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UK Prime Minister Threatens To Block Further Snowden Revelations
Bruce66423 writes "From the article: 'In a statement to MPs on Monday about last week's European summit in Brussels, where he warned of the dangers of a "lah-di-dah, airy-fairy view" about the dangers of leaks, the prime minister said his preference was to talk to newspapers rather than resort to the courts. But he said it would be difficult to avoid acting if newspapers declined to heed government advice.' So that will achieve something won't it? Don't these politicians understand that blocking publication in just the UK achieves nothing? The information is held outside the UK, and will be published there; all he's doing is showing his real colors."
I remember reading about these NSA revelations years before Edward Snowden disclosed them...on the Russian Times web site.
Guess we'll have to go back to relying on the Russian press to defend freedom and print the truth.
Ugh...I think I just threw up in my mouth.
"Once we've identified and embraced our sickness, we'll have strength...and that's when we get dangerous." - John Waters
Wonder how much pressure the PM is getting from Washington?
Only the State obtains its revenue by coercion. - Murray Rothbard
Really, how much does the UK have to hide? There must be something they want to hide, or we (the US) are just forcing them. Either way, its pathetic, and doomed to fail on their part. If you manage to stop the UK newspapers, all you will accomplish is to lower those newspaper's value, it won't hide the information from anyone.
...complete lack of surprise.
Will someone remember Snowden is pointing out info to everyone. The most important info. Heck, the Russians pale in comparison to the dangers of the NSA. Ever heard of transparency? Got a clue?
'Nough Said Dano. Case Closed. Move Along. Nothing Here.
While Paul Bernardo was being tried information about the girls he tortured and killed was kept gagged for newspapers in Canada. In the US, of course, it was published legally. Canadians crossed the border and bought whatever rag had it on the front page and simply brought the newspaper back over the border and passed it around the office.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Bernardo#Publication_ban
Nowadays you don't even have to go through that amount of difficulty. What a giant waste of time.
Please, please. I don't care about politics, but would be his much greater fan from them on.
The kind of PM talk UK newspapers can expect
Questions raise, answers kill. Raise questions to stay alive.
um. No he's revealing info to everyone.. No country claiming to be a bastion of freedom should be in the business of mass data collection of its citizens' comings and goings. The criminals are the politicians in washington DC. Hell, the russian government probably already knows more about the USA domestic spying activities than its own citizens do.
I feel so airy-fairy about this stuff.
Will someone point out that Snowdon is probably revealing info to the Russians?
Why? Don't they have their own subscription to The Guardian?
Have gnu, will travel.
So Gen. Alexander releases a propaganda video saying he believes the journalists releasing the stories ought to be silenced, and now the UK is echoing that? It seems to me that we are well on our way to the point of no return.
Do what you can, with what you have, where you are.
than let people imagine the worst.
your thin skin doesn't make me a troll
They're reporting this evening Sen. Feinstein is backpedaling on surveillance after defending the NSA's crimes all summer. Did one of her grandchildren chew her out for turning the country into a police state? Or is she so stupid that she hasn't actually paid attention to the issue and its implications til now? Or is it a dodge to deflect the criticism until the public forgets and moves on and all can return to status quo ante?
Honestly, I'm kind of to the point where the situation won't be made right until the people at the NSA responsible for this are in prison, the NSA is dismantled, and everyone in the Whitehouse and Congress are impeached and thrown into the deepest, darkest hole we've got.
Do what you can, with what you have, where you are.
Over and over governments have fallen and change has been driven when secrets become known. This is because information is the only real source of power. Controlling what information gets out, and what information you have is real power. Any person who has been in government or even a large organization quickly realizes this and those who thrive in these organizations have taken this to heart.
So this is why governments spend so much effort in "massaging" information and are happy to have things kept secret for a hundred different reasons such as "privacy" or "security" but the simple truth is that once the population has this information they now have the power and this is the scariest of all scenarios for people who want power.
As I said, just look at the history of leaks, in the UK you had ministers that were terrible and people wanted them gone, yet they not only stayed but were regularly re-elected because people didn't have the solid information that could sway an electorate. Then the expenses scandal came out with solid information about people lying, cheating, and repairing their moats and in a flash they were gone. Prior to the leak the public was fed a filtered version of the MP expenses. In the US you had Nixon get turfed from office when he lost control of the information. The key being concrete evidence of what was happening in the oval office. The media loves their dueling opinions but people can tell the differences between narrative, opinion, and cold hard facts. I very much doubt these bozos care one iota about the whole protecting the country part of these revelations but they do care about losing their ability to spy on anyone who is making them look bad or getting in the way of their rich friends. And they really hate the fact that these revelations prove them to be liars themselves.
But the worst part for these people is that the media is no longer just a few media barons that they can be clubby with. In years past they may very well have been able to keep a lid on this through that alone. But now the traditional media is no longer local. So even if none of the press in one country runs a story other countries' press cores will and then there are the million micro media sites. They will all run with anything they can get their hands on.
I love it!
I guess it's a pretty good bet that Snowden got hold of something nice and juicy about what Cameron's Tory government has been up to.
I can't help but look forward to the revelation, and wonder exactly how that jumped-up little fascist thinks he's going to prevent people in Britain from finding out. Will they be legally required to go around with their eyes squinted and their fingers in their ears?
This should be fun!
I've calculated my velocity with such exquisite precision that I have no idea where I am.
Cameron is a COMPLETE idiot!
In order to block out the singing of the Snowden? Buy a good pair of noise canceling head phones. I just go and micro wave a bag of popcorn. Because lets face it, to say, "I found in on the 'net just doesn't get old."
"In a time of necessity, all things are permitted." The gist of the Nazi party, in the mid 1930's.
"In a time of necessity, all things are permitted." The gist of the Tories in England and American Democrats, in the mid 2010's.
Truly these countries have lost there way, when the means to protect The Free World, is the means to shut down The Free World.
If your government shuts down freedom. Shut down your government.
Freedom Forever.
GreekGeek.
Dear James Cameron,
You might ring Barbra Streisand and ask her how this'll work out for you.
Love,
The Internet
to block the inbred UK PM from saying any further shit.
First the government abused foreigners, and the press did nothing.
Then the government started abusing its own citizens, and the press did nothing.
Then the government started abusing the press...
"Once we've identified and embraced our sickness, we'll have strength...and that's when we get dangerous." - John Waters
Incorrect: According to Snowden, the laptops he brought to Russia were empty. Shockingly the internet exists making physical transport of data unnecessary. He doesn't have control and probably access over the information anymore. That is why Cameron is attacking the news outlets now. http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/10/14/snowden_decoy_laptops_russia_china/
Easy. He'll just order everyone in his country to close their ears and turn off their internet! LOL.
Sure makes me wonder what the heck has government of England got it self involved into... Must be something really bad if PM is making threats to news outlets. Personally i'm glad Snowden decided to reveal what e knows. Now we all get to know exactly how much NSA has been spying on us all. Long live the queen, down the PM.
Can someone explain it to me, why US/UK/etc. governments are so freaking afraid of leaks, when apparently it's such a common knowledge that everyone spies on everyone, including their friends and allies?!
Shouldn't it be, if you haven't done anything wrong, you shouldn't be afraid of the truth? Since enemies of any state already assume they are being spied on anyway?
I mean, I can understand if the leaks included real names of agents and informants, or were putting real people in real danger of being killed in some other way. But at this point it's all just about governments lying to the people and each other, and about politicians losing all credibility. Oh, wait, I think I just answered my own question...
Wonder how much pressure the PM is getting from Washington?
About strings... maybe "tension" or "pull" instead of pressure? (imagine one trying to push a piece of string)
Questions raise, answers kill. Raise questions to stay alive.
Why? Don't they have their own subscription to The Guardian?
One interesting thing about threats is that you absolutely must be able to follow through and the threats most be seen as a positive action. Cameron has just put his head in a noose. (Well, more than usual)
When The Guardian publishes again --- which it absolutely will --- he can choose to do nothing and further relinquish control, further harming himself politically. Or he can take it to the courts like he threatened, spending a fortune trying to get an unpopular order which will also harm him politically. If he succeeds at getting the order all it will do is make the UK government and the crown look even more the fools. He is playing a game that has no winning moves.
By all means, I hope he continues to make threats like this. If he doesn't follow through he will be seen as weak, and if he does follow through he will become even more unpopular. Boris Johnson is already twice as popular in the polls, Cameron is already less popular than his party (which is also rapidly sinking) and idiotic statements like this will just cause the ship to sink faster.
Mr Cameron, every time you open your mouth you make it easier for those who will oppose your party in 2015. Please carry on.
//TODO: Think of witty sig statement
That's probably just a consequence of having the ability to collect such data. I'm more worried about they way they encourage people they have a problem with to engage in illegal activities just so that they can arrest them. Or the way the way laws have been passed prohibiting recreational drug use, effectively declaring 10% or so of the population to be criminals. Them tracking our comings and goings wouldn't be such a problem if our innocent activities weren't illegal in the first place.
So basically you'll trust a whistleblower who has climbed the ranks high enough to access top secret information in the U.S.'s intelligence service, Russia's intelligence service, and China's intelligence service? But what if this whistleblower dosn't release information that's embarrassing to Paraguay, too? How could you then trust that he wasn't just a shill for some Latin American strongmen? Hmmmm?
Of course, it depends on who is counting the votes.
Why don't they just release the remaining data before the UK implement the block?
so as to feel so defensive about what they have done to dismantle the liberties and freedoms that we all hold dear? Listening to these bureaucrats quip is more than just a nuisance, these guys have power to summon the government to imprison or send a drone to your home. Maybe we should all wait patiently until the whole government collapses. *chill* if that is the only hope we have then that is a scary thought.
Society use your Sciences
Not true; many parts are still missing. But he's pulling himself together, so to speak.
We're living in an age where the government wants to know everything about you but you are not allowed to know anything about the government. It's what I would like to call a democrazy.
someone needs to just wipe out america and its little bitch allies
hey germany give it another go, you probably wont look like the bad guys this time... you know what i'm talking about
The Grauniad is printed as several editions in several locations. The best way to answer this would be to print the British edition with large amounts of white space entitled "Censored" on the pages that the foreign editions have articles that contain information obtained from Snowden. The British people would then go online to see the information which would harm the British press but harm the British government more.
When The Guardian publishes again --- which it absolutely will --- he can choose to do nothing and further relinquish control, further harming himself politically. Or he can take it to the courts like he threatened, spending a fortune trying to get an unpopular order which will also harm him politically. If he succeeds at getting the order all it will do is make the UK government and the crown look even more the fools. He is playing a game that has no winning moves.
Let's change how we look at David Cameron. Instead of viewing him as the PM, look at him instead as a very expensive property of the Murdochs. How much would Rupert and his clan pay to finally silence the Guardian or any joint willing to publish in the UK? Who cares if their latest pawn (Cameron) goes down in flames - they'll just bribe the opposition or push one of their other pawns forward.
Make sure everyone's vote counts: Verified Voting
The Guardian may be releasing info but they are under pressure by UK authorities and the US, but Japan would have no problem with it because quite honestly they gave the finger to the NSA a few days ago. What will the US do? Wage war against Japan? If they do that then the American people will wage war against its own government. Nobody fucks with Japan (or Canada for that matter). I would say let Canada do it but they are the US's bitch so they can't exactly do anything and plus they are still regulated by the Queen.
More than three hundred years after the Glorious Revolution, the U.K. has a freaking P.M. who thinks is an absolute monarch. Perhaps it is time for another revolution.
Off with his head!
Be very, very careful what you put into that head, because you will never, ever get it out. - Cardinal Wolsey
So basically you'll trust a whistleblower who has climbed the ranks high enough to access top secret information in the U.S.'s intelligence service, Russia's intelligence service, and China's intelligence service?
Any one will do, U.S., Russian or Chinese security. Each will have dirt on the other two.
Why only the Guardian? As far I am aware UK is in track well with China and Pakistan, having Internet censorship already in place.
how that jumped-up little fascist thinks he's going to prevent people in Britain from finding out
I think he's 184cm isn't he? That's not such a little fascist, it's more of a fairly sizeable fascist isn't it?
Admit it. 'Six foot fascist' is so much more fun to say than 'one hundred eighty-four centimeter fascist'.
Cameron is a COMPLETE idiot!
Not true; many parts are still missing. But he's pulling himself together, so to speak.
He's almost all there, but for shame and common sense.
Gosh, thanks. That must be why the other ships call me Meatfucker -- GCU Grey Area (Eccentric)
Looking forward to the Queen curtly saying, "I think we've about heard enough from you" to Cameron.
This just makes it even more understandable that George Orwell came from England. You write what you know. It is amazing that from what he knew growing up in England, that he could predict many aspects of the future the way he did.
-- I ignore anonymous replies to my comments and postings.
One dark possibility is the PM going all past US policy for real. He could just start locking up everyone involved his government could get their hands on. Then the governments in question could use extrodinary rendetion to get the rest. If other governmants would not cooperate (Brazil) then start killing those held to be responsible(Greenwald and the offending editors). Given the claimed targeted killing and extraordinary rendition powers already used the only differences would be the scale of non legal behavior and the targets. This use of power would make some use of supression of dissent necessary. When governments go all out with no regard for any laws domestic or international the offending parties can be removed from the playing field. With the help of the US it could be done. Lets hope cooler heads prevail.
he warned of the dangers of a "lah-di-dah, airy-fairy view" about the dangers of leaks
Tell you what, I'm worried about the dangers of a "lah-di-dah, airy-fairy view" about the dangers of a surveillance state (I apologize for the repetitive use of the word "danger" here, but I am just following Cameron's lead in this particular regard). As are the leakers, apparently, and for good reason.
Glen Greenwald has continually made what are essentially libellous accusations and caused a great deal of difficulty in terms of international relations both within the West and between Western and non Western nations. Now if he actually had and was releasing evidence to back up his claims that would be all fine and dandy, but he doesn't. He makes all these grandiose claims and then releases nothing of any substance to back them up, and he's had all the evidence he's ever going to get since the very beginning so there's no need for him to do this.
Whatever you might think of Edward Snowden, Greenwald is a self serving narcissist who is far more concerned with milking this story for his own personal aggrandizement than he is in actually contributing to the discussion about the proper use of surveillance. He should release what he actually has immediately and stop editorializing.
A "Gaga order" then?
"In our tactical decisions, we are operating contrary to our strategic interest."
But the US just lost the last little piece of credibility it had. All things US are fair game now. The Russians are crooks to, but they don't pretend otherwise.
He is playing a game that has no winning moves.
True. But he's undoubtedly doing it under orders from his US masters - who don't care whether he gets re-elected or not. The UK has for a very long time now been a client kingdom of the US. One of their main roles on behalf of their masters is to disrupt the EU as much as possible, but they have to carry out other menial tasks too.
I reckon a select number of government officials are shitting bricks not because of what has already been revealed, but what remains. This irrational, dangerous behavior by Cameron tells me that whatever it is, it's huge.
:wq
Honestly, I'm kind of to the point where the situation won't be made right until the people at the NSA responsible for this are in prison, the NSA is dismantled, and everyone in the Whitehouse and Congress are impeached and thrown into the deepest, darkest hole we've got.
They are already in congress. You don't get much more of a quagmire.
It's quite unimportant how much some Edward Snowden has been lying (not so much, it would seem by the way). The salient point is how much your own government has been lying to you, and how much your secret services have been lying to both your government and you. Nobody so far has tried claiming that the released documents were doctored by Snowden. So the veracity of the relevations is not in question.
Snowden could be a shill for Hitler and that would not be relevant. What is relevant is that your government chooses to be a shill for Hitler, bringing back fascism into the world.
At no point have the people or organisations outed by these allegations claimed his information is fabricated; in effect they've admitted its truth, so there's no libel involved. Given that Snowden DID have access to the data and turned it over promptly, the most likely hypothesis is that it's accurate, and certainly the sight of Obama in practice admitting that the NSA had intercepted Merkel's personal phone calls gives the rest of it credibility. There is a debate to be had as to whether there has been damage to the appropriate data gathering abilities of the intelligence services; that's the argument that is being advanced by both Cameron and Alexander. However their credibility is rather shot given that they've been shown to have misled about it in the past. The Guardian has claimed that it's offered spooks the chance to comment on the material before publication, and that they have been careful to avoid the obviously damaging. Overall it is clear that there has been an abuse of power and that this has been the only way that it has been exposed to the point where something has been done about it (the NSA has stopped intercepting Merkel's phone calls). Coincidence?
Or if the response of the public is sufficiently negative to this then Cameron may be forced out, so Murdoch gets a better leader for the next election...
#goodfuckingluck
We demand the journalists to censor themselves
I'm more surprised that the Guardian et. al haven't been torrenting these revelations like Julian Assange did with his Wikileaks Insurance.
Did someone say "Streisand Effekt" ?
Unless there is even MORE damaging things which the US and NSA have done.
More recently, as a form of damage control no doubt, were assertions by both the POTUS and the NSA that the POTUS didn't know about many things. Okay great. If it's true, then shut down the NSA as it is clearly an executive branch activity which is not within the knowledge or control of the executive. "It's not his fault! He didn't know!!" Really? You're that far out of control? And he's not in control?! Get rid of both! That's a pretty damning admission if you ask me.
You have to wonder what is Cameron so afraid of?
Polish prime minister sang the very same tune when it was revealed CIA had concentration camp in Poland during his tenure. Why are those high ranking politicians clearly betraying their own constituency?
Who logs in to gdm? Not I, said the duck.
Even if they try their best to do this. Every article, blog post, every news program always reflects point of view of whoever created this content. Even if such person tries his/hers best to be as objective as possible, it is impossible to avoid bias.
The only truth is what you see yourself which is of course impossible for practical reasons. The second best approximation is to snort though raw footage and original materials. This is very time consuming task and it is also impractical for anyone who is not a professional investigative journalist.
This brings us to preprocessed and prepackaged information spewed by either mainstream or alternative media. What works for me is to assume that they all have a lot of spin in their content and that every spin doctor uses at least partially true arguments supporting his/her position at first, is quiet about arguments contrary to his/her position and resorts to lies and fabrications only if all other alternatives fail. So I'm trying to read arguments of all adversary sides (US media, european media, russian media, chinese media, iranian media) and then use my head to sort out things - pretty much 'Scherlock style' deduction. Unfortunately this requires some time and effort, which most of people do not want to expend.
Very unpleasant thing about this is that western media perform very poorly in this regard, especially since run-up to Iraq war. I attribute this to general situation and 'lack of good arguments' on western side - which directly correlates to our latest economic (2008 crash and afterwards) and social (rise of police state) troubles. We now see things going from bad to worse: UK blocking PressTV, UK government forcing Guardian to destroy its computers, now UK PM threatening all newspapers if they do not obey his demands. The same in the US: Obama prosecuting and jailing more than twice as many whistleblowers as all his predecessors combined, US blocking RT, huge assault on journalists, with some of them propably murdered by government thugs to silence and send a message (Michael Hastings). We are certainly not better in this regard than government controlled eastern media and I suspect we might even crossed point of no return in our way have only to strictly controlled, totalitarian media spewing nothing but lies and propaganda.
USA knew about USSR more than USSR citizens. Well, it is at least fair.
To suggest that the Guardian's attitude towards the Snowden leak as "lah-di-dah" is, as far as I'm aware, the most insulting thing this bastard has said all year (which is really saying something). I hope this piece of shit is soon divorced from the power it wields.
You don't think that any data storage server outside of the Guardian could have an 'accident' and have all of it's data destroyed? Or how about any files that the Guardian has created in the past few months?
And how long could the Guardian survive if the website was blocked or DDOS's and the paper wasn't printed for one reason or another?
The PM wants the newspaper to stop publishing because it will be a "threat to national security". Well, maybe they should have thought of that before they did all the things that are now being published. If they'd not done those things and not have been so clumsy with their dirty little secrets, national security wouldn't be at stake now. They clearly brought this problem on themselves and the publishing of these facts is just a symptom of their own threatening national security with their own actions. Don't blame a newspaper for publishing news. Blame the people that did the stupid things that are now being published.
I was promised a flying car. Where is my flying car?
David cameron is worried about people found out about why his child died? and other details that would have in suicide watch in seconds if revealed and I would need to step down immediately.
Snowden only ended up in Russia because Obama cancelled his passport mid flight. He had no way of traveling anywhere after that. Snowden is in Russia because that is where Obama wants him to be. Obama can paint him as a traitor or whatever and all the slack-jawed knuckle-draggers
in the US will go along with it.
I agree, Cameron is coming over more and more like a complete twat. The Labor party will be back in power at the next election because of him.
Facts are history now plebs have politics for religion on social media.
However, lots of votes will at least make ignoring the call embarrassing. Even the americans are claiming to review the situation.
http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/51959
where he warned of the dangers of a "lah-di-dah, airy-fairy view"
Well, I'm glad we can at least have an intelligent debate about the issue.
Science is all about firing a drunk pig out of a cannon just to see what happens.
...Don't these politicians understand that blocking publication in just the UK achieves nothing? The information is held outside the UK, and will be published there; all he's doing is showing his real colors"
These politicians all have a strong track record of saying one thing and doing nothing. In the past, Cameron famously gave a 'cast-iron' promise just before an election, and ignored it immediately afterwards.
If Cameron is talking about blocking something, that means he wants to give the impression that he's doing something. It does NOT mean that he WILL do anything...
Here, I'll just copy/paste myself, WRT threat narrative:
Just a reminder: Heart Disease and Accidents cause more deaths every single year than over four hundred 9/11's. It's been over a decade now... That's more than 4000 September 11th sized attacks. Are you scared to eat and/or drive now? That's how fucking pathetic the fear narrative is.
This is America. We drive fast cars to fast food restaurants without a second thought. You want me to continue to ALLOW an expensive totalitarian spying apparatus to protect us from 0.00025 the danger we face from cars and cheeseburgers? What the fuck can the ineffectual terrorists do? If the NSA wanted to protect us they'd be making tastier health food and building self driving cars or the Hyper-Loop.
Now, that's ACTUAL terrorist attacks vs automobiles and junk food I'm talking about. You can imagine the threat from the leaks is ridiculously minuscule in comparison. As a scientist, when confronted with extraordinary claims, especially about threats, my immediate response is to shout: PROVE IT!
Now, I'm not from the UK, however, I suspect midges aren't feared as eye-pecking vultures over there. Free yourself from the threat narrative. Godwin be damned, bowing to such notions is how you wind up slaughtering Jews, Internment Camping Japanese, Victims of population control in Vietnam, and with Stasi-style police forces.
Use fear to win political goals? Fuck right off, Terrorist!
After pulling out several meters and the bag still not being empty, it should be pretty clear that the animal we are talking about is not actually a cat.
One thing to consider is propsed Royal Charter for Press Regulation. It's a pretty hot topic here at the moment and a trial started yesterday for the two people at the centre of the whole debarcle, who just so happen to be good friends of Cameron.
One potential win out of Cameron's stance is that people lose faith in governments ability to regulate the press and so leave them unregulated, much to the pleasure of his friends...
Just a thought.
My main concern is what the NSA is doing to Americans, not what Paraguay may be doing.
Cameron is a COMPLETE idiot!
Not true; many parts are still missing. But he's pulling himself together, so to speak.
He's almost all there, but for shame and common sense.
Ok, you claim the difference between Cameron and a COMPLETE idiot is shame and common sense.
I'll take your word for it, but can't figure out the sign of the difference on my own.
colours*
I don't know, Ed Milliband is working hard to make sure that doesn't happen.
Technically he is a traitor, but that doesn't of course mean that what he did was wrong.
The journalists that have the data need to do what wikileaks did: encrypt the entire Snowden information and upload it as a torrent.
As long as there are only a few people with access to the data there is a threat the spy agencies will go after them directly. They need to know that if they try that then everything will be released to the public at once.
Boris Johnson has always been popular. He's a very intelligent individual who plays the affable buffoon role to perfection and so seems unthreatening. However, polls asking whether he'd make a good prime minister have consistently shown a lot less support than ones just judging his popularity. This may change as a result of his time as Mayor of London, but it would still be a big gamble for the Conservatives.
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
You said, of Snowden ...
Technically he is a traitor ...
Would you be so kindly tell us how would you define your term of " Technically " ?
What Mr. Edward Snowden did was not treacherous to the country of the United States of America.
No.
Just because the Obama Administration that called Edward Snowden a "traitor" doesn't make it so.
Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
Cameron is a total ID10T... If the British people don't remove him from office pdq, then they have just what they deserve!
Will someone remember Snowden is pointing out info to everyone. The most important info. Heck, the Russians pale in comparison to the dangers of the NSA. Ever heard of transparency? Got a clue?
Interesting comment from an Anonymous Coward, and provably wrong. I think you would have to point to genuine transparency on the part of Russia. As to the danger of Russia compared to NSA, to start with, NSA doesn't have nuclear weapons aimed at NATO countries, Russia does, and that's not all. Russia has apparently continued the former Soviet practice of killing dissidents and defectors. Of course Snowden was welcomed to Russia after he made arrangements with the Russian consulate in Hong Kong.
Russian general says Poland a nuclear 'target'
Number of Russian spies in the UK back to Cold War levels, say security services
Russia supported Litvinenko murder, says security official
The Russian government supported the murder of the former Russian spy Alexander Litvinenko, it was reported last night.
A senior security official told BBC's Newsnight there were "very strong indications it was a state action" and that the Russian security services continued to have a "willingness to consider operations against people in the west".
Last year, the CPS issued an extradition warrant to bring Lugovoi back to the UK from Russia, but Putin refused to hand him over, saying it would be in breach of his country's constitution to do so.
Newsnight said it was told Russia's internal security organisation, the FSB, operated with far more autonomy than organisations usually entrusted with foreign espionage operations.
The source said: "We very strongly believe the Litvinenko case to have had some state involvement."
The source used an MI5 operation last summer in which officers arrested and deported a man they believed to be on a mission to kill another Russian dissident, Boris Berezovsky, as an example of "continued FSB willingness to consider operations against people in the west".
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
As the Americans learned so painfully in Earth's final century, free flow of information is the only safeguard against tyranny. The once-chained people whose leaders at last lose their grip on information flow will soon burst with freedom and vitality, but the free nation gradually constricting its grip on public discourse has begun its rapid slide into despotism. Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master.
Commissioner Pravin Lal, "U.N. Declaration of Rights"
Openly opposing a democratic society in this way, has made his position untenable.
He just wants to show his master that he's a good puppy.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Given that:
1. Information is held outside the UK
2. Information will be published and will be available to UK subjects but not in their national press
3. All arguments made against these information leaks have been around preventing terrorists becoming aware of this information
Its clear that 3. in the context of point 1. and 2. is non-sensical.
This is about a political game around manipulating public opinion and in restricting information that the general public are aware of.
Them tracking our comings and goings wouldn't be such a problem if our innocent activities weren't illegal in the first place.
Ridiculous. Of course it would; it is unconstitutional, creepy, and morally wrong.
Furthermore, the law could change at any time, and even the constitution can be ignored/amended (mostly ignored).
Ignorance is a choice
No one outside the NSA knows what Snowden knows
Yeah, just him and 4 million other contractors with Top Secret clearance. And their wives, friends, and anyone else they've ever blabbed to. And high ranking military officials, the CIA, any number of Congressmen, State Department officials, etc.
But, yeah, aside from them--and Snowden--all this stuff is totally contained. Our phone calls, emails, and web browsing histories are safe. And no one could possibly use them for anything illegal or unethical.
The cow says "Moo." The dog says "Woof." The Timothy says "Thanks, valued customer. We appreciate your input."
I'm going to throw out a suggestion: Consider becoming the first modern parlimentary system to adopt a constitutional style list of powers explicitely forbidden to government.
It has warts, but is seems to work fine by keeping pleading arguments for censorship dead on arrival. Do it with a supermajority such that a supermajority is required to repeal it.
(-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
And white people just want to make stupid prejudices?
Just claiming "they are a stopped clock" is not proof they are right here just by accident.
Nobody is taking the high moral ground. They're both bad. However, when you have like 10k nukes, you couldn't point *all* of them at DC or NY... Also, how does one ``point'' a missile anywhere? (you mean they have the GPS coordinates of most interesting places already in the address book?). If that's the definition, I'm sure US has nukes `pointing' at some of its own cities... (uh, oh!).
Interesting comment from an Anonymous Coward, and provably wrong. I think you would have to point to genuine transparency on the part of Russia. As to the danger of Russia compared to NSA, to start with, NSA doesn't have nuclear weapons aimed at NATO countries, Russia does, and that's not all. Russia has apparently continued the former Soviet practice of killing dissidents and defectors.
Maybe we should specify "dangerous to whom". Russia has had nuclear weapons aimed at other countries for half a century, and they are no closer to using them than they've ever been. The NSA's actions probably push nuclear countries into more desperation making the nuclear option more likely, not less, so in that regard they are certainly more dangerous. And of course Russia's government is more dangerous to its own citizens than anyone else (dissidents and defectors and the like), but that's true of every government in the world.
So you could say that Russia is a greater danger to some European countries than the NSA, but you would probably not win that argument with Angela Merkel.
But the real point is that the NSA is clearly a greater danger to people in the US than Russia, far greater. They can track and target anyone at any time, and there is evidence they have done so. They are making many countries in the world very angry at the US, Russia included. And don't lets forget that the NSA is not just some division of geeks with keyboards - they can mount a very capable armed response at any time. If someone in charge at the NSA decided to take out a target, no one would even question the orders until well after you're counting the bodies.
"Somebody has to do something. It's just incredibly pathetic it has to be us."
--- Jerry Garcia
Therefore never right.
Won't stop you clamouring, though, will it?
So you prefer to stay in the dark, hoping that the big predator that isthere won't be anymore because the one that warned that it is there could had hidden that are also a few ants around? Or believe the word of that predator that won't harm anyone anymore, after it made sure that noone will warn their next victims in the future? Ignorance is bliss, lets shoot the messenger,
Explicit threats to use nuclear weapons are generally considered a serious matter.
I'm not sure how you think that NSA would push some other country into a nuclear attack. The NSA's primary job is simply to listen and gather intelligence.
Angela Merkel spent most of her life with Soviet troops just across the border in East Germany, and Germany is part of the alliance that Russia threatens with nuclear weapons.
Russia's reaction to the scandal contains elements of "don't care" and glee. Russia is highly active with their own spying, including Germany, the UK, US, and many other nations. They also know that they get spied on. The Russians derive both advantage and amusement from the agitation in the West about this matter. If it hurts diplomatic relations between NATO/EU countries and the US, so much the better for Russia.
The NSA isn't an armed service, nor do they have police powers. Although they pose a great potential danger, as any intelligence service does in a democracy, as a practical matter, not so much.
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
That's easy. If he was actually handing information over to the Russians, there would be 100 'official' leaks calling him a traitor. Right now they only have astroturfers like you who smear him by the 'possibility' of being a traitor.
Trust the NSA. Why would they have so much power if they weren't going to use if for good? It doesn't make sense. Mind broke. QED.
Keep licking government balls you pathetic bitch. Get all the peanut butter off or you'll be kenneled again.
You are pointing to examples of government oppression as an argument of why we shouldn't fear a secret government agency?
That has already been disclosed. Articles in O Globo and the Brazilian press reveal that the NSA spied on the Brazilian state oil company and the information apparently made it to competitors.
Another use for Big Government Data has been to pass the information obtained without warrants or probable cause to the DEA and INS.
Manipulation of political figures? It's certainly been done. When the government has all the data (and the public knows and accepts that) while you have no records or way to disprove the allegations, how could you respond to a threat to expose you as a pedophile?
Actually, while I am no expert, I do believe that the ICBMs are not actually guided by GPS. A little clicking around wikipedia seems to indicate they use inertial guidance, and some have an "Address book" of 8 targets (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGM-118A_Peacekeeper).
So not spot on but pretty close.
"I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
> Them tracking our comings and goings wouldn't be such a problem if our innocent activities
> weren't illegal in the first place.
Yes but, even if they were not, how could you trust that they never would be? The problem with surveillance is NOT that you are being watched and have to trust the watcher. Its that you have to trust him, and his replacement, and his replacement, and your kids will grow up having to do the same.
Were there no innocent activities that were illegal, what assurance would you have that they wouldn't become illegal AFTER the survillance was added?
"I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
...idiotic statements like this will just cause the ship to sink faster.
No, they will just throw him overboard, and the Good Ship Lollypop will continue on its merry way like nothing was ever amiss. Much worse has happened, and the Monarchy still stands, to this day.
“He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
The question was which was more dangerous, and people were choosing badly. Isn't that plain?
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
I agree that the government shouldn't be powerful enough to enforce these kinds of laws. The the reality of modern data collection is that it's so cheap and easy practically any government could do it. Moreover, such surveillance has the potential to increases the strength of the rule of law by making the enforcement of laws more consistent. Stopping it as probably an unrealistic goal. Everyone in a position of authority wants more information.
Oh my God!!! The Russians kill people in other countries? Not quite as bad as the US then who invade other countries and bomb people in friendly countries with drone attacks killing hundreds of thousands of innocent people in the mean time. Russia took the moral high ground a long time back and although no one thinks they are good guys they are certainly better than the US
I assume then that you've never heard of Chechnya, Georgia, or Pussy Riot? Russia is a much better country than the Soviet Union was, so far. But Putin has them working back towards the Soviet model. If you think that Russia is a better friend toward Europe than the US, you are greatly mistaken. There is probably more than one thing you don't know.
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
So reporting your house moves to the police in Germany (which has mandatory ID cards) doesn't worry you
Because seriously Cameron you could not suck up more to the US President if you flew to Washington and give him a blowjob right there in the Oval office live on TV!
Yes every one knows that Sgt Wilson was the really competent one in Walmington-on-Sea home guard - I see Ken Clark in this role Borris gets to be Pvt Pike.(with the firing pin on the tommy gun removed just in case)
For non Uk people "lah di dah" is a reference to a famous uk sitcom http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dad's_Army though using that term is a bit of an own goal a bit like Duncan Smith 's " quiet man" quote
A conspiracy theorist might think that the Gruniad is doing this so they can back away from supporting the new press charter - they have some rather unpleasant people who originally supported the hacking in the "public interest"
What Mr. Edward Snowden did was not treacherous to the country of the United States of America.
No.
Just because the Obama Administration that called Edward Snowden a "traitor" doesn't make it so.
Actually, if I'd have to pick between labels of "patriot" and "traitor" for Snowden and, say, pathological liars and power-greedy crooks not just shitting on their oath to the constitution but continuing with perjury before congress, like Clapper and Holder, it would not be much of an effort.
Why does nobody discuss the question "patriot or traitor" for those who actually are at the levers of power?
It's no different than the current US extreme right now advocates and embraces the same foundational beliefs of the systems their grandfathers fought against in WWII (fascism). I truly believe the GOP and their Randian backers merely waited until almost all of the WWII generation were dead or senile to begin implementing their greatest desires.
I'm having trouble seeing the direct connection between freedom and surveillance.
In post-Soviet Russia, authoritarianism isn't back. It was never permitted to leave.
at traitor nerd. I find that funny for some reason...
Doesn't the NSA have the ability to put a manila envelope on the president's desk, and next thing you know: boom! Hellfire missile blows up you and your family. No police, no judge, no jury...
"Piter, too, is dead."
Comment removed based on user account deletion
NSA doesn't have nuclear weapons aimed at NATO countries
Well, that they've told the public about. Fortunately, all the US nukes are under careful control at all times and the strategic targeting systems probably aren't run off anything involving a computer. And even if they were, the NSA aren't much into computers, don't have any experience writing viruses that penetrate command and control systems, and certainly don't have any access to computer networks that they shouldn't.
Yeah. Thanks for that bit of nightmare fuel.
You are not a brain: http://books.google.com/books?id=2oV61CeDx-YC
Manila envelope on the President's desk? Sure. Blow up the family? From what I understand they try to avoid that, and even pass on opportunities to shoot out of concerns about collateral damage. Blow up you (assuming you are a terrorist fighting with al Qaida) without police, judge, or jury? Sure, since they are in the same status as these other Americans that the Federal government shot dead without arrest, charge, trial, conviction, or sentence. Al Qaida is making war against the US, not picking pockets. The US is making war right back. Anyone that is fighting with al Qaida that doesn't want a visit from Hellfire on earth can surrender.
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
However, when you have like 10k nukes, you couldn't point *all* of them at DC or NY...
Probably not the sub-launched ones, no, you have to put a submarine in position first. You probably could target all of the ICBMs at a single city though. It would waste a lot of warheads because of fratricide, but you would be very sure that it was melted by the time you were finished.
Also, how does one ``point'' a missile anywhere? (you mean they have the GPS coordinates of most interesting places already in the address book?).
Very cleverly, and I imagine they do have an 'address book' of sorts.
They have coordinates, yes. ICBM guidance systems way predate GPS and use inertial guidance based on very accurate gyroscopes, very accurate maps of Earth's gravitational field, and some of the first digital microcomputers which predated even the Apollo guidance computer. The first Minuteman one was 1962, and that was the third generation of US ICBMs. The first US ICBM, the Atlas-A, actually used radio guidance, which had the problem of being able to be jammed from the grond - if you're a James Bond fan, you'll remember this as being a major part of the villain's scheme in the first Bond movie, 1962's Dr No.
ICBM guidance systems basically are one of the secret projects which built the American computing industry as we know it. Far more than civilian NASA spaceflight, the ICBMs had the real military money and the political will to make advanced miniaturised real-time computing happen.
You are not a brain: http://books.google.com/books?id=2oV61CeDx-YC
Because the U.S. isn't as ready to fire nukes at everybody from North Korea to China to Iran as Russia is to fire nukes at France? Just for once, could you come up with some far out winger stuff that can't be thrown back in your face in .002 seconds?
You want to talk actual substance, why don't you go find a list of democratically elected governments overthrown by the USSR/Russia, and see how that compares to the CIA and get back to us.
So you're making France and North Korea out to be equivalents in your faulty example of moral equivalence? Nice. Nice. You have a rare gift for insights like that.
The Soviet Union had a long history of aggression. I don't even have to look anywhere to come up with at least a short list of countries, many of which it either annexed directly, or stole territory from: Poland, Finland, Romania, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Afghanistan. There are other cases of Soviet aggression to be sure. That list you have is also faulty in a number of respects, not the least of which is that there was no democracy in Iran when the US and UK assisted the restoration of the Shaw to the throne of Iran in a counter-coup.
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
He's no idiot. He's just an asshole.
Says our equivalent of the ACLU http://www.yourrights.org.uk/yourrights/right-of-free-expression/defamation/defences-to-a-claim-of-defamation.html
One of the silly/weird/sad things I have noticed in the last couple years, are long/lat coords being referred to as "GPS coordinates." Yet the same people who say that, don't say "ruler feet" or "thermometer degrees" or "Amazon dollars" etc.
As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
I never considered that people used it that way, mostly because usually these days anyone talking about them is talking about them on a GPS.
That said, what I find funny about this is, way back when GPS was new to the public, I remember people referring to lat/long as your "missile address" (or something very close to that that meant basically the same thing).
"I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
I think I just threw up in my mouth.
You just got a free america smoothie!
No-- He's revealing info to the PRESS.
Which BTW is just what Manning tried to do, but NYT did not want to touch it until Wikileaks (the buffer zone they actively endorsed as a partner in their press activities) made it a story... then 'Oh, gosh' they just had to cover it while WL incurred the wrath of the US government.
So he's calling it "advice" but threatening to force via the courts if unheeded. I think most people would call that a "demand" or "threat".
Living in the UK, it's very interesting to hear about things that seem to be deliberately hidden from the public in the mainstream news, and it's a real eye-opener to hear some of the other general info.
One snippet the other day was that 90% of all bank deposits in the UK go to just six banks, whereas in Germany, 70% of all bank deposits to go to two *thousand* banks.
One of the reporters also regularly refers to David Cameron as a "buffoon" (The Keiser Report) which is sadly all too close to the truth, and something no mainstream media outlet would dare do !
Are they any more reliable than mainstream media outlets ? - you wouldn't think you were watching the same day's news ! - that "slow news day" where you hear the most boring inconsequential things they can find, suddenly turns into issues that have massive implications to the UK in one way or another.
Sadly, Virgin don't make it available, but you can get it on Freeview.
There could be people lesking stuff to China and Russia without leaking anything to the public. Whereas Snowden put his life in danger to bring you this info.
It's possible that you are right today. But with so much power seized, tomorrow is looking increasingly grim. Who seriously doubts that these powers will be abused in the future?
the issue is how to get cameron put out the door
Just in time...an article about an NSA employee that tried to blow the whistle on them back in 2007.
I remember someone in Congress saying that Edward Snowden should have gone through the proper channels to blow the whistle. That's what this guy did. You can read the article to see how that worked out for him.
I wonder why Edward Snowden got attention when he blew the whistle, and no one up until that point did? Hard to say...though it may have had something to do with his hot girlfriend.
"Once we've identified and embraced our sickness, we'll have strength...and that's when we get dangerous." - John Waters