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Tesla Motors May Be Having an iPhone Moment
pacopico writes "Telsa Motors has started churning out 500 of its all electric Model S sedans per week. Bloomberg Businessweek just did a cover story about the company, suggesting that Tesla is becoming more than just a fad of rich folks in California. According to the story, 75 percent of Tesla's sales now come from outside of California, and the company appears poised to raise its sales forecasts for the year. There's a lot of talk about Tesla's history and why it survived when Fisker and Better Place failed too."
After a couple of years of using Android-based phones, I finally got a Windows Phone 8 based Nokia Lumia. And damn god I'm impressed! It is single handedly the best phone there has ever been. No more troubles with fragmentation and malware and no more "lagdroid". Windows Phone is the next generation, today.
Ok, I love iPhones and I love the entire Tesla story but what was the point of dropping "iPhone" into the title of this post?
Oh. That's right. Page views.
meh...
... but French Exagon Motors is better (http://www.exagon-motors.com/)
For all the whining and moaning about rich people, that seems to be how society advances often. A rich person's fad then becomes a commodity.
Except for ending slavery, the Nazis, communism, & securing American independence, war has never solved anything.
California isn't the only place where rich people buy toys. I see plenty of bald law/finance people in Chicago with them. Porsche should be getting nervous.
So, it's not just a fad for rich folks in California, it's becoming a fad for rich folks in other places too.
Right.
Lost at C:>. Found at C.
For all the whining and moaning about rich people, that seems to be how society advances often. A rich person's fad then becomes a commodity.
Yeah ... but I mean to call the Model S no longer a rich person's fad is stretching it. Their MSRPs for a 60 kWh car is $62,400. $72,400 for an 85 kWh and $87,400 for the 85 kWh with upgraded features. Is this really affordable? I thought I was living a pretty average lifestyle but I spent $6,600 on my current car ... Of course, if you're calling it the iPhone in that everyone else is buying it and I'm laughing at how much money they're spending on phones then, yes, it could be called the iPhone. Still very much a rich person's car though.
My work here is dung.
It seems that the only reason they are selling is that it's a $7500 tax write off for the rich.
https://www.google.ca/search?q=tesla+subsidized
Obama's legacy: (N)othing (S)ecure (A)nywhere and (T)error (S)imulation (A)dministration
I'm sorry, I just don't care for battery cars, just like I don't care for iDevices -- perhaps the (dumb) analogy is more accurate than the author intended.
You mean sudden rise to popularity then crash and burn into obscurity? Cool!
Is that, according to Bob Lutz, it pushed Chevy to make the far more practical Volt. I've had one for 2 years, and love it, it wasn't sooo pricey, and you could actually get one the day you wrote the check.
Why guess when you can know? Measure!
I walk by the abandoned Tesla Motors showroom on the Pearl Street Mall in Boulder all the time.
Saw a Tesla on the electric car charging point at Bodnant Gardens, North Wales, a couple of weekends ago.
A Tesla!
At Bodnant!!
NORTH WALES!!!
The mind boggles!
Just about every morning on my way to work, I see two of the Tesla Model S on the road. I commute between Palm Beach Gardens and Jupiter, Florida. That's less than a 20-minute commute.
If you're looking for a conversation starter at the country club or marina, a BMW, Mercedes or even a Bentley isn't going to work nearly as well as a Tesla.
While $65,000 to $75,000 seems like a lot for a car (I cringe at paying half that), there are just as many cars in that price range rolling in Palm Beach County that aren't nearly as exotic or as head-turning as the Tesla. I pass dozens of $65k+ cars on the way to work and it isn't unusual to see $100k+ cars either. Those are mostly background noise because they are so common.
Cheers,
Matt
My latest copy of BBW came with a cover featuring a white "hedge fund manager" looking at his wang, with phallic arrows coming out of it and a headline suggesting he has both ED _and_ delusions of grandeur. (See it here: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-07-12/hedge-funds-are-not-necessarily-for-suckers.html) I cant wait for the Tesla cover so I can throw this one away.
yeah, and oil is totally free for the state; excpet for some extremely expensive wars, and subsidies for petrol cars. and health costs ...
Yes, I'm left. You have a problem with that?
I'm sorry, I just don't care for battery cars, just like I don't care for iDevices -- perhaps the (dumb) analogy is more accurate than the author intended.
I've actually sat in a Tesla Model S at a electric vehicle show. I defy anyone to actually test drive one and claim that they "don't like battery cars". The Model S is obviously too pricey for most folks but it is an awesome car almost any way you care to measure it. It's fast, handles great, has range comparable to gas cars, looks nice, doesn't need gasoline, has a terrific interior and can even be recharged relatively quickly given the state of the art in recharge technology. Given it's range the recharge time problem is significantly mitigated. I'd buy one in a heartbeat if I had the money.
If the technology can be developed to get recharge times down to 5-10 minutes you had better start learning to like "battery cars" because that is really the only serious problem holding them back. Until we get to that point I think we're going to see a slow but steady migration through plug in hybrids. I've driven the Volt and the Ford Fusion Energi and I'm seriously considering buying one or the other. They're both genuinely good cars for reasonable prices (not cheap but competitive) and I can do much of my daily driving without needing to use gas.
It seems that the only reason they are selling is that it's a $7500 tax write off for the rich.
Right, because the number one criterion rich people use when deciding which car to buy is price.
I don't care if it's 90,000 hectares. That lake was not my doing.
"...Franz von Holzhausen, can barely contain himself as he talks about the design of the Model S. “It’s like the leap of faith Apple (AAPL) took with the iPhone,” he says, explaining why the car has a touchscreen instead of the usual physical buttons."
This is monumentally wrong. Touch screens succeed on a phone because a phone is a portable device and the touch screen is lighter and smaller. Physical controls are preferable for humans because they model the physical world to which we've adapted. In a car, you need to use the controls without taking your eyes off the road. This means location by feel is important. A touch screen can't provide that.
It seems the entire design world has this backwards, include appliance manufacturers. I hate the buttons on my oven.
No Tesla car is worthy of his name without it being able to generate 5 meter long arcs of electricity on demand.
Try licking the battery pack of a Model S. Report back to us on your results.
Tesla only appears to be somewhat successful for now because it has a sexy product and has latched onto government subsidies. It could never survive based solely on the actual merits of its product.
Magically, natural gas that goes into charging a tesla overnight is different than the oil coming out of the same well?
...that people actually think that the electric cars of today are the answer to our fuel and pollution problems. I would love to know where these idiots think electricity comes from. Yes, there are clean electricity sources but for the most part electricity comes from burning fossil fuels just like your car, either coal, or oil. So, even though electric cars help in some small way right now later as the electric car population increases they will be just as harmful as our current vehicles. They may even be more harmful since they will be using electricity and that will take away from the electricity that we largely depend on for survival to heat, cool, and light our homes and businesses. So, to all the liberals out there that think electric cars are the answer...get off your idiot soap box!
I saw the Model S in the new wing of the Yorkdale shopping center in Toronto. Nice setup and even nicer women selling you the car. That being said, while I can afford the Model S, I won't be buying it. Its a really nice empty shell with a big screen and all but for that money I'd buy an Audi priced the same before a Tesla. Call me old school but I still need to hear the car go vroom.
Defeatist attitudes get us nowhere. We need to clean up power generation sources too. Doesn't mean we shouldn't support electric cars and its possible to buy from renewable sources in some areas too.
Cite some sources and we might believe you. The liberal jibe only lessens the credibility of your argument.
The only real problem with battery cars is the battery. Where do used batteries go?
For the same cost as buying a nicely optioned Model S I can get a nicely optioned Porche which has fewer headaches and way better appeal.
My truck cost $35k and I use it for actual work (transporting heavy objects). I can't possibly imagine the logic of spending double than that on a vehicle that is only useful for transporting a small number of human occupants and maybe some bags of groceries. Unless you aren't interested in just a means of transportation, but a luxurious comfortable shiny toy that is fun to operate and is also capable of transportation.
After all the rich douche bags have bought these cars, and gotten tired of them, the market will be dried up forever.
Meanwhile Honda, Toyota and Kia have locked in the majority of the market for decades to come.
I've had my Toyota for 10 years and I know it will last for another 10.
Where do used batteries go?
Tyrion? Is that you -- given up on your wife and getting into the Green Movement?
https://app.box.com/WitthoftResume Code: https://github.com/cellocgw
Tesla demoed battery swapping technology recently. Takes 90 seconds, no need to get out of the car. Faster than filling up with liquid fuel.
Another advantage of the Tesla is the space. Flat floor and no engine do you have front and rear boots (er, what do Americans call them, trunks...)
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
Some wag yesterday stated there are a bunch of used Tesla's for sale on eBay and no one is biting - mainly because the pricey battery packs are worn out. Not sure if it's BS or not as I'm at work and that whole site is blocked (rightly so).
For the most part, they don't go anywhere - just about every battery put into a hybrid or an all electric in the last decade is still out there in service.
As for what happens at their eventual end of life... these batteries are eminently recyclable. The nickel in a Prius battery is valuable, as is the cobalt and manganese in li-ion powered cars (chemistries vary). The lithium content itself isn't terribly valuable, but can be recycled. The steel and aluminum chassis and casing is trivial and relatively profitable to reclaim. Copper bus bars are plenty valuable. The pack's control electronics may end up scrapped, or may end up in freshly produced batteries. There has been talk of using repleted packs in stationary applications like grid backup, UPSs, etc. In short, I think there will be a thriving market for these batteries. One will not simply toss them into the landfill.
The same is true for smaller packs in consumer devices today: NiMH packs from portable tools, Li-Ion packs from laptops, all can be recycled at essentially zero cost to the consumer and at some profit for the recycler. In many jurisdictions in the U.S., and pretty much everywhere else in the developed world (Japan, EU, etc.), such recycling is mandatory.
The only real problem with battery cars is the battery. Where do used batteries go?
Used batteries are recycled by KBI/Toxco...
No you don't. Just like the asshats who ride harley davidson motorcycles don't "need" to hear their motorcycles violating local noise ordinances. You might like it (no idea why) but you certainly don't need it. Speaking for myself I don't really want to hear your car go vroom either.
I'm somewhat mystified why people would a car that is any louder than it absolutely has to be. It's noise pollution, nothing more. Noise from a car is a by-product. People expect it because it has always been there but it does not make the vehicle perform any better. Personally I want a car that is absolutely silent and goes like stink. (and no there are no blind people crossing the road anywhere I drive)
Recycled, like the vast majority of batteries currently used in cars, hybrid or not.
Where do used batteries go?
They get recycled. 5 seconds on Google would have informed you of that fact.
The comment above is a classic example of a phenomenon you often see: a commenter with reasonable general education takes a small number of facts about the world and uses them to make wholly unsupported assertions and snarky criticisms. They may be entirely wrong but the original commenter is defiantly confident.
In reality, in any technical/environmental/engineering issue, people who have done this for a living have examined all the issues far more thoroughly, with quantitative estimations based on real physical facts and investigations. Yes it's an appeal to expertise, because the experts are far more likely to be right than an offhand remark or guess from gut feel.
Not infrequently a confident-but-wrong commenter then tells people to "learn something about science". It is much more frequent than the reverse than the opinions of this sort of person are on the side of opposing changes for environmental sake or any common benefit.
Actual ignorant people don't act this way, they don't think they know the answer already about something complicated. It's like somebody who's had a few weeks of biology class believe that they know more than a board-certified cardiologist.
Just sayin, but things are kinda different when you get the free use of half a BILLION in cash to develop your product.
Most startups struggle with 2-10 MILLION in seed funding.
Must be nice to be one of Obama's golf buddies.
Pretty soon Tesla will have sold as many cars as De Lorian.
Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
Both cars. One chose Karma. One chose Roadster.
One executed conventional engineering with battery backup. One executed an allegory to automotive history wrapped around all electric engineering.
One's backup systems turned and committed car suicide in a NJ puddle. One executed a stanch defense in word and deed against NY media assassins delivering charging stations and more cars.
Except for the few incredible cars it produced, Fisker is no more. To the victor the spoils. Tesla won
Yes, everyone can have an opinion. Opinions are like assholes - everyone has one.
I don't have to agree that it is valid or correct. Many, perhaps most people have misplaced priorities and lack a basic logical understanding of how the world, and especially finances, work. Their magical thinking assumes that they will always have "enough" money, and will always have more in the future -so hey - spend on what you want now.
Wants are not needs. Almost everyone spends too much on wants, A small amount is manageable but a growing percentage of people are spending more and more and more on wants and not handling their needs. (Retirement savings is a prime example.)
The same people who spend unnecessary money on luxuries are those who clamor to be bailed out when things get bad. This includes greedy, corrupt, wealthy bankers and impoverished indolent wastrels, and lots of people in-between, and unfortunately is a growing percentage of the populace.
Right place, right time. If you think successful businesses are based just on know-how an sweat, you've missed pretty much all of human history.
And just because you get 500M doesn't mean you can make a business out of it - but it sure helps.
Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
Electricity is most commonly produced by giant furnaces burning fuel, which boils water into steam, which turns a turbine, which spins a magnet, which produces an electric field, which transfers electrons along miles of conducting bundles of wires at some loss to where they are consumed by a motor to produce work, or stored by a battery at some loss at the final destination.
On a related note, who names their recycling company "Toxco"?
The cow says "Moo." The dog says "Woof." The Timothy says "Thanks, valued customer. We appreciate your input."
So it's a $55,000+ car? Something tells me that $7,500 isn't as big of an incentive as you think.
Long Live the Frunk!
+1 Disagree
We're not there yet. The high-power charging infrastructure isn't widely available. That will come.
No car should have a giant touchscreen. You're supposed be looking at the road. At least until we get full automatic driving.
What are the byproducts of the recycling process?
It seems that the only reason they are selling is that it's a $7500 tax write off for the rich.
You think the major reason why someone would buy a $105k car is for a $7500 writeoff? Where did you get your economics degree?
"Our two-party system is like a bowl of shit looking at itself in a mirror." - Lewis Black
It sounded like, from the article, the Model S had a replaceable battery pack, and you would simply replace that at a station like a propane cylinder, rather than actually charge it... that was Tesla's marketing ploy on the video at the auto show. They showed 2 Model S vehicles having the pack replaced in the time that it took to fill an Audi with 20 gallons of gas. My probably with that is this. What is the cost of a replacement battery pack? Also, the packs are said to get 300 miles, but that's with extended-range mode enabled which is apparently not recommended for day-to-day use, and it also means no AC or heat. In tests done by third parties, they saw 200-220 mile ranges on a pack without extended-range enabled, and that dropped to around 180 miles with heat on in the winter or AC enabled. I'm going to go ahead and guess whatever model of Audi they showed, probably gets at least 300 and more likely 400 miles on a 20 gallon fill-up... so, you can change a battery in half the time, but you have to do it twice as often... doesn't seem like a benefit to me. The caveat being, battery tech gets better all the time, so eventually it may be better... then again, gas engines are getting more and more economical as well.
Didn't you know? fracking the fuel to create electricity really is the way to go.
Got Code?
The day when electric cars become also the economic decision is a revolutionary day for poor people. Some poor people struggle to make ends meet in part because of gasoline cuts into their income from commuting to work. Electricity costs about 1/10 as much as gasoline now, and with infrastructure upscaling, it could cost less in the future. So basically driving around would be free. People who rarely leave their house to conserve on fuel would be free to drive around. Maybe the roads would be more crowded, but they'd have the ability to frugally shop around at more stores for lower prices. This is because a poor person will spend more time to get better deals. The reason poor people don't travel to several stores at once now is because the gasoline prices say if you travel too far, what you gain in savings will be lost in fuel. With essentially free fuel, a poor person could be a more keen savings oriented shopper.
God spoke to me
That's what I think when something is compared to an iPhone.
So say we all
How do you define "Rich" though? Something like 90% of Americans define themselves as middle class, so it really covers a wide amount of territory.
So what's your definition? $1M+ in assets? $5M+? $100k in income/year? $250k? More?
Let's look at the basic 85 kWh model, which comes with free charging and such. $72,400. That works out to $1,207/month over 5 years. Ouch, no kidding. Let's say that our theoretical 'middle class' person is:
A: Car focused; they're going to be driving the 'best' car they can get no matter what, even if it impacts their savings/housing. Nobody ever said everybody 'middle class' is 100% financially logical/responsible.
B: Has access to free electricity for charging(work, supercharger stations, whatever)
C: Itemizes on taxes already.
D: Drives an average amount of distance per year, but no trips outside of a Tesla's range.
Please note that I'm trying to be favorable to Tesla in this case, in order to see how low it could realistically go.
1. $72,400 minus the federal rebate of 7,500 becomes $64,900
2. 15k miles/year@20mpg(nasty city driver, best case for electric, worst for gasoline), 750 gallons@$4 = $3k/year. $15k in fuel savings. $49.9k left
Picking on GM, the Cadillac CTS-V Sedan is more expensive(3.9 v 4.2 for 0-60), and the XTS and CTS Sport are close. BMW 7 Series are uniformly $25k+ more expensive. You need to drop to the 5 series to reach that price point.
It's not even to middle-middle class yet, but I'd say it's moved from 'rich' people to 'upper-middle'.
I don't read AC A human right
Tesla demoed battery swapping technology recently. Takes 90 seconds, no need to get out of the car. Faster than filling up with liquid fuel.
I don't really see that taking off because it's too much of an infrastructure investment and requires too much cooperation between rival companies. Electric wires are already strung all over the place and it is fairly straightforward to upgrade them to accommodate the extra juice. For battery swapping to work at a large scale, electric car vendors have to agree upon a standard battery design and I just don't see that happening anytime soon. It's a nifty idea but I have my doubts.
Hey with the introduction of Fracking there is not problem with the availability of gas to create electricity to power these green vehicles. LOL
Mock if you will, but that's a good thing. While I'd rather us not use gas in favor of renewables, I would much rather use natural gas than coal. The same applies to electricity from natural gas generation v. gasoline. Small progress is better than twiddling your thumbs until the perfect solution is ready.
If it's for-profit but free, you're not the customer -- you're the product (e.g., the Slashdot Beta's "audience").
Oh, I don't doubt that it's a fine electric automobile, based on a Lotus Elise, it would be hard to make it bad, however; the very concept of a battery car is what I take issue with, as a gear-head I have just a have a personal prejudice against.
Personal prejudices and preferences aside, my biggest issue with electric cars is that you're really just shuffling the emissions around. Instead of the source of pollution being from a very tightly regulated source (tail-pipe emissions), they are now likely to come from a largely unregulated and dirty power plant -- 42% us power came from coal in 2011. Until we get a point of 100% clean renewable energy, I'm not sure the trade-off is worth it.
Call me old school but I still need to hear the car go vroom.
There should be an app for that. No, seriously. It's got a sound system with subwoofers. It should be relatively trivial.
Kind of like all how some modern electronic guitar amps can mimic the flaws ...er.. special sound of many different old vacuum tube-based analog models. If some old fossil (no offens) can't stand missing the quirks of the previous technology, then we can emulate it. Plus, it gives you the fun of switching up the feel of your car. Want to feel like you're in a sports car? Excellent. Want to it to sound like driving a dump truck? Well, that's cool too.
Actually, that sounds kind of fun...
If it's for-profit but free, you're not the customer -- you're the product (e.g., the Slashdot Beta's "audience").
Lets put it this way, Tesla would have to outsell Civic and Corolla combined to be even remotely considered analogous to iPhone's success. iPhone replaced shitty economy phones, Tesla has to replace shitty economy vehicles.
A $100k commuter vehicle is a fad, not a revolution.
I haven't thought of anything clever to put here, but then again most of you haven't either.
BTW, BMW is taking Tesla challenge seriously. It is moving to i3 a plug in electric with a range of 100 + - 20 miles with a range extender engine giving another 80 miles of range. Scheduled for late 2013.
Lotus has been working on a integrated IC engine + generator on a single block, tuned for running for long periods at max efficiency RPM. There are going to be lots of competition in the Chevy Volt segment and the Chevy Spark Nissan Leaf segments. In fact BMW is trying to squeeze in the middle of these two segments. Tesla is conspicuous by its absence.
sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
'based on a Lotus Elise' would be the Tesla *Roadster* - which they haven't produced for a couple of years now. the car everyone is talking about in this story is the Model S, which is built from the ground up by Tesla as a pure electric vehicle, and is therefore a much more optimal solution.
'42% US power came from coal in 2011' - and it's dropping rapidly in most states (ie the non-coal producing ones). some states are 0% coal. doesn't matter either way. even at 42% coal, the power station is still far more efficient than an internal combustion engine (ICE is 20-25% efficient, coal power station is 80+%). that's where the official government MPG values come from - 92 MPG equivalent (based on CO2 emissions). reduce the coal percentage in your state and that MPG value climbs dramatically.
What are you talking about? If you're talking about lead-acid batteries, they're plastic, lead + lead oxide and sulfuric acid. If you're talking about lithium-ion, there's plastic, lithium + whatever the particular chemistry uses and perhaps some electrolyte.
All of those components are recyclable or reusable in some way.
Depends where you live. Where I live, my power is 95% hydro and 5% nuclear(which boils water, which turns a turbine...), it is also about 75% cheaper than the national average. For me buying an electric car is fairly green and cheaper than a normal car.
Oh, I don't doubt that it's a fine electric automobile, based on a Lotus Elise,
The Model S is not based on the Elise. The Tesla Roadster was but that no longer is in production. Try going to Tesla's web site before posting next time.
Personal prejudices and preferences aside, my biggest issue with electric cars is that you're really just shuffling the emissions around.
You're forgetting several important details. First is that you can power an electric vehicle with power from non-fossil fuel sources. Hydro, wind, solar, nuclear etc. You can actually reduce the emissions to a good approximation of zero. Second is that it is MUCH easier to control emission at the generating station than it is to try to do it on every tailpipe out there. Would you rather have one big filter or millions of small ones? Third is that the power efficiency of electric motors is significantly higher than for internal combustion engines. ICEs waste a huge amount of power in the form of heat. Fourth is that you have the option of powering an electric vehicle with fossil fuels that are potentially less polluting. Instead of coal you can power it with natural gas or even oil.
Until we get a point of 100% clean renewable energy, I'm not sure the trade-off is worth it.
So nothing is worth doing until it is perfect? That's a pretty tragically stupid argument.
'based on a Lotus Elise' would be the Tesla *Roadster* - which they haven't produced for a couple of years now. the car everyone is talking about in this story is the Model S, which is built from the ground up by Tesla as a pure electric vehicle, and is therefore a much more optimal solution.
you're right, mea culpa.
I'm asking what unwanted byproducts result from the process of breaking down the battery and turning its components into a reusable condition. How much of the recycling actually happens at North American facilities and how much is shipped overseas for processing?
TVA?
It sounded like, from the article, the Model S had a replaceable battery pack, and you would simply replace that at a station like a propane cylinder, rather than actually charge it...
It is replaceable and Tesla has demonstrated this technology. However I think it is unlikely to become widespread anytime soon. The logistics and infrastructure simply don't make it economical. I think it is VERY likely however that recharge times will be brought down to 5-10 minutes in the not terribly distant future.
My probably with that is this. What is the cost of a replacement battery pack?
Doesn't much matter. The battery pack is under warranty for the better part of a decade and if you do swap it you are getting an identical unit. There is some cost obviously but it's kind of irrelevant.
Also, the packs are said to get 300 miles, but that's with extended-range mode enabled which is apparently not recommended for day-to-day use, and it also means no AC or heat. In tests done by third parties, they saw 200-220 mile ranges on a pack without extended-range enabled, and that dropped to around 180 miles with heat on in the winter or AC enabled.
I know a guy who owns one of the performance models with about 7000 miles on it and he uses it as a daily driver. According to him in normal driving you'll see 240-270 miles which is pretty close to the pickup I drive right now as a daily driver. He also said that worst case scenario (100mph lead foot driving in frigid temps) you'll see 170-180 miles. He can charge it at work and home and has enough range to drive from Detroit to Cleveland without stopping (about 200 miles). Obviously you can come up with circumstances where a gasoline/diesel engine would be a better option but with the Tesla Model S the only common circumstances are very long distance drives (>250 miles) or in some parts of the world extreme cold conditions.
I'm going to go ahead and guess whatever model of Audi they showed, probably gets at least 300 and more likely 400 miles on a 20 gallon fill-up... so, you can change a battery in half the time, but you have to do it twice as often... doesn't seem like a benefit to me.
You have a bladder that can drive 400 miles in one sitting? Frankly I pretty much have to get out of the car every few hours anyway to stretch my legs so I don't really care if I need to plug in (or battery swap) while I do it. If you just like driving an Audi that is fine but it doesn't make the Tesla a bad alternative. You're just picking a different set of tradeoffs.
The caveat being, battery tech gets better all the time, so eventually it may be better... then again, gas engines are getting more and more economical as well.
Gas engines do not have the upside potential of electric motors. They simply aren't as efficient. There is a reason locomotives use electric motors and the diesel just provides the juice to power them. (I'm hoping trucks do that someday) They'll continue to improve but electric motors are going to take over a big chunk of the market in time. Hybrids in the near term with electric vehicles taking over as recharge times fall below the magic 10 minute mark.
A good chunk of tesla sales go to norway, making norway the first country outside US to get Tesla superchargers. The reason is simple: EVs have enoromus tax breaks and road access privelidges:
No VAT (Equivalent to US sales tax) Normal VAT is 25%
No taxes. Most cars get added taxes to the tune of $4000 and up. Cars in the same performance bracket as tesla usually have taxes in the $20000-$50000 range. (Taxes are based on emissions and weight)
Access to bus lanes (Which makes most EVs in norway largely concentrated in a single county just outside Oslo where the highways are notoriously congested)
These benefits will not last .If a lot of teslas outside-US buisness is based on such tax breaks I foresee a significant political risk for teslas buisness
I'm assuming that by "the poor" you mean the bottom 47% of wage earners who pay no net federal income taxes?
Not at that price at least.
If people are buying them because they're novel and start talk then they simply will become more common until they aren't novel and don't start talk.
http://lkml.org/lkml/2005/8/20/95
If the truck is driving back empty, they should fire their logistics guy.
The problem with this is that because it's a hazardous flammable and fairly poisonous liquid substance you're transporting it in a tanker designed for hydrocarbon fuel, not a general transport vehicle. You still need to get the trailer back to the refinery/distribution point to move more gasoline, but the selection of items that can go into the trailer is extremely limited - can't put food products in there, can't put potable water or drinking alcohol, etc... That's assuming any of this is produced at your distribution point.
Longer ranges it's piped or transported by railroad, but for ~100 mile final transport, they are stuck driving back with an empty trailer.
I don't read AC A human right
If you think that $7500 credit means dick to any of the buyers you are stupid. The people buying this car are buying it instead of a Lexus, Mercedes, Porche, etc. The cars they are forgoing for the Model S cost as much or MORE than the Model S.
The Model S is NOT a mainstream car. Though initially targeted at the mainstream market they couldn't get the dollar target so they upgraded the car and sold is as a luxury car. It comes fully loaded. Go to the website and price one, about the only option you can choose is whether it comes with a 240V fast charger they install in your house. Previous numbers I've seen show high end German cars have seen a 50% drop in sales due to the Model S. The Model S has and will remain a Luxury car with an electric drive train but it's in the same price range as the cars it's displacing. It's a really really nice car, and it's priced into that category and it also comes with the same service the people buying in this range expect. Such as you call Tesla if the battery dies and they tow and charge for free.
The Model S is just a high end Lexus or Mercedes, it appeals to the same audience of upper middle class that want cars that are pretty and that they will get great service with.
Of course they also repaid that half a billion. What about the multiple billions the other US car companies received, some of which has not been repaid?
This post is encrypted twice with ROT-13. Documenting or attempting to crack this encryption is illegal.
the iPhone more or less created the Smartphone market in the US. Prior to that the carriers in the States were holding back development with crappy phones and expensive dev kits ($25k+ for a kit was common).
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I hate the idea of the touchscreen though. The last user interface I want to have while driving is one that requires me to look away from where I'm going to fiddle with a featureless surface that I can't operate by touch.
Insane. Raise a legitimate issue and get modded as "troll".
Of course it's much easier to control one point than many, but until the EPA gets serious about a carbon cap or other controls on the dirtiest power plants -- I'll stand by my argument.
Last time I checked, internal combustion engines emit quite a lot of carbon dioxide, not to mention a lot of other nasty stuff. Even the cleanest gasoline powered cars are still pretty dirty. Just because coal plants aren't clean doesn't make continuing to use internal combustion engines more than necessary a compelling alternative. The EPA doesn't control motor vehicle emissions notably better than they do power plant emissions and it is a global problem, not just one in the US. Shifting to a power regime where you can focus on relatively few sources makes the scope of the problem a LOT more manageable.
You *can*, but many folks don't have the option of choosing where their power comes from.
Look at it this way. My current car is powered by gasoline 100%. I have no ability to influence that percentage and never will. If I buy a Tesla Model S, where I live my car would be powered by 66% coal, 22% nuclear, 8% natural gas and 4% renewables. Per state law by the end of 2015, 10% will be powered by renewables (wind mostly in place of coal) and the state is on track to accomplish that. I also that the option via my power company to source all of my electricity from renewables (for a price). I also have the ability to put a wind turbine or solar panel on my house to generate my own electricity if I am so inclined and have the means. In other words I gain the ability to influence in some measure (however small) how my vehicle is powered. Without an internal combustion engine I completely lack that ability.
The beauty of electric vehicles from a power perspective is that we can power them with a diverse set of sources. These sources can be optimized based on fuel availability and emissions targets. In places like France that make heavy use of nuclear power going to electric vehicles is a huge win on pollution. For places like the US and China which use a lot of coal it will take longer. But just staying with the status quo because it will take a while to show full benefits is stupid.
HOLY FUCK YOUR MATH IS SHITTY!
"The truck burning 14.28 gallons of diesel generates about 145 grams of CO2. [1]"
-that's 145 Kilograms you fuck! And you have not included the return trip of the tanker as has been discussed already, making it 290 Kilograms of CO2!.
"The energy losses for the transmission line (considering it comes from coal) generates about 7 tonnes of CO2. [2]"
-Where the fuck do you get that from?? And it doesn't even make sense with your later comparisons!
"A BMW 5 Series 520i would be able to drive about 915.294 miles with that gasoline. [4] Driving these miles, it would release about 91 metric tonnes of CO2 (in the streets)."
-With 10,000 gallons of gasoline..
10000 * 3.78541 liters per gallon = 37854.1 liters * 7km per liter = 264,978.70 km *163 grams CO2 per km / 1000000 = 43,190 kg of CO2
43,190 kg + 290 kg = 43,480 kg or 43.480 metric tonnes of CO2
You have also forgotten that gasoline/petrol is refined from oil, and that the refining process uses some percentage of energy and releases CO2 and sulfur. I cannot find any info on the refining cost.
So how does that compare with the Tesla? .162162 / .8 /.9925 = 0.204234461 kW per km if produced at a plant and transmitted (see previous discussions and citations)
Lets make it easy by comparing the grams of CO2 produced for each km according to the BMW literature.. 163 grams/km.
From your own citations, the Tesla has a 60kW or 85 kW battery. -I know nothing about charging of batteries, but they are rated at 370km for the 60 and 480km for the 85. The 60kW is less efficient so I will use that.
60/370 = 0.162162 kW per km.
Accounting for transmission loss and charging loss,
So how much CO2 produced? 2.08 lbs per kW according to your source.
2.08 * 0.204234461 = 0.424807679 lbs CO2 per km
BUT WAIT! THERES MORE! lets convert the pounds to kg
0.424807679 lbs * 0.453592 kg per pound = 0.192689365 kg CO2 per km.
OUCH! According to this (which is highly subjective) A Tesla running on coal-powered electricity produces 19% more CO2 than the BMW.
-But to compare apples to apples.. an oil fired plant about matches the BMW.
And of course a Natural Gas fired plant allows the Tesla to net 30% less Co2 emissions.
We wont even get into carbon-free power sources like solar, wind, water, etc!
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Anybody with an interest in reducing power plant emissions should check out the "NeuStream," a very promising new type of scrubber that removes sulfur dioxide, mercury, particulate matter, and maybe even CO2 -- which would mean, for the first time we could burn coal without environmental consequences.
That that is is that that that that is not is not.
great news, but i still fear that a serial hybrid is a necessary link to the final goal, i.e., a fuel-cell commuter car, but so far the "government" seems to be succeeding in its efforts to stop progress in this area, e.g., its sabotage of the Chevy Volt project.
The cars are awesome two trunks, fast, awesome looking, they just dropped the price on some models making them reachable for higher middle class.
you know, a couple of years ago the smart car had a model that looked sporty and sexy. all it needed was (ahem) a hayabusa motorcycle engine to make it "bad". seriously, if you want to make sales, make your cars look better than they sound. ppl will tune them (up, or down) in order to please (themselves). #tesla
I need one with a 600 mile range, I will be be a buyer. That's what I've come to expect from a commuter car in the past decade.