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The Amish Are Getting Fracked
An anonymous reader writes "Old school meets business school. From the New Republic: 'The Amish interpretation of the Christian bible prohibits the use of the courts: Except in rare circumstances, the Amish do not sue. This has created a unique problem in the region. Home to the largest Amish community in the world, Eastern Ohio sits squarely on top of the Utica and Marcellus Shale formations, which contain billions in oil and gas recoverable through advances in hydraulic fracturing technology, or fracking ... When it comes to the oil and gas industry, this means that any agreement an Amish farmer makes with a company is, for the farmer, practically unenforceable. A rare case in which the plaintiffs were Amish suggests that Ohio's oil and gas companies know this and have been willing to take advantage.'"
I know who I'd bet on every time.
Except they have no ethics or morality. Or shame.
Can't they just give someone else the authority to sue on their behalf? There must be a loophole somewhere in the Bible...
I'm pretty sure with billions involved, the Amish will think of something. After all, somehow they got themselves hooked into that electric Amish heater infomercial. I mean, that's all kinds of amish-wrong.
They just frak with only their spouse.
There are actually several different "sects" of Amish, all with differing interpretations. Saying that they don't make use of the courts is incorrect. Some don't, but for most the prohibition is in filing lawsuits for personal gain.
In any event, it's really not something anybody should be concerned with. The Amish have the right to take advantage of the courts, and the right to choose not to use them. If their belief system says don't use the courts, well that's too bad but it's a burden they've placed on themselves.
would they need money from the oil companies to cover their bills
not like they live beyond their means
Ohhh, you gonna paint that barn tonight
Ohhh, down beside da lantern light
Ohhh, you gonna finish all your chores
Black bonnet girls you make the Amish world go round
Yah
I was just an Amish boy
Full of purity und joy
Knew damn well that I was holier than thee
Left alone with Cousin Greta
What a naughty baby sitta
Heathen woman, you made a Mennonite out of me
Yah Yah
I know girls who never curse
Chicks who know their bible verse
Every one of them wore a dress down to da floor
Though their chastity and charm
Made them quite pleasant on da farm
There ain't nothing like a good old Amish whore
Ohhh, you gonna paint that barn tonight
Ohhh, down beside da lantern light
Ohhh, you gonna finish all your chores
Black bonnet girls you make the Amish world go round
Yah
Black bonnet girls you make the Amish world go round
Hey Carl
Yah Graeber
What's the difference between Greta and my buggy.
I don't know Graber what is the difference
Well, not everybody has been in my buggy.
Ha ha ha ha
Yah listen now
I've been on my knees all day
All I do is sit and pray
Thought I saw the Lord but I can't really tell
But I knew from da beginning
With this lust and all this sinning
Black bonnet girls and me will surely burn in hell
Yah dig this
Ohhh, you gonna paint that barn tonight
Ohhh, down beside da lantern light
Ohhh, you gonna finish all your chores
Black bonnet girls you make the Amish world go round
Yah
Black bonnet girls you make the Amish world go round
Get on your buggies and ride
Black bonnet girls
Man that Greta's built like a brick outhouse
Black bonnet girls
As long as I've got a pew, she's got a place to sit
Black bonnet girls
Yah, she could churn my butter anytime
Black bonnet girls
Hey Greta, show us your ankles
Ooooh
Who was surprised by this? Other than the Amish.
I wonder if the Amish will use the courts when their water well is unusable or a major spill occurs. Sure that is not a normal thing, but when you are already ripping them off on the lease you might as well do a shitty job casing the well too.
If they had religious objections to the police, and thus refused to use them, would we start seeing stories that they are being robbed and the robbers are getting away?
Of course if they don't use the courts, they don't get the benefit of the courts. If they refuse anything based on religious grounds, they're not going to get it. That's what "refuse" means. If they refuse the process of getting justice, they're not going to get justice, just like if they refuse internet service, they don't get internet service.
What next, articles about the cruel dilemma of Christian Scientists who are dying of disease because their religion discourages them from seeing doctors?
They need binding arbitration.
Problem Solved!
is not my problem or concern.
Yes, their particular cult is marketed to appear quaint, but it's still just another Superstition of the Desert and I laugh at the misfortunes of people who choose to believe in such insanity.
"This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
If you believe for one minute the Amish had anything to do with an electric fireplace made in China by children/prisoners, I have some ocean front property in Eastern Ohio that might interest you...
In all seriousness, anyone who wants to learn about Amish life should check out "Amish - A Secret Life" by the BBC. Although it could be argued the subjects are no longer "true" (you'll have to watch to understand why) the documentary is probably the closest thing to Amish life anyone reading Slashdot will see. Check it out when you have an hour to spare: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KaBnmSyNxHE
Let's see, they are religious but not muslim so they are contemptible to you.
Spoken like a true liberal.
That ought to learn the oil & gas companies a lesson!
Can't they sue the pants off of these guys and then repent afterwards?
Build a Man a Fire, and He'll Be Warm for a Day. Set a Man on Fire, and He'll Be Warm for the Rest of His Life.
... maybe that's true; but their whole society is designed around living separately from the society they view as damaged. They don't want to take part (and not just for religious reasons). Why should they be forced to participate in a supposedly free country? It's not like they're forcing anything on us... they're just trying to live quietly out of the way.
Imagine if you weren't allowed to use roads because a bus company complained about your driving 3 times. --skunkpussy
Why would the Amish need a court system? They have the Amish Mafia to protect them.
sudo make me a sandwich
It isn't so much the Easter/Christmas Christians. I mean when you have someone that only has a passing involvement in their religion, it is not at all surprising when they ignore some (or many) of the rules. However you see it in the really orthodox as well. They find what they believe to be loopholes and use them.
Orthodox Jews are some of the best examples:
So Exodus 35:3 says "Do not light a fire in any of your dwellings on the Sabbath day." This relates to Exodus 16:23 which says "This is what the LORD commanded: 'Tomorrow is to be a day of sabbath rest, a holy sabbath to the LORD. So bake what you want to bake and boil what you want to boil. Save whatever is left and keep it until morning.'" Basically the idea is, as far as biblical scholars can tell, that making a fire was a lot of work (try making a fire rubbing sticks together, it sucks) and the Sabbath is a day of rest. So none of that, you make your food on Friday, rest on Saturday. Remember that we are talking the ME/Mediterranean here, so you didn't really need fire for warmth.
However, for whatever reason, the Talmudic interpretation has decided that electricity is fire. I'm not sure why, but that is what the orthodox churches teach. So, you aren't allowed to operate electric devices on Saturday (the Jewish Sabbath), in particular your oven. Well that's pretty damn inconvenient in the modern world... So they find all kinds of "loopholes". You can get ovens that have timers longer than 24 hours. You set them up the day before, and they'll heat up (and down) at the prescribed times. Also while an Orthodox Jew can't go and push the buttons to operate an elevator in their building, it is 100% fine to have a Gentile who does it for you. Or, since elevator operators are a rather unnecessary expense these days, elevators can be (and are) set in to 'Sabbath Mode' where they automatically stop at every floor and open up, and just keep cycling. Takes longer, you have to get on and wait, but you can use it without 'operating' it.
This is real, and it is big. There are plenty of Orthodox Jews that seem to think it is important to obey that part of the bible, but that they can find ticky loopholes and gotchas to get around it and god will be ok with that. I don't claim to understand it, however it is what it is.
On the flip side you'll see some weird stuff like stores that won't let you order on the Sabbath. B&H Photo Video, one of the best camera stores in the US, is like that. They have a big, well designed, online ordering system. However it won't let you order on the Sabbath. You can browse, but if you try to place an order, it won't allow it, you have to wait, it won't queue it into the system. The servers don't get the day off, but they aren't allowed to take orders :).
So you can see how, given things like this, people might assume the Amish would be similar. It is not from dealing with people who are casually religious that you get the idea, but from dealing with those that are deeply religious and seem to care about certain rules, but are 100% fine with going around those rules in tricky ways.
Now lest someone think I'm picking on the Jews here, I just chose the example because it is one you see a fair bit in America. You should see some of the things various orthodox Muslims do that are against the Koran, but they've found a loophole that makes it "ok" in this particular case.
can be refined and fed to all those wild animals they sell on the black market.
work in progress
To pay oil company executives a visit... Those guys make the Italian mafia look like pussies.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
They are extremists/fanatics, even if they are not violent. This is just another form of themselves pushing themselves to the fringes.
-- I ignore anonymous replies to my comments and postings.
A rare case in which the plaintiffs were Amish suggests that Ohio's oil and gas companies know this and have been willing to take advantage.'"
Again, I say, "so, what?"
The Amish don't have to sign the contract. But it damn sure isn't up to the body politic to protect them from themselves.
Don't enter into any more agreements with those frackers.
Which probably frowned upon by the Amish. "Easy money" makes it hard to stay close to God.
When kids are causing a ruckus, they, like everyone else, will tell the kids' parents and let THEM sort the punishment out.
Since these corporations are the child of government edict, and the cours are the government's method of controlling the excesses of their children, this can be seen as merely the same thing.
I think it's the middle-men who are on the whole responsible for these issues. My own parents have been approached by middle-men, sorry not sure what their titles are, who handle contracts between land owners and the companies. They handle the initial contract and pre-payments for anything in the ground, including percentages for any find. The oil and gas companies just buy these contracts from them in the same way freddie mac and fannie may buy home loans. I don't know if this is true for the entire country but its certainly true for where my parents live.
It's funny when people talk about the Amish as if their assured piety somehow comes from genetics or something. The truth is, the Amish have ALWAYS sought for 'loopholes' in their situation - what the Bishops allow for is a different tale altogether.
I could give you LOTS of examples, but here's a oldie AND a goodie. Back in the early 90's, I worked for a Commodore dealer in Lancaster County, PA (BIG Amish and Mennonite community). C= had kind of a non-sequitur deal: Buy an Amiga 500 bundled with a 1080 monitor, get a 'free' VCR - which was kinda silly. The A500 had no color composite out, so actually hooking it up to a VCR required this phallic-looking 6 inch long module (the A520), which of course, was not included.
And yet...
The Old Order Mennonites and even a few of the younger Amish were buying into this deal - big time. We sold more A500s than ever during this time - and the vast majority were going to that community. While the A500 didn't have a true color composite out (C= = STUPID!), the VCR did, and it just so happened that the monitor that came with the bundle did as well. I found out what was going on when I suggested to a conservative-looking young couple that, with an antenna connected to the VCR's tuner, you could actually watch TV on the monitor.
I was taken aback by their shocked and seemingly terrified response, "Oh no! Don't SAY THAT! We don't want to watch TV on it!" What they DID want to watch was VHS video though. Because the Bishops were not up on the latest technology, they could claim that the computer system was the primary purpose of the deal - the VCR would not be mentioned, and they could watch all the tapes they wanted in the secluded privacy of their bedrooms.
Today, if you see an Amish or Mennonite woman on the stoop of their house, cradling something close to their ear, you can bet it's a cell phone. There are cell vendors who specifically cater to the Amish's 'cash only' lifestyle.
Folks, the Amish are as human as any of us. There are pious ones, but many are essentially trapped in a lifestyle out of necessity. Imagine this: With only an 8th grade education, and all of your friends and family belonging to the community, you'd probably stay because you'd fear the total abandonment of the only life you've ever known. But that doesn't mean they don't get rebellious or 'get up to dickens'... ;)
"...Well, there's egg and bacon; egg sausage and bacon; egg and spam; egg bacon and spam; egg bacon sausage and spam..."
Without meeting them, talking with them, and learning about them in person, I think all the armchair hypotheses is poorly formed.
http://www.mennohof.org/
they're different frm you and think differently from you, so that makes it alright for someone to take advantage of them through unethical or illegal behaviour?
like if someone shoves and punches a pacifist, and you think pacifism is silly, so he deserves what he gets?
or you dont vegetarians/vegans, so when someone forces or tricks them into eating meat, its funny, and not your problem?
Wrong is wrong, period.
And if you arent standing up to it, you are part of it.
Whether you sympathize with the victim or not.
your name is appropriate, you're attitude gives you the moral and social aptitude of a slug or similar lower life form.
The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
addendum: youre POV, couchslug, is simply an extension of might makes right, adapt or die. by your logic the american indians got what they deserves, as did the backwards and primitive peopels of africa forcably relocated across the ocean, or the Kurds in Iraq, or the Mongols and Tibetans oppressed by China. Tell me, do you also think girls in clubs and skimpy dresses deserve to be raped too?
Lets blame all the victims and compeltely ignore the person(s) actually doing wrong.
The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
The Amish adapt way better to the real world than financial institutions. It should be our concern.
Nae king! Nae laird! Nae yurrupiean pressedent! We willna be fooled again!
I think the blame still lies with the NG company. The "punching a pacifist" metaphor is a good one. Sure, he chooses not to punch back out of his own free will...but it's wrong that he was assaulted in the first place.
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
*Tadum* *Crash* *Thud*
Thank you, thank you, I'm here all week. Tip your waitor and try the fish.
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
I despise religion because Superstitionist societies impose restrictions on personal freedom which I reject.
I therefore care nothing for the suffering of the religious because they are my enemies. Let their Sky Fairie save them. The only reason the Amish aren't much of a problem is the small size of their cult. Their ROE are still "superstition of the desert".
Pacifists and vegans don't tend to build societies which are restrictive to personal freedom, so I've nothing against them and wish them no harm.
"This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
I don't have much sympathy for repressive religious cultists that reject the common conventions of our society.
This is a larger problem than in Ohio. In Montana there are a small number of Amish and various other Anabaptists (all of which consider judicial action "taboo"), and they're also finding themselves square in the crosshairs. The fact is that Anabaptists tend to choose to live in isolated areas (so they will be left alone), yet those isolated areas are the ones that are increasingly being exploited for natural resources.
It's also important to understand some of the other restrictions that aren't obvious. If an "English" farmer has a railroad that is forced on him/her through his/her property, s/he can request a crossing be built so that the normal operations of the farm (like moving cattle) aren't impeded. But to do that requires the farmer carry insurance to indemnify the railroad for damage. Amish also don't believe in insurance. So that means that there are no crossings on their farms. Driving 5 miles out of your way to get to an existing crossing is a far larger problem if you're on horse than it is if you are driving an internal combustion engine.
I'm afraid I have no sympathy for religious folks, it is their choice to follow their rules but other religions play by different rules.
When it comes to the oil and gas industry, this means that any agreement an Amish farmer makes with a company is, for the farmer, practically unenforceable.
In case anyone was wondering, and would prefer not to have to read TFA to find out what TFS is teasing about, the agreement made was to lease land to an oil company for $10/acre. The potential for a lawsuit comes about because the agent told them this was about the best price they could get - when the actual answer was more like $1000/acre - thereby, the article alleges, committing fraud.
It could've been the Beverly Hillbillies/Witness mash-up I've been longing for, but alas.
systemd is Roko's Basilisk.
This is kind of like when the white man took the land from the Native Americans.
That's because in Acts, the church told the Gentiles to ignore all the rules in the OT except for the sexual ones and eating blood. So it's actually very consistent with the text. Tattoos and mixed fabrics: rules to make Israel appear different. Gays: rule for everyone.
Does the whole thing about not menstruating women (and items they've contacted) being Unclean and untouchable for 7 days count under sexual? (No jokes about eating blood, please)?
They are collections of people. Employees and shareholders, who are...people!
Except for ending slavery, the Nazis, communism, & securing American independence, war has never solved anything.
You don't stop obeying the law, you vote in a new government and get the laws changed.
If you cannot get the laws changed to something you can live with, move somewhere else.
...and having theirs drunk?
I swear to God...I swear to God! That is NOT how you treat your human!
you blame the government for not letting you rob your neighbors too.
Some folks (newer Christians mostly) may have a problem with certain things (eating stuff sacrificed to Idols and such)
So as an older Christian you would not do %matters of faith issues% near/with those newer Christians.
It Would be considered rude to drink near somebody thats partway through 12 steps and trying to kick tobacco but
if you are not then
Lets light up those Cubans and test that Burbon!
Any person using FTFY or editing my postings agrees to a US$50.00 charge
Pacifists and vegans don't tend to build societies which are restrictive to personal freedom, so I've nothing against them and wish them no harm.
So your a bigot then? They do not think like you 'so they must be punished'.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bigot
couchslug is a bad name for you. couchbigot is a better one. I suggest you change it to that.
Some sects will use tractors, but it's under their rules. Such as they can't have rubber tires, and it can't be a modern design. Or they can have machinery run by diesel or propane that's pulled behind a horse.
They're willing to make exceptions when it's necessary for the community to survive.
See Jameson Wetmore's "Amish Technology: Reinforcing Values and Building Community" : http://archive.cspo.org/documents/Wetmore-AmishTechnology-v2.pdf
(I read a pre-print of the paper in 2006 when I was working on a paper for a class on 'Information Behavior' ... see also articles by D.Z.Umble (about telephones) or D.B. Kraybill (eg, 'Plain reservations: Amish and Mennonite views of media
and computers') and Rheingold's 1999 article in Wired)
Build it, and they will come^Hplain.
Ridiculous beliefs come with a real-world disadvantage in life?
Make no mistakes, those companies are evil and we need stricter environmental controls. But if people voluntarily choose to fuck themselves over by following a stupid belief system, that's their fault. The only sympathy I have is for the children that get murdered by their fundamentalist parents via "faith-healing".
so how is making a personal choice to not eat meat or live a vegan lifestype any different than making a personal choice to live or be Amish?
no one is forcing them to do it.
you're not helping yourself.
you're an ignorant bigot, below even the slugs you name yourself for.
begone maggot.
The guy who said the election was rigged won the presidency with the second-most votes.
It does not matter if they are a cult or neo-nazi. They have a right to not be fracked by the powerful and the protection of those rights applies to us all. We shouldn't have to fight to keep our own rights either but we MUST do our part to protect the rights of others so they do not have to go it alone.
The ideals that make the system work are dead. Mammon is the dominant religion and it's values trump all the old ideals. All hail the book of Rand!
Democracy Now! - uncensored, anti-establishment news
The Amish don't buy much petroleum....probably not even much plastic.
I guess that didn't help them, you--oh here it comes, people like you don't deserve politeness anyway--stupid, dumb mother fucker.
Not everyone is as privileged as you are. Not everyone can just move to another neighborhood, or country, just because they don't like the current one.
You're not thinking properly. When you disagree with the government you stop voting for them.
Now consider the following:
A) People that disagree with a large corporation will do a good job not paying for any of its numerous products and services on a day to day basis.
vs
B) People that disagree with their leaders will do a good job not voting for them every few years.
Which is harder? If you think people aren't doing a good job in B, why do you think they'd be better at A? If they're doing a good job in B, then there's no problem right? ;).
If their belief system says don't use the courts, well that's too bad but it's a burden they've placed on themselves.
That's the kind of mindset that says it's okay to allow domestic abuse if the victim keeps going back to the person who hits them. Some thing are just *wrong* on a semi-objective level, and that's why we have public prosecutors to uphold the notion that society itself is injured by the act regardless of what the direct victim has to say.
People committing fraud and exploiting people just because they won't fight back is no different from a bigger kid punching a smaller kid because the smaller kid is timid or too weak to defend himself. It's disgusting, and it needs to be stopped.
(Wow: The captcha is "sicken." Just perfect for your post.)
This begs a question or two:
It is trying to find loopholes, no matter how you want to justify it. If you like to do that, it if fine, but that is what you are doing. You are trying to obey the letter, not the spirit. Also it is choosing to interpret things in a certain, and not correct, fashion.
You aren't creating or destroying a circuit when you turn a light on or off. A circuit exists independent of current flowing through it. You are just changing its configuration. And for that matter if you believe in the "creating" and "destroying" of an electronic circuit, well guess what? Your oven does that when its timer turn on and of, your fridge does that when its compressor cycles. As I said in no case is it actually creating or destroying anything, but it is no different if you operate a switch or if an automated system does.
As for the indirect asking, you are doing nothing of the sort. Electronics are a deterministic system. When you tell the timer to turn on, you are doing so explicitly. You are giving it a command to activate the device at a specific time, a command it is required to follow in detail if it is functioning properly.
As I said: Your sect has chosen to interpret Talmudic rules in a certain fashion, and chosen to interpret electricity in a certain fashion that says you shouldn't turn devices on or off. I think any scientist would say you are wrong in your interpretation, but it is yours and you may believe what you wish. However you find that inconvenient, so you then try to find technical loopholes around the law you've created.
You aren't going to convince anyone as to the logic of your position because it is not logical, even internally. Now that's fine. You are free to believe what you wish, and operate as you wish. But don't be surprised that you can't sell people on the logic of the situation, it has none. You wish to pretend to obey restrictions without actually obeying them.
Read Adam Smith's "Theory of Moral Sentiments" if you want to know what he thought of unregulated Capitalism.
It's the book Ayn Rand never read and the one that no conservative would be able to stomach because he states explicitly that markets and capitalistic activity MUST be regulated for the common good.
Sound familiar? (I didn't think so.)
Is it wrong? Yes.
Should we do something about it? No.
If pacifist made an explicit choice to not fight back, why should we intercede to decide differently on his behalf, and respond with violence in his stead?
At least they get pie in the sky, when they die.
And after all, isn't that what it (religion) is all about?
Because there's a violent face-puncher on the loose and we shouldn't wait for him to run into a victim who will fight back?
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
Canada never (successfully) revolted against the British.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rebellions_of_1837
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Canada
"In 1867, with the union of three British North American colonies through Confederation, Canada was formed as a federal dominion of four provinces. This began an accretion of provinces and territories and a process of increasing autonomy from the British Empire, which became official with the Statute of Westminster of 1931 and completed in the Canada Act of 1982, which severed the vestiges of legal dependence on the British parliament."
Yet, Canada got rid of slavery decades before the USA. Canada now ranks higher on scales of health and happiness than the USA. So, there are other ways forward than violence.
Even the American Revolution probably would not have succeeded except for help from the French who were at odds with the British.
A related post I made today: http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3833389&cid=43945791
A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
That dilutes the moral point of being a pacifist, however. It's easy to be one when you have a big guy with a stick standing next to you and ready to enact violence on your behalf without you saying a word.
Taking "agreement" to mean "contract" (as it certainly does in my country), then why is the contract unenforceable without going to court? You complain to the other party that the contract is not being followed ; they either disagree (more complex) or agree, and start to correct their actions.
You're not suggesting that the "rampant piracy" model of business ethics is still prevalent in the home of ethical capitalist business, America. Or do you consider the concept of "ethical capitalist business" to be self contradictory? (I don't ; quite. But it takes unusual people, by the shipload, to achieve it.)
Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
Yes indeed. The French won the US war of Independence and then gave Americans the freedom that they so treasure. Any fair assessment of the final, decisive battle, the seige of Yorktown, would conclude that it was only won through the power of the French army and navy. Canada was not alone in finding a better way. Australia and New Zealand are also now much better places to live than the USA.
Heavy is the head that wears the tinfoil hat.