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Have eBooks Peaked?

An anonymous reader writes "At Rough Type, Nicholas Carr examines the surprisingly sharp drop in the growth rate for e-book sales. In the U.S., the biggest e-book market, annual sales growth dropped to just 5% in the first quarter of this year, according to the Association of American Publishers, while the worldwide e-book market actually shrank slightly, according to Nielsen. E-books now account for about 25% of total U.S. book sales — still a long way from the dominance most people expected. Carr speculates about various reasons e-books may be losing steam. He wonders in particular about 'the possible link between the decline in dedicated e-readers (as multitasking tablets take over) and the softening of e-book sales. Are tablets less conducive to book buying and reading than e-readers were?' He suggests that the e-book may end up playing a role more like the audiobook — a complement to printed books rather than a replacement."

323 comments

  1. Piracy! by MightyYar · · Score: 3, Funny

    It's piracy! We need to make reading a felony!

    --
    W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    1. Re:Piracy! by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 0

      It's piracy! We need to make reading a felony!

      So, you think that's what they thought in the 1920's? "We need to ban alcohol to increase the sales"?

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    2. Re:Piracy! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      It worked.

    3. Re:Piracy! by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      I thought that it was implied that I meant reading the wrong things. I was half-sort-of-joking, since there was that piracy as a felony story the other day.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    4. Re:Piracy! by J3947 · · Score: 1

      Quick! Somebody put words in the publisher's mouth so that we can all laugh at them and feel superior! Aww, MightyYar, you beat me to it!

    5. Re:Piracy! by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Here's the reason I rarely buy e-books: A used paper book is usually cheaper. On Amazon a used book is often only $0.01 (plus $3.99 shipping). When I am done reading it, I drop it off at the local Goodwill, which then sells it on Amazon.

    6. Re:Piracy! by AvitarX · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Not really, alcohol consumption is suspected to have dropped by 30% due to prohibition (citation needed).

      Prohibition lead to all sorts of problems for society, and alcohol really wasn't that bad. Certainly not bad enough that cutting its consumption by 30% had any notable impact.

      --
      Wow, sent an e-mail as suggested when clicking on "use classic" banner, and got a fast response that addressed my msg
    7. Re:Piracy! by MightyYar · · Score: 2

      You are right, I should have just quoted them directly. Forgive me for my cynicism.. the recent news of how Apple and the publishers recently won a consumers' award for fair competition must have slipped my mind.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    8. Re:Piracy! by noh8rz10 · · Score: 1

      I bought three ebooks once and I hate myself for it.

    9. Re:Piracy! by seyfarth · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I frequently face the same issue. The solution is to drop the price of e-books. I suggest less than 50% of the printed book price. I find it frustrating to see an e-book for $10 when a printed one is $12. I can easily resell or give away the printed book, which makes it a lot more valuable. If the e-book were $6, then perhaps I wouldn't care for the printed copy. Also a printed copy for $4 with shipping is not a big deal versus $6.

      --
      Ray Seyfarth, ray.seyfarth@gmail.com, http://rayseyfarth.blogspot.com
    10. Re:Piracy! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Obligatory Stallman

      http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html

    11. Re:Piracy! by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

      When I am done reading it, I drop it off at the local Goodwill, which then sells it on Amazon.

      I usually don't sell a book without scanning if first. Just to be sure.

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    12. Re:Piracy! by Will.Woodhull · · Score: 1

      I bought a dozen or so e-books when I got a Nook a couple of years ago. This looked like the perfect way to carry references on coding and web site development with me, and reduce desk clutter. It has not worked out.

      I don't quite know why. Logically the e-reader takes up less space on the desk than 3 or 4 references and I can carry it about more easily, too. The bookmarks should make it at least as easy to find sections when I need them. But in practice the e-reader is harder to use than a pile of books stacked open to different pages with sticky notes on all the really good stuff.

      Maybe its that I can read a book from just about any angle and reach way across the desk to flip pages if I need to, often while keeping one hand on the keyboard. The e-Reader I pretty much have to pick up to see it properly, hold it carefully in one hand while carefully using the fingers of my other hand to navigate on the damn thing. Then I have to set it down to get back to the keyboard.

      --
      Will
    13. Re: Piracy! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Greed.

      Per DOJ court victory Publishers colluded with Apple to drive up prices. Bad move, the negative publicity alone (let alone cost of settlements) likely contributes significantly to the loss of interest.

      Consumers may have figured out 'owning' an e-book is more like renting (can't resell, seller can lock you out of your account or remove rights to a specific book). So of course won't pay anywhere near price of a 'real' book.

      B&N did a deal with MS, and it seems clear that means MS h/w and s/w, which I for one won't accept. All my Nook purchases now are throw-away as it is inevitabe I will leave B&N ecosystem. I suspect I am not alone in this.

      All three items are driven by greed. If industry players want to survive they need to think and act from consumer point of view. If they deliver good value e-books will grow, if not they will fail (for now) and a decade will go by before another try is made, or more likely an outside innovator will do it right and wipe out the established players....

    14. Re:Piracy! by arth1 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Here's the reason I rarely buy e-books: A used paper book is usually cheaper. On Amazon a used book is often only $0.01 (plus $3.99 shipping). When I am done reading it, I drop it off at the local Goodwill, which then sells it on Amazon.

      For me, it's not price, although I do think that e-books should be priced a lot cheaper because they cost a lot less to produce. No, the main reason is that I know that I'll still have the book I bought when I hit retirement. It's still readable.
      With e-books, I know no such thing.
      What I do know is that the books I bought in PeanutPress/eReader format (Peanutpress got bought by Palm who sold it to Motricity who sold it to Fictionwise who sold it to Barnes & Noble), I can no longer download or change the lock on. B&N killed it, with no compensation to the customers.
      They can't do that with paper books. They're mine, and will be readable in my retirement years too.

    15. Re:Piracy! by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 3, Informative

      Calibre.

      It can change your eBook format from pretty much any format to any other. I buy them, change the to ePub (unencrypted), and I'm good, forever.

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    16. Re:Piracy! by Clsid · · Score: 1

      Well I tried technical books on the Nook and the problem is that diagrams, code listings and graphics in general are messed up. Mind you, I have the e-ink version but what I found to be the most effective usage for me was to have the Nook around for the "reading" sections and use the Nook mac app with the book open, so I could Alt-Tab/Cmd-Tab any time while coding, copy and paste, etc. I also have an iPad mini so I ended up getting my technical books in that device and just have the Nook for actual reading. I would guess that the best setup that I coud get for technical books was to have a dual-monitor setup with Nook study opened in one, and whatever code editor in the other.

      But as far as the article is concerned, I still believe in e-books since I'm a person who so far, has lived in 3 different countries the past 5 years so it is a major hassle to get paper books and carry those around.

    17. Re:Piracy! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually it should be around 2 % of printed books. No typeset fees, no offset printing fees, etc. A print book that sells for 30 US$ should be no more than 3 US$ in digital form downloaded form the internet.
      Captcha: "unsteady" looks like "unstody"

    18. Re:Piracy! by c0d3g33k · · Score: 1

      Calibre.

      It can change your eBook format from pretty much any format to any other. I buy them, change the to ePub (unencrypted), and I'm good, forever.

      Right. At least for the small values of forever in which Kovid Goyal and contributors remain interested in the Calibre project enough to keep it going, after which you have to maintain the code yourself if you want it to keep working. And the small values of forever in which ePub is a supported format on the devices available to you when your old ones stop working.

      Calibre is a great piece of software. It is a fairly young piece of software, however, and could stop being a useful tool to you just as rapidly as it appeared.

      arth1 is right. NOTHING developed in the ebook world so far can rival the guaranteed longevity of the paper book format. The electronic world is ephemeral compared to the timescale of physical things. The ONLY thing working in your favor is that converting text-only material from the old readable format to the newest readable format will probably be fairly trivial, so you might be good, forever, but you probably won't be reading ePubs. And when you get tired of chasing the latest format, you will always be able to walk across the room, pull a book off the shelf and read it with no further effort.

    19. Re:Piracy! by Sun · · Score: 1

      That's assuming you're in the US. I live in Israel, and books I buy from Amazon are much more expensive in paper form, merely because of shipping costs. Since I bought my Kindle, all of my purchases (admitably, most of those were from the Humble Bundle) were in e-book form.

      Shachar

    20. Re:Piracy! by Miamicanes · · Score: 4, Interesting

      It's because ebooks are a piss poor substitute for paper books. They're underpowered, lack 2D acceleration relevant to font-rendering, tend to store data in flash that's connected via the slowest and least-random-access-agile means possible, and basically suck as a reading experience. I have lots of ebooks, most of which have never really been read because the readers piss me off and distract me too badly from the actual task of reading.

      Flipping pages feels like wading through wet concrete, and a computer-literate high school student circa 1990 probably did a better job laying out school papers in Pagemaker than most ebooks. Even pdf versions feel half-baked... like they just let some automated algorithm rip through the layout for the real book, and nobody bothered to make sure that the output actually looked good. I've seen ebooks from big-name technical publishers render with weird pdf errors (a random mangled unicode character, maybe a few characters where the kerning engine just vomited something vaguely resembling mashed-together text onto a page, etc).

      Epub tends to not have the mangled kerning and wacky rendering problems, but THOSE ebooks tend to just look like someone blindly converted the professionally-typeset book to html-like layout and let it land wherever random luck happened to reflow it.

      Then, there's Kindle... where even on a fast PC, flipping to random pages inexplicably brings the whole program to its knees for a second or two while it seemingly struggles to get its act together, and it just plain *intolerably* slow and laggy for random-access tech book reading.

      There's really no nicer way to say it... ebooks, in their current form, are a miserable failure for anything besides reading novels from start to finish. Much of it is just due to underpowered hardware. 2D text isn't sexy like photorealistic rendered 3D, but realtime font rendering at high quality is a demanding (and unappreciated) task in its own right. OpenGL desperately needs hardware-level support for spline acceleration, smoothing, hinting, and everything else. There are some interesting ways you can use OpenGL to render individual glyphs, but with all the ram and T&L processing they have, it's still not enough to pre-define complete triangle-based definitions for 3 font families in 4 styles (normal, bold, italic, bold+italic with even a single UTF-8 codepage, like the one corresponding to ISO-8859-1, let alone even a tiny subset of a language like Chinese.

      In a way, triangle-based high-quality font rendering vs photorealistic 3D is kind of like 720p60 vs 1080i60. People who don't understand what's going on behind the scenes tend to think the latter is a harder task, but when you do the real math, you quickly discover that it's actually the FIRST item in the pair that's the truly *demanding* task, simply because unlike the second item in the pair, the first generally doesn't allow you to cut corners and hide your sins... they get splattered in full public view for everyone to see, and there's nowhere to hide them.

    21. Re:Piracy! by Xicor · · Score: 2

      i buy e-textbooks because they are 90% cheaper than a real book. that being said, i would NEVER pay the same amount for an ebook as a hardcopy

    22. Re:Piracy! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do you have one of those almost magic page turning machines? I really couldn't be arsed doing that manually.

    23. Re:Piracy! by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      Actually it should be around 2 % of printed books. No typeset fees, no offset printing fees, etc. A print book that sells for 30 US$ should be no more than 3 US$ in digital form downloaded form the internet.

      Nope. The cost of manufacturing each copy might be lower, but the cost of building the content is much higher. With print, you produce the layout once, and you're done. You don't have to construct a single layout that works well with eighteen different printing houses, each of which has a wildly different set of quirks, because you're only sending it to one printing house.

      By contrast, it's very difficult to build a decent-looking eBook that works well with all of the wildly divergent reader platforms these days. If you remember the web back in the early 90s where every browser vendor was doing its best to climb over the other one while implementing things in subtly incompatible ways... well, it's like that, only now there's a formal specification that everyone claims to support while really ignoring it in subtly different and incompatible ways....

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    24. Re:Piracy! by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      Epub tends to not have the mangled kerning and wacky rendering problems, but THOSE ebooks tend to just look like someone blindly converted the professionally-typeset book to html-like layout and let it land wherever random luck happened to reflow it.

      Unless you're doing fixed-layout EPUB (a world of incompatible hurt) or using SVG per page (a world of not-quite-as-incompatible hurt), that's exactly what all modern eBook formats are—web pages, typically one per chapter. HTML lays out content differently depending on the screen, which is what makes it so much more usable than PDF, but only if layout does not actually matter. If it does, there's no good way to handle that unless you're doing fixed-layout content, which means you need to deliver separate versions of your book for each reader screen size.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    25. Re:Piracy! by dgatwood · · Score: 4, Informative

      Right. At least for the small values of forever in which Kovid Goyal and contributors remain interested in the Calibre project enough to keep it going, after which you have to maintain the code yourself if you want it to keep working.

      You don't need Calibre to convert it every time you read it. You do it once. Therefore, even if Calibre stops working in the future, that doesn't prevent you from using the books that you've already converted. Hence, "forever".

      And the small values of forever in which ePub is a supported format on the devices available to you when your old ones stop working.

      Ignoring a handful of special metadata files in their own quirky XML format, (DRM-free) EPUB is nothing more than a zipped folder full of HTML files and PNG/GIF/JPG images (and, occasionally, SVG). Given that HTML is now 23 years old and is still rapidly growing in popularity, and that ZIP is even slightly older, and that both are absolutely ubiquitous as technologies go, barring a technology-destroying nuclear holocaust or some similar catastrophe setting us all back to the stone age, I think it's safe to say that with minimal effort, you'll be able to continue reading EPUB books for at least the remainder of your lifetime, and probably for the remainder your grandchildren's lifetimes.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    26. Re:Piracy! by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      Slight correction. You won't be able to continue reading EPUB books for the remainder of your grandchildren's lifetimes; they will. Mea culpa.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    27. Re:Piracy! by k31bang · · Score: 1

      I do the same, except I use the book to heat my house after i'm done reading it.

      --
      -+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+ *** http://www.mountainfort.com *** +-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-=-+-
    28. Re:Piracy! by justthinkit · · Score: 1
      No. It was "We need to ban alcohol so that we can sew up a monopoly when, not if, we restore legality to alcohol sales."
      .

      The same thing is happening right now in the online poker world.

      BTW, why is "online" red-underlined by the slash?

      --
      I come here for the love
    29. Re:Piracy! by Immerman · · Score: 3, Insightful

      And *that* I think is the heart of the issue. Most publishers seem to charge as much or more for the ebook version, despite the fact that the incremental cost of an e-book approaches zero. Lets see some of those cost savings passed on to the consumer, and get rid of the ridiculous DRM that prevents me from actually owning the book, and then lets talk. In the meantime I'll stick to Project Gutenberg and DRM-free niche publishers.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    30. Re:Piracy! by Immerman · · Score: 2

      It's a book. It doesn't need any of the bling of a 90s web page, in fact most 90s (and 00s) web pages would have been better off without it too. Just a plain text file with minimal formatting, some metadata, and maybe an occasional picture thrown in. Do that and it'll work and look fine. Do you have fine control over appearance? No. The typesetting is done by the device, and that's okay. Very few people will consciously notice the difference between masterful typesetting and that done by some college halfwit, and if the device is halfway decent it will do a better job than the halfwit. And one of these days hopefully someone will decide to integrate something like the LATEX typesetting engine into an e-reader and give ebooks that subtle added beauty boost.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    31. Re:Piracy! by c0d3g33k · · Score: 1

      Given that HTML is now 23 years old and is still rapidly growing in popularity, and that ZIP is even slightly older, and that both are absolutely ubiquitous as technologies go

      HTML is rapidly growing in popularity (I presume you are referring to adoption rate amongst developers)? Yet absolutely ubiquitous (implying adoption by developers is 100%)? Make up your mind. :-D

    32. Re:Piracy! by Eponymous+Coward · · Score: 1

      I don't have a problem with ebooks being more expensive. For me, they are much more useful and thus more valuable. I'm willing to pay more for an electronic copy and so are a lot of people. In the end, that's what determines the price. The cost of the raw materials only establishes a floor beyond which the publishers will lose money. It has very little to do with the fair price.

      Every time I go into a Barnes and Noble store, it kills me that I can't buy ebooks for my Kindle there. The ideal bookstore for me would be one that I can browse the inventory, read part of the book, then take the book or a card to a register where they will send an ebook to my device or put it on a memory stick. Right now, I go into the store, find stuff I'm interested in, then buy it from Amazon. There's basically no way for me to support my local book stores because they don't sell anything I want.

    33. Re:Piracy! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So it's actually $4, except the seller sets the price to $0.01 in case someone wants to return something and they still get to keep the $3.99. It's an old scam.

      I'll never go back to dead tree books. They are far more wasteful, take up lots of physical space and don't have such conveniences as being able to perform searches, non-destructively annotate or instantly lend books to people across the world.

    34. Re:Piracy! by shellbeach · · Score: 1

      There's really no nicer way to say it... ebooks, in their current form, are a miserable failure for anything besides reading novels from start to finish.

      Um, I think reading novels (and non-fiction books) is the market. E-readers obviously can't replace reference works that you need to jump around randomly in -- page turns are far too slow on e-Ink.

      Much of it is just due to underpowered hardware. 2D text isn't sexy like photorealistic rendered 3D, but realtime font rendering at high quality is a demanding (and unappreciated) task in its own right.

      Why on earth would you need any better font rendering than freetype happily provides?

    35. Re:Piracy! by lsatenstein · · Score: 1

      It's piracy! We need to make reading a felony!

      ===
      its not piracy. Ebooks cant have me pass a yellow marker on some key text, or allow me to put commented post-its in the right pages, or allow me to put some physical bookmarks so I can look at a back page as well as the current one with hardly any effort. Yes, I like paper bound books the best.

      --
      Leslie Satenstein Montreal Quebec Canada
    36. Re:Piracy! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I work for a local used book store (largest in the state!) and this is exactly why those books are available for so cheap- book stores know that the only way to compete with e-books is to underprice them by a lot. But if we go quickly enough, we can make a profit off that $3.99 shipping and maybe even get a repeat customer.

    37. Re:Piracy! by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      By "growing in popularity", I mean that it is being used for more and more things. By ubiquitous, I mean that it is universally available to use because nearly every operating system in existence has built-in support for it. Those two statements are not contradictory at all. :-)

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    38. Re:Piracy! by dgatwood · · Score: 1

      At least for fiction books, if you use HTML with minimal formatting, you might as well provide a plain text file. That sort of defeats the purpose of using HTML and CSS in the first place, which is to have stylized, reflowing content.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    39. Re:Piracy! by Immerman · · Score: 1

      Indeed - and basic text reflow works just fine in plain text with a decent reader. Exactly how often have you read a book with any fancier formatting that perhaps some bold or italics in the chapter heading? Maybe a larger font if they're being really fancy? A poetry or children's book might have more sophisticated layout, but most novels are simply page after page of text with paragraph breaks the only "decoration". What exactly do all these fancy incompatible features offer to make up for their shortcomings?

      Meanwhile what's the alternative? Try to provide manual reflow for all possible font- and screen-size combinations? To what end?

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    40. Re: Piracy! by Misterfixit · · Score: 0

      I have a couple hundred on my Kindle, all schlocky SciFi stuff by unknown but pretty good writers. Kindle's DRM was an issue at first -- I mean what if my Kindle dies and/or other problems. You can't xfer a book to another portable platform according to their DRM protocols. I have since found the way to transfer them and now have saved with Calibre in case I want them on my iPad. I understand the raison d'Ãtre for DRMing but choose to keep my books in spite of they being on "rented".

      --
      nar
    41. Re:Piracy! by arth1 · · Score: 1

      Calibre.

      It can change your eBook format from pretty much any format to any other

      Exccept encrypted PeanutPress format It can do unencrypted, but not encrypted. Why this matters? From 1999 until 2006 or so, it was by far the most successful e-book format in the world.

    42. Re:Piracy! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're not far off. Since DRM has restricted books so much, people don't find them useful. The "new car spell" has worn off e-books and the market is looking for usability/functionality now, and ebooks don't hack it.

    43. Re:Piracy! by Phoghat · · Score: 2

      and get rid of the ridiculous DRM that prevents me from actually owning the book, and then lets talk. In the meantime I'll stick to Project Gutenberg and DRM-free niche publishers.

      Remove DRM, organize your library and all for free with Calibre

      --
      Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.
    44. Re:Piracy! by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

      BTW, why is "online" red-underlined by the slash?

      What is where underlined? I don't see anything underlined.

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    45. Re:Piracy! by justthinkit · · Score: 1

      When you type in the comment box on your machine, it will red-underline typos. Online is red-underlined (even now) on my computer. It (the red) does not show after the word is posted to a thread.

      --
      I come here for the love
    46. Re:Piracy! by Immerman · · Score: 1

      Indeed, a lovely program that I use faithfully (for those unfamiliar with it it's kind of like itunes for ebooks, minus the storefront)

      But I'm not going to give somebody money for an ebook that I then have to commit a criminal act on (stripping DRM) in order to actually own. I'd much rather wait a month or two and pick up a your new book used at a second-hand store or coffeeshop for a buck or two, and then be able to loan it to friends, give it away, etc. If ebooks were priced comparably to used books I *might* consider buying DRMed stuff, and if they also dropped the DRM they could make a lot of money off me, but as it stands I'm part of the reason major publishers aren't doing that well with ebooks. I won't pay a premium price for a crippled product, period.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    47. Re:Piracy! by Doghouse13 · · Score: 1

      For me, it's not price, although I do think that e-books should be priced a lot cheaper because they cost a lot less to produce. No, the main reason is that I know that I'll still have the book I bought when I hit retirement. It's still readable. With e-books, I know no such thing. What I do know is that the books I bought in PeanutPress/eReader format (Peanutpress got bought by Palm who sold it to Motricity who sold it to Fictionwise who sold it to Barnes & Noble), I can no longer download or change the lock on. B&N killed it, with no compensation to the customers. They can't do that with paper books. They're mine, and will be readable in my retirement years too.

      Yeesss... you'll still have it provided you buy hardbacks. Far too many paperbacks made since about 1960 have been printed on paper high in acidity, resulting in the glue failing after a few years.

      I still have many, many books I've bought over the years. Sadly, far too many of my favourites are pretty much just loose piles of paper now. But I agree with your general point; I don't entirely trust my ebooks to still be available, with confidence, in even 5 years, let alone in 20. And for books I expect to keep and reread, I'd rather have hard-copy.

    48. Re:Piracy! by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

      I didn't understand what you meant by "by the slash", if you meant slashcode, since this is strictly a browser feature. Simply add the word into your dictionary and you're done.

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    49. Re:Piracy! by wolja · · Score: 1

      Yes. Of course the cartel, oops the publishers, demanding Amazon increase the price of E-books year or so ago hasn't helped. Why an E-Book should be around the same price as a hardbook is beyond me given there is no printing, binding, lesser storage or shipping costs.

      --
      Wolja Future Tombstone: Shit happened then I died
    50. Re:Piracy! by demonrob · · Score: 1

      If you send extra power into your scanner you can burn away each page as you copy them. Just make sure you bury the carbon ash after, you don't want that in the atmosphere.

    51. Re:Piracy! by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

      I don't sell books all that often. But yeah, I'm planning to change the workflow a bit.

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    52. Re:Piracy! by Miamicanes · · Score: 1

      Because freetype is wet-concrete SLOW on the typical low-end ARM hardware behind most tablet-like e-readers. The problem isn't that it can't look *good*, the fundamental problem is that you can't flip virtual pages like Wyle E. Coyote reading an Acme catalog with effortless, lag-free, effortless fluidity containing type that was laid out and rendered on the fly.

      With current hardware, there are basically two ways to achieve sub-5ms page-flipping:

      * quadcore i7 @ 2.5GHz+, 4GB ram, SATA3 SSD, IPS LCD

      * ~1GHz dualcore ARM9 w/12GB ram, multi-terabyte-sized SATA3 SSD, and IPS LCD, so you can pre-render eBooks to raw bitmaps in their entirety, and keep the mostly cached in RAM. The terabytes of space are required because lossy compression isn't acceptable for compressing text images (at least, not JPEG). Oh, you can definitely take a few liberties to whack what would otherwise be a pre-rendered 1920x1080 4-byte bitmap down to something half the size, but you're still going to be shoveling around a MINIMUM of 2 megabytes of raw data per pre-rendered page, and shoveling ~6-8 megabytes of data into framebuffer ram every 5-10ms to achieve 60fps .

      The first hypothetical e-reader (a.k.a. a fairly hefty desktop PC) would be beefy enough to render the ebook with lag-free immediacy in high quality in realtime. The second would hopefully be fast enough to present the illusion that it's equivalent to #1 by pre-rendering entire books in advance to minimally-compressed bitmaps that could be cached in ram, and read in near-realtime from a SSD if necessary.

      No current e-ink display could come anywhere close to satisfying those kind of update-speed requirements. Until somebody makes an e-ink display that divides the screen up into zones and allows them to be cleared & redrawn in parallel, there won't be an e-ink display that truly allows satisfying interactive reading.

      MicroSD won't cut it, except maybe as a place to keep the original pdf file before it gets pre-rendered to bitmaps stored on the SSD & cached in the huge ram buffer. Nor will the absurd 200-500MHz ARM CPUs that currently underpower pretty much every hardware e-reader on the market, let alone their miserly amounts of ram.

      Text is not "just text". There's a world of difference between rendering quick & nasty output to a fake terminal screen, and rendering typeset-quality text with professional layout and publishing standards to a LCD that's sufficiently high-res for its physical resolution to be almost irrelevant.

      Reflowed text is a cancer. The publishing industry needs to do at least 3 layouts:

      * large-format 9:16, intended for reading on displays that are ~7-9" diagonal and 1920x1080 or better.

      * small-format 9:16, intended for reading on displays that are ~4-5" diagonal and 1280x720 or better... or 2-up viewing on a large-format reader.

      * epub, for "everything else", as distant & ugly "Plan C" when the first two formats can't be properly viewed.

      Ideally, an ebook format should encapsulate all three layouts, so the end user can pick the one he thinks will render the best on his device. Note that I'm not saying the ebook format itself should encapsulate the pages in rendered-bitmap form, just that it should recognize that the way you lay out things like a table will likely differ for the small-format ebook. Think of it as starting with epub, then heavily-tweaking it page by page to optimize its presentation for the large format, then manually-redoing things like illustrations and tables wholesale for the small-format version.

    53. Re:Piracy! by Miamicanes · · Score: 1

      > If it does, there's no good way to handle that unless you're doing fixed-layout content, which means
      > you need to deliver separate versions of your book for each reader screen size.

      Yes. And for technical books, layout *does* matter, and I'd argue quite forcefully that publishers *do* need to lay out at least two different versions... one for pocket-sized displays, and one for larger ~7"-ish displays... with a third variant that assumes 2-up viewing on a larger display, with occasional charts and illustrations that span 2 full pages and the full display size (ie, 7" layout in 2-up form on a ~10" display with larger tables/charts, or 4" layout in 2-up form on a ~7" display with occasional page-spanning tables/charts).

    54. Re:Piracy! by AbsGeekNZ · · Score: 1

      I love calibre, and yes selling an ebook for the same price as the tree meat version is utterly retarded....did they learn nothing fom what happened to and is largely still happening to the music industry......stupid publishers.

  2. Definitions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I think the word you're looking for is "plateaued". Does no-one do calculus any more?

    1. Re: Definitions by dnadoc · · Score: 1

      And it's not "ebook sales", it should read "ebook rental license" since you don't own the ebook like you do an actual book.

    2. Re: Definitions by CanHasDIY · · Score: 2

      And it's not "ebook sales", it should read "ebook rental license" since you don't own the ebook like you do an actual book.

      Which probably explains, in large part, why sales are plateauing.

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    3. Re: Definitions by Austerity+Empowers · · Score: 2

      There are programs out there that help you solve that problem.

    4. Re: Definitions by Obfuscant · · Score: 1

      And it's not "ebook sales", it should read "ebook rental license" since you don't own the ebook like you do an actual book.

      Depends on the book. I have lots of them I own, and many of them and others aren't in readers that the distributor controls, so they can't take them back. Mobiread is one place to get good old books in many formats. Analog Science Fiction, Asimov's, and Ellery Queen are distributed by B&N in non-DRM epub format.

      I wonder how much the library loan of ebooks has cut into sales? There are many books I borrow that I might have bought, and some of the ones I borrow I am very glad I borrowed first.

      Others have mentioned readability on specific readers or in general. A large drawback I find in ebooks is that the ones that are self-published are often really awful, even beyond the storylines and plots. I've seen some self-published Sci-Fi that was unreadable because of comma-itis and poor grammar. I mean, commas in so many places that it actually made the sentences meaningless. After someone buys a few of these clunkers, they may be hesitant to buy anything more.

  3. Disappearance of E-Ink by ElementOfDestruction · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Vendors are flogging tablets over E-ink; why get a one trick pony when you can have a multi-tasker.

    Truth is, the one-trick pony feels much better on the eyes after reading for any extended amount of time. Staring at a backlit LCD just burns out your retinas, and changes reading from a relaxing experience to a tolerable situation.

    1. Re:Disappearance of E-Ink by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They are talking about the sale of ebooks - not readers like nook or kindle. Tablet users still purchase ebooks.

    2. Re:Disappearance of E-Ink by pegasustonans · · Score: 0

      Vendors are flogging tablets over E-ink; why get a one trick pony when you can have a multi-tasker.

      Truth is, the one-trick pony feels much better on the eyes after reading for any extended amount of time. Staring at a backlit LCD just burns out your retinas, and changes reading from a relaxing experience to a tolerable situation.

      Exactly this.

      Even the new Kindle Paperwhite is meant to be used with a backlight, increasing the likelihood of headaches and eyestrain.

      Unfortunately, this is one of those cases where people just aren't informed enough as an aggregate to realize the advantages of non-backlit e-ink for reading.

      The market demands tablets with outlandishly bright backlights, and companies provide them.

      --
      And all our yesterdays have lighted fools The way to dusty death. --Will
    3. Re:Disappearance of E-Ink by king+neckbeard · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Yes, but what you read it on greatly influences your experience.

      --
      This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
    4. Re:Disappearance of E-Ink by i+kan+reed · · Score: 1

      It'll normalize when the tablet fad is over. Smartphones are better tablets than tablets are.

    5. Re:Disappearance of E-Ink by rolfwind · · Score: 2

      As for the Kindle Paperwhite....I read that there is little difference between reflected light (off a page) and one coming from behind a page like paper white. Of course, you can do something like not have enough ambient lighting and it would be like staring at a (low powered) light bulb in a dark room, but barring that, why would there be eyestrain and headaches? Of course, there's no constant refresh rates of the text like a LCD screen, except for the backlights which all CFL/LED lighting is subject to. I assume people can read at night with energy saving lightbulb without too much bother?

      The real reason to me to get a kindle over a table for reading is simply the weight difference. The tablets I held would be uncomfortable compared to a 6" kindle which easily weighs the same as or less than a fiction paperback.

    6. Re:Disappearance of E-Ink by cruff · · Score: 1

      The real reason to me to get a kindle over a table for reading is simply the weight difference. The tablets I held would be uncomfortable compared to a 6" kindle which easily weighs the same as or less than a fiction paperback.

      Exactly. I recently picked up a Nook HD after B&N slashed the price. It is much heavier than my 2nd gen Kindle. So while the Nook displays color and updates the screen much faster, it is more wearying to hold for extended periods and is harder on my eyes than the Kindle for extended periods of time, and is almost unusable outside in the sun. The upside of the Nook is that I can view PDFs and web pages in a reasonable fashion, where those tasks are just painful on the Kindle.

    7. Re:Disappearance of E-Ink by cusco · · Score: 2

      No in a hundred years. I tried reading a book on my phone, and it was a miserable experience. I see people on the bus doing it, but having to scroll constantly is very annoying. I like the form factor of the Nexus 7, if I could make it my phone and just use the bluetooth headset I'd be a happy camper.

      --
      "Think about how stupid the average person is. Now, realise that half of them are dumber than that." - George Carlin
    8. Re:Disappearance of E-Ink by Hadlock · · Score: 1

      Or, why buy a second e-ink reader when the first one works just fine? My e-ink tablet goes about a month on a charge and since it's effectively a static image viewer. My android devices get slower or worse battery life as time goes by and I need to replace it every 2-3 years to keep up with the pace of technology.
       
      My e-ink tablet on the other hand, will continue displaying books until the battery gives out in 4-5 years.

      --
      moox. for a new generation.
    9. Re:Disappearance of E-Ink by CanHasDIY · · Score: 1

      It'll normalize when the tablet fad is over. Smartphones are better tablets than tablets are.

      I dunno, man - if I'm going to bother trying to read a document on a mobile device, I find it much easier to do with the Nexus 7 than my (4.5" screen) Droid X.

      Maybe once they figure out the whole 'holographic screen projection' thing, or flexible OLEDs get to a low enough price point that it makes sense to build phones around them...

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    10. Re:Disappearance of E-Ink by Nicros · · Score: 1

      Actually, the kindle paperwhite doesn't use backlight, it uses a light guide, or kind of a flattened fiber optic cable that redirects the light down onto the page.. Maybe not exactly like direct lighting but closer than led backlight. Or so they say.

    11. Re:Disappearance of E-Ink by CanHasDIY · · Score: 1

      The upside of the Nook is that I can view PDFs and web pages in a reasonable fashion, where those tasks are just painful on the Kindle.

      Plus, considering the weight, it makes a much better cudgel than the Kindle. You know - just in case.

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    12. Re:Disappearance of E-Ink by Wordplay · · Score: 4, Informative

      Even the new Kindle Paperwhite is meant to be used with a backlight, increasing the likelihood of headaches and eyestrain.

      Unfortunately, this is one of those cases where people just aren't informed enough

      ...for example, they think that the Kindle Paperwhite is backlit.

      It's sidelit. That means the light comes from the front, diffused across the screen via a fiber optic mesh, reflects on the screen, and then back at you.

      It doesn't have any of the problems that backlit devices do, and is extremely similar to reading with a booklight--except for the not having to carry a booklight part.

      Nook Glow is the same basic tech.

    13. Re:Disappearance of E-Ink by msauve · · Score: 4, Informative

      As for the Kindle Paperwhite.... there is zero difference between reflected light (off a page), because the Paperwhite is not backlit. There's a diffuser sheet on top of the screen, and the built-in light reflects off the e-ink display the same as room light does.

      --
      "National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
    14. Re:Disappearance of E-Ink by Gilmoure · · Score: 1

      Just illustrated Edgar Rice Burroughs books off course!

      --
      I drank what? -- Socrates
    15. Re:Disappearance of E-Ink by NeoMorphy · · Score: 1

      No in a hundred years. I tried reading a book on my phone, and it was a miserable experience. I see people on the bus doing it, but having to scroll constantly is very annoying. I like the form factor of the Nexus 7, if I could make it my phone and just use the bluetooth headset I'd be a happy camper.

      There are readers that have the option to automatically scroll for you. If you can read an entire line without moving your eyes and have it scroll at the right speed you can speed read a book with less eye movement.

    16. Re:Disappearance of E-Ink by SnarfQuest · · Score: 0

      The Kindle usually has an advantage over the other tablets in battery lifetime. The kindle lasts for days, where a tablet lasts for hours. This is important if you don't live 6" from a power outlet.

      --
      Who would win this election: Andrew Weiner vs Andrew Weiner's weiner.
    17. Re:Disappearance of E-Ink by mark-t · · Score: 1

      If all you're reading is novels, sure...

      Myself, I prefer to read textbooks. Many of these even utilize color diagrams

      Of course, I realize I'm probably not within a sigma of typical e-ink readers manufacturers target demographic.

      Give me a color ereader with a form factor large enough to read academic material (roughly letter or A4 size) without scrolling or panning that doesn't feel like I'm reading while staring into a flashlight while I'm holding it 12 inches from my face, and with a fast enough update speed that don't notice any delays when I'm flipping pages and I'll move to it in a heartbeat.

    18. Re:Disappearance of E-Ink by jaseuk · · Score: 1

      I read my Kindle Books on my iPhone 4, I don't find it a miserable experience at all.

      Jason.

    19. Re:Disappearance of E-Ink by zAPPzAPP · · Score: 1

      The paperwhite with backlight on is only for reading in a situation with dim lighting.
      Which is has always been an eye-strainer, even with conventional books.
      At least with the backlight, you have the option to increase lighting a bit. Not as comfortable as natural lighting, but better than reading a book with little light.

      However, when there is ambient light, the backlighting of the paperwhite adds almost nothing.It looks exactly the same on a sunny day outside, sitting in the shades, with backlight on 100% and 0%. It looks like a piece of paper, readable, but not glowing.

      So it is not meant to be used with a backlight.
      but you have the option to do so.

    20. Re:Disappearance of E-Ink by mark-t · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The problem isn't backlighting, per se... it has to do with the difference between how bright what you are looking at is lit compared to ambient lighting... the pupils in your eyes adjust according to how much light they are receiving, and if what you are looking at is too much more brightly lit than your surroundings, it's going to feel like you are reading while staring into a flashlight. If, however (mostly because of limitations in most current backlit display technologies), the display is not brightly lit, then there will not be enough contrast on the display to actually read it. LCD readers which try to adjust their brightness dynamically based on surrounding lighting might mitigate this to a certain extent, but they are still only usable within a relatively narrow range of lighting conditions compared to what conditions a person could comfortably read a book in.

    21. Re:Disappearance of E-Ink by noh8rz10 · · Score: 1

      i read a book on a bus once and barfed.

    22. Re:Disappearance of E-Ink by RDW · · Score: 1

      Am I the only one who reads mostly on a phone, in night mode (even in daylight)? Good contrast without that feeling of having a flashlight shone in your eyes, hardly any weight to support with your hands, and nothing else to carry around. To me, this is the iPod for books.

    23. Re:Disappearance of E-Ink by innocent_white_lamb · · Score: 1

      When I read a book I read it at varying speeds. Some stuff I read very quickly, but clever phrasing or a complex description causes me to slow down. Sometimes I re-read the same paragraph or sentence several times either to figure out what the author is saying or simply to continue the amusement.

      Auto-scrolling might be ok for some things, but not for book reading.

      --
      If you're a zombie and you know it, bite your friend!
    24. Re:Disappearance of E-Ink by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The Kindle Paperwhite could be great if it weren't paperWHITE. An amber-colored backlight would be much nicer on the eyes.

    25. Re:Disappearance of E-Ink by foniksonik · · Score: 1

      Apple devices auto adjust to ambient light. Works great as long as the ambient light isn't changing too much but then that's going to be annoying no matter what.

      --
      A fool throws a stone into a well and a thousand sages can not remove it.
    26. Re:Disappearance of E-Ink by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You do realize the Kindle Paperwhite is frontlit, and not a backlit right?

    27. Re:Disappearance of E-Ink by Jeremy+Erwin · · Score: 1

      There are readers that have the option to automatically scroll for you. If you can read an entire line without moving your eyes and have it scroll at the right speed you can speed read a book with less eye movement.

      You may even be able to read one handed though I'd suggest that you refrain from doing so while on a public bus.

    28. Re:Disappearance of E-Ink by mark-t · · Score: 1

      Apple devices are still not particularly usable in sunlit conditions.

    29. Re:Disappearance of E-Ink by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, maybe if they come up with high-contrast e-ink screens. I need to take a look at the Kobo Aura HD, but the Perl e-ink screen in the Kobo Glo (which I understand to be second only to the absurd e-ink screen in the Aura and probably the whiter one in paperwhite kindle) has an annoying light gray tone for "white", which decreases contrast way too much. During daylight it is fine, but at night I find myself turning the lightguide (at low power, 40%) to increase contrast, even with overhead (ambient) confort-level (i.e. not dim) lighting.

      It is MUCH better than reading in a LCD screen, though. Even my IPS monitors are not that nice. Now, if only we had a FLOSS firmware worth something to use that we could fix faster than Kobo does...

    30. Re:Disappearance of E-Ink by aaaaaaargh! · · Score: 1

      Moreover, for some people even the largest e-ink readers have too small displays, so they aren't buying any e-books at all.

      For example, I'm reading mostly technical texts with lots of formulas. Until there is a large enough e-ink reader that can gracefully display any PDF without zooming, I'll have to stick with traditional books. I already have thousands of them so a few more won't hurt (that's what I tell myself when I order them, until I have to move...)

    31. Re:Disappearance of E-Ink by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There are plenty of A4 readers...
      Ofcorse that parpers have small font on A4, so they also have it small on E-ink.

      But that will eventually change with the increase of digital distribution popularity. epub 3.0 standard includes MathPL.

    32. Re:Disappearance of E-Ink by JaredOfEuropa · · Score: 1

      So I thought as well... But a good high-res screen does make a difference. I hated reading books on the older model iPad but on the iPad 3 it's fine, and that is what I use most of the time. It does perform poorly in bright sunlight, so on holidays I still take my old iRex reader which has a nice 8" e-ink screen. That's another advantage of tablets: the screens tend to be larger and for prolonged reading, 6" doesn't cut it.

      By the way, I still buy all my non-fiction on dead trees. These are books that I am more likely to scribble in, re-read, or lend to friends. Works of fiction I read once, then they end up on the shelf... it is nice having all these books sitting there but in truth I rarely read any of them a second time, and few people borrow them. These days all my fiction is in the form of ebooks.

      --
      If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
    33. Re:Disappearance of E-Ink by R3d+M3rcury · · Score: 1

      I tried reading a book on my phone, and it was a miserable experience. I see people on the bus doing it, but having to scroll constantly is very annoying.

      Again, it's the trade-off of size versus convenience.

      I have a couple of books on my iPhone and I'll be the first to agree that reading is far from optimal. On the other hand, my phone is always with me so that convenience makes up for the hassle. I probably won't drag an e-reader or tablet around with me on the off-chance that I find myself with 20 minutes of thumb-twiiddling to do.

      But if I was lying in a hammock on a lazy Sunday afternoon, I wouldn't put up with it, agreed.

    34. Re:Disappearance of E-Ink by rolfwind · · Score: 2

      You can adjust the brightness of the Kindle Paperwhite.

    35. Re:Disappearance of E-Ink by arth1 · · Score: 1

      My sentiments exactly.

      Plus that your eyes get less tired reading text that is still than text that moves.
      TV channels in countries that do subtitles instead of dubbing tried scrolling text. Three lines at the bottom would scroll up, and everybody (that is, producers and pundits) said what a brilliant idea it was. It didn't last long. Fixed line subtitles came back.

    36. Re:Disappearance of E-Ink by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      I... don't... think... I... read... words... one... at... a... time...

      I feel like I read text in chunks, even starting to read to the next line before my brain is done processing the last chunk. I think that is why I shrink down my web browser to less than full-screen... it is less comfortable to read long lines of text.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    37. Re:Disappearance of E-Ink by Goghit · · Score: 1

      Yeah, I quite liked my eReader for extended reading. What brought my eBook purchasing to a screaming halt was the eReader's death a week after the warranty expired. Even if it had lasted another 6 months or a year before the battery required replacement I'm not sure I want to pay a $120 replacement tax every 18 months just to keep reading the stuff I've already bought.

      And then there's the inflated eBook prices, breaking DRM to transfer between devices, non-transferability, etc., etc.

      Fuck that. Back to dead trees, and loving it.

    38. Re:Disappearance of E-Ink by geminidomino · · Score: 1

      Night mode is an eyesaver. I mostly read in bed, and the lack of a bedside lamp means getting back up to turn off the light at 3am (defeating the purpose of 'reading myself to sleep') if I use my old e-ink reader, or using the backlit Nook Color.

      Switch FBReader to Night mode, and the latter wins hands down.

    39. Re:Disappearance of E-Ink by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Even the new Kindle Paperwhite is meant to be used with a backlight, increasing the likelihood of headaches and eyestrain.

      No, the Paperwhite readers (and Kobo Glo) use frontlighting not backlighting. Much less eye-strain, and one research study suggests less disruptive to sleep when used in the evening.

      You are right about the advantages of non-backlit e-ink for reading.

    40. Re:Disappearance of E-Ink by Clsid · · Score: 2

      Not to mention that the amazing battery life is something that I really enjoy from e-ink devices. I truly believe that with e-ink devices we are facing the situation of the very good light bulb, it became so good that afterwards nobody wanted to replace it, so the factory had to shut down.

    41. Re:Disappearance of E-Ink by Clsid · · Score: 1

      I felt exactly the same way until my girlfriend gave me an iPad mini as a present. I was totally like, I can still do this with my phone, arghh I have to buy the HD version now, etc. But now I'm totally hooked. The way you interface with the device is one of the major reasons, all those crazy finger gestures like using five fingers to close an app, etc. It's what Microsoft wanted Windows 8 to be I believe. Plus I got the 3G version which has been very convenient.

      So all in all, I think my devices setup will end up being, a good desktop computer with badass screen, a tablet like the iPad mini or Nexus 7 and a smartphone. No more laptops for me, unless I truly have to start coding on the road or something.

    42. Re:Disappearance of E-Ink by Totenglocke · · Score: 1

      Actually, I've found that the problem with LCD screens only happens when reading on a low resolution screen. I used to have an Archos 101 Turbo G9 tablet with a fairly average resolution and didn't like reading on it much. Once I got a Galaxy S4 at 1920x1080 and later one of the new Nexus 7's at 1920x1200 resolution, I no longer have any problem reading on a phone / tablet for extended periods of time. In fact, I usually read a few hours a day (in a row) on my tablet now.

      --
      "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." ~Thomas Jefferson
    43. Re:Disappearance of E-Ink by cusco · · Score: 1

      I lived for years with a pocket watch hanging off my belt (for some reason I couldn't wear wrist watches). If I had the choice to make it my primary cell phone I'd make a similar holster for my Nexus 7 and just use it with my bluetooth headset. In a couple of years hardware is going to catch up to the point where it can replace my laptop as well (I don't do any CPU or memory intensive work to speak of). At that point, for me anyway, the future will have arrived.

      --
      "Think about how stupid the average person is. Now, realise that half of them are dumber than that." - George Carlin
    44. Re:Disappearance of E-Ink by zippthorne · · Score: 1

      Why one or the other? May people read novels AND textbooks. They don't have to be the same device, it's not like you need a second mortgage to get a 6 or 7" eBook reader to compliment a large format, color e-reader (although the color ones are taking their sweet time to come to market...) for textbooks.

      In fact, I'd venture to guess that the set of people who read novels intersects more strongly with the set of people who read textbooks than either one does with the people who don't read the other one.

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
    45. Re:Disappearance of E-Ink by TitusC3v5 · · Score: 1

      Have you tried an e-ink reader? The difference between reading a book on your phone and reading one on a dedicated e-reader is vast. The difference is similar to watching a movie on your television as compared to watching the same movie on your phone - the difference is vast.

      --
      And the masses cried out, "09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0!"
    46. Re:Disappearance of E-Ink by Miamicanes · · Score: 1

      e-ink will never be viable for random-access tech books until they improve the controllers, the same way they improved STN LCD displays 20 years ago... by dividing the screen into smaller pieces that be cleared and rewritten in parallel. Current i-ink displays were optimized for cost and low power consumption to the detriment of everything else. 700ms latency is flat-out unacceptable for tech books. Even 100ms latency is perceptibly slow. To capture the lag-free spontaneous feel of a paper book, they have to get the time to wipe and re-render a page down to 5ms or less. 10 ms will nag at you occasionally, kind of like CRT flicker seen via peripheral vision. 25ms destroys the sense of effortless flowing. 50ms becomes downright irritating. 100ms is the point where lag and latency start to really annoy you. 700ms? Slogging through wet concrete.

      Three words for e-ink display manufacturers: divide and conquer. At current 700ms rewrite speeds, achieving anything CLOSE to 5ms rewrite speeds is going to require somewhere between 128 and 256 parallel controllers, each responsible for rewriting 3-6 rows apiece.And before anyone mentions power... when it comes to e-ink, comparing a 256-controller display to a LCD is kind of like comparing a 150-watt multi-element LED array to a 500-1000 watt halogen torchiere that throws off comparable amounts of light at similar quality. Yes, the high-quality 150 watt light is a power hog compared to a 15 watt bulb with the color quality of a 1940s T40 fluorescent tube, but it's still a tiny fraction of the power used by a lamp that can do double-duty as a space heater or marshmallow-toaster. And in between rewrites, it would take no power at all, just like current e-ink. The increased power would apply only during active rewrites.

      For tech books, it would also make sense to draw upon ideas from other technologies, like pentile color and bichromatic Technicolor. Current full-color e-ink looks muddy and gray, because most of the surface area is taken up by cyan, magenta, and yellow subpixels that reflect muddy color-tinged gray when combined. Suppose instead someone made color e-ink readers that dedicated most of their surface area to black/white, but alternated slivers of red with a slight orange tint and green with a slight blue tint. The net effect would be color that wasn't photorealistic, but would do a decent job of color for technical books, and would have approximately the color quality that American newspapers used to have before USA Today raised the stakes in the early 80s.

    47. Re:Disappearance of E-Ink by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why, oh why does this ungrammatical post deserve a +2 Mod. /. has fallen into the cesspool of mediocrity.

    48. Re:Disappearance of E-Ink by Miamicanes · · Score: 1

      > I feel like I read text in chunks

      Actually, it's been scientifically proven that you *do*. Even though English is nominally based upon letters and spelling, native speakers read by word shape, not letters or graphemes.

      At the brain signal processing level, English is read and interpreted EXACTLY the same way that Chinese is. The only difference is that when a native English reader trips over an unfamiliar word, he tries to sound it out phonetically. When a native Chinese reader trips over an unfamiliar character, he breaks it down into "is-like/sounds-like" pieces (ie, Cat == "is-ClawedBeast, sounds-like meow". Mother == "is-woman, sounds-like ma".) Either way, if your native language is English or Chinese, the way your brain interpretes it is exactly the same regardless of which language you grew up speaking.

      That's why you can often completely *mangle* an English sentence, but as long as you get the first & last letters of each word right, and the middle letters don't deviate TOO badly from what they're supposed to be, you can still read it. It's also why it's so hard to proofread your own writing... your brain knows what it's supposed to say, and as long as the word shapes are approximately right, you don't notice minor misspellings.

      This is also why serif fonts are generally easier to read than sans-serif fonts, and why kerned text is easier to read than monospaced text. At the end of the day, an English word printed in Times New Roman (or some comparable font) really isn't all that different from a Chinese character... and a German sentence is even LESS different from a Chinese sentence [Chinese, like German, is polysynthetic... it creates new words by agglutination (combining old words into new, longer combinations to name new concepts)].

    49. Re:Disappearance of E-Ink by mark-t · · Score: 1

      I don't generally read novels... that was my point.

      And a 6" or 7" diagonal is still way too tiny for textbooks. It needs to be sport at least about a 10" diagonal or so to be readable.

    50. Re:Disappearance of E-Ink by Baki · · Score: 1

      The Nexus 7 (old model, haven't got the new one yet) is a really good e-book reader (e.g. with kindle app). It is so small and light that it is easy to keep in one hand and read. Unlike my Kindle and ipad, who both are too big and heavy to hold in one hand while reading i.e. for longer periods of time.

    51. Re:Disappearance of E-Ink by harlows_monkeys · · Score: 3, Funny

      No, the Paperwhite readers (and Kobo Glo) use frontlighting not backlighting. Much less eye-strain, and one research study suggests less disruptive to sleep when used in the evening.

      My Kindle Paperwhite is much less disruptive to sleep than my iPad, but it has nothing to do with the lighting. It has to do with the weight. The iPad is heavy enough that falling asleep and dropping it on my face hurts enough to wake me up. The Kindle is light enough that I can take one to the face and keep sleeping.

    52. Re:Disappearance of E-Ink by ZorinLynx · · Score: 1

      I dunno, reading on an iPad 4 retina display with the brightness turned down, in dim ambient light is about as relaxing as it gets.

      I actually prefer it to paper books. You can get into any position you like without worrying about where the light is hitting the page from.

    53. Re:Disappearance of E-Ink by rcharbon · · Score: 1

      Mod this up! I'm going on a bike trip tomorrow with my e-ink Kindle. I will have more books than I need, little risk of cracking the screen, and no need to carry a charger. All in my small handlebar bag.

    54. Re:Disappearance of E-Ink by aaaaaaargh! · · Score: 1

      There are plenty of A4 readers...

      Where? One DIN A4 page is 8.27 x 11.69 inch. I've heard about prototypes, but haven't seen a single e-ink reader of this size so far anywhere, neither in shops nor on the Net as a product that can actually be purchased. Readers of this size don't exist.

      Regarding epub formats, as a researcher at university I'm reading "professionally" - I absolutely need the original pagination. PDF is a must. I'm not even sure whether ebook formats can be referenced/quoted at all and certainly have never seen references to them in a journal. PDFs yes, other formats, No.

    55. Re:Disappearance of E-Ink by UziBeatle · · Score: 1

      Dmn, nd hr I am out of mod pnts.

        This pst is qiute infrmativ.

        Wht hte hekc is worng wthi my kyeborad?

      --
      Something between the lines jumps out and bites your arm off. Soltan Gris / London
    56. Re:Disappearance of E-Ink by shellbeach · · Score: 1

      The real reason to me to get a kindle over a table for reading is simply the weight difference. The tablets I held would be uncomfortable compared to a 6" kindle which easily weighs the same as or less than a fiction paperback.

      Dunno ... a nexus 7 is pretty light. Personally, the reason I still use a kindle is because of the battery life. If tablets ever ran for a couple of months without needing a recharge then I might consider swapping.

      Thankfully, neither a kindle nor a 7" tablet is particularly bulky or heavy, so when I travel I carry both.

    57. Re:Disappearance of E-Ink by jbenwell · · Score: 1

      Even the new Kindle Paperwhite is meant to be used with a backlight, increasing the likelihood of headaches and eyestrain.

      Nope. It's got a front light.

      http://www.extremetech.com/electronics/137158-amazon-sheds-new-light-on-kindle-paperwhite-display

    58. Re:Disappearance of E-Ink by stasike · · Score: 1

      Well, the ideal line length for printed text is 56 characters, or some similar number, depending on what study you read. In practice this of course varies for practical reasons, but a text in a well typeset book is seldom longer than 75 characters. Just grab a random book and count 'em. If the page is wider, the [well laid-out text] is usually broken into columns. When the line is shorter, the gaps between words are too uneven in case the text is full justified (needed for columns) and the eyes have to skip too much. When the line is much longer, then the eye has problems tracing back from right to left the the beginning of the next line. Six inch e-ink displays have size close to ideal, from the length-of-line point of view. But you have to set margins smaller than they are set on the out-of-the-box Kindle. Typical Kindle and other books have other problems, like lack of hyphenation, which makes the gaps between words too uneven with the [default] full justification.

  4. Sure... by Mashiki · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Because they're charging the same price as a paperback, or hardcover, sometimes even more.

    --
    Om, nomnomnom...
    1. Re:Sure... by RazzleFrog · · Score: 2

      I don't find that to be the case - at least with nook. Nooks are almost always cheaper than hardcover and sometimes cheaper than paperbacks. They also sometimes have sales on nooks but not on the paper version.

    2. Re:Sure... by hawguy · · Score: 3, Informative

      Because they're charging the same price as a paperback, or hardcover, sometimes even more.

      And eBooks typically cost more than twice the price of used paperbacks. And I can give the paperback to someone else after I'm done or sell it again for a couple dollars so it's even cheaper.

      I really like my Kindle (the paperwhite with backlight is great for reading in bed without disturbing my partner - better than the clip-on book light) and prefer reading on the Kindle over reading paper books, but not so much that i'll pay twice what it costs to have a used book delivered to my door. My kindle to paper book ratio is about 3:1 -- lately I've only been buying Kindle books when I travel.

      I know the publishing industry says they can't sell eBooks any cheaper, so they will continue to get very little money from me as I stick with used books.

    3. Re:Sure... by laura20 · · Score: 3, Informative

      Yup. They are greedy; they want all that sweet extra crash - and despite the attempts of people to mau mau the numbers to convince the naive that ebooks cost as much for the producers as paper books, it's simply not true. The fact they don't have to factor in the risk cost of returns alone makes them vastly cheaper, even before considering materials costs and storage and transportation costs.

      I'm simply not going to pay hardback prices for an ebook, and I suspect there are plenty of others who feel the same way.

    4. Re:Sure... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Most hardbacks are more expensive but go look at any Penguin paperback. The e-book is usually the same price as the paperback. On the paperback I can get a 10% discount using my BN card that I can't an e-book. I ONLY by an e-book if it is cheaper than the print edition.

    5. Re:Sure... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I often find it to be the case on Amazon that they are the same as or more than a paperback, and often I can get a used paperback for even less. Both of my kids have Kindles, but I still buy a lot of printed books just because it's cheaper.

    6. Re:Sure... by kaehler · · Score: 1

      And because I am an old fart, I can increase the font size on ebooks so I do not need to use glasses. Can not do that with a regular book. And as I get older the print seems to be getting smaller.

    7. Re:Sure... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      $1 per book once it hits paperback, and you'll see ebooks rocket, ereaders become the next big thing, and therefore, people will be lapping up cheap content. Spending $15 on a book that's available for less in a B&M store puts people off. Maybe a buck is too low, perhaps $3 will be a sweet spot. There's too much shit available from self-published wannabies right now. Proper books will still sell on paper, a lot of us prefer the media, but there's a whole planet of people that will buy books. Once they've committed to some hardware, whether that's a kindle of other e-ink device doesn't matter, they'll be looking to load it up.

      Publishers need to face reality, their wares will make a lot more money for them and the authors, once e-books aren't a total and complete fucking rip-off.

    8. Re:Sure... by CanHasDIY · · Score: 0

      I'm simply not going to pay hardback prices for an ebook, and I suspect there are plenty of others who feel the same way.

      That would be this guy.

      Hell, I'm a bit offended that, when I buy a brand new paper book, it doesn't come with a digital copy. Pure rent-seeking, it is.

      Oh, well, only a matter of time before I scavenge enough parts to build an automated book scanner.

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    9. Re:Sure... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Of course your (completely rational) behavior is what the industry wants to drive out. The industry gets no money from used book sales, gifts to others (after you read it), etc. They want money every time it changes hands. The push to a license model (where you can't even hand the book to your wife / kids after you read it unless you cheat and have only one account) is something they see as very lucrative. It does piss me off to see the eBook license be the same price as a physical new book (sometimes higher, sometimes slightly lower, but always in the same range). Since the eBook license is non-transferable it has less value. Of course some value is regained due to being able to read it on a tablet, computer screen, phone in a pinch, etc. and not have to carry several books around when travelling. But overall, the reduction in value to the person taking the license should result in a lower price for eBook licensing.

    10. Re:Sure... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because they're charging the same price as a paperback

      Yeah! It's like they think all of a book's value lies in the words instead of the paper.

    11. Re:Sure... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I totally prefer a printed book over e . Amongst the reasons a book is an object,. It's there , i can see the cover , place it somewhere special when it's cover is great , it's also going to stand the test of time , in 40 years when i go back through this year's box it will still be there , all ill need is a light and glasses . Books are standing the test of time. Timeless objects , e books will not be readable in 40 years .. the reader will be long gone to the trash. Books are just a better deal.

    12. Re:Sure... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Agreed. But I think the real issue is that it is cheaper to buy the book used versus buying it in digital format. Using something like dealoz you can find books for a fraction of the cost. I'll take a cheap paperback over a $10+ digital copy every time.

    13. Re:Sure... by ideonexus · · Score: 4, Interesting

      This.

      Why should I pay $9.99 for an ebook that can be taken away from me anytime Amazon wants, can't be lent out or given away, and can't be resold? When I buy a real book, it's an investment. I can resell it, donate it to my local library, or buy other real books from used book sellers for $0.99. My wife's grandmother just passed away, and her family let me take a wealth of old books from her collection. All the money she spent on those books over her lifetime has transferred to her children and grandchildren. When I die, the hundreds--maybe thousands--of dollars spent on my ebook collection dies with me.

      I love my kindle. I love reading ebooks. I love highlighting, clipping, and making notes in them, but there's a very tough tradeoff here. Real books are a material investment, ebooks are ephemeral.

      --
      i ~ Celebrating Science, Cyberspace, Speculation
    14. Re:Sure... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah! It's like they think all of a book's value lies in the words instead of the paper.

      ...which they do not think at all, as any publisher will tell you when you hand in your manuscript, as well as it is easily inferrable from the fact that multiple editions of the same volume may have vastly different prices as dependent on the paper, typesetting, and binding technique.

      Or did you think that hardcovers have different words in them than paperbacks?

    15. Re:Sure... by maxwells_deamon · · Score: 1

      With Amazon you can have 5 family members sharing one account I believe. We share 5 devices

    16. Re:Sure... by zippthorne · · Score: 1

      They are cheaper than hardcover list price at B&N. They are only slightly cheaper than hardcover actual price people pay at B&N, and only sometimes cheaper than paperback.

      Early on, the pricing was a bit better, but it was never great. Also, they seem to be consistently more expensive than Amazon....

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
    17. Re:Sure... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      $9.99??? Maybe the standard price increase from $9.99 to $13.99 has something to do with it. Now Ebooks are often more expensive than print versions. As a Amazon Prime member I pay no shipping so why pay more for an Ebook? Furthermore there are no printing costs, storage costs or distribution costs associated with an Ebook so it is really counterproductive for publishers to price it that way.

      Price matters. Maybe somebody in the publishing industry will notice and drop the Ebook price. When that happens sales will rise. Basic economics.

    18. Re:Sure... by rcharbon · · Score: 1

      The "publishing industry" can't sell books cheaper, but I can. My ebooks are all well under half the cost of the paper editions. Link whoring: http://www.y42k.com

    19. Re:Sure... by iMadeGhostzilla · · Score: 1

      Because the book is now always with you (on your phone and your Kindle). That said, I think Amazon should do with books what they do with CDs: if you buy a physical book, you should get the digital version for free.

    20. Re:Sure... by gnupun · · Score: 1

      Yeah! It's like they think all of a book's value lies in the words instead of the paper.

      Just curious, what would it cost a retailer and publisher to print a 300-page paperback full of random words (no author) and place it in a bookstore shelf for a couple of months? That would be the cost of a book minus author and editor costs.

    21. Re:Sure... by rochrist · · Score: 1

      That is, of course, not remotely Amazon's call to make.

    22. Re:Sure... by Dabido · · Score: 1

      I concur. I went to purchase my University textbooks for this semester and it was cheaper for me to buy the printed version from the UK (AUD $76) and have them shipped to Australia than to buy the e-book versions (AUD $96). The embarrassing thing is, both textbooks were written by Australians and printed by Australian publishing companies. The price of the print versions in Australia were more expensive again (About AUD$ 100) ... and full list price they would have been AUD $154.

      --
      Sure enough, the cow costume was hanging up next to the superhero outfit and sailors uniform. (S,Spud)
  5. Same price ? by PIBM · · Score: 4, Insightful

    You pay the same price, but then you can't lend them easily to your friends or resell them, you can't rent them from the local library, depending on the device used, annotating or marking the pages is not effective and can't easily be shared between two people reading the same book at the same time (keep slowly browsing through to get to the current page), and you need to have that device charged up (more or less a problem depending on the device type). Beside having it instantly and the lighting on the kindle paperwhite / kobo glow for night reading, there's not much to like :(

    1. Re:Same price ? by MozeeToby · · Score: 1

      keep slowly browsing through to get to the current page

      I don't know of any ebook solution that doesn't have a "goto location" function. The kindle's even offer page numbers that match those in the hard copies.

    2. Re:Same price ? by fermion · · Score: 1

      In many cases, I have to pay more. For instance, I wanted to have a copy of paper book I have. The paper book was #20 and the e-book was $30. Silly. O'Rieley has about the only decent plan.

      --
      "She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
    3. Re:Same price ? by RazzleFrog · · Score: 1

      It's a pro/con balance thing. I can read a new release without lugging around a hardcover. I can finish one book and immediately switch to the next without having to carry two books on the train - or worse several books when flying for 15+hours. I can bookmark a book on one device and pick it up on another (like my phone). I can instantly get more obscure titles that aren't in store without having to have it shipped.

      The biggest downside is that right now you can't read them during take off and landing.

    4. Re:Same price ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You pay the same price, but then you can't lend them easily to your friends or resell them, you can't rent them from the local library, depending on the device used, annotating or marking the pages is not effective and can't easily be shared between two people reading the same book at the same time (keep slowly browsing through to get to the current page), and you need to have that device charged up (more or less a problem depending on the device type). Beside having it instantly and the lighting on the kindle paperwhite / kobo glow for night reading, there's not much to like :(

      Add to that list the fact that a lot of e-reader versions just aren't edited properly (page layout, tables, figures, images, etc. get mangled) and that you are locked into an ecosystem of apps or proprietary devices instead of anything resembling an open format. I think one of the other commenters is also dead on; more people have just gotten good at pirating PDFs, rather than suffer through all this when paying good money.

    5. Re:Same price ? by NeoMorphy · · Score: 1

      What are you talking about?

      The ebooks are cheaper, though not nearly as cheap as they should be, but still cheaper. There are also countless books in the public domain that you can get for free.

      You can borrow ebooks from the library, you can annotate and bookmark, you can share annotations, and some can go weeks without a recharge.

      What is there to like? I like being able to carry a library wherever I go. I have over a dozen tech manuals that are very awkward to carry with me but with a kindle, tablet, or smart phone I have access to the entire library whenever I want. I can electronically search for words like netdev_max_backlog and find all occurrences even if they are not in the index, I don't even use the index anymore.

    6. Re:Same price ? by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      There are also countless books in the public domain that you can get for free.

      and

      You can borrow ebooks from the library,

      That and the occasional free book from Amazon constitutes about 99% of the reading done on our Kindle. I don't know if other people are as cheap as me, but I sure can see how once you find Project Gutenberg you might purchase a lot less at $15/pop.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    7. Re:Same price ? by zAPPzAPP · · Score: 1

      There is no DRM on the books I bought so far.
      I can lend them whoever I want.
      But I sure as hell won't lend them my Kindle. They got to bring their own.

      Oh and my local library is lending out ebooks. Which you have to return. I still don't understand how that is supposed to work, because there is no DRM on those books either.
      But yes, lending ebooks is a thing apparently.

    8. Re:Same price ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "You pay the same price, but then you can't lend them easily to your friends or resell them, you can't rent them from the local library, depending on the device used, annotating or marking the pages is not effective and can't easily be shared between two people reading the same book at the same time..."

      But unlike paper books, they don't take away any place (or rooms) and you can download them by the thousands for free.

    9. Re:Same price ? by arth1 · · Score: 1

      You can borrow ebooks from the library, you can annotate and bookmark

      If you do that, the librarian will spank you.

    10. Re:Same price ? by shellbeach · · Score: 1

      you can't lend them easily to your friends or resell them, you can't rent them from the local library, depending on the device used, annotating or marking the pages is not effective and can't easily be shared between two people reading the same book at the same time (keep slowly browsing through to get to the current page)

      Am I the only person who removes DRM from their ebooks?? (I mean, seriously, this is /. -- we're supposed to enjoy this sort of challenge!) A few google searches will tell you how to do it for most popular formats, and then you can give the book to your friends without issue.

      What we should be pushing for is DRM-free ebooks at purchase, of course. A switch from DRM to DRM-free formats eventually happened with music files so I have every hope that it will happen with ebooks as well.

    11. Re:Same price ? by shellbeach · · Score: 1

      I don't know if other people are as cheap as me, but I sure can see how once you find Project Gutenberg you might purchase a lot less at $15/pop.

      Personally I quite like supporting authors whose works I enjoy by buying their books. I have this naive theory that if enough people buy their books, they might write some more. But maybe I'm just dreaming ...

      (Not dissing PG for a minute, incidentally, and more power to it -- but there's times when the classics don't cut it)

    12. Re:Same price ? by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      I have this naive theory that if enough people buy their books, they might write some more. But maybe I'm just dreaming ...

      It's a naive idea about the actual process, but you are not being naive about the result. There are a few authors that win the lottery, get very popular, and they can negotiate contracts with publishing companies that are favorable. This encourages thousands of other authors to play the lottery, too. Sure, they will almost all fail to make any money, but we get our commercial literature so the system technically works.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    13. Re:Same price ? by shellbeach · · Score: 1

      My point was simply that people shouldn't begrudge paying for ebooks ...

    14. Re:Same price ? by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      I agree, but I feel that the reduced ownership and lower costs of production and distribution should be reflected in the price.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    15. Re:Same price ? by shellbeach · · Score: 1

      I agree, but I feel that the reduced ownership and lower costs of production and distribution should be reflected in the price.

      Well, I agree with that too :)

      With regards to your first point, I do hope that ebooks will eventually move to a DRM-free format just as has happened with digital music. But we'll see ... in the meantime, thank god it's easy to strip the DRM straight off my kindle books.

    16. Re:Same price ? by Man+Eating+Duck · · Score: 1

      Add to that list the fact that a lot of e-reader versions just aren't edited properly (page layout, tables, figures, images, etc. get mangled) and that you are locked into an ecosystem of apps or proprietary devices instead of anything resembling an open format. I think one of the other commenters is also dead on; more people have just gotten good at pirating PDFs, rather than suffer through all this when paying good money.

      Yes, formatting can be bad and annoying, but usually it's pretty simple to rectify that. As for the format, the most common flowing ones are trivially de-DRM'ed and converted to epub without loss of fidelity, and you pretty much can't get a more open format than that. It will probably be readable indefinitely if the file is perpetuated, as the core content is plain xhtml/css.

      What annoys me the most is the region pricing/availability; Amazon has third-world prices in the US, but charges up to triple that in Europe. Some books are not "available in your country", those are the only cases where I turn to pirating a book. Seriously, fuck that shit.

      --
      Are you a grammar Nazi? I'm trying to improve my English; please correct my errors! :)
    17. Re:Same price ? by terrycarlino · · Score: 1

      I wouldn't begrudge paying for ebooks, if I though the balance of the money went to the author instead of some publisher who is doing what exactly? Editing? Possibly. Other than that almost all non-technical books are automatically typeset by the software. The device picks the font, layout and so on. While the publisher might spend some amount of money flogging the book under most circumstances a well know author merely needs to put their name on the book to get initial sales and word of mouth and the press takes it from there. Lesser know authors get no great amount of help from the publishers, especially outside the narrow group of smut based "Best sellers" lists, which really have more to do with how the publishers are pushing the book than any real sales. How else can a book debut on the best seller list? Its on the list before it hits the bookstores. I'm still amazed that most authors don't self publish. Especially well known ones. What do they need the publishers for? To set up book tours? If you're R.K. Rowling just write a book under another name and then let people know you wrote it. Instant best seller, no publisher flogging necessary. Why give them a good percentage of the profits? Hire your own PR firm to sell the book, the cost will be less than what the publishers take.

    18. Re:Same price ? by shellbeach · · Score: 1

      I wouldn't begrudge paying for ebooks, if I though the balance of the money went to the author instead of some publisher who is doing what exactly? Editing? Possibly.

      Editing is a huge job. An education editor will spend a lot of time working on the layout of the work as well as on the writing; a trade (i.e. popular fiction/non-fiction) editor will also interact with an author at every stage of the writing process and help sculpt the finished work. Just look at how much thanks fiction authors give to their editors in their acknowledgements to get an idea.

      I'm still amazed that most authors don't self publish. Especially well known ones. What do they need the publishers for? To set up book tours?

      Amongst other things, yes. Publicity is pretty vital in getting your book noticed. But I suspect most go through the major publishing houses to (a) get the services of a good editor and (b) get an monetary advance ahead of publication to support their writing.

      Yes, I'm sure that publishers are making a bit more profit on ebooks than on p-books. But I'm not sure it's as much as you think it is, and most authors don't have the ready cash to be able to replace all that infrastructure and support through hiring freelance staff.

  6. Are these people completely braindead? by ArcadeMan · · Score: 0

    Of course growth will stop at some point. We're not living in a world with infinite resources and infinite people. Growth will be positive up to the normal point where the needs are satisfied.

    What they need to look at is sales themselves. If they keep selling more or less the same amount of eBooks every month, then all is well and there's no need to panic.

    Growth is the worst thing that can happen past the saturation point.*

    * see also, human population on planet Earth

    1. Re:Are these people completely braindead? by i+kan+reed · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure e-books are the venue to contest the fundamental validity of economic accelerationism.

    2. Re:Are these people completely braindead? by ArcadeMan · · Score: 1

      An eBook is available in unlimited supplies, but we still have a limited population. That's what I hate about economists and other fields who compute numbers like the real world has no limits, they're completely out of their minds and disconnected from reality.

    3. Re:Are these people completely braindead? by jellybear · · Score: 1

      I'd buy more of their stuff if I had infinite money. Unfortunately, the Fed isn't pumping cash into my bank account...

  7. "KindleNook Writer" by the Beatles by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 2

    As prices have risen, quite frankly, I might as well order a paperback. Much nicer to hold and read.

    --
    (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
    1. Re:"KindleNook Writer" by the Beatles by Capt.DrumkenBum · · Score: 2

      Several of my preferred authors write VERY large books. Reading them on my Kindle is much less painful than holding one of those monster books.

      --
      If I were God, wouldn't I protect my churches from acts of me?
    2. Re:"KindleNook Writer" by the Beatles by nospam007 · · Score: 1

      "As prices have risen, quite frankly, I might as well order a paperback. Much nicer to hold and read."

      Indeed, only it can't change font sizes, illumination and if I put my finger on an unknown word, neither a dictionary explanation, a translation nor a Wikipedia entry is shown, kind of a bummer if you're used to it.

      Since Calibre is adding lots of stuff lately to accommodate large amounts of eBooks, I guess eBooks are downloaded by the millions as well..

    3. Re:"KindleNook Writer" by the Beatles by Man+Eating+Duck · · Score: 1

      Several of my preferred authors write VERY large books. Reading them on my Kindle is much less painful than holding one of those monster books.

      Yes, behold the paper edition of the series I bought a few days ago, and in my preferred format (pretty girl excluded, but I have my own). That is only one of the many advantages of ebooks.

      --
      Are you a grammar Nazi? I'm trying to improve my English; please correct my errors! :)
  8. Too many devices by bobbutts · · Score: 1

    The traditional Kindle is a better reader than a tablet, but it's a one trick pony. If I'm making a choice between the devices, the tablet usually wins.

    1. Re:Too many devices by The+Cat · · Score: 1

      I think we've done the "one trick pony" meme now. Stop humping it or its going to deflate.

  9. More buck for the bang? by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Perhaps it may have to do something with the price fixing scandal?

    (I love it when publishers tell the public that e-books can't get cheaper because paper isn't actually that much of an expense and people need to get paid for the work, while the authors and translators are told in private that they can't get paid more because "paper and the printer shop costs too much".)

    --
    Ezekiel 23:20
    1. Re:More buck for the bang? by jbolden · · Score: 1

      There are other expenses besides printing:
      shipping, warehousing,
      editing, layout, cover design
      promotional expenses, incentives,

      etc...

    2. Re:More buck for the bang? by jkonrath · · Score: 5, Informative

      From http://journal.bookfinder.com/2009/03/breakdown-of-book-costs.html (Slightly old)...
      Based on a list price of $27.95
      - $3.55 - Pre-preduction - This amount covers editors, graphic designers, and the like
      - $2.83 - Printing - Ink, glue, paper, etc
      - $2.00 - Marketing - Book tour, NYT Book Review ad, printing and shipping galleys to journalists
      - $2.80 - Wholesaler - The take of the middlemen who handle distribution for publishers
      - $4.19 - Author Royalties - A bestseller like Grisham will net about 15% in royalties, lesser known authors get less. Subtract the author's agent fees and self-employment taxes from that, too.
      - $12.58 - profit for the retailer.

      In the case of an ebook, you're removing the $2.83 in printing.

      You might be removing some of the wholesaling cost, but you might be using Ingram to do your wholesaling if you're a big company. If you're self-publishing, you might be using something like BookBaby or Smashwords. Yes, you can go to KDP and register your own book yourself, but if you're selling in multiple places or selling multiple books, you're going to use a middle-man to handle cataloging, recordkeeping, and listing things in multiple places. If it's more than $2.80 in headaches, you use a distributor.

      Marketing, pre-production, royalties all don't change. (Or they get squeezed, and you get exactly what's going on right now, which is authors complaining "they don't pay us or market us or do a good job editing us like the good old days.")

      As for that $12.58 of supposed profit, here's the interesting thing - Amazon doesn't sell books at list price. John Grisham's new book, The Racketeer, is an example. List price: $28.95. Yours for only $19.81 in paper.

      I'm not saying that ebook prices should be equal to the price of a printed book, but removing the printing doesn't suddenly make a book cost a dollar or even five dollars.

    3. Re:More buck for the bang? by rahvin112 · · Score: 1, Interesting

      I'd mod you up if I had the points. eBooks were growing like mad up until Apple caused prices to triple. When prices went above those of dead trees most people that looked at eBooks decided the value wasn't there and the they stopped selling them to new people (people that made the investment on a reader kept buying eBooks).

      If prices come back down now that the Apple price fixing is over the market will likely rebound but this is the damage Apple and the publishers did. They set the market back probably a decade by driving cost conscious purchasers away, and it's going to be a long time before those people look at ebooks again.

    4. Re:More buck for the bang? by NeoMorphy · · Score: 1

      Eventually you can reduce or even eliminate more of the overhead. It used to be that writers needed publishing companies to get their books to the public. But now that is no longer true with the internet and ebooks you can sell your own books and keep all of the profit. I think that electronic media is going to be more and more popular for music and books as people see the benefits in convenience. Unlike music there's going to be the issue of providing a format as easy on the eyes as paper, but it gets better every year.

      Kids going to school will no longer have to carry 50# backpacks, schools will hopefully be able to get access to ebooks that are reasonably priced and they'll last forever. More schools are getting tablets for the kids and changing to ebooks would be easier after that. They have apps that use fonts that make it easier for people with dyslexia to read. If you're blind then text-to-speech can read any ebook, and hopefully text-to-speech will get better over time.

    5. Re:More buck for the bang? by radtea · · Score: 2

      Let's assume that the initial print run is 5000 (apparently not atypical in the US for hardcovers: http://www.ian-irvine.com/publishing.html, see "Lesson 11"). That $3.55 for pre-production comes to almost $18,000. Given how poorly edited most books are, and the degree to which layout is automated (I've created both e-books and print books myself, with purely open source tools, and can script the whole process so a monkey could do the work with a push-button) that seems like a huge amount of money.

      I'm not saying you're wrong, just saying that everything I know about traditional publishers points to them being fantasitically inefficient organizations, whose bloated processes are preserved simply by their scale, and the way the marketing channels for books create large barriers to entry for smaller presses.

      While it's true that "a score is not an album", that hardly proves that Indie bands cannot exist and thrive, and independent authors should be the Next Big Thing in publishing. We're still about a decade behind muscians in this, I think, but it'll happen, and when it does e-books will be the place it happens.

      Editing and production are just not that difficult, and freelance professional editors are surprisingly cheap (results, however, vary markedly even while prices do not.)

      --
      Blasphemy is a human right. Blasphemophobia kills.
    6. Re:More buck for the bang? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So what your saying is that if I take out a home loan, or hold on to my old car for a year, I can use that money to contract for preproduction and marketing for a flat fee, list my book on Amazon and B&N myself, and then keep $12.54 for myself instead of $4.19?

      That's capitalism, I suppose. Take the risk yourself so you can keep all the percentages.

    7. Re:More buck for the bang? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're forgetting that a HUGE part of the wholesale costs (rent, floor space use, signage space use, etc.) is elimited with E-books They take up almost NO space.

    8. Re:More buck for the bang? by jkonrath · · Score: 1

      $2.80 of the $27.95. Even if you completely remove it, you're still talking about a $22.32 ebook. And if you're going through a distributor, you aren't completely removing it - they still take a cut.

    9. Re:More buck for the bang? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      i think you forgot to consider paperback editions of a book. if the $28 retail price drops to $8 after about a year, what fraction of that $8 is retail profit + wholesaler + printing? i can see myself paying $5 for ebooks, but not more.

    10. Re:More buck for the bang? by aaaaaaargh! · · Score: 1

      So how do you explain the difference in price between hardcovers and paperbacks? Do you even read books?

    11. Re:More buck for the bang? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      From http://journal.bookfinder.com/2009/03/breakdown-of-book-costs.html (Slightly old)...
      Based on a list price of $27.95
      - $3.55 - Pre-preduction - This amount covers editors, graphic designers, and the like
      - $2.83 - Printing - Ink, glue, paper, etc
      - $2.00 - Marketing - Book tour, NYT Book Review ad, printing and shipping galleys to journalists
      - $2.80 - Wholesaler - The take of the middlemen who handle distribution for publishers
      - $4.19 - Author Royalties - A bestseller like Grisham will net about 15% in royalties, lesser known authors get less. Subtract the author's agent fees and self-employment taxes from that, too.
      - $12.58 - profit for the retailer.

      ..

      This is rather misleading. You are specifically talking about a new release. Over what time frame was this measured?

      The "Pre-production" and the "Marketing" are largely fixed upfront costs. For the ebook you also don't need the wholesaler (why do you need a wholesaler to make the book available on Amazon, B&N and the Apple ebook store)?

      So again, the only long term variable cost of a book is the printing...just as most people think.

    12. Re:More buck for the bang? by bitingduck · · Score: 1

      $2.80 of the $27.95. Even if you completely remove it, you're still talking about a $22.32 ebook. And if you're going through a distributor, you aren't completely removing it - they still take a cut.

      But for an ebook you're also eliminating all the costs of the physical space at the retailer. The $12.58 that the retailer gets isn't pure profit-- they have to pay for space, utilities, employees, etc. out of that

      And pre-production is generally easier with an ebook than a paper book. You can script both, as GP mentions, but to make a nice looking paper book generally takes more tweaking than a nice looking ebook.

    13. Re:More buck for the bang? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I am dubious. This doesn't contain any pricing for shipping, distribution, warehousing, and pulping. The last is especially glaring - the price of a book "printing" has to cover the cost to print not just the individual copy, but some fraction of all of the prints which don't sell. None of these are factors in ebooks.

      Notice too that wholesaler and retailer account for 50% of the cost, but with ebooks these may be the same company. And since they can almost eliminate the cost to ship, warehouse and display the copies, I think that the "profit to the retailer" ought to be a lot less on ebooks.

    14. Re:More buck for the bang? by Leuf · · Score: 1

      You mean the paperbacks that come out long after the hardcover? They make as much as they can off the hardcover first. GRRM's "A Dance with Dragons" came out in July 2011. The paperback still isn't even out yet. If the paperback was released at the same time it would cost much more than it does.

      The pricing problem is that eventually the printed version becomes much cheaper than the e-book price which stays artificially high, just like with music. Amazon will often ship you a cd (with free shipping) for less than they'll sell you the mp3s.

    15. Re:More buck for the bang? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actualy you are removing a lot more than that, as an author i can tell you that authors royalties on ebooks are significantly less in many cases. This is what prompted me to dump my previous publisher, as on my last book, 90% of sales where ebooks, and i got screwed on the rates.

      ebooks also allow publisher to open up promotional and reveue streams that you cant do with dead trees, like early access programs, paid updates etc.

    16. Re:More buck for the bang? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      HORSE SHIT!!!

      Those costs are based on what exactly? If you sell 10,000 copies? 100,000? Once you go digital you could literally sell it to one billion people for 1c and reduce those costs to negligible. Of course the trick is getting a cent out of each of a billion people but the point is once you go electronic your costs don't scale in the same way. There are no print runs. Your profits are basically limited by the number of people you can reach and the price you're willing to sell at influences that.

      Stop being a deceitful PRICK and part of the problem. Greed doesn't work.

    17. Re:More buck for the bang? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is what doesnt make sense to me.

      The numbers you are quoting are fixed prices per book fir a print run.

      But they are FIXED cost.

      If you sell 50000 copies instead of 5000, because of a lower price, those costs per book are reduced.

      Its creative accounting, imo.

    18. Re:More buck for the bang? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How it could be

      $27.95

      $3.55 - Pre-preduction - This amount covers editors, graphic designers, and the like
      $2.00 - Marketing - Book tour, NYT Book Review ad, printing and shipping galleys to journalists
      $2.80 - Wholesaler - The take of the middlemen who handle distribution for publishers
      $19.60 for the author.

      Author or agent can make geo specific deals with the Wholesaler section. Now the author has plenty of leeway to reduce to overall cost. Why does the author, the actual content creator, get a pittance and a dozen layers of middle men leech off their work?

    19. Re:More buck for the bang? by rochrist · · Score: 1

      Of course it's still true. Publishers do a lot more than just 'get the book to the public'. I've read a metric shitload of the self-published books available on Amazon. Only a microscopic fraction we're truly good. Not a single one would have failed to benefit from a real professional editing process (which includes a great deal more than copyediting). Yes yes, but the writer can hire the editor him/herself, etc. Sure, so instead of the author being paid an advance and having all of that stuff handled for them, they can instead invest thousands of their own dollars.

    20. Re:More buck for the bang? by rochrist · · Score: 1

      Everyone says this. In point of fact, I virtually never see it actually happen in the wild. The rare times it does happen appear mostly to be either lag in price adjustments or actual mistakes.

    21. Re:More buck for the bang? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The numbers the link provides are highly deceptive. Pre-production costs are one-time, they can't be done on a per-book basis unless you know how many copies which will be sold over the entire future of the human race. The same is true of marketing costs, which will also vary considerably from one subject area to another. The vast majority of authors do not get 15%, so having this break-down calculated on the basis of a highly known author is misleading.

      To make these numbers even more problematic, the claimed low printing costs are highly suspect, as they do not necessarily take into consideration of the costs of capital, operating expenses, and maintenance. To print at a low cost per item requires very expensive, very large equipment, which must be treated as capital for accounting purposes (making it, in practice, hard to buy, particularly for publicly-owned businesses). This equipment also requires expensive maintenance by highly skilled people, will certainly require at a least a few very capable operators and/or engineers for ongoing operations, and eventually needs to be replaced entirely. There are significant real estate costs to having such equipment just from the size of the machines alone, not to mention all the storage needed. Only so much material can be run through a given amount of equipment, and thus there are opportunity costs (as in, "lost opportunities") associated with printing any given item. There are logistics costs associated with moving and storing the materials, and the published item. Have all these factors been taken into account in the claimed low cost? Highly suspect.

      Don't forget the costs of medical care and retirement for the people working for the business, plus the expense of a legal staff (necessary in our bloated and absurd legal system). These are huge expenses, as anyone familiar with government budgets knows.

      Also, the amounts charged by middlemen varies considerably depending upon the type of material. College bookstores charge an outrageous amount here, for example (and do it with zero risk, since anything that doesn't sell they typically get to send back to the publisher at the publisher's expense: the profits here from their captive market are so huge the publishers are willing to work within these constraints).

      Then you have to consider the bribes, err, I mean lobbying, that is done to get bookstores and similar entities to strategically position the books, something that is highly unlikely to be reported as an ordinary "marketing" expense due to the often ethically questionable nature of how this is done, and also something that doesn't have to be done with an ebook where most folks will be using a search engine instead of browsing aisles.

      The link does not provide sufficient information on how all of these factors are taken into account in computing the final numbers to give us any reason to trust those numbers.

      One of the realities of the publishing business is the take on the big sellers must compensate for the frequent books that do poorly, something else that isn't discussed in these figures. Looking at these numbers, one might suppose that ALL books have huge profit margins, and that simply isn't true (as you can find out by talking to people with experience in the business). Electronic publishing provides a huge advantage here.

    22. Re:More buck for the bang? by The+Raven · · Score: 1

      So what about a paperback... amazing, with costs like that, haw they sell for $6-9. OH WAIT, MAYBE THE NUMBERS ARE MISLEADING!

      --
      "I will trust Google to 'do no evil' until the founders no longer run it." Hello Alphabet.
    23. Re:More buck for the bang? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The hard thing with using the Indie band model is that it takes about 5 minutes of listening to decide whether further listening is warranted. For a novel, it may take several hours before the plot develops enough to give it a real judgement.

    24. Re:More buck for the bang? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So, since the ebook doesn't have print or wholesale costs (extra storage is negligible at 0.5MB per edition) the ebook should cost about $5.50 less than the paper. Take 30% off pre-production because ebooks don't get layout tweaks makes it $6 less. Now the book is only $14. Add DRM so you can't lend it or resell it and the value is halved. $7 is thus a good average price for an ebook. Coincidentally Baen (who doesn't use DRM and has recently got Tor and Del Rey on board) sell at $5 ( to $10 depending on the popularity of the author and the age of the book. Baen has been in publishing for about 30 years and ebooks for nearly as long as Amazon, I think they have done their research before setting these prices. Older books also come in bundles which halves the price at the risk of getting one or two that you aren't interested in reading.

      Sure some people will still pirate them but a sane publisher like Baen doesn't care. They weren't going to make money off these people regardless and you have to be pretty broke not to afford $7 every few months for your favourite author or two.

    25. Re:More buck for the bang? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Assuming this is all true, could you please explain paperbacks? Given your numbers, the difference in costs between a paperback and a hardcover would be the printing costs, in fact only a portion of the printing costs. Hardcovers are $25-$30, paperbacks are $7-9, call the difference $19, best case $2 of that is difference in printing costs. So who takes the $17 hit? This seems somewhat sketchy.

    26. Re:More buck for the bang? by terrycarlino · · Score: 1

      So how does your cost breakdown relate to paperback books. Visit a local B&N and you find that the balance of the books are not Hardbacks but paperbacks, most of which were never published as hardbacks. These are the same books which are available as ebooks or paperback on Amazon for nearly the same price. I go to the SciFi or Romance section of B&N and see literally thousands of books which were never marketed, never appeared in hardback. As a matter of fact the paperbacks vastly outnumber the hardbacks. Except for the small portion of books which are published as hardbacks these numbers are meaningless.

    27. Re:More buck for the bang? by jwhitener · · Score: 1

      That is why author's in the future are going to do more self-publishing and editing, just like some musicians like Radio Head are cutting out all those other costs. Perhaps getting together to share the cost of a ebook site, or just offering their books on their own websites.

  10. You can't build a library with an e-reader by rolfwind · · Score: 2

    Forgoing the DRM on music in Itunes did not kill the music industry, but that's what all the book publishers act like.

    So all we're offered is lock-in, can't loan to friends, etc.

    I don't even enjoy owning physical copies of anything, but with the digital copies I'm allowed to own outright and with as I please in private, I tend to buy (music), with the digital copies where they take every DRM step (movies) or go above that and lock me in (amazon, ebooks), I tend to either rent (netflix), get the physical copy and rip (DVDs), or borrow (Amazon Once a month or whatever library).

    1. Re:You can't build a library with an e-reader by RabidReindeer · · Score: 1

      Forgoing the DRM on music in Itunes did not kill the music industry, but that's what all the book publishers act like.

      Fortunately, not all publishers. Baen, TOR, and O'Reilly opted out of the DRM racket. Some of the independents do.

    2. Re:You can't build a library with an e-reader by rochrist · · Score: 1

      Actually, all of MacMillan now I believe. (Tor is part of MacMillan).

  11. pay to play by mwessel · · Score: 1

    when there is absolutely no price benefit, why buy a non durable good? If you are browsing for older titles, it is actually more expensive to buy e-books.

    1. Re:pay to play by RazzleFrog · · Score: 1

      It depends on how old the title is. If you are talking public domain then you have thousands available on Project Gutenberg which you can read on your reader.

      And I guess you get your internet connection free since you don't believe in paying for non-durable goods.

    2. Re:pay to play by CanHasDIY · · Score: 2

      And I guess you get your internet connection free since you don't believe in paying for non-durable goods.

      OP never said they "didn't believe in paying for non-durable goods," they said, "when there is absolutely no price benefit, why buy a non durable good?"

      Completely different, and a sentiment I agree with.

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
  12. Costs more to print a ebook that a Hard cover ? by WoodGuard · · Score: 0

    I guess it has nothing to do with the fact a lot of ebook cost more than the Hard Cover. That cannot be it.

  13. Price. by new+death+barbie · · Score: 1

    6. E-book prices have not fallen the way many expected. There’s not a big price difference between an e-book and a paperback.

    THIS.

    Also, perhaps this reflects a plateau in the number of people willing to invest in tablets or ebook readers? Do these numbers correspond to tablet sales, for example?

    --

    It's supposed to be completely automatic, but actually you have to press this button.

  14. Apple by jbolden · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Something not mentioned was Apple pushing the price of ebooks up often by 25%. In general the main reason I haven't switched is that from Amazon used I frequently can get print books much cheaper than the corresponding ebooks. At the time ebooks were surging ebook prices were crashing and there was a huge difference between the ebook and the printed book price. Perhaps, not unreasonably, many people prefer printed books and given a high ebook price there weren't be a cut over.

    1. Re:Apple by Wordplay · · Score: 1

      More than that, they were in the news for having done so, which painted the ebook market as a crooked game. I'm not surprised it suppressed sales.

    2. Re:Apple by thetoadwarrior · · Score: 1

      Like Films and games I suspect the physical materials of a book are the cheapest part of the creation of a book so why do you think you deserve a significant discount for having removed the cheapest part?

    3. Re:Apple by jbolden · · Score: 1

      Printing, dust jacket, warehousing and shipping is not 0. It is a substantial cost. Let's say there is $25 hardcover. Store buys it for $16. That $9 is covering cost of sales, cost of warehousing and shipping costs. With an ebook cost of sales could be closer to a $1.

      There is another $2 for distribution. That goes to $0.

      Now from that $16 about $1.50-2.50 for cover and dust jacket. Another $2.50 for paper and maybe another $.50 or so for stitching. That should all go to $0. So I'm saying that $25 should be $10 for an ebook.

      The cost of film is quite a lot incidentally.

    4. Re:Apple by bgalbrecht · · Score: 1

      I was mostly buying my ebooks on sale, so the Apple/publisher collusion would have cost me between 2 and 3 times as much as what I paid before agency pricing went into effect. I've probably purchased as many books this year after the publishers settled with the DOJ than I did the 3 years in which agency pricing was in effect.

    5. Re:Apple by thetoadwarrior · · Score: 1

      There are still distribution costs for the ebook. Do you think every time you get to re-download an ebook that's free or, in the case of amazon, whisper.net runs itself for free?

      I can get a 8" x 11" 494 page hardback printed for £7.95 each at 500 copies. So even as someone without large order, my own facilities, etc could only wipe £7.95 off the cost of, for example, a £50 book. A standard paperback is more around £2.00 so for a £10.00 it's still not the bulk of the cost. It's not like an author just types up a book in Word and exports it as a PDF. There are people that have to read for spell checking and other thing things, at least one person to layout the book, someone to design the cover, and then all the little support roles within the publisher and maybe even for the author too.

      Most authors don't see much money on a first edition because all those costs eat into the profits. In fact the cost to print the book would stay the same so the mere fact an author sees profit and would hope for a second edition would mean the cost of printing off the physical book isn't the big cost and I wouldn't expect to see more than 50% taken off the price for a new release.

      Maybe for an old release but then again old books as e-books aren't exactly expensive either. I just looked on iTunes which is supposedly overpriced from allowing publishers to keep prices high and standard paperback titles that have been around for ages are anywhere from £0.99 to £5 which given the price of a sandwich or pint can easily be £3.00 hardly makes them overpriced.

    6. Re:Apple by jbolden · · Score: 1

      Do you think every time you get to re-download an ebook that's free or, in the case of amazon, whisper.net runs itself for free?

      Redownload of ebooks, I would suspect is rather cheap, is it even a $.01? Initial sales because of the cost of maintaining a website and building all the visuals might be expensive.

      As for the rest of your costs, things like layout are true of ebook or my hardcover. So it doesn't matter those costs have to be in either way. Same thing with the developmental and copyedits.

  15. Economics -- a pricing failure by coats · · Score: 4, Interesting

    With paperbacks, my typical behavior is to buy the book, read it, and then donate it to charity (at a retail used-book valuation) for a tax write-off. Given my marginal tax rate (state and federal combined), the net cost of the book is about 65% of face-value.

    With E-books, I can't do that "donate to charity", so the face-value is the net cost, which seems to be about 10% under the paperback price.

    E-book prices need to come down by at least 25% in order to become economically competitive for me.

    --
    "My opinions are my own, and I've got *lots* of them!"
    1. Re:Economics -- a pricing failure by Princeofcups · · Score: 3, Interesting

      E-book prices need to come down by at least 25% in order to become economically competitive for me.

      Except publishers do not want to sell e-books. Let me rephrase that. Publishers want to price e-books so high that people continue to buy paper books. Why? That's their business. They cannot conceive of a business with different distribution channels. The collusion between publishers was not to make more money off of e-books. It was to make sure that the prices are so high that it will not eat into their traditional sales. Something will come along to change the business, but not until a few rich fucks die or are bought out.

      --
      The only thing worse than a Democrat is a Republican.
    2. Re:Economics -- a pricing failure by AvitarX · · Score: 1

      Something like Amazon?

      Authors will start making money selling more directly at lower prices, at some point one will become a millionaire, and then they'll be fucked. It's happening in music, and it will happen in writing.

      --
      Wow, sent an e-mail as suggested when clicking on "use classic" banner, and got a fast response that addressed my msg
  16. Because Printed Is Better by J3947 · · Score: 1

    How about: "all the people who want to read books on e-readers have them?"

    Personally, I still buy all my books in printed format. I don't have much desire for an e-reader. There are some aspect of an e-reader which would be more convenient (like easily taking all my books with me), but I'm generally only reading one book at a time anyway. But the downside to e-readers is that I'd like to know that my books will be easily accessible in the future - not tied to a specific "Amazon Kindle" or "Nook" device. Let's not forget that a recent survey showed that the average person still prefers printed books over e-reader books.

    1. Re:Because Printed Is Better by ColdCat · · Score: 1

      I've kindle it's nice and I like it but not to replace all my books. First there is price it's pretty common than paper is 30% less than ebook. Second the reader can store hundreds of books right. Third more than half of book I read doesn't exist in any ebook format.
      if you can store hundred why is there is no way to sort you book without spending HOURS, it's a nightmare if you have multiple book by same author, multiple book with same name or some public domain book which are not well tagged (using search when your not sure of the book title is crazy).
      I've used it for some technical books it's not always good. The writer have to do extra work to make it readable. ebook pages are smaller it works for full text but not when you have some diagrams, source code... Lot of technical book have hyperlinks to different chapters which is nice, but sometime you hit a link instead of turning page. BUT ebook reader give you the search tool which is really nice for finding references.

  17. Ebooks are overpriced by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's pretty simple - ebooks are often priced more than the exact same paperback when you take into account sales and coupons (Barnes & Noble deluges me with coupons), plus the paperback has resale value that drives the overall price down even further.

    The only reason I end up buying kindle books these days is either complete impulse buy (Must have it NOW!) or because my bookshelf is full.

  18. Here's a free one to check out by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Friend promo: https://leanpub.com/Abandonmentparty

    Pay what you want!

  19. eBooks are an easy sell to the uninformed by bazmail · · Score: 2, Interesting

    60% of the cost of publishing a traditional best selling dead-wood book is printing and distribution. With those costs zeroed by ebook publishing, prices have not come down. Add to this the DRM and onerous terms and conditions (you are buying a conditional license to read the book, you don't "own" it). It is illegal to lend the ebook to somebody, illegal to resell (also technically troublesome), probably also illegal to read aloud as that might count as public performance. So fuck publishers, DRM and eBooks.

    1. Re:eBooks are an easy sell to the uninformed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Once they try paper there's no going back !

    2. Re:eBooks are an easy sell to the uninformed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah! And then they all act like lawyers and all act as if they had the talent to write them/ as if they did write them actually!

    3. Re:eBooks are an easy sell to the uninformed by ColdCat · · Score: 1

      Here is some numbers from there in french/spanish http://alliance-lab.org/archives/1072?lang=fr#

      Retailer : 33 to 40 %
      Promotion to libraries: 10 to 12%
      Distribution: 7 to 8%
      Dead Wood manufacturing: 12 to 20 %
      Promotion, communication to customers: 0 to 10 %
      Author 6 to 12 %

    4. Re:eBooks are an easy sell to the uninformed by bazmail · · Score: 1

      The figure I quoted is for a "best sellers" where retailers cut goes down as any self respecting retailer cannot be without the book so publishers cut their margin. The sheer pulp volume increases the distribution and printing costs enormously. The figures you quote are for a different market scope.

    5. Re:eBooks are an easy sell to the uninformed by DerekLyons · · Score: 3, Informative

      60% of the cost of publishing a traditional best selling dead-wood book is printing and distribution.

      [[Citation Needed.]] Seriously, every reputable analysis I've ever seen (like this one from Money magazine) places that figure much lower.

    6. Re:eBooks are an easy sell to the uninformed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      60% of the cost of publishing a traditional best selling dead-wood book is printing and distribution.

      [[Citation Needed.]] Seriously, every reputable analysis I've ever seen (like this one from Money magazine) places that figure much lower.

      That analysis by bookfinder is highly misleading (its just publisher PR). They are mixing fixed, upfront costs with variable costs. Of course, you need to recoup these fixed costs, but over time these costs go to zero.

    7. Re:eBooks are an easy sell to the uninformed by rochrist · · Score: 1

      Did you pull this figure out of your ass?

    8. Re:eBooks are an easy sell to the uninformed by walterbyrd · · Score: 1

      Also there is no accounting for shipping, storage, logistics, disposal, and so on.

      Also, it is a cherry-picked example. They only consider the upfront costs.

  20. Sharing, pricing, archiving and DRM... by gmezero · · Score: 1

    I would suspect that it's more a case of users at the front end of the purchase curve tailing off after too many cases of "oops, I can't download it again because the publisher pulled it", crap I can't easily share it with a friend (who probably also has a different brand reader, even if their own reader supports lending), or even the... loss of the fun of "gee let's stare at the shelf and stare at my books"... Let's not forget the fact that there's no discount that one would expect in an electronic book since all of the print material publishing cost has been removed from the picture.

    I know I initially purchased a few e-books but the novelty soon wore off and the price simply hasn't come down to where I go "$20" for this printed copy or "$20" for this e-book... just give me the print version that I can throw on the shelf and anyone in my family can read anytime they want.

  21. Printed books were not broken. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The "fix" was never going to be more than a novelty.

    Okay, to be fair, books are broken in several ways, mostly having to do with publishers and distributors. But eBooks didn't offer any improvements in these areas.

  22. Lets Hope So! by sdinfoserv · · Score: 1

    eBooks’ major problem is the whole copyright crap - No sharing - the time honored tradition of a book club dies, being smothered by lawyers. Book clubs become dens of iniquity full of felons - no different and receiving harsher treatment than a room of heroin users. Imagine the feds busting in on a room of suburbia moms discussing and sharing Harliquin romance novels. - We need movie. These very same book clubs that create best sellers are out lawed. Selling my books back to the book store in college after the class in now impossible. It’s so unbelievably short sighted it deserves to die painfully.

    1. Re:Lets Hope So! by J3947 · · Score: 1

      Is this a joke?

      BTW, you can loan your ebooks. http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=200549320

      You may now go back to your melodramatic fits of uninformed rage.

    2. Re:Lets Hope So! by cpt+kangarooski · · Score: 1

      Book clubs become dens of iniquity full of felons

      All the best book clubs already were that.

      --
      -- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
    3. Re:Lets Hope So! by kaehler · · Score: 0

      14 days does not work for me. I need more time to read a book. And can I give a book to someone like I can a real book?

    4. Re:Lets Hope So! by CanHasDIY · · Score: 2

      From your link:

      You can lend a Kindle book to another reader for up to 14 days.

      and

      A book can only be loaned one time. Magazines and newspapers are currently not available for lending.

      Only being able to loan a book to 1 person, EVER, and only for 2 weeks, doesn't really qualify as "loanable." At least in the sense OP is talking about.

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
  23. Re:Maybe by sdinfoserv · · Score: 0

    That's a way to stay on topi... oh, look the kitty!

  24. ebooks are great for reading things you might like by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ... but hard-copy is stuff you would like to read again, again, again and retain memories.

    I borrow 8 ebooks a month from my library for free, I don't read all day so that is more than enough for me. I usually get two books at a time, so I always have enough time. If I run out of ebooks, I just go to my library and get a physical one. If I see one I may like that isn't there, I note it down till it's available.

    This is how most UK libraries work, if one person has the ebook, nobody else can get it until my 30 days are up, regardless of whether I have finished it or not. I have a cheap Nook and this works fine for me. I have never paid for an ebook in my life.

    However, I do understand wanting a book which you read often to be a book which you can hold in your hand and keep. I have several which I keep with me, because reading a book via a Nook just simply isn't the same as having the book you always have known, turning each page with memories.

    ebooks are great, but memories I doubt will be conserved when you read them with an lcd screen 10 years later. If I find an ebook which sticks with me I will usually buy a hardcopy.

  25. Prices by intermodal · · Score: 1

    Without a serious price advantage, I'd much rather have a physical book I can read, lend, give, or sell. In fact, I'd rather have the physical book in a lot of ways over digital.

    That said, the convenience of an ebook is great. The reading experience not as much.

    This is a suggestion for not just ebooks but tablets as a whole. Phones too: Make matte screens rather than gloss. Or at least anti-reflective screens. I can't adequately describe the frustration of trying to use either device outdoors in the sun, but I have frequently enjoyed books in such circumstances.

    --
    In SOVIET RUSSIA... erm...NSA AMERICA, the Internet logs onto YOU!
    1. Re:Prices by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You must have never tried an e-ink display. When I used my tablet for reading, the eye strain from looking at a backlit display was annoying, and not being able to read outside was also quite frustrating. With an e-ink reader, reading outside is no problem, and I have a light available if I end up reading at night. The eye strain is less than a regular book. Heck, I can even adjust the font size so I can read it without my glasses, and the battery on mine will run for a month without recharging. If I want to buy a new book, I just turn on the wifi, find it in the shop, buy it, take less than a minute to download it, and then I'm off reading again. None of this getting in a car, driving to the store, hoping they have what I want stuff. Also don't have to wait 3 or 4 days only to miss the UPS guy showing up and having to reschedule delivery. I can carry my whole library of ebooks with me without hurting myself, plenty of entertainment for even long trips. If the ebooks were just a bit cheaper and they'd let you use the e-ink readers in all stages of flight, I'd never have a reason to buy paperbacks or hardcovers again.

    2. Re:Prices by intermodal · · Score: 1

      The difference is, I already have a 7" tablet and phone in my pockets. Pretty much all the time for the phone, and about half the time for the tablet, except when I'm camping, hiking, or at home or the office (where they are usually nearby). Yes, I'm a cargo pants guy. Even so, the last thing I need is a third device that I have to carry with me. If my phone and tablet aren't up to it, I really can't be bothered with it.

      --
      In SOVIET RUSSIA... erm...NSA AMERICA, the Internet logs onto YOU!
    3. Re:Prices by Man+Eating+Duck · · Score: 1

      The difference is, I already have a 7" tablet and phone in my pockets. Pretty much all the time for the phone, and about half the time for the tablet, except when I'm camping, hiking, or at home or the office (where they are usually nearby). Yes, I'm a cargo pants guy. Even so, the last thing I need is a third device that I have to carry with me. If my phone and tablet aren't up to it, I really can't be bothered with it.

      That's just your priorities :)

      I bring my phone and a Sony PRS-650 instead, the phone handles all internet stuff just fine. Neither a tablet nor the phone hold a candle to the reader when it comes to reading comfort. I do choose the clothes I buy based on whether they have room for my reader.

      --
      Are you a grammar Nazi? I'm trying to improve my English; please correct my errors! :)
    4. Re:Prices by intermodal · · Score: 1

      Personal priority or not, it's the sum of people's priorities that determines what does and does not make a profit.

      --
      In SOVIET RUSSIA... erm...NSA AMERICA, the Internet logs onto YOU!
  26. too many still not available in ebook format by Tumbleweed · · Score: 1

    Only about half of the books I buy are even available in ebook format, and the price isn't always enough less to offset the fact that they have no resale value.

    The convenience factor is only an influencing one if you read on the go a lot, which I generally do not. YMMV, of course.

    If I could convert my entire library (several thousand books) to ebook format for no or VERY minimal cost, I'd probably do it, but that's probably what it would take.

    1. Re:too many still not available in ebook format by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I feel guilty because I use eBooks often, although I have a number of devices I read them on, from an iPad to a Nook HD, to a Kindle Keyboard, and of course a Kindle app on my desktop machine.

      Sometimes there are unsigned authors on Amazon which have some pretty useful/intriguing stuff. If it is someone new, I read it, and then leave a detailed review of good/bad, so the next person coming across it knows if the money spent is worth it or not.

      The biggest advantage of eBooks is portability. Where my phone goes, so does my book collection. When on a vacation (I RV a lot [1]), the Nook HD sees a lot of use.

      [1]: I use RV-ing as a verb, as getting a trailer level, setting up solar panels, checking to see if things work, and other items are not really things I would call camping. Camping is a different set of skills, such as weather checking, finding a good place to drop a tent, cutting weight down to the bare minimum (like ordering jail toothbrushes that fit on a finger instead of using normal ones to save backpack space), and filtering water for a midday drink.

    2. Re:too many still not available in ebook format by Tumbleweed · · Score: 1

      The biggest advantage of eBooks is portability. Where my phone goes, so does my book collection. When on a vacation (I RV a lot [1]), the Nook HD sees a lot of use.

      Yeah, I'm thinking about getting an old Airstream and fixing it up for putting on a cheap plot of vacation land somewhere on the Washington coast, and if that happens, I'm quite sure I'd be doing more e-booking than I do now.

      Most of the ebooks I buy are from new authors who don't have print versions of their books yet, and their ebooks are very fairly priced by comparison.

  27. e-readers, Paperwhite and Tablets by QuasiSteve · · Score: 2

    I'll actually start with the Paperwhite, considering I own one. I rarely use the backlight feature and when I do, rarely at full. In daylight and full sunlight, it's completely unneeded and reading is awesome. Indoors as long as you have decent lighting, still not needed - same as a book. If it's dimmer, adding a little backlight can be nice just to get greater contrast, but it does make my eyes tired more quickly. However, whether that's the backlight, the general lack of ambient light, or the fact that most of those situations tend to be at the end of the day when I'm likely to be tired anyway, I can't really determine.

    As for e-readers vs tablets.. e-readers were initially much cheaper and their very marketing prowess were the ease-on-eyes and the longevity of the battery (5 weeks into vacation, still haven't had to recharge my paperwhite), whereas the tablets were fairly bulky, pricey, with low battery life and not all that much you could do with them.
    Fast forward to now, and tablets get reasonable battery life, are almost all thin and light enough to carry around casually, and cheap enough that I see people getting one for each of their kids to use in the car/etc. And adults, just as kids, don't use these tablets to read. Not because they're necessarily awful to read on, but because they find greater entertainment in playing games (candy crush seems popular around here, along with my singing monsters for those with ipads), watching movies/TV shows, or browsing (mostly youtube).

    Personally I'd still love to see a best-of-both-worlds type display (I suppose velcro'ing an e-reader to the back of a tablet will have to do for now), but I suspect that most people would still be using the result mostly for interactive and video content. But at least if they wanted to read a book there's the eye-friendly display.

  28. Paperback cheaper than e-book version by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Just check the major stores; e-books are often more expensive than the paperback edition (and assuming you can combine a few orders to get free shipping where necessary).

  29. Take a LOSS? A LOSS on eBooks? by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 1

    The cost of an ebook is well over 99% pure profit for someone after the first 10000-20000 sales at $10 a book. (you have sunk costs of editors, proof readers, the writer, person who listed the book and maintained its entry on amazon.)

    --
    She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
  30. Paper is cheaper: Why pay more and get less? by BobC · · Score: 1

    A "mass market paperback" costs $8-$9, while the same book in eBook form costs $10-$12.

    The paperback helps keep the knowledgeable folks at my local bookstore (Mysterious Galaxy) happily employed. The eBook does not.

    My local bookstore often hosts authors for in-person talks. The eBook store does not.

    I share my paperback with friends and family after I read it. Can't do that with a DRM'ed eBook unless I share my eReader too (which is my phone and tablet these days).

    Why PAY for an eBook if it costs more and does so much less?

    The only place eBooks shine is for books that are out of print and out of copyright: Tens of thousands of books are available from Project Gutenberg for free and without DRM.

    1. Re:Paper is cheaper: Why pay more and get less? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      PG is why I got my Kindle, then it broke after I read about 12 books, doing the math, I would have been better served getting the paper-backs.

  31. Tablet Sales by eskwayrd · · Score: 2

    The predominant tablet also takes a 30% cut of in-app purchases, so not so enticing to sell e-books via the apps available.

    --
    eskwayrd = m^2c^4
  32. Price Fixing Killed E-Books by medv4380 · · Score: 1

    Who in their right mind pays the same amount of money for an e-book that they do for a paperback? The rich, and the stupid. Most others know they are being ripped-off.

    1. Re:Price Fixing Killed E-Books by gnasher719 · · Score: 1

      Who in their right mind pays the same amount of money for an e-book that they do for a paperback? The rich, and the stupid. Most others know they are being ripped-off.

      The rich, the stupid, and those who have boxes and boxes full of books that just take up expensive space. If I buy an ebook, I buy it, I read it, and I keep it. If I buy a paper book today, I buy it, I read it, and it goes to the charity shop.

    2. Re:Price Fixing Killed E-Books by Man+Eating+Duck · · Score: 1

      Who in their right mind pays the same amount of money for an e-book that they do for a paperback? The rich, and the stupid. Most others know they are being ripped-off.

      I'm not rich, so I must be stupid. I buy books for the content, and the ebook has the same content in a more convenient format. As always, vendors charge what the market will bear. If a purchase would leave me with a feeling of being ripped off I just don't make it. Be on the lookout for offers, use price-watching services, and you'll get a *lot* of good deals on ebooks. The vast majority of my ebooks where purchased at $7 or less (often far less). At that level the ebooks are absolutely worth the price for me.

      --
      Are you a grammar Nazi? I'm trying to improve my English; please correct my errors! :)
  33. Stupid pricing of Ebooks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Ebooks are way too expensive. Almost always, can find a used book for less than the kindle price. Frequently I can buy the new paperbook for less than the kindle price.

    This doesn't even take into consideration the money I can recover reselling the dead-tree versions.

    The brain dead, obvious, near optimal, pricing strategy is to sell back catalog kindle books at $3, just below the minimum dead tree book cost. This would instantly slaughter the used book marketplace, and capture all those sales.

  34. Audible Rocks by bhlowe · · Score: 1
    I never read books anymore... I spend too much time in front of a computer reading code and everything else.. that the last thing I want to do is strain my eyes on an ebook.

    But I listen to about 2-3 great books a month with audible.com. Expensive... and worth it.

  35. Betteridge says no. by rbpOne · · Score: 1

    And so do i.

    Im currently reading three books, and i really appreciate beeing able to have all three of them, on me, all the time.

    I enjoy reading on my smartphone, way more than paperbooks. Its brilliant reading with a backlit display.

  36. Re:Maybe by MightyYar · · Score: 1

    Those distracting kittens would be a problem if Bush had let Cheney finish the job.

    --
    W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
  37. Bad quality conversions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Almost every single programming book I have purchased are of poor quality.

    Source code Monospace type font is lost, many times using the regular courier font. Syntax highlighting is also lost. That is totally unacceptable and makes the source codes unreadable. Last time this happened to me, I have actually downloaded the (much superior) pirated version of the same book I had just purchased.

    Shame on crappy conversions.

  38. Uh huh by The+Cat · · Score: 1

    Propaganda from the traditional publishers.

  39. No Ebook Reader Innovations by hashish16 · · Score: 1

    Once we get 8" ebook readers with flexible capacitive touchscreens and very light weight, we won't see any growth. These ebook reader innovation is stagnant so the ebook market is stagnant. Too much focus on Android tablets and Ipad development vs. eink tech.

  40. rate of growth by kqc7011 · · Score: 2

    The market share is still expanding, just at a slower rate. Most of us have a basic library of e-books already and are not buying as much as we used to. If the price difference between a electronic published and one printed on paper is not that great, then the tree dies. When a paper book is not one that I am going to read again, off it goes to the used book store for credit on my account. Try doing that with a e-book. Where is this survey getting its data? If the numbers are coming from Association of American Publishers and they (the AAP) are using the big 5's reports then this could be a GIGO problem.

    --
    Passionately Indifferent
  41. No, eBook sales are growing. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    annual sales growth dropped to just 5% in the first quarter

    If growth is still positive (which at 5% per quarter it certainly is) then it hasn't peaked.

    Sales aren't "softening", they are increasing. Only the rate of increase is softening, which means the market is starting to mature.

    Sensationalist headline. Some people can't do math.

  42. Greedy Bastards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    PRICE - They charge the same for eBooks than for paper books. Greedy Bastards.

  43. This may have a simpler explanation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Sales of ebooks for adults increased by 13.6%. That seems healthy to me. The sale of ebooks for children and young adults declined by 30.1%, but that decline wasn't about the format, because the sale of hardcovers to that segment declined even more. It is only the children/young adults market that produced the apparent weakness in ebook growth, and "Nielsen attributes this slowdown to the lack of a star performing title in children’s and young adult publishing in 2013 to replicate the success that Suzanne Collins’ The Hunger Games trilogy enjoyed last year." We may all be trying too hard to find reasons for a supposed trend when all that happened is that we had a year without Harry Potter or equivalent.

  44. The Sonny Bono effect by tepples · · Score: 1

    The problem with relying on Gutenberg is that you'll likely end up getting the impression that the world ended in December 1922.

    1. Re:The Sonny Bono effect by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      LOL, true - but so far I'm enjoying catching up on some classics. The head of our English department in high school had a very unhealthy obsession with Shakespeare, accounting for about 50% of the curriculum. As a result, I missed out on a lot of staples. I'm currently making my way through the complete works of Mark Twain. :)

      (Innocents Abroad is a hoot... the man had a gift for a good insult.)

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    2. Re:The Sonny Bono effect by nospam007 · · Score: 1

      "The problem with relying on Gutenberg is that you'll likely end up getting the impression that the world ended in December 1922."

      Ah, like school then.

    3. Re:The Sonny Bono effect by terrycarlino · · Score: 1

      Well, comparing the trash that generally passes for literature now days with what was available before 1922 one might reasonably come to that conclusion.

  45. Not good enough by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Ebook readers just aren't good enough at the moment, at least for a lot of people. They have a ton of battery! But not enough, books don't need batteries and grabbing your reader to find it's out sucks. The screens aren't as easy to look at as a book either, we need higher contrast and higher PPI screens as well. And the interface just isn't as good either, as convenient as its been simply opening up a book and turning the page once in a while is still simpler and easier.

    I had a Nook, loved the convenience of a new book nigh instantly anytime I wanted, loved being able to carry around one thing on a trip instead of several books. But when it broke it just wasn't worth it to get it fixed, not too mention ebook prices sucked.

  46. Re:Take a LOSS? A LOSS on eBooks? by west · · Score: 2

    Unfortunately, since most books are selling less ~3,000 copies, almost very few books, e-book or otherwise, make a profit.

  47. Amazon always has free books "on sale" by alen · · Score: 1

    I have a huge backlog of reading in front of me
    Dozens of free books every day with some really good ones in there

  48. Why are you paying so much? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Does anyone here ever buy a book that isn't published by a major publishing house? There are some really good self published books on Amazon. They only cost between 0.99 and 5.99 most of the time AND the writer gets most of the money.

  49. Its Extremely Simple... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    People would rather play mindless games than actually read!

    The more ubiquitous "pad" devices become and the more capable smart phones become the less individuals rely on that "outdated" reading thing. Instead they play the latest version of Angry Birds or Sudoku or whatever free time waster they are currently addicted to on their device. My son reads and of all of his friends only one other reads, out of approximately 30 or so casual friends. Its a sad commentary but there you go. *shrug*

  50. The limiting factor is time, not money by west · · Score: 2

    Almost everyone I know with an e-book reader went nuts buying cheap books until they had a few hundred book in the unread pile. Unfortunately, they've got adult jobs, and thus limited time to read. Their book buying went from 10 times normal rate back down to the normal rate.

    I think a lot of people in the industry were hoping that revenue per reader was going to stay constant, even if the readers were buying 5 times as many books at 1/5 the price. Now reality is sinking in. With cheap e-books, people *might* buy 50% more books, which is still a huge decrease in industry income. This is not a merry time to be a publisher, an author, or to have anything to do with the book industry.

    However, once the publishers are gone, Amazon should do very well in the self-published market. Not with readers, of course - who has time to sift through hundreds of books to find the odd readable one. But with desperate authors who want to get promoted. I figure $25K to get a book to show up decently in the Amazon listings is going to make a lot more revenue than Amazon did from selling books.

    It'll just suck if you want to read anything.

  51. Re:Take a LOSS? A LOSS on eBooks? by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 1

    I read that after I posted. It said the average book made less than $300.

    Of course "average" is always a danger. We can't guarantee a profit to books as some (many) (most?) are probably not that good. So you have a lot of zeros in there from books which are essentially vanity efforts.

    --
    She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
  52. William Shakespeare and one's anglophone card by tepples · · Score: 2

    I think the obsession with William Shakespeare is that a lot of memes of the past four centuries have come from his plays. Just as geeks are expected to be familiar with plots of and quotations from certain movies in order to keep their proverbial geek card, anglophones are expected to be familiar with plots of and quotations from Shakespeare's plays to earn what I'll call their "anglophone card." Now the problem with my high school English department was that not only was Shakespeare overrepresented but also the only plays we studied were six of his tragedies, not any comedies or histories.

  53. A drop in growth! by phorm · · Score: 1

    Oh noes! A drop in growth.
    That doesn't mean adoption isn't still growing, or even that it's dropping, it just that it's not growing as quickly as before.

    1. Re:A drop in growth! by ODiV · · Score: 1

      It's crazy how everyone looks at business these days. If you're not experiencing explosive growth then your company is dying, sorry.

    2. Re:A drop in growth! by phorm · · Score: 1

      That's about it. Even if you're making $10,000,000 of profit every years and handing out dividends, it's not enough unless you're making $11,000,000, $12,000,000 etc on consecutive years.

      Greed.

  54. Re:Take a LOSS? A LOSS on eBooks? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The cost of an ebook is well over 99% pure profit for someone after the first 10000-20000 sales at $10 a book. (you have sunk costs of editors, proof readers, the writer, person who listed the book and maintained its entry on amazon.)

    Any more those are all often the same person, even when publishing through an established company.

  55. The Economy Sucks by nurb432 · · Score: 1

    Disposable income is less, so 'luxuries' get pushed down the list.

    Pretty simple.

    --
    ---- Booth was a patriot ----
  56. Re:Maybe by aergern · · Score: 1

    troll

    --
    Tell me what you believe...I'll tell you what you should see.
  57. I wanted to read an old scifi again. 6 bucks. by Marrow · · Score: 1

    6 bucks if I buy the ebook now.

    The paperback was 3.50 at the time it was released.

    They better rebuild all those used bookstores because we are going to need them. Heck, even
    a used bookstore tried to sell the used paperback for more than the face value.
    Gimme a break.

  58. Oh, and my nook read is key bouncing me all over by Marrow · · Score: 1

    The dang books. So much for convenient when it skips 20 pages somewhere else.

  59. Pricing matters... by seebs · · Score: 1

    I have certainly bought ebooks.

    But... I went to look for a book which has been out for a few years. I could buy a paperback for $8 if I wanted to drive somewhere. Or... I could buy an ebook for $12.

    That's gonna cut back on sales a fair bit.

    --
    My blog: http://www.seebs.net/log/ --- My iPhone/iPad app: http://www.seebs.net/seebsfrac/
    1. Re:Pricing matters... by Dcnjoe60 · · Score: 1

      I have certainly bought ebooks.

      But... I went to look for a book which has been out for a few years. I could buy a paperback for $8 if I wanted to drive somewhere. Or... I could buy an ebook for $12.

      That's gonna cut back on sales a fair bit.

      And when you are done with the book, you have the option to give it to someone else or sell it used. But seriously, for years we heard that the price of books was so high because of the actual cost to print them. If that were true then e-books should cost next to nothing, but they don't. Ebooks to publishing are what generic drugs are to health insurance plans. Both save the consumer a little bit of money but save the producer (publisher or insurance plan) a shit load of money.

  60. Yes. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Since the recent attack on alt.binaries.e-book.technical it's all downhill from here.

  61. It's simple by Dcnjoe60 · · Score: 0

    It's simple demographics. Who does the most reading? Older people. Who buys the most tablet devices, younger folks. Simply put, young twits don't read but us old farts do and when we do, we like read words printed on real paper, not e-paper. Besides, if I fall asleep in my chair and my book slips and falls to the floor, I lose my place. If my e-reader/tablet hits the floor, there is a chance that it breaks the screen (and before anybody says buy a case for it, well, if you are going to make it as thick as a book, why not buy a book?).

    In short, like many things in the tech world, ebooks didn't live up to the hype. Maybe it was the pricing. Maybe it was the devices. Maybe it was the marketing. Maybe it was the . But in the end all of those maybes are really just another way of saying that the publishers misread the demographics. It's really simple If you want to sell books (paper or e), you have to look at who is the biggest consumer of books and then put it into a format that the consumer wants. All of the advantages of ebooks don't matter if the consumer wants a real book. It's plain and simple.

    1. Re:It's simple by dbc · · Score: 1

      Who does the most reading? Older people. Who buys the most tablet devices, younger folks.

      Well, I guess I should say "citation needed", because I'd be really interested in seeing the real data. As it turns out, my wife and I are the exceptions to your assertion -- we are both deep into bifocal-ville, and the ability to get large print by pinch zoom is for me one of the great selling points of e-books. My wife is a declutter fiend, and she actually calculated the cost of a cubic foot of bookshelf space based on a Silicon Valley mortgage, and decided that e-books are a financial no-brainer just from the physical space savings.

      She's been pushing me for a long time to get on the e-book bandwagon, but I kept holding off because the rendering of technical material sucked on early Kindles and bretheren. I've been waiting for e-books to become "O'Reilly Ready", that is a Nutshell book has to render well, or it's no-sale. I finally got a Kindle Fire HD about 3 weeks ago. Technical books are decent on it, and I like having my reference bookshelf in my pocket. That said, it still is not as convenient as a paper edition -- it's harder to find things and lacking in contextual feedback about where I am in the book.

    2. Re:It's simple by Dcnjoe60 · · Score: 1

      So are you questioning that older people do more reading than younger people or that older people prefer books? According to B&N, most books are purchased by those over 40.

      From what I read in your post, though, the advantage to e-books is the decluttering it allows and the pinch to zoom. You also list several advantages to paper books. The question is whether or not the advantages of the e-books outweigh those paper books? For many, the answer is no.

  62. Unlike processors by niftymitch · · Score: 1
    Unlike modern processors people do not read any faster.

    i.e. even speed reading is slow speed and has no way to improve beyond a little. The net result is the global consumption of words is limited by literacy which is declining.

    --
    Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't. Mark Twain.
  63. Why aren't ebooks bundled with hardcover copies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I do most of my reading on an iPad. I occasionally buy a book from iBooks, but. Re often buy a hard or soft copy book and then torrent the ebook. There is and always will be an appeal to having books on a bookshelf. If publishers would start bundling (even for a higher price), I would pay for both. Music and movie companies have adopted this policy, why haven't books?

  64. No, we aren't in the mood to be robbed. by arthurh3535 · · Score: 1

    Because buying an electronic edition for twice the cost of a used 'good as new' copy of a book is _incredibly_ dumb. Baen was actually charging the exact same amount for an electronic copy of David Weber's new book as the hard cover.

    For some reason, all the prices on new ebooks have jumped to $10 to $18 or so, at the minimum. So pretty much all of the prices are highway robbery.

    --
    No! It's a *SIG*. Keep the Special Interest Groups away! (Con joke!)
  65. The obvious question by MouseTheLuckyDog · · Score: 1

    No one thinks to ask?
    Are books sales going up to replace declining ebooks sales?
    If books sales are also declining which one is declining more?

  66. unmanaged side-effects by angularbanjo · · Score: 1

    Quite interesting that some comments on here relate to _your_ ability to profit from someone else's work (ie to resell with no profit share, or to reduce your tax liability, disguised as charitable donating). These were unmanaged side-effects of traditional publishing, due to a book's physical nature, but something which they'd have to reinvent as a managed competency, to keep you happy, in the digital realm.

  67. Growing at 5% = Peaked ?! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The author needs to draw a graph then have a good think about what "Peak" means.

  68. Surely it's the price? by rklrkl · · Score: 1

    OK, I haven't RTFA'ed, but the summary here makes no mention of the price of e-books, which is hugely relevant considering that an e-book cartel has been caught price-fixing! My classic example of e-book overpricing was the e-book version of hugely-selling Steve Job biography, which turned out to be more expensive than the hardback. How can any bookseller justify that situation - it *surely* costs more to ship a hardback (this price diff was on Amazon) than an e-book?

    I did eventually buy an e-reader once the Nook Simple Touch hit 29 pounds here in the UK and it's quite hackable (runs an old Android that you can root/install apps on), but I ended up putting Droidfish on it and playing chess (it's really a rather good dedicated chess handheld :-) ) and using my Nexus 7 for document reading.

  69. e-readers vs tablets by ememessien · · Score: 1

    If e-books have peaked it probably has much to do with the increased sale of tablets.The increasingly common "jack of all trades, master of none" devices make for a painful reading experience. There are a few excellent e-readers still on the market and for those who travel across land and sea such devices are a boon (assuming that you enjoy reading in the first place).

  70. You can't present your proud ebook collection by aepervius · · Score: 1

    I have an enormous library of book, worth many 10.000$ if bought new. I long stopped counting the book themselves, but rather count as linear meter of book shelves. If all that was in eBook I would have more place yes, but my narcissic self would not be able to show a nice private library to my guest. I could not lend of those as eBook. When I die, my ebook collection would die with me. My book on the other hand can be resold, gifted, lent, burned for heat, shown in a proud voluminous number of shelves or whatever.

    --
    C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
    visit randi.org
  71. Way too expensive e-books are by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    E-books are way too expensive. For e-books there is no production involved whatsoever en only one unmanned store. There is no need for distribution centers, no need for transportation. The whole chain of stores, employers, &tc is greatly reduced. This must be reflected in the price thus e-books should cost just a fraction of their paper cousin.

  72. Lame beyond belief... by 0m3gaMan · · Score: 1

    ...e-tablets and e-books are. I'd so much rather a bound hardcover or softcover book, printed on paper. When I finish it I can store it in a bookshelf or give it away. Plus, holding and reading a real book is just plain fun--with the added benefit of not making me look like a trendy twit with a tablet.

  73. Drop in the growth rate by drolli · · Score: 1

    If the sales are stable it just means that the time when everybody fills up his ebook shelf with some elementary stuff (textbooks, references, books you will always read) are over. The time where the peak in the grothw rate was coincides with important scientific and technical publishers offering textbooks

  74. The future reader. by DragonMantis · · Score: 1

    Since the education market is just starting to turn more to e-books, more people will be exposed to them as children in elementary, middle, and high schools. This is going to mean that more people will be exposed to e-books earlier in life and get into the habit of using them because the note taking and sharing options are getting more powerful with e-books. As you have more people who grew up with e-books reach adulthood, I think that sales with climb significantly.

  75. Storage? Shipping? Shelf Space? Logistics? by walterbyrd · · Score: 1

    I think the figures you cited are way off. There is a lot you have not accounted for.

  76. ebooks can be self published by walterbyrd · · Score: 1

    I see them on Amazon all the time. Usually for around $1 to $7.

    Maybe this is the way the industry needs to go?

  77. Never happen by Marrow · · Score: 1

    Your hardcover would enter the used bookstore market and your ebook would remain with you. It would cut their sales.

  78. Your Penguin won't be there by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Because they use acid based paper and the book literally browns and fragments in 20-30 years. Forget about giving your favorite books to your children.

  79. e or paper, each has its place by egburr · · Score: 1

    I don't buy many ebooks, mainly because I can often get the same book on paper for the same price (or less!) than the ebook. With the drawbacks of the ebook (difficult or impossible to share, may be disappeared at any time, cannot resell, etc.), I am not willing to pay the same for the ebook as I am for the paper book.

    I do own a kindle and have read a few books on it. But overall, there's just something about the paper book that is a better reading experience.

    What I do like about ebooks is that I can keep one loaded on my phone, so I always have a book available on the spur of the moment when I have an unexpected 10+ minutes of idle time.

    --

    Edward Burr
    Having a smoking section in a restaurant is like having a peeing section in a swimming pool.
  80. Do not want temporary books by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    When I buy a book, I want a book that will be there the rest of my life, not a book in a DRM scheme on a device that will be obsolete in a year or two.

  81. include some figures by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    from pirate bay and you might have some news

  82. You're doing it wrong.. by SD-Arcadia · · Score: 1

    Stop the advertisement-driven madness of "I HAVE TO READ BOOK X NOW!!!".
    Read from the massive catalogue of what's out there for free and never pay for e-books. This is how I recommend you go about it:

    1. Get your e-ink based reader (I recommend the new Kobo Aurahd).
    2. Head over to one of the many sources of out-of-copyright books like http://www.gutenberg.org/. Browse and find stuff you may like. Also keep an eye out for CC-licensed books around the web.
    3. Go forth and indulge in http://libgen.info/ or a similar e-book piracy web site and get your fix, because, well fuck 'em.

    Maybe you won't find every damn book you desire to have right now, but you will find so many good books that are more than enough to last you a lifetime.
    Enjoy the reading and the savings.

    --
    https://dalgamotor.wordpress.com/ - Elektronik beyinlere ozgurluk asisi (Turkish)
    1. Re:You're doing it wrong.. by rochrist · · Score: 1

      Maybe if you truly work at it, you can make authors as extinct as dinosaurs.

  83. Re:Take a LOSS? A LOSS on eBooks? by west · · Score: 1

    If we're talking about self-published books, it seems likely that the median self-pub book makes about 100 sales. The median for a published book is probably about 2-3K. (Hard figures are almost impossible to come by.)

    I've long stopped equating popular with good. They're not opposite, but if you ignore the not-publishable-quality books, I'd say it's orthogonal. As for sales, the main problem for self-publishers is that there's 100,000 books self-published each month. A book that sells 30 copies is not necessarily bad, it's that not enough people will read it (even for free) for it to ever get word-of-mouth, even if it would be good enough to succeed.

    A fundamental problem for the industry is that hard-cover books only cost a little more to print than a trade paperback. The main reason for hard-covers at all is that many readers can't handle the fact that they're paying three times a much to read the book immediately. The HC gives the rabid fan who's willing to pay to read it right away an excuse to themselves as to why they're willing to pay so much. (You'll note that they stop selling HCs as soon as a paperback comes out.)

    With e-books, it's harder to get consumers to pay a substantial amount up front for what will be the same good in a year. There's no convenient myth that the reader can latch their willingness to pay onto, and thus there's a lot more resistance to paying a substantial amount up front. And unfortunately, the extra money from hardcover is what keeps the industry alive.

  84. Ebooks actually account for a majority of sales by mgiltz · · Score: 2

    Huh? But the story says ebooks only account for 25% of sales. Yes, but that's the dollar amount. Look at unit sales. The majority of units sold are ebooks; they just happen to be a lot cheaper. We've just reached the point where more than 50% of actual books sold are in the ebook format. MOST books sold in the US are in the ebook format and the Kindle was only introduced six years ago. That's an amazingly quick adaptation. Wool by Hugh Howey for example is only $6 for the ebook five-parter omnibus edition. At Amazon, it's $9 in paperback and $18 in hardcover. You can find examples where ebooks cost more but even from major publishers they're usually equal or less. Self-published authors of course have ebooks for $3 or $2 or free all the time. This also doesn't take into account the literally endless downloads of public domain titles. You can access literally hundreds of thousands if not millions of titles for free. I've downloaded the complete Dickens and the complete Twain for just a dollar or two each. So ebooks already are preferred a majority of the time and we're probably undercounting by how much. This trend will continue and probably accelerate if and when Barnes & Noble goes out of business or just continues taking away floor space from books and giving it to games and stationery and the like. I do prefer a dedicated ereader to even the best tablet. I never thought I'd abandon print but when you're trying to read a doorstop like the recent Winston Churchill bio or Game of Thrones or War and Peace et al, the idea that anyone could argue print is more convenient is absurd.

  85. Support me and I'll support you by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I used to buy eBooks via Amazon Kindle and read them on my iPad. Then two things happened:

    1. Amazon increased their eBook prices to the point that you're better off buying a second-hand paper edition.

    2. Under pressure from Apple (for their mandatory 30% cut of IAP), Amazon decided that you can no longer buy eBooks through the Kindle app on iOS, you have to go through Kindle on Android or their main web site.

  86. eBooks are now my primary books by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Print is reserved for very, very special books. I've spent way too many decades moving boxes of books. Putting my entire library on one microSD card with a backu in the cloud is simply too awesome. My books are on my Kindle (eInk, you heathens!), my phone, my tablet, my desktop and nearly any other device I want them to be on. My custom made bookshelf at home can't even hold all my books, despite my ex-wife absconding with a good portion of them.

    And before you say it, and I know someone will, I have books from the 60s with yellowing, cracking pages. Books are hardly forever, most are printed on completely shit paper and with bad ink and type. Some also have pretty crappy bindings (one would think that would generally be solved by now).

    I have a goal to be rid of most of my physical books by the end of 2014. I already ditched most of my CD collection and most of my movie collection, yet my access to music and film are better than ever.

  87. My purchasing has certainly peaked by Lord+Bitman · · Score: 1

    The last five books which I attempted to buy were not available for purchase in eBook format. (two of them previously were, but no longer are!)

    Can someone please explain to me why it is that "publishers" don't want free money?

    --
    -- 'The' Lord and Master Bitman On High, Master Of All