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Immigration Bill Passes the Senate, Includes More H-1B Visas
An anonymous reader writes "While the landmark immigration bill (full text PDF), which recently passed the U.S. Senate, is being hailed as bringing crucial reforms that will vastly improve the state of immigration in this country, there is a provision in it that is seeing relatively little discussion: section 4101, a 'market-based' increase in the amount of H-1B visas for skilled workers. 'The pitched arguments of both sides, which are likely to resurface in the House when it takes up its version of an immigration overhaul, cloud a complicated reality. There is little empirical evidence to suggest that foreign engineers displace American engineers as a whole. If anything, one recent study suggests, the growth of immigrant workers in American companies helps younger American technical workers — more of them are hired and at higher-paying jobs — but has no noticeable consequences, good or bad, on older workers.'"
Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics.
and they are not loaded down student loands
> If anything, one recent study suggests, the growth of immigrant workers in American companies helps younger American technical workers
Of course. Isn't that a basic law of economic theory? As the supply of labor increases so do salaries.
I have some doubts.
In a band? Use WheresTheGig for free.
Take HR out of the loop as well some of staffing firms that seem to only do keywords or say take down a list of things that IT does even if it's a one off or just helping out and put it on the need 5 years list.
The increase of H1B visa has absolutely.... affected pay rates. Which in itself....affects jobs.
Why pay an American ENG more than what you will pay a H1B visa?
It's all about profits and does affect american jobs. Salary surveys should prove that point, given the fact we are getting paid less to do more....
What is different now...versus 5 years ago...more h1B visas every year...the same skills are still required....you're just worth less in america and there is also inflation.
All the politicians have vested interests in increasing the H1B visa's....they get more $$$ in profits/kickback....while existing american's lose opportunities...and jobs to feed their family with.
How can increasing the amount of immigrant workers ACTUALLY solve the job crisis with AMERICANS?
Increasing the immigrant workers....only allows companies to pay them less...and lay existing older employee off...who currently make more the h1B visas
There is little empirical evidence to suggest that foreign engineers displace American engineers as a whole.
Written by someone that obviously has never worked in the tech industry.
Fact: H1-Bs are abused to artificially suppress wages in sponsoring countries. There's nothing inherently wrong with having a program to help immigration, but the way it has been implemented, enforced, and maintained is causing serious harm to the U.S. economy.
If you need citations for this, you're at least as clueless as the bought and paid for government approving expansion of this legitimized abuse.
There is little empirical evidence to suggest that foreign engineers displace American engineers as a whole.
This is blatant propaganda.
If you use the word "empirical" in a sentence for no reason, or start a sentence with "actually" you are a dickbag.
Thank you.
no apparent impact on older workers, as I've been out of a job for over 8 months. somebody needs to get punched in the mouth.
need any degree
degree that is only called that that way at 1 or 2 schools
need very off topic stuff / skills
as an starting point.
Did the Senate pass another bill that would discriminate against specific countries where many people desperately want to come from, particularly Mexico and China?
..of course when the GOP tried to end this program, the Democrats called the Republicans trying to end it racists.
The "Diversity Visa Program" passed in 1990 does exactly that, as it forbids people from particular countries from qualifying for 50000 Visa's annually.
Notice how nobody turned around and called the Democrats racist for supporting the obviously racist program.. but hey.. its got "diversity" in the name.. and diversity is good, even if you have to discriminate based on shit like skin color.
"His name was James Damore."
have an H-1B min wage and or open job switching aka the (worker owns the H-1B).
The min wage can be like 50k+ forced overtime pay maybe at the 100k+ level no forced OT pay.
Some H-1B are abused with low pay and or lots of foreced OT.
Well I, for one, am glad that the Senate has finally agreed on a solution to our immigration problem and that it includes more skilled foreign labor. We really need people to fill all of these available jobs!
Since that's taken care of, maybe they can focus on fixing the economy, and creating jobs for all of the unemployed?
Ah, if there's a shortage of skilled workers requiring an increase in H-1Bs, we must be seeing huge increases in salaries to fill all the openings.
There is no evidence that there is a general "shortage" of tech workers either. Sure, there are spot shortages, but those are necessary to give the flooded niches room to move. If you plug the spot shortages with "guest" workers, then citizens in flooded niches can't get them.
Table-ized A.I.
Boner, er, I mean Boehner has already declared that he won't introduce the bill in the House.
Combine that with the 33 seat advantage that Repubs have... not gonna happen.
An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
There is little empirical evidence to suggest that foreign engineers displace American engineers as a whole.
Apparently the author is unfamiliar with Internet search engines and/or the name Norman Matloff. You'll find plenty of empirical evidence.
If anything, one recent study suggests, the growth of immigrant workers in American companies helps younger American technical workers — more of them are hired and at higher-paying jobs — but has no noticeable consequences, good or bad, on older workers.
Would the author care to mention the name of the study, who it was performed by, or even (*gasp*) provide a link? Otherwise a reference to "one recent study" has no credibility whatsoever.
If you're going to shove a line of bull at people, at least have the respect to make it seem a little credible. Propaganda like this is just plain insulting. I'd rather have somebody be honest enough to say "Screw you, the tech billionaires won, courtesy of the propaganda they pay for and the bribes they give their sycophants in congress. If you don't like it you can eat sh*t."
There are qualified people looking for work that are ignored, because of age or length of time unemployed. There are plenty of people out in the employment pool, but this is a way to keep salaries down and not to do any spending on training. Where has all the spending for training gone? No company is willing to invest time and money into existing employees. Plenty of recruiters have told me that companies want a 20 out of 20 in their wish list.
Like the HR person after confirming more than five years of experience with C# asking if I have any .net experience...
Headline says it all.
H1B visas mean importing talent that is willing to work for rates at or below the going market rate, which is already artificially depressed do to the number of current H1B visa's in the USA today.
Putting more water in the boat is not the proper way to bail.
Of course salaries increase when immigration increase - in their countries of origin...
Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
This is about greed and slave labor. Anyone who claims otherwise is a liar.
And they aren't displacing Americans because no one is hiring Americans in the first fucking place.
They took our JOOOOBBBBBBSSSSSSSS!
Back to the pile!
How's that BA in English working out for you?
You tell 'em!
There's only 3 degrees universities should offer:
1.Engineering - ONLY Electrical, chemical and petroleum.
2. Computer science.
3. Nursing.
And there's only 3 universities worth going to: Harvard, Yale and MIT. Everyone else should just close down.
Other than that, college is just a waste of time and money.
We need a society of technologists and people to clean the bedpans of the old people.
For all the stupid people who couldn't get into those programs, well, there's always Walmart. And if you speak Spanish, McDonalds.
The World needs ditch diggers too, ya know!
The reason it shouldn't pass is it rewards those who broke the rules instead of those who actually try to follow the process. I'm not saying we shouldn't have immigration, but I don't see how rewarding someone for bad behavior won't increase the amount of it. This isn't the first time the "amnesty" idea has come up and each time I was going to address the issue of illegal immigration. And each time, it just makes it worse.
Call your congressperson, not email but phone, and tell them to junk this when it comes to the House.
people that companies REALLY want to hire talk to the group who needs the help, THEN they get sent to HR for a nice rubber stamp. HR is for the cattle.
any House GOP member voting for this abortion is going to get skewered
The number of CS undergraduates closely mirrors the demand for workers. Hiring H1-Bs just reduces the number of young Americans who study CS. In the end, it doesn't really effect people already working in the field.
Democracy Now! - your daily, uncensored, corporate-free
America is a nation built by immigrants.
If you had any understanding of what's being discussed here, you'd know that people are complaining about guest worker programs, not immigration programs.
I guess Canada will lead the way
Lead the way in what, Ph.D.'s driving cabs?
America devolves into a cesspool of stupid white inbreds
News flash: America is not a "white" country. The fastest growing "racial" group is Hispanics. Even without any immigration it won't be long before "white" people are not a majority in this country, and anybody with half a brain doesn't give a damn one way or the other.
I also find this obsession with artificial constructs like "race" to be offensive. Roll back the effects of Bacon's Rebellion. The whole concept of race was always a bunch of bull used in a divide and conquer strategy to keep the peasants from revolting. It has no other significance or meaning.
CS is not IT and going to school for Computer science will give you skill gaps.
It has lot's of hands on stuff that is a good fit for an apprenticeships.
The U.S. government runs a lottery that gives out an additional 50,000 VISA's per year beyond the level playing field of normal immigration, but people from Mexico arent allowed to win any of them, and you are there claiming its not racist by any stretch of the imagination?
Really?
What fucking distortion field do you live in?
He's probably living in the distortion field perpetuated by both the CIA World Fact Book and Wikipedia, in which it is well known that Mexico isn't comprised of a single race any more than Los Angeles is comprised of a single race, thus making it impossible to discriminate against a particular, single race by discriminating against all of Mexico.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_people#Today
Or maybe it was the one where, under NAFTA, there's already an economic agreement in place for non-professional workers, and professional workers get TN-1 visa rather than H-1B visa?
http://travel.state.gov/visa/temp/types/types_1274.html
You know what? Those TN-1 visas discriminate against Europeans, who are require to return to their own countries after a period of time, whereas a TN-1 can be renewed again and again, indefinitely, without ever actually leaving the US. Those bastards! Favoring Mexico and Canada over Germany and New Zealand!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TN_status
Uh huh. You sir are a super-genius. By the way, how are all the native Canadian people treating you up there?
Do you know what party in the US pushed the civil rights act to protect minority rights? I won't tell you and spoil your day.
Oh, get yourself some Browndo, it's got electrolytes.
CS is not IT and going to school for Computer science will give you skill gaps.
It has lot's of hands on stuff that is a good fit for an apprenticeships.
Ok, I posed the GP and it was meant to be satire.
You're right, Actually, back in the old days, college WASN'T for career training. It was for an education to better and refine oneself.
Engineer? You apprenticed or went to a TRADE school because engineering is a trade.
So is medicine.
Law? Read about the founding fathers. If they went to college, they would get some liberal arts degree and then apprentice with a lawyer and "read law" - no law school. See. Bio of John Q. Adams.
CS? I'm on the fence on that one. On one hand it's a branch of math on the other, let's face it, it's almost an engineering discipline - apprenticeship career.
Business school? Please! Apprentice.
And also, our colleges and universities have become High School prt 2.
Freshman English?! WTF is that? That shit should have been taught in high school! Same for Bio, Chem, Physics I&II.
It's a symptom of how our schools have failed and how corporate America has turned our education system into one big trade school to benefit them at tax payer's cost.
Accenture, for example, announced a sharply downward revised forecast!
you know what this means right?
Lay off even more US 'employees'. WHY? because we had to lower our forecast, we are in bad shape, boo hoo....
Why worry!? H1 limit has increased, we can get their replacements from India/Philippines/ whatnot..!
So the effects are already being felt!!
If anything, one recent study suggests, the growth of immigrant workers in American companies helps younger American technical workers — more of them are hired and at higher-paying jobs — but has no noticeable consequences, good or bad, on older workers.'"
Those same people seem to think that NAFTA really helps American's as well, but our economy in shambles for well over a decade seems to prove them wrong. And no, I will not bend logic to suit their purposes as they do to suit themselves.
Providing lower paying jobs for non citizens while taking away jobs from US Citizens does not increase pay for US Citizens. The fact is that it reduces US jobs and harms the economy. The Henry Ford model was right and we have Detroit and Flint's economy and collapses to show he was correct. These people are just idiots, and it's too bad that so many suckers actually believe their bullspit.
-The wise argue that there are few absolutes, the fool argues that there are no probabilities.
Too bad there aren't even more (unlimited) H1-Bs.
Then all the left wing techies who are all happy and gang-ho about a bunch of low-skilled immigrants flooding USA (because they don't hurt their precious white collar jobs) would suddenly realize that Yes, People Get Hurt when you import a bunch of cheap workforce in a bad economy.
"If anything, one recent study suggests, the growth of immigrant workers in American companies helps younger American technical workers"
Not only do I find that claim dubious, it's completely beside the point. At least one recent study discussed here on Slashdot, possibly more, said THEIR IS NO SHORTAGE of qualified technical workers in the United States. Some corporations just want more H1-Bs because they're cheaper.
H1Bs eliminate jobs in the US.
The issue is "the US" is being lead by corporation figure heads(false or real) who are not interested in american jobs...american workers...or ANY employee/contractor/ICE rights, they are interested in profits.
Tell me how H1B visa create american jobs?
The only thing that would prevent this from NOT happening is to restrict H1B visa's...instead of increasing them.
This isn't even so much about "individual" needs of individuals. This is about the health of a nation's economy. People who understand that money is more about flow than about hoarding (accumulating wealth) also understand that when people are not working and are not making enough money, they aren't spending money. This causes a reactive affect which radiates out everywhere in every direction.
Now we're opening the doors even wider to bring in more people which will put more locals out of work, raising unemployment and underemployment and those people reacting with the rest of the economy. Additionally, this brings a much larger number of people who will require social/government programs to survive.
This feels "intentional" and if feels planned. But one part isn't planned -- it's corporate greed and short-sightedness. They have no sense of responsibiity for what they are doing to the economy -- an economy in which those very businesses cannot exist for long without. That's a kind of given natural law. The real decision makers, the same ones who spend orders of magnitude more money than they collect in taxes on weapons we don't need, have decided they would rather help a small few at the expense of the nation's economy.
Meanwhile? The people who are the most affected? They're bitching about what's on "reality TV" and the news of the latest xbox. Sheeple.
It can't be stopped because not enough people are going to actually do anything about it. A person writes "shame on [the banks]" in chalk and getting charged with a crime that could end up with years in prison. We're in a real problem situation and the leadership of the country is unable to stop the train wreck that is happening all around us.
Have a nice weekend.
answer: read my post again.
At least they didn't ask you for 10 years of hands on .NET experience in 2005....
that exist for the sole purpose of teaching businesses how to do an end run around every rule regarding hiring H1-Bs.
Saying "I'd be fine with a lift on the H-1B visa limits if it required them to actually demonstrate that they had made real efforts to hire Americans first." is pointless. It's not just wishful thinking, its fundamentally ignoring the purpose of the system...
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That's not what happens. It's just wishful thinking. Outsourcing isn't being brought back on shore because of communication problems, it's because a few of the outsourcing firms got greedy and cut corners a little too thin. They'll learn.
Plus code written by slaves is cheap. So Cheap I can throw out your old code and start from scratch and still come out ahead. The last piece to the puzzle is to remember that for the top 1% who are pushing these things through they own a piece of just about every major company. So if company A overcharges company B the 1% still make gobs of money.
And Managing a Mickey D's is incredibly hard. First it's brutally difficult work. 50 to 60 hours a week. Next, you're constantly jockeying to keep your employees because you don't pay them enough to have anything near a stable lifestyle (and no, they're not all kids. That workforce is graying too).
Basically, the world doesn't work the way you think it does. I'd be OK if you were only hurting yourself, but when you go and vote you hurt me too...
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
is because we started letting private businesses run schools for profit. You want to curb that? Turn them back into real public institutions instead of quasi-private ones where the costs are paid by you and me and the profits go to 1%.
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
you're too lazy to google.
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
If they still don't make it easier for people who go there LEGALLY to work to eventually get a green card (no tons of money, no company sponsorship or getting married, no years of waiting) then fuck it, it still isn't worth going there to work. I worked there for six years and moved back to Canada because it would have taken forever to get a green card and being indentured to a company for the duration. Fuck that. If they can give green cards to illegal immigrants and not those there legally, fuck them.
Most countries will give you a landed immigrant status (same as a green card) if you work there LEGALLY more than a set time (usually four or five years), keep your nose clean, and don't mooch off the government for anything. If that isn't the case, even though I get recruiters calling me from there regularly because of my good reputation in the city I worked in, I won't go back there to work ever. The odd vacation maybe but that's it. Not worth the stress of worrying about having to relocate your family out of the country within a month if the contract ends suddenly. Nor the stress of companies feeling like the fuck you because they think you are captive for the same reason. A big three letter telecom convinced me of all this because of the last statement.
-- I ignore anonymous replies to my comments and postings.
There is little empirical evidence to suggest that foreign engineers displace American engineers as a whole.
If this were true, they'd be given green cards instead H1B. With H1B, they are indentured servants. Getting fired means getting deported for them. Stop forcing Americans to compete with indentured servants in technology and then you'll see more Americans going into those fields. Even if you accept that they don't compete on salary, they still compete on work conditions.
Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
And in other news, the bill has been declared DOA on arrival at the House of Representatives, where the Speaker of the House has announced that they intend to do their own thing, perhaps later this year, or possibly next year where a bill can be used as fodder for the 2014 campaigns.
Meh.
That's the number of actual H1-B workers in this country. E.g. take the legal limit and multiply it by 3. We don't send them home when their Visas expire, so lots of them stay. The estimates are around 3 times the limit. 180,000 today. Once we raise the limit to 300,000 we'll have a million new tech workers hitting the economy within 3 years. Forget the tech economy, that'll depress _everyone's_ wages.
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interesting to see that Senate is still talking about H-1B visa. I thought slashdot ran an article about a month ago regarding a similar issue.
given the fact you state... ...may mean you have an H1B? Or do you profit from hiring them :)
"This is why your government is pushing for this, so stop being paranoid."
This shows a poor understanding of the problem.
The issue is that we have >7.5% unemployment and it's worse if you consider other factors like labor force participation, number of people on food stamps, underemployment and wages have remained flat. It also has been said that the student loan business might be the next bubble that pops.
Because of the raw data, why do we need to let millions of more people into the country, while we already have millions of people on the sidelines ready to work that are already here? It is one thing to let immigration happen when we are at full employment.
Many industries have a lobbying group:
1) Doctors have the American Medical Association
2) Teachers have the National Education Association
3) Realtors have the National Association of Realtors
4) Senior citizens have the AARP
And so on and so forth.
The employing companies certainly are represented in Washington DC. Which is why we get the system we have. There's the IEEE which gave a whopping 70-80 thousand dollars a year to politicians. The ACM - I couldn't even find them as a lobbying organization at all.
We can whine about it. But tech workers need a lobbying organization. Politicians do what's in their own personal best interests. And you can't expect them to vote against big donors. They won't even talk to you if you're not a sizable contributor or don't have some block of votes to present to them.
Disclaimer: I am an Indian, completed my MS in CS a year back, been working at a small e-commerce firm named after a large river for over a year now.
There is a lot of hate that seems to be directed at companies hiring H-1Bs at a much lower than average salary rate. This hate is well deserved, it is nothing but exploitation. On the flip side, did you ever think about what makes people agree to those "lower" salaries? The Indian Rupee's exchange rate is at a historical low. That is the downside of having an artificially strong dollar (which gives you some other benefits, but hey, those benefits might not affect you, so who cares, right?)
There also seems to be a lot of hate directed at Facebook and Microsoft. You people are definitely trolling. Most of the top ten software firms start the green card and naturalization process ASAP when you join. MS is specially regarded for this. And most of the H-1Bs they hire are students who came here for undergrad or (more likely) grad school. So hate on Facebook as much as you want, just not in this.
The problem is that, all the IT firms who "import" cheap labor, coagulate the H-1B system. So those who would actually gain from this (and America would also gain from them) essentially go into a lottery for the H-1B slots. These are usually your giant IT (big difference when it comes to software and IT, especially with relation to job market in India) firms like Accenture.
I have not read the full bill yet, saving that for the weekend. But if it has some provision to split these two types of H-1Bs, this would be a big win-win.
P.S. America does really not have enough Electrical, Mechanical and Civil (maybe more disciplines, but these are the ones I have close friends in) engineers. Please do not conflate software with tech.
HR is for the cattle.
Indeed. Most of our people were hired either through referrals, or through our internship program. Less than 10% were hired by submitting a resume to HR. Instead of shotgunning resumes, you should be using your network. If you don't have a network, you need to start building one: go to meetups, volunteer for a FOSS project, etc.
The real leverage point is the 65 hour work week ("we must deliver on time!"). High tech workers are "salaried professionals" under labor law and so are exempt from being paid overtime. H-1B holders work the long weeks without complaint because they are not at liberty to change employers; American workers would seek new employment when continually abused. Even if paid prevailing wage (based on 40-hour equivalent salary), the H-1B holders are relatively less expensive due to the number of hours they work without additional compensation. One solution would be to have all H-1Bs job shop directly from the Department of Labor. They should be non-exempt and able to change employers at will via the job shop office at the DoL.
Here's how you know you're a moron:
The H-1B visa lasts for 3 or 6 years. And you have to leave the country when it's done.
Your story might make sense if it was a permanent visa. But it's not.
Think about it.
If American engineers are good enough, why import anyone?
If they're not good enough, what are they saying -- foreign engineers are better? For what reason?
The point is that other nations have less developed economies and so it's cheaper to import these people and then drop them when they hit 40.
Either way however, an American job is displaced and you're worth less as a result.
Futurist Traditionalism
H1Bs are not good for the US, they are good for a segment of the US population at least in the short term, those who own companies. H1Bs are used because they're cheaper and work longer hours and hence cut my company's overheads. I should no longer have to pay the overheads associated with training them so I pay fewer taxes to support training institutions such as Universities as most are trained overseas anyway. It really depends upon your perspective.
H1-B visa is a dual-intent visa - you're allowed to use it as a path to residency.
It confuses me; I swear the people that post all this anti-H1-B crap are just the dregs who didn't try hard enough to get hired or something.
I work in a company that takes on lots of H1-Bs. They take on even more locals. Hell they take on anyone qualified they can find because there isn't enough and I can tell you that the H1-Bs are paid on par or better than the local hires.
I wouldn't want to have to actually GET a job, with my experience and certifications....
I would much rather lose my house and so on since I can't get a frigging JOB.
Posted by one of the older, experienced, certified tech workers who is, in fact, willing to work for somewhat less than "top dollar."
I just need a damn job.
And McDonald's isn't hiring (and seems about the only other option around here.)
HR folks have always been this clueless. Years ago I was applying for a job as a VMS system manager and they wanted to know if I knew anything about DCL. About on par with the recent job ads I've seen for Sr. UNIX administrators that need to know shell.
CUR ALLOC 20195.....5804M
.... to have their own countries.
Don't think so? Please explain why.
Just imagine- if white people had their OWN countries, and all the insane whites who actually want to live as a white minority surrounded by hate-filled non-whites were free to do so - in non-white countries, none of these problems would be occurring. No TSA, because no muslims, no war in Iraq, because no Jews running your Congress for you. Oh no! We can't make the poor Jews LIVE AMONG THEIR OWN KIND, that would be just awful, wouldn't it. LOL.
This is why your government is pushing for this, so stop being paranoid.
Our government is pushing for this because our corporations (which control our government) are pushing for this, because it will help them make money. It wouldn't help them make money unless they could pay the employees less, because there's no shortage of potential employees who are already citizens, unless you refuse to pay them decently. Who needs to be paranoid? It's not a secret that legislation is written and then sponsored (economically) by corporations in the USA.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
There is no shortage of qualified technical workers in the US who are unwilling to relocate to where the jobs are. Meanwhile, in the ares where there are jobs, I have 10 open recs right now and haven't been able to find anyone even remotely qualified. The budget for fiscal '14 hasn't been finalized, but I'll probably have another 6 heads in Q1. Which is all just on paper anyways because I doubt I'll find more than 2-3 qualified candidates and I'll be lucky to have 1-2 accept our offer. I've got numerous friends at other companies who are experiencing the same thing. If you can't get hired in San Francisco right now you either aren't qualified, have wildly outlandish salary demands (moderately outlandish salary demands are considered reasonable these days) or simply don't know how to look for jobs.
Companies want H1-Bs because they don't have an attachment to any geographical area and are willing to move to where the jobs are. To anyone that's bitching about H1-Bs or lack of jobs...consider moving to the bay area...it costs a shit ton to live here, but you'll get paid a shit ton plus to work here.
they have no individual initiative
they do just fine when you give them perfectly detailed requirements but they will not do a single smidgeon of work outside of their specific field of proficiency
this is a huge issue when a problem occurs and you dont know which part of the system isn't working, and the subcontinentals refuse make any effort to test their own code before everyone else spends the resources to isolate the problems
and as a software vendor when I have to deal with an indian or paki "technical leads" they refuse to make a basic effort of reading a straightforward API document, intead they expect a continuous stream of "examples" in escalating levels of specificity and should you push back they immediately complain to their manager that you aren't being cooperative
also they are fine to communicate over email but gods help you if you have to be in on a conference call with them, you can't undertand a damn thing they say
and if you are stuck working next to them they sweat curry and stink up the whole room, and depending on how FOB they are that might be a good thing because it masks their irregularly bathing body odor
There is no shortage of qualified technical workers in the US who are unwilling to relocate to where the jobs are. Meanwhile, in the ares where there are jobs, I have 10 open recs right now and haven't been able to find anyone even remotely qualified. The budget for fiscal '14 hasn't been finalized, but I'll probably have another 6 heads in Q1. Which is all just on paper anyways because I doubt I'll find more than 2-3 qualified candidates and I'll be lucky to have 1-2 accept our offer. I've got numerous friends at other companies who are experiencing the same thing. If you can't get hired in San Francisco right now you either aren't qualified, have wildly outlandish salary demands (moderately outlandish salary demands are considered reasonable these days) or simply don't know how to look for jobs.
Companies want H1-Bs because they don't have an attachment to any geographical area and are willing to move to where the jobs are. To anyone that's bitching about H1-Bs or lack of jobs...consider moving to the bay area...it costs a shit ton to live here, but you'll get paid a shit ton plus to work here.
Move your HQ a few hundred miles up to Portland and you'll find no trouble filling those spots. People don't always mind relocating, but they want to move somewhere that they can one day buy a house, and that is not the case in the bay area.
A long time ago, I worked in an immigration law firm. It is a minor art form to write the adverts you need to run to justify a foreign hire. You write them so only your proposed applicant can pass. If you see a want ad that is highly specific and almost impossible, you can bet it is a dummy ad so that an employer can justify to INS that "there is no one who fits my job description". Oh, and yes, as nice as individuals may be, the employer does OWN the foreign hire. You tech guys just got royally done by Congress. Sorry. The same folks who thought it a great idea to do fabrication off shore also think importing the low wage scale economy here is a good idea.
What skills do those millions have? Presumably not the ones that are in high demand.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
The justification for H1-Bs always sounds like lying with statistics... No, you're not having a harder time finding a job, the wages are just stuck where they were a decade ago, and despite the huge industry growth, there aren't any more jobs available than before.
And though slightly different than H1-Bs:
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
Why does congress hate my country so?
At least the money i spent on my Spanish lessons wasn't wasted!
Here's a look at the numbers:
The current H-1B cap is 65,000. However, this is deceiving as it's a multi-year visa with numerous exemptions. Thus actual number of H-1Bs working in the US is ~700,000.
The Senate legislation TRIPLES the cap to 180,000 which would yield ~1.9 million H-1B workers in the US. There's an escalating cap tied to visa requests and 4.5% unemployment -- triple full employment and including only layoffs within 3 months. Corporations no longer have requirements to consider citizens and have free rein to fill US jobs directly overseas.
As a bonus, spouses of H-1Bs automatically qualify for a work visa not counted in the cap. Foreign tech couples will soon be in high demand. But wait, there's more.
Then the new E-4/5 visa was added. This H-1B-style visa extends an additional 155,000 annual work visas to countries with free trade agreements. This alone is over twice the current H-1B program.
The Senate also awarded unlimited green cards to foreign STEM graduates with advanced degrees accepting US jobs. Citizens can expect escalation of educational costs and children crowded out of school under demand by the world elite.
As a final bonus, corporations are exempted from health insurance on visa workers placing $3,000 penalty on citizens already disadvantaged by corporate cost for worker compensation, unemployment insurance, severance and retirements, plus higher US costs for education.
The number of foreign visas now approaches the size of the entire US job market at 4.5 million. There is no way to view this other than as a COMPLETE AND UTTER BETRAYAL of this nation and citizens.
You can come here and take our money and others' jobs just as long as you've giving us tax money, but you just plain can't live here. No hard feelings.
In many large places HR have far too much power in office politics and insist that everyone plays by their rules. The answer is to go to a place small enough that HR has less power than the department head that wants to hire people (and CAN ask for a rubber stamp), or start collecting those keywords.
If something costs more than the market will pay and nobody will supply it at a fair market rate there is, by definition, a shortage.
Paying taxes to buy civilization is like paying a hooker to buy love.
I work in a niche technology field. There are only about 3000 engineers worldwide in this field, and of those maybe only a few hundred have several years of operational experience (which is a major issue, as minor screw-ups in operation can cost $100,000 or more). Pretty much all the qualified American engineers are in a job already.
I know several folks in the industry who came to the US from other countries (mainly Europe) on H1-B. Also some of those folks got messed up in the bureaucracy and then had to spend less productive time outside the US while the government got its act together.
You underestimate the power of the dark side.
If it doesn't pass the house, the bill will be stripped of everything except the H-1B increases, and then passed separately, or another bill containg just the H-1B increases will be written and passed separately. The whole point of a comprehensive immigration bill was to "hide" the H-1B increase within it. If the bill fails because the republicans don't want 10 million democrats added to the voter rolls, they will just pass the H-1B increase.
I wrote a letter to Diane Feinstein to express my concerns, and the words in the response were carefully chosen to be soothing, and leave out several probems
with the bill (Hatch's modifications in particular). I've come to the concusion that the fhe Federal government is broken. We need a new con-con or an article V convention to fix it so that corporations can't control the operation of the federal government.
I believe in FREE SOFTWARE and FREE MOVEMENT OF LABOR!
There's no point ignoring what's already happened. You've got a huge shadow economy of "illegal" workers and keeping it in the shadows doesn't help your country. They are there and there are not enough jails to put them in (not that such a thing would be anything other than a stupid and expensive idea) so why have a law that a country has no intention to enforce on the books at all? It's not a "reward", it is instead just a consequence of deciding to stop a pointless effort to endlessly push shit uphill.
You understand nothing about free markets. "Fair market rate" is meaningless. If you don't see an increase in prices, then there is no shortage.
America does NOT need more STEM immigrants! Want to see some good data?
Some of the information presented in the following links will shock most Americans, because American corporate leaders don't want us to know the truth, and they are paying off policy makers with contributions to keep the truth from us. Bill Gates, John Chambers, Eric Schmidt, and many, many others - including the principals of the most prominent immigration law firms, who profit from this outrage, are lying through their teeth. There is NO shortage of STEM workers in the US!!
The H-1B fiasco has cost Americans **$10TRILLION** dollars, since 1975. For anyone who wants to know the truth, read on.
One of the most respected technology pundits in Silicon Valley:
http://www.cringely.com/2012/10/23/what-americans-dont-know-about-h-1b-visas-could-hurt-us-all/
Watch this attorney and his consultants teach corporations how to manipulate the law to replace qualified American workers:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCbFEgFajGU
Here's more abuse of the L-1 Visa (H1-B's are only the tip of the iceberg
http://economyincrisis.org/content/l-visa-programs-brimming-abuses
Professor Norman Matloff's extremely well documented studies:
http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/h1b.html
Also, little known is the tactic of creating many different kinds of sub-visa categories to "fool the system". There are almost TWENTY different kinds of work visas. The whole thing is a sham and a lie, designed to drag down wages and keep from having to re-train Americans. Never thought I would see this day!
Come on down to Silicon Valley, where the bulk of tech recuiters are South Asian Indians who came here on H1-B's or one of more than a DOZEN other work visas. Come on down to see these recruiters "hire their own"!!
I have seen with my own eyes, completely UNQUALIFIED Indian engineers win out tech staffing jobs at places like Google because...you guessed it; they were Indian! They were networked to other Indians.
Go look at GE's new Global Software Center, where something like 90% of all new hires are from India! Are you telling me that that center could not find even 50% of its hires from qualified Americans who are here.
Also note that H1-Bs from India and China (especially) bring with them their 19th century attitudes about treating subordinates and women like garbage. I never thought I would see the day when AMERICAN intellectual capital was hollowed out to this degree, in the tech and a few other sectors.
What's even more infuriating is that this is a well-funded lobbying effort by the "do no harm" folks. They make me sick, as they are TRAITORS to the American worker.
This bill is a SHAM, and a LIE. Like I said, come out to Silicon Valley and talk to some unemployed tech workers. Ask them who the recruiters are. Ask them why the RFP's for positions like basic QA require a deep working knowledge of advanced code that will NEVER be used on the job. Go look at the resumes from Indian H1-B candidates who have (except for IIT) been to crap universities where teachers don't even show up, but these students "pass" their courses, get their "degrees", and put their "qualifications" out there in a way that meshes with bogus RFP's.
BIll Gates, and the rest of the phoney creeps who are asking for more immigrant STEM talent are TRAITORS to the American worker. Screw them!
1. "Oh no, salaries in technical fields are not high enough to attract enough people to major in them"
2. "Lets import lots of people from outside the country to lower wages of workers in technical fields"
3. goto 1
Another thing about this bill is that it would - for the first time - even as STEM-based H1-B quotas would increase, permit the spouses of H1-Bs to almost immediately go to work in the US. Are you kidding me? In this economy? I can't believe that this part of the immigration bill has been allowed to see the light of day. It's a sham, and a bribed piece of legislation. Eric Schmidt, Bill Gates, and the rest of the liars who support this bill have made their billions on the backs of American tech workers, and now want to betray them. Those men and others like them should be called the traitors to American labor and liars that that they are!
A shame your business is now going to have to pay higher wages to attract talent instead of sending the Amistad for another pickup run.
Still have to leave the country for a time, even if you do use it towards residency.
like the guy who recently interviewed, knew only horridly broken english, and went on for 20 min over kickball?
worries!
The problem, as should be obvious from a line like that, is not location but reality or otherwise. Should I have been less subtle and just called you a liar instead? I'm not sure what sort of liar - whether you are pretending to have a clue and just making stuff up or it is deliberate and agenda driven, but either way reality does not match the line you are pushing. There's plenty of people willing to move anywhere that are having trouble finding work, and people advertising jobs in remote area are not having trouble finding people to fill them.
> THEIR IS NO SHORTAGE of qualified technical workers in the United States
> THEIR IS NO SHORTAGE
> THEIR
Yyyyyyyeah. They took jer jerb?
"The H-1B work visa is fundamentally about cheap, de facto indentured labor." - Dr. Norman Matloff http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/h1b.html
There are lot more details here: http://blog.mygcvisa.com/
Some corporations just want more H1-Bs because they're cheaper.
Same reason we have this lovely immigration reform bill, instead of just enforcing existing law to crack down on businesses that cause illegal immigration in the first place.
Americans should be concerned about the creeping Caste system in USA due to H1B/Immigrants from India.
Caste system is worse than terrorism. It's a hidden apartheid and a slow poison that will destroy your economy.
Google "Companies ruined or almost ruined by Indians".
http://pastebin.com/Uk7Y2dnZ
Americans should be concerned about the creeping Caste system in USA due to H1B/Immigrants from India.
Caste system is worse than terrorism.
It's a hidden apartheid and a slow poison that will destroy your economy.
Google "Companies ruined or almost ruined by Indians".
http://pastebin.com/Uk7Y2dnZ
But that's what we're arguing about is an increase in the price of labor above what the market will bare. Because there was a shortage of good US workers their price went up to the point it is above their value. So people are looking to be able to shop around and find a lower price.
Paying taxes to buy civilization is like paying a hooker to buy love.
The system is built around quotas by nation; which is idiotic. Mexico has a huge population and should get more slots open for legal immigration than some tiny nation.
Democracy Now! - uncensored, anti-establishment news
There is absolutey no empirical evidence that shows that American, and especially American college kids can't feel all the necessary high skilled, and low skilled jobs in this country. For some reason empolyers don't want to hire American College students, they want mindless, cheap slave labor in all capacities.
The goal is to obtain higher level engineers and PhD resources. But in reality the large Indian firms are given a green light to displace American workers. I have been to India. I have witnessed first hand on what's going on and some of these Indian companies have hired US Lobbyists to push our politicians. Block IT workers but allow PhD, Master degree candidates in. Not Infosys, TCS, etc. Scab labor, pure and simple.
Read the part of the bill that fines companies for hiring U.S. citizens over H-1B workers. More filthy liberal "social justice." I'm tired of being punished for being a U.S. citizen.