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Security Researcher Attacked While At Conference
New submitter fineous fingers writes "U.S. computer security researcher Georgia Weidman has revealed on her blog that a fellow speaker at the Confidence security conference in Krakow, Poland attempted to rape her. The attack occurred in her hotel room in the early morning hours of 28 May. Luckily, Georgia was able to fend her attacker off by clocking him in the head with a coffee mug. I was personally at this conference, but was staying at a different hotel and found out about it after the fact. It was Georgia herself that told me after she gave her fantastic talk on Leveraging Mobile Devices on Pentests. That she was able to give a flawless presentation later that day and had the courage to talk about the attack on her blog shows how awesome she really is."
He denies it. She presented no evidence. He presented none either, even though he is under no obligation to. No charges files. Her word against his.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
Mr. Potato Head, backdoors are not secrets.
Don't blame me, I voted for Baltar.
Let none denigrate the usefulness of humble convention swag again.
Don't blame me, I voted for Baltar.
like offline?
It's doubtful that'd you'd have the necessary strength to do so, but I applaud the aggression. Rapists are the worst sort of scum
She did go to the police. Neither person involved was Polish so they were not interested. Fingers
how are you going to get the address of his mother when he is dead? Moreover, how are you going to prove attempted rape to the authorities?
Silence is a state of mime.
Luckily, Georgia was able to fend her attacker off by clocking him in the head with a coffee mug.
See? Java skill will always come in handy for the code warriors in every unexpected situation.
sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
NO no no, there is no reason why you should feel ashamed for anything anyone else did.
It is as bad as people trying to make all white Americans feel bad because some shitty people kept slaves a couple hundred years ago, and pushed the natives off their land. If you personally did not do something bad, or through inaction allow something bad to happen, you have nothing to be ashamed of.
From victim of assault to stupid and ignorant. You claim to remove Bias, then subtly introducing yours.
How ignorant of empathy are you, Anon?
It's guys like you who we can miss like the plague.
-- Cheers!
As a male I feel ashamed that such a male exists among us.
That's muddle-headed thinking. Be proud or ashamed of your own actions, not those of strangers.
Space game using normal deck of cards: http://BattleCards.org
Been drinking a bit too much caffeine today?
While this alleged incident is reprehensible, I don't think it warrants going John Wayne Bobbit on the perp. It's no excuse for the behavior however I do wonder why from the blog posting there's this:
Note: There will be no names named here. The perpetrator is not named. Likewise the heroes of the story who probably saved me from going to jail and at the very least comforted me when it felt like the floor was going to fall through are left unnamed. That said if you want to know the names I am willing to discuss it privately.
Okay, this raises a few questions, no names mentioned, no charges filed and I guess maybe the Police were involved or not but... shit, the blog posting reads more like "The Vagina Monologues" and goes wandering around. It may make a great chapter in an upcoming novel but I'm not discounting what she's saying either, it just doesn't ring true when you won't say "Look, this MF named Mr. ______ tried to rape me. And these other folks ______ _______ saw it." Look, if you're assaulted go to the authorities, file charges and name names. If this guy is a bad apple and he needs to be called out otherwise this is an incident that *maybe* happened and without at least some other folks stepping forward and saying "yeah, I saw it" or "yeah, he raped me" then these can be considered hearsay or fiction. If you're going to put it in a Blog, put the names down for Christ sake.. Shit last year two guys making jokes were lambasted as being chauvinists all across the Internet for something that is magnitudes less significant than this supposed incident. You know what, I call that offensive but it's also free speech.
Now, I'm not condoning violence against women, especially Rape but let's also not forget how lynchings start and recently the infamous case of DSK and how that all fell apart. Yeah DSK was(or is) a womanizer and probably didn't deserve all the BS he received, or maybe he did: including losing his position with the World Bank. I kind of put these kinds of stories in along with what Roseann Barr did a few years ago with "Repressed Memories."
So please put the chainsaw down and look objectively at what this person and their story and certainly cheer for her standing up to this guy but don't start eviscerating every guy out there.
Harrison's Postulate - "For every action there is an equal and opposite criticism"
RTFA, dumbass. She did report it but the Polish police declined to file a report.
Heh, your comment reminds me of those Internet Tough Guys. No offence, but say that again after actually going through the situation.
I come here to /. to read about computers, software, and technology in general.
Yet what do I actually encounter? Some article about a bunch of drama that allegedly took place at some obscure conference in eastern Europe a month ago.
But what's worse is reading through comments and encountering one like this one from "decora". Why is a comment talking about violently killing somebody, then butchering the victim's genitals, and finally mailing them to the victim's mother modded up to "5, Insightful"?
Come on. That's the kind of crap I expect to see modded up at a place like reddit. And that's exactly why I don't visit reddit, but come here instead. We shouldn't have to encounter nonsense submissions like this one, nor utterly stupid (if not outright disgusting) comments modded up so highly.
Can /. please go back to focusing on technology, rather than junk like this?
No one really knows how they'd handle such a situation until they are in it. Past thoughts and declarations might predispose an untrained person to a certain action, but when a harsh reality comes suddenly and unexpectedly it's all about instinct and fight or flight responses.
I've been enough dangerous situations to know that I'm neither a courageous man nor a coward, but simply a man. I saved a roofied woman from being raped by a group of strangers and have a heavily scared face to remind me of my moment of courage. On the other hand, I ran like hell when skinheads raided my friend's party with baseball bats and knives. I have the memory of standing over my friend's hospital bed as he was nursed back to health to remind me of my moment of cowardice.
The lady from the article is alive and was able to free herself from her attacker. That is what matters.
This isn't a movie you idiot. You hit him with what's available and get out. The size and strength difference between you and 99% of the male population puts you at a huge disadvantage and being overly aggressive is a good way to get yourself beat to death.
Ask Whoopie. I hear she's an expert on what is and isn't really "rape rape".
The lack of sympathy in these comments is as awful as the blog post.
or do you just choose to defend the rights of attempted murderers?
You took the time to write that whole thing, but didn't even RTFA? She reported it to the police, and they weren't interested because neither were locals.
So, basically, your entire post is irrelevant.
Help I am stuck in a signature factory!
Mod parent up.
its called "self defense", to kill someone who is trying to kill you.
this man was trying to kill her. he beat her in the face. she had no idea how many times he would do it, or how far he would go.
she defended herself.
you are saying that she shouldnt have.
its life or death situation. you protect your own life, not the life of a scumbag criminal sociopath.
You genuinely feel shame that there is a bad guy on the planet? You must be completely wrought with shame to the point of not being able to function in society knowing just how many men (and women!) are bad people!
attempeted murder is attempetd murder, and self defense is self defense. why would i post someting so strong?
its called a "pre-emptive strike" against all the rape apologists on slashdot and in the tech "community" in general. hit them fast, hit them hard, hit them first. you either believe people have a right to defend themselves against a violent assault, or they dont. its not drama, its not a disagreement. its a fucking attempted murder at a security con.
if you dont want to talk about attempted murder in the "tech community" then go fucking read ars technica. you can find a great new review of the hottest new video game.
that Hans Reiser was an abusive asshole. i mean, where was the hard evidence? other than her bloody body lying in a trash dump a few months later, how was anyone to know the guy was guilty?
yes, why not have millions of people calling you a fucking whore piece of shit slut lying cunt bitch, on the internet? its a great career move for her small business. to beat herself in the face and then lie about it.
From her blog (her post is long and detailed):
From his blog (he wrote very little):
What disturbs me here is the knee-jerk suggestion that she invented the story for some unspecified reason. Statistically, only a very small number of rape accusations turn out to be fabricated. Of course I don't know for sure what happened. I've never even heard of these people before. But based on the little evidence I have seen, I know who I believe.
As a male I feel ashamed that such a male exists among us.
Speak for yourself.
Most serial killers are men too. And as a man, I don't feel any shame or responsibility for that fact.
Yes, I'm sure the police ignore all crimes involving only foreigners, especially something as terrible as rape or attempted murder.
Do you mean we can miss folks like Julian Assange ? He is in the same boat.
It became assault when he did not stop when ordered to.
So, such convention are reserved to real men, and women have to be their sex-slave ?
Who would have thought a coffee mug was so effective against an attacker :-)
Two people go into a hotel room, apparently uninjured.
They subsequently leave the hotel room with documented physical injuries.
The physically weaker person provides a detailed account of their version of events, claiming that the physically stronger person attacked them, they were luckily able to fight off the stronger person and escape, but that the local (foreign) police did not pursue this case due to a lack of conclusive evidence.
The physically stronger person responds to these allegations with a blog post titled Lies, nuts, and the quest for attention, which focuses on ad hominem attacks and how very, very butthurt he is that people are even considering these allegations. The blog post does not provide any alternate explanation for the events that resulted in injuries to both parties, or any new information at all.
I'm having difficulty coming up with a rational explanation that doesn't include the stronger person being a predator who engineered a situation where they expected to face no consequences for their actions due to the victim being in an unfamiliar environment with limited support, the disinclination of local law enforcement to become involved in a dispute between foreign nationals, and engineered absence of conclusive evidence.
My opinion? I have no doubt that her story is substantively true. The argument that 'the polish police did not arrest me, so I must not have done it' is about as convincing as tissue paper to anyone who has seen the inconsistent results of even well-trained and well-equipped police forces-- if what we've seen so far is all he has to offer then he should be rightly shunned by the tech community and then some.
Given the alleged crime and narcissistic tone of the blog post, there are likely similar victims out there. Hopefully they will come forward as well.
"We have to go forth and crush every world view that doesn't believe in tolerance and free speech." - David Brin
Now is this an actual rape attempt, or a guy just trying to woo a fellow tech geek?
Some of those tumblr "feminists" classify even a guy trying his latest pick up line on a girl a "rape attempt".
Your missing OP's sarcasm I believe..
Here's what we know
- Gont sported a black eye and other injuries around his eye the day after the attack.
- Polish police found Weidman's possessions in Gont's room after the attack.
- Gont has been arrested for rape in 2011.
Dude sounds like a crazy ass rapist.
Still it is difficult not to feel a little shame from the fact we all belong to the same species. Of course you are by no way responsible for the actions of others, but you can still fell a little sad and ashamed by the incommensurable stupidity of our fellows.
Video of some good progressive thrash music
No, that's a troll. Trolling was invented here on slashdot, I don't care what 4chan might have to say on the matter, or some usenet post. We even dedicated organisations (the GNAA) who made trolling their raison d'etre, people who put significant time and effort into trolling (like setting up an image gallery mirror that randomly displayed offensive pictures, that one even got a few solid members modded into oblivion), frosty piss remains a cherished goal. 90% of the misogyny in these discussions is from the same people who will try to rick roll you into clicking on a goatse picture.
Never blame malice when incompetence is sufficient, and never blame incompetence when some halfwit getting their kicks from people clutching their pearls is sufficient.
ut she was drunk and she did invite him in so where on the rape scale should this be? Would any fright wingers care to fill in the blanks?
And she did make a point of mentioning both the drinking and invitation. And that is probably exactly when the Police lost interest.
When she mentioned these things, I saw more than a little self doubt being expressed. No doubt she's second guessing the choices she made that night.
Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
It was sarcasm. Sorry if that wasn't clear enough.
Unless you are in an area where tourism is important, yes, they do. They can't successfully prosecute if there are no witnesses, and if all the witnesses will be gone at the time of the trial, taking a complaint is a waste of time. So yes, many places will refuse to prosecute if they assume you won't be in town or reachable during a trial.
And not everywhere shares your views on attempted rape. She wasn't actually raped or killed, and rape isn't as serious everywhere as you imply. There was a recent case in Nigera where a mob attacked and stripped a woman for not wearing a long enough skirt, leaving her naked and abused in the street. From what I've heard, the public outcry there was in support of the mob, but I'm not in Nigera.
Learn to love Alaska
People like that are the ones you the plague doesn't miss.
She filed the police report and was given the impression that a non-fatal incident between two foreigners would not be investigated, so she continued reporting it to the conference organizers and her blog.
Learn to love Alaska
insert hope please
So, basically, your entire post is irrelevant.
You must be new here. Seems more posts here support him than her, and most indicate lack of reading of TFA.
Learn to love Alaska
my bad.
Yes, there is corroborating evidence for all of it. For fuck's sake, go read the links and comments.
My blog: http://www.seebs.net/log/ --- My iPhone/iPad app: http://www.seebs.net/seebsfrac/
That she was able to give a flawless presentation later that day and had the stupidity to talk about the attack on her blog shows how ignorant of the law she really is.
And you have a degree in Polish law? Oh no, you are in fact as ignorant or more than she is, but complain because you find her truth to be inconvenient. Why?
Learn to love Alaska
Sad about it, I agree with you. But only that.
Space game using normal deck of cards: http://BattleCards.org
I have no doubt that her story is substantively true.
I can think of at least three rational alternative that while unlikely prevent any claim of "no doubt".
None of these are particularly likely given what we currently know, but it is absurd to have "no doubt".
Why is this modded down, when obviously sarcastic? +1 insightful.
Why do peoply get angry about women wearing burqas when that's really exactly what we seem to want. We want to be able to live in freedom but when someone is nearly raped she always asked for it.
Now, that is funny. See, one can find jokes about rape funny (albeit not very often), while still finding rape itself horrible. I never get when people fail to see the distinction.
Go back and read her ENTIRE blog post this time. Every word of it. Slowly.
Now read it again.
Now THINK.
Then post.
Thank you Georgia for your brave heart and your humanist approach. As a male I feel ashamed that such a male exists among us.
I'm ashamed that you're the same species as me, nevermind the same gender. Fo the record, the rest of us male would like you to stop being ashamed; henceforth you can call yourself female - that's a win for both us and you by my account.
I'm a minority race. Save your vitriol for white people.
His take is on his blog: http://blog.gont.com.ar/2013/06/lies-nuts-and-quest-for-attention.html. Offering no insights on what happened (he's entitled to that stance).
My take: He did go to her room. There was some sort of skirmish and both got wounded. The rest is unclear. BUT, if I were invited to someones room, and things started to get out of hand, with fighting and violence and whatnot in the air, I'd GET THE F OUT! Even if there's no attempted rape involved, you don't fight with a woman in her hotel room, even if it's just to avoid accusations. Okay, so that doesn't prove anything, I know, but you know, it is a little weird.
I think you'd be better off getting some training in warding off aggressive persons in as quick and effective a way as possible (eg. Krav Maga, etc) than some bone-headed 'until his blood spurted out all over my shirt' action. The former would probably be seen as rightful self defence while the latter sounds more like a punishable offence.
--frank[at]unternet.org
Magic of caching..
Okay Fernando = Dick.
"Never Mind" - Emily Latilla
Harrison's Postulate - "For every action there is an equal and opposite criticism"
She contacted the police immediately. The police indicated a lack of will to pursue the matter.
And why is that, exactly?
Are we going to pretend that Poland is some sort of ooga-booga sketchy-european criminal-justice wasteland compared to the US? Because Poland, 6th largest state in the EU, has half the rate of sexual assault of the US. In fact, looking down the list, I don't see a single crime that is more common in Poland than the US.
Please help metamoderate.
The police came. They were very blah blah about the whole thing. They were really blah blah about it when I spoke to them later too. I had no proof. I had been drinking. He denied it, all that jazz.
and...
As a side note, it gets a little bit weirder. When the police were there they asked for my ID. At that point I still thought maybe I was the one going to jail. I had a rapidly darkening eye but other than that I was fine. Based on the reactions from people who saw the guy later, he was in a lot worse shape than me.
Why really would she think she's going to jail for defending herself? This story smells more rotten every minute.
Going to jail for giving them your ID? I have been stopped a few times in other countries and have never felt like I was going to jail for showing an official my passport or drivers license (Canada many times before the border stupidity). It's routine here in the US, you get stopped by a cop, he asks for your ID, you have the police at your house, they ask for your ID.
Again, what may or may not have went on in that room comes down to physical evidence. If the police didn't gather any evidence they must have felt that there wasn't much of a case here or a crime. Which means, maybe this is being blown out of proportion?
Harrison's Postulate - "For every action there is an equal and opposite criticism"
Did someone forgot their medication today?
There is nothing wrong with yr Internet. Do not attempt to adjust the picture. We are controlling the transmission - NSA
Poland is not Nigeria, though. Poland is part of the European Union, and I can assure you that rape is as serious a matter as it is in the US.
if someone tried to rape me it wouldnt be a fucking coffee mug. it would be his head against the corner of a table, over and over and over, until his blood spurted out all over my shirt. then id cut off his dick and mail it to his mother.
i commend her for her restraint.
If it wasn't rape, but you were bat shit crazy, you'd do the same thing anyway. People would even laugh about it long after you were jailed; Remember Lorenait Bobbitt? People like you are worse than rapists. I've been raped. I've also been beaten to within an inch of my life. I'd rather be raped again than killed.
If you're going to accuse somebody of a criminal act, it's always a good idea to get their side of the story. http://blog.gont.com.ar/
When she was contacted by the Consulate, I'm sure they informed her of this:
If you decide to pursue your case through the Polish judicial system, the initial step is
filing a police report. It is best to do this at the police station (komisariat policji) closest
to where the incident occurred, although a police report can be filed at any police station.
and
In Poland, police stations are required to take your report regardless of your nationality or
resident status. Police stations are also required to provide translators, although this can
take some time to arrange; the U.S. Embassy does not provide translators. If, for any
reason, you have difficulties filing your police report with a Polish official, please let us
know immediately.
Her blog states:
The US Consulate was great though. It was a night and day difference between dealing with them and the Polish police. I’d recommend getting in touch with them to anyone who has an incident in a foreign country. While ultimately they aren’t able to force charges against him, having someone on my side was nice.
So, was a police report filed? This seems pretty straight forward and that the Polish Police have to take a report. According to the blog they were "blah blah" So, according to the blog, no. If she had any discussion with a member of the US Consulate they would have had this discussion. If she felt so violated then why didn't she file a report? It's her right and the consulate would stand behind her. why? Also her comments "Blah blah" regarding the police and not being interested are contrary of the US government's position and own documents. Sorry, this looks like a he said/she said unless there's anything else that wants to put out there.
Speaking of putting this out there, without anybody else coming forward with something, a picture a copy of a police report a criminal court proceeding, maybe Fernando her getting hauled away in cuffs perhaps? No? Why not? There's camera phones, there's other people involved who are still not being named, maybe they don't exist? I'd love to see the video, where is the video that everybody supposedly has seen? Wait, only her word?
I'm sorry she got hurt, bruised... It sounds like she gave as good as she received though (bad choice of words?)
Again, don't put this guy on trial without evidence and statements from witnesses. Also, who here thought DSK was guilty of assault on that maid in NYC from just the press reports? Was he ever on trail for it? No. He was acquitted.
I'm going to now go get some popcorn and watch the twitterscape on this one. IMO, she's an intelligent person, well respected in her field and in terms of handling this episode, as traumatic as it sounds, she really didn't handle the situation well and now she's using the web to try her case. I haven't looked anywhere else but does anybody have something more than a twitter posting about this from somebody else that was there? How about some pictures.. I'm putting on my Don Henley music now.
Harrison's Postulate - "For every action there is an equal and opposite criticism"
Perhaps it is both. She is a liar and he is a rapist. Any takers?
I object to power without constructive purpose. --Spock
Her blog says that the Polish police have a report. But they aren't going to do anything about it.
Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
You need to go to better parties...
Just saying.
Yes. And "assault and attempted rape" is a serious crime, just like almost murdering someone is.
Why does this matter?
She invited him into her room. She did not invite him to have sex with her.
I'm glad we live in a world where social contact doesn't mean an invitation to forcibly fuck. I rather like having interactions with women that are based on something other than sex.
They both go up to her room. They talk for a while, they start making out on the bed. He starts getting handsy, she starts refuting him.
Now, I'll make a brief consideration here. We don't know what was actually said in the room, if anything. Her blog says:
Perhaps I was not making myself clear, “No!” “Stop!” “I don’t want to do this!”
But since we're being constrained by the evidence here, let's just be fair and admit that we just don't know.
So, he starts getting handsy, she starts refuting him. He then does or says that she dislikes (moves his hands down her pants, says something offensive in her ear), and then, pay attention, she physically assaults him. Maybe she bites him, maybe she punches him, knees him on groin, whatever. And then he loses his temper, and hits her. Maybe the violence continues in some way, maybe not, he eventually leaves.
So he hit a woman, and that's assault, sure. But rape? No.
But there's yet another distinction to be drawn. Maybe she really does believe she was going to be raped. I'm not ruling that out. And maybe you'll say "Well, if she was refuting him, it must have been rape". But let me make another consideration: Rape has to do with the state of mind of the violated party, at the time the events were happening, but it also has to do with the actions and perceptions of the perpetrator. Like I said, we don't know what happened or what was said, and that's the crux of the matter. I find it perfectly possible that she may have said or done something that he didn't think was really supposed to make him stop, and in a perfectly understandable way. This is where the "no means no" thing comes into play, and where rape gets into the grey zone: If a man walks up to a complete stranger and tries to have sex with her, the most reasonable assumption is that any form of "no" means "no". If you're talking about a boyfriend and girlfriend having sex, I'll find it completely understandable if she's saying "stop" but really means "keep going". In a lot of scenarios in between, the line gets blurry. If you've had drinks with a guy and invited him up to your hotel room at the end of the night, I'm afraid it doesn't get blurry in your favor. Or yet, maybe she didn't say or do anything at all to make him stop, until she had an unreasonable reaction of assaulting him. Again, there's no evidence of what happened in the room.
By the way, what is this "engineered a situation" that you speak of? He engineered getting invited back into her room? He engineered the conference being a place that was familiar to neither of them? And, by god, how does one engineer the absence of evidence? To me, that can only mean that it would be reasonable to expect to find certain pieces of evidence which were, against such reasonable expectation, not there - and I can't think of anything in this story that fits that.
Other thoughts I have about her story in general:
- Her post is rather "verbose", as someone else here described it, yet there are only three paragraphs dedicated to what would have actually constituted the attack.
- I agree with another poster who said that, on the photo posted elsewhere here, he's missing the cut on his temple he is supposed to have from her account.
- Who the heck tries to rape someone, fails, and then thinks "Well I may as well leave with her passport, iPad, a cellphone, and whatever?" And is even dumb enough to keep that shit in his own room later. And is dumber yet to personally return that stuff later.
Her account is detailed, and there are images that show the respective injuries. What, you think she attacked him and he simply defended himself by punching her in the face? His account is what I would expect coming from an asshole who does things like this and expects to get away with it. Items missing from her room just happened to "magically appear" in his room after he denied taking them? Yeah.
The Polish police do have a report, but they aren't doing anything about it. And given that they are both foreigners from different countries, it is unlikely they ever will do anything about it. Pretty typical actually if you have ever dealt with foreign authorities, even in first world countries.
Her story is far more credible than his. His story sounds more like a sociopath. The circumstantial evidence appears to be in her favor.
At the very least, hopefully other female tech experts attending conferences with this guy will be on their guard.
~X~
There's always a tough line between consensual and forced. If she was obviously lucid when she admitted him to her room, and if no penetration occurred, the facts of the fight simply can't legally be established, especially if he was the one with the near concussion. Is she simply a drunk with a mean disposition? The defense attorney would hammer that home and probably successfully. I've seen women who like the forceful pursuing part of the equation. Remember "Go easy on the broad" in Once Upon a Time in America? It can be difficult to tell the difference between 'no' and seriously no. In this instance, he has as much a defamation case as she has an attempted rape case, but neither has any chance of winning in court.
Thank you to the man who feels ashamed of the man who attacked your colleague. The only people capable of making rape less common are men. The less this sort of behavior is treated as even remotely appropriate, the less it will provide the offending types with the sense of power and accomplishment they want. His response is absolutely typical of a privileged male accused by someone he perceives as less established in his community.
Take your projections elsewhere please. No one is saying he was right to try and rape her, all everyone is saying is that there is a lack of evidence needed to prove that's what happened. If you're being attacked then by all means kill your attacker, you won't find any complaints from me.
Yeah all that I can probably say is one: Poland may not be the best place if you're a woman traveling alone (include India and Brazil in that as well) two: If you're wronged, even in a foreign land, if the local authorities choose not to prosecute, get a lawyer or get your Consulate involved. (I've actually had to do both at one time, ahhh those crazy days of youth anyway.) If they choose not to prosecute call attention to their inaction wherever you can but I don't see any statements or blogs or twitter postings that say she's pushed the issue other than her blog and now it seems crossposting over to the infosec
20 years ago, this may have been a news item in the local paper and maybe a story in the hometown news. Now with Twitter and the blogosphere out there, it seems you can do character assassination with very, very little proof other than a "credible story." If everybody believes this guy initiated an attack, I would think a few e-mails to the local Polish authorities and the US Consulate in Poland may shake a few things loose. I don't know if there's a statute of limitations but at least somebody up the food chain in that country should be able to give the lady a reason, and maybe the rest of us since we're now invited to watch, a reason as to why one or both of them wasn't arrested? No more than two years ago we watched a guy who had a womanizing 'history' get the full on character assassination bit. The world watched as a guy, with a lot of power being in charge of the World Bank, was torn up in the press by statements and circumstantial evidence. He walked, but he lost his career (at least as World Finances are concerned). Yeah the guy is a sleezebag, but who isn't in High Finance? Being a sleezebag isn't a crime. Now he's up on prostitution charges or some such, anyway, at least that's in front of a judge, with witnesses and evidence and all the other things that guarantee an accused of a fair trail.
Just like last year when two guys joking together were called out as being "offensive" and "sexist" and plastered all over the Internet. That's not right, if the comments and actions were directed and the person calling "foul" then yes, she had a right to feel indignant but if you don't like the content of the conversation and you're not involved in it, why should you take offense over it's content if it's not hurting anyone? I will say in that case, at least she had photos and a bit more detail.
I'm not saying this lady doesn't have a case but again, rather than pushing the process, she's trying to shame the guy. So ladies if you go to a conference by yourself in another country, don't let strangers (or strange men) into your room.
Also, after all of this, the one bright spot in me reading all of this and stumbling on a cross-post on the Infosec News blog. is this John McAfee YouTube Video on how to uninstall McAfee software
Harrison's Postulate - "For every action there is an equal and opposite criticism"
With just a little bit of googling, the guy's married and has a kid. Even if it was a 'mutually abusive situation', what kind of guy steps out on his wife? Especially after she just gave birth to their daughter in the last 18 months? The guy's integrity is blown at that point, so it's all downhill from there. Now, add to the situation that the girl's property was found in the guy's room? He's a cheating husband AND a thief at least. Not the best position to be in when it comes to establishing credibility. As for the girl, she's a single lady and what does she gain by publishing her side of the story? I just don't see why there's so much skepticism on this forum about what's going on. The bigger issue here, the number of women getting harassed at conferences is increasing at a number of different venues. http://www.democraticunderground.com/121835860 Until it is clear that this type of behavior is unacceptable and there are consequences for their behavior, cads like Gont will continue to think they don't have to be accountable for their actions while they are traveling.
All we know for sure is that a woman is claiming a man violently attempted to rape her, and the man is apparently denying any such thing happened. As far as the other 99.99999% of the world is concerned, either side could be telling the truth. We have no way to know. We have no appropriate way to find out, unless people are advocating a Boston Marathon type witch hunt. And given what happened there, I am surprised and disappointed that Slashdot posted this.
Shame on Slashdot, and shame on anyone else who engages in the actual debate. Each side may be making public posts about what happened, but that does not make it our responsibility to indulge them in the wrong way to approach this. All this can do is serve to muddy the water to make it harder for any sort of proper official investigation.
"Still it is difficult not to feel a little shame from the fact we all belong to the same species."
Both the attacker and the attacked belong to the same species.
Seriously I'd be ashamed if I was at and near the scene of the crime and did nothing about it. As another poster said, why should I be ashamed of the actions of some oversexed scumbag hundred of miles away from me? Otherwise we should all be ashamed every time some person with social standing/gender/race/etc similar to ours does something horrible.
Yes I'd love to hear his side of the story, thing is he doesn't provide one, he simply calls her a lying crazy person, hardly an explanation of what happened from his perspective.
Now try it with your real name attached, you disgusting asshole.
In some places, it's still a crime to be raped, but not to commit rape. Or marital rape is legal, or was until very recently. That seems to prove that it's not treated the same everywhere. It's not me that's fucked up, it's humanity. Well, and you personally as well, for taking a small segment of a sentence, repeating it, and making it out to be the opposite of in context.
Learn to love Alaska
Perhaps Last Thursdayism is true, and none of this ever happened.
sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f(q{sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f});
You know ever time you sign off your name it I thought you were misspelling "Figures", as in "Go Figure". Every post of yours I've read it would fit in so nicely :-)
Woman and man have a wonderful night. Both are into rough stuff so they have an injury and both go their separate ways. Soon after the US government trying to prosecute a man outside their jurisdiction strong arms the woman into getting the man arrested in a country with an extradition treaty?
That would never happen right?
Who the heck tries to rape someone, fails, and then thinks "Well I may as well leave with her passport, iPad, a cellphone, and whatever?"
The "who could be that stupid" thought, especially when the person in question is smart enough to be a researcher, is why my first thought on hearing about Nina Reiser was that Hans Reiser couldn't have murdered her because that would be such an unbelievably stupid way for a successful and even somewhat famous person to handle difficulties with another. No one smart and determined enough to create a good, viable file system used in the Linux kernel could possibly fail to think of all sorts of other courses of action, such as divorce, or could possibly choose a way so likely to end just the way it did, with him behind bars, his reputation hopelessly ruined, and his file system, his life work rotting away. As we all now know, he did indeed choose poorly. Yes, people, even very intelligent people, really will do very stupid things.
So, he starts getting handsy, she starts refuting him. He then does or says that she dislikes (moves his hands down her pants, says something offensive in her ear), and then, pay attention, she physically assaults him.
Do you even understand what you are saying? She said "no". That means, no touching. It sure as hell is attempted rape when he continues the "handsy" business. Stop kidding yourself on this point. We all understand very well what he was trying to do. If you touch someone, volutarily touch someone, after they told you not to, they are fully justified in considering it an assault at the least, and using whatever force is necessary to stop you. That's not assault, that's self defense. And I think the law agrees on this point. Touching is the line that you do not cross. Also, it occurred in her room. He was never confined to her room, he was free to leave any time. For so long as he remained in the room in spite of being told to leave, I'd say she was fully within her rights to fight back in any way she could.
Intellectual Property is a monopolistic, selfish, and defective concept. It is "tyranny over the mind of man"
No, you wouldn't.
There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
...
<disableOprahficationOfAmerica_PCFilter>
"Fighting on the Internet is like running in the special Olympics, even if you win you are still retarded." - Anonymous Quote
</disableOprahficationOfAmerica_PCFilter>
Harrison's Postulate - "For every action there is an equal and opposite criticism"
Actually, we don't know that. All we know is what she said. We have only one side of the story and it could be completely false from the point he enters the room to the time he leaves.
There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
You forgot: Woman gets drunk and invites man up to her room. They get along and sex starts. Woman has second thoughts, discovers he is involved with someone else, etc and decides to put a stop to it by clocking man in the head with a coffee cup and claiming rape to protect her reputation.
There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
Killing an attacker to save your ass is betting on luck as polish courts have set sometimes quite big limits of what you can do in self defense. Still this would clarify the situation a bit. Right now it is just she says/he says things possibly leading to life destruction for the guy who I would like to remind /. lynchers - has not been charged. If he is guilty - hang him high but do the due process. Poland is not a savage country where police and courts are unable to do what they are supposed to albeit sometimes they need motivation trough lost cases in human rights tribunal and such. But that is not that different from any other European country.
Did you actually read what you wrote?
she physically assaults him. Maybe she bites him, maybe she punches him, knees him on groin, whatever.
At that point it would be assault and/or battery depending on local laws.
So he hit a woman, and that's assault, sure.
Why is it, in your example, that it is only assault when he hits her? Hitting her back could be an act of self-defense on his part, especially if her initial assault involved the coffee cup mentioned in her account.
There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
Do you even understand what you are saying? She said "no". That means, no touching. It sure as hell is attempted rape when he continues the "handsy" business.
In some cultures, it is expect that a woman will say that even if she wants it to continue. You also seem to have missed the part in the example where they are "making out" on the bed, thus touching. And, there is no guarantee how the "no" was stated or taken. The "no" could have been taken as "no, don't do stick your hands down my pants" and, because they continued to kiss, he tried something else such as sticking his hands up her shirt. At that point, she might have, as the GP states, "physically assaulted" him.
As to him being in her room, you are assuming that her physical attack to him becoming "handsy" during the make-out session wasn't to hit him with the coffee cup. From his point of view, things could have gone from making out with a cute woman to having same said woman trying to kill him.
There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
So, the evidence shows who attacked whom? For all you know, the "physically weaker" person launched a sneak attack on the "physically stronger" person using a weapon, say a coffee cup to the head from behind.
You want an explanation? He is invited up to the room. He misunderstand her invitation. She rejects him. He calls her a teasing bitch. Insulted and pissed off, when he turns to pick up his jacket from the bed, she grabs a coffee cup and hits him in the side of the head with it. He goes down, she presses her attack and he defends himself. He is able to grab his stuff and inadvertently grabs some of her stuff too and make his way out of the room. She claims he tried to rape her to cover her ass.
Your argument requires law enforcement not only failing to do a proper job but actually destroying evidence. To me, it sounds like you have watched too much TV and are biased against police seeing them as incompetent at best and malicious malingerers at worst.
There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
In some cultures, it is expect that a woman will say that ("no") even if she wants it to continue.
"Continue"? There is no "continue" here, there is only start. How is she supposed to signal that she does not want it to start? Not invite any men up to her room for just talk, nothing more, and definitely no make-out sessions? Only men can meet for a bit of shop talk in hotel rooms without it leading to a "misunderstanding"? Or is she not supposed to have any say at all, and these cultures you refer to are these extremely patriarchal cultures that treat women like slaves? In many cultures, it's customary for the man and the woman to get to know each other first, even, you know, wait until marriage before having sex.
The "no" could have been taken as "no, don't do stick your hands down my pants" and, because they continued to kiss...
Bullcrap again. How is she supposed to say "no" so it will not be misunderstood to mean "do something else" instead of "don't do anything"? They didn't continue to kiss, it was he started groping her. She didn't so much as want to start anything, let alone continue. When she fought back, he didn't stop to inquire, but tried to force her. Yeah, on the basis of all of an hour or 2 acquaintance, he just magically knows what she really means, knows all about her wants and expectations? No way!
Intellectual Property is a monopolistic, selfish, and defective concept. It is "tyranny over the mind of man"
In the post to which you replied, s2v16 puts forth an hypothetical course of events that could have let to the divergent stories of the parties. In that hypothetical situation is the following:
They both go up to her room. They talk for a while, they start making out on the bed. He starts getting handsy, she starts refuting him.
In that situation, the one to which your replied, it is stated explicitly that the parties were initially in mutually welcome contact. However, you are not arguing against this. You are effectively stating that we should accept that what she has said occurred happened exactly as she stated and we have no reason to do so. If you have any reason we should do so, besides the fact that she is a woman and is making the claim, I would love to hear it.
I would also like you to confine your arguments to the situation to which you replied, but I seriously doubt that will happen.
There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
You are referring to this: "They talk for a while, they start making out on the bed." That's NOT what happened. They did not start, he started. She did not want to start. She told him that she did not want to start. No account I have heard gives us any reason to think otherwise. Not even his account.
But let's, as you say, talk about this hypothetical situation. It is ridiculously unlikely that a woman would want to have sex with a stranger she only just met, so already the hypothetical situation is shaky. I realize prostitutes may do just that, but it cannot be said to be freely willing and only because they want to, they do it for money or because a pimp coerces them. But let's run with it anyway: They started, and then she changed her mind. She clearly told him to stop. Clearly. But he did not stop. He's in the wrong. Both have every right to break off anytime, and the other party is obliged to stop. Both must have a clear way to signal "stop", there can't be any of this bull about no really meaning yes but in a different way.
Intellectual Property is a monopolistic, selfish, and defective concept. It is "tyranny over the mind of man"
Back the fuck up a second.
Did you actually read what you wrote?
I'm not actually sure what you're criticizing here. I'll assume it's the fact that I said that my scenario wouldn't constitute rape.
So let's review what I said: "Rape has to do with the state of mind of the violated party, at the time the events were happening, but it also has to do with the actions and perceptions of the perpetrator. Like I said, we don't know what happened or what was said, and that's the crux of the matter.". That was actually slightly wrong, since it really should say "actions of the perpetrator and what he should reasonably have been expected perceive". I also said: "If you've had drinks with a guy and invited him up to your hotel room at the end of the night, I'm afraid it [the 'no means no' line] doesn't get blurry in your favor."
So with that I'm mind, what I was trying to show was that the person I was replying to was wrong: the current evidence does support reasonable doubt. We don't know that she said anything at all for him to stop. We don't know that, if she did say something, he should have reasonably be expected to perceive that as a sign to stop, because we don't know what, how or in what context it was said. Basically, I was providing an alternate explanation as to how two people, one with a bigger build and significantly more strength than the other, might enter a room and come back out with bruises without it being (attempted) rape.
she physically assaults him. Maybe she bites him, maybe she punches him, knees him on groin, whatever.
At that point it would be assault and/or battery depending on local laws.
I didn't want to get into the details of it in an already-too-long post, but like you said, depending on local laws. In my scenario, I didn't exclude the possibility of her actually believing she was going to be raped. Now, the actual answer as to whether she hitting him first would constitute assault and/or battery might depend a little on how much leeway is given in the law or by the courts to self-defense. Let's work a modified version of my scenario: They're getting along, kissing and whatnot, she's a little too drunk, and maybe she was fine with everything up to this point, or maybe she thought that what she was saying was enough to dissuade him from moving towards sex (even though, it shouldn't reasonably have been expected for him to see it this way), but at this one particular moment she realizes he took of both his and her pants, and he's going to lie back down on top of her. A switch in her head, because she really wasn't ready to have sex with him, and she, legitimately afraid for herself, hits him.
Like I said, it depends a little on how much or little leeway is given for self-defense in a particular place, but even in this scenario, it could be (and I'll venture that in most places with high proctetion of "human rights", it will be) construed as self-defense under the law. The "how much leeway" part is important here.
So he hit a woman, and that's assault, sure.
Why is it, in your example, that it is only assault when he hits her? Hitting her back could be an act of self-defense on his part, especially if her initial assault involved the coffee cup mentioned in her account.
So with the first part explained, the second part is easier. For an action to constitute self-defense, there mu
Wow, slashdot let me know you had replied to my post, and I thought your first point about Hans Reiser was a rather fair one, but as far everything else goes, it seems you really can't respond to a clear argument. Read back on your posts and notice how in every one of them you completely take her account for granted. You said "No account I have heard gives us any reason to think otherwise. Not even his account.", but notice he actually chose not give his account of events (except, as he stated, to friends, family and whatnot). Notice, also, how I said there was absolutely no evidence to support the idea that she even told him to back off at all, other than what she said. And now you're saying no one ever goes up to their hotel room to have a one-night stand with a stranger? (and more to your point, notice she had actually met him on previous occasions, as per her story). Just sad.
Just one phrase: "Adria Richards"
Did he or didn't he? I don't know.
Is she telling it like it is? I don't know.
http://www.cotwa.info/
There's just too much other stuff to rely on a single person's allegations as evidence enough to convict.
Often I am very proud of my male techie compatriots, today is not that day. You sound like petty thoughtless children, arguing as if this were a debate over the rules in some D&D game, rather than an attempted rape, that through pure luck and forthrightness the woman was able to escape. I'm not entirely sure why your first thought is to disbelieve and come up with reasons why it might not be true, regardless of the fact that her claim is more likely to cause her harm than good and her entire motivation is to make sure nobody else suffers the same fate. In fact I'd go as far as to say you'd be pretty foolish if you think she's likely to come out of this smelling like roses and go on to have an even more successful career because of it, you'll also be struggling to explain to me how a woman can manage to punch herself in the face and steal her own possessions. For the purposes of balance I went over to his blog to see what he had to say for himself, what did I find? No explanation of the events of the evening, which he described would be 'adding to the drama', but he did take the time to question her sanity, call her a liar, and suggest she has a mental disorder, rather than mentioning that he went to her room, he merely describes her as someone he just happened to be at the same conference as. On reading her recollection of the events of the evening they seem sensible straight forward and level headed, his blog post seems ranty, unhinged and smarmy. But to be honest I'm not sure why slashdot's first response is to take his word over hers especially when he has yet to actually give his word, you might want to seriously question why this is, you might discover something about yourself that you need to address. Sometimes people we thought we knew, turn out to be bad people, yes it's difficult, yes it's unnerving, but perhaps you should man up and face it, because when revelations of other incidents surface and they have already started to, you're going to feel pretty shitty that you were arguing pathetic pseudo legal points about how we can never know who did what to whom.
I claim to know as little as you do about the situation.
However, I can guess that she didnt file a report with the police because the rape did not occur. If that happened, then there would be more reason for her to stay in Poland for a long time and remain as a witness. Also, she probably recognizes that she does not have enough evidence to guarantee a conviction for assual.
But its interesting to note that she is the only one publicly stating how injuries occurred to both of them and a story of what occurred in the room and apparently the only one who contacted the police. You would think if some girl at a conference clocked you in the head with a mug without good reason and hard enough to make you bleed, that the first think you would do is contact the police.
She has stated publicly enough for this man to charge her with liable. So the ball is in his court. I certainly wouldnt stand for someone accussing me of attempted rape. But to do this, he would need to prove that what she claims happened did not happen. Both parties would have to state the events of the night under oath. Something one of the parties does not want to do... because one of them is lying and could be found out.
So in the court of public opinion, it certainly doesnt look good for him. She has stated enough for him to bring her to court, and yet he only says "she wants attention". And it appears he will do nothing to defend his good name.
I know nothing about either of them. But my opinion is: she is telling the truth and he is behaving as if she is too.
Leaving aside that "beauty is in the eye of the beholder", here are some rape reports that might interest you:
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57511997-504083/elderly-woman-raped-and-mugged-in-central-park-in-broad-daylight-nypd-says/
http://www.wesh.com/news/central-florida/orange-county/Police-Man-raped-82-year-old-woman-at-knifepoint/-/12978032/19838444/-/f5q5ybz/-/index.html
http://www.foxlexington.com/newsroom/top-stories/videos/elderly-woman-robbed-raped-home-invasion-2435.shtml
Ah, that's enough for me; you can find lots more if you want just like I did, with Google.
It amazes me that when we find a bad guy in some group it's a shock? Bad guys are everywhere. Democrats, Republicans, cops, even cleaning crews, church deacons. You name it.
More evidence needs to be shown before you can pick a side. So far the one who posted on her blog first seems to have won.
I would say, don't ever take anything *anyone* says at face value. Let's not be sexist. Yes, men and women have slightly different brains and thus act in slightly different ways on average, and yes, it is also sadly true that in some circumstances, the law is more likely to side with a woman than a man regardless of who's actually telling the truth. Still, when it comes to rape, yes, there are a good number of piece-of-shit girls claiming falsely to have been raped for their own purposes... but there are also a good number of actual piece-of-shit guys who've raped people, too. So by all means do get facts and evidence, that's what the legal system should be (and *generally* is) about. But your first sentence kind of rubs me the wrong way.
polish courts have set sometimes quite big limits of what you can do in self defense
Not just Polish courts, most courts have much bigger limits on self defense than what people realize. For example, in most US states, if you have the option to run or otherwise escape, then you must. If the attacker stops attacking even briefly or becomes incapacitated, then you must stop counter attacking. If you don't, then you become the attacker and they have a right to defend themselves.
Most people's notion of self defense is more akin to an action movie scene than what is actually legally permitted.
You're assuming the statistics come from the police.
Please help metamoderate.
... but are there male slashdot participants hear definding/supporting the ongoing violence against women? Here a woman has publicly denounced a violent act and not shrunk/hidden away from reporting, and doing in a way to shine a light on what continues to be a very real fear for women: violent rape by men. I find it sad that so many "professionals" in this group continue to mindlessly fall in line with the same norms that allowed generations before us to treat women as less than equals sexually. If we, as the "educated" half of America continue to unconsciously follow this path, nothing will ever really change.... My apologies in advanced for the soapbox, but come on "guys"... if we change, as Gandhi said,the world will change......