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Is the Porsche Carrera GT Too Dangerous?
Hugh Pickens DOT Com writes "CNN reports that the 600 horsepower Porsche Carrera GT is notoriously difficult to handle, even for professional drivers. Known as the car actor Paul Walker was riding in when he died, there is no suggestion anyone was to blame for Walker's crash but Top Gear's Jeremy Clarkson says drivers are on a 'knife edge' handling the car and described it as 'brutal and savage". 'It is a phenomena — mind blowingly good. Make a mistake — it bites your head off.' Todd Trimble, an exotic car mechanic in Las Vegas, says the Carrera GT is a 'very hard car to drive.' It's (a) pure racer's car. You really need to know what you're doing when you drive them. And a lot of people are learning the hard way.' The sports car has a top speed of 208 mph, a very high-revving V10 engine and more than 600 horsepower says Eddie Alterman, editor-and-chief of Car and Driver magazine. 'This was not a car for novices,' says Alterman. Having the engine in the middle of the car means it's more agile and turns more quickly than a car with the engine in the front or in the rear so it is able to change direction 'very quickly, very much like a race car,' adds Alterman. The Carrera GT is also unusual because it has no electronic stability control which means that it's unforgiving with mistakes. 'Stability control is really good at correcting slides, keeping the car from getting out of shape,' says race car driver Randy Pobst. Alterman concludes that learning to drive a car like a Carrera GT can be extremely tricky. 'Every car is sort of different. And this one, especially since it had such a hair-trigger throttle, because it changed directions so quickly, there is a lot to learn.'"
How safe is the car when you follow all driving laws like speed limits especially through turns?
"...there is no suggestion anyone was to blame for Walker's crash..." unless you follow that link which says that the police suspect that speed was involved. No question that anyone not in the car was to blame is a different sentence indeed. Looking at the pictures of the scene its hard to imagine that they were driving anywhere close to the 45mph speed limit.
You're special forces then? That's great! I just love your olympics!
... even a tricycle can become deadly.
Stop blaming the car.
The problem is the driver.
That Porsche may have 600 hp, but in the hand of an excellent driver, it would be still a very safe car.
Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
I would call this a case of driver error, not car. If you slap a bear, don't act all surprised if it mauls you.
The cow says "Moo." The dog says "Woof." The Timothy says "Thanks, valued customer. We appreciate your input."
However, it is a car designed to allow a driver to use its "flaws" to wring the absolute maximum of performance out of it.
Needless to say, this requires a driver that learns how to drive, and not the driver's ed that most get in high school.
FWIW I learned to drive in a Porsche (356c coupe) and when Dad bought a "replacement" in '88 (a '84 Carrera 3.2 factory turbo look) he immediately took a driver's course at the Sebring race track. Even the 356 with its whopping 75 horsepower is a performance car, and the rear engine design will let it get away from you if you are careless and drive it like it is a Buick.
Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos
Cars don't kill people. Stupid people driving cars kill people.
You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
You'll regret it if you're stupid enough to take it for fact.
Jeremy Clarkson and the entire Top Gear program is a comedy show for men's inner 14-year-old boys, loosely based around cars.
If you look at the show that way, it's actually pretty enjoyable.
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You know, some of us remember driving cars that didn't have airbags, antilock brakes, traction control, rear view cameras, auto felch, auto transmission, etc. Neither then nor now were those cars "too dangerous".
Do you even lift?
These aren't the 'roids you're looking for.
Every car behaves differently once it's over the edge.
Porches are notorious for "biting your head off" when you make a mistakes (of course not all of them). But the road is not the place to pull this stunts and if you want an "easy" handling car you should do your homework first.
Besides the Carrera GT is an iconic car and should be kept on a pedestal and not driven on the edge on the roads. Especially if you don't have the skills and the focus required to drive above the edge.
Love many, trust a few, do harm to none.
Porsche has ALWAYS made cars that will bite VERY hard and VERY fast if provoked. They have also made cars that are easy to drive with ABS and stability control and AWD for decades now. You pay your money, make your choice, and take your chances. Back when the 930 was new in the late 70s there were always stories of them being wrecked on the way home from the dealership and I can see how. The power came on it that car with all the subtlety of a sledgehammer. You prod the throttle in a turn and the rear tires break loose, which scares you into yanking your foot off the gas. At that point you learn all about trailing throttle oversteer and go off the road backwards. The Carrera is a bit more sophisticated than that, but I am sure 600 HP can get you in trouble in a hurry. The old mid-engined Porsche I drove for years was a ton of fun and you could learn to steer with your feet as well as your hands and go around corners pretty much sideways. That took a ton of practice to perfect or you could jab the gas and brakes and go off the road.
Fast and Furious actor gets killed in a car accident... Sort of like if Arnold Schwarzenegger got crushed by an industrial robot.
"A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of" - Ogden Nash
This isn't a warning. This is an advertisement for people who fancy themselves awesome drivers. All the salesperson needs to say is, "You know, this is a very dangerous car. Paul Walker couldn't handle this car. You look like you could." Sale!
...we have a fair number of accidents involving wealthy men in airplanes that exceed their training and skill level, which they bought on the assumption that "If I can buy it, I can fly it." This would seem to be similar.
...so someone doesn't accidentally buy a $335,000 600hp sports car without realizing IT MIGHT BE DANGEROUS.
In other news: the government has banned running with scissors.
-Styopa
And blaming the driver. A little background. While not professional drivers Walker and the driver were on a race team together and did plenty of circuit races. The guy driving has a GT3 so is more than familiar with the class of cars in question. Each had many more hours logged racing than any pilot would have flying before being able to get his flight license. It's easy to blame the driver, and it could rightly end up that way. However, the question of whether the car malfunctioned or should not be considered street legal should also be asked. Point being, if you believe these guys had no business driving this car then nobody shy of an F1 driver should be able to by them, hence they are too dangerous to sell to the general public.
And they would have gotten out alive, or at least not burned to a crisp. Tesla's don't burn their occupants in a massive fireball when they hit a street sign (and a tree, and a light pole).
And 600HP is nothing. I've got a good friend from college who gets almost 1200HP in his GTR (1192 WHP / 1402 crank, actually). I don't see him wrapping it around vertical objects.
Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
This is all an overreaction. Everyone knows that a single isolated incident of a car bursting into flames after some kind of impact is no big deal. We shouldn't be concerned until at least three reports surface in the news. At which point it instantly becomes SERIOUS BUSINESS and must be investigated!
This Space Intentionally Left Blank
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betteridge's_law_of_headlines
An internal system operation returned the error "The operation completed successfully.".
This is what comes to mind (comment subject) when CNN report that crap. CNN talks only about the car like that was the problem...seriously ? Anything in the hands of a human can become dangerous...even a damn spoon. Spoon "could" kill someone :). Seriously though, take a car, take a guy who lacked a moment of responsibility and you have a dangerous cocktail right there...same applies for everything and anything else. It's not too complex to grasp. Stop bashing on the cars...that wasn't the problem...the driver was
he says that about every car that's reviewed to be likely to spin easily, actually.
but really if you look at the damage the car had and take into account that there wasn't an autobahn in thousands of kilometers....
some say that the driver couldn't control the car because the skidmarks were straight, but I've got doubts about that meaning that the car was non functional.
world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
As someone that's driven 1,000+ HP cars, worked over a decade around high performance cars ... yes.
There are some cars that have a reputation of trying to kill you, but the Carrera GT is on the far side of that spectrum. Clutch engagement range compared to a light switch and no ground clearance makes this car difficult to drive on the street.
This isn't a 911, or anything remotely streetable. Many crazy high performance cars come with very advanced stability controls and AWD for a reason.
Because it is designed to be a simple car, and traction control is != simple.
And a car of this caliber, if driven in a fashion typical of how most sane people drive, would be operating so far below its limits that traction control would be unnecessary.
Furthermore, in its purest form, traction control only helps grip on acceleration, and the only actions it can perform is reducing engine output and/or selectively applying braking. It does not help grip when in a four-wheel drift. It does not help grip when braking. It does not help when ... [I could go on, but why?].
Kid-proof tablet..
It's not the speed that kills, it's coming to a sudden stop against those trees.
In a crash, the internal organs are still moving even after a human body comes to a complete stop. The internal organs can slam into other organs of the skeletal system. This internal collision is often the cause of serious injury or death. For example, a person’s head might collide with the windshield of the car during the second collision. The still-moving brain then collides with the inside of the skull, causing swelling and/or bleeding. This is the third collision. As total mass and speed of the vehicle(s) involved in a motor vehicle crash increase, there is a proportionate increase in the opportunity for injury to the human body, both externally and internally.
http://safe-driver.hubpages.com/hub/In-Every-Vehicle-Crash-There-Are-Actually-Three-Collisions
If you operate a vehicle in an unsafe way (including speeding) then it's your own damn fault. If you want Top Gear Jeremy Clarkson is a master of exaggeration. He called the 19'inch wheels on a mercedes AMG "the size of neptune".
did you forget to take your meds?
Don't forget, we're dealing with wholesale ignorance on the part of the media.
Having recalled stories from back when the Carrera GT was introduced there weren't many reports that the car was particularly dangerous. This is a track-oriented high end sports car. Most cars in that performance category are challenging to drive near the limits. I do have to admit a caveat; most in the automotive press gush over every new model that comes along, saving criticisms for when the car is well past it's prime. But the fact remains that there are a multitude of performance cars out there that are notorious for being difficult to drive.
Just because a car handles well doesn't mean it does the driving for you. Unfortunately, this is where the vast majority of people display massive ignorance, because they do believe that a car will save you from mistakes and incompetence. And they're convinced that the better it performs the better it will do the job.
The two guys in that Carrera GT were supposed to be more competent than most given that they have race cars. But given that they weren't career racers doesn't mean they were actually competitive, let alone any good at it. There are gentleman races all over the country where rich men bring high priced toys to the track and many show an embarrassing lack of skill.
But let's assume these guys were decent. That still doesn't change the fact that they were on an unpredictable public road, engaged in a dangerous activity. These guys crash all the time at tracks, even when they're good; they aren't pushing hard enough to win if they aren't risking a crash. So take that mentality to the open road and problems ensue. There's a reason why car insurance rates are higher for race car drivers.
All this doesn't consider the possibility that the Carrera GT might have been modified by Paul Walker's shop. I don't think that's particularly relevant, because the stock car was fast enough. But if it were the car would likely have been even more difficult to control.
Unfortunately, we've got all this ridiculous analysis when the reality is actually quite simple. A couple of guys went out for a joyride, wrecked and died. It's no different than when some kid does the same in a Honda Civic.
Driven under normal conditions, other than the extremely touchy clutch at launch, there's nothing difficult or dangerous about it. The vehicle belongs to my uncle, and in the proper settings is a blast to drive. But, you have to know that when someone hands you the keys to 600hp, and more torque than anyone rationally needs, you have to respect it. My daily drive is a 470hp Charger SRT8, but even with that, I was amazed what a kick in the pants the Porsche is.
Just another day in Paradise
NO!!!! This is the road aviation went down. Aircraft manufacturers were tired of getting sued for everything and learned real quick that improvement X made this year was fertile grounds for lawsuits because every plane made prior to this year did NOT have it. Porsche makes cars your granny can drive. If you are too stupid to handle a 600 HP car, then go buy one of those and don't wreck it for everone else.
I, along with most other "enthusiasts", wholeheartedly appreciate all the electronic gear and realize that a lot of it does make for outright faster lap times - but at the same time, I'd like to be able to switch it off should I choose. There's something to be said for hanging the ass out with a healthy jab at the throttle and shrieking around a parking lot trailing smoke, or slip-sliding around a corner on an empty gravel road in the boonies. OTOH, with extensive winter driving experience, there's also something to be said for having every driver aid known to man spinning a set of Blizzaks in the middle of a wicked nor'easter - all that skulduggery has gotten me home with far less stress than my reflexes and skills alone. There's a time and a place for everything, but a lot of manufacturers these days are eliminating the choice.
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. - Aldous Huxley
Since Slashdot is supposed to be a place for nerds... and nerds like to know the technical details more than just sensationalizing the latest headlines (or at least like to think so).... here's some technical information on why cars like the Porsche Carrera GT is so difficult to drive. I unfortunately don't have time to write out all the details here, but here are some basic principles of automotive suspension tuning to keep in mind:
As you can see... the more aggressive you tune a chassis (which the Carrera GT was designed to be very aggressive, as that's the market they were after), the less compliant the car will be, and the more apt it will bite you if you make a mistake. Is this unsafe, or just a fact of the physics involved that you can't drive an aggressive sports car and expect it to handle like your Camry?
Looking at the pictures, it's pretty freakin' obvious the driver went "Lemme show you what the car can do - I got skillz yo, no worries!" and pegged it on a public street. Regardless of any risk to others, it's insanely moronic to drive like that off-track simply because there's zero margin. You fuck up, you die. No nice kerbs or runoff or gravel pits or SAFER walls to hit...just trees and lightposts. At 45mph, that car was perfectly safe, probably safer than anything else on the road that day because it's designed to go, and crash, much faster.
But it wasn't exactly going 45 now, was it? Even IF something in the car broke, and that was why there was a loss of control - there was a loss of control at MASSIVELY EXCESSIVE SPEED. The gearhead-hooligan in me is sad, but the Responsible Adult is pleased these idiots sanitized the gene pool.
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. - Aldous Huxley
All mid engine cars have another quirk, when you are in a hard turn and you are having under steer, you actually have to hot the gas and not slow down for the turn and then you have to know the car very VERY well, because the point of no return where the rear let's go is like a knife edge.... grip,grip,grip, slide and if you are not ready for it the car will spin out. so drifting in one is for 10,000hour driving experts only. I know this,as I own a 400hp RWD mid engine custom car that is set up very much like this car.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
Furthermore, in its purest form, traction control only helps grip on acceleration, and the only actions it can perform is reducing engine output and/or selectively applying braking. It does not help grip when in a four-wheel drift. It does not help grip when braking. It does not help when ... [I could go on, but why?].
While that's true, most cars are now required to have yaw control, and not just traction control and ABS. And the traction control system is part of the same system that handles yaw control, typically built straight into the PCM.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Is the car _too_ dangerous? No.
Was the driver's IQ too low too drive such a car? obivously yes.
Well, no you don't want to skid in most races, your lap times decrease. You also reduce and have to regain traction. rarely do you see if ever in modern F1 and group 3 racing anyone skid.
time lost can be in excess of .01 to .03 of a second per incident and if you are doing 3 of these per lap on 53 laps = 1.59 seconds in the entire race on the low end ( I don't care to guess what the total would be uuhhgg )
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You know, some of us remember driving cars that didn't have airbags, antilock brakes, traction control, rear view cameras, auto felch, auto transmission, etc. Neither then nor now were those cars ''too dangerous.''
In 1972 there were 54,589 traffic deaths in the U.S., population 201 million.
In 2012, 34,080 traffic deaths, population 314 million.
In 1972, 4 deaths per 100 million miles travelled.
In 2012, 1 death per 100 million miles travelled. List of motor vehicle deaths in U.S. by year
Some people aren't really familiar with slip angles or trail braking either and the role of weight transfer in terms of taking a corner. Most people on this discussion probably have zero HPDE experience let alone seat time at a local autox/rallyx.
Bring back the old version of slashdot.