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The US Now Faces the Same Dilemma Over Drones As It Did Over Nuclear Weapons

Lasrick writes "Hugh Gusterson examines the crossroads at which the U.S. finds itself on the use of drones, and the long-term consequences of choices made now, by looking at the history of choices the U.S. made in the 1940s regarding nuclear weapons. Thoughtful read. Quoting: 'Having seen what drones are capable of, political leaders can choose to place clear limits, domestically and internationally, on how they can be used. Or, telling the American people that drones will make them safer or that "you can’t stop technology," they can allow free rein to those military inventors, national security bureaucrats and industry entrepreneurs eager to develop drone technology as aggressively as possible. Such people are impatient to press ahead with new unmanned aerial vehicles, including smart drones and mini-drones, to sell both to the US military for use overseas and to law-enforcement bodies within the United States. If drone development continues unchecked, what can we expect? First, as with nuclear weapons, proliferation. At the moment the United States, Britain, and Israel are the only countries to have used weaponized drones. But many countries, including Russia and China, have been watching carefully as Washington has experimented with counterinsurgency by drone, and are considering how they might use this relatively cheap technology for their own purposes. If they decide to use their own drones outside the boundaries of international law against people they brand “terrorists,” the United States will hardly be in a position to condemn them or counsel restraint.'"

211 comments

  1. Not the same... by mlts · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Nuclear weapons take a lot of processing, be it getting the raw materials (only available from a few spots), refining it (very tough), refining it further to be able to be used (even more tough), and getting it working.

    You can buy a "drone" for $100 from woot.com, and unlike nukes where no matter how better technology gets, the stuff needed stays rare, AIs will always improve, and the hardware needed is very common.

    1. Re:Not the same... by Penguinisto · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Well, there is one other small difference:

      As expensive and technically tough as it is to make a nuclear weapon (and its delivery system!), even a small nuke can do a hell of a lot more damage in one go than even 1,000 drones can accomplish. Quake analogy? multiple blasters versus a given BFG (or rather, one very amped-up BFG).

      There is also the fact that drones are still subject to interference, and that there is only so much room in the sky to hold a sufficient number of drones (to do the same damage as a nuke) on a practical level.

      I honestly get that there is a huge potential for problems stemming from the use of drones-as-weapons, but unlike a 'fire-and-forget' ICBM/SRBM/SLBM*? The drone still has to call home, most have to get their instructions and updates from somewhere, a higher degree of accuracy is required, and as a practical matter they need sufficient safeguards built in to avoid having it turn around and attack its owner(s).

      * note that I'm not even counting a missile (or any type) with a MIRV warhead.

      --
      Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
    2. Re:Not the same... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      MAD was probably a lot easier to deal with, only a few power players with a lot to lose, Drones on the other hand...

      I mean realistically this is where missile guidance was going eventually, extreme precision with minimal investment. The threat is now focused on specific individuals rather than cities and nations.

      A bad time to live if you are a name on a list

    3. Re:Not the same... by bob_super · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Maybe, but it's not the point.

      The main difference is that only 2 nukes were ever used to kill people, and then the world decided that doing that again would have to be an absolute last resort.
      Drones, on the other hand, are dreamt as a clean way to "do business", and highly likely to get used more and by everybody.

    4. Re:Not the same... by Sarten-X · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Agreed. The big reason why nukes are bad is that there really is no way to use them without harming civilians. Even the smallest nuclear weapon, suitable for destroying just an enemy base, is still very likely to produce fallout that will spread to civilian populations.

      Drones are not fully-automated killing machines. They aren't just thrown in the sky to exterminate an area. They're still piloted by humans from a distance. Yes, there are still civilian casualties, but that's not because the weapon of choice is remote-controlled.

      --
      You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
    5. Re:Not the same... by khasim · · Score: 2

      About the only way they are the same is the same way every new military technology is the same.

      Should we incorporate it into our military or should we attempt to outlaw its use in war?

      And we don't seem to be in a hurry to stop using drones. That answers that question. And if we aren't going to stop using them then why would any other nation or group?

      So not only is the premise of TFA flawed as you've pointed out, the only "similar" issue has already been answered.

    6. Re:Not the same... by gandhi_2 · · Score: 1

      The Tank, when it was invented, was thought to be such a terrifying weapon that it might end all war for fear of utter devistation. It was even named a tank to disguise why all this metal was being shipped... under the guise of building water tanks.

    7. Re:Not the same... by Obfuscant · · Score: 2

      The main difference is that only 2 nukes were ever used to kill people, and then the world decided that doing that again would have to be an absolute last resort.

      I'm not sure "the world" made that decision. I think it is more like the people who had them decided it was a last resort, and decided that it would be good to try to keep them from people who haven't necessarily come to the same conclusion.

    8. Re:Not the same... by bob_super · · Score: 1

      Once people got past the US-imposed secrecy on the side-effects, most of the people realized that nobody would want to take responsibility for launching another, unless it was their last resort.

      In the case of a few rare extremists, the definition of "last resort" is just a bit different from the survival (or MAD) that we picture. It's not about their physical survival but their standing in $afterlife.

    9. Re:Not the same... by Penguinisto · · Score: 1

      Drones, on the other hand, are dreamt as a clean way to "do business", and highly likely to get used more and by everybody.

      I don't think that many think of it as "clean", so much as they may think of it as "cheap". Instead of strapping a buttload of explosives to one's chest, you strap them to a remote-controlled device, and...

      --
      Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
    10. Re:Not the same... by Zenin · · Score: 0

      Drones are not fully-automated killing machines. They aren't just thrown in the sky to exterminate an area. They're still piloted by humans from a distance.

      Your perception of drone technology is at least a decade out of date. Hobby level R/C planes were doing fully-automated flights at least a decade ago (which means they weren't really R/C of course).

      --
      My /. uid is better then your /. uid
    11. Re:Not the same... by poetmatt · · Score: 3, Insightful

      "even a small nuke can do a hell of a lot more damage in one go than even 1,000 drones can accomplish"

      No.

      Never was, never is, and never will be true, ever. There are a lot of potential variables in how a drone can be weaponized that never guarantee that drones can't be equipped with, say, nuclear weapons for example.

    12. Re:Not the same... by Blaskowicz · · Score: 1

      Autopilots are old as fuck, but that was not so much the question.

    13. Re:Not the same... by Culture20 · · Score: 3, Informative

      But they weren't killing machines. Reaper Drones, while having many autonomous functions, can't pull their own triggers.

    14. Re:Not the same... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Seeing how you can get a camera that does facial recognition for $100, I don't think a fully automated drone that can kill a specific person is a reach.

    15. Re:Not the same... by Oliver+Wendell+Jones · · Score: 2

      yet...

      --
      A computer once beat me at chess, but it was no match for me at kick boxing -- Emo Phillips
    16. Re:Not the same... by khallow · · Score: 1

      Let's step it up a little more. In addition to nuclear-armed and autonomous drones as previous repliers noted, we can have self-reproduction. Throw in a bunch of rad and EMP hardened, self-reproducing, tunneling, autonomous drones into an area and you might not be able to get them out even with repeated application of large nuclear weapons.

      I'm sure at some point, evolution will kick in so that the drones are more interested in reproduction than in messing with the humans, but that could take a long time. In the meantime, you're looking at a scenario where a large bunch of burrowing critters just don't like you and are almost impossible to get rid of. I've seen a few monster flicks like that. It's area denial that could be on the order of millions of years.

    17. Re:Not the same... by smaddox · · Score: 1

      Yeah, luckily the Norse religion died out ages ago, or else we'd have everyone launching nukes, trying to secure their place in Valhalla.

    18. Re:Not the same... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Lol , at first glance I saw "drones" in the headline and I just thought of D.C. politicians, aids, flunkys and sundry suits.
      Well,(I thought) we can bargain down the worlds heaviest duty ammo supply by trading out our Repubmocrats, F*CK, I'm all for it! Send Obama to China and Mail Hillary to Iran as a good faith token, in lieu of having to negotiate with the greasy bastards.

    19. Re:Not the same... by BradMajors · · Score: 1
    20. Re:Not the same... by Zenin · · Score: 1

      The assertion was that the technology for autonomous operation didn't yet exist or at least wasn't widespread.

      And that assertion is utterly false and incredibly naive. Pulling a gun trigger is, from a technological standpoint, no different than snapping a camera's shutter.

      The only thing stopping Reaper Drones from pulling their own triggers is a human choosing not to use that (already existing) feature. If that brings you comfort, you're an idiot.

      --
      My /. uid is better then your /. uid
    21. Re:Not the same... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      no, dickbag, it's not an existing feature. In fact, neither is lasing automatic.

    22. Re:Not the same... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The only thing stopping Reaper Drones from pulling their own triggers is a human choosing not to use that (already existing) feature. If that brings you comfort, you're an idiot.

      Your grasp on the current level of fielded technology (or anything in development) is tenuous at best. Drone is absolutely the wrong word for these vehicles. They are remote piloted vehicles (RPA). They are incapable of doing ANYTHING autonomous. One of the things they do best is crash. It takes constant control by large numbers of people to keep that from happening. Please watch less sci-fi, and refrain from contributing to discussions where your knowledge of the subject can be rounded to zero.

    23. Re:Not the same... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      > luckily the Norse religion died out ages ago

      Jesus promised the end of all wicked people.
      Odin promised the end of all ice giants.
      I don't see many ice giants around...
      http://commonsenseatheism.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/odin-vs.-jesus.jpg

    24. Re:Not the same... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, there is one other small difference:

      As expensive and technically tough as it is to make a nuclear weapon (and its delivery system!), even a small nuke can do a hell of a lot more damage in one go than even 1,000 drones can accomplish. Quake analogy? multiple blasters versus a given BFG (or rather, one very amped-up BFG).

      There is also the fact that drones are still subject to interference, and that there is only so much room in the sky to hold a sufficient number of drones (to do the same damage as a nuke) on a practical level.

      I honestly get that there is a huge potential for problems stemming from the use of drones-as-weapons, but unlike a 'fire-and-forget' ICBM/SRBM/SLBM*? The drone still has to call home, most have to get their instructions and updates from somewhere, a higher degree of accuracy is required, and as a practical matter they need sufficient safeguards built in to avoid having it turn around and attack its owner(s).

      * note that I'm not even counting a missile (or any type) with a MIRV warhead.

      So, I take it you don't subscribe to death by 1,000 cuts...at all.

      If left unchecked as the next chapter of the Drone Industrial Complex (a.k.a. Rise of the Machines, with all nefarious consequences intended with that remark), drones will be responsible for more deaths than the history of nuclear warfare.

      Sounds fucking insane doesn't it? Yeah, so does half the weaponized arsenal already being bid on.

      Oh, and the drone deaths? Don't worry. You'll simply be desensitized to it in much the same way you hear about death on the freeway or murder in the streets daily. And you won't give a shit in the exact same way.

    25. Re:Not the same... by lxs · · Score: 1

      Are you saying that in the Afterlife drones are transformed into dildos to be shared among 72 virgins?
      You just blew my mind.

    26. Re:Not the same... by Sarten-X · · Score: 1

      Pulling a gun trigger is, from a technological standpoint, no different than snapping a camera's shutter.

      Certainly true from a technological standpoint, but how many AI-driven artistic photographers are out there? Sure, there's plenty of automatic cameras, snapping away every few seconds for surveillance, but there's no decision-making process there.

      We could build a robot to drive down the street firing a flamethrower in every direction, but we don't. We could build random-walking submarine mine-layers, but we don't. Drones are no different. We could wire up a glider to shoot anything that moves under it, but we don't. That's a waste of ammunition and not particularly likely to actually accomplish anything productive. Instead, the drones are used as extra air coverage without putting pilots at risk. They are capable of fully-autonomous takeoff and landing, where the latency to the pilot's controls could cause a crash, but during regular flight operations they are simply remote-controlled.

      --
      You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
    27. Re:Not the same... by gorehog · · Score: 1

      The entire analogy is faulty. Drones are only delivery vehicles. A drone is entirely capable of delivering a nuclear device or finding a lost hiker on a mountain. The problem of drones is one of the people deploying them. They're not inherently dangerous in the same way as a nuclear weapon.

    28. Re:Not the same... by artor3 · · Score: 0

      Yeah, and cars could theoretically be modified to carry nukes as well. Does that mean that cars are as dangerous as nuclear weapons? Of course not. Your logic is beyond flawed, bordering on non-sensical.

    29. Re:Not the same... by poetmatt · · Score: 1

      There's a difference, starting with your flawed analogy. People make tanks for warfare, but they don't make military drones for peace. So that's about as off topic as it gets.

      Beyond that, I wouldn't say for even a second that a few drones couldn't accomplish what a small nuke can, considering the weaponry they put on them. It's not like they give it a pea shooter. I guess it depends on how subjective you are, but a nuke is single use. Drones are not.

    30. Re:Not the same... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      you are being a dumbass. i do make drones in my back yard. no one makes nukes in their back yard. you are wrong and it is forever on the internet. you should have posted as anonymous coward.

    31. Re:Not the same... by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Sure, there's plenty of automatic cameras, snapping away every few seconds for surveillance, but there's no decision-making process there.

      That is false not only at first brush, but also when considered in depth. Intelligent cameras have been a thing for years now. The cameras themselves are gaining the ability to determine when there's something worth shooting, with algorithms beyond simple motion detection.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    32. Re:Not the same... by artor3 · · Score: 0

      People make drones for peace. If you have to qualify it with "military" drones, then you're just being tautological. And why does it even matter if they're made for peace? The question is "can a small nuke do more damage than a thousand drones?"

      You also don't seem to understand what nuclear weapons do, if you think a few drones could accomplish the same thing. Take a look at this, for instance. Play around with the smallest nukes in their database. It still annihilates multiple city blocks.

      For a real world example, consider that the US drones in Pakistan have killed somewhere in the neighborhood of 3000 people. That's many drones operating over several years. Little Boy killed over a hundred thousand people in Hiroshima, not including radiation deaths over the following years. And Little Boy was tiny compared to the nukes in operation today.

    33. Re:Not the same... by grumpyman · · Score: 1

      Think killing 1 guy, but 1 very important guy.

    34. Re:Not the same... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Unlikely, the norse would probably consider it a cowards weapon(because you don't have to get close and personal with your foe), == not honorable == no Valhalla.
      OTOH Christianity have plenty of examples throughout history where killing as many "infidels" as possible was the only concern(the same thing can be said for the other Abrahamitic religions), and sadly Christianity has yet to die out.

    35. Re:Not the same... by Sarten-X · · Score: 1

      ...so somehow the AI knows what it's looking at before it triggers the camera?

      The "smart" cameras we use today record constantly, then just discard anything that doesn't meet certain criteria. They do not have any particular intent for what they photograph, nor any understanding of the larger goal. A manufacturing line's barcode scanner has no interest in whether the product is good or not. That's still the job of the humans in charge.

      --
      You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
    36. Re:Not the same... by khallow · · Score: 2

      OTOH Christianity have plenty of examples throughout history where killing as many "infidels" as possible was the only concern

      No such examples exist in living memory. There have been a few groups that were nominally Christian which did a bunch of killing (for example, the breakup of Yugoslavia had such). But such murders were based on nationalist rationalizations rather than religion ones.

      In comparison with other major religions, it fares pretty well, being IMHO a bit more violent than Buddhism and less than Hinduism. And most religions are less violent than Marxism and Fascism, both which are nominally atheist.

      It's no longer 1100 AD. Christianity is no longer the collection of violent sects it once was.

    37. Re:Not the same... by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      The "smart" cameras we use today record constantly, then just discard anything that doesn't meet certain criteria.

      I've seen a camera that can detect faces; it puts a box around them on the viewfinder which moves with the subject. It's a bit creepy, actually. So it'd be simple to make it fire the shutter when a recognizable human face is in view.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    38. Re:Not the same... by Archtech · · Score: 1

      We could build a robot to drive down the street firing a flamethrower in every direction, but we don't. We could build random-walking submarine mine-layers, but we don't.

      I think you will find the operative word in those sentences is "we". WE don't do those things, but they are technically feasible. Maybe someone else would be only too happy to do them.

      Please don't rule out the possibility that there may be even more ruthlessly violent people in the world than the US armed forces and their paramilitary assistants.

      --
      I am sure that there are many other solipsists out there.
    39. Re:Not the same... by Hognoxious · · Score: 2

      Your argument is that A is greater than B because you could add B to A.

      It makes as much sense as claiming you can make a pot roast in refrigerator because you could glue an oven to it.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    40. Re:Not the same... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You must have a VERY short memory. The NAZI holocaust during WW2 is within living memory and was definitively inspired in Christianity in the sense that served as ideological basis to purge the Jews. Even putting Hitler aside (BTW, there is no reason to to such thing), the actual killing was committed by regular German soldiers following orders and there is no doubt most of them were Catholic.

      So here you go, the worst war crime within living history was committed by Christians explicitly using a religion motivation as rationale and that throws your argument down the drain. The west fares better because we are less desperate in economical terms than other regions of the world, and with that relative prosperity we have learned more or less to coexist with each other DESPITE of religion.

      There is nothing intrinsically better in Christianity compared to others, is the same bloodthirsty ideals of the bronze age and a lot of pick an choosing what to believe in a book full of contradictions. It still considers people following other religions enemies to be exterminated in the final battle between good and evil, and then suffer eternal torment for their heathen ways. And is still a religion that rewards belief instead of deeds, so some of their followers don't feel themselves bound to the rules of society. Just take a look at the profile of known serial killers and you will realize that most of them where religious fanatics.

    41. Re:Not the same... by Type44Q · · Score: 1

      Drones are not fully-automated killing machines.

      And exactly how long do you expect that to last?

    42. Re:Not the same... by khallow · · Score: 1

      The NAZI holocaust during WW2 is within living memory and was definitively inspired in Christianity in the sense that served as ideological basis to purge the Jews.

      Nazism simply wasn't Christian in nature. They didn't adhere to Christian beliefs or use Christian symbols. For example, the swastika, the symbol of the Nazi party, comes from Indian religious symbols. The "Aryan race" was originally a culture of ancient India (who conquered large parts of India and instituted Hinduism), but that phrase was appropriated by Hitler to describe what he thought was the best of men. He also borrowed heavily from Germanic mythology and symbols. But most telling is that there simply wasn't a state religion (unless you consider Nazism itself to be the state religion). The state and party was nominally atheist.

      I see also that Wikipedia claims that Hitler was planning to eventually shutdown the various Christian sects in Germany after the war, but in the meantime went through the motions.

      For example, Hitler and other higher leaders were members of the Catholic Church for "tactical reasons" according to a diary entry of Goebbels. And from a memoir by Albert Speer:

      "Once I have settled my other problem," [Hitler] occasionally declared, "I'll have my reckoning with the church. I'll have it reeling on the ropes" But Bormann did not want this reckoning postponed [...] he would take out a document from his pocket and begin reading passages from a defiant sermon or pastoral letter. Frequently Hitler would become so worked up... and vowed to punish the offending clergyman eventually... That he could not immediately retaliate raised him to a white heat...

      There is nothing intrinsically better in Christianity compared to others, is the same bloodthirsty ideals of the bronze age and a lot of pick an choosing what to believe in a book full of contradictions.

      No religion has survived intact from the bronze age. And Christianity comes from a later time as do most other major religions.

    43. Re:Not the same... by lsatenstein · · Score: 1

      Well, there is one other small difference:

      As expensive and technically tough as it is to make a nuclear weapon (and its delivery system!), even a small nuke can do a hell of a lot more damage in one go than even 1,000 drones can accomplish. Quake analogy? multiple blasters versus a given BFG (or rather, one very amped-up BFG).

      There is also the fact that drones are still subject to interference, and that there is only so much room in the sky to hold a sufficient number of drones (to do the same damage as a nuke) on a practical level.

      I honestly get that there is a huge potential for problems stemming from the use of drones-as-weapons, but unlike a 'fire-and-forget' ICBM/SRBM/SLBM*? The drone still has to call home, most have to get their instructions and updates from somewhere, a higher degree of accuracy is required, and as a practical matter they need sufficient safeguards built in to avoid having it turn around and attack its owner(s).

      * note that I'm not even counting a missile (or any type) with a MIRV warhead.

      Your conjecture is that the enemy would use nukes, and that they would wipe out a radius of 25miles(or kms). Would that stop a country the size of the USA, Russia, or China, if it happened to them, from retaliation? In geographical territories where it is a vs b, and a wins, what are they going to do with devistated b? Old wars were based on assets of the conquored land, not on idiologies.

      Suppose it happened. My belief is that the first counterattacks would be all the religious shrines, mosques, temples and whatever, since it is my belief that a nuke attack is motivated by religious extremists. Anyway, packaging a miniature nuclear bomb would pose size and weight problems.

      --
      Leslie Satenstein Montreal Quebec Canada
    44. Re:Not the same... by Jerome+from+Layton · · Score: 1

      Agreed. Not all technology is equal. Nuclear weapons are "special" for a multiplicity of reasons as the Iranian experience is showing us. They've been working at it for years, but they're not "there" yet and there is a lot of visible trappings that are eating away at their GNP. On the other hand, drones can be cheap and simple or huge and complex or anything in between. Other people have compared them to the flint lock which lead to the individual weapons which also have that huge variation of models ranging from the rail car guns to tiny pocket pistols. Expect these things to multiply like rabbits.

    45. Re:Not the same... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Agreed. The big reason why nukes are bad is that there really is no way to use them without harming civilians. Even the smallest nuclear weapon, suitable for destroying just an enemy base, is still very likely to produce fallout that will spread to civilian populations.

      Drones are not fully-automated killing machines. They aren't just thrown in the sky to exterminate an area. They're still piloted by humans from a distance. Yes, there are still civilian casualties, but that's not because the weapon of choice is remote-controlled.

      They aren't just thrown in the sky to exterminate an area
      yet

  2. This is crap by El+Puerco+Loco · · Score: 2, Insightful

    They're no different than any other airplanes. If other countries decide to use them outside their borders, and threaten U.S. interests, the U.S. can "counsel restraint" in it's usual manner: with bombs.

    1. Re:This is crap by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      They're no different than any other airplanes.

      Sure they're different -- they're cheaper. And smaller.

      People that work in the nuclear field -- heck, probably most physics PhD students -- have the knowledge to put together a nuclear weapon, but getting the resources and actually doing it is a massive undertaking, so this can be restricted.

      Weaponizing a remote control helicopter is insanely cheap and simple in comparison.

    2. Re:This is crap by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Amen, the only thing that will make them stop and think about it will be when something small flutters into the capitol building and releases anthrax.

    3. Re:This is crap by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ever seen the payload of a predator? And how many warheads are in a nuke missile, independently maneuverable to a target. Now get the drift, weight, many drones, which one will your drone take out, is it the right one?, same with MAD. But now prove who launched the drone. Such fun...So allow drones to kill? You allow drones to weaponize, Or is some one going to step up and say "NO". Enough of your bull.....

    4. Re:This is crap by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Anthrax isn't very deadly..

    5. Re:This is crap by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Exactly, many of the people saying "just like a plane" here really don't get it. They aren't "just like a plane". They are far more "just like a model plane".

      A couple hundred bucks and you've already got a workable drone. They are affordable by anyone. Don't need airfields. You cannot defend against them at the borders because they will either:

      1). Trivially penetrate border defenses, or;
      2). Be launched inside the borders. From anywhere.

      This is like comparing early mainframe computers with the PC, and now the smartphone. You could not "control proliferation" of small computers (assuming you wanted to) by controlling the air conditioning suppliers. The small computers don't need air conditioning. They change the game.

      Look, as a means of direct destruction in terrorist hands I don't think drones will prove terribly common or effective. The really small ones don't have a lot of lifting power. However as a means of surveillance, and possibly to direct heavier weapons, oh hell yeah. Drones change that equation completely.

      And the old V1, or the new Predator drones? They still aren't all that big.

    6. Re:This is crap by fisted · · Score: 1

      They're no different than any other airplanes. If other countries decide to use them outside their borders, and threaten U.S. interests, the U.S. can "counsel restraint" in it's usual manner: with drones.

      FTFY

    7. Re:This is crap by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Drones are probably more analogous to the transition from the rifle to the assault rifle - you take a weapon system that required a fair amount of training to use effectively and replace it with something that with a little familiarizing, anyone can operate in a moderately threatening manner - see every 2-bit warlord in Africa or guerrilla in Latin America. There will arise a cheap drone somewhere to be this era's AK-47.

  3. LMAO, must not be paying attention by hsmith · · Score: 4, Insightful

    the United States will hardly be in a position to condemn them or counsel restraint

    Like the United States gives a crap. The US will protest if any other country does it, as we are spoiled children who think we can do as we please.

    1. Re:LMAO, must not be paying attention by AmiMoJo · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It's now basically open season on the US. Don't complain when Pakistani drones blow up a wedding trying to murder some suspected terrorists.

      Seriously, the US has managed to make an American's life worthless in the eyes of much of the world because that's how the US treats everyone else.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    2. Re:LMAO, must not be paying attention by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Don't complain when Pakistani drones blow up a wedding trying to murder some suspected terrorists.

      It'd be interesting to see the reaction to something like that happening. I mean, it's considered acceptable for the US (by the US politicians) to do that in Pakistan, so I am interested to see what happens when a reverse event happens.

      I am sure US politicians will understand the need to combat terrorism and suffer collateral damage as a result.

    3. Re:LMAO, must not be paying attention by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is stupid.
      Why shouldn't I complain when you try to kill me, regardless of whether or not I've tried to kill you.
      I don't care about your life. I care about my life.
      If me being alive requires that I nuke the shit out of some people who live out in the desert then that's what I'll do.

    4. Re:LMAO, must not be paying attention by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      It purely depends what is most profitable to the military complex profiteers.

      Captcha: charming

    5. Re:LMAO, must not be paying attention by Ralph+Wiggam · · Score: 0

      . I mean, it's considered acceptable for the US (by the US politicians) to do that in Pakistan

      It's considered acceptable by the Pakistani government. The only US military action in Pakistan that wasn't approved by the Pakistani military was the raid against Bin Laden.

      Pakistani politicians like to condemn the US after an operation goes badly, but they are given access to the same intelligence that we have, and if they green light the mission.

    6. Re:LMAO, must not be paying attention by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's now basically open season on the US. Don't complain when Pakistani drones blow up a wedding trying to murder some suspected terrorists.

      And then you get a decade of pain and misery inflicted on entire regions, just like happened last time the US was attacked in a meaningful way.

      It's fun to threaten vengeance against the top dog, but it seldom goes well when he's 10 times the size of the rest of the pack.

    7. Re:LMAO, must not be paying attention by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Ao did Cuba agree to be overthrown in the failed "bay of pigs" invasion as well? There are numerous examples of the US doing "bad things" to other nations on their own soil which they certainly wouldn't tolerate on US soil.

    8. Re:LMAO, must not be paying attention by myowntrueself · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The people of the USA are remarkably squeamish about their own people going to other countries and getting killed while fighting a war, possibly more squeamish than most other nations.

      Therefore it is massively in the interests of the government of the USA to be able to wage war in other countries without risking the lives of their service men and women.

      The problem then becomes, for the people on who war is being waged, how to deal with this. Possibly the best solution is to take the killing to the American people, in their homeland.

      Interestingly the American people, so cowardly that they can only use remote controlled weapons to wage war, then call the men and women who give their lives to fight, who go out knowing they will die, the suicide bombers, cowards.

      WTF?

      --
      In the free world the media isn't government run; the government is media run.
    9. Re:LMAO, must not be paying attention by chihowa · · Score: 1

      I am against the exploitative practices of the US government overseas and am trying to effect meaningful policy change here to put a stop to those practices. This is because I, unlike you, do not see civilians lives as forfeit due to irresponsible actions carried out by a government.

      Despite how you imagine the typical American thinks, the wars are not popular here in the US. If people like you start advocating for the slaughter of more civilians because of the actions of an unleashed US government (and taking actions to achieve that), you will find the world become a much uglier place than it currently is. An eye for an eye only leaves the world blind. Your thirst for blood and vengeance doesn't make the world a better place.

      --
      If you want a vision of the future, imagine a youtube comments section scrolling - forever.
  4. some confused with the still missing monkey hymens by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    no drone us no bone us

    no bomb us more mom us

    starving diaper addicts the last of our innocents?

    free the innocent stem cells

    new clear options are available

  5. Absurd by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    To compare Nuclear weapons to drones is possibly the most intellectually dishonest thing I've ever heard.

  6. Precedent by Anna+Merikin · · Score: 1

    Dropping the atomic bomb on civilian populations in 1945 didn't stop the USA from leading the world toward outlawing "nuclear proliferation" decades later; why should this issue be handled differently?

    1. Re:Precedent by CanHasDIY · · Score: 1

      Dropping the atomic bomb on civilian populations in 1945 didn't stop the USA from leading the world toward outlawing "nuclear proliferation" decades later; why should this issue be handled differently?

      Lead time - how long was the timespan between developing the nuke and firing up all those non-proliferation treaties? A couple decades?

      This time, we have the chance to nip a tyrannical tool in the bud* before it becomes an issue.

      * My preferred method? Open-source everything, so that any jackass with $50 and some free time can build themselves an automated, airborne weapons platform. We'll level the playing field manually, with ordnance :)

      --
      An enigma, wrapped in a riddle, shrouded in bacon and cheese
    2. Re:Precedent by confused+one · · Score: 1

      It might be nice to avoid the buildup of tens of thousands of weaponized drones on multiple "sides" before making the decision that "drones are bad".

    3. Re:Precedent by myowntrueself · · Score: 1

      Dropping the atomic bomb on civilian populations in 1945 didn't stop the USA from leading the world toward outlawing "nuclear proliferation" decades later; why should this issue be handled differently?

      Bertrand Russel, later a famous antinuclear protester and leading member of CND, advocated a pre-emptive nuclear strike against the Soviet Union. It was only when the SU developed their own nukes that Russel changed his stance on this; to him it was just a simple matter of game theory.

      --
      In the free world the media isn't government run; the government is media run.
    4. Re:Precedent by Anna+Merikin · · Score: 2

      Thank you. It's not game theory to me so much as history. As Twain may have said, "History doesn't repeat itself, but it rhymes."

      But if game theory worked for Russell, who am I to argue?

    5. Re:Precedent by Archtech · · Score: 1

      Bertrand Russel, later a famous antinuclear protester and leading member of CND, advocated a pre-emptive nuclear strike against the Soviet Union. It was only when the SU developed their own nukes that Russel changed his stance on this; to him it was just a simple matter of game theory.

      That is poisonous rubbish, and a horrible libel on a great (and peaceful) man. You are thinking of John von Neumann. Russell had nothing to do with game theory, and abhorred all violence: see his Wikipedia entry which makes it crystal clear that Russell was an active and courageous pacifist as early as 1916.

      "During the First World War, Russell was one of the very few people to engage in active pacifist activities, and in 1916, he was dismissed from Trinity College following his conviction under the Defence of the Realm Act.

      "He was charged a fine of £100, which he refused to pay, hoping that he would be sent to prison. However, his books were sold at auction to raise the money. The books were bought by friends; he later treasured his copy of the King James Bible that was stamped "Confiscated by Cambridge Police."

      "A later conviction for publicly lecturing against inviting the US to enter the war on Britain's side resulted in six months' imprisonment in Brixton prison (see Bertrand Russell's views on society) in 1918".

      --
      I am sure that there are many other solipsists out there.
    6. Re:Precedent by myowntrueself · · Score: 1

      I saw a tv interview with Russel where they asked him about this and played him BBC recordings of what he said earlier. He made excuses about game theory.

      --
      In the free world the media isn't government run; the government is media run.
    7. Re:Precedent by Archtech · · Score: 1

      Thanks for your polite persistence in bringing these unpleasant facts home to me. I apologize for my intemperate language. As an admirer of Russell, I had no idea that he could ever have made such a horrible suggestion. Like so many other pure thinkers, it seems he had little understanding of human motivation and political realities. (however, I am still sure the idea of a preemptive strike based on game theory originated with von Neumann).

      I found what seems a good and balanced summary here: http://digitalcommons.mcmaster.ca/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1015&context=russelljournal

      Russell is quoted as saying he had supported appeasement in the 1930s but now (in the 1950s) could see that he had been completely wrong in the 1930s. But that did not seem to have suggested to him that he might be completely wrong again in the 1950s! It seems the main thing Russell and Einstein agreed about was that the USSR could not be left to its own devices - which is what happened, and led fairly soon to its downfall.

      Next time I'll do my fact-checking first.

      --
      I am sure that there are many other solipsists out there.
  7. Drones for Defense by mveloso · · Score: 1

    Drones will be a great defensive tool. For a few million dollars you could (or will be able to ) deploy a large swarm of drones that can disable or destroy naval targets costing orders of magnitude more than your drone force. That's great news for the countries that have no real need for a navy.

    For offense, well, they make great flying bombs. Not everyone needs a predator drone that can be flown over and over. Sometimes all you need a a swarm of delivery agents that can come at a target from multiple directions...in waves, autonomously.

    There's nothing the US can really do about it, so it's unclear what the point of this article is, except to trade drone use case ideas.

    1. Re:Drones for Defense by El+Puerco+Loco · · Score: 2

      flying bombs are called cruise missiles, they've been around for ages and they aren't cheap. naval targets tend to be pretty well defended against these sort of things.

    2. Re:Drones for Defense by NicBenjamin · · Score: 1

      Depends how close the ships get. If it's an amphibious invasion (ie: some of them actually have to land onshore) it would be trivial for a country the size of Iran to hire a couple thousand drone jockeys, and create a bunch of drones with enough of a payload to seriously inconvenience a landing craft, and then just throw drones at said landing craft 24/7. Eventually somebody's defense get saturated and the Navy has a problem. Their anti-aircraft guns run out of ammo, their electronic warfare officer faints from lack of sleep, whatever. They're screwed. The Navy would have to nail the drone base, or hack the drones command/control links or be seriously inconvenienced.

      Granted that scenario assumes the USAF didn't flatten the drone base, the NSA can't hack their central servers and shut the whole drone effort down, etc., but anytime the weapons mix changes the guys who owned the fanciest weapons have a problem.

    3. Re:Drones for Defense by CrimsonAvenger · · Score: 1

      For a few million dollars you could (or will be able to ) deploy a large swarm of drones that can disable or destroy naval targets costing orders of magnitude more than your drone force.

      People who don't know any better have been saying this (for the equivalent weapons of the period) for the past century.

      Hasn't worked out that way yet, and it's unlikely that it'll work out that way in the future.

      --

      "I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
    4. Re:Drones for Defense by WaffleMonster · · Score: 1

      For offense, well, they make great flying bombs. Not everyone needs a predator drone that can be flown over and over. Sometimes all you need a a swarm of delivery agents that can come at a target from multiple directions...in waves, autonomously.

      Their called cruise missiles.

    5. Re:Drones for Defense by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      flying bombs are called cruise missiles, they've been around for ages and they aren't cheap.

      If you need a cruise missile that can fly through a meter square window after flying 1,500 miles, sure, they aren't cheap. But the only thing stopping a hobbyist from turning a model rocket into a cruise missile besides being sensible enough to want to avoid visits from the men in black is that the GPS units refuse to play that game.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    6. Re:Drones for Defense by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They're called cruise missiles.

      Fuck That Fuck You.

    7. Re:Drones for Defense by kanweg · · Score: 1

      I never understood that.

      I once talked to the captain of a boat (that sailed from the Mediterranean to the Caribbean islands) that in the straight of Gibraltar his GPS was inaccurate. He said that it was because of the satellites. But the GPS satellites don't know where you are; you're just receiving signals from them. AFAIK for military purposes the satellites introduce inaccuracies in the timing signals they broadcast, and only military GPS knows how to correct for those. But how is it possible to have a particular region on earth have inaccurate positioning.

      Do you know how that works?

      Bert
      BTW, thanks Bill Clinton for removing (most?) of the inaccuracy and making GPS navigation in cars possible.

    8. Re: Drones for Defense by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Afaik SA is no longer being used. milspec gos receivers have access to more data but for our purposes in this conversation what is relevant is their willingness to output high-speed positioning data.

      No idea how GPS might be especially inaccurate in the straits of Gibraltar. barring unusual curvature of space-time I don't know what would slow down or speed up the radio signals or the GPS clock :) I am not an expert on the locale or on GPS... if the terrain prevents good reception then you might have to settle for a less accurate fix due to receiving clear signals from less satellites.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  8. Or Bazookas. Or Flamethrowers. Or Grenades... by retroworks · · Score: 2

    Ok well. Comparing a drone to a nuclear bomb, because drones are in the news, is like comparing a car accident to a train wreck. Land mines are probably the most controversial small-kill technology. The main difference is that drones are an incredibly expensive and complex way to kill a dozen people, as compared to, say, goons with machetes.

    --
    Gently reply
  9. Bad article by jklovanc · · Score: 2

    Drones are similar to nuclear bombs in the same way spring showers are similar to class 5 hurricanes.

    One thing they miss it that proliferation has already happened. While most countries have not used drones, many, if not most, advanced militarizes have them or are developing them.

    1. Re:Bad article by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      many, if not most, advanced militarizes have them or are developing them.

      Militaries don't develop weapons, companies do. Some are prohibited or don't want to sell to people in other countries, but still, the power is in the manufacturers.

    2. Re:Bad article by jklovanc · · Score: 1

      Companies don't use the weapons. Militaries ask companies to build weapons to meet certain specifications and then buy the weapons. The power is with the purchaser in this case.

  10. There is no real dilemma by nurb432 · · Score: 1

    If they are an enemy, you use all the tools you have available to eradicate them.

    --
    ---- Booth was a patriot ----
    1. Re:There is no real dilemma by VortexCortex · · Score: 2

      The problem is that the people of all the worlds countries are not enemies of each other. It's strange then that the governments would make each other enemies. Whom are they fighting? Enemies? Or the perception that they are not needed anywhere but at home, and even then, not so much.

    2. Re:There is no real dilemma by nurb432 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      You are mistaken, they are ALL our enemy. Every last one of them. And 80% of the citizens here are as well, if you want to be honest about it.

      --
      ---- Booth was a patriot ----
    3. Re:There is no real dilemma by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      All people, and in fact all life-forms, are intrinstically competitors by default.
      I, for example, would benefit economically from your death.

    4. Re:There is no real dilemma by Artifakt · · Score: 1

      If they are an enemy, you use all the tools you have available to eradicate them.

      You use the tools you need to win. If you set the goal in war as eradication instead of victory, you have just said the enemy cannot even be allowed to surrender, the war ends only in genocide, and it becomes the most logical thing for the enemy who has heard this from you to do, to fight to the very last possible combatant.

           

      --
      Who is John Cabal?
    5. Re:There is no real dilemma by dk20 · · Score: 2

      Pass a new law that the current leaders are the first ones on the front line and all wars will end.
      After all, if they "voted" to go to war why should they be exempt in dying for the cause they apparently believe in?
      Presidents/prime ministers/kings are all replaceable as well.

    6. Re:There is no real dilemma by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      a better law would be, when somebody is elected to a federal position of authority, their entire family, except for spouse, is drafted into the infantry and cannot receive a commission as an officer under any circumstances (any officers with rank above O3, or O3's who have held that rank for at least 2 years, would be allowed to keep it; any not meeting those requirements would be forced to resign their commssion and serve as an enlisted soldier until either the end of the conflict or the relative resigns/term ends/etc). sending the leaders themselves into combat would be pretty stupid, since it'd ensure near-constant elections, and an extremely easy way for any random idiot to get rid of a leader with whom he disagrees ("friendly fire" isnt actually very friendly).

    7. Re:There is no real dilemma by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If they are an enemy, you use all the tools you have available to eradicate them.

      Which is why nerve gas and germ warfare are 100% legal and endorsed.

    8. Re:There is no real dilemma by nurb432 · · Score: 1

      you have just said the enemy cannot even be allowed to surrender, the war ends only in genocide

      Yes, that is what i'm saying.

      --
      ---- Booth was a patriot ----
    9. Re:There is no real dilemma by Archtech · · Score: 1

      If they are an enemy, you use all the tools you have available to eradicate them.

      And if you think they might be an enemy, do the same to be on the safe side. After all, their surviving relatives and friends can't harm you so where's the downside?

      --
      I am sure that there are many other solipsists out there.
    10. Re:There is no real dilemma by u38cg · · Score: 1

      That was the norm up until logistical complexity and evolution of tactics made it infeasible to have commanders leading from the front. But even Churchill commanded a battalion in WWI.

      --
      [FUCK BETA]
    11. Re:There is no real dilemma by nurb432 · · Score: 1

      The reality is those are 'banned' mainly due to the risk of coming back and biting your own people. And remember if you don't belong to the 'world community', screw their rules.

      --
      ---- Booth was a patriot ----
  11. may ways they are not the same by globaljustin · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I've had enough of the 'ZOMG drones!!!11!!' from all corners...it's facile and ignorant...

    Drones are just a different delivery system for the same armament...usually a hellfire missile. Nothing a 'drone' does can't be done by a piloted craft...or a cruise missile...or a piloted craft converted to a drone

    Nuclear weapons **could be launched from a drone**

    See how this is comparing apples and baseballs?

    Let's all agree to stop the madness! 'drones' are remote-piloted versions of the human piloted vehicles....it's the **armaments** and **who we are shooting at and why** that matter...not the delivery system of the armament!!!

    --
    Thank you Dave Raggett
    1. Re:may ways they are not the same by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I disagree. With nukes you will pretty much know who sent it. With drones, you could have a strike in your country and not know who sent the drone, it may even take off within your own country. Now feel free to ignore this, but imagine someone like Harry Reid being hit by a hellfire from one of those that is untraceable.

      Its only a matter of time before others use them against the US, and while it is expensive/difficult to do so with a nuke, it is entirely possible with a drone. The best part is once it is done, they can just blame the US government for targeting its own citizens and no one will believe their denial.

      Its the fact that you can do it without causing every other country to instantly turn on you and also frame someone else for it that is the problem.

    2. Re:may ways they are not the same by NicBenjamin · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I agree, but there's a wrinkle you didn't mention.

      The one thing you can do with drones you can't do with an F-16 is have the damn thing film a target for hours. Since an F-16 has a human pilot, who can't sit in that tiny-little cockpit for 12 hours straight, it's missions have to be kept short. Moreover since F-16 pilots are very valuable assets the plane has to be designed so that the pilot has a very good chance of getting home. That means it has to be able to run away real fast, it needs backup systems if something goes wrong, it needs all kinds of weapons to deal with threats, etc. There's a reason new F-16s cost $40-50 million and the latest generation combat aircraft is well past $100 million. You don't want those things hanging around a warzone shooting video 24/7 for a week. They might notice, and start taking pot-shots, and eventually they'll figure out how to bring it down.

      Which means if you're fighting with conventional aircraft you have real motive to blow everything to smithereens. It wastes lots of your money (ammo ain't free), but it saves even more expensive planes and pilots.

      OTOH a $10 million drone is expendable. It can hang out filming some suspected enemy's house all day. Literally. They have an endurance in the 30-hour range. Your drone jockeys do 80-hour shifts drinking Dew and eating Cheeto's. If you trade off drones you can easily have a house under observation for weeks. During that time you can gather a lot of data on whose in the House, when they're in the House (does the little kid always leave to play soccer in the mid-afternoon, or does he sometimes stay home?), etc. You burn a lot of AvGas, but in the mean-time you gain a lot of info. Info that lets you do things like wait until said little kid is out of the house to level it.

      Which is why the hated drone war has only produced a few thousand casualties, less then a thousand a year, whereas a non-drone campaign would produce 10,000 a year.

    3. Re:may ways they are not the same by Shakrai · · Score: 2

      Now feel free to ignore this, but imagine someone like Harry Reid being hit by a hellfire from one of those that is untraceable.

      Where do we send the thank you card? ;)

      Its only a matter of time before others use them against the US

      Not likely. Any reasonably developed country with a decent intelligence apparatus would be able to trace the drone back to its source. Conventional rules of conduct still apply when the attack isn't anonymous.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    4. Re:may ways they are not the same by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      Since an F-16 has a human pilot, who can't sit in that tiny-little cockpit for 12 hours straight...

      Not disagreeing with your overall premise, as it is correct, but your details are quite a bit off.

      As an actual F-16 pilot, who has had the unpleasant experience of sitting in that tiny-little cockpit for anywhere from 8 to 16 hours on numerous occasions, I can vouch that this is not only possible, but we do it on a routine basis in-theater (and pond-crossings, i.e. crossing oceans).

      Want to know what I was doing? Maintaining constant surveillance on target locations in the skies of Iraq. Almost 200 "combat" hours, and not a single munition dropped. My $36 million dollar multi-role fighter was being used as an ISR platform. It requires a lot of trips to the Tanker.

      Your estimate on RPA loiter times is also a bit optomistic. Preds and Reapers can do 8-10 hours or so. And 80 hour pilot/sensor operator shifts? Try 12 max, typically less.

      Your casualty count is based on current use of precision guided munitions (from all platforms) rather than unguided bombs/rockets, and has little-to-nothing to do with the "drone-war".

    5. Re:may ways they are not the same by Quila · · Score: 1

      Now feel free to ignore this, but imagine someone like Harry Reid being hit by a hellfire

      Don't tease.

      Its only a matter of time before others use them against the US, and while it is expensive/difficult to do so with a nuke, it is entirely possible with a drone.

      And entirely possible with a conventional aircraft.

    6. Re:may ways they are not the same by torsmo · · Score: 1

      Man, I can feel the discomfort just thinking about sitting in a small enclosed space with almost no room for movement. Over 8 hrs in there? Fuck that, I'd eject much much earlier.

    7. Re:may ways they are not the same by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nothing a 'drone' does can't be done by a piloted craft... except maybe attack without risking human life other than that of "the enemy"?

    8. Re:may ways they are not the same by Jerome+from+Layton · · Score: 1

      80 hour shifts? How about 8 hour shifts and swap out the operators. By the way, there is a broad spectrum of these devices ranging from back pack models with a short range and endurance to huge beasts that stay up for days.

  12. Barack "I'm really good at killing people" Obama by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I'm not surprise the UN is interested when the president of the United States goes around bragging about how many people he's droned -- including his own people, without trial.

  13. And potentially destabilizing... by cervesaebraciator · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Nuclear weapons had a stabilizing and centralizing tendency for governments, due to the great expense involved and the infrastructure needed to create them. As drone are developed and become more effective, governments like that in the U.S. may find their monopoly on force undermined.

    I would have careful restrictions placed on drone use, equal or exceeding those already on other technologies (aircraft, etc.). A great risk remains that they'll be used to expand government power. But occasionally I wonder whether the drone might not represent revolutionary potential like the flintlock musket once did.

    1. Re:And potentially destabilizing... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nuclear weapons had a stabilizing and centralizing tendency for governments

      Ah, crap, there goes the 10th amendment.... (I kid!)

    2. Re:And potentially destabilizing... by NicBenjamin · · Score: 2

      How many years did flintlocks exist before there was a revolution? They were invented in 1610, after all.

      As for drones potential to expand government power, how?

      The government always had the power to kill people it didn't like. War, the death penalty, skirmishes technically not wars, etc. give it the legal power to kill people. Planes give the US Government the power to do this to anyone anywhere back in the days of the Doolittle Raid.

      Drones increase the government's accuracy by a significant amount, but accuracy != power.

      Restrictions on drones would be remarkably ineffective. A large enough RC Aircraft, with your army's sidearm, plus a cheap wireless camera is a drone. As long as governments are allowed to have airplanes, and electronical doohickeys like wireless cameras transmitting to computers, they will have drones.

      You could restrict the government's ability to USE drones by creating some sort of international legal mechanism to decide who is a valid drone-target. Then the UN Drone Squad would kill them, or arrest them, or whatever. But for that to actually happen the US would have to agree to give it the right to execute Americans, and I doubt you'd be cool with that.

    3. Re:And potentially destabilizing... by cervesaebraciator · · Score: 2

      How many years did flintlocks exist before there was a revolution? They were invented in 1610, after all.

      Per the article cited, I actually had in mind the flintlock rifle, although Orwell is somewhat sloppy in his application of the term rifle. In any case, there is no lack of revolution in the 17th century, glorious and otherwise.

      As for drones potential to expand government power, how?

      Cheaper surveillance means many of the practical constraints our would-be lords and masters might face fall away. The same thing goes not just for surveillance, however. The cheapness and efficiency of small arms in our age makes the guerrilla's task much easier, as the U.S. occupation of the middle east shows. Yet the occupation is made easier by the use of drones.

      The government always had the power to kill people it didn't like. War, the death penalty, skirmishes technically not wars, etc. give it the legal power to kill people. Planes give the US Government the power to do this to anyone anywhere back in the days of the Doolittle Raid.

      This seems somewhat confused. Government does not always have the legal authority to kill anyone it likes. Sometimes, however, it pretends it does and new technology often allows a sort of sleight of hand. Thus we end up with our illegal involvement in wars in Libya and Yemen, with the government claiming that it isn't war since no human being is inside the drones and cruise missiles piloting them.

      Restrictions on drones would be remarkably ineffective. [...] You could restrict the government's ability to USE drones by creating some sort of international legal mechanism to decide who is a valid drone-target.

      The first statement claims that legal restrictions would be ineffective due to practical considerations. The second statement claims that legal restrictions would be effective because it forgets an important consideration of actual practice: i.e. there are a great many international laws that the U.S. habitually violate.

      I do not think rules and restrictions on drones are likely to completely control there use, anymore than I think the 4th amendment protects U.S. citizens from illegal search and seizure in practice. But without such rules give at least some protection, if only the ability to skewer in the courts those who abuse and flout the rules after the fact.

      But for that to actually happen the US would have to agree to give it the right to execute Americans, and I doubt you'd be cool with that.

      No, I wouldn't. But, then, I'm not cool with my own government having such a power (a government in which I ostensibly have some say). I'm hardly about to ask for an unelected international body to have such power.

    4. Re:And potentially destabilizing... by NicBenjamin · · Score: 1

      The government always had the power to kill people it didn't like. War, the death penalty, skirmishes technically not wars, etc. give it the legal power to kill people. Planes give the US Government the power to do this to anyone anywhere back in the days of the Doolittle Raid.

      This seems somewhat confused. Government does not always have the legal authority to kill anyone it likes. Sometimes, however, it pretends it does and new technology often allows a sort of sleight of hand. Thus we end up with our illegal involvement in wars in Libya and Yemen, with the government claiming that it isn't war since no human being is inside the drones and cruise missiles piloting them.

      Strict Constitutional Constructionists frequently miss a couple points:

      1) The entire point of the Constitution is it's not supposed to be clear. If it was clear the various branches would spend all their time tending to the bits of the government they clearly controlled, rather then arguing with each-other. Which, to the Founders, meant they'd all be tyrannical. The fact that it's clear to you isn't proof that it's actually clear, anymore then the Pope's certainty he is the Vicar of Christ is proof that all baptists are unbiblical.

      2) There major unclarity in this case is the Constitution's failure to define anything. Yes Congress has to declare war for a war to be valid, but none of those words is defined. Which means that a) the President can argue over whether it's a war, and b) he can then argue Congress declared it implicitly.

      In the context of a government that supposed to be a constant battle between branches for power, the fact the Congress is choosing not to battle on this issue seems to indicate that they support the Libya/Yemen wars, and given that the point of the "declare war" clause is to ensure the President only starts wars Congress supports...

      Restrictions on drones would be remarkably ineffective. [...] You could restrict the government's ability to USE drones by creating some sort of international legal mechanism to decide who is a valid drone-target.

      The first statement claims that legal restrictions would be ineffective due to practical considerations. The second statement claims that legal restrictions would be effective because it forgets an important consideration of actual practice: i.e. there are a great many international laws that the U.S. habitually violate.

      You're missing the distinction.

      The first set of restrictions is the kind we have on everything. Some treaty between sovereign states, that includes no penalties for being found in violation.

      The second would include an internationally funded bureaucracy to control drone issues. If the US tried to cheat there'd be a guy whose job was to stop the cheating, he'd have real powers over people within these United States, and the President and Congress wouldn't be able to dodge him. In short it would be a proto-world government.

      I do not think rules and restrictions on drones are likely to completely control there use, anymore than I think the 4th amendment protects U.S. citizens from illegal search and seizure in practice. But without such rules give at least some protection, if only the ability to skewer in the courts those who abuse and flout the rules after the fact.

      But for that to actually happen the US would have to agree to give it the right to execute Americans, and I doubt you'd be cool with that.

      No, I wouldn't. But, then, I'm not cool with my own government having such a power (a government in which I ostensibly have some say). I'm hardly about to ask for an unelected international body to have such power.

      Which really doesn't leave you many options.

      Nobody in power, including the Courts, has taken the view that the president needs a specific Congressional resolution authorizing less then

    5. Re:And potentially destabilizing... by Miamicanes · · Score: 1

      > If the US tried to cheat there'd be a guy whose job was to stop the cheating, he'd have real powers over people
      > within these United States, and the President and Congress wouldn't be able to dodge him.

      In what fantasy universe does this hypothetical enforcement agent with the authority to force the United States to do anything exist?

      It's not constitutionally POSSIBLE for the federal government to grant that kind of direct authority to any foreign entity.

      Moreover, the Supreme Court has overwhelmingly ruled on at least one occasion that international treaties have zero force against the legislative branch. I believe the case was heard by the US Supreme Court during the Clinton administration and involved a lawsuit by environmentalists seeking to force a state to stop the construction of something. They lost in state court on the grounds that it didn't violate any federal laws, then petitioned the US Supreme Court to hear the case and argued that, at the very least, the Senate should be required to act consistently with its own treaties. In the end, they were smacked down even harder by the Supremes, who unanimously opined that nothing can constitutionally *compel* the House and Senate to pass *anything* they don't want to pass. I'm pretty sure at least one Justice went a step further, and opined that if a clearly-worded treaty is backed by vaguely-worded enabling legislation, it's clear evidence that the legislative branch didn't *intend* for the treaty to be rigorously followed.

    6. Re:And potentially destabilizing... by NicBenjamin · · Score: 1

      That's kinda the point about anybody saying a weapons-banning treaty will actually deter anyone from using drones. Land mine treaties work because the big powers don't like that small powers can make huge sections of their borders impenetrable to expensive tanks with $50 WW2 tech landmines.

      But it should be noted that, to my knowledge, there are precisely zero countries in the world where a treaty is taken more seriously by domestic law then domestic law is.

      But let's say you include a treaty which says it doesn't count as signed until it's enacted into domestic law. The treaty must be funded by a dedicated, relatively small tax. It includes automatic sanctions on anybody who a) amends the treaty law without permission, or b) uses drones. The sanctions are a big deal. Something along the lines of all bank transfers to or from the sanctioned country lose 1% of their value, a 5% tariff is imposed on imports, etc. The treaty is enforced by the international bureaucracy that is set up by the treaty, which has the same standing as the local judiciary in any state that has signed the agreement.

      It's not likely we'd agree to it, and it wouldn't actually *stop* the US from using drones. But it would make the cost of the US using drones really high. At a minimum we'd have to bribe most of the world into joining our pro-drone campaign by calling special sessions of their Legislatures to amend their domestic legal codes. At a maximum Wall Street would be screwed. And the US Government really hates screwing Wall Street.

      BTW, The legal structure of the EU is an awful lot like this. EU members are technically sovereign, which means that legally speaking the only thing that stops Sweden/France/etc. from declaring blue and red to be the same color is that the EU could force a bunch of it's neighbors to play economic hardball on the issue. So if enough countries really want something like this it can happen. The problem with this issue is no country's leaders actually wants to ban drone warfare except the Pakistanis, and even the Pakistanis may not actually mean it.

    7. Re:And potentially destabilizing... by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      although Orwell is somewhat sloppy in his application of the term rifle.

      Where? And since he fought in the Spanish Civil War I suspect he was perfectly familiar with them - certainly more so than an armchair pedant.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    8. Re:And potentially destabilizing... by cervesaebraciator · · Score: 1

      If you must know,* I threw in that line in order to avoid a pedantic argument. I feared my interlocutor might seize upon the line, "After the musket came the breech-loading rifle", reading it as though there were nothing in between, so I thought I'd go ahead and concede something to avoid the discussion entirely and focus on the actual issue at hand.

      If you think this an odd thing to do, note what had come before. My interlocutor seemed to believe that citing when the flintlock was invented somehow undermined Orwell's argument. Of course it didn't, since Orwell's argument depends on the cheapness and availability of the weapon, a factor which developed over time, rather than the exact date of its invention. I suspected one who would read things in this way would assume Orwell was treating musket as any muzzle-loading firearm and rifle as a breech loading firearm. I know people who seize upon those terms anytime they hear them and insist upon greater precision. Such conversations are wearisome. Therefore, assuming such a one would prefer more precise and descriptive terms like, "muzzle-loading flintlock rifle", "smooth-bore flintlock musket", etc, I decided to try and defuse that objection by indicating that Orwell was not speaking with all the precision he might want.

      Given his response to my post, I think my efforts were misguided anyway. Seeing me speak of illegal acts of war, he decided to protest the views of "Strict Constitutional Constructionists", as though only strict constructionists see some of these actions illegal and as though only Constitution determined what constituted an illegal act of war. I concluded on this basis that the fellow had an ax to grind and although I'm interested in conversation, I'm not interested in dispute for its own sake. So, I let it be.

      * And you're not just looking for a spat. I would hope you're not, but with that attempt at a closing insult, one cannot be certain. You know nothing about me, much less what I'm familiar with, so save it.

  14. Re:weapons grade idiocy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "GET THIS THROUGH YOUR THICK SKULL :PRESIDENTS DO WHAT THEIR MASTERS TELL THEM TO DO."

    "So go find a cock to suck and quit posting here."

    Uh huh. So the whole reading comprehension thing is a bit of a challenge for you huh? So if you have an actual point to make other than to insult, call names and attack, go ahead and do so, but you can do so more politely because otherwise you are only worth ignoring, which I can do very easily.

    And I do not post anywhere, or refrain from posting, on the instructions of one such as you.

    Please try again.

  15. It's not mutually assured destruction. by edibobb · · Score: 1

    How many years (or months) will it be before some splinter group hits a U.S. political delegation with a drone strike somewhere outside the U.S.? They will see no reason not to do this.

    1. Re:It's not mutually assured destruction. by NicBenjamin · · Score: 1

      How many years (or months) will it be before some splinter group hits a U.S. political delegation with a drone strike somewhere outside the U.S.? They will see no reason not to do this.

      It'll be awhile.

      To have drone tech you need aircraft tech, and most splinter groups don't have aircraft. The ones that do (aka: Hezbollah) got their aircraft from countries, and those countries do not want to give us a reason to level them.

      Now if you mean a cheap RC chopper with a gun attached to an improvised hardpoint steered by camera, they could manage that. The trick would be getting a vehicle that small to stay stable when it's dealing with recoil.

    2. Re:It's not mutually assured destruction. by artor3 · · Score: 1

      If they could, they would do it anyway. Surely you don't think otherwise?

      Do you really believe that a group would say "Hey, we want to kill these Americans, and we've got drones to do it with, but the Americans haven't used drones lately, so we'll just stick with pistols"?

  16. Who are we kidding? by EmagGeek · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The US Government will never place restrictions on its use of drones against the American People. Never.

    1. Re:Who are we kidding? by BitZtream · · Score: 2

      ... except there already are restrictions in place. Just because you're unaware of them, haven't bothered to get any facts and just run off with your ignorance spouting stupid shit at the top of your lungs doesn't mean its actually true.

      --
      Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
  17. A flying arrow by StikyPad · · Score: 3, Insightful

    There are some ethical concerns once proliferation increases, including accountability and plausible deniability on the part of bad actors (possibly including ourselves). Still, this issue is much more closely related to small arms than WMDs like nukes. One nuke can kill millions and potentially injure millions more. It's difficult to imagine a scenario -- especially one unique to drones -- where the same could be true of one drone carrying conventional weapons. For the most part, I expect that drones will continue to be used mainly in scenarios where a cruise missile or other air strike might have been used in the past. As a species, we've been killing remotely since the first bow was used in combat. So a few thousand years now. Drones are just the latest way to keep far enough away from the enemy that he can't quickly and easily hit back, which is sort of the point of using a weapon.

    1. Re:A flying arrow by LWATCDR · · Score: 1

      The real issue is that drones like nukes where going to be developed. Once you reach a certain level in physics you know how an atomic bomb can work. Once you reach a certain level in computers a drone becomes possible. The simple truth is that a drone is just a cruise missile that drops the bomb and flies home to land.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
  18. Re:Or Bazookas. Or Flamethrowers. Or Grenades... by VortexCortex · · Score: 2

    No, it's like comparing a car accident to all cars in the entire city having an accident all at once.

  19. Welcome change by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I'll take these low level (at least as far as the US is concerned) conflicts in the Middle East over the massive wars of the 20th century any day. In fact despite the huge increases in population, the death total in the Middle East is quite low compared to that of the Crusades and of the Roman/Greek eras This, of course, is of slight comfort to those harmed but to to me it is a sign of hope rather than despair..

    1. Re:Welcome change by Archtech · · Score: 1

      In fact despite the huge increases in population, the American death total in the Middle East is quite low compared to that of the Crusades and of the Roman/Greek eras.

      FTFY

      --
      I am sure that there are many other solipsists out there.
  20. Restore the human element. by VortexCortex · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Fighting for your country has important implications that must not be overlooked. A human piloting a machine is not at risk of death. If you don't have to risk your life to deal death then it's easier to do the killing. Furthermore, requiring people to fight people in war directly increases the cost of life to the side that would win. This ensures that war's price can not be ignored by indirect killing. The deaths are tragic and cause people on both sides to cry out for peaceful resolution rather than merciless death. Finally, if people are required to fight a war, then you can not fight a war the people will not fight themselves...

    Dark times are dangerously near. The second amendment was never properly interpreted to mean what it should: The right to bear technology. IMO, only manned drones are acceptable.

    1. Re:Restore the human element. by turp182 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      This has always been one of my qualms with the weaponized drones. No potential loss of life on the part of the attacker. Without this a conflict is not a war, it is pure oppression. By design it cannot be won, only dominated.

      In my mind's eye I see a Terminator style war, except with US robots controlled by humans running the show. We don't need an AI.

      --
      BlameBillCosby.com
    2. Re:Restore the human element. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      At this point in the United States of America Incorporated, it appears that the federal government is striving to break the economy, disrupt medical care, and prune the population. Why exactly would they want manned drones?

    3. Re:Restore the human element. by hibji · · Score: 0

      On the flip side, if you don't have to risk your life to do the killing, you might be more controlled in your killing. More deliberate, fewer deaths overall, no murder rampages from unbalanced soldiers. If the system is set up right, all drone operations could be recorded and reviewed. There can be more accountability. I'm not saying that military is actually doing this, but the potential is there.

    4. Re:Restore the human element. by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 1

      So how is that different from the Middle Eastern weapon of choice, the IED?

    5. Re:Restore the human element. by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      It's been a long time since the ones doing the killing were the ones who decided who to kill. That bridge was passed a long time ago........

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    6. Re:Restore the human element. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      War without loss of human life is pointless.

    7. Re:Restore the human element. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      one of the real tragedies of war is that, if you had met under different circumstances, you could be having a beer and chatting with the dude you're facing, but instead you're forced to kill each other simply because you're wearing different uniforms.

      combat drones will turn war into a video game. and we all know how crazy-murderous people supposedly get due to playing video games (at least thats the message that has been shoved down people's throats for something like a decade or 2, despite factual evidence to the contrary)

    8. Re:Restore the human element. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So how is that different from the Middle Eastern weapon of choice, the IED?

      Landmines do not move around on their own and need to be set up by hand?

    9. Re:Restore the human element. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So you want to make sure American soldiers die? Your luddite objection to remote controlled aircraft is that it removes the chance for servicemen dying?
      You pathetic trolling little treasonous worm. That is a good reason to outlaw the internet - cowardly opinions witout the chance for miscreant teeth being lost. Quit droning on.

  21. Drones: the final frontier by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I wouldn't go so far as saying drone development is on par with nuclear weapons in terms of destructive power, but their sheer transformative impact of remotely piloted or autonomous aircraft on law enforcement, security, privacy and warfare cannot be understated. 24/7/365 surveillance. Aerial assassinations. A complete lack of accountability. Vulnerability to electronic warfare. A cost low enough to see them employed by nearly every nation and corporation on earth with an annual budget of over a billion dollars.

    We're in the future, and it's not looking pretty.

  22. The Markov State by Mister+Liberty · · Score: 1

    The Markov State:
    State where the Ricin is admiited not by Umbrella but by Drone.
    Also see: Terror State.

    1. Re:The Markov State by Daimanta · · Score: 1

      The Markov State: The state in the future not dependent on the past given the present.

      --
      Knowledge is power. Knowledge shared is power lost.
    2. Re:The Markov State by BitZtream · · Score: 1

      ... and what are you going to do with that ricin by drone ... make them think someone is tinkling on them?

      Fun Fact: Anything they can do with a drone as far as weapons delivery, could have been done 20 years ago with a tomahawk, and it can be done far better.

      You do realize Tomahawk cruise missiles are ... DRONES ... right?

      --
      Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
  23. I honestly never thought it would come to this by wjcofkc · · Score: 2

    Drones are not as complicated to make as nuclear weapons. Weaponizing drones only slightly more complicated - it' a technology even "lesser" or "backwards" countries will have perfected in a manner of a few short years, and you can bet everyone is working on it right now. There will be no stabilizing standoff. With or without ground based battle robots, it's really starting to look like we will bring about our extinction with armed and physically agile computers with orders to kill. Courtesy of the drone that got lost and made the decision to land itself on a road in Iran, we already know they can act without a human pilot. Once we have successfully committed ourselves to the death of every last human by piloted and autonomous robots - I wonder what the robots will do when there are no humans left to kill. Perhaps by the time we reach that point their decision making will be advanced enough that they can decide to work together and evolve. I wonder if they will remember us in their history. I wonder if they will be grateful for the human folly of creating them.

    --
    Brought to you by Carl's Junior.
    1. Re:I honestly never thought it would come to this by AHuxley · · Score: 2

      The drone is really like a post ww2 infantry weapon. A lot of cheap/expensive power in the hands of one contractor.
      The real new option is a political 'ok' to be seen for the double tap strike to kill rescue workers.
      Later autonomous loitering with a command to go after anything moving in an area will be an option.
      Drones really allow govs to explore what the UK did during later parts of the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Boer_War#British_response
      A "blockhouse" system with drones to divide up a country and kill anything that moves.
      Camps for the "civilians" - total death outside the camps.
      Over time counter measures will be found. The link to the drone or how to fool the software in the drone to expend fuel, ammo or just fly around.

      --
      Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
  24. And it starts by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    China has just tested it's first stealth fighter drone.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-25033155

    I hope the USA reaps what it has sown here.

  25. Nukes are different by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Nukes could kill billions in a day.
    Nukes could drive species extinct.
    Nukes could render the earth permanently uninhabitable to humans, bringing all human progress to a dead stop.

    Drones do not pose such a risk.

    1. Re:Nukes are different by Shakrai · · Score: 1

      Nukes could render the earth permanently uninhabitable to humans, bringing all human progress to a dead stop.

      You drastically overestimate the destructive potential of nuclear weapons. Nuclear weapons can end civilization as we know it. Exterminating the entire human race? Not bloody likely. Homo Sapiens are persistent little fuckers that have survived natural catastrophes far in excess of anything we're capable of doing to the blue marble with modern technology.

      The living will envy the dead and all that jazz, but the human race would almost certainly survive.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    2. Re:Nukes are different by dk20 · · Score: 1

      Especially those in power (the ones who started the war) as they have their billion dollar bunker complexes to hid in while their "citizens" die.

    3. Re:Nukes are different by myowntrueself · · Score: 1

      Nukes could render the earth permanently uninhabitable to humans, bringing all human progress to a dead stop.

      You drastically overestimate the destructive potential of nuclear weapons. Nuclear weapons can end civilization as we know it. Exterminating the entire human race? Not bloody likely. Homo Sapiens are persistent little fuckers that have survived natural catastrophes far in excess of anything we're capable of doing to the blue marble with modern technology.

      The living will envy the dead and all that jazz, but the human race would almost certainly survive.

      Put a nuke in a cobalt shell. End of all life.

      --
      In the free world the media isn't government run; the government is media run.
    4. Re:Nukes are different by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Put a nuke in a cobalt shell. End of all life.

      It's actually not infeasible for people to live in caves for more than five years. Enough of them not to avoid serious inbreeding on the way back to humanity? Probably not. But that won't really stop 'em, will it?

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    5. Re:Nukes are different by myowntrueself · · Score: 1

      When they come out of the caves there will be a sterile planet. They will ultimately die.

      --
      In the free world the media isn't government run; the government is media run.
  26. The birth of Skynet by MrKaos · · Score: 1

    I'm surprised this meme hasn't been brought up yet, however add AI and weapons to drones...

    --
    My ism, it's full of beliefs.
    1. Re:The birth of Skynet by BitZtream · · Score: 1

      Its not been mentioned because skynet is so ridiculously tired at this point that we're not even repeating it ... AGAIN.

      --
      Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
    2. Re:The birth of Skynet by MrKaos · · Score: 1

      Its not been mentioned because skynet is so ridiculously tired at this point that we're not even repeating it ... AGAIN.

      Seems like the moment when it becomes plausible...

      --
      My ism, it's full of beliefs.
  27. Well by dale.furno · · Score: 0

    Although I did not RTFA, I don't imagine Nukes could be an everyday part of our military, not like drones are.

  28. Dystopia by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    A dystopian society is about the loss of control, of people who are disempowered. We have already seen market forces which were supposed to serve people subverted easily to serve a minority in a step back to the old feudal societies they were a solution to. Profit was a means not the end.

    With concentration of economic power, resources are not devoted to what people and communities need or want but what oligarchs will profit from, forced down, and this self serving, self sustaining cycle eventually delivers a dystopia of a powerful few and an enslaved many.

    In effect the process is already underway underlined by the economic fraud of the preceding 20 years and NSA surveillance, both taking irreversible steps without public consensus. This has effectively ceded democracy to the motions of elections, and a free press, functioning accountability and economics to powerful and sophisticated ideologues.

    1. Re:Dystopia by gagol · · Score: 1

      *this*

      --
      Tomorrow is another day...
  29. Re:Or Bazookas. Or Flamethrowers. Or Grenades... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'd say that land mines are probably still a bit more of a problem than the current crop of drones. Not that it stops America from using them, of course.

    Now, once we get automated hunter-killers, that's when drones are on par with land mines. You're minding your own business and then you die because a piece of metal decided you should. Who set it loose? Who knows! You were just in the wrong place at the wrong time. Except the landmine is gone, and the hunter-killer is looking for another heat signature.

  30. Summary Says by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The summary says lawmakers can now decide how to proceed and what military uses are appropriate? What does it matter when the military refuses to stay within the current restrictions on other things... like data gathering?

  31. Dangerous road by Bruha · · Score: 2

    Drones and robotic soldiers are very dangerous. A government could order human soldiers to shoot their fellow countrymen and they would likely rebel. Robot soldiers have no conscious and will carry out those orders.

    1. Re:Dangerous road by AHuxley · · Score: 1

      Re A government could order human soldiers to shoot their fellow countrymen and they would likely rebel.
      East Germany was really the wake up for many govs on that. You had special forces with ammo and trucks/small tanks waiting to clear the streets.
      At a political and military command level orders where given and nothing much happened. Slow, countermanded, ignored, lost...
      How would a modern government find its special 'troops' who will always obey in any domestic situation?
      You test them in local law enforcement uniforms on very risky local raids. Anti gang, gun shop, drug missions encountering a lot of military like weapons.
      Then over years with profiling, questions, testing and repeated missions in local or federal law enforcement uniforms a gov can slowly build up a database of reliable soldiers who enjoy all aspects of domestic operations.
      Drone staff would be the same, watch a property with legal paperwork, less paperwork, no paperwork, over a city, follow protesters.
      One mission you get to "stop" a car on a remote property. The same testing until the correct domestic drone staff are found.

      --
      Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
    2. Re:Dangerous road by myowntrueself · · Score: 1

      Drones and robotic soldiers are very dangerous. A government could order human soldiers to shoot their fellow countrymen and they would likely rebel. Robot soldiers have no conscious and will carry out those orders.

      Judging from the behavior of soldiers in the field, conscience is a small small problem. Soldiers are conditioned to kill without thinking. Rape has always been a part of war.

      Soldiers are basically trained, conditioned, brainwashed serial killers.

      --
      In the free world the media isn't government run; the government is media run.
    3. Re:Dangerous road by myowntrueself · · Score: 1

      How does the drone pilot really know where his drone is? He has a readout on the screen telling him its East Buttfuckistan and happily kills the terrorists who are wearing civilian clothes. Maybe they look european and he is told they are chechens who have joined this al qaida group.

      Meanwhile his handlers have spoofed his readouts and actually this is South Dakota and he is killing American 'patriots'.

      Drone warfare is easy to turn around and use on your own people without the drone operators even knowing what is happening.

      --
      In the free world the media isn't government run; the government is media run.
    4. Re:Dangerous road by AHuxley · · Score: 1

      That would make a great sci fi book, short movie or movie plot. A clean war where every frame is re rendered back to a contractor at a base in the UK or US.
      They sleep well at night as every double tap drone strake is 'clean'.
      The only real aspect is flight control and targets, everything else is real time art work.
      Medals and pay, with all the strikes been reported as domestic ground war efforts.
      The classic are we over Laos and Cambodia from a past war :)

      --
      Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
    5. Re:Dangerous road by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Drones are just remote controlled airplanes - they are not robot killing macines! They have human pilots - just not in the plane.

    6. Re:Dangerous road by Guest316 · · Score: 1

      A government could order human soldiers to shoot their fellow countrymen and they would likely rebel.

      Kent State, 1970.

    7. Re:Dangerous road by myowntrueself · · Score: 1

      Thats pretty much what was happening in 1984, the war was pretty much fabricated.

      I'm thinking more of the drone jockeys being turned against their own people...

      --
      In the free world the media isn't government run; the government is media run.
  32. Re:weapons grade idiocy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I already corrected you once. It's Reavers! REAVERS!

  33. Not The Same...or Are They and Does It Matter by erebus2161 · · Score: 1

    While it might seem extreme to compare drones and nuclear weapons (and let's face it, it probably is), within a limited scope they are actually the same. Of course, so is every other weapon ever invented. There are lots of differences between nuclear weapons and drones. The number of people they kill in a single strike, difficulty and cost of construction, availability of raw materials, risk to civilians. But here's where they are the same. They give a huge advantage to a side who has them against a side that doesn't. The problem is that it's unlikely to remain one-sided for long. The question we have to ask ourselves is if having a temporary advantage now followed by a world where our enemies have drones is worth it. The same could have been said for firearms, automatic firearms, submarines and fighter jets. Ultimately, should we develop international laws to govern how these new weapons can be used? Absolutely, if the current laws don't already provide the necessary restrictions. But, unless we suddenly live in a world where the need for a military is no longer necessary, I don't see haw we can not develop any weapon which gives us an advantage over our enemies and reduces the risk to our own soldiers.

    1. Re:Not The Same...or Are They and Does It Matter by gagol · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I believe the point was that if the USA justify the use of drones to take out targets in other countries we are not in conflict with, there is a real possibility that another country can use drones to take out targets in the USA as long as they are declared terrorists. It is more about rules of engagement then the destructive power of each weapon system. That being said, I found making friends out of foes is more easy and fun than focusing on hate and destruction.

      --
      Tomorrow is another day...
  34. Foolish Earthlings by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That board with a nail in it may have defeated us. But the humans won't stop there. They'll make bigger boards and bigger nails, and soon, they will make a board with a nail so big, it will destroy them all! - Kang

  35. Re:weapons grade idiocy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I stand corrected, thanks!

  36. Ignorance by Ralph+Wiggam · · Score: 2, Informative

    "If they decide to use their own drones outside the boundaries of international law against people they brand “terrorists,” the United States will hardly be in a position to condemn them or counsel restraint."

    Every drone strike that the US has ever executed was approved by the government of the country involved. There have been no violations of international law.

    As long as Russia or China follows the same policy, the US would have no objection.

    1. Re:Ignorance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Every drone strike that the US has ever executed was approved by the government of the country involved.

      Somehow I find that unlikely. The point relating to breaking of the international law is not about using drones but about targeting civilians.

    2. Re:Ignorance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      That is not true. The US has signed multiple treaties, conventions, declarations of human rights, etc. that guarantee due process. Neither the US nor any other government is authorized to waive that right.
      Essentially it is a violation of international law to kill anybody without either declaring war first or holding a trial with due process.

      This is similar to the documents in which the UK are allowing the US to spy on UK citizens: The UK government is not authorized to give that permission without involving parliament. As the US is aware of that they are violating the law.

    3. Re:Ignorance by Ralph+Wiggam · · Score: 1

      Essentially it is a violation of international law to kill anybody without either declaring war first or holding a trial with due process.

      Someone should notify Al Qaeda's legal department.

  37. Drone Gap? by dk20 · · Score: 2

    Does that man all future presidents will start talking about the "drone gap", and how the US needs to double the defence budget to keep up and maintain its superiority?

  38. Do what i say, not what i do by gmuslera · · Score: 0

    When US bombs with drones weddings, funerals, rescuers, schools and in general spread terror in the 6+ countries where is using drones to bombard the population, is ok, we have to do it, is the right thing. If any other country dares to kill someone even by accident with a drone, probably will make a trade embargo, ask for allies to invade them, cry that there are human rights that are being violated.

    Maybe the rest of the world should take a clue and do a trade embargo and break all treaties with the US, i wonder if when Germany was in war was accepted to trade with them no matter how profitable would be doing it.

  39. Re:weapons grade idiocy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    DNFTT,P (do NOT feed the trolls, please)

  40. armament vs vehicle by globaljustin · · Score: 2

    I disagree. With nukes you will pretty much know who sent it. With drones, you could have a strike in your country and not know who sent the drone, it may even take off within your own country

    no, you don't disagree, you don't understand...your "with X you know 1 but with Y you only know 2" is a **false dichotomy**

    X and Y are absolutely not equal or congruent...

    A 'nuke' could be delivered ON A DRONE (an ICBM is essentially a 'suicide drone') or PILOTED CRAFT

    also, you are wrong that 'with nukes you know who sent it'...you know what country an ICBM is launched from, or from what location in the ocean...but that doesn't mean the country approved its launch...

    'nukes' are not at all comparable to drones

    --
    Thank you Dave Raggett
    1. Re:armament vs vehicle by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ICBMs are glorified mortar shells. not much steering involved after the initial launch. (That B stands for ballistic) OTOH Cruise missiles are autonomous drones and those have been in use since the 1940s although the ones intelligent enough to be entrusted with nukes started to appear in the 1980s.

  41. satellite or other craft or combination thereof by globaljustin · · Score: 1

    have the damn thing film a target for hours

    as if we do that, ever...

    our 'total battlefield awareness' means we use multiple data feeds integrated into a 3D battlefield rendering, with all assests renedered in real time as best as possible...

    first, we use satellites for what you describe...or high altitude aircraft networked with the battlefield assests...

    your counterpoint demonstrates alot of cooll technical knowledge but it doesn't have anything to do with my comment

    --
    Thank you Dave Raggett
    1. Re:satellite or other craft or combination thereof by NicBenjamin · · Score: 1

      The non-classified info on drones in Pakistan is that we use them to observe our targets before we level the house. This makes sense to me because a) it's hard to get good resolution on where a specific human is from a satellite, b) we have no assets on the ground in Pakistan, and c) we have no combat aircraft in Pakistan. If you google Drone Pilots PTSD you'll see numerous sources claiming that this is exactly what drone pilots do every day.

      The relation to your post was that I was showing another reason why 'ZOMG drones!!!11!!' was stupid. If you're the kind of person who worries about the US Military being heavy-handed you're the kind of person who should absolutely love drones because they produce an order of magnitude fewer civilian casualties then the alternatives.

    2. Re:satellite or other craft or combination thereof by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      our 'total battlefield awareness' means we use multiple data feeds integrated into a 3D battlefield rendering, with all assests renedered in real time as best as possible...

      first, we use satellites for what you describe...or high altitude aircraft networked with the battlefield assests...

      The drones we are discussing are aircraft. Some of them were designed first and foremost for surveillance, and most of those were designed specifically with long loiter time in mind specifically for that mission. HTH, HAND.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  42. Not really by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 1

    The thing is at the moment the US has a pretty irresistibly superior military. If Pakistan tried to send a drone in to the US to strike something, it would almost certainly get splashed before it was over land. The PAVE PAWS radar system watches for inbound craft from basically anywhere for a thousand miles or more. The US then has the USAF and ANG which have lots of modern planes to intercept and destroy it. Further it has carrier battle groups capable of swift and powerful retaliation.

    So no, a country like Pakistan will not be sending drones in to the US.

    You might note that even the US with its military power is pretty selective about drone use. Drones are basically only used in countries that have no ability to do anything about it. You don't see the US doing drone strikes in Europe or Russia because even if the countries affected couldn't militarily threaten the US, but they could do so economically and diplomatically. So it happens in places like Pakistan, Iraq, Afghanistan, places that have little world influence, and are more or less failed states.

    Also this kind of shit has happened for a long time, just not with drones. Do some research on missile strikes, special operations, that kind of things. More powerful nations have a history of going after those they wish dealt with in less powerful nations. Not just the US, the EU members have done plenty of it. Drones are new tech but the mission of "kill someone we don't like" isn't.

    Also if people of the world see an American's, and American, life as worthless because of the policy and action of some in the government, the problem is with those people, and their lack of morals and ethics, not the Americans. This is the same as hating all Muslims because some terrorists belong to that religion and use it as a justification for their actions, and some Imams preach violence in its name. This would be the same as hating all Pakistanis because some in their military and intelligence community worked to shield Bin Laden in their country.

    So if you really feel that way, that American lives are worthless because of this, the problem is you, not America. Your moral system is seriously underdeveloped and in need of reevaluation.

    1. Re:Not really by myowntrueself · · Score: 2

      The thing is at the moment the US has a pretty irresistibly superior military. If Pakistan tried to send a drone in to the US to strike something, it would almost certainly get splashed before it was over land. The PAVE PAWS radar system watches for inbound craft from basically anywhere for a thousand miles or more.

      Recently US servicemen were killed when a practice drone crashed into their ship, a ship that was set up to shoot down these drones.

      So no.

      --
      In the free world the media isn't government run; the government is media run.
    2. Re:Not really by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The other goal of all those automatic defense systems is to not shoot down friendly aircraft.

    3. Re:Not really by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The thing is at the moment the US has a pretty irresistibly superior military. If Pakistan tried to send a drone in to the US to strike something, it would almost certainly get splashed before it was over land. The PAVE PAWS radar system watches for inbound craft from basically anywhere for a thousand miles or more. The US then has the USAF and ANG which have lots of modern planes to intercept and destroy it. Further it has carrier battle groups capable of swift and powerful retaliation.

      So that would be why absolutely no drug flights from South America make it all the way into the USA.
      Also, what happens if you launch a drone from a "cigarette" boat just before it hits land? (if you hit max speed a drone would be able to lift off the deck without a runway)

    4. Re:Not really by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Recently US servicemen were killed when a practice drone crashed into their ship, a ship that was set up to shoot down these drones.

      If I remember correctly, they were trying to recover the drone, not shoot it down. I've seen pictures of the smaller models being caught in a net hanging off the side of the ship, so I presume it was something like that. Mishaps happen.

    5. Re:Not really by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The news said a botched landing, which is a darn site closer to what you said than the GP.

  43. Can't put it back in the bottle. by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 0

    I can see developed nations agree to various protocols for drones as they have for nuclear weapons.

    I don't see Iran and other radical nations or various fundamentalist groups doing so. They already make massive use IEDs which are really only modestly different in concept from drones.

    If you are going to conduct episodes like shooting up malls and weddings I can only surmise that the thing preventing use of drones by these groups is availability of the technological capability.

  44. It's A Done Deal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    With Hiroshima and Nagasaki, it was over in a short amount of time, the world looked at it in horror, and nobody has detonated one to kill a bunch of people since. With our flying killer robots, we started killing and have just kept on killing women and children and men and families in Afghanistan and Pakistan on a daily basis, over and over and over and over. Nobody can say "Oh, it's too horrible to build robotic killing machines and set them loose on people in populated areas" anymore, because we're dropping hellfire missiles on people with our flying killer bots right now, and have been for years. Eventually, some fundamentalist Islamic organization is going to figoure out how to regularly start landing submarines full of autonomous flying killing machines on the shores of New York or Florida or wherever, and it's going to be tough shit. The world isn't going to look on in horror because we've got them flying overhead in other parts of the world right now. It's too late to even say "Get used to it." We're already used to it.

  45. i think i see what you mean by globaljustin · · Score: 1

    The relation to your post was that I was showing another reason why 'ZOMG drones!!!11!!' was stupid.

    i get it now

    what you say about current use of drones and PTSD of operators thereof is the same thing I've heard/seen

    If you're the kind of person who worries about the US Military being heavy-handed you're the kind of person who should absolutely love drones because they produce an order of magnitude fewer civilian casualties then the alternatives.

    I agree here too. It's a sign of how muddled this discussion has become in mainstream media that we talked past each other but were sort of being bothered by the same phenomenon.

    Drones are an option. Using drones vs another option has effects on factors that we measure and on non-quantitative things...like the PTSD...

    Like I said, I agree that they are best in alot of situations.

    Besides what we've already mentioned, I also will add that there are liberal media types who have too much cognitive dissonance over the fact that they are not pacifists (and the implications of not being a pacifist). They **want** to be pacifist, and they talk alot about how it would be best if there were no need to escalate militarily...but in the end, they are NOT pacifists...

    So these liberal types are in favor of war, just under a more limited set of conditions...

    That causes them serious cognitive dissonance.

    Look at Rachel Maddow vs Chris Hayes...both "liberal"...both covered the *ZOMG drones* story.

    Rachel Maddow did a story where she showed a drone launching a hellfire next to an F-16 launching the same armament and attempted to educate her viewers.

    on the flipside, Chris Hayes just flapped like a wet hen about how "military force should be the LAST OPTION" over and over...

    but he never said under what conditions they would use that last option...which is the whole point of the discussion....

    I think the Maddow view is the predominant view by about a 85% - 15% margin overall in the nation. Most Americans are in agreement over policy when you measure it in human lives...the 15% are the extremes at both ends...

    The problem now is that the GOP is a drastic minority but b/c of gaming the system they have attained the power of what a slim minority would have.

    --
    Thank you Dave Raggett
  46. Ban the Earworm! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Before it's too late, we must ban these drones -- because within a few years they'll be able to crawl right into your ear and blow your mind out.

  47. Schwarzgerät by globaljustin · · Score: 1

    those have been in use since the 1940s although the ones intelligent enough

    I'm assuming you mean the ones without a Schwarzgerät guidance system. 00000 was first deployed in mid-late 1945.

    --
    Thank you Dave Raggett
  48. Psychological Horror Aspect by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I think that the fundamental problem with drones as a weapon of was is that they depersonalize killing to a great degree. The horror of war and its consequences (quite literally the four horsemen, famine, pestilence, and death) have traditionally been the check on the desire of nations to expand and dominate their neighbors. The atomic bomb is unique in that it encapsulates this horror to so great a degree that its use is unimaginable. This is primarily due to its prominence and unitary nature- though the firebombing of Tokyo killed far more people and inflicted much more devastation, it was carried out by many anonymous aircrews killing a dehumanized enemy. Strategic nuclear weapons have deterred full-scale warfare for decades, and a large part of the resistance against Vietnam spurn from the brutality of that war and it's immediate impact (Nightly news w/ napalm, agent orange, hamburger hill etc.). The drone is best analogized to the anonymous B-29 over Japan in late 1945- for all practical purposes invulnerable, and free to rain devastation onto an unsuspecting civilian population.

    Drones, on the other hand, make killing as easy as it possibly could be- a drone pilot can kill another human being from across the globe, then step out of a trailer and see the lights of the Las Vegas Strip. No one sees the death in the immediate sense, nor do they see the consequences of the killing (the drone controllers who do have a notable PTSD rate). There are no photos of drone-struck families like the iconic napalm strike photo from Vietnam in the public consciousness, even though the results are largely similar. Drones are an easy, cheap, clean way to kill, and that, I think, is the true problem with them. We revile nuclear and chemical weapons as inhumane, due to the instinctive revulsion in the method of killing. This is why we have largely as a society banded together against the use or production of such weapons. No comparable social upheaval exists for drones, as they are far too easy to put out of our minds, and out of the public dialogue.

    I think, in the words of Robert S. McNamara, that we need to think about the dynamics of killing in the 21st century, and when and how we apply it as a political force. Clearly, we could have "won" the Second Battle of Fallujah by killing every inhabitant of the city, this is certainly within the power of the United States. We cannot "win" against an idea, be it Islamic Fundamentalism or Juche or anything similar. Killing as a policy is designed to force the capitulation of an enemy, but in today's world what does capitulation truly look like? The only recent capitulations have been the ignominious withdrawals of troops from colonial wars by the superpowers. Is is impossible to think of a way for a Pakistani tribesman to capitulate. We can kill him, his family, his friends, destroy his home and livelihood, and all without any possibility of reprisal save the very membership in insurgencies that are the target of the drones in the first place. Do we crave submission? By all rights we have it- we have a vassal population that lives in fear of immediate and violent death. At what point must we accept that the killing we are inflicting using drones is politically and militarily pointless?

  49. One way to cut down on drone attack complaints by DaveAtFraud · · Score: 1

    Is to switch to having a "box" of B-52s long stick the area instead of having a drone fire a couple of hellfires at the specific house or vehicle.

    A few of those and maybe then the bleeding hearts would quit complaining about the drone strikes. Ditto for any compaints about the miniscule collateral damage from the drone strike.

    Cheers,
    Dave

    --
    They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither safety nor liberty.
    Ben
    1. Re:One way to cut down on drone attack complaints by JonnyCalcutta · · Score: 1

      Or, you could just, you know, not. That would also cut down on complaints from the bleeding hearts.

  50. Anonymous Use of Force by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I wonder if we'll see issues with states and non-state actors deciding to use them as indiscriminately as the US has been using them. Say for instance some country we have been droning has fed up inhabitants who decide to implement some instant karma by strafing the president. Suddenly you'll start getting attacks by armed drones and they won't know who did it. The implications of GIFT and armed drones are truly terrifying.

    Capcatcha: bastards

  51. Re:Or Bazookas. Or Flamethrowers. Or Grenades... by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

    The main difference is that drones are an incredibly expensive and complex way to kill a dozen people, as compared to, say, goons with machetes.

    Drones do not yet compete with goons with machetes, but that day will come sooner that you like. However, they are highly competitive with actual trained soldiers already. And if you just throw any and all ethics over the shoulder and go ahead and use chemical weapons and so on, one teensy tiny little plastic piece of shit can kill a whole bunch of people.

    --
    "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  52. Errors - many autonomous "defense" systems by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    North and South Korea both have automated mobile turrets that will shoot to kill humans without operator input, African air defense systems, Naval Torpedoes, basically every missile with it's own guidance system becomes a drone once fired.

    Tons of "drones" all over the world already...

    The US is just the first to use them to slaughter non-military "combatants".

  53. Drones: Psychological terrorism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    A few thousand casualties... many of whom were still civilians.

    You're also not counting the tens or even hundreds of thousands of people sitting at home under those loitering drones -- terrorized, not sleeping, and unable to live their lives due to the constant and lingering threat of obliteration from above -- living under constant surveillance and fear that they'll be mistaken for an "enemy". When a drone is in hour twenty-seven of circling above your house, carrying a bomb beneath it that could easily spray your wife and children among the remains of what used to be you and your neighbors' houses, you might understand just how different and horrible this is.

  54. Article Misses Point of Nukes by obscuro · · Score: 1

    The problem with nukes is the scale of their destruction and the potential to poisons regions or the world. Drones are just another new weapons system. They don't relate at all to nukes. They still could use some international controls and other attention from potential combatants but that could be said of all kinds of weapons.

    --
    Every rule has more than one consequence.
  55. Model Airplanes are Advances in Air Power by oldCoder · · Score: 1

    Drones are just souped-up model airplanes piloted by remote control. By leaving the pilot on the ground, they can stay in the air a lot longer. By using smart bombs, they can drop them one at a time, instead of a whole bomb load at once, like the B-52 and B-2, et cetera. By using stealth tech, they are less vulnerable.

    There is still a pilot with responsibility and authority, and they can be relieved in the middle of combat by another. So fewer mistakes. Drones can be piloted by a group, kind of like pair programming. And no captured pilots to be held as hostages.

    The latest technological advance is to use smaller explosives because the bombs are more accurate.

    --

    I18N == Intergalacticization
  56. Drones are here to stay! by jerry_gitomer · · Score: 1

    Comparing a drone to nuclear weapons is like comparing a 747 to its cargo (goods or passengers).

    A drone is a pilotless aircraft. It is an alternative to manned aircraft. It can carry cameras and/or missiles.

    In an ideal world there would be no need for either drones or manned military aircraft. Unfortunately we do not live in an ideal world.

    From both humanitarian and economic points of view drones are preferable to manned aircraft.

    Drone weaponry is more accurate than that of manned aircraft which results in less :"collateral" damage (fewer civilians get maimed and killed) and totally avoids the loss of skilled air crews.

    As far as economics go drones cost considerably less to build and fly than do manned aircraft and drone operators cost a lot less to train than air crews.

    Yes, drones will proliferate. They will eventually replace most manned aircraft in every nations air force.

  57. What is this bridge-like thing you are selling? by RockDoctor · · Score: 1

    If they decide to use their own drones outside the boundaries of international law

    I am interested in this thing called "international law" and am wondering how, since it doesn't seem to apply to the United States, any other country would give a shit about it if the United States refers to it while masturbating onto the biscuit.

    --
    Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
  58. Beyond Drones for Defense by Paul+Fernhout · · Score: 1

    http://www.johntreed.com/sittingducks.html
    "Are U.S. Navy surface ships sitting ducks to enemies with modern weapons?"

    And I might as well add my usual "it's all ironic", which is my comment on the main article:
    http://www.pdfernhout.net/recognizing-irony-is-a-key-to-transcending-militarism.html
    -----
    Recognizing irony is key to transcending militarism

    Military robots like drones are ironic because they are created essentially to force humans to work like robots in an industrialized social order. Why not just create industrial robots to do the work instead?

    Nuclear weapons are ironic because they are about using space age systems to fight over oil and land. Why not just use advanced materials as found in nuclear missiles to make renewable energy sources (like windmills or solar panels) to replace oil, or why not use rocketry to move into space by building space habitats for more land?

    Biological weapons like genetically-engineered plagues are ironic because they are about using advanced life-altering biotechnology to fight over which old-fashioned humans get to occupy the planet. Why not just use advanced biotech to let people pick their skin color, or to create living arkologies and agricultural abundance for everyone everywhere?

    These militaristic socio-economic ironies would be hilarious if they were not so deadly serious. Here is some dark humor I wrote on the topic: A post-scarcity "Downfall" parody remix of the bunker scene. See also a little ironic story I wrote on trying to talk the USA out of collective suicide because it feels "Burdened by Bags of Sand". Or this YouTube video I put together: The Richest Man in the World: A parable about structural unemployment and a basic income.

    Likewise, even United States three-letter agencies like the NSA and the CIA, as well as their foreign counterparts, are becoming ironic institutions in many ways. Despite probably having more computing power per square foot than any other place in the world, they seem not to have thought much about the implications of all that computer power and organized information to transform the world into a place of abundance for all. Cheap computing makes possible just about cheap everything else, as does the ability to make better designs through shared computing. I discuss that at length here: http://www.pdfernhout.net/post-scarcity-princeton.html

    There is a fundamental mismatch between 21st century reality and 20th century security thinking. Those "security" agencies are using those tools of abundance, cooperation, and sharing mainly from a mindset of scarcity, competition, and secrecy. Given the power of 21st century technology as an amplifier (including as weapons of mass destruction), a scarcity-based approach to using such technology ultimately is just making us all insecure. Such powerful technologies of abundance, designed, organized, and used from a mindset of scarcity could well ironically doom us all whether through military robots, nukes, plagues, propaganda, or whatever else... Or alternatively, as Bucky Fuller and others have suggested, we could use such technologies to build a world that is abundant and secure for all.

    So, while in the past, we had "nothing to fear but fear itself", the thing to fear these days is ironcially ... irony. :-)

    So, how can we transcend militarism?

    Simple persuasive rhetoric was tried, and failed, when Albert Einstein said, with the creation of atomic weapons everything had changed except our way of thinking.

    The economic argument against war was tried, and failed; see "War is a Racket" by Two-Time Congressional Medal of Honor Recipient Major General Smedley D. Butler:
    http://www.lexrex.com/enli

    --
    A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.