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Elon Musk Shows His Vision of Holographic Design Technology
MojoKid writes "Tesla CEO Elon Musk has more on his mind that just cars and 4,000 MPH Hyperloop transportation systems. He also tweeted his intention of developing a hand-manipulated holographic design engine and designing a rocket part with only hand gestures, finally printing the part in titanium." And now Musk has posted the video he promised showing off the design process: "Musk showed a wireframe of the rocket part, and he was able to rotate the 3D object on a screen with one hand, and with a second hand, he zoomed in and out, moved it around the screen, and spun the object around and "caught it"--all in the air. He moved on to manipulating an actual 3D CAD model and interacting with the software; you can see that he used a Leap Motion controller. Next, he shows off a 3D projection, a freestanding glass projection (Ironman style), and interacts with the model using the Oculus Rift. Finally, he prints the part in titanium with a 3D metal printer. Note that we don't actually see him design anything; the models he works with are already made. Still, it's exciting to see new ways of doing things come to life on screen."
he's not really busy, from all that he is doing it seems that he is actually quite bored...
but. uh. how is waving in the air better than mouse and kb with cad?
I get it for model sculptures and such, but we're talking about parts here that you know the dimensions for and they need to be exact and the shape isn't really the thing and you're not going to handwave model a honeycomb structure inside the model(3d printing rulz) anyways are you?
what purpose does this whole pr piece serve?!
world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
I think it's great. Somebody with capital and grand long term visions. Usually you're stuck with one or the other; this is the attitude we should be promoting.
I read TFA and all I got was this lousy cookie
As TFA pointed out, no actual drafting is shown. While it's a nice way to visualize a part, I can't see myself using this to do any actual modeling work with this kind of input (gorilla arm, etc...). We might get there someday, but that'll take a smart input system that doesn't defeat the flexibility of the software in the process.
Nothing to see here.
Nothing is enough for whom enough is too little - Confucius
This shows that touch screens are already obsolete...
“He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
This video is some great gee-whiz showmanship, which gets Joe Sixpack excited about technology and maybe sells a few more Tesla cars a couple years down the road.
But man, I'd hate to try and design anything by holding my hands in the air for six or seven hours a day.
Might be cool for next-generation Kinect-style gaming though.
3D Printing Tips and Tricks at Zheng3.com
Not from what i see... Getting tired of the term being misused.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
It's not and people don't typically use a mouse for CAD. Sure a mouse is used, but most of the actual work is done via keyboard shortcuts because it's both more accurate and faster.
That's not even a good troll.
This is really neat stuff. But really, to me the biggest breakthroughs that Musk has made are bureaucratic. In other words, he cuts out a lot of the BS most everyone else in a large organization has to go through. When they want to try something they just try it. No endless discussions about trade studies. No endless process for getting approval to add an "if" statement to your code. He just has ideas and they try them out.
http://www.rootstrikers.org/
In a nutshell, he shows a gesture-operated wireframe or shaded model viewer. All that was shown was zoom, rotation and moving the clipping plane. It must be impressive for the non-CAD crowd, but I didn't see anything new that was practical, and there are far better viewers already available.
Elon Musk tweeted "Will post video next week of designing a rocket part with hand gestures & then immediately printing it in titanium". But the video says he designed the parts in Unigraphics, so it was NOT designed using hand gestures - unless you count using a mouse as "hand gestures".
Anyone that has used a solids modeling CAD application with a Space Controller in the last 17 years has been able to do pretty much all of this and more (not counting the use of Ti in the printer). But Space Controller + mouse users keep their arms on the desk, rather than waving their arms in the air (fatiguing). So thanks for thinking of us, be we designers do NOT want to hold our hands in the air. We had enough of that crap with light pens.
In all fairness, the one nice thing the video suggests is the gesture-operated viewer might make sense for a standing presenter. The Space Controller requires a flat surface to rest upon, so gesture-operation might make sense for this application.
Place nail here >+
"...try raising your hands in the air 8 hours a day, 5 days a week..."
Good point. It's better to lay your arms out in front of you repetitively pressing keys and buttons for 8 hours a day, 5 days a week. No ill effects from that at all.
http://www.rootstrikers.org/
What is this "alt tab" of which you speak?
You have the right to remain sentient. If you give up the right to remain sentient, you will be elected to public office
Designing 3D parts is tricky business and involves both engineering and lots of skill. What kind of 3D controller you use is usually the least of anybody's worries. Most designers I know use a big screen (no 3D) and a mouse, a tablet, and maybe another 3D controller.
So... when we will see his exo-skeleton rocket suit?
This kind of thing has been done for years/decades, and is used a lot in industry already. I know of many companies that are taking their CATIA or NX models, and visualizing them in VR or CAVE systems. You can even buy software which has been written to solve this problem for you ... you just buy the VR hardware, load your model in, and you can manipulate it. For example, here is a video of something that you can go and buy right now ... http://www.worldviz.com/industries/cad ... the sample video uses a stereo projector and a wand, but you could easily use Leap Motion, a full motion capture system, or whatever hardware you have.
The gestures he shows in the video are also very primitive, and did not appear very intuitive. He spins his hand in one direction, and the model rotates about a different axis. Just spinning a model around is not really designing anything, it is just a preview technique. And in some ways, using a mouse could probably be less fatiguing and more intuitive. The real holy grail is addressing the problem of creating models from scratch. And making them accurately so the designer gets what they want, and typically designers will probably want to use a keyboard so they can enter in exact dimensions. But this is not addressed in the video, but I'm sure everyone will think that is what they actually can do.
But because Elon Musk is doing this and now you are seeing it in the popular media, he must have invented it, right?
If you want to see something really cool, check out this system, the Lockheed SAIL, which was done years and years ago ...
http://www.motionanalysis.com/html/temp/lockheedHIL.html
I think it's great. Somebody with capital and grand long term visions.
Even when you have money and a long term vision, some ideas are just dumb. Like the Segway.
This is one of them.
There's a reason why you only see interfaces like this in the movies, and it's not because the technology isn't there. It's because waving your hands in the air for a whole workday sucks. Someone in this thread mentioned light pens. When you no longer had to hold your arm up to the screen because of the popularity of the mouse, light pens disappeared from everyone's desks.
This interface sucks even in concept.
--
BMO
It's not and people don't typically use a mouse for CAD. Sure a mouse is used, but most of the actual work is done via keyboard shortcuts because it's both more accurate and faster.
So by "people don't typically use a mouse for CAD" you mean people do use a mouse. Uh.... OK.
Sorry, but the mouse is heavily used for CAD. The hot setup is a Space Pilot Pro and a multi-button mouse. Greatly reduces the use of a keyboard.
Place nail here >+
It's a great proof of concept. I got to play with it with the hand controls and 3d glasses. Visually impressive. Works well for examining something, but doesn't feel terribly useful for design because it's not very precise. Technologically, it's still early -- buggy Windows app that crashed on me after 5 minutes of exploration. tl;dr Great first steps.
The hard part is the real science and engineering behind the part. The deep understanding of the material characteristics that are the result of the the metal and the manufacturing process. The lifetime of the part and how it's affected by it's use history. The stress and vibration the part endures. What safety margins you need. And how to get all that in a cost effective way.
Making a 3D image is not engineering the part. It's just a drawing from the most trivial aspect - the dimensions of the part.
I'm a fairly regular (though not extremely skilled) user of 3D CAD software. I suspect that this would extend the time to perform simple tasks when compared with a 2D & a 3D (space) mouse.
The fact that Elon Musk doesn't design a part in his demo is telling. That part is VERY simple to create in today's UIs: a simple revolve of a cross section with a couple of patterned extrusions around the circumference. I see 5 distinct operations, and a more experienced person could probably make it in less. Just a couple minutes for even an amateur like me.
I think other 3D users will agree with me that this will increase the time for common tasks like selecting edges for radius/chamfer/draft and the critical sketching/dimensioning of cross sections for extrusion. A mouse pointer is so precise. To get the same level of accuracy with this system, you'd have to zoom in several times to make sure the correct feature/surface/edge is selected before you can perform any operation.
Creating the 2D drawings, which are still required for actual production, will also take much longer with a system like this.
There are many analogies for non-3D users, such as art programs or scale model/figure painting. I bet this is very similar to a programmer watching Johnny Mnemonic or Swordfish and saying "yeah, hacking doesn't work like that, that's ridiculous".
I've pre-ordered a Myo Armband and I'm hopeful that I can make it do some cool things with my CAD station. But for now I don't see this as anything more than a way to show your Director or VP the cool work you've been doing or communicate issues/challenges in the mechanical design to non-MechE's.
Don't use the word "holographic" or "holography" when the actual display technology has *NOTHING* to do with Holography.
Otherwise, it just makes you sound monkey-level-techwiz stupid...
I should point out that the term "Space Controller" is a trademark for this product:
http://www.spacecontrol.us/spacecontrol-3d-mouse-spacecontroller.html
But I usually see the Logitech 3DConnexion Space Mouse, which is often (incorrectly) called a space controller:
http://www.3dconnexion.com/
Place nail here >+
Exactly! Here's a guy desperately trying to make things as cool as Tony Stark, and people are filled with reasons he shouldn't.
Elon Musk, you can be Ironman. I approve.
John
...how will he solve the ice problem?
What's wrong with a Segway? Self-balancing, 12 MPH, silent, small, compatible with people, and fun to ride?
It's not a dumb idea. Some of the grand visions aren't likely to come to pass, like cities designing themselves around Segways, but the ideas were never dumb.
John
Show it's when you're ready to sell it, or don't show it at all. This is no different from a "concept" mockups that fanboys post in tech forums, that couldn't possibly be manufactured because they ignore economics, usability and sometimes the laws of the nature.
Mod parent up.
Look at the video around 1:54, where Musk is saying "go in there and do what you need to do". But all the video actually shows is someone spinning the model around and using a visual cutting plane to display cross sections. At no point in that video is new geometry created. What I was expecting to see was a breakthrough in how to do engineering design in 3D. It's not there.
Back in the late 1980s, Autodesk built a virtual reality system as an experiment in CAD. They got about as far as Musk, although at lower resolution - you could look at models and manipulate them with a gloves-and-goggles interface, but trying to draw surfaces in free space was really hard. Some people can do it. They can also do clay models freehand. Today, there's Autodesk Mudbox, a 3D sculpting tool which is used by pros who can visualize clearly and in detail in 3D. Watch this video to see one at work. That's impressive work. Now see something similar done with 3D input devices. It's like trying to sculpt while wearing oven mittens, and the results are awful.
Somebody will eventually make this work, but the computer, not the human, will be doing most of the design.
There's a reason why you only see interfaces like this in the movies, and it's not because the technology isn't there. It's because waving your hands in the air for a whole workday sucks.
While true, there are many people stuck doing this -- mostly outside of computer-task work.
On the upside, this could get people to step away from their screens (staring at a computer monitor for a whole workday sucks) and stand up from time to time (sitting for a whole workday is bad for your health). Using hand motions may actually balance out your fitness with your effort, and using a decent 3D display would be helpful for your eyes.
Still sucks though.
Elon, these story tellers go to extreme lengths to invent characters that are impossible, mostly, to actually duplicate. Now You are going "Iron Man" on Them. These publishers covet their readers, and You are taking the food out of their mouths.
What is this "alt tab" of which you speak?
Here of course.
If you watch the video, it's easy to see why nobody demoed designing an actual part—the latency of a Leap Motion is just horrible. So bad that if you don't move your hands very very slowly, it will completely miss the motion.
We really really need a new generation of input devices. Not just to deal with things like the Oculus Rift, but because we're trying to do more things in less time. The mouse is great, but people forget that the only reason the mouse is so great is because it has what is effectively dedicated circuit paths right into the CPU and GPU, including GPU circuits created for the sole purpose of displaying its cursor. The first mice weren't nearly so responsive. Their designers eventually came to the conclusion that the system needed hardware support for a mouse pointer, with little or no software stack at all. In consequence, a mouse has 4 milliseconds of latency. Leap Motion (and everything else) has 250 times that latency. Nothing will compete with the mouse until it can match mouse latency, and that's not going to happen without more cooperation from the rest of the system.
Why do movies like Minority Report and Ironman look so good to us? Because the actor was filmed waving his hands around in empty space, then the computer displays were added in after the fact by special effect artists. And guess which frame the special effect artists painted the reaction in? The exact same frame the motion happened in. So it looks fantastic. Instantly responsive. Unless and until these interfaces actually are that responsive, they will get nowhere.
I used that Autodesk VR rig around 1992. It used a pair of Silicon Graphics workstations - each powered one side of the VR stereoscopic viewfinders. The DataGlove interface was interesting, but not very useful. There was lots of work in stereoscopic displays in the 90's using LCD-shuttered glasses. In fact, it looks a lot like the OP's video.
Place nail here >+
What's wrong with a Segway?
It's too expensive. Amazon is selling the consumer model for ~$6k. A new, really cheap small car can cost $12k. An cheap electric bicycle can cost less than $1k, and a Honda moped can be had for a little over $2k.
It's not a dumb idea.
>goes 12mph
>cost in thousands, indeed as much as a full blown motorcycle.
And what does a good quality bicycle cost at a bike shop? How much does even an e-bike go for?
The Segway is a dumb idea.
--
BMO
Just because you don't like something doesn't mean it's a dumb idea.
I read TFA and all I got was this lousy cookie
Then start marketing light pens. Make a new kind that can be used on LCDs.
See how far that gets you.
Here's a protip: a lot of the hate pointed at Windows 8 involves a touch interface on a desktop operating system.
It's not just me. It's over 40 years of UI research.
--
BMO
While computer screen models and VR goggles can never be holograms, the projection onto glass he shows off is one step away:
Holography is a technique which enables three-dimensional images to be made. It involves the use of a laser, interference, diffraction, light intensity recording and suitable illumination of the recording. The image changes as the position and orientation of the viewing system changes in exactly the same way as if the object were still present, thus making the image appear three-dimensional. (from wikipedia)
So if changing your viewing perspective allowed you to see the object projected onto glass at different angles, this would be legit.
For a nice quick read on the subject, click me!
While none of these facts makes this work in its current state anything more than passively interesting in a practical sense, conceptually this has a lot going on and if future iterations arise, it may well be the engineering breakthrough he's touting. This is like alpha version 0.0.1 - As far as waving your hands and arms around all day, if in the future this can be made into a superior interface, perhaps a lightweight exoskeleton of the future could assist. We are already going cyborg so it's not unthinkable.
Brought to you by Carl's Junior.
I respected Elon a lot more BEFORE I saw this video. Anyone who is involved in the CG industry would laugh at this setup. It's obviously made to either entertain Elon so he thinks his team is 'cutting edge', or it's to wow the world like his Hypertube crock. Either way, I respect him less after watching.
Any child with an ipad can rotate and scale 3d objects with their fingers. Try actually building something beyond a cookie dough figure in it.
I did not see anything that isn't a cheap app already available on the leap motion app store website. Seriously, people who do molecular modeling have set ups like that for decades.
If you don't believe me, go test drive Fold It, the protein folding game. It works with Leap motion and does the same thing. You and use it to engineer molecules by moving the parts around, slicing through them to see 3D crossections, etc...
Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
Did that (keayboard and mouse) for 15 years and 8+ hours a working day, no ill effects so far. If you no not exercise at all outside your KB+Mouse activities, that may be the real problem...
Tomorrow is another day...
Kerbal space program may be more fun for you as a first step.
Tomorrow is another day...
What is with the Elon Musk/Ironman comparisons? Last article that I read about the guy, the reporter implied that the Ironman character was BASED on Musk (nevermind that Ironman has probably been around for longer). It almost makes one wonder if he is trying to encourage the comparison, especially with lame videos like the one from TFA. Maybe he's suffering from some grand delusion. Eh, at any rate it's good for an eyeroll or two.
No no no, it is intended for CEO to visualize whatever their minions are creating. It gives them coolness factor and feel moe empowered. Nothing else.
Tomorrow is another day...
http://spacemice.wikidot.com/spaceball
Any one else notice that even the billionaire can't figure out a decent place to put his computer speakers? They're jammed in behind his monitor just like mine. I don't know why, but that gave me a lot of enjoyment.
What I mean is that people use the mouse to scroll around, and not for the rest of it.
Uh... no. We use the mouse to draw the sketch before we apply the the data-driven parametric dimensions.
And, I don't care how many buttons your mouse has, it does not have more than a keyboard. What's more, only an idiot uses a mouse as a mouse just does not have the level of precision necessary for CAD.
Yes, a keyboard does have more keys, but the 80/20 rule applies. And saying people are stupid for using a mouse tells me you lack the understanding of how a CAD system works.
There probably are novices out there that never bothered to learn the short cuts, but anybody that cares about efficiency or precision is going to be using the keyboard almost exclusively.
I've been doing CAD since 1980. I wrote a CAD application. I've been and AutoCAD and SolidWorks instructor, and run user groups. If you think a mouse if not used, or unsuitable for CAD, the you are either a troll are greatly in need of proper instruction.
Place nail here >+
This new thing may combine some traits of all three of those, but will it come in for under $150? (Which can easily be done by buying a fligh-sim joystick, a trackball, and a mouse.) At least it's showier for presentations and doesn't appear to clutter up the desk.
Why would it have to be under $150? If we're talking industrial CAD applications, money isn't that much of an object as long as it is more effective/efficient. We're not talking hobby work, or making video game models here, we're talking rocket engines. If you can afford to manufacture a working rocket, and launch it, I doubt you care if you break $150 for an input device.
I can do most of my stuff with a $200 point and shoot camera, yet I have a fairly pricey kit... Why? Versitility and increased effectiveness. I don't own the most expensive (or even close to it), because there is a point, for what I need to do, where diminishing returns set in. If I really needed it, and made enough to warrant it, I'd cough up more.
A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government. -edward abbey
It's dangerous to get too caught up into the idea of 'gorilla arm.' Gorilla arm is a real thing, and it has ruined a lot of potential interface ideas, but
consider now all that tablets that have touch screens. There are plenty of ways around the problem, and holding your arms up isn't bad if you have decent ergonomics (conductors do it a lot, and a lot of people gesticulate while talking for long periods of time. Holding your arms at the level of your diaphram is different than holding them at eye level). By changing the monitor gorilla arm could go away. There's no reason monitors have to be put on your desk vertically.
Gorilla arm is just a problem that needs to be solved. It doesn't mean that every device with a touch-screen is doomed.
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
So he mapped a Leap Motion controller into NX and made it viewable on an Oculus Rift... or more accurately, the code monkeys who work for him did. I remain unimpressed.
conductors do it a lot, and a lot of people gesticulate while talking for long periods of time.
For 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, 40 weeks a year?
Your argument is invalid.
Some do it 60 hours a week.
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
>It's possible to have a desk with a sunken monitor, so you don't have to lift your arm so much.
>There's no reason monitors have to be put on your desk vertically.
But there's a reason why this isn't popular. Because you get a crick in your neck if you're looking down all day. The only desks I see where the monitor is sunken and tilted at an angle are "executive" desks that cater to the suits.
Sinking and tilting the monitor creates new problems.
Touch is great on tablets and other devices where the environment is hostile to keyboards and mice. Touch screens can be good (but not great, I'll get to this in the postscript) for machine tool front panel controls, for example. Carrying around a keyboard with you everywhere with a tablet sucks. Thus, touch. This is fine.
But touch on a desktop OS, except for edge cases, is nuts.
--
BMO
PS: Using a touchscreen instead of a front panel with physical switches removes one-handed "blind" operation - where you can look at the work being done and not at the front panel, and switch/knob identification by feel. A stop switch feels different than the sunken and guarded start switch.
But there's a reason why this isn't popular. Because you get a crick in your neck if you're looking down all day.
I don't think that's really a problem. I went all through school looking down at my desk without getting a crick in my neck.
Overall I agree with you that there are problems with touch screens and alternate interfaces. The difference is that I see them as obstacles to be overcome, not insuperable eternal laws. For this to succeed Elon Musk is going to have to show how he's overcome these problems, but unfortunately it doesn't seem like he's really thought of them.
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
"I went all through school looking down at my desk without getting a crick in my neck."
You weren't 47 years old.
"The difference is that I see them as obstacles to be overcome"
Just because something is of old design doesn't mean it's crap. We are all still human with human limitations, and until we all become disembodied and living in the Singularity (spit) we are going to have to have interfaces and tools that match our anatomy.
--
BMO
Conductors? No: http://www.childrensmusicworkshop.com/resources/articles/prosandcons.html
For the other part, you're going to have to give examples. I'd like to say up front that gesticulating while talking is generally facultative.
I'd like to say up front that gesticulating while talking is generally facultative.
ok, keep going along that line of reasoning and you'll actually end up agreeing with me.
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
we are going to have to have interfaces and tools that match our anatomy.
Well mouse and monitor sitting in a chair at a desk definitely isn't that. It's just what we cope with until something better comes along. I get mouse pains in my hand and I'm still not 47.
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
I get mouse pains in my hand and I'm still not 47
1. Use different devices.
a: Change your mouse. I thought I had a great mouse when the Logitech MX1000 came out, until my arm hurt from my wrist to my shoulder after two weeks.
b: use a different device entirely. Try a trackball. There are also are foot-controlled "mice"
http://bilila.com/foot_mouse_slipper_mouse
2. Raise your arm or lower the mouse and support your arm from the wrist to your elbow. This helped me a lot.
Disclaimer: this is not medical advice. It's just my own experience.
--
BMO
See? You're great at thinking of solutions to mouse problems. If only Elon were so creative in overcoming holographic problems.
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
Just because I am against one use case doesn't mean I'm against others.
--
BMO
Right. Because when you only have a touch or 3D waving interface you can choose to not use it at any time?
Also, I'm still waiting for your examples.
I get mouse pains in my hand and I'm still not 47.
Gratuitous tip: it may or may not apply to your case, but I've found that for me (and a number of my friends) the problem resides in (slightly) cramped muscles compressing nerves indicated here: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a7/Nerves_of_the_left_upper_extremity.gif
Specifically, compression of the nervus ulnaris and of the nervus interosseus antebrachii anterior:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulnar_nerve_entrapment
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anterior_interosseous_nerve
When I experience discomfort in either of my hands (which I rarely do nowadays and used to very frequently), just massaging my biceps and my triceps right above my elbow on the inside (where the ulnar nerve is) makes it disappear instantly. I believe (2) from bmo's sibling post actually helps preventing your arm muscles from becoming slightly cramped in the first place.
I will add that I have also forced myself to become ambidextrous to the point where I can use my mouse with either my left or right hand without really noticing on which side it is. Also: I use a light mouse and a Logitech K800 keyboard (an amazing keyboard on many fronts).
If you don't know it, I have no need to teach you.
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
thanks
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
That's alright, I don't mind if I miss Talking Bullshit 101.