Slashdot Mirror
Edward Snowden Files For Political Asylum In Russia
vikingpower writes "The official Russian Press agency Interfax has the scoop: Edward Snowden asks for political asylum in Russia (Google Translate). Russia Today, however, denies the news. Is this part of a clever disinformation move by Snowden, who reportedly is still in the Moscow airport Sheremetyevo 2?"
The Washington Post is also reporting Snowden did apply for asylum in Russia. Snowden released a statement last night through Wikileaks, quoting: "For decades the United States of America has been one of the strongest defenders of the human right to seek asylum. Sadly, this right, laid out and voted for by the U.S. in Article 14 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, is now being rejected by the current government of my country. The Obama administration has now adopted the strategy of using citizenship as a weapon. Although I am convicted of nothing, it has unilaterally revoked my passport, leaving me a stateless person. Without any judicial order, the administration now seeks to stop me exercising a basic right. A right that belongs to everybody. The right to seek asylum."
and he is us.
I've learned that they're worthless, so I don't read AC comments anymore.
It has unilaterally revoked my passport, leaving me a stateless person.
Not quite. He is still a citizen of the United States and can contact the US Embassy for assistance to leave the country, though it would mean his surrender to the United States. If he publicly made that intent known, officials from the US Embassy in Russia could travel to the airport, use diplomatic powers to pass into where Snowden rests, issue him temporary travel documents to escort him out of the airport and to the embassy, and arrange for travel home.
He's not stateless, but I'm sure he likes to think of himself that way.
How I wish this was hard to believe.
According to the age, Snowden has withdrawn that request. Mr Snowden withdrew his Russian asylum request because of a demand that he stop harming US interests by leaking documents
There are shills on slashdot. Apparently, I'm one of them.
"Edward Snowden Files For Political Asylum In Russia"
That was yesterday's news, sorry. Today's news, is that he's not.
One can only wonder.. Asylum?, in Russia?? LMAO ROLF etc etc.
One of the worst countries regarding to human rights, freedom of press etc.
Having a passport canceled doesn't effect citizenship. Snowden's statement is rubbish on that point.
Prepared to issue one-entry travel document to Snowden: US
"We reject - you've heard Assange say earlier that he's sort of marooned in Russia. That's not true. We're prepared to issue one-entry travel document. He's still a US citizen. He still enjoys the rights of his US citizenship, which include the right to a free and fair trial for the crimes he's been accused of," the State Department spokesperson, Patrick Ventrell, told reporters at his daily news conference yesterday.
"We reject the notion that this is some sort of political prosecution. Indeed, it's not. These are serious crimes, serious violations of his obligations, and as somebody who had access to classified information, and so our position is that he needs to face a free and fair trial and not be a fugitive," Ventrell said.
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
The right to asylum has been under attack for quite a while now; this is hardly news.
I'm happy to be explained the difference between 1) seeking asylum fleeing politically-motivated charges, versus 2) fleeing criminal charges, albeit, for offences committed with a political motivation.
Americans will never defend their constitution, that has been proven for decades of abuses.
Land of the fat and LAZY.
The dream died years ago, I still have no idea why people still believe it is still a dream country.
Apparently he withdrew his asylum request after Putin asked him to stop leaking more secrets. Funny he would consider it in the first place knowing that Russians are likely much worst when it comes to surveillance of their own citizens. Can't see many nations wanting him at this time.
And using bad grammar while you're at it.
Snowden never said canceling a passport <em>affects</em> citizenship. He did say, however, that the US government was using his citizenship as a weapon.
Think, then post.
This news is a day late. Since this happened Putin told him he can't leak anything else if he wants to stay in Russia so he's withdrawn his request to Russia.
As for the US breaching article 14 I don't think it matters anymore, they've long thrown articles 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 11 and 12 out the window in the last decade and no one did anything so of course they'll try and get away with violating the rest despite being a signatory to the UDHR.
But in this case they're also now violating article 13, which states that:
"Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each State.
Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country."
Revoking Snowden's passport also violates this from what I can see as by removing his passport they're removing his right to travel and hence to leave Russia.
Or in other words the US has pretty much now completely thrown the de-facto document on basic levels of standards of human rights entirely out the window.
As each year goes on they're breaching a new article, when they do that how can they realistically preach to any other nation on human rights? How can they pretend to have the moral high ground next time a blind Chinese human rights activist turns up at their embassy and they claim they should be allowed to let him go to the US against China's will?
It's not. But it's big and powerful, and would put up a fight if the U.S. tried to extract him. Most first world countries wouldn't even dare protest.
NSA is not us. If NSA were us, Clapper wouldn't be lying to Congress.
FISA ruling wouldn't be hidden from us, especially the 2011 one saying its illegal.
This wouldn't have been done in secret and they wouldn't have to lie to us.
Snowden wouldn't have had to leak something that should/needs be public in a democracy anyway.
FTC and other government agencies wouldn't have to remind Corps there are laws in the land.
Google Yahoo etc. wouldn't be fighting secret orders in secret kangaroo courts.
Cheney wouldn't be smirking.
So no, it's them, no us. A fear-mongering faction in the NSA led by General Alexander that simply decided one day to capture all data and store all data, on everyone, and a lot of traitors to their countries who went along with it. /rant
http://tvnz.co.nz/world-news/edward-snowden-applies-asylum-in-norway-5484164
Millions of people do that every year, this particular refugee was just dumb enough to start attention whoring before he was in a safe haven.
... whatever
Abstractions... nothing more.... physical reality is only influenced by abstractions to the extent human action is connected to them. To understand this is to know its about excuses to use nothing more than brute force physically.
The Obama Adminastration is not a US governemnt but the government the founders wrote and warned us about when they wrote the Declaration of Independence. And they gave us instructions as to what to do about it. Recognizing its not only our right to do something about it but our Duty to.
So what does this do for Snowden? Plenty know, though the Obama Administration is in denial about it.
NSA template response #1435-33
http://wikileaks.org/Statement-from-Edward-Snowden-in.html?snow
Monday July 1, 21:40 UTC
One week ago I left Hong Kong after it became clear that my freedom and safety were under threat for revealing the truth. My continued liberty has been owed to the efforts of friends new and old, family, and others who I have never met and probably never will. I trusted them with my life and they returned that trust with a faith in me for which I will always be thankful.
On Thursday, President Obama declared before the world that he would not permit any diplomatic "wheeling and dealing" over my case. Yet now it is being reported that after promising not to do so, the President ordered his Vice President to pressure the leaders of nations from which I have requested protection to deny my asylum petitions.
This kind of deception from a world leader is not justice, and neither is the extralegal penalty of exile. These are the old, bad tools of political aggression. Their purpose is to frighten, not me, but those who would come after me.
For decades the United States of America has been one of the strongest defenders of the human right to seek asylum. Sadly, this right, laid out and voted for by the U.S. in Article 14 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, is now being rejected by the current government of my country. The Obama administration has now adopted the strategy of using citizenship as a weapon. Although I am convicted of nothing, it has unilaterally revoked my passport, leaving me a stateless person. Without any judicial order, the administration now seeks to stop me exercising a basic right. A right that belongs to everybody. The right to seek asylum.
In the end the Obama administration is not afraid of whistleblowers like me, Bradley Manning or Thomas Drake. We are stateless, imprisoned, or powerless. No, the Obama administration is afraid of you. It is afraid of an informed, angry public demanding the constitutional government it was promised Ã" and it should be.
I am unbowed in my convictions and impressed at the efforts taken by so many.
Edward Joseph Snowden Monday 1st July 2013
Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
Snowden has retracted his asylum application to Russia, on the ground that he does not want to jeopardize the state-to-state relationship between Russia and the USA
Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
If Snowden walked into the US Embassy in Moscow, they would issue him travel pass for a one way ticket back to the States in about 5 minutes. That he an international fugitive on the run probably has more to do with his reluctance.
... but NSA does represent the Americans !!
Whether you like it or not, if you are an American (which I am), NSA is part and parcel of the American government - and whatever NSA is doing (and whatever the Obama administration is doing right now) does represent ALL THE AMERICANS
I mean, look at what is happening in Egypt
The Egyptians who are tired of the non-performing Egyptian presidents are gathering in HUGE CROWD, demanding that muslim-brotherhood figurehead to step down
And about America ... ... do you see anything like that happening ?
Why not ?
What kind of message the Americans are telling the world ? ... that we, the Americans, are SATISFIED with what the Obama administration is doing ... that we, the Americans, agree with what NSA is doing ... that we, the Americans, do not mind our phones be tapped, do not mind that the big brother has invaded our privacy, do not mind at all, that our liberties are being violated
By doing nothing, that's THE MESSAGE the Americans are telling the world ... whether you like it, or not
Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
Sorry guys, I know you want to fight oppression, corporations, evil governments and what else, but level of cheese coming out of Assange and now Snowden is making me puke. Seriously, a stateless person? Passport is *document*, not nationality or citizenship. It is revoked when you have lost formal trust of country it has been issued by (regular procedure for accused runaways). Edward, you already invalidating anything you have said before (except factual leaked docs), because your intent is to speculate emotionally.
What he really thought will happen after his identification as the source? That everybody will jump out of joy when he will ask for political asylum? That he will have capability to travel after identifying himself? What is this with this childish behavior?
user@ubuntubox:~$ stfu This server is going down for shutdown NOW!
At least, he's not an Anonymous Coward, making such bold statements.
An international thriller unfolding day-by-day. A nerd on the run in exotic locations. Every morning there are dozens of fascinating stories in the news. Awesome!
If he wanted to blame someone, I'd blame the folks at Wikileaks who advised him to travel from Hong Kong to Russia in the first place. Apparently they told him they'd find him a place for Asylum and it seems they couldn't deliver.
Sorry, but part of civil disobedience is a willingness to suffer the consequences as just or unjust as they maybe. That's what sets people like Gandhi, Mandela and MLKjr apart from this guy. They took their stands and paid the price of their stands.
Some want to lift this guy up as some kind of hero. Others a criminal and traitor. I've held the position that he's both. At least until he begins giving up operational tradecraft information then I start to lean more towards criminal. It's one thing to bring to light what is going on in generalities.
Although I'm getting a laugh at the coming out of the EU being up and arms about our spying on them, especially the French. After all the DGSE is the only intelligence service I know of that publically publishes the fact that 25% of their budget is spent on industrial espionage to help French businesses.
At any rate, glad we can all be focused on this little side drama as opposed to the meat of the story: mainly the spying programs that the NSA have been engaged in. Funny how just a week later that's been pushed from the news headlines. If this wasn't enough to get people into the streets with pitchforks and willing to tar and feather the lot of them in DC I guess nothing will. It was a nice republic, too bad we couldn't keep it.
"The problem with socialism is eventually you run out of other people's money" - Thatcher.
I wonder if he has discovered the finer delicacies of airport eating, as seen in the Terminal, such as the venerable ketchup and mustard cracker sandwich.
We make these crazy lines between good guys and bad guys, with government these lines do not exist every government is capable of great good and evil at the same time.
Russia really doesn't care much about what he did. But they like putting the US in a position that they will need to beg and bargain to them.
Snowden was stupid enough to blab about what he found, he could have probably functioned a lot better by slowly feeding the American Conspiracy ideal by saying. I have worked for the CIA, I cannot tell you the details but you all should be really scared about your privacy. He probably could have gotten much further.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
This is now considered a right of US citizens, not a human right in general? I think I need to change my travel plans...
(What's a 'free' trial anyway? Is that 'free' as in 'beer', or some other type of 'free'?)
So he supposedly "martyred" himself for freedom, and yet has no qualms about living in countries that are much more oppressive than the US. Hypocrite, pure and simple.
He applied for Asylum in a few countries that are less oppressive than the US too.
But it's not a hypocritical act to sacrifice yourself so that others may have greater freedom.
No one in their right mind has faith in the US trial system or respects anything its government does.
Who wants to linger in jail, possibly for years, awaiting "trial"? You still get "punished" either way.
"This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
Snowden is a fucking mess, dumbass motherfucker...
Exactly. How stupid do you have to be to stand up against government tyranny? It's obvious that the US government was just watching out for foreign terrorists outside the US by collecting local phone data. It's even more obvious that the whole EU and UN are branches of al-queda and should be closely monitored for threats. Kofi Annan could be planning a suicide attack right now!!
I'm being ironic and mocking you Anonymous Coward because you are talking BS.
Firstly, he's not stateless. The US is not denying the fact he is currently a United States Citizen. A stateless person is one with no citizenship anywhere. A stateless person has no right of entry into any country; he has the right to return to the US any time he wants.
Second, nothing in international law obligates any country to not object to an asylum application. It would be a treaty violation to make asylum seeking in and of itself a crime, but that's not happening.
That UN treaty does protect asylum seekers from purely political prosecutions, but Snowden has moved well away from whistleblowing on domestic surveillance programs (I could certainly classify that as "political"), and has progressed to apparently spilling the beans on every electronic intelligence gathering operation he could get his hands on.
When he was still talking about domestic surveillance of questionably constitutionality, I could see him as a civil liberties hero. But he's gone well beyond that by now.
And, as a side note, how did he NOT think going from Hong Kong to Moscow was going from The Frying Pan Into the Fire? Hong Kong was a strange choice to begin with. (He could be successfully hiding almost anywhere in Western Europe, had he fled there.) Leaving Hong Kong to head to Moscow was even stranger. If he wanted the "Court of Public Opinion" on his side, this was not necessarily the best way to go about it. Not to mention the danger inherent in relying on the goodwill of the Peace and Freedom Loving Peoples of Russia.
"does represent ALL THE AMERICANS"
Only 60 members of Congress were briefed and only 3000 people knew about the project in Government. It doesn't represent *all* Americans. It's a deception that's falling apart sustained by secrecy.
Conspiracies take time to unravel.
Half a million signatures tell me, that half a million people SO FAR have read the Guardian leaks. That's a good start.
As the court opens the 2011 FISA ruling that this program is illegal, they'll be 5 million more.
As the extent of the phone surveillance becomes apparent it will be 50 million.
As the extent of the trawl of public records comes out, that will be 300 million.
On what grounds could he have sought asylum before he was in a safe haven? If he hadn't released anything he'd have just been laughed at. An American citizen fleeing persecution with no evidence that he was being persecuted? Asylum application rejected.
Lets see you travel with your citizenship and no passport.
It's possible. Passports exist to prove identity, you don't need to prove your identity if people already know who you are.
The Red Cross and just about any government can issue temporary ID-proving documents although it's unlikely they will be accepted at airports as quickly and easily as a valid passport.
He won't get a fair trail, that's the point.
When Snowden outed himself, he said 'I have no intention of hiding who I am because I know I have done nothing wrong' so why won't he come back and face trial? There are obviously plenty of lawyers who would love to represent him and the case will be covered like crazy by the media.
Truth is, he did do something wrong. He committed treason (and continues to, claiming he has more info about the NSA as if to bribe other countries for asylum). Whether he did it for good reason or bad has nothing to do with the fact he committed the crime. That's the deal with being an activist: you accept the punishment for what you did, even if you think the result of what you did was a good thing.
Whether you agree with what Snowden did or not (I for one do not), dude is a serious drama queen. This is somewhat typical of his generation. Everything is just so much more bigger and more important because it happens to them . It reminds me of an article I read some months ago about how his generation is convinced because they re-tweeted some messages in 2009 during the Iranian presidential election unrest that "I was there, man, on the ground trying to help Iranian democracy."
He clearly did not think things out very well. If he had, he would have fled to Ecuador first, asked for asylum, then leaked everything. Instead he thought he could hide out in Hong Kong, not realizing that China could suggest to Hong Kong authorities that making Snowden someone else's problem ASAP might be the best idea for everybody. I am amused at how he talks about how "I am convicted of nothing". Yes, of course. The reason he is "convicted of nothing" is because he has so far avoided having to answer for his actions in a US court of law.
So his first leak was understandable to many: He found a program that seemed to be, if not illegal, at least questionable and had an American intelligence agency targeting American citizens which it is not supposed to do. Ok, you can understand why someone would choose to reveal that, even if you disagree with that choice. There is a strong argument to be made for the public's interest in knowing this information (if it is accurate).
However now he seems to just be leaking anything and everything. "The NSA is spying on China!" "This NSA is spying on the EU!" Not only is that shit really not that surprising, but it really isn't the kind of thing he can make the same claim about in terms of public good. This seems to be more of a "spill my guts on anything I know because they are after me,' situation.
Well that is not the kind of thing that is going to endear him to many people, or many nations. While a nation might be interested in using him as an asset (one of the oldest parts of spycraft is doubling people) and finding out in private what he knows about the US's spying against them, they are far less interested in hearing it screamed in public to any that will listen.
So I really think he overplayed his hand on things. Had he just leaked information about the PRISM program, I find it far more likely he'd find somewhere to take him in, perhaps in trade for a private debrief about what else he knows. As it stands he is harming his own position.
"Everyone has the right to seek and to enjoy in other countries asylum from persecution." That's not the same as saying that other countries are obligated to grant you asylum.
Also, I'm personally not sure if this is a "case of prosecutions genuinely arising from non-political crimes". Theft of classified government data does not, in my opinion, qualify as a political crime.
But it's not a hypocritical act to sacrifice yourself so that others may have greater freedom.
If he was sacrificing himself, he would have stayed in the USA after distributing all the documents he'd stolen and proudly stood trial for what he'd done.
Instead, he ran for it. And now he's having to deal with the unfortunate reality that most countries aren't going to stick their neck out to protect him from the United States if there's nothing to be gained.
The State Department can revoke your passport. You might notice there's a little part that says "This passport is the property of the United States (Title 22, Code of Federal Regulations, Section 51.9). It must be surrendered upon demand made by an authorized representative of the United States Government." They have the right to revoke your passport and criminal charges are a reason they can. In that event what happens is you can get a special travel document that'll let you go back to the US. Yes, if he takes that, he'll face trial in the US. That is the point of revoking his passport. A passport is not a license to run away, it is a travel document to allow you to travel legally. The US can revoke your passport and tell you to come home if they are charging you with a crime.
I think you need to read up a bit more on the law and human rights. It is quite well established that a country can charge their citizens with a crime, and can do things like revoke travel rights while they stand trial. What Snowden is accused of is a crime. You can certainly argue that they shouldn't charge him, but releasing classified information you've been given access to is a crime. You sign all kinds of NDAs to that effect having a security clearance. You are made full and well aware it is a crime to reveal classified information.
So the US has a valid charge against him, and it is within its rights, nationally and internationally, to revoke his passport and demand he return to face trial. That doesn't mean it is morally right, but that is up to the individual to decide. There is no human rights issue here though. Revealing classified information you are given access to is a crime in every nation I am aware of (in some it is a crime period, even if you are given the information from someone else and have no clearance yourself), and in the US they make it VERY clear when you get your security clearance that you agree not to do so, under penalty of law.
(1) Turned down good asylum candidates: Ecuador, Hong Kong, Russia.
(2) Didnt seem to know that most places dont even consider asylum until you are on their soil (including embassy).
I assume he saved a fair amount from his hihg paying federal jobs. But he is still a young guy and probably doesnt have to much.
Any money he did not hide abroad has probably been locked down by US warrants. US harrassed Wiikileaks to almost extinction three years ago. They can probably gvie good advice on how to channel money now.
I fear when the world loses interest in him, he will run out of money and have to chose an unsatisfactory choice.
It is really so sad, he has lost any sympathy for his case by associating with that organization.
Fuck off US shill.
Wikileaks wrote and edited that statement, its becoming clear Snowden has submitted himself to be Wikileaks' useful idiot and pawn in their larger game.
I don't think Wikileaks has a larger game. Assange has delusions of grandeur and wants to be Bob Geldof, but apart from "get publicity", I don't think they have any plan or vision for what to do if their dreams came true. They do sometimes leak stuff that's useful for people to know, but these days, that appears to be a side effect, not the goal.
Wikileaks did not produce either Bradley Manning nor Eddie Snowden. They used both for publicity, and that the public got access to important documents and information was, I fear, not the primary goal.
I really wish there were whistleblower sites that was more secure and not in it for self-aggrandization and limelight.
If he wants back in, get some cosmetic surgery, contact lenses, go bald and new style or no facial hair. After which, cross our unprotected southern borders, choose a new name, get a fake ID on the black market, stay low for awhile and slowly merge into society again and keep a low profile.
Committing treason against a corrupt government vs. treason against your country can be seen differently by the people. Though he did break the law, many people see him as a hero. Think of it. It took acts of treason against a government that was suppressing and refusing to listen to our people for us to become the country we now are. Maybe this is the first step towards another revolution.
I used to be stateless (de jure, with a 1954 convention travel document), and you are quite wrong. I had the right to return to Germany and the same right of entry to a country someone else with a valid visum has.
"It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
once he spoke about foreign involvement. Prior to that, is was debatable as to his being a whistleblower. But when speaking about what is happening in the foreign context, he became a full blown traitor.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
what a tool this Snowden is. he's a wanted fugitive, accused of treason and espionage. then he whines that US is blocking his asylum bids? no shit, sherlock! he needs to recognize the impact of his actions, and set his expectations accordingly. somebody call the waaambulance! US has long arms around the world, so he shouldn't be surprised when the MIB show up to put him on a plane to quantico
in short, he did a really crappy thing (or herioc thingi if that's your worldview), and he's going to be held accountable to it. any statements to the contrary are naive and self centered (like assange himself).
What's happening to Snowden is less about punishing him as it is scaring any future would-be whistleblowers. He already threw his previous life away by exposing illegal data mining, would he have done so if he thought he also wouldn't be able to get safe harbor anywhere else?
Consider, if he was really a bad guy, he'd board the train to Pyongyang from Moscow. I'm sure North Korea would welcome a former NSA sysadmin with open arms.
More Twoson than Cupertino
Post to undo mod.
According to the Passport Fact Sheet published May 2012, (http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/smart/pdfs/passport_fact_sheet.pdf) the US may revoke a passport if there is an arrest warrant (which there is) to keep an individual from departing the US, if there is a court order restricting the individual from leaving the US. Since Snowden was already outside the US, it would seem frivolous to issue a court order barring him from leaving the US and therefore, by the State Department's own regulations (laws), it appears revoking his passport was handled improperly and this could be seen as a human rights violation as he is effectively imprisoned without due process (without a passport he cannot enter Russia, either and is confined to the one area of the airport that is considered international space).
If Russia declines asylum, since Snowden is technically not in Russia, but in international space, any country could grant him political asylum, put him on a plane, private or otherwise and let him into their country as a political refugee (for which international law does not require a passport). The question is which country will be the one to do that?
The US better hope that nothing happens to him while he is stranded, too. It would be hard to convince the rest of the world that after not following the law on password revocations that we just didn't take him out.
Why was my first impression one of an accomplice having baked a file into a cake for Snowden?
Have gnu, will travel.
Snowden could have just as easily entered Ecuador, and then blown his whistle, instead of whoring for attention. Had he stayed anonymous after leaking, he could quite conceivably have had a few days of, mostly unrestricted, safe travel before his identity was found out. If he is even half as smart as everyone seems to think he is, why the fuck didn't he wait until he had safe ground beneath his feet?
... whatever
Has it not occurred to you that he could have just remained anonymous? He could have leaked everything he has leaked and released who he had worked for. Just saying that the US is doing something bad that involves your privacy would have accomplished nothing.
Quite an experience to live in fear, isn't it? That's what it is to be a slave.
Go ahead and try to enter another country without your passport. Let us know how that works out for you.
Quite an experience to live in fear, isn't it? That's what it is to be a slave.
Snowden was stupid enough to blab about what he found, he could have probably functioned a lot better by slowly feeding the American Conspiracy ideal by saying. I have worked for the CIA, I cannot tell you the details but you all should be really scared about your privacy. He probably could have gotten much further.
How about MLK? Could he have gotten much further if he went around politely murmuring in people's ears, "Uh, I think maybe we could do better for some people who aren't being treated very well..."
Or Gandhi? "You know, perhaps the British have made a mistake or two, and should maybe think about giving India its independence."
Okay, if those two are too far, how about if Daniel Ellsberg kept telling his friends, "Hey, the U.S. might be doing some less than perfect things in Vietnam."
Of course, he's not technically in Russia. Which makes me wonder why the FBI can't just fly some agents to Not-Technically-Russia and drag Snowden's ass back the the U.S. ;)
What an evil fucking genius; he knew the true nature of our corporate-fascist politicians better than we did. One successful attack was all that was required.
Snowden worked for the U.S. Government for how long and never learned the U.S. motto of "do as we say, not as we do"? He actually thinks things like laws and human rights apply to the U.S. Government?
Liberty in your lifetime
Because this should make it pretty fucking clear.
Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
After now the entire world will watch him stand trial --- a FAIR trial. If anything happens to him by unfair means, the reputation of the United States is over.
New Economic Perspectives
A real man would have, yes. A real man would have told the public,
A real man would not engage in the No True Scotsman fallacy as his opening gambit.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
It wasn't
I sure hope the entier world finally sees america for what it is and decides its time for them to taste that unique brand of freedom they force upon others.
Snowden is representative of the whiny,"Look at me, I participated, see? Here's my trophy" generation. Crusaders can't expect to lead the battlecharge, without assuming not only some of the risks, but also the consequences. If Russia was going to allow him to stay in the country, he should've accepted. Why? Because even the ugliest of Russia's hot women are hotter than his ex-stripper girlfriend. STFU, and enjoy your new homeland, jackass.
There are 2 groups of people you can make fun of on the Internet without fear of attack. The illiterate, and the Amish.
And if you really believe in what you are saying now, you should pour gasoline all over yoruself and light a match. Seriously. Then we will all know that you really mean what you say. IOW, you go first.
Quite an experience to live in fear, isn't it? That's what it is to be a slave.
Please renounce your US citizenship. Since you obviously don't think that is any sort of sacrifice. Go live in exile for the rest of your life and then get back to us.
Quite an experience to live in fear, isn't it? That's what it is to be a slave.
While I disagree that releasing documents about government abuse is the same as "whoring" I agree that Hong Kong was a very foolish choice for a place to make his stand. That choice may end up costing him his life. I also think withdrawing his application for asylum in Russia may have been a bad choice. What he really needs is a temporary travel document so that he can fly to a country that will grant him unconditional asylum. Asylum in Russia may have allowed him to get those travel documents until he can seek citizenship elsewhere. Also, once he is a Russian citizen the US would have no right to abduct him when he is traveling somewhere. That means he could live in another country as a tourist and just make visa runs to renew his visa. Then his chioce of countries becomes very large indeed. The lack of a passport is his main problem right now. Russian asylum would solve that eventually.
Quite an experience to live in fear, isn't it? That's what it is to be a slave.
Go ahead and try to enter another country without your passport. Let us know how that works out for you.
It's not uncommon for travellers to get their passports stolen, it's possible to get emergency travel documents if this happens although I'm sure it's not easy. I've never had to do it.
I live in Europe and can travel anywhere in the Schengen area without any ID checks at all as long as I don't fly there.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Area
It sounds like you are saying that someone who pushes a child out of the path of a car is a coward unless they make sure they are themselves hit by that car in the process. It's possible to do good (or what you believe to be good) without destroying yourself in the process.
The documents Snowden leaked did not need a sender for them to be credible. He could have leaked the documents in a number of creative ways without giving away his identity, instead he opted for the "look at me, I'm important" approach. That is the act of "whoring for attention" I was talking about, not the leaking on its own.
And, while talking of being foolish, the guy is applying for asylum in something like 20 different countries, and the official statements all around are "if he's not on our soil, he's not our problem". Most of the countries he's applied to won't even consider his application. This bit of fact should not have come as a surprise to a defector, it's not like the cold war didn't produce ample precedent on the art of defecting. Had he done his homework properly, he would be sitting in a lawn chair on some Ecuadorian coke farm, smoking his pipe and reading the Guardian.
... whatever
Firstly, he's not stateless. The US is not denying the fact he is currently a United States Citizen. A stateless person is one with no citizenship anywhere. A stateless person has no right of entry into any country; he has the right to return to the US any time he wants.
OK, so it's true enough that he is not indeed stateless.
But also, haven't two or three US Citizens ended up in essentially permanent detention without trial, in violation of the Bill of Rights?
That's no excuse to call himself stateless, but, he could reasonably call himself "effectively stateless," considering recent actions by some arms of the US government (as in the above).
If he was sacrificing himself, he would have stayed in the USA after distributing all the documents he'd stolen and proudly stood trial for what he'd done.
Why? You don't have to be stupid to sacrifice yourself. If you witness a mafia boss murder someone, are you going to proudly and boldly testify without asking for witness protection? Believe it or not, given the choice, most people would like to do what they think is right AND not have their life ruined.
He's been indicted? When did that happen?
The GP had it right: he's been accused. The US government has filed a (sealed) complaint for theft of government property, and two offences under the Espionage Act. He has not even been accused of treason in any legally-meaningful way.
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I don't think Snowden was motivated by "look at me". You think he so badly wanted to be famous that he was willing to either be executed, spend the rest of his life in jail, or spend the rest of his life in exile in order to accomplish that? That is a pretty extraordinary claim and I don't see any extraordinary evidence to back it up.
Now, you may want to argue that it was foolish of him not to simply remain anonymous and let his leaked documents speak for themselves. Fair enough. I would guess that he felt releasing his name would give more credibility to his revelations and I think it does give them more credibility, but that greater credibility comes at a very high cost to him.
As for being foolish, I agree that his plan wasn't particularly clever. It really doesn't seem well thought out. But his chief error was his choice of Hong Kong as the location for making his stand. They have an extradition treaty with the US for christ sake. There are even some countries right in Asia that lack extradition treatiest with the US.
If he survives this perhaps he will write about why he made such poor decisions if his goal had been to survive afterword. When I first heard about all of this it sounded like he was willing to sacrifice himself. That he did not mind going to prison or even being executed. If that were true initially it seems clear he has changed his mind about it.
Quite an experience to live in fear, isn't it? That's what it is to be a slave.
It's not uncommon for travellers to get their passports stolen, it's possible to get emergency travel documents if this happens although I'm sure it's not easy. I've never had to do it.
Well I have had to do it. The first step is to go to your embassy. That's where you get your temporary travel documents.
Quite an experience to live in fear, isn't it? That's what it is to be a slave.
As much as I agree that this shit needed to be exposed, he should not have done it if he was not ready to face trial. Otherwise the political value of this act drops dramatically.
May Peace Prevail On Earth
That is a pretty extraordinary claim and I don't see any extraordinary evidence to back it up.
Well, I guess that the act of leaking is evidence enough that he was willing to forfeit his life, at the very least accept exile, it's not like Bradley Manning's fate is any kind of secret, nor Assange's.
When I first heard of this case, the media portrayed it as if the leak had already happened, and then Snowden outed himself, as in two distinct events. I'm not sure if that's true or not, but something smells fishy in all of this. Allegedly, Snowden is a very smart guy, but since the leaks he's made a series of very poor decisions. Even for an ordinary guy, that's unusual, and if we take into account that he has one of Wikileaks' lawyers with him, it makes it all the more fishy.
I think we're a little bit too eager to accept Snowden is who he, and the NSA, says he is - I can't quite put my finger on it, but something is off in this whole thing. Why would two, presumably smart people, make a series of outright stupid decisions? It doesn't make sense that he would choose to fly, and Moscow as a destination makes even less sense. He could have rented a car, a boat or a new pair of sneakers and be almost untraceable. Why choose to fly, and why to Moscow? And as I mentioned earlier, why out himself when there's no reason to? Even if he wanted to make the leaks more credible, he could have done so from a much safer haven than Hong Kong.
... whatever
Did you even remotely consider the possibility that Snowden may be in a situation somewhat ( or much ) similar to those who opposed the German fascist government in the '30s of the XXth century ? If and when your adversary or, let's use the right word here, your enemy is a superpower, your best option may be, as a matter of fact, to run. And then again, Sir: would YOU stand all alone in an American court and face the entire impetus of the state rolling over you ? Would you, Sir ?
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My karma is bad. Don't get too close!!!
If you weren't a fucking dumbass and you were in Snowden's shoes, no doubt you'd be trying to seek asylum in as many countries as you could too. Yes, even if their views don't perfectly align with yours. Life is full of choices... and in Edward's case, they are unfortunately running out as the U.S. tries to strong-arm countries out of giving him asylum.
Everything Mr. Black Asshole says is exactly opposite of what he really means. He won't be doing any "wheeling and dealing" to catch a 29-year-old "hacker"? Sure--he'll just have his Vice President and other people he controls in the government do it for him. Hell, he'll have European governments do his dirty work for him, blocking their airspace so a South American president cannot safely return home on schedule, under the "suspicion" that this 29-year-old "hacker" is on-board. Nope, no "wheeling and dealing" or "scrambling jets" here.
Fuck the U.S. government... and I am *from* the U.S. I'm just waiting for someone, *anyone*, to accept Edward. He has done us Americans an invaluable service. Fuck, he has done the entire world a service, including those weak pussies known as France who helped to block off Bolivian President Morales. Edward deserves justice--and not the kind of hypocritical bullshit that my own government dishes out that they call "justice". He knows he won't get real "justice" here, so he left. That's completely understandable, and it should be fucking obvious by now to any U.S. citizen.
Never mind the fact that the U.S. has no extradition treaty with Russia and we were begging them to hand him over; yet, we will commit an international crime of blocking a national leader's flight just to catch him. What a bunch of motherfucking hypocrites we are.
You must stand for government corruption. I don't.