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Hacker Exposes Evidence of Widespread Grade Tampering In India

Okian Warrior writes "Hackaday has a fascinating story about Indian college student Debarghya Das: 'The ISC national examination, taken by 65,000 12th graders in India, is vitally important for each student's future: a few points determines which university will accept you and which will reject you. One of [Debraghya]'s friends asked if it was possible to see ISC grades before they were posted. [Debraghya] was able to download the exam records of nearly every student that took the test. Looking at the data, he also found evidence these grades were changed on a massive scale."

304 comments

  1. Well... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    Sometimes you have to do the needful to get into the school you want.

    1. Re:Well... by Internal+Modem · · Score: 1

      It's being done by the tester, not the students, possibly to keep some people (in specific regions) out of the school they want.

    2. Re:Well... by Registered+Coward+v2 · · Score: 2

      It's being done by the tester, not the students, possibly to keep some people (in specific regions) out of the school they want.

      It would be interesting to see if the anomalies correspond to cutoff scores for various educational tiers; i.e. if Tier 1 schools require a minimum of say 70 do you see a spike at and after that with a corresponding empty value and or dip just below that. If the anomalies correspond to the cutoff scores for admissions then that would seem to indicate scores were adjusted to help students get in. If you see a spike just before the cutoff and a blank then it may be students were down graded as well.

      --
      I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
    3. Re:Well... by HornWumpus · · Score: 0

      Now just graph the scores of the Brahmen. If there is widespread systemic cheating in India it is a safe bet it's being done for the benefit of the Brahmen kids.

      They don't just turn into air thieves when they get to the USA. Their parents taught them to be air thieves. They're entitled.

      --
      John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
    4. Re:Well... by richlv · · Score: 3, Informative

      i believe that was a joke, aimed at the 'indian english'. just sayin' :)

      --
      Rich
    5. Re:Well... by Internal+Modem · · Score: 1

      I was whooshed...

    6. Re:Well... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I didn't have to ever reveal my caste to this particular test authority. Most people who answer it are already urban middle class people.

    7. Re:Well... by Crudely_Indecent · · Score: 1

      It's my understanding that Indian names reflect (or are at least influenced by) the caste and religion of the family. You may not have needed to reveal your caste, you name may have betrayed that information.

      --


      "Lame" - Galaxar
    8. Re:Well... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I'm sure it'll make sense after thinking about it today night.

    9. Re:Well... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "to do the needful" that's classic. I only thought 'my' Indian guys said stuff like that.

    10. Re:Well... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I should ask this kid to analyze global temperatures and explain why my data set has no record of any place on earth ever being 80F. Suspicious, no?

      My hunch is that the data was record in Celcius with 1C precision.
      26C = 79F
      27C = 81F
      28C = 82F

      It could also be a global conspiracy to manipulate weather temperatures around the globe. I'm unsure how to decide which is more likely.

    11. Re:Well... by NotBornYesterday · · Score: 1

      If you do well, or someone helps you do well, you end up going to a prestigious school, and then onward to great things.

      If you don't do well, and no one bumps your grades, you end in a downward educational and intellectual spiral, and end up coding websites for the CISCE.

      --
      I prefer rogues to imbeciles because they sometimes take a rest.
    12. Re:Well... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      a) Temperature recordings for any scientific/statistical purpose are definitely kept in 10th or 100th of a degree. Your can throw your "data set" away

      b) Your hunch does not explain continuity of grades above 93. EIther all grades should skip over even numbers, or none.

  2. in jail by the end of the day by MickyTheIdiot · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This would be true in the US and the UK, and India doesn't even match up to those "high" standards. He'll be in jail because someone with power will be embarrassed by this.

    1. Re:in jail by the end of the day by 3.5+stripes · · Score: 3, Informative

      Good thing he's living in the US then.

      --


      He tried to kill me with a forklift!
    2. Re:in jail by the end of the day by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      my thoughts exactly i hope someone puts him in a job to secure these systems and not nail him to the wall.

    3. Re:in jail by the end of the day by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

      Just wait until the Central Indian Agency will snatch him and bag him.

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    4. Re:in jail by the end of the day by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      not embarrassed.

      afraid.

    5. Re:in jail by the end of the day by interkin3tic · · Score: 1

      Can't access the page right now. Here's hoping he tried to contact some proper official, and the official demanded a bribe in order to investigate, so he published it on his blog instead.

      Not that that will save him from getting dragged over the legal coals, just that would be extra embarrassing.

    6. Re:in jail by the end of the day by PRMan · · Score: 1

      Yeah, because nobody in the US would go to prison just for typing publicly-accessible Urls...

      --
      Peter predicted that you would "deliberately forget" creation 2000 years ago...
    7. Re:in jail by the end of the day by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Probably easily meets the definition of unauthorized access under the CFAA. He's actually guilty of a felony under US law.
      Worse, he's whistleblowing, and if there's anything the current DOJ likes to punish worse than hacking, it's whistleblowing.

    8. Re:in jail by the end of the day by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      With such high standards, I'm surprised he missed the fact that the "suspicious jagginess" is just aliasing The scores were obviously converted at some stage to a 0-57 integer scale. Later, the scores were converted to a 0-100 integer scale. When you do that, some numbers won't be represented in the final result.

    9. Re:in jail by the end of the day by reve_etrange · · Score: 2

      Screen Scraping Is Not A Crime!

      --
      .: Semper Absurda :.
    10. Re:in jail by the end of the day by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why were the scores 92-100 not aliased? Aliasing some but not others = tampering. Also the spikes in the distribution that match up across subjects are anything but normal.

  3. Protocol breach by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Why did this guy name names of his friends?? WTF is he thinking?! "Grades changed on a massive scale, maybe you can't hurt me but here are some names of my friends you can screw over."

  4. not even hacking just URL typing with fixed ID num by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1, Informative

    not even hacking just URL typing with fixed ID numbers

  5. Caste system by dadelbunts · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Any chance this has to do with the horrible caste system there? Id like to see whos grades were changed. I wouldnt be surprised if they failed people of lower social standing to not let them move up.

    1. Re:Caste system by MetalliQaZ · · Score: 3, Interesting

      There is nothing in the article that indicates caste has anything to do with it. Most of the discussion suggested that the cause may have been to "bump" almost-passing grades to passing grades (and presumably other achievement tiers as well).

      --
      "Here Lies Philip J. Fry, named for his uncle, to carry on his spirit"
    2. Re:Caste system by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Any chance you haven't updated your info recently?

      The maltreatment of Dalits in India has been described by some authors as "India's hidden apartheid".[132][133] Critics of the accusations point to substantial improvements in the position of Dalits in post-independence India, consequent to the strict implementation of the rights and privileges enshrined in the Constitution of India, as implemented by the Protection of Civil rights Act, 1955.[134] They also note that India has had a Dalit president, K.R. Narayanan, and argue that the practise had disappeared in urban public life.[135] Several people from Dalit backgrounds have been elected members of Parliament and held senior political posts like chief ministers in several states.

      Sounds like progress to me. And don't fool yourself that your society doesn't have some form of social hierarchy.

    3. Re:Caste system by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The Russian exams have unattainable grades, and that's normal.
      E.g. - one mistake in physics drops you from 100 to 98, two - 96, three - 94...

      That happens because you have 50 attainable points that are then turned into out-of-100 grades. The formula that converts the correct answers into grades is a messed up gaussian, that tries to keep a certain percentage of kids bellow passing, and tries to make make it harder to achieve a 100. (And the formula varies year-to-year, and is calculated AFTER all the exams have been graded). [not to mention the fact that this years exams have all but failed because of a massive leakage of test materials before the exams took place...]

      So what surprises me here is not that there are unachievable grades, but that the smoothed average is NOT a symmetric bell curve.

    4. Re:Caste system by tlhIngan · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Any chance this has to do with the horrible caste system there? Id like to see whos grades were changed. I wouldnt be surprised if they failed people of lower social standing to not let them move up.

      Technically, in a caste system, you're not allowed to move up except in very narrow circumstances. You're not actually allowed to move at all - up or down. You can be the most brilliant person on the planet, but if you were born to an untouchable in India, well, no one would listen to you.

      More likely though, it would be done by people from higher castes because they have a certain image to maintain.

      Remember, in Asia, this all derived from the old school British system where exams basically set you on your path through life - basically the final exams at the end of high school was The Final Exam(tm). Score well, and you'd go to university. Score not-so-well, you got to a second-rate college. Score less and you're a lowly tradesperson. Score even worse and you're an unskilled labourer.

      So in general, it's an extremely high-stress period where teens would basically be locked in their rooms spending all the time studying because it really is it - no chance to take it over (well, I suppose there are certain humanitarian reasons they allow), and it basically determines your future.

      Likewise, for anything with this much pressure on it, people succumb to the human condition - suicide is common, both before and after the exame. Cheating is as well - and many elaborate cheating machines have been conjured up over the years - this isn't your own hide-a-cheat-sheet scale - this is full on tiny 2-way radios and other mechanisms. And of course, hacking of grades to improve one's score.

      Interestingly, I think in China one district is forcing all test-takers through a very sensitive metal detector and forcing them to strip - just one step below forcing test-takers to be stark naked during testing. The metal detector is extremely sensitive and basically won't allow anything metal in.

      That's how serious the test is, and how serious everyone takes it.

      For all its flaws, the modern American system is generally better and more "available" (and even the modern British education system isn't as strict). I'm not entirely sure that letting one test determine your future is entirely wise, and it's one reason why a lot of students travel abroad to study. Some do it because they scored well and got prestigious international study scholarships from their country, but others do it because they couldn't get in, and studying abroad is an option for those that do not pass.

    5. Re:Caste system by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 1

      I used to work for an Indian guy whose wife was a gorgeous, full-lipped woman from the aristocracy, and who "had the tastes of a man", as evidenced by several receptionists who rejected her advances.

      I often imagined if I were a sweet, young "untouchable" maid working for her back in India. "I'm no old-school prude," she'd say to me after I'd finished changing her sheets. "I'll touch you. Just lay down right here," as she patted the comforter next to her.

      "I don't...this is wrong."

      "It's OK. You like this job, it's much better than what you were doing in the slums, right?"

      "I ...yes. It's very nice here, ma'am." I said, as I lay back then pushed myself further up the bed with my feet. I closed my eyes, but felt my tight clothes loosening as her hads did things which made soft sounds. My tummy filled with dreadful butterflies...

      --
      (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
    6. Re:Caste system by SecurityTheatre · · Score: 1

      It's normal for a test to have a distorted curve, or a bimodal curve, due to any number of factors. True Bell curves only happen in statistically random situations, which testing certainly is not.

      However, you should note that scores from 93-100 were almost all possible (curves were smooth) and scores below 30 were also smooth curves. Only the ones in the middle were segmented.

      I don't attribute this to malice, but rather some quirk of how they score. Perhaps the score *is* actually just doubled from 50, but then those above 92, or those who might be near failing are all analyzed with more detail, or are graded separately.

    7. Re:Caste system by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Dude, if anything the lower castes would have been bumped up. India has one of the most agressive affarmitive action policies in the world: see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reservation_in_India . I heard of this because my gf is Indian and is always bitching about how unfair the afirmative action i Apparently a large percentage of top jobs (eg. doctors, lawyers) are simply reserved for the lower castes open (she is a Bainya, a subcaste of the traders, which is only the third ranked caste out of four, but only the lowest caste of untouchables benefit from it).

    8. Re:Caste system by minstrelmike · · Score: 1

      I agree. If there are missing points, then it is being done by an algorithm, not by hand at each school.
      And if the programming was so bad it was easy to get all that stuff, the grade-score changes were probably done by another poorly written program.

    9. Re:Caste system by gl4ss · · Score: 1

      then you can't have a grade like 98.
      which was in the records.

      the data suggests that there was no caste system involved. it was systematic. there were numbers which were attainable BUT NOT A SINGLE ONE out of the thousands and thousands of sampled got those numbers.

      it's as if they had a rule to do so. the rule is not in any books and screws over people who got just the grade as people under them are upgraded to the same points as they had.

      --
      world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
    10. Re:Caste system by gl4ss · · Score: 1

      sorry, meant 97 or 99.

      the high end wasn't doctored as systematically.

      --
      world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
    11. Re:Caste system by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This can't be true, everyone knows only the tea party discriminates fools.

    12. Re:Caste system by Chuckstar · · Score: 2

      I don't think it's fair to blame the British for all of that. China has had a stringent civil service exam tradition, for instance, for 1,300 years.

    13. Re:Caste system by Jockle · · Score: 1

      I'm not entirely sure that letting one test determine your future is entirely wise

      Especially when most of these tests are just garbage that can be passed by memorizing the material; understanding is not required.

    14. Re:Caste system by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      China has had a stringent civil service exam tradition, for instance, for 1,300 years.

      Was it always the case that one had a single opportunity to take the test?

    15. Re:Caste system by turbidostato · · Score: 1

      "there were numbers which were attainable BUT NOT A SINGLE ONE out of the thousands and thousands of sampled got those numbers."

      But doesn't precisely *that* preclude fraud? Fraud is about gaining an advantage over others. If exactly 0 out of, how many? 150.000? didn't get graded, say, 33, this means there's no relative advantage since all with "true" 33 were taken out of it no matter what. That very finding points out to something algorithmic, by its very nature, absolutly the opposite to fraud.

    16. Re:Caste system by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't know about England, but in my country you can always take the test again next year (but you have to stay enrolled in school).
      And if you only failed on a couple of subjects you can do a re-exam on those subject a couple of months after the actual exam.

    17. Re:Caste system by Khashishi · · Score: 1

      You mention both the caste system and the test system, but I thought the whole point of the standardized test system was to get away from the caste system to something more meritocratic. Perhaps the British did a little bit of good to India in this regard. I know it's possible for a dalit to become a professor, provided ze scores well on tests. So at least in academia, the test system is having some positive effect.

    18. Re:Caste system by stymy · · Score: 1

      I'm not from the US, but I was under the impression that there you still have 1 test (or perhaps group of tests) that determine what kind of post-secondary education you can get.

    19. Re:Caste system by mjwx · · Score: 1

      Remember, in Asia, this all derived from the old school British system where exams basically set you on your path through life - basically the final exams at the end of high school was The Final Exam(tm). Score well, and you'd go to university. Score not-so-well, you got to a second-rate college. Score less and you're a lowly tradesperson. Score even worse and you're an unskilled labourer.

      I'd like to point out that this is the _OLD_ school British system. This hasn't been the case in almost 50 years. The Modern US system developed hand in hand with the modern British system (as well as its colonies at the time). In a way this system still exists because its a good idea (well, to go to university you need to be able to cope with study at a university level and universities have limited placements), the only thing the US does differently are sports scholarships which to me seem completely retarded as it takes away university places from people who could make use of those resources. Sporting students should go to a sporting institution, not an education institution.

      Now the problem in India is most likely to be that someone is being paid to tamper with grades (yep, this is a big problem in most Asian nations) to ensure that they can get a better job than the person next to them. Paying for your grades to be improved is considered a lot more legit than paying for a qualification outright.

      Interestingly, I think in China one district is forcing all test-takers through a very sensitive metal detector and forcing them to strip - just one step below forcing test-takers to be stark naked during testing. The metal detector is extremely sensitive and basically won't allow anything metal in.

      Which is kind of pointless as rich parents can simply pay for grades to be improved. This is more of a show.

      Graft is an economy all of its own in China.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
  6. Remember how low the US is ranked by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Other countries might not actually be doing better in education. They may just be moving the bar.

    1. Re:Remember how low the US is ranked by jellomizer · · Score: 1

      The US has never been high on education.
      At least from K-12, College Education in the US is rated quite high though.

      If you have ever worked with a lot of these students from non-US background. You find that they are quite booked learned, however tend not to be very good in the practical matters of actual work.

      For example in Computer Science, it is good to know how Big O works and how memory allocation, and following an object oriented structure works. However you need practice to know when and how to use the skills learned.
      Ok I have a double nested loop, I know that my be O(n^2). But only experience may allow you make a different method that does the same thing in speed of O(n).

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    2. Re:Remember how low the US is ranked by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I have worked with foreign students studying in a US college. They are not book smart either. I may have had the misfortune of dealing with the wrong batch, but their competence existed only in reading research papers and re-implementing what someone else had devised (with a little side of testing to see which options worked better, but I had to do much of that). My low opinion of them dropped even moreso when one of them responded to a failure of the system with a non-sarcastic suggestion of just blatantly cheating.

      Despite all the 'US sucks at learning' memes going around, many of the other nations value a successful cheat as much as an honest win. So I won't trust any educational performance numbers from a whole lot of this planet.

    3. Re:Remember how low the US is ranked by reve_etrange · · Score: 1

      That US education is in decline (entirely due to needlessly low funding) seems clearly true to me, from my vantage point at a state school in California. Nevertheless, US higher education is undoubtedly the best in the world. As my (Indian) professor once pointed out, even 2nd and 3rd tier US institutions have at least one professor among the best in their field.

      Our primary and secondary education is probably more heavily criticized, but reports of its demise are greatly exaggerated.

      --
      .: Semper Absurda :.
    4. Re:Remember how low the US is ranked by Jockle · · Score: 1

      Do we really want to use the same tests that can be passed by merely memorizing the material to determine if students are doing better than in the past?

    5. Re:Remember how low the US is ranked by reve_etrange · · Score: 1

      This (PDF) doesn't seem like a memorization based exam to me...

      Nor does this one...

      Standardized, multiple choice exams have problems. They usually don't accurately reflect ability, discriminate against ELLs as well as students with anxiety or dyslexia and are generally vulnerable to gaming / test strategies. But most I've seen aren't what I'd call tests of memorization, except maybe the History component of the STAR exams.

      --
      .: Semper Absurda :.
    6. Re:Remember how low the US is ranked by Jockle · · Score: 1

      Blindly following procedures and tips is still rote memorization.

      This [ed.gov] (PDF) doesn't seem like a memorization based exam to me...

      Nor does this one [ed.gov]...

      Are you blind? Those tests are garbage, and I could tell right off the bat.

    7. Re:Remember how low the US is ranked by Jockle · · Score: 1

      And I do realize those are 4th grade tests, but what part of doing well on these tests proves that a student understands the materials? They're garbage, just like I said.

    8. Re:Remember how low the US is ranked by reve_etrange · · Score: 1

      The Mathematics questions test of basic arithmetic. It appears designed to be relatively easy for good students. Some of the terminology might be unfamiliar to you if you went to US primary school before the mid-late 90's (or just can't remember fourth grade very well). There aren't a lot of ways to write multiple choice questions for fourth grade arithmetic...some of the word problems could be more interesting or "real world" based, I guess.

      The Science questions likewise test elementary school science. This largely entails basic knowledge about the world, such as why the moon shines, why getting too much sun can be a bad thing or the germ theory of disease. As such it inherently consists of learning terminology which supports a basic conceptual framework for science at a level where it does overlap significantly with (adult) "common sense." Any test of this type of framework will be a test of the essential terminology of the framework. This continues to be true in science long after the elementary school level. University physics, chemistry and biology all have large bodies of linked concepts which are taught and expressed through a large, specialized terminology. Personally, I would like to see more experimentally focused questions, of which there are essentially none, but I acknowledge that this is because inadequate funding has destroyed the ability of most American schools to conduct experiments in class. These tests are also intended for international distribution, which further constrains what is reasonable. It's an non-ideal test for a non-ideal system, but it's not at all egregious, especially considering that these "easy for a good student" type exams are really 1 or 2 grades lower than labelled in real difficulty

      Tests like these exist because there is a demand for "accountability" through quantitative and behavioral performance metrics. Their scale and desired uniformity require simple multiple choice exams, which in turn must test many small, concrete problems in using some common vocabulary. If you really want to know what somebody "understands" internally, there is no test or technology that can achieve that. Detailed evaluations of individual students written by their teachers are the only thing that could even come close. If it were up to me, that's what I would choose (and adequately fund). The college I went to had such Narrative Evaluations instead of grades (later relaxed into a hybrid system with grades for large quantitative classes); in my opinion it's a far superior system. The students even evaluate professors and TAs in turn, which are reviewed by the school and the teachers, and have a real impact.

      --
      .: Semper Absurda :.
    9. Re:Remember how low the US is ranked by Jockle · · Score: 1

      Maybe there's not much you can do with such simple subject matter, but I still feel the tests are still sorely lacking.

      It appears designed to be relatively easy for good students.

      It is often the case that "good students" are merely people who follow instructions, not necessarily people who are truly intelligent. I'll agree that the tests would be easy for people who actually understand the material, but that's not the problem; the problem is that many people can pass such tests by only memorizing facts. Of course, I don't think that memorization is always a bad thing (as some things need to be memorized), but the way we're having students in the public school system memorize material, rather than have them understand it, is seriously disappointing.

      It seems to get worse and worse as the subject matter gets more complicated.

      It's an non-ideal test for a non-ideal system

      Of course.

      Tests like these exist because there is a demand for "accountability" through quantitative and behavioral performance metrics. Their scale and desired uniformity require simple multiple choice exams, which in turn must test many small, concrete problems in using some common vocabulary.

      NCLB only made this problem even worse. As I see it, our public school system has had these same problems (one-size-fits-all education, rote memorization, ridiculous testing, etc.) for a very long time.

      Well, I agree with you that the problem is certainly not going to get better if we keep cutting funding like we are.

    10. Re:Remember how low the US is ranked by reve_etrange · · Score: 1

      The less-funding-for-lower-scores anti-pattern implemented by NCLB is especially ridiculous.

      But like I said before, I think the solution is to accept that only qualitative metrics will be effective predictors of performance. The "quantitative" tests are really just as subjective in what they value.

      I've always positively hated the tests in which a question will be so dumbed-down that none of the choices is strictly true, for example.

      --
      .: Semper Absurda :.
  7. Reddit threw the findings into doubt by The+MAZZTer · · Score: 1

    Looks like his observations might have been the result of standardizing the test scores... IE if you have a test that only scores 50 max and you scale it to 100 obviously you aren't going to have many odd numbers in the results.

    1. Re:Reddit threw the findings into doubt by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Looks like his observations might have been the result of standardizing the test scores... IE if you have a test that only scores 50 max and you scale it to 100 obviously you aren't going to have many odd numbers in the results.

      He points out that in some of the tests all scores of 94-100 inclusive were obtained, so it's not a case of leaving out odds or a regularly-spaced set of numbers based on a simple scaling up/down.

    2. Re:Reddit threw the findings into doubt by ZombieBraintrust · · Score: 1

      It also doesn't explain why even numbers would be missing. Or why the bell curve in his final graph would be skewed.

    3. Re:Reddit threw the findings into doubt by telchine · · Score: 0

      Oh well, if Reddit users say it then it must be true!

    4. Re:Reddit threw the findings into doubt by SecurityTheatre · · Score: 1

      I agree. The distributions are most likely the result of some doubling of actual scores, combined with a small amount of manipulation.

      It's clear that there was some rounding-up done near the pass/fail line. It's also clear that there is some extra or different standard of rounding/normalization for those scoring above 90 (or 93).

      The fact that they aren't transparent about it is lame, but very Indian.

    5. Re:Reddit threw the findings into doubt by intermodal · · Score: 2

      Not all his observations. The notable lack of scores leading up to the pass point and the sudden spike at that exact point are particularly notable.

      --
      In SOVIET RUSSIA... erm...NSA AMERICA, the Internet logs onto YOU!
    6. Re:Reddit threw the findings into doubt by Internal+Modem · · Score: 2

      I thought so too, but the problem is when you overlay the various tests for different subjects, they all show the same missing points. Standardizing different tests (in different subjects) would not produce identical gaps when overlaid unless all 150,000 students performed exactly the same for each subject – which is just not believable.

    7. Re:Reddit threw the findings into doubt by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Can you really blame teachers for helping their borderline students pass? It happens all the time.

    8. Re:Reddit threw the findings into doubt by Eevee · · Score: 1

      if you have a test that only scores 50 max and you scale it to 100 obviously you aren't going to have many odd numbers in the results.

      The thing is, you'll have no odd numbers when you double the values. It's those odd numbers that only occur up in the 90s that stand out--if they are scaling like your theory, then the scorers are screwing with the upper values. If they aren't, they're screwing with the lower values to make those jagged peaks. (And there's still the issue of the missing "just below passing" scores.)

    9. Re:Reddit threw the findings into doubt by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Erm... in your example you wouldn't have ANY odd numbers... he also has a fair explanation of just this criticism of his report. RTFA.

    10. Re:Reddit threw the findings into doubt by intermodal · · Score: 1

      On a test like this? Yes, I can blame them. The thing is, we can't assume it's the teachers themselves doing it. There would be a bit less consistency.

      --
      In SOVIET RUSSIA... erm...NSA AMERICA, the Internet logs onto YOU!
    11. Re:Reddit threw the findings into doubt by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh, morons, it is quite clear that the middle range was re-scaled differently than the top and bottom parts. And the scaling factor was not an integer 2, but some number _close_ to 2 and then rounded. Sheesh.

    12. Re:Reddit threw the findings into doubt by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The results clearly haven't been standardised, because the means are vastly different. But the fact that the gaps are the same everywhere is pretty good evidence that the same processing has been applied to all of them, so a reasonable explanation would be that there's some curve which stretches from a narrower mark range up to 100.

    13. Re:Reddit threw the findings into doubt by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not all his observations. The notable lack of scores leading up to the pass point and the sudden spike at that exact point are particularly notable.

      Test scores also get normalized against other years. You need to capture any variations from cohort to cohort and also eliminate any variations in test difficulty from year to year. There is also the goal of identifying the passing x% of the cohort. Even if the students in a particular cohort are less educated, you still have the same number of vacancies at universities to fill. There is also the goal of maintaining the same numerical passing score from year to year for consistency, else you are broadcasting the variations in cohorts (that still could just be variations in test difficulty)

      These goals can conflict with each other. Sometimes the best compromise is to push the lowest scores just into the passing zone. This gives you your necessary overall pass percentage at a predetermined score without further skewing the results of the more capable students.

      Think about what they are trying to achieve: identify the top 0.001%, top 0.05%, top 1%, top %20, and top %80. You don't need the precision at the bottom of the scale that you do at the top of the scale, so squishing together the last several percent of kids right near passing is no big deal.

      The kid who wrote the article needs to check his ego and take a few non-programming classes, like stats and signals processing, before he starts giving other Indian programmers a bad reputation.

    14. Re:Reddit threw the findings into doubt by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      you must work for the Indian school testing group.

    15. Re:Reddit threw the findings into doubt by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      1. It cannot be a bell curve, since it is on a bounded support, and the mean is close to the boundary
      2. The spikes clearly show an expand->quantize step (basically multiplication and rounding) in the middle region. Anyone who has seen transformed quantized data which had been re-quantized at the final step will recognize it. The mixture of missing even/odd number is not a mystery if the scaling is not an integer factor of 2 but something very close to 2.
      3. Apart from the bounded support the skew could be also explained by the scaling, since it only affects one side of the curve.

      So my assumption is that the original input was a set of integer scores, that were mapped by a piecewise linear function with close to 2 but not integer factor in the mid-range, and a different scaling for the edges. I don't know why they did this, but the data supports this assumption very well.

    16. Re:Reddit threw the findings into doubt by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not all his observations. The notable lack of scores leading up to the pass point and the sudden spike at that exact point are particularly notable.

      You're allowed to retake the test if you fail. Anyone close to the line would try again. Those way at the bottom won't.

    17. Re:Reddit threw the findings into doubt by intermodal · · Score: 1

      That doesn't account for literally zero of many thousands falling on those numbers.

      --
      In SOVIET RUSSIA... erm...NSA AMERICA, the Internet logs onto YOU!
    18. Re:Reddit threw the findings into doubt by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think that is very easy to explain.
      If you fall just below the pass/fail line you can take a re-exam (I assume this is the same in india).
      If you are above it, you won't bother.
      If you are below the line, you are more likely to ask why you were given that grade, and maybe get a higher grade because they miss-graded, or whatever.
      And lastly, teachers don't want their students to fail generally. Assuming it's not multiple choice the they can do all kinds of things to give you just enough points to make it.

      Did you not go to school?
      I've seen all of these things happen.

  8. That was a great article.. by 3.5+stripes · · Score: 4, Insightful

    More for the discussion of statistics than for the really sad excuse for security on those pages..

    --


    He tried to kill me with a forklift!
    1. Re:That was a great article.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I though it was great because it shows a young kid with curiousity, technical and mathematical aptitude and a huge interest in investigating and understanding things.

      It's a damn shame that, like someone else has pointed out, this will probably just land him in trouble with the authorities.

    2. Re:That was a great article.. by Cow+Jones · · Score: 1

      You think so?

      FTA: Statistics says that if you take enough samples of data, regardless of the distributon, it will average out into a Normal distribution.

      News to me.

      --

      Ah, arrogance and stupidity, all in the same package. How efficient of you. -- Londo Mollari
    3. Re:That was a great article.. by gl4ss · · Score: 1

      that they built the website in a stupid fashion but which can handle a lot of traffic isn't that much of a shock(except it's probably illegal) as it is that there's systematic adjustment of grades..

      the first needs just one lazy underfunded bad apple. the other tells that the test administrators have a culture of unfair play.

      --
      world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
  9. outsourcing to india by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 4, Insightful

    this is the type of coding that you get in India stuff done on the cheap and likely to coded to spec with no thinking about how bad of a idea this is.

    1. Re:outsourcing to india by 140Mandak262Jamuna · · Score: 1

      He is a twelfth grader. This is one off code without any lasting value. Writing a generalized code for this purpose would be an over design. Next thing you will be complaining people doing mental arithmetic to figure out how much that shoe on sale is going to cost are not modularizing and reusing their mental faculties. Jeez. Give that boy a break.

      --
      sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
    2. Re:outsourcing to india by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Grandparent is talking about the code that he hacked, not the code he wrote.

    3. Re:outsourcing to india by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He's talking about the people that wrote the website distributing the scores.

    4. Re:outsourcing to india by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "done on the cheap and likely to coded to spec with no thinking about how bad of a idea this is."

      So just like 90% of rest of the world then, you bigot.

    5. Re:outsourcing to india by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'd pay a living wage and more if I could get people that "coded to spec". The landscape is littered with failed projects that some dumb cowboy screwed up.

    6. Re:outsourcing to india by SecurityTheatre · · Score: 1

      Haha. I think he's talking about the government sponsored system to distribute grades to hundreds of thousands of Indian citizens being coded with the primary security being... well obfuscation via JavaScript. Win

    7. Re:outsourcing to india by Will.Woodhull · · Score: 1

      This is the type of coding you should expect of someone without coding experience who is doing it himself because he cannot afford to let anyone else see how he has been screwing with the raw data.

      --
      Will
    8. Re:outsourcing to india by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      On the other hand, if you hire an Indian (H-1B, right?), you might just get this guy who hacked the system.

      Or not. But that depends on you doing your hiring process right.

    9. Re:outsourcing to india by reve_etrange · · Score: 1

      He's a student at Cornell University and a Google intern.

      --
      .: Semper Absurda :.
    10. Re:outsourcing to india by reve_etrange · · Score: 1

      ...he goes to Cornell and already works for Google.

      --
      .: Semper Absurda :.
    11. Re:outsourcing to india by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      So they did have their hiring process done right, then.

      Meanwhile, people here will keep bitching about how Indian H1-B "code monkeys" are stealing their Google jobs.

    12. Re:outsourcing to india by reve_etrange · · Score: 1

      Some things never change. Although in this case it's a student visa (assuming he's not a resident already)...

      --
      .: Semper Absurda :.
    13. Re:outsourcing to india by gweihir · · Score: 1

      Indeed. Matches my experience from code-reviews of code outsourced to "quality" code outsourcing providers in India. Best thing I found was a quadratic sort algorithm (!) used to remove duplicated in java (that has hash-maps) form a database query result that could have arbitrary size. Performed well on small test data, failed catastrophically with the real DB. About as clueless as you can get and still having it work for some cases. A true gem. Needless to say, the project was scrapped after 10s of millions invested.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
  10. Re:and how many people just cramed the test by lxs · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Have you seen the curves? They don't even approach a poisson distribution.

  11. or.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Or it is an artifact of the scoring system.

    1. Re:or.... by intermodal · · Score: 1

      A chunk of missing grades before the pass point and a spike at the pass point is not an artifact of the scoring system. The missing numbers, however, could well be.

      --
      In SOVIET RUSSIA... erm...NSA AMERICA, the Internet logs onto YOU!
  12. Just like the SAT by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    A lot of this can just be explained by curving scores to a pre-determined pattern, just like every other standardized test. Plotting SAT scores will get you the same hedgehog curve, since you can't get a score that's not a multiple of 10 IIRC. The IT failure here is still inexcusable.

    1. Re:Just like the SAT by scorp1us · · Score: 1

      The problem he pointed out is that there are parts of every graph where the non-multiple case applies. This refutes the "every score is a multiple" theory, unless multiplication was not the final step. If there is a step after multiplication, how are bonus points awarded?

      --
      Slashdot's rate-of-post filter: Preventing you from posting too many great ideas at once.
  13. Ha, the joy of working with indian engineers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And after that, they will come saying:
    - I am an engineering graduate of a super indian university Sir, I swear that I can code your new SW in 3 minutes for $5! (while shacking their head!)

    Makes you wonder why 10 months after you get some crap that is barely working!

    cyrille

  14. Re:and how many people just cramed the test by Internal+Modem · · Score: 4, Informative

    The test results were manipulated. There are missing scores (from 1-100) on a test taken by 150,000 students. That is not possible. They have been bumped up to passing. The graphs show jagged peaks separated by gaps rather than a curve. Unless his data is incomplete or has been manipulate, there is no reasonable explanation for the jagged charts.

  15. Why the Education Board? by Infiniti2000 · · Score: 1

    If there was tampering, why is it the assumption of the education board doing the tampering? Maybe other students found this obviously easy "hack" but improved upon the method to actually modify the data.

    1. Re:Why the Education Board? by Anonymous+Psychopath · · Score: 1

      If there was tampering, why is it the assumption of the education board doing the tampering? Maybe other students found this obviously easy "hack" but improved upon the method to actually modify the data.

      Two problems with that theory.

      1) His "hack" was basically just looking at the JavaScript to learn the public URLs containing each individual's results.
      2) The number of students improving upon this (discovering and exploiting the database) to the point of manipulating data would be tens of thousands.

      --

      Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.

    2. Re:Why the Education Board? by Infiniti2000 · · Score: 1

      I understand that the hack wasn't really a hack, but that doesn't change the theory that this is an issue with the board rather than 1 or more students. Regarding the number of records changed, it certainly doesn't have to be more than 1 student doing the hacking. It's obvious to change several, or a lot, of records to hide the one you really care about.

    3. Re:Why the Education Board? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There were large numbers of potential scores that no-one managed to get, that is a sign of systematic grade tampering. If the distribution was a bit off with unusually low numbers of people then that could be a result of large-scale hacking, but for no-one to get any of those scores near the grade boundaries means someone wanted to alter all the results near the boundaries. Okay, it isn't impossible some hacker decided to tweak all the results for all the exams, but it seems quite unlikely, one result being changed by a few marks would almost certainly go unnoticed, even a few hundred may not be easily detectable out of over a hundred thousand, but as it is the tampering is clearly visible and far more likely to draw attention to what's been done.

  16. Or just buy degree by anvilmark · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Nothing I hear about education fraud in India surprises me since one of my Indian coworkers explained how people "buy" degrees from Indian universities.
    University employees can be bribed to create the records for an entire curriculum, spanning multiple years of attendance. This record is indistinguishable from a valid one and generates a real diploma. The University will confirm education because "it's in the system".
    I think he said it cost about $3000 USD or so for a Masters degree.

    1. Re:Or just buy degree by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wait till he is disappeared... or mysteriously goes offline... or finds himself jail painted terribly by the media and the politicians..

      in 3... 2... 1....

    2. Re:Or just buy degree by kevinT · · Score: 1

      Does that "University" have an on line program? I have a "friend" that would be very appreciative if ... "they" could get a BS degree documented. ....

    3. Re:Or just buy degree by ah.clem · · Score: 1

      My first thoughts exactly. My "friend" would appreciate a verifiable Doctorate.

      --
      "Life is not magic." Dr. Ron Weiss - "If we don't play God, who will?" Dr. James Watson
    4. Re:Or just buy degree by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not all Indian universities are like this. If you tried to pull anything like this (bribery) where I studied, you'd have been thrown out without hestiation. Three of my classmates are at the top of the field in Computer Vision and Machine Learning.

      There do exist universities and schools where you could bribe your way out but please do not generalise.

  17. Massive "scale" is the appropriate term... by Gavin+Scott · · Score: 1

    I think his results could be explained if the calculation of the final mark in a subject area involve some dodgy math to scale the result such that some intermediate step compresses the possible result to a discrete range of say 50 or so values which are then scaled / normalized to a 0-100 range. This expansion will result in every other final score value being impossible to obtain.

    They may be scoring different parts of the exams with different weights, and then combining and scaling the results together, and I could imagine that process could produce the distribution he's seeing even without malicious intent of some sort.

    This seems much more likely than some conspiracy to adjust grades which managed to produce so specific a set of results. The testing board may be playing with the overall weighting and projection of the raw scores onto a final normalized 0-100 range, but then that's what such organizations do to try to account for variations in the test questions from year to year, and I think in the US the SAT people do very similar things.

    In other words, his data don't immediately indicate any per-student grade manipulation that I can see. The author is also a bit too proud of his accomplishment and indicates that he's clever, but perhaps also a bit young and naive.

    G.

    1. Re:Massive "scale" is the appropriate term... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In other words, his data don't immediately indicate any per-student grade manipulation that I can see. The author is also a bit too proud of his accomplishment and indicates that he's clever, but perhaps also a bit young and naive.

      Well judging by the words he throws around to make his data scraping seem much more complicated, he definitely thinks hes clever.

    2. Re:Massive "scale" is the appropriate term... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think his results could be explained if the calculation of the final mark in a subject area involve some dodgy math to scale the result such that some intermediate step compresses the possible result to a discrete range of say 50 or so values which are then scaled / normalized to a 0-100 range. This expansion will result in every other final score value being impossible to obtain.

      There's a tendency at least at $DAYJOB to map scores to grades as a piecewise linear function, usually of 2-3 pieces. If they map all the low scores in one piece to 0..35, the "normal" scores to 35..90 in another, and the very high scores (usually the top third or so of the points achievable) to 90..100, that would seem to explain the data (with your discretization argument applied to the "normal" scores in the middle part).

      The gap at 30..35 is also not so hard to explain. Standard procedure here is to reconsider the not-quite-passing cases carefully, and try to find arguments why they veer more on the barely-passing or more on the not-passing side. At least in the barely-passing case, the grades must then be adjusted to match.

    3. Re:Massive "scale" is the appropriate term... by PRMan · · Score: 1

      When all the scores for 2 to 3 places immediately below the failing grade are missing, you don't see a problem?

      --
      Peter predicted that you would "deliberately forget" creation 2000 years ago...
    4. Re:Massive "scale" is the appropriate term... by Torinir · · Score: 1

      Actually, given the consistent spiking at specific grades on the ISC and ICSE charts, there may be some significant "grace" marking going on, and not just at the pass mark, I'm talking larger than normal shifts between valid marks (around the 70's and 90's). Both the ISC and ICSE tests are 40 questions on every subject, so there shouldn't be any marks at 96, 98 and 99 too, yet those graphs suggest that some students did get those marks.

    5. Re:Massive "scale" is the appropriate term... by Comrade+Ogilvy · · Score: 1

      Please, mod parent up.

      The malicious manipulation hypothesis lacks explanatory power -- there is no logical reason to believe that corrupt officials would find these kind of quirks more useful towards padding their wallets. The rescaling hypothesis does explain.

      Furthermore, having TA'd at a large and respected state system university for very big lower division physics courses, I can say that hints of bi-modal or tri-modal distributions are not necessarily surprising. Arguably it is a good thing -- distributions that look like overwhelmingly influenced by randomness could imply weakness in the curriculum design and testing practices.

  18. Re:not even hacking just URL typing with fixed ID by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    According to my attorney (a former IT person who went to law school), that qualifies as hacking.

    He was helping me with a child custody issue, but he had a case where a woman was accused of hacking. He said clearly she couldn't do it as she could barely use a webbrowser and she was accused of a fairly sophisticated attack. He was thinking about using me as an expert witnesss, so we got talking about the subject. He said he'd obviously argue it wasn't if he was the defense attorney, but that case law present was changing GET parameters qualifies as hacking.

    That truly scared me.

  19. Re:not even hacking just URL typing with fixed ID by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    A few years back, when i was in high school, they had this exact flaw also, yet they had directory listings enabled... You knew a single url, and you got links to every kids grades. They fixed this and changed the way it gets the url, but i later wrote a script to bruteforce those hexadecimal based urls.
    However, at the end of the year, the kids would use this system to choose which classes they took the next year. My friend and i had fun changing some kids classes around.

    Back on topic, its not even authentication at any point. Its like someone leaving their shades open, and then suing you for invasion of privacy when you happened to notice that they were laundering money in their living room.

  20. E-systems WILL be manipulated if motivation exists by Catbeller · · Score: 0

    E-voting, e-grading, any system that people have motivation to cheat with will be used to cheat. This is why e-voting is a recipe for wholesale theft of the future. Combine wealthy interests which own the e-voting companies with motivation numbering in the trillions of dollars, and voting is and will be a farce. Shut it down.

  21. Re:and how many people just cramed the test by msauve · · Score: 2

    "There are missing scores (from 1-100) "

    Without knowing how many questions are given in each section, and how they're scored, that's not possible to say. The set of possible scores doesn't necessarily include every value from 1-100.

    If there are 30 questions in a section, and it's scored on a straight percentage basis, you're going to see discrete peaks every 3.33%, and nothing in between. Gosh, just like on the graphs.

    That doesn't explain the odd overall distributions, however.

    --
    "National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
  22. Wont jump to conclusions. by 140Mandak262Jamuna · · Score: 1
    The major revelation is there are certain totals nobody got. I mean, no one got 78 marks or 67 marks out of 100 in a subject. By itself it is not evidence of tampering. If all the questions had only even number of marks, then nobody would get odd number of marks in total. From what I recall from my high school final papers, there were a few one mark questions, some five marks and some 10 mark questions. But that was decades ago. Now with the rise in objective questions etc, it is possible the entire paper was so structured it is impossible to get some totals.

    On the other hand, even if there are a sprinkling of one mark questions, the graph would be expected to be uniform. Anyway, good job of a twelfth grader to hack javascript at this level.

    --
    sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
    1. Re:Wont jump to conclusions. by 140Mandak262Jamuna · · Score: 1

      That boy is good. He proved that all marks are attainable. There is massive award of "grace" marks.

      --
      sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
    2. Re:Wont jump to conclusions. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The major revelation is there are certain totals nobody got. I mean, no one got 78 marks or 67 marks out of 100 in a subject. By itself it is not evidence of tampering. If all the questions had only even number of marks, then nobody would get odd number of marks in total. From what I recall from my high school final papers, there were a few one mark questions, some five marks and some 10 mark questions. But that was decades ago. Now with the rise in objective questions etc, it is possible the entire paper was so structured it is impossible to get some totals.

      On the other hand, even if there are a sprinkling of one mark questions, the graph would be expected to be uniform. Anyway, good job of a twelfth grader to hack javascript at this level.

      True, we shouldn't jump to conclusions. Some of it sounds too good to be a coincidence though- "32, 33 and 34 were visibly absent... Coincidentally, 35 happens to be the pass mark."

    3. Re:Wont jump to conclusions. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It depends on how many questions were on the test.

      If there were 100 in each test then all 100 grades would be attainable. If there were 20. Then yes there are grades you can not get and you would see a spiky graph. However there are noticeable drop offs in numbers as specific ranges 85-90 and 30-40. That is not explainable. There are also graphs where everyone is hovering around 95%. Either the test sucks, someone is pumping it up, or they are all just that smart (unlikely given the other graphs).

    4. Re:Wont jump to conclusions. by CurunirAran · · Score: 1

      Stuff hasn't changed. I gave the CBSE exam a year ago, nothing has changed.

    5. Re:Wont jump to conclusions. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      " Anyway, good job of a twelfth grader to hack javascript at this level."

      I know 12 year olds that can hack JS at that level. at 18 he's way behind the class.

  23. Re:and how many people just cramed the test by msauve · · Score: 1

    ...I'll just add that if the scores are integer rounded, the data points will have an uneven x axis distribution, 0,3,7,10, etc. That will make it appear that points are missing visually, too. Just like on the graphs.

    --
    "National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
  24. Well, duh.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Convert a mark out of 60 (OK, not exactly 60, but somewhere around there), to a mark out of 100 and you get a distribution like this. The only oddity is the extended gap just below 35 - but this is also understandable. Most students with a mark of 34 will request a remark, and you will usually be able to find one extra mark. As a result, most markers will just bump 34 to 35 to get rid of that hassle.

  25. Re:and how many people just cramed the test by Internal+Modem · · Score: 3, Informative

    It definitely does not represent standardization to a score of 100. It's not an even distribution of peaks. It is pushed up above the failing mark, and there is no gap from 94-100. Furthermore, all the different tests in different subjects show the same gaps. This is not reasonable at all.

  26. Re:not even hacking just URL typing with fixed ID by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why should that scare you? The law is not some mechanical code, ignoring human factors like intent.
    Just because a website is put together incompetently and you can access data so trivially doesn't mean you have permission to do so.

  27. OK BUT IT IS INDIA !! ALABAMA'S ALABAMA !! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So it is a, WHO CARES !! It is not like Indians do not have a million more important problems !!

  28. Look at the bright side by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You might have a person with an IQ of 140 helping you next time you call customer support.

    1. Re:Look at the bright side by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'd settle for being able to speak English...

  29. Education in India by cfulton · · Score: 5, Informative
    I lived in India for a year. What I can tell you of the eduction system there is that it is not the juggernaut of higher ed that we are told it is in America. I had one person working for me as a developer who had a degree in Computer Science. We were getting ready to set up some servers with our application server software. He was very excited since he had taken several courses in UNIX but had never actually been on one. They had done all the course work with pen and paper:

    What does "ls -l" do? Please describe below.

    That kind of thing. So, I'm not surprised if institutions are manipulating test scores. India is more about the perception of computer savvy developers than the reality of it.

    --
    No sigs in BETA. Beta SUCKS.
    1. Re:Education in India by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Unlike people with MSCE or CCNA's ?

    2. Re:Education in India by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm at a large research-oriented university here in the mid-western United States, and I've rarely been impressed by their science and engineering folks. For many of the folks I've met from India, the importance of the degree seems to be as much about social standing as it does actually doing something with it. Now, that's not to say that there aren't some of those folks who aren't great; there are. In fact, I've worked with a few that are brilliant... but for every one of them there seem to be ten who are run of the mill or sub par.

      One of the grad students working for me in biomedical engineering seemed astonished.. "WOW! This is really hard!"... Yeah..no shit.. you're working on an MS in biomed engineering.. wtf did you think it was going to be, a walk in the park?

    3. Re:Education in India by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So what? I learned to program 6502 assembler without a computer back in the 1980's. I wrote op-codes and operands on paper and traced the flow of execution. I was 12 years old, and home computers cost thousands of (1980's) dollars, more than a child could pay. I had to wait to use the few Apple II's in school, rarely.

      This aspect of Indian education is so bad.

    4. Re:Education in India by PhuckIndian · · Score: 0

      well most Indians cheat their way to get their BS (as in bull s*it) degree. America is being flooded by these sub-par monkey taking your jobs.

    5. Re:Education in India by 140Mandak262Jamuna · · Score: 1

      Come on that is how they teach virtual machines in India. Using really really virtual machines.

      --
      sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
    6. Re:Education in India by reve_etrange · · Score: 2

      Answer: ls --help | grep '\-l\s'

      --
      .: Semper Absurda :.
    7. Re:Education in India by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      I'm amazed that sort of thing would be part of a university curriculum. It's the sort of thing you're expected to learn on your own, or during lab, but not in class. Learning details of OS commands sounds like something from a technical trade school. Is Indian education oriented to tech trade school mode, or are they focusing on broader education so that the student is adaptable?

      Reminds me of some coworkers I used to knew (white pasty skin Americans) who'd say things like "I never learned that in school".

    8. Re:Education in India by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The same story is happening in the USA too. One of many universities, forced an instructor to change all "C" grades to A so that the average Dept. GPA would be around 3.5 to 3.8 range. Based on these grades, they get funding from the state. Most of these CS undergrads and grades are not worth even $5/- an hour. So, cheating has become universal. Assian countries in general, keep students admitted to college so that they would not agitate for well paying jobs. Then, they become the problems to hiring companies or birbe taking government agencies. The only way this can be stopped is by huge population reduction. People killing each other of the same clan are the examples that we see now will expand and finally equilibrium will return. Most H1B visa holders are as bad as some US degree holders. Hey, that is life.

    9. Re:Education in India by readingaccount · · Score: 1

      I now feel absurdly bad for never thinking to do that.

    10. Re:Education in India by mattr · · Score: 1

      Interesting. I learned 6502 watching a friend coding with pencil and paper too. He wrote a polyphonic multi keypress synthesizer, and asteroids (2d and 3d) and robotron. Apple ][. Very luckily I got one myself but 6502 always seemed more elegant on paper.

  30. Re:and how many people just cramed the test by CurunirAran · · Score: 5, Informative

    The Indian system of education doesn't work like that. Here's a post I made on another forum: You can theoretically attain all marks in the 0-100 range because there is no scaling up. Each paper has components that together total upto a 100. For example, there could be 10 1-mark questions, 15 2-mark questions, 4 3-mark questions, 3 4-mark questions and 6 6-mark questions. Each question can be graded to a fraction of it's worth. So you can get 1.5 on a 2-mark question, 0.5 on a 3-mark question, etc. Thus theoretically, all possible combinations of scores are possible. The absence of certain scores is evidence of tampering. SOURCE: I appeared for the CBSE exams last year. The system is similar, though not the same.

  31. His Conclusions Seem Unfounded... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but having read through these results, I'm pretty convinced that he sees numbers that are not showing up in scores and is therefore inferring there is widespread grade tampering. That doesn't seem particularly well backed up by his own published facts.

    It may have been more interesting to consider the distribution of scores instead of the irregularity of scores to determine if there was some kind of tampering. Either way, this feels like a leap that is weak at best.

    1. Re:His Conclusions Seem Unfounded... by pezpunk · · Score: 1

      yup. there does seem to be some evidence of grace scores down near the passing level, and it'd be interesting to theorize about the bimodal distribution he's seeing in places, but the jagged graphs are what he seems to be most concerned about, which are most likely simply a product of how the test was weighted or curved or whatever.

      --
      i could live a little longer in this prison
    2. Re:His Conclusions Seem Unfounded... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, another nice example why empirical cdf's are important.

  32. Re:and how many people just cramed the test by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The author answers your objections. First, the missing values didn't have consistent intervals (it wasn't always every 3 points). Second, the grades from 32 to 34 didn't appear in the data. That gap seems unusual. Third, there weren't gaps from 94% to 100%, so it's known to be possible to attain percentages that aren't divisible by three, for example.

  33. Re:and how many people just cramed the test by tibit · · Score: 1

    There are fragments on the curve with no missing integer values. The marks for the individual questions themselves are docile - there's no reason NO ONE would get a particular score, other than tampering. The dips you see in the curves are ZEROES. As in not a single person getting such mark.

    --
    A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
  34. Certifications by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Same goes for certs from India. While staying there, I got plenty of industry certificates, just by paying "training fee" - in India, if you pay training, the perception is you get the certificate.

  35. Re:not even hacking just URL typing with fixed ID by the+biologist · · Score: 1

    Actually it does mean you have permission to do so. It doesn't mean the owners meant to give you permission, however.

  36. Re:not even hacking just URL typing with fixed ID by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Just out of curiosity, do you favor the RIAA's position on IP, then?

  37. Plus, this just doesn't make sense by KingSkippus · · Score: 2

    So let's say that some numbers are "missing." Why would someone manipulate the exact same numbers to be missing across all of the exams? I mean, I could see bumping a 32, 33, or 34 (non-passing) up to a 35 to have pity on some poor schmuck who came really close to passing, but why would, say, someone change a 93? I mean, not just for one student, but all the way across the board? What possible motivation could someone have to say "That's got to be either a 92 or a 94, we can't have any 93s"?

    I'm inclined to believe what the poster above said. They're simply rounding numbers based on the number of questions on the test to some nearby value in a way such that not necessarily every integer between 1 and 100 is represented. In other words, if there are 40 questions on the test, you'll have scores of 3 (rounded from 2.5), 5, 8 (rounded from 7.5), 10, etc. You will never have a score of 76 or 94 or 61. I strongly suspect that if he knew exactly how the test was scored, the "missing numbers" explanation would be pretty obvious.

    1. Re:Plus, this just doesn't make sense by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why would someone manipulate the exact same numbers to be missing across all of the exams?

       
      In a word: numerology.

    2. Re:Plus, this just doesn't make sense by stdarg · · Score: 1

      I mean, not just for one student, but all the way across the board?

      You wouldn't do it for a single student since that would make it obvious who benefited.

      In other words, if there are 40 questions on the test, you'll have scores of 3 (rounded from 2.5), 5, 8 (rounded from 7.5), 10, etc. You will never have a score of 76 or 94 or 61.

      Yeah but you wouldn't have a 97 or 99 either. The guy talks about this.. there are enough consecutive sequences of non-zero counts that it can't be due to rounding.

      It's definitely possible that the missing numbers aren't malicious or evidence of someone having tampered with them, but if we assume that, there must be an awfully convoluted and/or buggy algorithm at work.

  38. Re:and how many people just cramed the test by msauve · · Score: 0

    You're making uninformed assumptions. My example was for a simple case, merely to illustrate.

    Why don't you tell us exactly how many questions are in each section? What type of questions, T/F, multiple choice, etc. Any bonus questions, or bonus points available only when a question or score is achieved? Is there a time component? Is a "curve" applied above a certain percentile to differentiate between test takers? Any essay questions requiring subjective scoring?

    --
    "National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
  39. Re:not even hacking just URL typing with fixed ID by garcia · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Back in late 2009 and early 2010 I was scraping jail inmate registry records for Scott and Dakota County, MN. This was simply a script which incremented the ID numbers by one several times a day and put them out into a CSV. I uploaded these to Google Docs and had Docs Widgets build simple charts based on those data for a rolling ~6 month window of inmates.

    As I started looking deeper into the data I started noticing I had ages lower than 18. Odd I thought but sure enough, Scott County was including their juvenile records in the data mixed with the adults even though it wasn't shown on their public website.

    I contacted the County and they fixed the bug (you can read about that here: http://www.lazylightning.org/scott-county-quickly-fixes-juvenile-jail-roster-issue) but I was still surprised at the relative lack of security for juvenile records:

    Within mere minutes of my e-mail they were on the phone with me and informed me they closed the hole. After mentioning that the only way someone may have been able to retrieve a juvenile record is if they âoeguessedâ the booking number, I replied that the booking numbers are sequential and thus âoeguessingâ is as simple as incrementing by 1. After our short discussion they asked me to let them know immediately if I noticed anything else with their data and the call was ended.

    It's surprising how lax security is anywhere and to the poster elsewhere in this thread that said this is what you get when you outsource to India, this particular web stuff was not performed with outsourced talent so that comment was nothing short of asinine.

  40. that explanation doesn't fly by Chirs · · Score: 1

    There are ranges where every integer is represented, other ranges where every other one is missing.

    The real smoking gun is that several grades just below a passing grade appear to be promoted up to pass.

    1. Re:that explanation doesn't fly by j-beda · · Score: 2

      There are ranges where every integer is represented, other ranges where every other one is missing.

      The real smoking gun is that several grades just below a passing grade appear to be promoted up to pass.

      If you recognize that your evaluation system only has an accuracy of +/- 3% it does make some sense to bump up those below the passing grade by that much to the level of the passing grade. It also saves a whole lot of resources by not having to field requests for regrades and reevaluations from all of those students who are just barely below the cutoff.

      When your tools are imperfect (and they all are), there is no absolutely "fair" way of dividing a large group into two mutually exclusive categories. You might be able to say with high confidence "Those who scored a 60 or above know their stuff" and "Those who scored 40 or below do not know enough", but the ones closer to the cutoff are much harder to judge with confidence.

      Politically it is easier to bump up the marginal ones. People well below the cutoff line generally do not ask for special treatment as they know they did very poorly, and those who got bumped up won't complain about it because they benefited and they don't even know that they got special treatment. As always, it sucks to be just shy of the "new" line, but if you don't know that the line is there, it doesn't hurt as much.

    2. Re:that explanation doesn't fly by reve_etrange · · Score: 1

      there is no absolutely "fair" way of dividing a large group into two mutually exclusive categories

      Most insightful thing I've read all week.

      --
      .: Semper Absurda :.
  41. Looks like mark scaling by Excelcia · · Score: 1

    The results look to me like some sort of scaling. In fact, if you load up Gimp, take a photo and go into levels and compress the input levels, when you go back and look at the levels again the graph will look almost identical to what these marks graphs look like. It looks to me like the marks spread is being expanded and the algorithm isn't smooth.

  42. Re:not even hacking just URL typing with fixed ID by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Opening an unlocked window to a house you don't own or rent is "breaking and entering". There's a "Bait Car" show in the US where the police leave an open-door car on the street. They arrest anyone who open the door and takes anything. It's worse for those who drive the car away.

    I can imagine "modifying GET parameters" is similar legally to an open car door. I am not an attorney.

  43. i think he's mostly wrong! by pezpunk · · Score: 1

    the thing he seems most concerned about are that out of 200,000 or so students, there are many marks that were not received, especially in the middle sections of the grades. values like 81, 83, 85, etc. were earned by zero students while values like 80, 82, 84 were received by tons.

    this seems absurdly easy to explain.

    say students are graded on a 50-point scale, which is then doubled (eliminating half of all possible values), and then some kind of curve is applied, which bends some values into other-wise unattainable scores, especially at the uppermost and lowermost values, but shifts things a little in the middle too, so that things don't work out exactly that only even values are attainable or whatever. that would result in a similar-looking distribution.

    his numbers DO show substantial evidence that people just below passing are being bumped up to passing grades. although again it's hard to know for sure without knowing how the exam is weighted.

    --
    i could live a little longer in this prison
    1. Re:i think he's mostly wrong! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Again, it was most probably not doubled, but multiplied by something like between 2.1 and 1.9.

    2. Re:i think he's mostly wrong! by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      But they're not graded on a 50 point scale which is doubled. The jaggedness is not consistent. All scores from 95-100 are represented on some charts, or will have smoother numbers below 30.

      If there was such a factor, you'd expect to see different patterns of it when looking at each different exam, since the exams are all scored and weighted in different ways. And yet every graph shows the exact same patterns.

    3. Re:i think he's mostly wrong! by cbhacking · · Score: 1

      That would be believable, if it weren't for the fact that in some places you have pairs of unattainable values (55,56,57 is even a triplet) and in other places you have smooth lines that represent the expected distribution of values (95-100 I pretty reasonable-looking, as is 25-30). There's no way a spreading algorithm not specifically designed to produce bullshit of that nature would leave such a huge gap near the middle of the range, but have smooth regions at the top of the range and near the 27% mark (top and bottom both I might see, but not top and then merely low).

      No. If you look at the top-6 stacked graph, it's pretty clearly indicated that a lot of people who should have gotten a 70 got a 69 instead, and perhaps 71 got promoted to 72. A fair stretching algorithm wouldn't produce those weird spikes and dips (even on the all-marks graph, why is 62 so much lower than everything else that even got a score within a range of +/- 5? Why is 72 so much higher than the scores on either side?).

      Ascribing to malice, because you simply can't be this incompetent by accident...

      --
      There's no place I could be, since I've found Serenity...
  44. Re:and how many people just cramed the test by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why would you expect a Poisson distribution?

  45. War Games?!? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ... and a ticket for Paris...

  46. Finally... by PRMan · · Score: 1, Informative

    Was I the only one reading the article thinking, "Finally, a developer from India that can think deeply about a problem without being told what to do, and then write software that works..."?

    --
    Peter predicted that you would "deliberately forget" creation 2000 years ago...
    1. Re:Finally... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I was thinking "He read through all that javascript? Why didn't he use Firebug to watch the network connections?"

    2. Re:Finally... by vinod4linux · · Score: 1

      Where have you looked? Where I work (Bay Area, CA), there are many many top notch developers/Architects educated in India. Personally, I think education is up to individuals.. no one can force it on a person. If one intends to learn, they can do so regardless of the quality of facilities. Independent thinking is a reflection of society.. free societies will have more independent thinkers.

    3. Re:Finally... by PRMan · · Score: 1

      I have had developers (and QA) here that were pretty good once I trained them to think outside the box. But they never come straight from India that way.

      --
      Peter predicted that you would "deliberately forget" creation 2000 years ago...
    4. Re:Finally... by reve_etrange · · Score: 1

      I guess you missed the part about him going to Cornell and working at Google?

      --
      .: Semper Absurda :.
  47. Some basic problems with this story by DeathToBill · · Score: 2, Insightful

    "Hacked" means "retrieved from a web server in the way they were intended to be retrieved." The fact the webserver was completely unsecured is, however, worrying.

    "Widespread grade tampering" means "statistical evidence that the final grades are not the raw grades, but have been adjusted according to some system as yet unidentified." The nature of the adjustment is as yet unidentified - it could be nefarious, or is much more likely to be according to policy. Pretty much every school system in existence does this.

    So the headline should really read, "Student stumbles across results on unsecured website and doesn't understand the grading system." It's not really news.

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    1. Re:Some basic problems with this story by JoshuaZ · · Score: 4, Informative

      You should read the original http://deedy.quora.com/Hacking-into-the-Indian-Education-System. The missing scores are in extremely suspicious positions. For example, there are no scores of 32,33 and 34, and the minimum pass grade if 35. That looks pretty close to a bump to get people to pass. This doesn't look like someone not understanding the grading system. It looks like manipulation. Frankly, speaking as someone who does a fair bit of grading, yes one can get weird distributions from legitimate adjustments, but they don't look like this.

    2. Re:Some basic problems with this story by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Pretty much every school system in existence does this."

      Citation?

    3. Re:Some basic problems with this story by DeathToBill · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I've read the original. Whether your policy can produce that sort of distribution depends entirely on what the policy is, no?

      As an example of a system that produces exactly this sort of pattern, at my university the pass grade was 50%. Anyone who scored at least 45% but less than 50% in the exam could apply to sit a supplementary exam a few weeks later. The supplementary exam score would then be your final score, but the maximum mark available in the supplementary exam is 50%. If this results in you scoring 50% then the subject is recorded as a "conceded pass". You can only take one conceded pass in a year and many degree programs also limit how many conceded passes you can count towards your degree.

      It's a system that lets you have another go if you had a bad day in an exam and, yes, in many subjects it produces this pattern of no-one receiving 45, 46, 47, 48 or 49 and a big lump of people receiving 50.

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      Slashdot - News for Nerds, Stuff that Matters, in ISO-8859-1 Has just realised that beta makes this signature redundant
    4. Re:Some basic problems with this story by malakai · · Score: 1

      From his article:

      I wanted to impress someone who looks up to me and on the other, I thought "break into the ICSE? This isn't Hollywood - you can't just hack into everything, kiddo"

      And then an addendum in response to an article:

      The article states "A 20-year-old Indian student from Cornell University hacked into the database ... " This is technically incorrect. I did no such thing. I did not illegally access any database system. All I did was access information that was available to any person who entered a number into the website could access. I simply mined the data and then analyzed it to reveal some interesting and disturbing trends"

      Yet he titled his post:
      Hacking into the Indian Education System

      The phrase "You can't have your cake and eat it" comes to mind.

      These script 'attacks' or 'queries' against websites fall into an odd grey area. Is it a hack? In a script kiddie kind of way, it is. That feels like an emotional characterization on my part.

      Can you call yourself a hacker for doing this? No. At least, I think you'll find the majority of people who have skills in that area that exceed or meet your own will not consider you a hacker or this a hack.

      Is it legally a hack? Maybe. We've seen people brute force their way into iPhone data using nothing more than GET queries and computer integers. But then later release private data and preened about it on IRC.

      As with most laws, I think the devil is in the context. I routinely 'hack' GET methods, jumping to a higher Index id on xHamster w/o having to click the next page 25 times... I doubt i'm on the most wanted list. But if I manipulated a page to return information that I wasn't intended access too... well.. that's the line. At least in my book.

    5. Re:Some basic problems with this story by argStyopa · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The criticism seems rather pedantic. I'm the last one to defend the barely-reading, never-correcting, link-to-blog-post-instead-of-actual-article, duplicate-posting slasheditors, but the fact is:
      1) the server has a place where you put in a code and, i'd guess, a passcode. He looked at the code, determined the data was being drawn by a simple java query to an unsecured text file. Did he get the data the way it was intended? CERTAINLY not. Did he essentially 'break in' through what was relatively tissue-thin (derived from obscurity only, really) security? Yes, I'd say he did. So yes, in MOST people's definitions, he 'hacked' their shitty website.
      2) WTF are you talking about? Every school system in existence ADJUSTS grades on standardized tests? Proof? The guy discovered that something like of the passing scores (everything > 35), like 40% of the possible scores NEVER showed up. Ie, nobody *ever* got a score of 82, 84, 91, or 93, while 94-100 was regularly distributed. Mathematical anomaly? Maybe. But that seems unlikely with a massive test, and multiple added scores that this is possible.

      I think what he discovered was a ridiculously insecure web service, and a list of grade scores that have suspiciously regular omissions.

      So "hacked" and "possible grade tampering" seems pretty spot on.

      --
      -Styopa
    6. Re:Some basic problems with this story by JoshuaZ · · Score: 1

      There's nothing like that in the system in question though in anything discussed publicly as far as I can tell. although your basic point is a sound one. Note that if you had a very large system, like say your university system but done in a hundred schools then you'd expect to see still a few people in the 45-49 range. But you are correct, there could be some issue like that, but if so, no one has identified it yet. But you are correct that this sort of thing can happen, and your point makes me update in the direction of large-scale tampering looking less likely.

      The main issue why I'm still slightly inclined to think that this might not be due to cheating is motivation: the central body has no motivation to cheat except in specific cases of bribery, so one would expect cheating issues to occur not completely universally in the data set. This does suggest that possibly some weird distribution work is here, because the result is too extreme. Actually, thinking about it more, the argument made in the article that the extremely low scores should have been hit is also weak, since it is possible that some questions were just gimmes or that testing made so that no one got below a certain score (like how the SAT functions). Moreover, his claim that if one has a wide distribution in the upper range then one needs to get all the low scores doesn't really follow, if one has a lot of questions in the 5-10 point range, and the 5 and 6 point questions are tough questions, then that sort of thing could be quite natural. But even in that context, it still seems from the total set of anomalies like something weird is going on.

    7. Re:Some basic problems with this story by DeathToBill · · Score: 1

      No.

      1, there was no passcode. He retrieved the data in exactly the way it was intended, just on a much larger scale than was intended.

      2, "Every school system" is perhaps an exaggeration, but many education systems do deliberately manipulate scores to fit a distribution. It's justified in various ways. For instance, suppose that in one particular year the physics exam was unusually difficult. That would disadvantage everyone who took physics compared to everyone else. So you might choose to redistribute scores to some pattern on the assumption that the distribution of ability over a large sample will be about the same from year to year and that any movement of the distribution of grades from year to year is because of differences in the assessment method, not in the students.

      I'm getting the impression that this practice of redistributing grades is pretty uncommon in the USA. It's bog standard in Australia (where I went to school) and most of Western Europe. For other areas, I can't say.

      From that point, whether your system produces the particular patterns this guy is observing depends on how weird and wonderful your system is.

      I'm not saying that there is definitely nothing to see here; I'm saying there are perfectly reasonable, rational explanations and that this guy has jumped a long way to arrive at "tampering" and "fraud". See my comment a few up for an example of a system that deliberately reproduces some of the effects.

      Of course, it's also very easy to imagine software defects that would produce some of these effects - it looks like about 90% of the numbers have been through a system that truncates them to integer percentage points...

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    8. Re:Some basic problems with this story by PRMan · · Score: 1

      People CAN get below 200 on the SAT. That's just what you get for turning it in empty. But since there are penalties for guessing, people actually get less than that. (Source: I used to work on a database in an Admissions office.)

      --
      Peter predicted that you would "deliberately forget" creation 2000 years ago...
    9. Re:Some basic problems with this story by minstrelmike · · Score: 1

      Seems to me if the missing scores are proof of cheating, they cannot be proof of widespread cheating, i.e. cheating done by different people or orgs in different places. If that sort of cheating were happening, the scores would be more randomly distributed.

      I think the missing scores are proof of some sort of algorithm, either intentional cheating or just regular scoring to a curve.

    10. Re:Some basic problems with this story by gl4ss · · Score: 1

      they weren't intended to be retrieved in that way.
      it could be framed as number of things in court. ranging from unauthorized computer system access to identity theft. doesn't matter that the website was a joke..

      I'm pretty sure not every school system with such a huge number of people graduating skew the numbers this bad. the charts are a bit funny, at first it seems like there was just certain amount of points possible from the questions, but then you realize that isn't possible..

      --
      world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
    11. Re:Some basic problems with this story by Comrade+Ogilvy · · Score: 1

      Having TA'd lower division courses at a large university, I think the "pretty much every school system in existence does this" is likely to be true.

      For some reason, people carry a lot of per-conceptions about test scores being in a 0-100 range and the magic of numbers like 70, 80, 90.

      If I write a mid-term, the most natural scoring rubric might be to give 1, 2, 3, or 4 points for each of 3 questions. Now that I have scores from 0-12, what do I do? I multiply by 5 and add 40 (perhaps). But maybe the correct cutoff points do not fall at conveniently near 70, 80, 90. (A score of 3 on 3 questions, translates to 85.) Do I rescale? If I do not rescale, I know I will get students whining "Hey, I scored 80. I DESERVE a B!" And what about the zeros that are rescaled to 60, should I do something about that?

      With the convenience of computers, it is really easy to rescale things. How or why they were rescaled that way is not likely to be understood by a casual outsider who did not see the sausage being made.

    12. Re:Some basic problems with this story by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Hacked" means "retrieved from a web server in the way they were intended to be retrieved." The fact the webserver was completely unsecured is, however, worrying.

      That was not how they were intended to be retrieved. Intent is clear here. He knew he was bypassing the intended retrieval method. How many times does this have to be explained. Just because it was easy doesn't make it right, ethical or legal. Hell, he had to use a network of computers to download everything. It's it obvious that's not the intended method.

      Anyway, it's obvious the writer knows almost nothing about how the exam is graded or how statistics work. His reasoning about why certain grades must exist is flawed and you're correct. You can retake this exam, so that would explain why there aren't any people close to passing.

      1, there was no passcode. He retrieved the data in exactly the way it was intended, just on a much larger scale than was intended.

      So it wasn't done as intended. Are you daft? He states that grades should be private, then intentionally spends hours of his time creating a system of scripts to download an entire nations worth of grades. He also misused university property.

    13. Re:Some basic problems with this story by JoshuaZ · · Score: 1

      Wow. I mean, I know in principle that can happen, but that it actually happens in practice is pretty appalling.

    14. Re:Some basic problems with this story by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I write as someone who has taken similar exams in India and somewhat familiar with the system.

      Comments :
      1. Unlike in the US, there is culturally no concept of privacy of grades or exam student ID numbers. It is regular/common practice for the grades to be printed and posted on display boards right from primary school to universities. The only secrecy involves perhaps, physically securing the exam papers.
      2. There are a plethora of different boards in India which conduct these exams such as CBSE, ICSE, HSC etc. It is common knowledge that grades boosted by the graders to the next higher tier.
      For example : If the pass mark is 45, then graders will try and boost actual scores of say 41 : 44 to 45, so that the kid passes the exam and so on and so forth.
      3. Frequently the boards will boost scores in like manner to adjust for difference between the boards.
      4. If you look at the distribution carefully, the 90-100 scores have not been boosted and follow a smooth distribution, this is because the real action is in those grades. i.e. only kids with scores of 90 + have any realistic chance of making it to good top tier universities.

      Many things are way different in India for example see : http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-22772391

      In my humble opinion this 'hack' is not a story worthy of Slashdot.
       

    15. Re:Some basic problems with this story by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      Yes, but what if every single subject resulted in test scores that gave identical jagged peaks that lined up at exactly the same scores? It is extremely unlikely to have things line up just right when the subject matter and numbers/types of questions are so different.

      Also this jaggedness vanishes at high and low ranges. What sort of wacky scoring system would skip every other number, but only between the scores of 30 and 95?

      Yes I agree that there are some hypothetical scoring systems on some hypothetical tests that might result in missing some grade numbers and some jaggedness. However we KNOW what these tests are like, they are not hypothetical and millions of students take them. The numbers all add up to 100, they are not multiplied.

    16. Re:Some basic problems with this story by Arker · · Score: 1

      I dont think any of these suggestions hold water looking at the total distribution and the size of the sample. This isnt a small sample, it's simply too large to see that sort of distribution without some sort of systematic explanation. It seems to me obvious that the scores have been altered systematically. It would have to have been in accord with some sort of policy and it would have to be pretty strictly enforced for there to be no exceptions in that large a data set. I dont know what the policy is or whether or not it is ultimately legit, but it certainly looks like something that bears investigating. If the national testing body is systematically altering scores it seems like something the public in that country would have a right to know about, and something they should be required to defend in public rather than simply doing secretly.

      --
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    17. Re:Some basic problems with this story by Comrade+Ogilvy · · Score: 1

      Surely there is no luck involved, you are right about that. The jaggedness is an artifact of some kind of systematic method of rescaling. Whether it is an actual useful kind of rescaling from our POV is doubtful, but someone probably did it for some reason that made sense to them.

      Just to throw a hypothetical, maybe they only grade half the test, and then multiply by 2? They then more carefully grade the entire test for the very high and very low scores. That might be considered a cost savings tactic. (Of course that would be a terrible idea, but I am not saying there is a *good* reason for the peculiarities, only that it is not evidence of corruption.)

  48. Re:and how many people just cramed the test by DeathToBill · · Score: 1

    Of course there is a perfectly reasonable explanation for it: The grades are deliberately manipulated to fit some preconceived distribution. Lots of school systems do it very openly. The only surprising there here is that either the school system didn't disclose that they do it or that some idiot wrote an article without checking first. I don't know which: TL;DR.

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    Slashdot - News for Nerds, Stuff that Matters, in ISO-8859-1 Has just realised that beta makes this signature redundant
  49. Re:E-systems WILL be manipulated if motivation exi by pezpunk · · Score: 1

    oh please, people have been stuffing ballot boxes since voting was invented. computer systems aren't inherently any less secure than analog ones. go live in a shack in the woods if you hate progress so much.

    --
    i could live a little longer in this prison
  50. Why is this surprising? by prattle · · Score: 5, Informative
    If the author is surprised (by the grades, not the security), it is because he has never been a teacher.

    1. Teachers have to ensure that their class marks have a certain average and median before they submit them. There can't be too many failures either.

    2. Teachers know not to give a grade of 49 if the pass is 50 since the student will argue to get that missing point. If you want to be safer, just don't give out anything in the forties.

    3. If a test gives letter grades, that equates to a particular number. A = 85, A- = 83, and so on. In that case, no one gets an 84, ever.

    --
    "We are here on Earth to fart around. Don't let anybody tell you any different!" -- Kurt Vonnegut
    1. Re:Why is this surprising? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      This is surprising because the grading is done at a centralized location and the answer sheets are anonymized.
      The procedure goes as follows:
      1. Student writes his exam and hands in the answer sheet.
      2. School collects all the sheets and sends them to the central board.
      3. Central board anonymizes the sheets and assigns the grading procedure to random teachers that they hire. The teachers DO NOT KNOW which part of the country the answer sheet is from, or who the actual student is.
      4. The results, after being graded are deanonymized by the board.
      5. Results are published.

      So, if we are seeing what we are seeing in the article in terms of score distributions, it is not just one teacher taking care of their class, it is a systemic fraud and failure.

    2. Re:Why is this surprising? by minstrelmike · · Score: 1

      Exactly. If scores are missing, it cannot be because of lots of different teachers making changes. Their changes would be just as random as the student scores should be. For the results to end up the way they are, it has to be done in one spot, probably by some algorithm, perhaps as well-written as the web site ;-)

    3. Re:Why is this surprising? by cbhacking · · Score: 1

      It's surprising because you know nothing about how this test works.

      1. It's a standardized test, the correct answers are not subjective, and there are no re-takes allowed. Who the hell do you complain to about your 1-point-off score?
      2. Ensuring a mean and a median are one thing, but these charts don't fit anything even close to a proper distribution. Even if you ignore the missing values, you end up with weird shit like 80 being far less common than 78 and 83 (the two nearest grades that are reported), or the fact that 78 is a local maximum higher than everything between it and 86, but the actual maximum is at 88.
      3. Even a trivial degree of intelligent thought would have made it obvious that there aren't enough letter grades for even half of the 1-100 range. Leaving that (and the fact that the test doesn't use letter grades) aside though, there's a perfectly good proof right in the article that such schemes cannot possibly be the reason for the weird scores: you can get any score from 94-100 (though 94 is more than twice as common as 95, which is only a little more common than 96), but you can't get 93. There simply isn't any system where you can lose 0-6 points, or 8 points, or 10 points... but you can't lose 7 points, or 9 points. That just doesn't make sense.

      Given your demonstrated lack of reading comprehension and reasoning power, I sure hope *you* have never been a teacher...

      --
      There's no place I could be, since I've found Serenity...
    4. Re:Why is this surprising? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you are a teacher, and you are doing anything like what you describe, then you are being exceptionally unethical — and yes, I am a teacher.

      1. Grading to a curve? Really? Let's just call it cooking the books. At least we're being honest then.

      2. Nonsense. You give the mark that's deserved, and if the student wants to contest it, let the student contest it. It does nobody any favours to artificially drop or raise marks. If you end up with a really borderline mark, you take it to your colleagues and get a second opinion.

      3. If your letter grades equate to particular numbers rather than a numeric range, then you're Doing It Wrong. Why not use the numbers in the first place? Do the letters make you feel fuzzy inside, or something like that?

      Or perhaps it's simply that over here (not in the USA, by the way), we have higher standards for our education.

    5. Re:Why is this surprising? by dcollins · · Score: 1

      Whatever you're basing your observations on, it's in a completely corrupt and fraudulent school system. I have never heard of these practices (especially #1, that's totally ludicrous) being applied anywhere. And #3 is simply flat-out not applicable to this test: the official story is that they are "raw scores" on a test that awards points in half-percent increments.

      --
      We know where leadership by an anti-intellectual "strongman" who scapegoats minorities and likes boisterous rallies goes
  51. Re:and how many people just cramed the test by i+kan+reed · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Are you trying to mock educational standards by pretending to be someone who failed statistics?

    Poisson distributions have to do with frequency of repeatable events over time. You meant Gaussian or Normal distribution.

  52. Re:not even hacking just URL typing with fixed ID by ArsenneLupin · · Score: 1
    This is ridiculous. I've seen twitter notification mails which miss a slash in the middle of the URL that they are sending. So, is adding that slash back a crime?

    With typoes and various bugs so prevalent in web server software all over the world, it's unreasonable to postulate malicious intent for changing URLs.

  53. Re:and how many people just cramed the test by emilper · · Score: 0

    the test results does not have to be a smooth curve, poisson or otherwise

    for example there are 10 questions and you get a number of points if you answer a question right, or you get none if you do not. If the number of points you get for answering each of those questions are not the same, the curve will not look smooth and there will be gaps.

    the jagged lines do not indicate cheating, at most poorly designed exam questions

  54. What!? by X86BSD · · Score: 2

    Cheating and corruption in *India*?! No. Fucking. Way! I expect nothing less in the rape capital of the world. P.s. my wife is indian and I have first experience with how corrupt and vile that country is. From cops, to repairmen to government officials.

    1. Re:What!? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They took you jerb?

    2. Re:What!? by gl4ss · · Score: 1

      They took you jerb?

      even indians know how corrupt it is. why do you think they're so eager to move out to a country where they have to do their own laundry given the chance? it's not racist, just a matter of fact.

      --
      world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
  55. Re:not even hacking just URL typing with fixed ID by mathew42 · · Score: 1

    This reminds me of back before 2000, when a new grad was asked to write a simple website for businesses registering for GST in Australia. He used the same technique with no authentication on the URL. It wasn't a pleasant experience to turn up at a client site and be greeted by the question "Didn't your company build this website?" and to be shown the newspaper article. As the GST was highly political the Australian Federal Police (AFP) paid a visit to the office.

  56. Re:not even hacking just URL typing with fixed ID by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Actually it does mean you have permission to do so. It doesn't mean the owners meant to give you permission, however.

    No, that's not what permission means, in law or even in regular usage.

    Permission means that someone consciously intended to grant you access. It does not mean that they failed to deny you access.

  57. Re:and how many people just cramed the test by parkinglot777 · · Score: 2

    You need to read TFA http://deedy.quora.com/Hacking-into-the-Indian-Education-System that should give you an idea of what the person in the article talks about with tampering data. Even with 1 question asked in the test, the score range should not be this ugly or the evaluation/grading method is not up to par. TLDR summary, it is statistically impossible to miss that "many" score points between 1~100 from this size of data.

    On a side note, I am not sure whether the person is going to jail... I hope there won't be "mysteriously missing or injured" person because India culture is not a western culture...

  58. Re:and how many people just cramed the test by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    That's Poisson process, which in turn provides a parameter for a Poisson distribution. A Poisson distribution can be used in other applications.

  59. Re:and how many people just cramed the test by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

    The author fails to take some things into account however, and Im not totally convinced because of the holes in his reasoning. For example:

    One of the most common critiques of my theory was this - maybe there were questions with only 3 or 4 mark intervals in all subjects making certain marks mathematically unattainable. My counterargument? All numbers from 94 to 100 are attainable and have been attained. What does this mean? It means that increments of 1 to 6 are attainable. By extension, all numbers from 0 to 100 are achievable.... If 99 and 98 were definitely achievable with deductions of 1 and 2 respectively, this means one of two cases - there is a question A worth 1 mark that made 99 occur, and a question B worth 2 maks that made 98 occur, which meant getting A and B both wrong would mean 97 could occur.

    Unless, of course, there are 2 1-point questions on the test, and all the rest are 4-point questions, in which case a 99, 98, and 96 would be attainable, but 97 would not. Perhaps the majority of questions were multi-part, worth multiple points, and getting a part wrong meant getting the whole wrong.

    It definately looks wierd and he may be on to something, but you cant go from "I found some data, and I dont know if its all of the data or a subset, but man does it look wierd --> everyone must be cheating". The results are indeed odd but the number of assumptions this guy made was staggering. He apparently doesnt know that much about the test, nor about the website he pulled data from, or whether he got all of the data, or why the school codes are different depending on the test, or whether there might be non-sequential student IDs.... but he sure is ready to start doing statistical analysis.

    Half of the problem is that Slashdot sucks at making non-hysterical headlines.

  60. Re:and how many people just cramed the test by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 1

    Because some people who scored high on the math actually deserve to be there.

    --
    (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
  61. Re:not even hacking just URL typing with fixed ID by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

    Thats right, you use those ad hominems.

  62. Re:and how many people just cramed the test by Lumpy · · Score: 1

    Unless it's not grade data but raw data. Everyone is ASSUMING it's final calculated scores.

    --
    Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
  63. Ummm.... isn't this stolen data? by Excelcia · · Score: 1

    So my first reaction was like most people, wondering what caused the staccato marks spread. But then I started asking, hey, isn't this stolen data? Sure the security sucked, but what efforts did he take to correct the problem or bring it to the proper attention before he announced to the entire whole world how anyone could steal personal information on hundreds of thousands of students? With detailed instructions.

    This is at best unethical. Hopefully it's illegal in his jurisdiction.

    1. Re:Ummm.... isn't this stolen data? by KZigurs · · Score: 1

      If you are an organisation in charge of fairly personal details of the upcoming generation and you somehow decide to put in on a public web server in nice sequential HTML pages (not even attempting to add any kind of authentication), plus, miss the traffic spike by somebody downloading the hell out of it from small subset of IP's...

      There used to be laws that protected people that pointed out large scale incompetence by organisations that really should know better. If I found 20 boxes containing the tax records of most senior government officials while working in landfill, I wouldn't be the guilty party. Whoever failed to secure them properly would be looking at end of his career if not a criminal liability though.

      There is NO expectation of privacy once you put something on a public server. There is no such thing as *private* server if it is accessible by public. Your server authorises access to the information when it responds to an ordinary request with 'yup, here you go'.

  64. Re:and how many people just cramed the test by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Question: Are the harder questions the ones that can be given a fractional grade? If so, think about the implications.

  65. Re:not even hacking just URL typing with fixed ID by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Opening an unlocked window to a house you don't own or rent is "breaking and entering".

    opening an unlocked to a house you don't own if it is unlocked in the vast majority of places is not breaking and entering. breaking and entering usually requires bypassing some kind of security system.

    If after you have opened said window it is trespassing. In many places with civil trespass laws you could jump though an unlocked window and so long as you didn't steal or try to steal anything physical you would be guilty of no crime.

    There's a "Bait Car" show in the US where the police leave an open-door car on the street. They arrest anyone who open the door and takes anything. It's worse for those who drive the car away.

    In this case the offence is theft. Not getting into the car

  66. Re:not even hacking just URL typing with fixed ID by ub3r+n3u7r4l1st · · Score: 1

    IANAL, but there are cases being prosecuted for violating Computer Fraud and Abuse Act for "exceeding authorized access".

    In the eyes of the prosecutors, "exceeding authorized access" = "unauthorized access" = "hacking".

  67. Re:not even hacking just URL typing with fixed ID by mspohr · · Score: 2

    You're lucky that they responded appropriately by calling you and fixing the problem.
    The usual response is to accuse you of being a terrorist/hacker/anarchist/etc. and try to put you in jail.

    --
    I don't read your sig. Why are you reading mine?
  68. The marks adjustment is valid by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Unlike here in the US, a student's career can break based on one final exam in a year. There is no aggregation of marks from small tests, discussions, assignments, etc. like in a college here. If a student has a flu, he is forced to attend and scribble something on a paper. Examiners become human and think that it would cause injustice if someone has to fail with marks of 32,33,34. They therefore bump it up. Also, there are certain marks which can immediately trigger a revaluation; too many revaluations could put the examiner at risk. Overall, they just want to say if a person made it out of school and if they were top grade, medium, bottom or did not make it out of school at all. At that, they do their jobs justly. Even if a student scores top marks, he will anyway have to settle for a job less than the top, given the nepotism in the job market there.

  69. BAN F, J visas, H1-Bs from India by PhuckIndian · · Score: 0

    Their culture consist entirely of fraud and deceit, I haven't seen a good one except those running 7-11s. Most of those I see in graduate school cheat their way through it. Same with H1-Bs. They are unwilling to learn new stuff, just to show up, get the cheque, and hope some white girl will have sex and marry them, and get a green card that way. Their skin color tells you there are no difference between them and the ni66ers There is an old saying, "Kiss my ass I'm Indian, my ass smells like curry!"

  70. Mod parent up by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Kiss my ass I'm Indian, my ass smells like curry!"

    This makes my day!

    1. Re:Mod parent up by pezpunk · · Score: 1

      racism makes your day? cool bro.

      --
      i could live a little longer in this prison
  71. Facts be damned by oxygen_deprived · · Score: 2

    For those who dont read TFA
    1. Kid figures out query params and post fileds in http
    2. Kid mines data from a public web server to get publicly available information.
    3. Kid "analyzes" data statiscally, finds a pattern to grading
    4. Kid dubs it tampering. (Tampering would be if the evaluators grading were to be replaced with something else. )
    5. Tech dumb media latches onto the story, makes a celebrity out of a kid scraping data off a website.
    6. Education agency is pissed off for really no fault of theirs. I mean ... why is there an expectation that the results should have been secured ? The results are posted on dead tree on all school notice boards. You could go around each of those school, and gathered the same data.
    Where is the effing breach Potential Consequences:
    Agency lodges police complaint based on media reports (India has overbroad cyber crime laws, people have been arrested for making anti gov remarks on facebook)
    Kid gets arrested when he land in India in the summer vacation
    Kid asked to surrender passport till the court decides on the case
    Case drags for years
    Kid screwed
    Slashdot : news from half assed unverified sources, stuff that ...I dont given an eff

    1. Re:Facts be damned by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If I were him I will immediately seek political asylum status in the U.S. , and don't go back to India until you acquire another citizenship.

    2. Re:Facts be damned by ub3r+n3u7r4l1st · · Score: 1

      "Kid gets arrested when he land in India in the summer vacation"

      Doesn't even need to. Indian Police Service refers the case to Interpol, where it will contact the US Department of Justice to issue a federal arrest warrant and extradition request on him for "hacking across state lines"

  72. ok everyone just go read the article by gl4ss · · Score: 1

    "There are missing scores (from 1-100) "
    Without knowing how many questions are given in each section, and how they're scored, that's not possible to say. The set of possible scores doesn't necessarily include every value from 1-100.
    If there are 30 questions in a section, and it's scored on a straight percentage basis, you're going to see discrete peaks every 3.33%, and nothing in between. Gosh, just like on the graphs.
    That doesn't explain the odd overall distributions, however.

    94-100 or so were attainable. there's an entire paragraph devoted to how it can't be that the questions had such a scoring system which made certain numbers unattainable.

    scores leading to the cut off point at bottom end were not attainable. the tampering is that everyone under a certain score by certain amount were upgraded to the passing grade.

    now there wouldn't be a problem if the passing grade was supposed to be -4 of what it is. the baffling thing is that it seems that EVERY FUCKING AUDITOR in the system was doing this! so one way it's not fair but on the other hand, meh. (it's actually unfair to the people who got just the passing grade on their own)

    --
    world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
    1. Re:ok everyone just go read the article by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      now there wouldn't be a problem if the passing grade was supposed to be -4 of what it is. the baffling thing is that it seems that EVERY FUCKING AUDITOR in the system was doing this!

      Think about multiple years and variations in test difficulty: you want roughly the same number of students to pass every year, and you also want the official passing score to be fixed so people have a known benchmark in advance.

      So one year, you have a hard test, and too many people fell below the fixed passing score. You could just add 4 points to everyone, but that bumps some scores over 100. You could renormalize, but then you are compressing the range and losing resolution at the high end. So you compromise and you give the auditors an adjustment factor to compensate for variations in test difficulty. Does that mean that kids that got a 35/100 are getting mixed in with kids that got a 32/100? Yeah, but that's not a big deal.

  73. Re:and how many people just cramed the test by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm randomly opening comments, just to put you in the know, the entire paper is subjective. We barely have any truly objective questions in this grade 10/12 board examinations.

    I don't understand the fuss about it at all, it's just silly.

  74. Re:and how many people just cramed the test by jkflying · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Why don't you just read the fucking article instead of trying to come up with your own wackjob explanation? He quite clearly explains it:

    One of the most common critiques of my theory was this - maybe there were questions with only 3 or 4 mark intervals in all subjects making certain marks mathematically unattainable. My counterargument? All numbers from 94 to 100 are attainable and have been attained. What does this mean? It means that increments of 1 to 6 are attainable. By extension, all numbers from 0 to 100 are achievable.
    Let me give you an example. If 99 and 98 were definitely achievable with deductions of 1 and 2 respectively, this means one of two cases - there is a question A worth 1 mark that made 99 occur, and a question B worth 2 maks that made 98 occur, which meant getting A and B both wrong would mean 97 could occur. Case 2 - Question A was worth 1 mark, and question B was worth 1 mark too. The 99 got A wrong, and the 98 got A and B wrong. By this logic, if 97 were not possible, it would mean that there is no other question of 1 mark in the examination or that nobody got a 2 point question wrong and question A or B.

    Basically, because 99, 98 and 97 were all attained, then any increment of 1, 2 or 3 points should be possible. The fact that nobody got 80% in any subject in the entire country points to widespread tampering.

    --
    Help I am stuck in a signature factory!
  75. Re:and how many people just cramed the test by war4peace · · Score: 1

    Such a test would resemble dumb Facebook games:
      Achievement unlocked: clicked mouse.
      Achievement unlocked: typed your name.
      BONUS Achievement unlocked: +5 points. Buy more with your credit card!

    --
    ...gis sdrawkcab (usually not responding to ACs; don't bother posting as AC)
  76. Re:not even hacking just URL typing with fixed ID by SecurityTheatre · · Score: 1

    Yes, extremely lucky. I wouldn't trifle with law enforcement folks like that. They seem to have a hair trigger sometimes, and not always with their guns. Especially if embarrassed publicly. I'm glad you didn't go to the media. You would likely be in the selfsame list of offenders now, if you had.

  77. Easier to deal with even numbers than odd by neosaurus · · Score: 1

    All the exam papers are hand corrected and manually totaled. During the grading process, the graders tend to give marks which total to an even number. For example, say the total up until the previous question is 23. Then if the next question is for 6 marks, the grader might assign 5 marks for that answer to get the total so far to 28. Mental arithmetic of even numbers is easier and this saves the grader from going over two passes to obtain the total at the end. All of these several hundred thousand papers are manually graded between the end of exams in April and the declaration of results in June.

    The graders only work with a roll number and school number so they have no information about the identity of the student when grading. This has nothing to do with the caste system as some people here are suggesting. The identity of the student is matched with the roll number *after* the papers are graded.

  78. Re:not even hacking just URL typing with fixed ID by Will.Woodhull · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The examples in parent post are wrong.

    "Breaking and entering" requires physical trespass. There is no trespass involved when using the GET method, which is part of a standard and open protocol, to request a web page, which in this case is unencrypted and easily read by anyone who asks for it.

    The "bait car" analogy fails miserably. There is no property theft involved in what was described by TFA since nobody was deprived of use of anything. In the general case, "intellectual property" is not physical property and courts need to recognize the differences.

    If anyone needs a physical analog of what this fellow has done, it is like this:

    Imagine that for reasons unknown, the New York City Board of Education recorded the student ids and test scores as graffiti on all the park benches in Central Park. Where any passer-by could read them. Each student was directed to the bench where their data was recorded (in indelible magic marker), and the BoE patted itself on the back for having found a way to make use of all those benches. Then this guy comes along and develops an efficient way to go from bench to bench to bench... Data on the Internet, accessible without any protection to anyone who had or could construct the URL, is as freely available as any graffiti written on a park bench.

    Questions should begin with why the India agency responsible for handling this data put up these web pages without involving anyone who had a year or more of training in information management techniques. They certainly had persons on staff who would have avoided making the JavaScript so readily accessible, and there should have been some kind of password scheme so that only the student would be able to access his own scores. Why were their in house experts not involved? It is as if those who were delegated to build the web site did not want to involve anyone who knew enough about data management that they would become suspicious about it being manipulated.

    I think there is more than enough evidence here that something is very corrupt in the India education system. Even if the data obtained had not been so obviously altered, the grossly amateur handling of highly personal information stinks to high heaven.

    --
    Will
  79. Re:and how many people just cramed the test by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

    Raw data - unscaled, unaltered by any postprocessing - is more likely to have no holes than some sort of screwy post-processed score set.

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    Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
  80. This should be no surprise by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    People from over there are inherently fucking stupid. And they like to gang rape women. They have a lot of problems.

    Source: Working with outsourced laborers in India and the daily news.

  81. Re:not even hacking just URL typing with fixed ID by Maximum+Prophet · · Score: 1

    Actually it does mean you have permission to do so. It doesn't mean the owners meant to give you permission, however.

    That's why you need to be a lawyer to understand this. It's possible that for a given State or Federal law that the owner's intent is what's important, not their implementation. And the intent of the defendant is also a factor.
    So, if the owner intended the site to be secure, and the defendant intended to break that security, the actual security might be irrelevant.

    IANAL, YMMV, talk to a lawyer in your own state for specifics.

    --
    All ideas^H^H^H^H^Hprocesses in this post are Patent Pending. (as well as the process of patenting all postings)
  82. Re:and how many people just cramed the test by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Kinda like yours, except that you likely know even less about the test than he does.

  83. Re:and how many people just cramed the test by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Half of the problem is that Slashdot sucks at making non-hysterical headlines.

    The other half is that statistics is about forcing data to match your goals not extracting results from the data...

  84. parent is racist by pezpunk · · Score: 1

    ick.

    --
    i could live a little longer in this prison
  85. Yes if you have 33 or 34.. you get bumped by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It is well known - if you are on verge of passing the grader will give you couple of marks to pass you. This doesn't mean "tampering" - "oh it is corruption" - "lower castes got discriminated" - "what ever other BS!" ... roll numbers ensure no one knows the caste, color, creeed, gender etc.!

    The kiddie scripter didn't understand the grading systems and barely understands statistics!

    1. Re:Yes if you have 33 or 34.. you get bumped by kbx911 · · Score: 0

      i think in College i got bumped to exactly 360/600 i.e. 60% to sympathetically let me get 1st class grade instead of 2nd class, not that it matters much either way

  86. Re:not even hacking just URL typing with fixed ID by currently_awake · · Score: 1

    If this had happened in the usa i would assume some juniior intern from india had set up the system. However as it is from India i would think they use their best and brightest for everything (as opposed to exporting them).

  87. So by your logic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Kiss me, I'm Irish" is also considered racist too.

  88. I reached a different conclusion by TheSpoom · · Score: 2

    My conclusion was that they rounded the grades to certain points. I'm not sure where he got the inference of malice or tampering, other than bumping failing grades up, which isn't exactly malicious (though probably unfair).

    Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by stupidity... or policy.

    Also, I give this guy a couple of days, a week max, before he's in jail for quite a while.

    --
    It's better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.
    - E. Debs
    1. Re:I reached a different conclusion by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      There had been suspicions of "grace points" for some time. But it was never officially confirmed or denied. With the grace points you'd expect that many of those scoring 33 or 34 would be bumped up to a passing of 35. And indeed that is seen. However much more is seen than just this. This is happening across the whole range from 35 through 95 or so. Now certainly the education system could just come out and say "yup, we change the grades on your behalf, with 33 different types of grace points we give out." But they won't, they know it would be politically disasterous. It may not be technically "tampering" since this is being done by the scoring body itself, but it's certainly going to be a huge scandal.

    2. Re:I reached a different conclusion by cbhacking · · Score: 1

      How is rounding grades to specific points (as opposed to a general curve, which is decidedly not present) anything other than tampering?

      69 is a serious local maximum, but 67, 68, 70, and 71 are not given out at all. Similar for 83, and the values on either side of it.
      There isn't a single result in the range of 55, 56, 57.
      80 is a local minimum, among non-zero scores; 78 is a local maximum (79 got zero results). That makes no sense at all.

      You can basically fit several lines to the peaks of the data:
      35, 38, 40, 42 are all much higher than the tail of such a distribution should be. The shape of the actual tail is visible from 25-30 and 16-20.
      50, 54, 58, 60, 66, 69, 78, 88 are all local maxima, and are mostly on a straight line (that just shouldn't happen, not over such a large range, and not including the global maximum).
      83 is lower than it should be if the missing numbers on either side were assigned to it.
      If you assume all the even scores from 88 to 94 were twice as high as they should be because the preceding number was added, then it almost aligns with the curve shown from 95-100. However, why then is 86 so much lower, and 84 missing entirely? That's an unlikely sharpness to a curve.

      --
      There's no place I could be, since I've found Serenity...
  89. Re:and how many people just cramed the test by astrodoom · · Score: 1

    What do you mean by integer rounded? His graphs are of score on the x and # of that score on the y. Both his axes are integer values. Do you mean it's possible the test had fractional scores and he (or the scorers) rounded them in the analysis? Otherwise I don't understand your point.

  90. Yes, speaking the truth is racist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I guess he strikes where he hurts you the most hahahaha

    Time to ban political correctness and bring back logical reasoning.

  91. Re:and how many people just cramed the test by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    For example there are 6 questions on a test, each would be worth 16.66%, but the total grade must be integer rounded to something like 67%. Some integers will not be available and some maybe arbitrarily rounded up or down.

  92. Re:E-systems WILL be manipulated if motivation exi by currently_awake · · Score: 1

    computer voting IS inherently less secure than paper voting. Paper can have watermarks, fingerprints, ink chemical analysis- it is usually possible to tell a fake ballot from a real one. An electronic ballot, you just can't tell. 2- it takes a lot of people to stuff thousands of ballot boxes with paper, and the more people who know what you're doing the more chance someone will talk. It only takes 1 programmer or cracker and your e-voting system is compromised. 3- paper ballots don't change who you voted for when you put them in the ballot box. If you load your exploit code into ram on the voting computer then a single power cycle and it's gone. 4- you can see how paper voting works, and all the voters can understand the process. With e-voting the majority of the voters have no choice but to trust you. The reason democracy is more stable than other governments is because the people trust the system not to cheat them. They can get bad things changed without a revolution. If you take away that trust then the people will revolt, and e-voting isn't provably trustworthy.

  93. Re:not even hacking just URL typing with fixed ID by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

  94. Re:and how many people just cramed the test by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Please provide scientific/mathematical proof of your statement.

  95. Re:E-systems WILL be manipulated if motivation exi by minstrelmike · · Score: 1

    5. I want a recount. With paper, that is possible.

  96. Re:and how many people just cramed the test by reve_etrange · · Score: 2

    Poisson distributions are found over non-time intervals as well.

    --
    .: Semper Absurda :.
  97. Re:not even hacking just URL typing with fixed ID by Will.Woodhull · · Score: 4, Interesting

    If this had happened in the usa

    Something very similar to this did happen in the USA, from some time in the 1980s until around 1995. It involved a government forestry agency, and the database they had to track logging, replanting, spraying, road building, and other commercial forest management activities.

    I became involved about 1993 when I was hired by an eco-activist group who had used FOIA to obtain a digital copy of a detail report of the entire forestry database for the region. My task was to develop one-off perl scripts to extract the data from the report format and build a Paradox database that could be queried to see if the forestry records indicated any violations of the laws to protect spotted owl habitat. This was straightforward work: as I recall the hardest part was staying awake when doing the validation cross-checking. (I also dislike reconciling my checking account with the bank statement.)

    But what I discovered was that the forestry database was full of crap. You cannot harvest a 20 year old stand of timber from a parcel that had been clear cut just three years earlier; you cannot harvest anything from a parcel before the access road to it is completed. A big portion of the database lacked self-consistency. Years later, I learned that the consultant that the forestry agency had hired to develop and maintain the database had been convicted of fraud, and that there had been a shake-up in the management of that agency. (Since the database records were crap, the eco-activists chose not use it in their spotted owl fight. Instead a new, and appropriate, attack on the managerial competency of the forestry agency was launched, I believe by persuading one of the State Representatives to demand an investigation.)

    I do not think that computer fraud on this scale is likely to happen in the USA now, because I think every manager of any kind of any large government database is well aware that he needs to cover his ass by having his stuff validated by Information Management. However the news indicates this kind of fraud is happening in some small towns, and some of the smaller departments of cities-- places where there is still no easy access to information management professionals, where decisions involving database management have to be made by persons without a background in the subject.

    --
    Will
  98. Re:and how many people just cramed the test by afidel · · Score: 2

    He's at Cornell University, that doesn't discount the possibility of jail time but it does pretty much eliminate the rendition aspect (he didn't piss of the US government afterall).

    --
    There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
  99. double woosh! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    No, the writer of the article is a 20 year old Cornell university student. Said so, right in the article. Heck is even says in the summary he's an Indian college student. Also, whoosh, the guy you replied to was talking about the coding of the website that was scraped, not the coding the writer of the article did.

  100. Re:and how many people just cramed the test by reve_etrange · · Score: 1

    India culture is not a western culture

    Kid lives in Ithaca, NY.

    By the way, it's an absurd (and easily falsified) contention that there are no political prisoners or retributive law enforcement actions in Western countries.

    --
    .: Semper Absurda :.
  101. hacking in the eyes of the law but not show much a by Joe_Dragon · · Score: 1

    hacking in the eyes of the law but not show much in a tech way.

  102. No indication of 'tampering' by cnaumann · · Score: 1

    It is very clear that Debragh is not looking at 'raw' test scores. It is clear that some scaling has bene applied. the raw test scores might have been integers between 0 and 60. Each of these scores is 'mapped' to a new scale that goes up to 100. The mapping is not linear.It may be that a 60 maps to a 100, a 59 maps to a 99, a 58 maps to a 98, and a 57 maps to a 96. That would produce the gaps. the raw test scores would not produce a bell curve either. If it a a multiple choice test, the low end will be skewed by random guessing. It is also possible that differnet school district encourage different groups of students to take certain tests. Very often, raw scores are mapped to a bell curve, raw test scores sledom look anythnig like a bell curve. Think about that. If you are takng the ACT, the differencve between a 36 and a 35 might be missing a single question. However, the difference between a 21 and a 20 might be missing 2 or 3 questiosn.

    Uless you can some that they scaling was applied unfairly, that some student's tests scores were adjusteed up and other were not, there is really no indication that there was any wrong doing.

  103. Re:not even hacking just URL typing with fixed ID by reve_etrange · · Score: 1

    It should scare you because Terms of Service violations are now Federal crimes. According to the government's reasoning, you could be prosecuted for using a fake name on Google+.

    Screen Scraping Is Not A Crime!

    --
    .: Semper Absurda :.
  104. corruption in india by D1G1T · · Score: 1

    I think if you ask most people in India what is the biggest thing holding them back as a nation, they will answer, "corruption." Bribes and kick-backs are expected for everyday transactions, and many things like diplomas are simply for sale. I've talked to some very bright, educated, hard working young Indians who are really angry about the situation because they end up competing with lazy rich kids who's parents just bought them their diplomas. It removes the incentive to work hard in school.

  105. Re:not even hacking just URL typing with fixed ID by reve_etrange · · Score: 1

    And that's why "the law" ought to get educated about how computers actually work.

    --
    .: Semper Absurda :.
  106. Re:and how many people just cramed the test by quarterbuck · · Score: 1

    Not necessarily. The questions do not all have 1 point for correct answer. The exam is not multiple choice, it is written. It is difficult for anybody to write answers to a 100 questions in an exam (It is 2 -2.5 hours http://www.cisce.org/notice_doc/55Time-Table-ICSE-2013-Examination.pdf) . So there is mostly only about 20 questions in the exam. This means that there are only a limited number of possible scores you can get in the exam. It is a bit like summing up tennis scores - you will only get multiples of 5 for totals because the scores are all 0,15,30 and 40.
    If you are still not convinced, generate random integers from 1-20 in excel.Multiply them by 5 and plot it. You will notice that you have a distribution from 0 - 100, but it is very jagged.
    Then there is the fact that the same examiner reads the entire paper, rather than this being split up question-wise. By the time an examiner gets to the end of a paper, the examiner is biased towards thinking the student is good or bad ( Dan Ariely explains it is detail http://danariely.com/tag/the-honest-truth-about-dishonesty/) , so it biases all his scoring for later questions. They are also likely to round up some scores which are border line passes.

    --
    http://slashdot.org/submission/1062723/Cheap-mobile-data-plan?art_pos=2
  107. Re:and how many people just cramed the test by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    All numbers from 94 to 100 are attainable and have been attained.

    These scores are what universities use for admissions. Universities care far more about the difference between the top 1%, 2%, and 3% than the difference between the 78%,79%, and 80%.

    The distribution has obviously been normalized from a different scale...the aliasing artifacts are a dead giveaway, but it also appears that they increased the sampling resolution for the top 5%. This is perfectly acceptable, and is not evidence of tampering.

  108. Re:and how many people just cramed the test by Bearhouse · · Score: 3, Informative

    Correct; typical example could come from counting, then plotting, discrete data. Number of children in a family, doors on a car...
    Note that whilst you might expect a normal distribution, with events (exam results) distributed evenly but randomly about the mean, the fact the the guy found something that certainly looks non-normal, (he did not do normality tests, but having looked at his results, I don't think he needed to), does not itself prove that the results were altered.

    Imagine a 'perfect' exam, where the expected (average) result for the student population was 50 out of 100, or 50%
    Now imagine an (equally unlikely) 'perfect' candidate population.
    If you plotted the exam results, you could expect the population to be centered on a mean result of 50, with half the scores higher, half lower.
    If you had a (really getting unlikely now) 'perfect' education system, there would be a low standard deviation in your data, let's say 2%
    If the results could be modelled with the Gauss curve, then 99.73% of your distribution would be at +/- 3 sigma (standard deviations) from the mean.
    So lowest expected score of 50-2*3=46, with highest of 56.

    Of course, candidate abilities could be much more varied than this, so sigma could be anything...5%, 10%

    Anyway, getting to the point, if the mean of a what you *might* be expecting to be a Gauss / Normal curve is shifted sufficiently towards a 'hard' limit, (in our example, you cannot score less than 0%, or more than 100%, so both are 'hard' limits, or 'boundaries'), then the data (example results) do tend naturally to 'pile up' against the limit. (Think of a snow plough pushing snow aganist a wall - it's go nowhere to go, except up).

    Thus you get a non-normal distribution, (typically better modelled with a lognormal or Weibull curve, not Poisson).

    But WHAT can cause the mean to shift? For this example:
    - Either the exam is "too easy", or
    - The students are all very good (yeah, same thing,really), or
    - The marking system is biased.
    I'll leave you to draw your own conclusions on that one, but I've personally found that in India, (as in other places, including the USA), a little cash can go a long way...

    But that was not the most compelling evidence of bias; that would be the very strange 'missing' data points, (especially close to critical scores such as the 35 pass. /endoldstatsbore

  109. Re:and how many people just cramed the test by Capt.Albatross · · Score: 1

    Unless it's not grade data but raw data. Everyone is ASSUMING it's final calculated scores.

    From the description of how the data were obtained, you can see that it is the data from which the Exam Results web page delivers the final calculated scores.

  110. Re:not even hacking just URL typing with fixed ID by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The Internet is designed to be open by default. It's not like a house because most people wouldn't want you walking into their house without their explicit permission. Websites are different, and if you make it trivially easy to access a certain web page that you didn't want people to access, that's your problem.

  111. No odd results by artfulshrapnel · · Score: 1

    Does anyone else notice that odd numbers seem to be the ones skipped to create that jagged graph? Perhaps below a certain threshold (95 by appearances) they simply round up to the nearest even number for some reason? I'd be interested to see those charts re-rendered for even numbers only.

    The notes about how skewed some of the bell curves are actually raises more questions about the test than the grading to me. A perfectly even bell curve seems like it would only appear if the test was full of equally difficult questions worth the same number of points. If instead there are a large number of easy, valuable questions and a small number of very difficult low-value questions I'd expect to see a charts like these: ones that rise towards that "easy" point total, and then drop off sharply at the range earned for those last few very hard questions.

    Also as many people have said: I'm not surprised to see a "grace" gap just below the failure mark; it seems like the kind of thing most colleges would do to avoid debates about grades and ensure they don't fail someone based on a single unlucky error or math mistake. The way they're doing it, anyone who fails fails by a LOT, making debate unlikely.

  112. Re: and how many people just cramed the test by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In India Less than full credit can be given. A 2 point question might only receive .5 credit. There are many scores possible. Also, each subject has a different format for the number of points. Some have more 2 point answers for example.

  113. 1. top scores 2. security breaking by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    1. Why were the top scores normal? (possibly not altered?)

    Because these people stand out.

    In such a competitive system of exams the highest scorers are publicly praised.
    "- Who got the best scores in our school?"
    "- She was the best in our city."
    Local tv station will have an interview with the best scorers in the county/municipality.
    National tv stations will make a reportage with the best students, in the whole country.
    So...
    You can not have a student that would normally score 75, having scored 94.
    Then everyone in his school would go..."Are you kidding me?"
    People would see that there is foul play there...

    2 Security breaking

    There was no security breaking, because there was no security.

    You put stuff on the internet so as to make them public... not hide them.

    If he broke the law, then everyone who uses wget is also braking the law.
    Then Google, Yahoo and everyone who uses a web crawler would be braking the law.

  114. Re: and how many people just cramed the test by quarterbuck · · Score: 1

    Here is an exam http://www.respaper.com/icse/410/4402-pdf.html .It is a combination of questions with 3 points and questions with 4.
    Also there is no half points in the exam, if you look at the chart attached to the slashdot article, no one got a half point.

    --
    http://slashdot.org/submission/1062723/Cheap-mobile-data-plan?art_pos=2
  115. This may help explain... by roc97007 · · Score: 1

    ...the quality of our outsourced IT. Here I was assuming that they were just pulling food vendors off the street. (I mean really... a Linux admin who doesn't know "top"?) Now I wonder if they really did due diligence, but the applicants' grades were inflated. (By a lot, apparently.)

    --
    Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
    1. Re:This may help explain... by KZigurs · · Score: 1

      Well, maybe the admin in question got used to querying the /proc directly doing the maths in his head and simply never felt the need to look for the easy opt-out which doesn't really give all that much useful information in the first place? ;)

  116. Re:not even hacking just URL typing with fixed ID by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Look at MERS and the mortgage industry in the US. It was illegal in most States and it was still used, despite it's inaccuracy.

  117. Here is problem pattern by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Marks Questions
      1 A trivial problem.
      2 2 Easy problems A1-A2.
    12 6 Easy problems B1-B6.
    18 6 Easy problems C1-C6.
    18 6 Tough problems D1-D6.
    42 7 Tough problems E1-E7.
      7 The toughest. problem.

  118. Re:not even hacking just URL typing with fixed ID by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Now this doesn't even make sense. Why in the world should the law change on this point?
    You want every security bug or configuration error to grant the legal right to access data?

  119. alternate explanations by slew · · Score: 1

    his numbers DO show substantial evidence that people just below passing are being bumped up to passing grades. although again it's hard to know for sure without knowing how the exam is weighted.

    Testing is just like any other form of measurement. There are inherent uncertainties in every measurement scheme so you need to account for them.

    I don't think many folks understand the CBSE marking scheme (I sure don't), but as I understand the basics, on some test sections (like math) there are a certain number of "1" point questions, a certain number of "4" point questions and a certain number of "6" point questions. People that score near the top of the range might miss a random smattering of "1" point questions, but for the "6" point questions, you apparently have a "choice" of answering a few different questions (presumably you would pick the one that you have the most confidence in) so you probably get them or not. The disparate points/question and the fact that you get to pick some questions might be able to explain the gaps in certain scores (to get a lower score, you likely need to miss some "6" point questions providing more quantization than missing a "1" point question). It seems to me quite likely that certain scores are highly unlikely or even unatainable.

    OR, perhaps the during test reporting, the powers that be decide to give everyone the benefit of the doubt by rounding them up so that nobody misses an arbitrary cut-off by just 1 or 2 points... In the USA, you might even call this type of measure a defensive manuver (to avoid the inevitable numerous lawsuits from angry parents)...

    Hard to say w/o knowing more details about the the specifics (for those interested you can find out yourself about the strange scoring system here on the CBSE website http://cbse.gov.in/welcome.htm)

  120. Re:and how many people just cramed the test by cbhacking · · Score: 1

    It's the scores that were being posted for students. He only found the way to leak everybody's scores because he was trying to get a friend's scores early, but was unable to do so. The data he got is the data that became available when the final scores were posted.

    --
    There's no place I could be, since I've found Serenity...
  121. The Author is an Idiot by raehl · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Possibilities:

    - There is a national cheating conspiracy ...or....

    - The test score is not based on assigning a value to each question and adding up those values.

    For example, the test could simply be scored as such:

    All answers correct: Score 100
    Miss one question: Score 99
    Miss two questions: 98
    Three questions: 97
    Four: 96
    Five: 94
    Six: 92
    etc etc
    Miss 20 questions: 35
    Miss 21 questions: 31
    etc etc.

    The author makes the ASSUMPTION that the score of the test must be the sum of the value of the questions answered correctly. There is no basis for that assumption. The fact that certain values are not present, and the values 34, 33 and 32 are not present, are likely by design (i.e. don't make people feel like they just missed passing.)

    All the author has shown is that India is apparently doing a very poor job teaching critical thinking skills (as evidenced by the author's inability to exercise critical thinking skills.)

    1. Re:The Author is an Idiot by anushr · · Score: 1

      Umm... actually, it looks to me like you're the idiot for assuming that the author doesn't know how HIS OWN COUNTRY'S examinations are scored. Do a basic search and get a sample ICSE exam paper: http://www.respaper.com/icse/773/8564-pdf.html

      As you can plainly see, the questions are scored with 3, 4 or 6 points/marks. The author actually does mention 3 and 4 marks as examples when making his case, so clearly he knows what he's talking about.

  122. Say what? by raehl · · Score: 1

    there's an entire paragraph devoted to how it can't be that the questions had such a scoring system which made certain numbers unattainable.

    And that entire paragraph is wrong.

    Example: Any scoring system where the final test score earned is NOT the sum of point values for each question.

  123. Re: and how many people just cramed the test by raehl · · Score: 1

    Did you notice that the exam you linked has a 110 points worth of questions?

    Obviously the test score earned is not merely the sum of the value of the questions answered correctly.

  124. Honest mapping explains two of the three artifacts by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 1

    [] his observations might have been the result of standardizing the test scores... IE if you have a test that only scores 50 max and you scale it to 100 obviously you aren't going to have many odd numbers in the results.

    He points out that in some of the tests all scores of 94-100 inclusive were obtained, so it's not a case of leaving out odds or a regularly-spaced set of numbers based on a simple scaling up/down.

    If you have a maximum score of 53 you might chose a mapping function like this:
        (rawscore 48) ? (rawscore * 2) : (rawscore + 47). That gives you a non-linear mapping with the slope cut in half for a small interval on the right side. The "can get steps of one and two" on the top mean nothing about what you can get below the knee when the mapping is non-linear.

    Similar mappings can end up with both ends smooth and only the middle spiky.

    Why do that? So you only get ONE discontinuity in the data, near the top, rather than one point of roundoff noising up the spacing and comparisons between students all through it.

    A skewed distribution is hardly surprising, especially when the bulk of the measurements are near one end of a finite numbering system. Further, the non-linear mapping above would make the downslope on the right hand side shallower by a 2:1 ratio, exactly what you see. A distribution skewed toward the high end also argues for using a mapping like the one above - to spread out the pile of high-scoring students and make differences in score less divergent from differences in percentile rank.

    The deficits just below passing scores and the spikes at them, however, are just bogus. The only "mapping" that can reasonably explain them is the "courtesy points" shoveling of just-failing students into just-passing. However, this can be explained as mercy being built into the mapping. (It can also be explained as protecting just-passing students from being unfairly pushed into the just-failing region due to a center-spreading, hump-flattening, non-linear mapping applied as a convenience for admissions officers.) The total absence of scores just below the fail point says it's not favoritism or individual corruption, but a systematic benefit given to all just-failing students.

    --
    Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
  125. Re:not even hacking just URL typing with fixed ID by turbidostato · · Score: 1

    "Now this doesn't even make sense."

    Yes, it does. When you in real world put a door in a mall, with a big "WELCOME" sign at the top, then you can't argue you didn't allow in some explicit person unless you explicitly tell him he's not welcome.

    Well, that's exactly what a website is in Internet world: you just can't say that I'm not allowed to enter http://www.example.com/data?tell=me&your=secrets post-facto, because it's a very valid entry point to an explicitly public place.

    Law-makers should understand this. Well, law-makers do in fact know this. And they don't give a damn.

  126. Re:not even hacking just URL typing with fixed ID by turbidostato · · Score: 1

    "It's possible that for a given State or Federal law that the owner's intent is what's important, not their implementation. And the intent of the defendant is also a factor."

    You told it. It's a factor. Due diligence is a factor too. Failing to protect something that it's easily writable in any browser pointing to an already known for both sides to be a public place shouldn't have to be consider due diligence in any sensible legal system.

  127. Re:not even hacking just URL typing with fixed ID by brantondaveperson · · Score: 1

    See it's not really like that though.

    All security can be broken; A door can be bashed in, or even left unlocked by accident. In both the cases the crime of entering an area for which you are not authorised is the same. Except that if you bash in the door they'll probably get you for criminal damage too.

    The idea that as soon as you're talking about the internet, anything you can do should be legal, is a bit strange. If faced with a login screen, behind which javascript implements completely inadequate security, do you think it should be any more legal to break that security just because it was weak? Stealing money that's sitting poking out of someone's bag while they're not looking is still stealing, even though the 'security' was all but non-existent.

  128. Re:not even hacking just URL typing with fixed ID by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Actually the usual response is to put you in jail, then accuse you of being a terrorist/hacker/anarchist/etc.

  129. Re:not even hacking just URL typing with fixed ID by Shompol · · Score: 1

    ...recorded the student ids and test scores as graffiti on all the park benches in Central Park.

    I thought of a better analogy:

    You send the board a letter with a request to get grades, the agency server sends back a letter containing grades. He just sent letters on behalf of every graduating student in India, and the agency sent replies, completely voluntarily and without bothering to check his identity.

    I think if this can be explained in a court, modifying URL will no longer be treated as any sort of illegal criminal act.

  130. Re:not even hacking just URL typing with fixed ID by turbidostato · · Score: 1

    "The idea that as soon as you're talking about the internet, anything you can do should be legal, is a bit strange."

    Did I say that "anything I can do [on Internet] should be legal"? No, did I?

    "If faced with a login screen, behind which javascript implements completely inadequate security..."

    For a starter, since you talk about trespassing, that javascript code is in *my* premises, downloaded to *my* PC and sent to *my* browser, and then, only *after* I politely asked to the server to send me what it sees fit.

    Now again, if I politely salute a server with http://www.example.com/data?tell=me&your=secrets why should I be responsible for what the server, not me, decided to send back to me? Do you really consider burglary if I politely ask you to give me a grand and then you give me a grand?

    And finally, what do you think that funny "www" in the begining means? It means "World Wide [Web]". So you put something reachable by the world at wide, explicitly meant to be reached by the world at wide and still you think no level of due diligence should be requested before throwing criminal charges to other people?

    "Stealing money that's sitting poking out of someone's bag while they're not looking is still stealing"

    I see you don't understand... there's no way I can unadvertidly poke something out of a web server: I need to *request* the server, and the server then answer my request the way it sees fit.

  131. In India! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Corruption in India, who would have thunk!
    http://cpi.transparency.org/cpi2012/results/#myAnchor1

  132. not a hacker.. by Barryke · · Score: 1

    To bad even the /. summary calls him a hacker..

    --
    Hivemind harvest in progress..
  133. Indians are morally corrupt by birth -Caste system by NewYork · · Score: 1

    Indians are morally corrupt by birth (Caste system) for the past 3000 years.

    Google "Companies ruined or almost ruined by forward caste"
    Google "90% of corrupt money is with forward caste people".

  134. Re:not even hacking just URL typing with fixed ID by wolfemi1 · · Score: 1

    As I have no mod points to give, I'll just say THANK YOU for the fascinating post!

  135. Anyone surprised? by mgcarley · · Score: 1

    I'm not.

    All too often I get candidates who just don't know anything despite having the qualifications - at least on paper - yet can't answer the basic questions. It's got to the point where I just ban certain (types of) schools from even reaching the interview stage.

    --
    Founder & COO, Hayai India (hayai.in) / USA (hayaibroadband.com) // t: @mgcarley
  136. Rampant cheating in exam halls by kbx911 · · Score: 0

    In my 12th (that's high school final exam for US folks) ISC exam there was so much cheating in exam halls, some people had gotten mini-xeroxed books, i myself shamelessly copied the entire biology and chemistry paper from the dude sitting towards my left (2 feet away), during the last 15 minutes of paper collection the copying goes mass and EVERYONE starts comparing and correcting and filling the missing answers by asking all those around who can answer. This is what happens at a "good" school. I can't even imagine what happens in the rural hinterlands of Bihar where students stick the question paper on their desk with a knife. Yes Indians are very corrupt. From childhood itself we build up a tolerance for corruption. I hate it, but maybe it will change. Even in Counterstrike servers there is always a hacker/waller in every public server. Yesterday i was thinking what if there was a Global Political Party of below 40 anarchists, maybe called the Anonymous Party. They'd have Blackwater security top-grade military guard and secure funding through global crowfunding on Kickstarter. They would remain anonymous all the way till the day they get elected and have to go sit in the official chair. They make sweeping changes whereever they come in power. More countries wake up to this alternative, everyone wants to somehow change the government in their country be it India, or USA or China or whichever country. This Global Political Party, known in every country, can do that. You gotta beat them at their own game of votes.

  137. A point of view by ananthap · · Score: 1

    (1) Considering that for most students this is an important selection test, for which many students prepare single mindedly for at least an year,I wasn't surprised when the marks fall into a bi-modal pattern. I mean where people are programmed to study the same subjects in these mass teaching shops, you would expect this type of pattern.

    This bears out the experience I had with a school in South India about 14 years back (when my son was a 12th grader and I helped his school analyses the results). Most marks were in the 90% bracket and a few in the 50% bracket (just pass). The 90% people are mostly well settled engineers, bankers, chartered accountants etc.

    (2) Secondly, ICSE ties up with most major newspapers and news sites to publish/link to a published copy of the web pages. CISCSE doesn't give direct access to their database and Mr. Debarghya Das (the hacker) has apparently looked at one such web site. This was in the electronic news in India yesterday.So while CICSE may claim that nothing really was hacked, they have been casual and careless in allowing easy access to everyone's marks.

    PS: I am from India.

    OK

  138. Re:not even hacking just URL typing with fixed ID by OdinOdin_ · · Score: 1

    "Judge, I merely clicked into the address bar to enter a search term like I always do, but this time it changed just one 'Query String' parameter value to the term I type in, and presto. Sorry Judge I didn't realize it was possible to hack websites while performing a web search, next time I shall turn on safe searching,"

  139. Sorry.... by raehl · · Score: 1

    Just because the questions are assigned those values doesn't mean that the final result is the sum of the points. For example, somewhere here someone linked to a test where the total possible points was 110. So it's pretty obvious that final test score is NOT just the sum of the points earned on the questions, since no one gets a score higher than 100.