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NSA Still Funded To Spy On US Phone Records
Reader turp182 notes that the Amash Amendment (#100) to HR 2397 (DOD appropriations bill) failed to pass the House of Representatives, meaning it will not be added to the appropriations bill. turp182 writes "The amendment would have specifically defunded the bulk collection of American phone records." Americans can see how their representatives voted here.
Spy on everyone. Karma is a bitch, folks.
Not bad for a first try to rein in rogue agency.
We need to keep the pressure on, and support organizations and officials who think the principles of Constitutional government are more important than fear-mongering.
If we don't, the fight is over. The terrorists and our fascist "protectors" have won.
Scruting the inscrutable for over 50 years.
It's shameful. My district borders on two of my previous districts, and both of those districts voted aye. Both of those representatives are men I voted for in prior elections, and proudly so. My current congressman, on the other hand, has brought disgrace upon himself by voting against this amendment. To be fair, I voted against him...
In SOVIET RUSSIA... erm...NSA AMERICA, the Internet logs onto YOU!
Of course it failed. What, you actually thought it might pass? It was obviously a hollow effort by some politicians to appear to be on the side of American privacy while knowing full well that nothing would change and the government would continue to have the ability to do what it's been doing. No surprise there.
So, not only do I have to turn javascript on for that last link but I have to know my rep's name since it's not sorted by name. Also, I don't think Karen Bass is a male black teenager so I think the pictures might have been a bit screwed up. Is it their twitter profile pics or something?
If you post the associated "Show me how my Representative Voted" link, please consider sponsoring the post that it shows up on your friend's feeds. The reason is that often these articles are repeated with multiple sources leading to them not reaching the importance criteria to display on other's feeds. It is too important of an issue to allow $7 in sponsorship fees to bury the message.
If they defund the NSA's programs, they'll just use all those stolen credit card numbers and intercepted banking logins from their data logs to fund it.
I'll know who you called this Summer.
but I still can't sort out my own emails
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
Representative government system at work, flawless as ever. Not like some godawful Egyptian generals, who are causing turmoil just because of some "spirit of the law" and other unholy gibberish.
Ah, Gibson, Sterling and other cyberpunk masters, you were truly prophetic back in your time.
Absence of proof != proof of absence.
The problem with the house is all the Jury Maundering.
Because of the majority, they will work to keep a hold of their majority, so they keep districts, where their threat of power isn't the other side, but people in your power who will claim you are not far enough into their camp. And because your district with a shape to hold your parties interest, means you can't even once vote across party lines.
In the House democracy has failed, in the area that is normal people, most direct say.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
Would you vote for something when the people you're voting to defund come up and say... "Remember, we have all of YOUR phone calls and emails too." But at least it was a close vote.
113th congress is the worst in history, which is sadly impressive given how bad the 112th was.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acts_of_the_113th_United_States_Congress
There have been a total 13 bills make it into law so far this Congress... and the ones that have made it into law are about items such as "Freedom to Fish".
It's at a complete stand still folks. You're representatives have finally dropped to the point they aren't even pretending to represent interests of voters over the interests of their corporate donors.
How bad does it have to get before something is done?
We have been doing this for a long time now. I don't see why having this data is a big deal. They are sitting on phone records that they are largely never going to use.
Disagreeing with you does not make me a troll.
Apparently, I have no legislators and they have my zipcode...
So the representatives got the opportunity to vote on a bill that would have implied financial cuts for the NSA if there was proof that they continued spitting on the constitution, committing perjury to congress, disappropriating money without congressional oversight for the sake of spying on the populace, and this was voted down?
Whose interests are these clowns supposed to be representing?
On a different note, there were "emergency" secret meetings scheduled by the NSA with representatives before the vote happened with the explicit aim of swinging the vote. It does not take a lot of fantasy to guess the kind of incentives the NSA offered. Their best bargaining chips for convincing dissenters will be pretty much indistinguishable from blackmail or offers of blackmailing material on political opponents, given the nature of assets that the NSA has to offer.
Would any other kind of arguments required secret meetings to persuade representatives that it is to their own best if they don't try to put the NSA back under congressional and/or judicial control?
I found this useful:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/113th_United_States_Congress
I just called my representative to express my displeasure. The young woman who answered had an obvious prepared response about how Rep. Sinema has been working to protect the Fourth Amendment and this was a hard decision...but it didn't sound like her heart was in it.
That this amendment failed is a bad sign, that Congress would rather stand with the spymasters than with the citizenry. But there may still be a glimmer of hope for us to push hard enough to un-fuck ourselves.
It does make me wonder, though, what kind of dirt the NSA has on my representative that they could make her cave like that.
b&
All but God can prove this sentence true.
Just another failure that shows our representatives don't give a crap about us.
This amendment was expected to be voted down by a large margin, which is why it was allowed to be voted on. In light of that fact, the 205 to 217 result actually makes this a significant victory for privacy advocates.
A lot of Michigan reps voted affirmative on the measure, including my local rep, Bill Huizenga. I may not agree with him on some issues (hell, a lot of issues), but at least he seems to have the character to stand up to blatant and unconstitutional abuses of authority like this. It's also worth noting that the amendment to the bill was fronted by a Michigan representative.
We may have lost this battle, but the war has barely begun. I would like to point out that when looking up your representatives, don't just maneuver to call and chew out those who voted against our liberties, call those who voted for us and praise them in a show of support.
I would also like to take a moment to sincerely apologize to the tin foil hat crowd: I have made fun of you in the past, only now I am sorry I was too blind to really listen. You were right all along.
Brought to you by Carl's Junior.
It was a show vote. Every single one of these representatives have been briefed on these programs multiple times, and are only now crying foul. They just want their names on a piece of legislation that they knew stood no chance of passing, because it documents some separation between themselves and the sinking ship that is the NSA. There's an old adage about rats and sinking ships...
The best thing you can do is keep their feet to the fire. Don't let them get away with washing their hands of this so easily. They're all guilty as sin, and they all need to be held accountable.
And they want to be heard!
Darnit.
Now that we all know we're being surveilled, I can understand why others may not make similar posts, but I'm going to risk it and say it anyway. I read the previous slashdot article on the amendment. I immediately called my representative. He voted YES! Even if the ship sinks, I still feel very good about this moment. The system may be dysfunctional, but at least some of us are still doing the right thing. The worst thing we can do is succumb to despair. It may take some really tough times to happen, but we WILL eventually emerge on the other side with a better system. It's what life always manages to do, no matter how dark the times become.
AccountKiller
And let them know how you feel about it.
http://politics.nytimes.com/congress/votes/113/house/1/412
Join the Slashcott! Feb 10 thru Feb 17!
This will never pass for one simple reason. The same people who have access to the information and can use these intimate details of someone's life for personal or political gain, are the same ones who are voting on the funding of the same program. Why would the government shut it down, when they can use this to blackmail anyone they want? If had access to all this information and was a sociopathic politician, I would NEVER give the program up.
Remember the Petraeus scandal? Do you really think it was a coincidence that 1 month after Benghazi, the CIA director is found out to be having an affair? The United States is entering a phase known as the post-constitutional republic, where the rule of law is disregarded by the people who are "more equal than others". The Rule of Law offers no protection, because the same people who are supposed to enforce the law are the ones breaking the law.
Fortunately, the Founding Fathers gave the American People two amendments which are their best attempt at protecting the people from the post-constitutional republic. The 1st, allowing the people to speak about what is happening. And the 2nd, allowing people to defend themselves from a tyrannical government. Once the 1st and 2nd Amendment have been 100% usurped, it is time to start learning Chinese.
sudo make me a sandwich
217-205.
My representative, who voted for crap like CISPA even voted against this.
All that is needed is to change 7 votes.
"Gerrymandering"
Doesn't he usually oppose everything that involves spending money? Isn't he supposed to be the great champion of civil liberties and The American Way (TM)? Surely, we should be able to count on him to vote to defund the NSA, shouldn't we?
Having acquired these powers over decades, no amount of voter insistence will be effective in removing them.
What needs to happen now is at the state level - the legislatures must be convinced to grant themselves greater oversight and control over federal activities.
Our representative democracy was designed in an era where (horse-drawn) transportation was problematic, and the decisions of a few were practical. These conditions no longer exist, and the few are now too easily swayed by money and power. More people need to participate in federal decisions if we wish to (re)establish the consent of the governed.
I see 217 people that need to lose their jobs in the next election.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
It would have been a great symbolic win, but the President would have vetoed it no question, and I doubt we could ever get a super majority, even if we could get it passed in the first place.
Surprise surprise.
Government that knows you can't do shit about them no longer cares to hide its moves.
Justin Amash doesn't represent me, but he was elected by the voters of my district. He's a dogmatic ideologue mostly interested in libertarian theater, and most of the time I consider him useless-to-harmful. This is not one of those times.
http://alternatives.rzero.com/
Rogue?
Make no mistake, this is an agency that has gone rogue.
They were authorized by congress to investigate all RELEVANT phone calls and emails by the patriot act.
The NSA decided that every phone call and email in the world is relevant, and had conveniently started documenting every domestic call several months before the Patriot Act was passed.
They had zero legal cover or authorization for these actions until yesterday. (Unless you believe in "secret laws" that are too secret to document)
Yesterday, 217 congressmen decided that their own personal phone calls are relevant to a terrorist investigation, since they apparently can't even trust themselves.
How many of those Dems who voted the amendment down also voted down Patriot act renewals while Bush was president? This proves, once and for all, that the Democrats are just as bad, if not worse, than the Republicans on matters related to privacy and civil liberties.
I don't typically vote on a single issue, but this may be the one.
I just hope all these congresscritters realize that if the revolution isn't peaceful, it will be bloody.
I do not think this country is very far from an "American Spring."
At least they still have the balls to tell other countries how to run their Human Rights Squashing business...
http://www.voanews.com/content/us-presses-rwanda-to-end-support-for-m23-rebels/1707920.html
Where do they get the nerve....
I don't know whether or not Snowden is real -- doesn't matter. The point is the mainstream media decided to trumpet it this time whereas they chose not to in 2006 with the AT&T NSA room. The reason was that the timing was right to (just barely) garner acceptance and thus legalize their illegal activities. We've seen it before with the TSA -- somehow the government knew that the timing was right Thanksgiving 2010 to start universal nude xrays. They just barely got it by against the uproar. Now it's accepted. I suspect they are using polls and statistics to maximize the speed toward tyranny and totalitarianism.
On vote To Preserve NSA surveillance funding:
R: yes:94 no:134
D: yes:111 no:83
Enjoy your Obama supported, Democrat approved NSA surveillance.
But sir, in Project Mayhem we don't have any names.
Oh crap, I've said too much already! (who posted this?!)
Reigning in rogue agencies isn't the answer to the security problem. By all means reign them in, but merely out of civics and saving tax money (our government should be working for us, not against us; all this money being spent on NSA computers could be spent on crack instead, for a net economic gain).
Yet the NSA is merely one (possibly the biggest and most powerful, but still just one) potential adversary out there. Everything they do, someone else could do. And not all adversaries are parts of your government or in any way accountable to you. We have to secure our communications, or else all of your NSA fears (whether currently grounded in reality or not) will eventually come true, but with some other name filled into the bogeyman blank. Please, after we deal with the NSA, let's not go through all this again and again. Can't we learn?
Geez, you could even argue that if we secured our comms, then foreign governments would be less of a threat to us, and the NSA's non-secret agenda would become less necessary. You don't need (quite as badly) the NSA reading the Chinese government's mail, if you start denying the Chinese government the ability to read your mail. In a way, by going to all this extra trouble to make ourselves vulnerable to snoopers, we (at least to some extent) justify the NSA! That's stupid. Even if you think the NSA is necessary (and it probably is!) the goal of all government should be to obsolete itself.
So, NSA guys, I'll at least say this: thanks for the great ciphers. Was this your plan, all along, for persuading us to use 'em? Am I going to read some day, that Clapper ordered Snowden to do what he did? ;-) I don't think it's working, but thanks for trying.
As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
Pilosi? I know exactly how she voted without even looking. And on the off-chance this would make it to the Senate, I can tell you how Feinstein and Boxer will vote too. Good-'ol-girls club hasn't done anything unpredictable in decades. Yet there's no way they'll ever be voted out.
I'm out of my mind right now, but feel free to leave a message.....
Our elected officials have failed us.
This morning, the news was all over the European newspapers and ( tech + news ) web sites. Yet it took more than half a day before it turned op on Slashdot, and indeed in many US media outlets. Why ?
Religous speak to God. Insane are spoken to by God. When all shut up, one can finally hear Shostakovich in peace
the acts of one person to use as an excuse to pursue stripping constitutional rights away but then everyone to stand us against it to counter?
How would things be if the taxpayers did their duty and instructed government how to use the taxes they pay in this republic?
Due to the nature of the story, I was expecting this to be one of those 800+ comment stories. You can make the flogging a dead horse argument, but I assure you the horse is alive and well.
Brought to you by Carl's Junior.
It's probably better the amendment didn't pass and give folks the idea the problem was taken care of.
Once again, our congress proves they have no intention of solving issues in our country, no intention of supporting the will of law. They have proved that all the little hearings they have, and elections is all nothing but a dog and pony show.
They skirt responsibility of law, and if that does not work, then like the emporer of Star Wars, they "make it legal".
Isn't it blatantly fucking obvious that the list of nay-voters is a list of congresspeople that have skeletons in their closet? Binney made it clear that this monster that the NSA created was immediately used against all three branches of our government. Checks and balances are dead.
"Unfortunately, holding such a clearly contradictory belief is a kind of insanity."
Holding such kind of contradictory belief is actually very common. From the luddite which use internet to spread their rant against tech, from the scientific person which normally only accept claim with evidence, then on sunday pray to whichever gods, from the theist which ignore blatant contradiction in their holy books, people holding contradictory belief are actually plentyful. That NSA stuff and thinking they are doing a good job while trampling democraty, constitution and so forth ? Pffft. Small stuff.
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
visit randi.org
What I wonder about right now are the NSA employees who - some surely being geeks who read Slashdot - are reading this comment. How do they sleep at night?
How do they feel?
Like a Stasi (With apologies to Madonna)
Searchin' through the database
Somehow I made it through
Didn't know how lost I was
Until I found you.
I was beat incomplete
I'd been had, I was sad and blue
But you made me feel
Yeah, you made me feel
Shiny and new.
Chorus:
Like a STASI
Tapping for the very first time
Like a STASI
When your phone rings
along with mine.
Gonna give you all my ear, boy
My worries fading fast
Been listening all for you
Cause only data lasts.
Youre so fine and you're mine
Make me strong, yeah you make me bold
Oh your words thawed out
Yeah, your words called out
I came in from the cold.
(chorus)
Youre so fine and you're mine
I'll listen till the end of time
Cause you make me feel
Yeah, you make me feel
You've somethin' to hide.
(chorus)
The irony here, from what I've been reading, its folks on the far left and the far right that voted in support of the Amash amendment. The media in this country likes to lionize moderates, treating them as the reasonable few amidst uncompromising wingnuts. They're overly literal in their interpretation of the political spectrum, treating the middle as though it were actually a measured response to two extremes. But this isn't the case.
The center in this country has its own agenda and it's uncompromising in the support thereof. It's hegemonist in foreign policy. It's statist with regard to national security. And it favors an economy built on finance capitalism and low wages domestically. The center is consistent in these elements and the far left and far right (such as they are) are little more than rhetorical foils that allow the center to present any policy as reasonable. Somehow the compromises they come up with consistently end up with us spilling blood in foreign affairs, further undermining the Bill of Rights, and externalizing costs for corporations (e.g. the studies which show that a given WalMart might cost as much as $900,000 in public assistance for underpaid employees), supporting "free trade" agreements, or simply giving banks free loans.
Personally, I identify most closely with the paleo-conservatives who, favoring tradition and experience as a guide to policy, tend to be suspicious of over-confident ideologies and their proponents. Even so, given the state of things I shouldn't mind to see a few more libertarian right and far left ideologues running about. I'll happily take more gold-bugs and Austrian school fanatics; people who can quote von Mises, Bakunin, Schumacher or Röpke; some social and Christian democrats, Greens, and a few honest-to-goodness socialists. Then at least we can have a real conversation. The center in this country is a real problem--it's too uncompromising.
In one of Snowden's early public statements he said that one of his primary motivations was to inform the people of what the government was doing so that we could have a public discussion about it.
Does anyone think this vote would have happened without his actions?
In addition, ACLU has filed a new lawsuit against the NSA. An earlier lawsuit had been shot down on the grounds that they didn't have legal standing to sue because nobody could prove that they had been directly affected. Of course the proof could only come from government which refused to provide it. Now that we know more about what the NSA is doing, e.g. collecting data on ALL Verizon customers, the government might finally have to argue their case before a court and try to convince people that their actions are consistent with The Constitution.
Cheers to Edward Snowden, William Binney and alll of the other whistleblowers who have risked so much to reveal government malfeasance.
As a Canadian I don't enjoy any protection from the spying because I'm not a Canadian citizen.
So let me be amongst the many who say "Fuck the United States."
This is precisely the kind of behaviour that leads to hatred of and terrorism against the US.
I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
>. How else do you determine whether you are right or wrong except by attempting refutation? If someone publishes a mathematical proof, doesn't everyone immediately search for mistakes? If I can't refute your argument, then I'll happily admit I'm wrong. If I can refute your argument, what reason do I have to believe that I'm wrong?
That works for math, some extent, because you can have objective, irrefutable proof. When someone says to me "you're being selfish", I can ALWAYS refute that and come up with some justification, no matter how right they are. The wise thing for me to do is to pause and ask "do they perhaps have a valid point?". "Am I indeed being selfish in some way?" Most of the time, they are at least half right, and my excuses don't change that fact.
The second half of your post is a great example. No matter how many times socialism fails, you can ignore the facts and "refute" the conclusion by reasoning abstractly within your own world of ideas, by mental masturbation. By the same token, no matter what success socialist regimes may have, I can refute your conclusion by pointing to their many failures. If I were wiser, I'd instead look to see what I can learn from your point of view. I might say "though your method of achieving the goal has always failed, perhaps the goal itself is worth pursuing". Indeed, that's often the case - leftists have lofty goals, worthy goals, but little to no knowledge of what actually works and what doesn't, what can actually be accomplished and how. Conservatives look at what actually works and end up with "let's stick with doing what has always worked". Better that they look at where each other have a good point they are making. Putting their viewpoints together, you get "let's dream big dreams, then figure out how to actually accomplish some of them".
Rather than refuting each other all day, how about I look for the nuggets of gold in your ideas, and you look for where what I am saying makes sense. Then we can learn from each other and work together to implement your dreamy ideals in a way that actually works in the real world.
Congress rejected this bill "very narrowly" (205-217) with 12 abstains. They split themselves into good cops and bad cops almost evenly. How convenient...
Something tells me this was carefully staged political reality show intended to convince people that they still have "some choice", yet it "didn't work out this time". Which is a big lie. They were all complicit in keeping NSA money flowing, they just chose among themselves who will act "good guy" and who will be "bad guy" in this episode.
Once again, there is no functioning democracy in the US these days. US government has gone full retard with spying everyone everywhere, setting up inconvenient folks and even killing inconvenient journalists with enough audacity to warn others that it can happen to them (at least this is how I interpret Richard Clarke's statement).
Your government chose to do bad, bad things that happen to be profitable for them and as their misconducts are becoming more and more blatant, they chose more and more opressions instead of less wrongdoings. Don't expect things to improve anytime soon, it's propably too late.
Since Gen. Alexander & president Obama did "last second 'lobbying'" http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/24/justin-amash-amendment_n_3647893.html [huffingtonpost.com] ONLY - & yes, I strongly suspect that of those mere 7 votes, the ones that sent it over the top were coerced. After all, nobody's going to tell me that J. Edgar Hoover style blackmail tactics or bribes/favors (ala lobbyists, since that is all that really is with another term assigned to it) didn't take place. Nobody in their RIGHT MIND likes this stuff going on, period. Nobody. Clapper & Alexander outright LIED to congress (twisting words using DIRECTLY, just like how they CLAIM there is no easy CENTRAL way to query their own mail but they do it to everyone else - I found that hilarious & disgusting, since mail is really DBMail and to select/insert/update/delete into those, you NEED to have abilities for that... What they told us, unless someone can show me otherwise, is total bullshit. Hypocritical bullshit). It's wrong. Just like screwing with protesters was. Just like the IRS used against political opponents of the current regime in office. I started looking at all of this madness & lunacy and just was utterly disgusted. Most folks, are. This is insane. Truly insane. Why does this concern me and it should you all as well? I was told decades ago by a history professor of mine in collegiate academia this: "Totalitarian regimes start with 'little laws' they pass, getting an inch, & reaching for a mile: Before you know it, you are Nazi Germany/Soviet Russia USA: DO NOT THINK IT CANNOT HAPPEN HERE" & even former President Carter feels the same http://now.msn.com/jimmy-carter-says-the-nsa-has-eliminated-a-functioning-democracy [msn.com] I used to think HISTORY was a waste of my time then. That was until I figured out that the "powers that be" use it as a guidebook for scamming the populace. Polishing up the mistakes those that set the pattern for what they're doing messed up on, & just trying it again, often a generation or two later. These guys have to be reined in. No questions asked. Why? "Absolute Power Corrupting Absolutely". Sooner or later, that kind of power goes to ANYONE's head and they will abuse it. Heck, they lied to Congress, nothing was done. The head of the IRS didn't lose her job either. I suspect that Clapper, Alexander, & the IRS head told Obama "Pal, you fire me? I will let the dogs out on the FACT you gave ME THE 'GO-AHEAD' to do these things and I will take you down with me. Try it!". That's how "politicians" operate. Thuggery, bribery, etc. and the USA isn't happy either http://firstread.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/07/23/19644154-nbcwsj-poll-faith-in-dc-hits-a-low-83-percent-disapprove-of-congress?lite [nbcnews.com] and I certainly didn't see their machinations stop the Boston Bomber either. The trade off/cost-benefit ratio of effectiveness vs. actual crmiinals with their bogus programs is far outweighed by the potentials for misuse. As far as misuse of powers? See just SOME of the examples above that make folks have that all-time low faith in government. What they're doing is dangerous to us all, no questions asked, & fits the pattern described to me by my former history Prof. (smart man, he left a real impression on me back in 1985 with that statement quoted above in fact. I never forgot it, but felt then as a young man it was bullshit... funny how his words are coming to pass now, nearly 30 yrs. later).
APK
P.S.=> Quotes from that article: Conyers said the lobbying "was heavy. They were very worried about it." But, he added, "the fact that they won this narrowly means they still are worried -- because this thing isn't over yet. This is just the beginning
Getting there means that the currently-in-power few must share their power with a currently-less-powerful group.
Good luck with THAT.
>. noting that the socialist regimes that have failed have been authoritarian
Indeed when the government controls people's money (socialism), eventually the government controls people's lives (authoritarian).
That fact is so obviously true it's almost a tautology. If you are itellectualy honest, you will recognize that obvious fact and work from there towards an alternate means of reaching your goal.
If you're a fool, you'll stick your fingers in your ears and pretend that government control doesn't result in government control.
My message to Pelosi (the second in the last week after writing asking her to vote for this amendment):
If you're in San Francisco, feel free to copy the message to her here: http://pelosi.house.gov/contact/
This vote was incredibly close, with a few defections its successors will be successful. This was a roll-call vote, so we know which way they voted!
Roll call votes for Amash Amendment:
http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2013/roll412.xml
Contact your congresscritters! If they voted for the amendment, tell them that you agree with their stand even if you hate them most of the time!
If they voted against it, contact them and tell them clearly and respectfully why this issue is important to you and that it affects your future support. Complain to them, and if their answers are not convincing go out and support a primary challenger!
"We have to go forth and crush every world view that doesn't believe in tolerance and free speech." - David Brin
>. . You're right, goverment control does result in government control. The key is to have a government that is responsive to the will of the people.
Let me know when that happens, when a government is responsive to the will of the people for more than ten years. Then, we can talk about putting that government in control details of our lives.
>The alternative you propose is one where the voice of the people is only as loud as the size of their wallet. That's more freedom if you have a big wallet, less freedom if you have a small wallet.
Not quite. You propose taking the freedom from the people and giving it to the government, then hoping that the government gives it back. THAT results in "only those who control the government have fredom". See communist Russia and China for examples. I propose NOT giving all the control to the government at all, but leaving people's choices to each of the people. Imagine if the Koch brothers controlled a government that was actually limited to the enumerated powers. The elite would control the post office and a few other things. Big deal.
That's a hell of a lot better than having them control what health care I'm allowed, based on my political beliefs. The single payer health care bill you wanted had the IRS running it - the same agency that systematically punished people who disagreed with the president. That doesn't look like freedom to me.
p.s remember that whatever power you allow Obama to have, the next president will also have. That may Jeb Bush or Sarah Palin. How much control do you want Palin or J Bush to have?
* I sure hope Palin never gets elected to anything else, but this country has already elected an actor as president, and Honey Boo Boo sure is popular. Honey Boo Boo for president?
OP here. I watched the House “debate” on the Amash amendment. One guy got up, read the 4th Amendment to the Constitution, and then sat back down. It was actually pretty cool (the debate video is at 8:11:15 – full screen video for better time granularity, the vote starts at 9:02:04):
http://houselive.gov/MediaPlayer.php?view_id=2&clip_id=10183
But, there was one position that no one took that I believe could have been persuasive:
“The reason this amendment exists is because of secret actions using secret courts and obviously very secret and broad domestic data collection methods. That said, we should make any and all attempts to block domestic terrorism. But the overbearing surveillance is clearly out of line with the 4th Amendment to the Constitution. I ask that you pass this amendment so that we may pause and have a PUBLIC discussion about domestic surveillance. Yes, terrorists may change their communication techniques based on such knowledge, but they had to assume, and now know, we were already monitoring everything. Let us have a public discussion, free of phone monitoring, so we can determine what reasonable domestic surveillance means and to ensure that We The People be given a chance to know what is happening.”
BlameBillCosby.com