions of taxpayer dollars in a dozen settled wrongful death lawsuits every year. Oh, and has a case in the supreme court for possibly unconstitutional discriminatory practices.

    I've seen the difference in the military with how the supervisors are.

    --
    I don't read AC A human right
    1. Re:Not 'Good/Bad' Cop, 'Good/Bad' Department by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      I've come to believe that you don't so much have good or bad police officers.

      Sucker. Any cop who covers for bad cops is a bad cop. Done and done. When you take an oath to protect and serve and then abuse that oath, you're a bad person. QED.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    2. Re:Not 'Good/Bad' Cop, 'Good/Bad' Department by Firethorn · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Any cop who covers for bad cops is a bad cop. Done and done.

      Did you read my post beyond the first sentence? Bad cops cover for bad cops, making for whole bad departments. Good cops don't, quickly weeding out bad cops, and ensuring 'middling' cops are corrected whenever they stray even a little, keeping them on the straight and narrow.

      You have a bad department it's a royal pain to clean up. You have to fire huge gobs of corrupt/bad officers, retrain the ones you can salvage, etc...

      The bad department theory helps explain why some departments have so many more problems than others, why so many cops don't see problems - because there aren't problems in their view. The bad cops all run together, and often know 'which' cops they can and cannot act up around.

      --
      I don't read AC A human right
    3. Re:Not 'Good/Bad' Cop, 'Good/Bad' Department by Patman64 · · Score: 1

      I think you're right. The "Just a Few Bad Apples" excuse for abuse of power falls flat when there are entire departments of officers who will happily cover for each other, even in cases of outright murder. What kind of culture is being fostered probably has the largest effect.

    4. Re:Not 'Good/Bad' Cop, 'Good/Bad' Department by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Did you read my post beyond the first sentence?

      No, because it was an apologetic waste of my time. There is no such thing as a bad department, because a department is a legal fiction. There are only bad cops.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    5. Re:Not 'Good/Bad' Cop, 'Good/Bad' Department by Firethorn · · Score: 1

      because a department is a legal fiction.

      Say what? Apologetic? Yeah right. I'm a big one on saying that corporate personhood is a legal fiction, but even I'll fully admit that a corporation is effectively a real thing. Same deal with police departments. The NYPD, for example, has over a 200 year history, with a distinctive culture, history, organizational structure, etc...

      I'm not trying to say police departments are people. They're organizations made of people. But said structures have real effects, large and small.

      It also helps explain why there's so many good cops(I know, you don't believe they exist), when there's also so many bad ones, without the bad ones being turned in. The answer is simple: Bad cops don't generally move in the same circles as good ones. Kind of like how I, a computer guy, don't know if the vehicle maintenance guys are screwing up. Because I go there maybe once in a blue moon. Even within a single precinct, the vice cops might not know what the homicide cops are doing. Beat cops are isolated from both, etc...

      The isolation isn't complete, of course, and I used 'department' in a generic sense - it could be the whole organization, a single precinct, even a single team within the organization. The important part is whether the organization as a whole has working methods to find and remove bad cops. Many departments actually do - but we don't hear about them on the news.

      There are only bad cops.

      Never said there weren't. It's just that I don't think the emphasis needs to be on bad officers. It needs to be on bad departments. The officers will follow.

      Just saying 'There are only bad cops' doesn't help solve the problem.

      --
      I don't read AC A human right
  57. I 2nd that by bussdriver · · Score: 1

    I 2nd the motion and move for a vote.

  58. inevitable by AlreadyStarted · · Score: 1

    Personally I think this is the inevitable future for law enforcement, and I couldn't be happier about it. Absolutely everyone benefits from a complete A/V record of an officers activity. Except bad cops and actual criminals, but I don't really feel for them.

  59. Prostitution laws... by Firethorn · · Score: 1

    Your post reminded me of something funny.

    Except for limited sections of 1 state, prostitution is illegal in the USA. IE you cannot legally pay or receive money for sex.

    However, producing pornography IS legal.

    Set up a shell business where you pay to have sex ON TAPE, then never release the footage (Amateur/not good enough/whatever), and you're still good to go.

    Just remember to keep the videos, logs, maybe even spend some money on occasion 'editing' said footage. Keep logs of EVERYTHING.

    Oh, and consult a lawyer in your local are beforehand, I'm not a lawyer, and laws vary. It shouldn't need to be said, but while I object to anti-prostitution laws as they are now, if you're going to use a 'we're making legal porn' excuse, you'd better be able to convince a jury that you ARE in the business, even if you aren't particularly successful.

    --
    I don't read AC A human right
    1. Re:Prostitution laws... by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      I have repeatedly wondered why this is not a major business. Nobody else knows either. Seems like if everyone fills out the paperwork then you're golden. Another option would be to use automatic image recognition techniques to simply blur faces, or put masks on them (trollface?) etc, and then release the videos. You could also cover up distinguishing birthmarks and tattoos with software. You sell access to the videos online for a low low price and you make money coming and going.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    2. Re:Prostitution laws... by Firethorn · · Score: 1

      Who knows, it might actually already be a business, but the states/feds are keeping quiet about it in the hope it doesn't spread?

      I figure that it's too much like work. The whole idea with paying for sex is that it's quick and easy. It's a pain in the arse to set up a 'proper' porn company, especially if you're not actually selling videos to make up for the expense.

      As for selling online for a low price - I'd say it's difficult to do even on the cheap - the market is saturated by superior quality stuff. Sex that looks good on camera isn't anywhere near as fun as doing it for the sex itself.

      Ergo, you'd be lucky to make enough money to cover the hosting expenses. But then, you can always be 'forever hopeful' and point out that something like 80% of new businesses fail within 3 years.

      Finally, 99% of hooker/john arrests are for the stupid poor ones as is. IE street walkers and the ones who pick them up. Proper 'call-girl' services are hardly ever touched; they're discrete enough to not generate complaints, and are a pain in the butt to investigate.

      --
      I don't read AC A human right
    3. Re:Prostitution laws... by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      As for selling online for a low price - I'd say it's difficult to do even on the cheap - the market is saturated by superior quality stuff. Sex that looks good on camera isn't anywhere near as fun as doing it for the sex itself.

      If the internets have taught me anything it is that there are people who will pay for anything.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    4. Re:Prostitution laws... by bhiestand · · Score: 1

      I've asked the same thing for a while (and here on /.). As for selling the videos online, Big Sister in the Czech Republic did this. The sex was free for male guests, but they had to pay a small entrance fee and sign the contracts.

      --
      SWM seeks new sig for a brief fling
  60. Re:assaults on officers do drop, not why you think by Firethorn · · Score: 2

    I wasn't found guilty. I pleaded something similar to "no contest" because the plea bargain offer had no jail time.

    Guess what, you have that on the record because "no contest" is effectively the same as pleading guilty. As a result, you may find moving to another country incredibly difficult. Heck, even Canada will demand thousands in fees and professional document creation(IE lawyers filling out forms) before they'll let you in.

    Of course, I hate how our current system allows police and prosecutors to effectively punish people without ever finding them guilty of anything. Legal fees alone can ruin people.

    --
    I don't read AC A human right
  61. Re:everything boils down to your penis replacement by noh8rz10 · · Score: 1

    i dont get it. wrong thread?

  62. Accessory After The Fact by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ACCESSORY AFTER THE FACT
    Whoever, knowing that an offense has been committed, receives, relieves, comforts or assists the offender in order to hinder or prevent his apprehension, trial or punishment, is an accessory after the fact; one who knowing a felony to have been committed by another, receives, relieves, comforts, or assists the felon in order to hinder the felon's apprehension, trial, or punishment. U.S.C. 18 //

    There are two kinds of cops:
    1) Bad cops and
    2) Accessories after the fact.

    LOEs have legal sanction to lie in any interaction with a “suspect” and routinely do. That juries continue to accept the word of not just habitual liers, but people trained to lie, is a sad state of affairs.

  63. "and assaults on officers drops by as much as 60%" by Dr+Max · · Score: 1

    To be fair when ever some one makes a complaint against the police, the police ussally follow it with a resisting arrest or assulting a police officer charge. It confuses the system enough that the police officer will always get let off.

    --
    Rocket Surgeon.
  64. Re:As a victim of police lies and a destroyed life by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Don't remind me. We were together for 13 years and I still don't know how she could have turned on me like that. I guess we were going through a rough time and she just wanted an excuse. It really hurt then and it still hurts now, particularly because I still have to pay her lots of money. Without a job. My savings are nearly gone. I'm not unhappy, just very angry. I was brought up to believe the world was just and people cared about being good. They don't.

  65. Re:assaults on officers do drop, not why you think by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That judge should have banged that officer up on contempt.

  66. Re:everything boils down to your penis replacement by publiclurker · · Score: 1

    You tell me, what thread had the "I need to compensate" thread in it for you to mispost from?

  67. If you don't understand the right to remain silent by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If you don't understand the right to remain silent, and how it is related to the right to not self-incriminate, and the right to an attorney before and during questioning, then you don't understand the history of abuses under English law, and probably should not be participating in this discussion.

    The idea is to make it DIFFICULT to convict, in part because the English system gave the government, and specifically royalty, far too much power to simply arrest and convict, that is "railroad", those they disliked or saw as enemies, political or personal.

    Look to your history for the abuses. And please don't come back defending Bills of Attainder either.

  68. Neuromancer: you are sent to the justice booths by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
  69. Assaults on officers drops 60% by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ... could it be that the 60% of reports for 'being assaulted' are BS?

    No.. that would never happen.

  70. Re:If you don't understand the right to remain sil by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

    I understand the things you described fine, and I'm also aware of some of the history that brought us to the current position. I just question whether the assumptions that led to that position a very long time ago are still relevant today, and therefore whether protecting those "rights" is still in the interests of justice.

    Also, conflating completely different things (right to remain silent vs. right to informed legal counsel, for example) is a straw man, and a cheap shot that someone you disagree with "probably should not be participating in this discussion" is not an argument.

    --
    If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
  71. Re:If you don't understand the right to remain sil by noh8rz10 · · Score: 1

    right to remain silent is a subset of right to not be forced to self incriminate which is amendment 5. right to a lawyer is a subset of due process which is also in the bill of rights. GP is right, the whole reason the bill of rights was made in the first place because of the english "bill of non-rights"

  72. Re:If you don't understand the right to remain sil by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

    And how many centuries ago was that?

    There are a lot of things that weren't protected by other means in those days that would probably bring down governments if you tried to overturn them today, as for example women and anyone who isn't white can affirm.

    So once more, I repeat the same fundamental question: How is protecting these "rights" in the interests of justice today?

    --
    If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
  73. Re:If you don't understand the right to remain sil by noh8rz10 · · Score: 1

    omg you're totally correct. the era of bad govt is over. now that govt is our friend and is looking out for us we don't need to worry about pesky "rights." you first, my friend.

  74. Re:If you don't understand the right to remain sil by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

    Please stop putting words under my fingertips. I never said anything about governments never being bad, or about not protecting important rights. I just asked how protecting the specific "rights" we're talking about is in the interests of justice in modern society. And I notice that you still haven't even attempted to answer that question, and nor has anyone else in this thread.

    --
    If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
  75. some of us want lots of assaults on police. by wilfredsatan · · Score: 1

    As a member of junkies against crime I love it when the cops get bashed for inflicting their stupid drug laws on people or picking on the homeless which is their main job ithis society if enought of them get hurt maybe the government will get the message that their denial of the right to political office to addicts has stopped ever being raised .that is we addicts have human rights in theory but in practise we are slaves to be exploited to death.

  76. I like the idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Ignoring the typical "police-state" comments, I personally think this is a very good idea.

    1. People can not make unfounded claims against the police.
    2. Police can not make unfounded claims against people.
    3. Police activity in general can be monitored (no more hollywood "bad cops" running around, at least not the uniformed types).

    I don't see this as an invasion of privacy, if everyone KNOWS that the police are walking camera's, then everyone would KNOW when a camera was being "pointed" at them!

  77. Re:If you don't understand the right to remain sil by noh8rz10 · · Score: 1

    it's the job of police and prosecutors to get convictions, and they use every tool at their disposal to do so. the purpose of the miranda rights is to draw a bright line to say, you can't bully and manipulate. the defendant should be able to plan his own defense (defence as you say) and so should be able to stay silent until consulting with an attorney.

    if you've ever been hauled away in handcuffs late at night (DUI say or something similar) you know how scary and intimidating it is. Without those rights being enumerated to you, you'd probably say and admit to anything

    that's why the adversarial justice system works so well!

  78. Re:If you don't understand the right to remain sil by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

    it's the job of police and prosecutors to get convictions, and they use every tool at their disposal to do so.

    Once again that's a rather US-centric approach. To give a contrasting example again from here in the UK, there are plenty of times that the CPS (our public prosecution service) decide not to go ahead with a prosecution because they decide that it's not in the public interest.

    the defendant should be able to plan his own defense (defence as you say) and so should be able to stay silent until consulting with an attorney.

    Right, so as long as the questioning is taking place under caution and legal counsel is present, what's the problem?

    --
    If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
  79. Re:If you don't understand the right to remain sil by noh8rz10 · · Score: 1

    Once again that's a rather US-centric approach. To give a contrasting example again from here in the UK, there are plenty of times that the CPS (our public prosecution service) decide not to go ahead with a prosecution because they decide that it's not in the public interest.

    In the US it's the prosecutor's job to prosecute and the judge's job to make decisions on mitgating circumstances. it's a lot cleaner this way.

    Right, so as long as the questioning is taking place under caution and legal counsel is present, what's the problem?

    duh, this is the purpose of miranda rights, to make sure that this happens! without the rights do you think police would wait for a defense lawyer to arrive?

  80. Re:If you don't understand the right to remain sil by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

    duh, this is the purpose of miranda rights, to make sure that this happens! without the rights do you think police would wait for a defense lawyer to arrive?

    Yes, I think that's exactly what happens here in the UK, which is where we're talking about in this thread if you recall.

    --
    If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
  81. Re:If you don't understand the right to remain sil by noh8rz10 · · Score: 1

    the difference is that you think the gov't is nice and will do these things regardless, where I think the govt is nasty and will take all they can, except for what is protected by rights. who is correct? spoiler alert: me.

  82. Re:If you don't understand the right to remain sil by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

    Stop moving the goalposts. We were talking specifically about the UK's closest equivalent to US Miranda rights. The question was why the right to remain silent, even when being formally questioned with legal representation present, should be protected, and how allowing someone under those conditions to change their story in court later and suddenly remember things convenient to their defence is actually in the interests of justice.

    You still haven't given anything resembling an actual argument in support of that position. All you're posting is fear-mongering about some hypothetical bogeymen, and a few allegations that are disproved every day by the way our system actually works, for real, in practice, here in the UK. I think you don't have any logical or evidence-based argument to make, and you're just defending a legal right that the US singles out for protection because of dogma.

    If you have anything with any real substance, feel free to post it and maybe I'll reply again, but otherwise this thread doesn't seem to be going anywhere.

    --
    If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
  83. Re:If you don't understand the right to remain sil by noh8rz10 · · Score: 1

    your words make no sense. literally, it's like you're speaking a language other than english. you have fundamentally not grasped the difference between 'changing your story' and staying silent. they're not the same! if you stay silent in the interview room, that doesn't mean you're 'changing your story' later in court.

    maybe there's a fundamental misunderstanding here? maybe you think "staying silent" means answering no to every question. in fact it means, I'm not going to provide a response to that question.
    ,br>so, you agree with me now. hopefully this clears it up.