Ask Slashdot: Application Security Non-existent, Boss Doesn't Care. What To Do?

EASY by houbou · 2013-12-04 09:08 · Score: 5, Insightful

Document your correspondences to your boss when you notify vital security issues. Make sure your e-mails are not only backed-up, but you get read receipts or something showing your boss opened the e-mail (and might have read it). Keep those receipts archived. When poop hits the fan, at least, you are protected.

Re:EASY by Penguinisto · 2013-12-04 09:20 · Score: 5, Insightful

All that, and it wouldn't hurt to print off copies of those emails (and his responses!) and take those home for personal storage. That way, if poop-meets-fan and they suddenly perp-walk you out (before you have a chance to reach for your backups or suchlike) you still have usable documentation - this is in case any governmental authorities get involved, a lawsuit springs from it, etc..
Printing also gives you the advantage of having backups that you can walk out of the building with and not set off any alarms, since many tightly-regulated companies lock down the use of USB sticks, external hard disks, and etc. (my last employer -- a web-banking software house-- would literally fire you on the spot if you got caught using a geek stick or external drive on their desk/laptop equipment or servers - at least if you do it w/o prior written manager authorization and only on authorized devices.)
To top that off, the printed copies are protection against an 'oops - our retention is only set to two weeks and the backups were corrupted somehow; sorry, sucker!' move. F500 firms generally blow away anything in the inbox that's more than a couple of weeks old anyway, so if you forget to archive it off to a .pst or another folder, it's usually gone by week 3, with no recourse.
Meanwhile, it wouldn't hurt to have a bit of a side conversation with someone in legal (for a start), then escalate it to formal conversations with them via email (again, print those suckers off) should nothing get resolved.

--
Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
Re:EASY by MillerHighLife21 · 2013-12-04 09:22 · Score: 5, Interesting

This. My last job was at an after market buy/sell/trade website where I got to take over the whole project mid-rebuild after the previous staff walked out/botched the job/etc. The user base was under constant attack from phishing, fraud, scams doing literally everything you could imagine including hacking accounts. The users complained about it constantly, people were losing trust in the site.
The owners only concerns were that I add new functionality. One of them wanted me to build a blog in the midst of all this. Also were totally willing to sell user information to ad companies if it meant better ad deals.
The core of the entire business was the part that was under attack. Being the only programmer there and realizing that there would not be a job left to complain about if I didn't do what needed to be done, I finally just started doing everything once all attempts at communicating the level of importance had failed. Built and integrated security features that had been present in the previous platform. Developed anti-phishing tools. Added intrusion detection for accounts. Built my own anti-spam system. By the time I was done with it, user complaints had nearly stopped and people were significantly more comfortable. Trading went back up. Crisis was over.
Owners didn't think I was working hard enough.
In the end I collected enough numbers to measurably illustrate the impact that my work had on the company, so I resigned with an awesome resume addition in hand that promptly landed me a muuuuuuuch better job with a better company.
Moral of the story: Do your due diligence. Try to communicate the importance. If you can provide numbers that put things in perspective for somebody more business minded - do it. At the end of the day though, owners who don't understand probably won't care. In this particular situation, if I didn't take the action that I did the company would have gone under. Others may be different though, so you need to be able to measure the cost of a breach in financial terms because that is the ONLY thing the owners will care about.
Outside of that, C.Y.A.

--
"Don't teach a man to fish, feed yourself. He's a grown man. Fishing's not that hard." - Ron Swanson
Re:EASY by Jeremiah+Cornelius · 2013-12-04 09:22 · Score: 5, Insightful

Find another job.
These are not the only problems, just the ones you have seen.

--
"Flyin' in just a sweet place,
Never been known to fail..."
Re:EASY by sneakyimp · 2013-12-04 09:22 · Score: 3, Insightful

Yes it's definitely a good idea to cover one's ass, but curing a problem is a lot harder than preventing one. If it were me, I would go get the access logs (like SSH logs and apache logs) and point out all of the bruce hack attempts that are likely to be in there. E.g., brute forced ssh login attempts, SQL injection attempts, etc. I would then say to boss-man: "THESE ARE HACK ATTEMPTS and they will ultimately succeed and I want to fix them. If you don't let me fix them, you will have to take the blame." I do think that it is reasonable to draw attention to security problems even if it does step on some toes. Putting marketing folks in charge of code development is particularly infuriating to me as a developer. Rat those hacks out. As for your boss, I'd give her/him a few chances to fix and then go around. I believe it was Gen. George S. Patton that claimed he would always shift his loyalties to whoever was highest up the food chain once he made contact with them. It's a bit cutthroat, but sometimes called for if someone is doing the wrong thing.
Re:EASY by Garridan · 2013-12-04 09:24 · Score: 5, Informative

Cover your ass BEFORE you talk to somebody in legal. The legal department is there to protect the company and NOT its employees. A good legal dept will say "hey, this employee is trying to reduce our liability" -- but a bad one will say "this employee is a liability" and shoot the messenger.
Re:EASY by Tablizer · 2013-12-04 09:24 · Score: 2

Good advice, but minor addition: CC a fair number of other people. If your boss claims "I never got the message", then you have evidence in other people's in-boxes that at least you made a good-faith attempt to notify your boss and that the email system worked for everybody else.
Further, CC'ing others tends to make people more aware of a concern because they have to also consider how others are going to view the suggestions. Thus, it's a form of psychology.
Final advice: look for another job. Stubborn fools drag everybody down with their self-made Titanic. BeenThereDoneThat. Complaining to others frequently rarely works, and hurts your career.

--
Table-ized A.I.
Re:EASY by Penguinisto · 2013-12-04 09:26 · Score: 1

Agreed. Always line up the ducks before you go shooting.

--
Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
Re:EASY by tsa · 2013-12-04 09:27 · Score: 1

Indeed. However good you document the lack of progress and the disinterest of the managers, when something happens it will be your fault and you will have a shitload of problems. Leave ASAP.

--
-- Cheers!
Re:EASY by cdrudge · 2013-12-04 09:31 · Score: 1

Document your correspondences to your boss when you notify vital security issues. Make sure your e-mails are not only backed-up, but you get read receipts or something showing your boss opened the e-mail (and might have read it). Keep those receipts archived. When poop hits the fan, at least, you are protected.
I'd print them out. That way when you stand in the unemployment line, you'd have something to burn to keep you warm on cold winter's days
A print out may document it, but if the shit really does hit the fan, documentation may not cover your ass much.
Re:EASY by jonnyj · 2013-12-04 09:31 · Score: 5, Informative

I agree, but I wouldn't be underhand and I certainly wouldn't use read receipts. That looks horribly like the very worst kind of arse covering.
You shouldn't go over your boss's head. Juggling a large number of conflicting priorities is what managers are paid to do, and you won't do yourself or anyone else any favours by undermining your boss's judgement in that way. But you should also consider the risk that she consciously has her own best interests at heart rather than the business's interests. She might have the view that, in the event of a security debacle, she will pretend that the team messed up and failed to follow instructions, and simply ride out the storm. In the meantime, she looks efficient and appears to gets jobs done quickly with a minimum of fuss.
Instead, you should sit down with her and clearly express your concerns. You should then follow up your meeting with a very clear email that summarises the conversation. You need to start with an assertive but non-hostile comment that leaves no-one in any doubt what has happened - something like this, "As we discussed earlier, these are the security issues where I believe that we are falling short of regulatory expectations..." Print out that email and take it home with you.
At that point, your boss has three options. 1. She can fix things. 2. She can escalate up the food chain, so that someone bigger than her can decide whether poor security is really in the company's best interests. 3. At huge personal risk, she can quietly ignore you.
Middle managers tend to have pretty strong survival instincts, so option 3 is very unlikely to to fly. Option 2 is pretty likely, and her manager might well say that security is too expensive/awkward/boring/inconvenient. If that happens, you're probably better off working some place else where you can be proud to turn up in the morning.
Re:EASY by roc97007 · 2013-12-04 09:37 · Score: 1

He asked what we would do. In the spirit of that, I would (and have, in a previous job) do what houbou says above, and then take everything to the appropriate higher authority. Considering that things are most probably going to go TU anyway, what do you have to lose? (This assumes you have a high degree of confidence that you understand the issue and your analysis is correct.)
In my case, it caused an internal upheaval which resulted in some things getting fixed, but not enough, and when crap hit fan some months later, the company barely survived, and then only by becoming a much smaller company.
I was one of the employees laid off in the debacle, but I figure that had I not spoken up, the collapse would have been worse if anything, and I would still have been laid off, and I take comfort in the fact that at least I gave it my best effort. In fairness, I wasn't the only person who raised alarms. I guess what I learned is that companies have a powerful inertia, and it's not easy to correct a massive mistake in an acceptable amount of time. I can sympathize with people who see the approaching wall, say "oh well" and start updating their resume.

--
Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
Re:EASY by JoeMerchant · 2013-12-04 09:47 · Score: 1

If you're needing paper backups to CYA for a perp-walk, you can probably find better pay and benefits in a less stressful job at another company.
Re:EASY by Bogtha · 2013-12-04 10:03 · Score: 3, Insightful

Meanwhile, it wouldn't hurt to have a bit of a side conversation with someone in legal (for a start), then escalate it to formal conversations with them via email (again, print those suckers off) should nothing get resolved.

You don't have to approach them as if you are blowing the whistle on your boss. Just tell them you are concerned about your personal liability should you get caught breaking the law.

--
Bogtha Bogtha Bogtha
Re:EASY by asliarun · 2013-12-04 10:03 · Score: 3, Interesting

Indeed. However good you document the lack of progress and the disinterest of the managers, when something happens it will be your fault and you will have a shitload of problems. Leave ASAP.
Yes, agree 100%. Leave ASAP.
The other way to think about this is - any organization is only as good as your boss. If she or he is is veritable shite, the organization is as well. You are not only wasting your time, you are doing the equivalent of hanging out with a bunch of dicey "friends" who might go do something illegal when they are tanked up.
Re:EASY by Nefarious+Wheel · 2013-12-04 10:03 · Score: 5, Insightful

Marketing is driving the software?
They don't care about security?
System administration is outsourced?
Quit. Leave now. Take only your jacket. Your adrenals will thank you later.

--
Do not mock my vision of impractical footwear
Re:EASY by TheCarp · 2013-12-04 10:03 · Score: 4, Insightful

Potentially good advice, potentially bad.
I work at a large company where this wouldn't fly for one reason: We have a security policy that specifically forbids it. Under the security policy, we have specific guidance for who must be told and, very specifically, that it should not be discussed or divulged beyond that.
So check the policies first, because, just sending a message out to a large group of people may get you in hot water itself for violating policy.
oh and.... fuck that shit entirely, get yourself back on the market, if you have to hammer them to get them to take real security issues seriously, its not worth it.

--
"I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
Re:EASY by DogDude · 2013-12-04 10:05 · Score: 2

Why find another job? That doesn't make any sense.

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I don't respond to AC's.
Re:EASY by Nefarious+Wheel · 2013-12-04 10:08 · Score: 1

Seriously. What Jeremiah Cornelius said. Your job is officially on an escalator to Hell and the steps have just flattened out.
They're doomed. Don't take it personally, just go.

--
Do not mock my vision of impractical footwear
Re:EASY by MugenEJ8 · 2013-12-04 10:28 · Score: 5, Informative

If you don't let me fix them, you will have to take the blame.
Word to the wise. Don't ever tell your boss what they need to do. I've been in the work force for over fifteen years, and this holds true for small business all the way up to large enterprise.

Best case, you've aggravated them and they will retaliate somehow. Worst case, you've aggravated them and they will retaliate somehow.
Re:EASY by sneakyimp · 2013-12-04 10:45 · Score: 1

I would imagine a good boss would appreciate a heads up. On the other hand, I'm self employed and have been for more than fifteen years.
Re:EASY by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-04 10:46 · Score: 3, Insightful

So, how were things at MtGox?
Re:EASY by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-04 10:48 · Score: 1

Why find another job? That doesn't make any sense.
If only because it is easier to find a job when you already have one than to find a job when you're unemployed.
Re:EASY by alexander_686 · 2013-12-04 10:57 · Score: 1

The short answer is to follow the hierarchy and document everything. Document that you told your boss – that’s CYA.
Then go to your boss’s boss. Try that. Try to be constructive and offer solutions or at least avenues that should be pursued. Don’t offer specifics – that is somebody else job or a project in of itself. If you have to go negative, don’t tear down your boss, tear down the system.
Next step is fuzzier. Maybe your boss’s boss’s boss. Maybe Legal. But the steps are basically the same.
Finally, if all other steps fail, as a last resort, call the anonymous hotline. If you do work for a public company there should be a phone number that you can call. It should go to a outside group that reports to the board, not to the C-Level people. In theory it should be anonymous and they can’t penalize you for whistleblowing. Some organizations do this better than others.
Re:EASY by Darinbob · 2013-12-04 11:04 · Score: 2, Interesting

Why? If the pay is good just keep at it. An employee never needs to become emotionally invested in the company. It's perfectly acceptable to go home every day and complain that the job sucks and everyone there is an idiot. A company that has problems means that there will be a lot of work coming down the pipeline to keep you employed.
It is hubris to leave a job because of management problems at the company that don't affect the actual job, because no one is that important and there are no perfectly maanged companies out there. Yes it's ok to leave because the management problems are causing lots of stress or the hours are too long or something that affects you personally.
Leaving the company will not fix the problems, but will create a lot of headaches while finding a new job and wasting time learning the new job once there.
The only important thing to do here is to make sure that you inform bosses of any legal issues so that you cover your ass and don't look complicit, but that's easy to do.
Re:EASY by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-04 11:09 · Score: 1

In this particular situation, if I didn't take the action that I did the company would have gone under.
I get the aspect of enlightened self interest, that you moved up in the world thanks to the resume and all of that... However, a company that is managed like this deserves to go under. It's just going to become bigger and bigger, the incompetent management will once again run the company into poopoo, the next person in a position to turn it around probably won't, and the only difference is more people will lose their jobs.
Re:EASY by dave562 · 2013-12-04 11:17 · Score: 3, Interesting

This is the best advice. I will add a couple of things.
DO NOT GO AROUND YOUR BOSS. That will get you fired. Raise the issues in email, document them and move on. It is ultimately your boss' responsibility, and the responsibility of people above your boss. Unless your title is CSO or something similar, this is not your problem.
If you want to help your boss, do a risk assessment. Detail what you perceive to be the risks. Detail the potential problems of not doing anything. More importantly, detail what you think the potential solutions are, and what is involved in implementing them. This is important because you want to be constructive, and want to prove that you have put some thought into making things better, and that you are not just a whiner.
Your success or failure will depend on how you present it. The tack I would take with your boss would be something along the lines of, "Security is obviously not a high priority around here. However, I have recognized these risks that expose the company to potential liabilities under COPPA. Here are my suggestions. Now that I have documented these, I can stop thinking about them and focus on the other priorities that our team has to address."
Keep in mind, you are not going to make any friends doing this. Once it is in email, they have to act on it. To not act on it makes them liable. Keep in mind, it is not your job to do your boss' job. Unless your job description specifically says, "Mitigate security vulnerabilities in code before deploying to production.", this is not your job. Your job is to do what your boss tells you to do, just as her job is to do what her boss tells her to do, all the way up the chain to the C-level executives and board of directors.
Re:EASY by TapeCutter · 2013-12-04 11:26 · Score: 1

if you have to hammer them to get them to take real security issues seriously, its not worth it.
If you can convince them then it is definitely worth it since you will have helped secure the jobs of everyone else at the company. The difficult question is at what point does the boss' disinterest in network security become a threat to everyone's job?

Having said that, the most reliable sign that the situation is not going to change is if your boss treats you like a personal assistant rather than a professional advisor.

--
And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
Re:EASY by styrotech · 2013-12-04 11:27 · Score: 1

Printing also gives you the advantage of having backups that you can walk out of the building with and not set off any alarms, since many tightly-regulated companies lock down the use of USB sticks, external hard disks, and etc. (my last employer -- a web-banking software house-- would literally fire you on the spot if you got caught using a geek stick or external drive on their desk/laptop equipment or servers - at least if you do it w/o prior written manager authorization and only on authorized devices.)
I don't think the company in question here cares enough about security for this to be a problem.
Re:EASY by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-04 12:12 · Score: 1

A new job may not help. I've worked for several major companies (I won't give clues like the OP did), and I see the same happy-horse-shit time after time.
The dev team pushes code known to be buggy/insecure and says they'll fix it later. They almost never do.
The site goes down/gets hacked, the dev team manager gets a promotion for making deadlines and the sysadmin team gets beat up for the site being down/hacked.
If you do go for a new job, think about what you'll say in the interview, because while you may be 100% in the right, if I'm interviewing you I will think twice about hiring you. I'm sorry for that but it's true.
Re:EASY by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-04 12:34 · Score: 1

This.
There's 2 approaches to dealing with bad management; waste time covering your ass, leave.
The third approach; spend an ungodly amount of time doing the job right from the get go; is a tried and true method of building great, marketable IT people but often has the result of extending the reign of some really fucking stupid motherfuckers who deserve every last bit of fucking pain they deserve including ending up homeless because the damage they do to people's lives and the economy, other companies they do business with, etc is very real and very shitty .
E.G. We can't give out bonuses this year because Vendor Asshat "Fined" us on a shipment that was 1 day late.
E.G. We can't give out raises because dumbfuck son of the company owner has to give everyone the 3rd degree on every fucking thing so they stop communicating with them and things fall apart.
E.G. We have to fire people and consolidate business responsibilities because I need a new Ferrari.
E.G. My boss 2 companies ago who had literally, and I mean literally, 3 heart attacks due being yelled at by the shit CFO. Nobody communicated with him, company went through bankruptcy, twice.
If it makes sense for you to stay, cover your ass; Get a hard and digital copy of those e-mails together and keep them at home. When they swoop down from upon 'nigh and try to can your ass or end up in a shit storm of legal trouble, remind them it was their decision. When they fire you, choose very carefully who you show what you have to because depending on your situation you may be starting a serious backfiring shit-storm.
The only reason bad management exists is because good employee's enable it.
You CANNOT fix stupid, you have to Eradicate it
Re:EASY by Grishnakh · 2013-12-04 12:42 · Score: 5, Insightful

No, don't leave. Find a new job, get an offer, accept it, then leave.
It's extremely unlikely they're going to get into any criminal legal trouble in that time, and even if they do, it won't be traced to you. Get out and just find a new job. Don't try to be a hero: America hates whistleblowers, and there are zero protections for them here. If you reveal the problems, you'll never get a job again, because you'll be seen as a liability. Anyone who's ever blown the whistle on anything will tell you this. It just isn't worth it. The only way to blow the whistle is to do it anonymously somehow, so it doesn't taint you with a reputation as a "rat fink".
Re:EASY by slick7 · 2013-12-04 14:32 · Score: 1

Document your correspondences to your boss when you notify vital security issues. Make sure your e-mails are not only backed-up, but you get read receipts or something showing your boss opened the e-mail (and might have read it). Keep those receipts archived. When poop hits the fan, at least, you are protected.
Then you can be labeled a leaker instead of a whistleblower. Your documents will be prime evidence of your paper terrorism, may you get what you deserve.

--
The mind conceives, the body achieves, the spirit manifests.
Re:EASY by phantomfive · 2013-12-04 16:31 · Score: 1

Just out of curiosity, how many companies have you seen that DO take security seriously?

--
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
Re:EASY by chameleon3 · 2013-12-04 16:31 · Score: 1

You don't have to approach them as if you are blowing the whistle on your boss. Just tell them you are concerned about your personal liability should you get caught breaking the law.
Remember, the lawyers are there to protect the company, not you. Seek your own counsel first.
Re:EASY by Garridan · 2013-12-04 17:11 · Score: 2

Evaluate if it's worth the risk of blowing the whistle. Are these "rapists kidnapping kids" level of COPPA violations, or "accidentally picking up a 13 year-old's email once and a while"? I'd blow the whistle on the former regardless of personal risk, and simply quit over the latter if I thought the company would throw me under the bus in case of a lawsuit / criminal charge.
Re:EASY by mysidia · 2013-12-04 17:22 · Score: 1

Unless your job description specifically says, "Mitigate security vulnerabilities in code before deploying to production.", this is not your job. Your job is to do what your boss tells you to do
This depends on your company, the organizational structure, and what your job actually is.
If your boss asks you to do something that you can clearly demonstrate is illegal or against explicit company policy, and you have it in writing from the boss confirming they know about it, and to ignore the company's own policies ---- without the proper approvals from higher levels of management, then it might be time to visit HR, in order to report the policy violation so the HR staff can investigate/mediate.
Some companies may very well have policies that say "No employee may deploy new software with any known security problems to a public-facing server."
Frankly, I don't see what business a Senior Architect has doing deploying any code supplied by another department. Deploying software is clearly a system admin job, not a software developer job.
If dealing with the security issues, or approving the release is not your job --- then you should not be standing in your team's way, or your boss' way.
You might want to request a 4-way meeting with your boss, someone in QA, and someone in security, about the issue, and make sure the issues are in the relevant departments' radars, so that they will be addressed.
Re:EASY by rossz · 2013-12-04 18:15 · Score: 2

Mine does. We have to be because we are a regular target. Every line of code goes through a review process before going live in production. Even a single line change I did today, which was no more complex than changing the spelling of something, was checked by another person when merged to production.

--
-- Will program for bandwidth
Re:EASY by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-04 18:53 · Score: 1

Wow there are a lot of naive people out there. "Talk to the compliance officer | HR | document this | document that | etc."
GTFO, just like the miranda warning, once you learn of things like this, EVERYTHING WILL BE USED AGAINST YOU. There is nothing you can do or say or document that will protect you from nefarious cocksuckers at companies.
Think of it this way, it's about time to learn a new trade anyway isn't it? ...before you are laid off, outsourced, and fucked over like everyone else in America brought to you by the typical yellow-bellied cocksucker suits of world.
Do you know why lawyers and management where ties? To keep the foreskin from covering their head.
Re:EASY by phantomfive · 2013-12-04 18:58 · Score: 1

That's awesome.

--
"First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
Re:EASY by davester666 · 2013-12-04 20:33 · Score: 1

If they are worth anywhere near the salaries they take home, they will recognize that as absolute bullshit. If you were concerned about your personal liability, you would go to see a lawyer that would represent you, not a lawyer that represents somebody else [namely, the corporation].
And if you do believe the company is violating the law, you totally need to bail ASAP.

--
Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
Re:EASY by sjames · 2013-12-04 20:52 · Score: 1

I wouldn't bet on it. Sometimes it's the companies that don't give a damn about customer security that are the most deeply concerned about their own.
Re:EASY by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-04 21:53 · Score: 1

It's perfectly acceptable to go home every day and complain that the job sucks and everyone there is an idiot.
In what world is this "perfectly acceptable"? He's not shelf-stacking for Walmart. He's in a position of some responsibility at a company that does not take its responsibilities seriously. That's a recipe for a lot of stress, which is in turn a recipe for an early death.
A company that has problems means that there will be a lot of work coming down the pipeline to keep you employed.
Oh so now he has to worry about there being enough work to keep him employed? Plenty of other companies will have enough work to keep him employed. Again, he's not a shelf-stacker at Walmart ... are you?
It is hubris to leave a job because of management problems at the company that don't affect the actual job, because no one is that important and there are no perfectly maanged companies out there.
Oh God spare us the binary analysis. The quality of management is on a spectrum, and you can improve your lot significantly by moving from a company with very poor management to a company with very good management. It's ludicrous to say there's no point moving unless you can move to a company that has perfect management. This isn't hubris, it's basic optimization plus the common sense to see that real-life situations are never binary. (Repeat after me, *sigh*, oh well I guess this is Slashdot.)
Leaving the company will not fix the problems
A minute ago you said don't get emotionally invested, now you're saying he should care whether or not the problems get solved if he leaves?
but will create a lot of headaches while finding a new job and wasting time learning the new job once there
Oh yes the famous "headaches" caused by finding new challenges to explore, and the famous "wasted time" learning new things. Meanwhile you're not prepared to look at the time he's wasting because of the problems at his current company?
Seriously the worst advice I've ever read. You must be quite jaded already.
Re:EASY by Joce640k · 2013-12-04 21:59 · Score: 1

Marketing is driving the software?
They don't care about security?
System administration is outsourced?
Quit. Leave now. Take only your jacket. Your adrenals will thank you later.
Wuss.
The sensible option is to learn to relax. By informing your boss, you've done your job.
If you really want to make an effort then you can make a weekly report called "Security status bulletin" listing/naming the worst problems plus their possible consequences. Send it to the people who need to know.
Keep evidence, make sure other people know you repeatedly told the boss, collect your wage packet, go home every day. If you think this is unprofessional you need to Read more Dilbert.

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No sig today...
Re:EASY by gnasher719 · 2013-12-04 22:20 · Score: 1

Cover your ass BEFORE you talk to somebody in legal. The legal department is there to protect the company and NOT its employees. A good legal dept will say "hey, this employee is trying to reduce our liability" -- but a bad one will say "this employee is a liability" and shoot the messenger.
And _talk_ to someone in legal. No email. As soon as you send an email or anything in writing, you have created a liability. If _you_ are the reason why a vulnerabiility lead to a lost court case, that's on your head. Even if you have a _good_ legal department.
Re:EASY by R3d+Jack · 2013-12-05 01:59 · Score: 1

I agree with everything above. Furthermore, I found this thread through the RSS feed and read it because it is interesting. How many people at YOUR company have already read this? You provided enough information to identify you. All that needs to happen now is for a body-stacking coworker to go to your boss. Sorry to be negative, but been there, done that.
I understand exactly how you feel. If you are as competent as you sound, find a new job and then leave. Make sure the new place is more stable, so you can keep your conscience clear. BTW, +1 for having one.
Re:EASY by jafiwam · 2013-12-05 02:11 · Score: 1

Document your correspondences to your boss when you notify vital security issues. Make sure your e-mails are not only backed-up, but you get read receipts or something showing your boss opened the e-mail (and might have read it). Keep those receipts archived. When poop hits the fan, at least, you are protected.
Yes, this is obvious. Then print out the replies to the emails, take them home and make more copies.
Look for another job maybe, depends on what other aspects of the job you like / dislike.
Last time I checked, COPPA doesn't throw anybody in jail, and would fine the company, not the employees.
I might keep a journal at home about the events (on paper) that you can go back to and use to recall how things went.
Then, when the mommy brigade shows up to lynch the company and the feds get involved, throw your boss under the bus with gusto.
I might try mentioning to the higher ups that there are problems like this ONCE but don't be a pest about it. Chances are they know already an also don't care.
Re:EASY by Jmc23 · 2013-12-05 02:48 · Score: 1

People like you are why the world is such a shitty place right now.

--
Don't complain about syntax, grammar, or spelling. There is no.hell like input on android.
Re:EASY by Jmc23 · 2013-12-05 02:51 · Score: 1

You're an apathetic shit with no spine who only cares about themselves. Please do not spread your bullshit to other people, we don't need more of you shits fucking up the world.

--
Don't complain about syntax, grammar, or spelling. There is no.hell like input on android.
Re:EASY by Grishnakh · 2013-12-05 03:04 · Score: 1

Exactly, and that's a great point about other people: if you've already piped up and complained to your boss about the problem, and no one else has, if word gets out somewhere about this problem, who do you think is going to be fingered for it? You, because you were the one who obviously thought it was a big problem before.
No one is going to appreciate you for publicly identifying security vulnerabilities on some private company's website. This isn't worth ruining your entire career over.
The important thing to remember about whistleblowing is: if you do it, you will never have a job again. Weigh that cold, hard fact against the severity of whatever it is you think people should know about. If lots of people will die if you don't, then it might be worth it to you. Website vulnerabilities? No one's going to care. No one even cares when millions of credit card numbers or other private details get leaked/hacked from some website.
Re:EASY by Cederic · 2013-12-05 04:04 · Score: 1

And if you do believe the company is violating the law, you totally need to bail ASAP.
I wouldn't work anywhere very long if I took that approach.
Instead a very constructive, "Hey, is that the Compliance department? Who can help me assure that we're doing the right thing here?" works wonders.
You don't claim you're trying to protect yourself, you make it clear from that outset that you're looking out for the company's best interests.
If you then find out that breaking the law is corporate policy then that's the time to leave. As described, it's a compromise between speed of delivery and due diligence to assure compliance, and that's where a good compliance department will provide adequate assurance that the balance is being reached.
Re:EASY by Cederic · 2013-12-05 04:18 · Score: 1

I work at a large company where this wouldn't fly for one reason: We have a security policy that specifically forbids it. Under the security policy, we have specific guidance for who must be told and, very specifically, that it should not be discussed or divulged beyond that.
Hell yes. Tell as few people as possible about security issues, whether it's corporate policy or not.
Appropriate escalation is massively different to a public broadcast. Proportionate and responsible engagement with relevant individuals will upset at most the direct manager, and even then only for skipping past him.
Re:EASY by Cederic · 2013-12-05 04:28 · Score: 1

I like your approach - sensible, measured, responsible, pragmatic and realistic.
I'd challenge only one thing: If the manager adopts option (3) and you genuinely believe the law is being broken, I would escalate.
My manager is never senior enough to tell me to break the law.
I also don't flee a good job purely because I disagree with the chosen compromise between legality and convenience. I do assure that the lega/compliance department have had the opportunity to review and advise the senior manager making that decision.
Re:EASY by TheCarp · 2013-12-05 05:27 · Score: 1

Exactly. And...if the relevant individuals don't care, why would you care more than them? It is, quite litterally their problem. If it hurts the company and your job, that may be your problem but.... and I can't stress this enough.... if that happens, for those reasons, then.... your problem is not the security problem; its the management; and you should stop trying to help them more than they want to be helped, and plan your exit strategy before it comes crumbling down on top of you.

--
"I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
Re:EASY by AbominousSalad · 2013-12-05 07:26 · Score: 1

And if it's possible that there's a criminal negligence case against your boss, pursue it proactively. Throw the whole company under the bus.
It's either the company, or the users.

--
Every trollism an AC posts is prefixed, in my mind, with "A. Coward whined, in a weak and cowardly voice:"
Re:EASY by Jeremiah+Cornelius · 2013-12-05 07:57 · Score: 1

Whisleblower into woodchipper syndrome.

--
"Flyin' in just a sweet place,
Never been known to fail..."
Re:EASY by RockDoctor · 2013-12-08 13:55 · Score: 1

Meanwhile, it wouldn't hurt to have a bit of a side conversation with someone in legal (for a start),
The first legal that you should be talking to is your own legal department - the ones that your trade union hire to protect you (their customers and employers) from your employers.
You do pay your union dues don't you? Otherwise you are so totally fucked. They will sell your ass to Big Boylover in the jail and your family into white slavery. For starters.

--
Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"

Find a new job by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-04 09:08 · Score: 1

Find a new job. Thread over.

Re:Find a new job by Aighearach · 2013-12-04 09:13 · Score: 3, Insightful

Or just care less.
Re:Find a new job by mlts · 2013-12-04 09:15 · Score: 3, Insightful

Seconded. This is a pile of manure just waiting to fall onto someone as a scapegoat, and it might be that the application is already compromised.
Approaching legal won't do the trick. They will immediately turn around and tell the boss that so and so have gone over their head... and this won't be good for future (or present) job prospects.
Were I in your shoes, I would be honing my LinkedIn profile, updating the resume, maybe shooting for a certificate or two for keywords, and starting the hunt.
In previous IT jobs, I've heard the mantra, "security has no ROI" plenty of times, followed by, "Geek Squad can fix it if we get hacked" when I ask the obvious followup question. When you hear that song and dance, run.
Re:Find a new job by Penguinisto · 2013-12-04 09:24 · Score: 1

Yes and no... nowadays, with mandatory reporting in some cases, and every newly unemployed developer on the planet able to post to any number of disclosure lists, I'm not seeing too many management types left these days that would take such a stupid risk.

--
Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
Re:Find a new job by DuckDodgers · 2013-12-04 13:41 · Score: 1

The problem with simply caring less is that if the company suffers from a well-publicized or otherwise expensive hack, your boss may manage to shift the blame onto you. Then you're looking for a job while unemployed. It's much easier to do a job search while you're still employed, because you can take your time and pick the best opportunity that comes up instead of grabbing the first thing available, even if it sucks, because you have no income.
Re:Find a new job by mysidia · 2013-12-04 17:28 · Score: 1

Yes and no... nowadays, with mandatory reporting in some cases
So? They can ignore mandatory reporting, as long as it's not in the news and no end users can prove the breach. As long as management never acknowledges that there ever was a breach (experts can be cherrypicked to investigate, and eventually come to the conclusion that there was no breach for "formal documentation purposes" --- regardless if there was or not).
If the authorities find out; it's just some fine anyways.
Re:Find a new job by Joce640k · 2013-12-04 22:08 · Score: 1

Or just care less.

this is the root cause of the original problem, why would you keep compounding the issue?
You need to read more Dilbert. Seriously.

clearly the OP takes some semblance of enjoyment and self satisfaction from his work
He should get a hobby...?

--
No sig today...

submit to legal department by i+kan+reed · 2013-12-04 09:09 · Score: 1

Explain the possibility of liability. Let them investigate the risks. Problem will then resolve itself from the top down.

Re:submit to legal department by i+kan+reed · 2013-12-04 09:18 · Score: 1

That's, sadly, the extent of his employer's financial liability then and his manager is making the financially sensible choice. If the laws aren't in favor of the customer enough to make an incentive, then that's everyone's problem, not the OP's.
Re:submit to legal department by jvj24601 · 2013-12-04 09:18 · Score: 2

That will only work if the chief legal counsel believes the odds are against them.
We're in IT; the odds are never in our favor.
Re:submit to legal department by Finallyjoined!!! · 2013-12-04 09:23 · Score: 1

Where I work, at an ISP, the "meat space" buildings are all uninsured, however the datacentres & headends are. i.e. it's cheaper to compensate bereaved relatives than the increase in insurance premiums required to provide the cover.

--
If I had an Ass, I'd call it Fanny Bottom, then I could slap my Ass; Fanny Bottom, on the Arse.
Re:submit to legal department by i+kan+reed · 2013-12-04 09:26 · Score: 1

Well, telling the company about itself isn't going to annoy itself. Telling federal or state officials might, but then... whistle-blower protection laws, suckers(you still secretly get blacklisted).
Re:submit to legal department by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-04 09:53 · Score: 1

Well, telling the company about itself isn't going to annoy itself.
Those are the words of someone who has never told a company about itself.
Re:submit to legal department by v1 · 2013-12-04 10:10 · Score: 1

That will only work if the chief legal counsel believes the odds are against them.
Don't forget that an action that saves a few thousand dollars, that has a 10% chance of costing a million, is still a very bad risk, statistically speaking. That risk/loss multiplier is frequently a game-changer. We don''t buy insurance because we think we're going to run into a tree, we buy insurance because we can't afford it if we do - the odds of it happening aren't high, but aren't small enough to be able to ignore, and the loss if it happens is simply too great.

--
I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.
Re:submit to legal department by mysidia · 2013-12-04 17:33 · Score: 1

Don't forget that an action that saves a few thousand dollars, that has a 10% chance of costing a million, is still a very bad risk
When it comes to security; an action that saves a few thousand dollars, that has a 0.01% chance of costing a million, is still a very bad risk.
Remember.... something that happens 0.01% of the time, is still essentially guaranteed to eventually happen, after approximately 10000 times on average.
To save that few thousand dollars; the risk scenario has to pan out in your favor every time ------- an attacker only has to get lucky once.
Per the law of very large numbers...... statistics is totally stacked against you; with a large enough sample size (attacks, or days); the probability of an attacker getting lucky approaches 100% pretty darn quickly, even if only 0.01% of the time you expect to incur that cost.

Go on .. tell us who by OzPeter · 2013-12-04 09:12 · Score: 4, Funny

And I guarantee that all your problems will be solved very quickly by the dedicate volunteers who visit this site.

But you may need to brush up your resume first.

--
I am Slashdot. Are you Slashdot as well?

Re:Go on .. tell us who by Drethon · 2013-12-04 09:15 · Score: 1

That use of dedicated and volunteers is 100% accurate given they are both but "dedicated colunteers" and the same people... I think amused best describes my thoughts.
Re:Go on .. tell us who by nerdblogpl · 2013-12-04 09:30 · Score: 1

Fortune 500 company that has something to do with kids and recently revamped their website? Shouldn't be that hard to find.
Re:Go on .. tell us who by lakeland · 2013-12-04 10:34 · Score: 2

The submitted did.
A Fortune 500 company for anyone with kids. That list is about 20 long - it would be very easy to work it out from the submission if you were that way inclined.
Re:Go on .. tell us who by amicusNYCL · 2013-12-04 10:49 · Score: 3, Interesting

Well, here's the list:
http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune500/2013/full_list/
They have a website and mobile apps and are a household name for people with kids. Hmm. How about Apple?
Or maybe #66, Walt Disney. Or Time Warner. Or General Mills, or Kellogg. Or Toys R Us. Or GameStop.
Or depending on how much you like having your kids, maybe Las Vegas Sands.
Or depending on how much you liked making your kids, maybe Pfizer.

--
"Our two-party system is like a bowl of shit looking at itself in a mirror." - Lewis Black
Re:Go on .. tell us who by bill_mcgonigle · 2013-12-04 14:02 · Score: 1

Yep, and there's enough information in this description to figure out which one, when correlated with a popular website survey tool that shows that they recently underwent a server platform change. But it's one we're not all too fond of here, so I don't pity the fool who enables them. I am, however, aware of how insanely litigious they are, so it's not worth it for me to call out which company is in violation of COPPA.
If this was a very subtle whistleblowing, then hat's off, I suppose.

--
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)

Call Elbonia by Chemisor · 2013-12-04 09:13 · Score: 4, Funny

There are some newly unemployed hackers in Elbonia, made deaf and blind by viewing Wally's browsing history. Be a good sport and hire a few of them to break into your website. They are cheap and, being deaf and blind, would not be able to actually see anything useful for identity theft, but will sure be able to get your boss to see the light.

advise & document by KernelMuncher · 2013-12-04 09:13 · Score: 1

Have a written copy (email) of your exchanges with the boss. Advise him/her of the security risk and what consequences could occur if the software were compromised. If there's no response on the matter forward the communication to the legal department.

It won't be a problem until it's a problem... by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-04 09:15 · Score: 1

...then it will be your problem no matter how well you perform due diligence in this case. This is why I'm making it a rule that if I have to be responsible for making decisions, I want irebokable severance going forward so I can do the right thing by the stockholders without fear of retaliation due to butt-hurt bosses...

Re:It won't be a problem until it's a problem... by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-04 09:53 · Score: 1, Funny

irebokable severance

Severance that can't be...given Reebok shoes?
Re:It won't be a problem until it's a problem... by epe · 2013-12-04 11:00 · Score: 4, Insightful

Leave, ASAP.. quit:
it is a problem of ethics.. don't work in an environement that does not adjust to your ethics. That's it.
Re:It won't be a problem until it's a problem... by Frobnicator · 2013-12-04 14:20 · Score: 1

No need to leave over that corporate decision. It is likely to only be a problem if you make it one.
If you are afraid you can CYA with a printed paper trail showing their responses, and then do the job you are paid for.
The company bought the software, they did the risk management, and they decided to use it. It is improbable that a developer would be fired over security problems for the platform that was brought in externally. You found some security bugs and were told not to fix them in this release. Good enough, get QA to mark them as "known shippable" or "deferred" and move on to the next bug.
For all you that may even be THE ENTIRE REASON the fortune 500 company bought the product to begin with; they can disclaim liability because someone else made the system.
You reported some bugs. They are choosing not to fix those bugs. This is normal in software development. Some bugs get fixed, some bugs ship. This is daily life.
If you spend your time bringing up security problems and going over your manager's head, following that route will quickly lead to the unemployment lines. Just carry on with your job; some bugs are not getting fixed in this release, nothing else to see here.

--
//TODO: Think of witty sig statement

Don't do anything if you have kids. by musixman · 2013-12-04 09:16 · Score: 1

Does it ever work out well for the whistle blower? Document your concerns then move on... it's better then being unemployed.

Re:Don't do anything if you have kids. by gtall · 2013-12-04 10:43 · Score: 1

I'd vote for moving on. Companies can be quite vindictive and screw you over with any future employers. They have even been known to sue whistle-blowers.

Don't ask /. by Dishwasha · 2013-12-04 09:17 · Score: 4, Interesting

I'd start by not advertising to a large public forum containing a lot of people with security exploit experience and motive about your companies web security vulnerabilities where your synopsis easily reduces the attack vector to significantly less than 500 potential targets. How many fortune 500 companies exist that target kids, let alone ones that have a female web software development manager? Also, it should be fairly easy for somebody in the industry to discover which fortune 500 kid targeted companies outsource their system administration.

At this point, I would do nothing. If they aren't hacked within a week after you posting this article then the security vulnerabilities don't really matter.

Re:Don't ask /. by paavo512 · 2013-12-04 09:26 · Score: 4, Insightful

At this point, I would do nothing. If they aren't hacked within a week after you posting this article then the security vulnerabilities don't really matter.
Maybe this was the strategy of OP? In that case, brilliant!
Re:Don't ask /. by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-04 09:34 · Score: 1

... let alone ones that have a female web software development manager.
In the F500, that is not going to narrow it down - I can guarantee you that all of them have at least one female development manager, and probably many more.
For my stereotype of the day: I'm going to guess that you are over 50 years old.
Re:Don't ask /. by jonpublic · 2013-12-04 10:32 · Score: 1

So Disney?
Re:Don't ask /. by Dishwasha · 2013-12-04 10:38 · Score: 2

If that was the OP's strategy, then (his|her) brilliance is inversely proportional to the terms of the NDA s?he may have signed on employment.
Re:Don't ask /. by MountainLogic · 2013-12-04 13:36 · Score: 1

Hey, Bob, is that you who posted this article?

Paper trail by bugnuts · 2013-12-04 09:18 · Score: 4, Insightful

Plain and simple, keep your old emails, offline. If you get cornered for a conversation in person or phone, no problem... just dash off an email stating "You know how you were telling me at lunch not to worry about the security vulns? This still really bothers me. There's got to be a way to mitigate it without affecting deadlines. Imagine the missed deadlines if we lose our infrastructure to an easy hack."

Don't sound like a troublemaker, but rather, a concerned worker.

Make it clear you're the professional, and in your professional opinion and that of industry standards, security is sorely lacking. Itemize the issues you have in an email. Keep that email.

Support their decisions, and live with it.

Finally, if the shit hits the fan and anyone points fingers at you, refer them to that email. If they fire you for it, that's when you become a troublemaker.

Cover your own arse. by TechyImmigrant · 2013-12-04 09:18 · Score: 1

Cover your own arse. Document that you were the one reporting the problems and violations. You may lose your job anyway. Prepare for alternative employment. This is always easier while you are still employed. Once you have a reasonable plan for alternative employment you can start making demands. You may either be the hero, or you may end up in the other job.

--
I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.

Re:Cover your own arse. by mrbester · 2013-12-04 11:22 · Score: 1

Get documentation. Get a new job. Get them in the shit.
You've tried many times already to alert them to problems and the fact that there is illegality involved means they don't give a fuck. So why should you?

--
"Wait. Something's happening. It's opening up! My God, it's full of apricots!"

Up to you by Drethon · 2013-12-04 09:20 · Score: 1

To me it is all based on what your own conscious demands. I spent years battling with my employers about their testing methods (the solution to the program crashing is the user should never enter that combination of values... yet you aren't going to prevent them from doing just that?) and got nowhere. At this point I put in my 40 a week, document the rejection of my recommendations (e-mail archives are your friend) and take pride in what I do outside of work.

If your conscious wont allow for that... ask someone else.

Re:Up to you by rossz · 2013-12-04 18:32 · Score: 2

I had a similar experience many years ago. The very first test I did with every build was press both hands on a bunch of keys. It almost always locked the system up completely. So I'd reject it. The lead programmer (who as an idiot) kept saying, "don't do that." My response was, "that's a cat jumping on the keyboard, or a tired person accidentally leaning on the keyboard. It's something that will happen. And when it does, it locks the system so tight you have to do a hard reboot." BTW, this was back in MSDOS days.
One day he told me my job as QA wasn't to QA the program (like I said, he was an idiot). So I said, fine, and quit on the spot. I don't do QA now. I hated it. Now I'm a system admin.

--
-- Will program for bandwidth
Re:Up to you by Drethon · 2013-12-05 00:56 · Score: 1

Bah, after a 10 hour day I have the energy to spell check, not grammar check ;p

Approach the CHAIRMAN not the CEO by Bruce66423 · 2013-12-04 09:20 · Score: 1

It's his responsibility to protect the company from idiots. Alternatively speak to the auditors, who also have a duty to report concerns. But on the whole you are probably screwed; whistle blowers tend to be shot on principle even if they have done the right thing - a new job is probably the best solution.

Re:Approach the CHAIRMAN not the CEO by mrbester · 2013-12-04 11:25 · Score: 1

*His responsibility*? Fuck that noise. He tried already. They don't care. Fuck them. He owes them nothing.

--
"Wait. Something's happening. It's opening up! My God, it's full of apricots!"
Re:Approach the CHAIRMAN not the CEO by Bruce66423 · 2013-12-05 01:22 · Score: 1

The responsibility of the Chairman, not the development manager. But yes, he's tried very hard to avoid a hard landing; if I was him I'd be looking for a new job.

Impossible. by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-04 09:21 · Score: 1

I've been told repeatedly here on slashdot and elsewhere that private companies, especially big ones, don't have IT problems, only the goverment does because everything the goverment does is terrible while everything the private sector does is perfect. So either you are lying or they are wrong.

Outsourcing by K.+S.+Kyosuke · 2013-12-04 09:21 · Score: 3, Funny

However it's a security nightmare for sysadmins (which is all outsourced)

So it is the security nightmare that is outsourced? Finally someone got outsourcing right.

--
Ezekiel 23:20

Prove It by Jah-Wren+Ryel · 2013-12-04 09:21 · Score: 1

Can you get budget to hire a security penetration tester? There are companies which will do penetration testing and then give you a report documenting all of the vulnerabilities they found. With that in hand you have a much stronger case to convince management to fix the problem because now it is a highly qualified security expert that has documented explicit problems.

--
When information is power, privacy is freedom.

Re:Prove It by u38cg · 2013-12-04 10:02 · Score: 3, Interesting

A lot of pen-tester companies will do some initial work for free. At my work, the company who was asked to present to the responsible committee went round each person and handed out a little slip of paper - with their password on. They got retained.

--
[FUCK BETA]
Re:Prove It by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-04 10:36 · Score: 1

I must second this. Do the professional thing: Obviously the company is not all clueless, after all they hired a security conscientious Senior Engineer and Software Architect (YOU) to oversee and follow up on how things go. Just ask yourself what are you bringing to the table. Based on your post, I imagine that the answer might be something along these lines: I know this and that about information security and COPPA and I see that we have less than ideal outsourcing mode wrt. information security and the associated exposure to risk of brand damage.
Since you asked what would I do, I'd find the person who's job is to manage security and/or PR risks, let him/her know about the concerns and cooperate to prepare a useful proposal about commissioning an IT security company to audit the information security of the website and related software process and critically asses the risks, including the business impact of various potential incidents. That should give you, the person responsible for risk management and ultimately your boss a good idea of how much effort should be put to improving the practices that contribute to the risks. There shouldn't be any good reason to engage in a blame game with your boss or the marketing department overriding you, I'd just try to put my ego aside for a while and remember that there are various levels of understanding of information security risks and their impact, and your average marketing manager might not have the educational background to make informed choices about how much to invest in security and other quality factors versus the development of new features. Again, that's probably one of the main reasons they hired you, so just do your job, professionally and modestly, talking to the right people and not going all pointy fingers lest you wish one end up pointing at you. Do your homework and proceed to educate people making the decisions.
Another thing - you must not be the only SW person in the company, find another IT guy who's already done some time looking at the ominous clouds of uncontrolled outsourcing clutter the once clear blue sky and begin to shadow the spring fields where happy in-house hackers used to craft software that shone on to your customers the love that was put to writing it. Talk to that person, try to find out what has already been done about the problem and whether there is maybe some underlying organizational disfunction at the root cause of the mess you were brought in to patch up. Sometimes in large organizations things that appear absurd (in your case blatant? disregard of security risks) indeed are badly wrong, but not because someone (anyone telling you deadlines are more important) just doesn't get it, or any other immediately obvious reason - the actual cause could be something that only people closer to the source of the problem are aware of and with a high probability related to interpersonal dynamics somewhere in the organization. Maybe your boss has tried to escalate the concerns and gotten dismissed, so try serving him/her some coffee to check that you have a good understanding of his/her point of view.
Last but not least, don't get overly anxious about your situation - Senior Engineers intuitively know that there have been generations of Senior Engineers facing similar problems before them and that there will be generations and generations to come, of future Senior Engineers facing similar problems, after they themselves have finally been promoted to Principal Engineers to figure out problems with ever thicker hair, higher risks and worse underlying organizational mess at their cause.

How serious is it really? by Khashishi · 2013-12-04 09:22 · Score: 1

So let's say it gets hacked. Are we talking minor embarrassment, or serious privacy violations? All big companies patch stuff all the time, after they deploy. Adobe probably has a big list of things that need fixing when they get around to it, which maybe explains why there are constantly updates.

Re:How serious is it really? by gl4ss · 2013-12-04 17:57 · Score: 1

well lawsuits and all that jazz if it gets hacked or known which company it is, since they're technically breaking the law by having the data stored so.

--
world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.

Integrity Hotline by MNNorske · 2013-12-04 09:24 · Score: 4, Interesting

If you're working for a Fortune 500 company there likely will be some form of internal integrity hotline. I know my own corporation has one. Document your concerns and contact them. I recently had to report a concern raised about one of the major offshore contractors we use to our integrity hotline and it was actually a very good experience from my side. After submitting the issue it took a few days but an investigator from our legal department contacted me and we had a phone conversation, and then I forwarded him some additional details I had held back from the initial correspondence. I did that mostly to protect an individual from the contractor who brought the concerns to my attention.

I would make sure that the correspondence you send to your legal department includes copies of some of the email chains you have with your managers, peers, etc... raising the concerns. Be sure to specify any regulations you suspect are being violated. If the legal team determines there is concern you can bet that change will happen. If they determine otherwise, then you've done your due diligence and reported it within the means your company gives for you to report it.

Re:Integrity Hotline by nameer · 2013-12-04 11:35 · Score: 1

In general, if you absolutely know that you are in the right, don't report anonymously. If you report as yourself you have protection against retaliation. If you report anonymously, those protections go away because the ethics/integrity dept can't show that there is retaliation without knowing that it was you that reported the misconduct.

--
"Uh... yeah, Brain, but where are we going to find rubber pants our size?" --Pinky

Been there by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-04 09:24 · Score: 1

I did the smart thing; put my paper on the street (immediately) and started searching for a better, smarter, place to work (and found it). When shops abandon all the lessons and experience learned over decades of maturing our industry; It is unlikely to matter. "Agile" has been and is often used as an abomination to do a way with pesky issues such as quality control, proper coding, release strategies, and requirements (dont be haters, Agile used correctly is a powerful tool for rapid development). Turning everything into a "beta" product that is ripe for failure and abuse and releasing it to the public, and the burden of the results or responsibility will not fall on the shoulders of those who made that decision. Thats why they made it. Since your in a Fortune 500, I would look for greener pastures inside as well as talk with a few 'good/effective' recruiters.

Re:Put it in writing by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-04 09:25 · Score: 1

^ This. CYA is the name of the game. I used to do security/pen testing/sys admin stuff for a living and I can tell you that I practiced CYA at every turn. Inform everyone that needs to know, copy yourself on all communications and print them for a hard copy (include headers). Speak with anyone above you and lateral that will listen. Make your concerns known or else failure to do this may come back to bite you. Your boss could very well say she asked you to do something about it and make it look like it was you who were guilty of inaction. Seen this happen. More than once. Keep copies of everything.

Re:risky but very useful by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-04 09:25 · Score: 1

create a problem LIVE and let the company go in nightmare mode.

I'm pretty sure that what you are describing is neither legal nor ethical.

Talk to an attorney. by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-04 09:26 · Score: 1

You should get advice from an attorney. You COULD be held responsible if something happens. Do you think your boss would stand by you and say you did your job, but she told you to wait?

Prosicutors would pin it on you because you failed to report it, and those truely guilty would use you as a scapegoat. Be smart, talk to an attorney, then at the very least you need hard evidence that you went to your boss, several times, and even over her head. If you have plausable deniability, then you are mostly covered.

Watch your p's and q's. dot your i's and cross your t's.

hate to say it BUT... by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-04 09:26 · Score: 1

that's pretty much what I did for several years... (well, that & pay off our house so it wouldn't matter that much if I got blamed)

I even coined a Dilbert-esqe term for it: "the rapt* principle - no cube dweller ever got rewarded for being right about someone in a corner office being wrong..."

*long story I'll spare everyone

it's definitely the corporate Kobayashi Maru...

that said (& as others have noted): DOCUMENT! DOCUMENT! DOCUMENT! it won't save you from corporate scape goatting but could from a legal/PR/future job hunt problem...

how much money can be lost? by alen · 2013-12-04 09:26 · Score: 1

what's the worst thing that can happen if the site is hacked? any CC info? how much money will be lost

not every site and data should be treated like fort knox. keep your emails for CYA purposes and keep doing what you are doing

Re:how much money can be lost? by sconeu · 2013-12-04 10:41 · Score: 2

Jail is the worst that can happen. Remember, he said "COPPA". That's a federal law regulating how websites deal with children.

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Whitepaper by Spazmania · 2013-12-04 09:27 · Score: 1

I wrote a memo laying out all the issues in layman's terms and proposing solutions. Then I gave it to my boss. A little while later with no further movement on the problem, I quit.

A year passed and the system was hacked. Publicly. Embarrassingly. Folks here on Slashdot asked what the sysadmins could possibly have been thinking. So, I published a copy of the memo I had written.

Your mileage may vary.

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Re:Whitepaper by DogDude · 2013-12-04 10:07 · Score: 1

So you lost a job AND put yourself in legal jeopardy? Somehow I don't think that was the best way to handle your problem...

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Contact your companies Compliance Officer by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-04 09:28 · Score: 3, Insightful

A fortune 500 company that deals with any area that has Federal compliance laws like COPPA, HIPPA, etc should have a compliance officer. They would be the person to contact for issues like this and contacting them should address all your issues.

1) It gives a paper trail showing you raised the issue and should prevent you from being the scape goat when something happens.

2) It should give you someone who understands the relative compliance laws and the risks associated with not complying.

3) The compliance officer should then have the juice to get something done if they determine this is a legitimate issue. If they determine it isn't an issue then their neck is on the line not yours.

Re:Contact your companies Compliance Officer by TubeSteak · 2013-12-04 15:36 · Score: 1

3) The compliance officer should then have the juice to get something done if they determine this is a legitimate issue. If they determine it isn't an issue then their neck is on the line not yours.
The submitter doesn't just want to cover their ass, they want to do a good job.
It's endlessly frustrating when it seems like your boss or co-workers are conspiring to keep you from doing the best work that you can.

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[Fuck Beta]
o0t!

This happened to me. Please read the following by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-04 09:28 · Score: 3, Interesting

This happened to me when I was contracting for the USDA. Developers were pulling SQL statements in url strings. No... I'm not kidding. Literally "SELECT * FROM .

1) keep a copy of every email you sent.
2) evaluate the situation from an objective point of view. Should security be breached... what would be the possible fallout?

If personal information loss is part of this, immediately take your concerns to your legal team. In my case, I was told by several individuals it was not a problem and it was safe followed by my supervisor who told me it would be fine. I was okay with it until I realized I could pull anyone private information this way including social security numbers.

The legal team was very easy to work with. We had to self report 56 violations and my supervisor and two developers were terminated.

In this case I follow my uncle's advice by NotSoHeavyD3 · 2013-12-04 09:29 · Score: 1

He's of the opinion that you give your opinion once. If they choose not to listen to you well fuck them. (Admittedly my uncle is very smart, has an ivy league degree. Anybody that ignores his advice is royal fucked.) I'm guessing the best thing to do is start looking for a new job because some how I doubt they'll suddenly get smart. (They'll probably just manage the company into the ground and then blame you for it.)

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Re:Da fuq? by tsa · 2013-12-04 09:29 · Score: 4, Insightful

He knows what his problem is. Why is your comment rated insightful?

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-- Cheers!

A union would be helpful in this situation by Goonie · 2013-12-04 09:30 · Score: 3, Insightful

While trade/labor unions are much maligned in the often libertarian-leaning IT community, this is the kind of situation where a bit of organization amongst colleagues - along the lines of what engineers or medical professionals have, would actually be useful.

But given that we have the IT professional community that we have:

Document that you've told your boss, and probably your boss's boss, and probably the legal department (perhaps informally and verbally initially). If you've told them, it's their problem, not yours
Start polishing your resume. Whistleblowing usually has negative consequences for the whistleblower - and, furthermore, continuing to work for an organization which has such a lax attitude to software poses a risk to your career if you stay there.

Incidentally, your case neatly demonstrates the near-uselessness of the IEEE-ACM Software Engineering Code of Ethics, which is very long on what the ethical obligations of a software engineer are, but has nothing useful to say about what you should do where others are ordering you to act unethically.

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Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo
--Andy Finkel (J. Klass?)

Think of it as banking overtime by SuperCharlie · 2013-12-04 09:31 · Score: 1

Sure send your notification emails and cya.. once that's done it's more a game of wait for the overtime, because when, and I mean when, it goes down it will be like Oprah came by with.. And overtime for you, and for you, and for you.. overtime for everyone until we fix this!!

Re:risky but very useful by PaddyM · 2013-12-04 09:32 · Score: 2

This is a terrible idea. I strongly oppose this approach.

Explain clearly how easy it is to breach by Beeftopia · 2013-12-04 09:32 · Score: 1

Step by step, so a non-technical type can understand just what the issue is. "Security" for some folks is a vague amorphous issue with no real consequence. I've been stunned by some of the malware and lack of security I've seen on people's computers. They don't "get it." They don't understand the risk and the damage.

Help your boss "get it" if that's the issue. Explain the consequences of a breach, and the damage to the brand. Show with other examples in the media.

My $0.02.

Document, do nothing by onyxruby · 2013-12-04 09:33 · Score: 3, Informative

Document the issues so that it is clear you are aware and tried to do something about them. Bring them up verbally to your boss - without being obnoxious about it. Once you've done those than you need to the hardest thing of all which is to let it go. If you make too big of a deal about it you will be seen as a troublemaker. If you do nothing you will be seen as complicit or incompetent if there is a violation.

Now in certain industries you may have requirements (possibly enforced by law) that require you do to more. Most of the time that isn't the case and you have to let it go and move on with other things. Often times disasters are the only way that people higher up the food chain can and will learn.

I recall when Nimda was making it's rounds in 2000. I was aware of the worm, had the patches downloaded, instructions printed and had requested permission to patch servers. Permission was denied. I asked again, it was denied again. I had awareness of the issue, my statement of the severity and denial all in writing.

I watched a fortune 25 company go down for 2 days and lose $100 million dollars and countless workers get sent home when their facilities were rendered useless. As a result an inflexible policy was changed and any number of people were fired or disciplined. Because I had documented everything I was just about the one person nobody faulted.

Re:Document, do nothing by david_thornley · 2013-12-06 06:43 · Score: 1

As far as legal liability goes, you should be able to get a short low-cost consultation with an attorney through the local Bar Association, or (since you're in a Fortune 500 company) possibly an Employee Assistance Plan. The time and money are likely to be well spent if you are worried you might be in legal trouble. Either you'll feel a lot better about your personal situation, or you'll know better what to do.

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"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes

Do the right thing by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-04 09:34 · Score: 1

#1: Document every security problem you find and rank them in severity as far as how much they'd hurt the business if they were exploited. Document steps to exploit them from the outside if you know how, or if only exploitable from the inside, document how that could be done too.
#2: Notify appropriate management of all these documented issues, particularly the ones most damaging to the business that would be easy to exploit from outside.
#3: Explain the consequences if the exploit occurs. It might not be a bad idea to find news stories of other organizations that have been compromised to show the fallout from such problems.
#4: Document steps to rectify the exploits if you know how to, in as much detail as you can and preferably with time estimates.
#5: If all of this falls on deaf ears, go higher up. Find another job before doing so (at least get an offer) if you believe you will receive backlash for going above management's head. Honestly if the management above your manager is competent, they will greatly appreciate your efforts.
#6: You can also publish this list to any communally-accessible location and send it to all the developers in your company who are creating software that has security holes or could have them. Knowledge is power and I doubt all your engineers know they're creating dangerous security problems.
#7: Do what you can with the code you control. Lock down and secure whatever is most important. Let the small problems slide if it means the big ones get plugged. This is why the severity ranking is important, to help you and others prioritize.
#8: You should also log all these issues as defects and assign them to the appropriate person/team as ship-stopping defects, so that the software CAN'T be released until they're fixed. At least, that's how it works in a healthy development shop (which it sounds like you're not part of at the present time).

Wild guess by hcs_$reboot · 2013-12-04 09:37 · Score: 1

Your company is Sony?

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Drop the dime by g0bshiTe · 2013-12-04 09:39 · Score: 1

If it's dealing with children and you are that concerned and management has done nothing to change it, blow the whistle on them.

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I am Bennett Haselton! I am Bennett Haselton!

Who is the business owner of the app? by macbeth66 · 2013-12-04 09:46 · Score: 1

You should include the business owner on your emails to your boss outlining what is wrong AND how to fix the problem. Include in the what is wrong part, why the app is vulnerable.

Since you state that you came into the migration towards the end of the process, state that you are just now understanding that these issues even exist.

Is it... by rhazz · 2013-12-04 09:46 · Score: 1

Webkinz?

Re:B'OH! by geminidomino · 2013-12-04 09:52 · Score: 3, Insightful

He said CC and he meant it. Part of the logic (he even said it explicitly) is that the boss sees "Oh crap, now all these other people in the company know what's going on, and will be watching to see what I do about it."

signs by DriveDog · 2013-12-04 09:52 · Score: 1

Difficult to imagine the powers that be caring much about application security if they're willing to outsource sysadmin duties. And yes, I know that's common. But that doesn't make it sensible from a risk management viewpoint.

On the technical side by Beryllium+Sphere(tm) · 2013-12-04 09:52 · Score: 1

So you've got a vulnerable web app that can't be fixed with new vulnerabilities being introduced all the time.

That's what web application firewalls are designed for. Installing one takes less schedule time than doing things right would take, and it might work better than nothing.

Though of course this is not a technical problem, it's easier to paper over a people problem with a technical patch than it is to fix people.

Escape! by Bugler412 · 2013-12-04 09:53 · Score: 1

Document the problems, report them up your chain appropriately and thoroughly, backup that documentation to personal storage resources to CYA and get out of there before the inevitable implosion happens. The management shakeup that will occur during and after the implosion will sweep away people regardless of who was aware of it and reporting it properly. The CYA is in case there are legal repercussions which draw you in,

or to put it another way by frovingslosh · 2013-12-04 09:55 · Score: 1, Interesting

Or to put it another way, nothing will get fixed as long as the software architect is as gutless as his management and just posts as an anonymous coward and helps conceal the problem. Sure, you don't have to commit carer suicide by saying "I'm the guy in the third office on the east wall and I've been reporting all of these problems to Bob but he just lets them slide, here's how to hack our toys", but you could put minimal effort into letting the problems slip out and help the public become aware of them. The hackers likely know about them anyway, management has decided that they don't care, as long as the public doesn't know. When the public knows they will become interested in fixing it.

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I'm an American. I love this country and the freedoms that we used to have.

Walk by Anonymous Coward · 2013-12-04 09:57 · Score: 1

I could literally walk into any internet cafe anywhere in the world and with a one line SQL injection attack put my last employer (also a well known publicly quoted company) out of business within 24 hours. I documented the attack, I documented several different ways to fix it. Senior management were not interested, they just wanted new features.

Walk. Get a new job before the ceiling caves in.

You don't want to apply for a job and have the hirer glance down your CV and see you worked for that corporation that just went so messily bankrupt.

Risk Cost Assessment by cryptomancer · 2013-12-04 09:57 · Score: 1

Probably the task furthest from experience as an engineer/architect, but when it's not enough to tell them (boss, executives, legal) that it's a "potentially bad thing," also include some dollar figures.

As a tangent, you should also always have the right to contact Legal without supervision. In this case, you could even tell that person in the legal department you're doing a risk-impact report (without lying) and need an estimate for how much it would cost for the company to legally defend or settle a class-action violation of those COPPA guidelines/regulations. Because that suddenly becomes the development budget for making sure everything is in compliance.

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Yes, we understand these tags always apply: fud, dupe, typo, slashdotted, topic name

Re:Risk Cost Assessment by LeadSongDog · 2013-12-04 10:38 · Score: 1

That's getting close. Talk to your auditors too. Let them figure out what the liability is, and they'll persuade the board to take action. Meanwhile, get your incident response plan ready. Once the intrusions start, you'll have a lot of people breathing down your neck looking to know how to respond.
Insert obligatory "Think of the children!!!!" where needed.

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Oh, I'm sorry sir, I thought you were referring to me, Mr. Wensleydale.

Re:risky but very useful by Nefarious+Wheel · 2013-12-04 10:15 · Score: 1

That will be a truly great conversation starter in prison.

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Do not mock my vision of impractical footwear

Re:B'OH! by danomac · 2013-12-04 10:15 · Score: 1

Here I thought we was using his Credit Card.

Ombudsman. by luciano.moretti · 2013-12-04 10:20 · Score: 1

You're at a Fortune 500 company.

Document issues, why they are regulatory violations, document that your raised them to your boss and got pushback (agree with the "offsite hardcopy" backup).
Then call the Ombudsman and raise the concern to them. That's what they are there for- Issues where the company itself could be screwed by individuals trying to make numbers any way possible.

Read this study and make your own analogy by paiute · 2013-12-04 10:30 · Score: 1

http://www.newsday.com/news/health/gut-feelings-might-be-best-predictors-of-marital-bliss-1.6512381

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Tell infosec. by HockeyPuck · 2013-12-04 10:31 · Score: 1

Surely there's a infosec or security group at your company. Let them know. Otherwise, fire a note to your boss and cc'd your second level manager.

Don't have the email be one where you are blaming your boss, but if the security issues are beyond your manager's command and control span, then it's probably under your next level manager/director. Something as simple as "I've noticed some odd security practices taking place within the application... what group is responsible for setting the methodology...?"

Sounds harmless but gets the point across.

Re:Tell infosec. by Ol+Olsoc · 2013-12-04 14:29 · Score: 1

Surely there's a infosec or security group at your company. Let them know. Otherwise, fire a note to your boss and cc'd your second level manager.
Then pack your bags.

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The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.

Accept it, fight it, or leave. by smylingsam · 2013-12-04 10:40 · Score: 1

Others have mentioned the need to cover your assets I suggest doing so then consider what useful options you have. Please don't use the below list until your exposure is minimized by documentation and strategic copies showing your knew and reported the problem. Cover your assets !

1) Your skill-set is very valuable, if you don't want or care for a messy fight engage a recruiter and start a job search. Use the exit interview to vent. Feel free to take your favorite coworkers with you -done carefully no one need know you pouched them. IF they like you possess ethics and morals your company may thank you for removing such troublemakers!
2) If you want to make this right, prepare your documentation. Call your internal ethics hotline. Pitch this as serious risk the company faces. Upfront cost vs a very embarrassing civil or criminal investigation. If the ethics line fails you consider locating a Board chairman - someone with enough stock in the game to have the power to protect you, then prepare a overview of your concerns and meet with them. Done with respect and discretion you may not only survive but flourish . But the key is to stay inside the corporate process.
2a) Take a subset of your concerns - the most likely items to be exploited and take those issues , prioritize their cost to implement vs amount of vulnerabilities it will close. The easiest to code that has the highest impact should be number 1, etc.
3) Accept the harsh lesson - security does not matter in most cases. never has, never will. Too much security increases costs, reduces flexibility, makes deadlines slip.

I've ignored nuclear options - ratting your company out never ever ends well. Witnesses, whistle blowers have little protections and the world is awash in talented Senior Architects working at tech support firms for us$30k per year.

Good luck!

memo by Spazmania · 2013-12-04 10:52 · Score: 1

I didn't "lose" the job any more than I "lose" a defective computer when I throw it in the trash. Indeed it would be very hard to consider it a loss when six months later I was earning $10k more per year.

Nor did I put myself in any legal jeopardy. I'll spare you the lengthy analysis.

Best way to handle the problem? Burning bridges rarely is. But sometimes it has a moral righteousness that's hard to defy.

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Moderating "-1, Disagree" is simple censorship. Have the guts to post your opinion.

Re:B'OH! by TapeCutter · 2013-12-04 11:01 · Score: 5, Insightful

This isn't a Dr. Evil plot, the boss isn't hiding anything from anyone, the boss simply believes other things are more important than a secure web site. "Web sites are cheap but a secure one is expensive" - is probably closer to the level of thought running through the boss' head. Programmers are not automatically "right" every time the say something needs doing. The boss in TFA probably sees the programmer as a loyal employee who's concerned about the quality of his work but is blowing the problem out of proportion.

It's a hard life lesson for geeks to learn that "correct" is not sufficient evidence to convince others to follow your lead in the real world. Of course you should cover your arse, but if that is your only motivation then your no better than the DR. Evil you describe in your post. If you turn the issue into a battle of wills, or a gotcha moment, then you will more than likely lose the argument and it will become more difficult to raise the subject in the future. Nobody benefits from that, least of all the programmer.

OTOH arseholes do exist and if you have one as a boss in a small to medium sized business there is little you can do about it other than to walk out. Don't think of it as quitting, think of it as sacking the boss.

Disclaimer: Developer with 20+yrs experience, computers are easy, people are difficult.

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And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.

Ideal vs. preponderance, do print with all headers by raymorris · 2013-12-04 11:02 · Score: 1

Ideally, one would backup the entire mail store, take a hash, document the whole process in detail, and quickly get a read-only copy on CD to a trusted third party such as an attorney.

More likely, it won't be a problem. A civil case is decided by the preponderance of the evidence - which ever appears most likely. If you have a copy and they don't show a copy of a different version, it's most likely your copy is correct. Of course that depends on which side seems more trustworthy - judges and juries, like all people, have a feel for who is lying to them.

The other side can either a) claim you edited the messages, which they know because "here's the original copy" or b) claim the conversation never happened. If they do a), they'd need to falsify evidence themselves. Any party who goes to the extreme of creating false evidence will probably out themselves as full of BS somewhere along the line. They may well say "I didn't read that email", at which point you pull out their reply. Wham, you've just proven they are being untruthful.

Re:Legal and Compliance by Teun · 2013-12-04 11:03 · Score: 2

Exactly, if this really is an F500 company they must have such, even more so if they also work in Europe.

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"The likes of Facebook and WhatsApp are free to those whose privacy is of zero value."

Bring boss facts and a tech recommendation, don't by raymorris · 2013-12-04 11:13 · Score: 5, Insightful

I would extend that to say don't ever tell the boss what they need to do in a way that implies they don't know how to do their own job. That can be tricky if you are recommending that they reverse their own decision. Don't "act like you're smarter than the boss".

What has worked for me and people working for me is to bring facts along with a "from a programmer's perspective this option looks attractive" recommendation. Change "programmer's perspective" to whatever is appropriate. For many years I did IT security. CxOs would sometimes ask "should we do this" or "what should we do". I try to remember to answer "that's a business decision that's up to you, but FROM A SECURITY PERSPECTIVE ...".

The idea is to recognize and explicitly state that you are looking at it from a specialist's perspective, focusing mostly on one aspect of it. What you don't know, but the boss may know, as if they are planning on scrapping the entire project next month anyway. I can't tell the boss that we should upgrade X, because as far as I know the entire division that uses X may be getting laid off tomorrow. What I can tell the boss that that an upgrade to X would provide benefits Y and Z, at a cost of A.

Sell that shit by Ryanrule · 2013-12-04 11:37 · Score: 1

Sell that shit.

Also, FUCKING Name Names.

Contact Ethics line, Internal audit, or Corp legal by walmass · 2013-12-04 11:46 · Score: 2

Fortune 500? Publicly traded company?

Then there is an code of ethics violation reporting mechanism. Contact them, contact internal audit, or contact corporate legal.

Reporting to the code of ethics violation provides you the strongest protection, because there is a stated policy that you cannot be retaliated against (still no guarantee that you will not be, just that it will help you in the subsequent multi-million dollar lawsuit you can bring). Make sure you mention the violation of COPPA and ask THEM to contact corp legal.

Also understand that you will not be seen as a hero. You will be branded as a troublemaker, so better be ready to switch jobs.

(Yes, I have been in a very similar position)

PS: I see some advice about documenting your interaction with the manager for the time when the shit hits the fan. Trust me, will not help you a whit if it came to that.

Quit by BringsApples · 2013-12-04 11:54 · Score: 1

I had basically the same situation at my last job. I fought it for years, talk about 'working on your nerves'. Anyway, I finally quit. After that they got some other guy to take my position, and he quit 3 weeks later. They eventually had to restructure the company, but did so in a way to keep the stupidity that caused us to quit. They're a failing company now, and I've moved on. Now I'm self-employed and am able to pay my bills. Aside from being able to sustain my life with money, I'm also able to sustain my sanity, and I'm a lot better to be around now, I hear.

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Politics; n. : A religion whereby man is god.

Ask Legal for what compliance means by Sir_Sri · 2013-12-04 12:03 · Score: 1

Lots of what other people have said is good.

Approach legal and tell them about our many violations of COPPA?

Ask legal what framework you should be working under, and what laws and compliance are going to be required as part of doing your job. You aren't really sure what your personal obligations are in this regard, because you understand that there are regulations but you aren't sure who is responsible for implementing what exactly, and you've gotten conflicting or confused responses from your superiors.

Who is 'itself' by fisted · 2013-12-04 12:05 · Score: 1

... and why is he annoyed when someone tells someone else about him?

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CLI paste? paste.pr0.tips!

What woudl I do? by koan · 2013-12-04 12:05 · Score: 1

I would email the bosses involved, advise them of the security issues, turn in my one month notice, go to a hackers forum, give them all the information, wait until the site is hacked (oddly enough just shortly before my one month is up) and when they come crying to me to save them I'll say "I already have another offer since I quit".
Then tell them I'll take double my old salary to be rehired, and tell them how lucky they are to have me.

Yes... I'm joking.

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"If any question why we died, Tell them because our fathers lied."

What is the risk level? by TomGreenhaw · 2013-12-04 12:07 · Score: 1

Is there personal health information (HIPPA/HITECH), or credit card information (PCI) at risk? If so get another job immediately and if personal circumstances permit, give notice immediately. This may be also advisable if you have information about specific minors.

If the above is not the case, the company's reputation is at stake and the millions that would be spent on PR firms to patch a PR mess should be forestalled. Tell the boss that a little CYA may not be a big deal. Take a look at Nessus, Metasploit and WireShark. Use the free trials if you have to. A pro will put in some extra hours to learn these tools. This should readily uncover the egregious risks.

Today anybody who doesn't make reasonable efforts to bake security into their code should be held accountable. Since you've outsourced the work, the vendor should stand behind their work. They are likely obliged to under their master services agreement - but don't wait too long.

Don't you have a Chief Security Officer or an information security policy? Discreetly tell those kind of guys your concerns and I bet you get action, especially if you have some reports from the scanning programs I mentioned.

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Greed is the root of all evil.

One suggestion by jonwil · 2013-12-04 13:25 · Score: 2

Assuming the website really violates COPPA, Google "COPPA violations" and grab some links to articles showing where the FTC sued over such violations and got big settlements. Then email those links to the boss (keeping copies of all this as others have suggested) and say something like "these guys got sued by the FTC and had to pay some big $, do you want to see our company get sued?"

If the boss takes an "I dont care" attitude or ignores the emails, go to the legal department or compliance officers with the same thing and say "I pushed this to my superiors and they chose to ignore it, I dont want to see our company held liable by the FTC, what should I do about it?"

If that doesn't work, consider packing up and leaving. Any company where the legal department doesn't care that the company is violating such a law and is one tip-off away from an FTC investigation (which could be a PR nightmare especially for a site that targets kids specifically) isn't a good company to work for.

I'd leave Microsoft by TheGoodNamesWereGone · 2013-12-04 13:41 · Score: 5, Funny

I'd leave Microsoft and get another job

Re:Put it in writing by DuckDodgers · 2013-12-04 13:45 · Score: 1

Going around your boss to their boss only makes sense if you have enough solid evidence to get your boss fired. Otherwise, you just took any pretense of a professional or even congenial relationship out back and shot it in the head.

If you're going to report the problems to your boss's boss, I would do it after you resigned - and make sure to include a clear declaration that you are not going to disclose the problems to any third party.

Raise bug by SergeDupuis · 2013-12-04 14:09 · Score: 1

Blow the whistle and move to russia

Document, hire friendly hacker by manu0601 · 2013-12-04 14:24 · Score: 1

Document the vulnerabilities and the impossibility to fix them so that nobody can tell you did not make your job. Then hire a friendly hacker to break the product without doing any harm beyond shame. And never tell anyone you did that!

Blow the whistle by drakesword · 2013-12-04 14:54 · Score: 1

then run to russia

There's no one over your boss' head by Gothmolly · 2013-12-04 15:30 · Score: 1

When your boss is the President. We all know what application you're talking about.

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Re:Bring boss facts and a tech recommendation, don by mysidia · 2013-12-04 17:04 · Score: 1

CxOs would sometimes ask "should we do this" or "what should we do". I try to remember to answer "that's a business decision that's up to you, but FROM A SECURITY PERSPECTIVE ...".

Too wordy.... "We would recommend X, because Y and Z."

A true security professional is not going to look on everything, purely from a perspective of maximizing technical security -- they will be concerned about the whole Risk management / Usability tradeoff thing.

....as I know the entire division that uses X may be getting laid off tomorrow.

That's what is called pertinent critical information; that you had to know to make a reasonable recommendation in the first place.

Obviously, you have to be informed about such known/planned things to make reasonable recommendations about anything they may affect.

Horrible truth by EmperorOfCanada · 2013-12-04 17:59 · Score: 1

I have seen leaked code from many very successful products. Typically it is shoddy and full of security holes (hence why it was public) yet the companies behind it were and generally are doing quite well. Personally I am a fussy about making my products solid and secure; but I hate to say it but quick and dirty makes for a better business model.

So as many people have advised, document your worries, but even better find the various security problems and come up with a solid recovery plan. Then when the day comes and things go to hell you will be able to save the day. The only thing to do with your documents is not to play the blame game ( you will lose to some MBA asshole who will take you out before you can do any damage to his career) but to be able to show the MBA looking for a scapegoat that you aren't going to be easy prey and for them to find some other person to blame.

So in the end you will be a hero, not a scapegoat, and will have all the resources to fix everything for a while at least. What you will never be is vindicated.

Re:Horrible truth by Pherdnut · 2013-12-09 19:50 · Score: 1

It's never quicker. It's just stupider. Success at buying congressmen to steamroll all opposition and obstacles for you doesn't equate to a smart product.
Re:Horrible truth by EmperorOfCanada · 2013-12-10 01:47 · Score: 1

By better I meant more money. Many of the top websites out there have done emergency rewrites a their weak code failed under load. But I suspect that if they had carefully crafted their code "properly" from the start they would have been late to market, run out of money, or culled critical(to their success) features to meet various deadlines. The damn the torpedoes approach might not appeal to the craftsmen in many of us but if you simply use the score of how many dollars it generates then poor code has a horrible habit of scoring quite well.
Re:Horrible truth by Pherdnut · 2013-12-10 03:27 · Score: 1

Maybe I've just never been on anything huge enough but I just don't see how cutting corners on security saves you a lot of time for the actual code-writing part of it. It might save you time on talent acquisition or vetting third party stuff, I suppose.
Re:Horrible truth by EmperorOfCanada · 2013-12-10 15:02 · Score: 1

I think the physical world version is when developers build crap houses during a housing boom. Leaky roofs, crap foundations, cheap hardware, shoddy workmanship, often even crossing the line into bribing building inspectors to allow even legal corners to be cut. But in the hysteria of the boom the shoddy developer will make far far far more money than the craftsmen. The price for this crap workmanship is often only paid during the downturn when the people who bought the crap houses have a very hard time maintaining them and selling them.

So it all depends on the timing and this is where fast and shoddy is potentially an asset. If you realize what the market needs right this second and produce it right this second then you will start to scoop customers by the boatload. Then (unlike houses) you can go back and rebuild properly. I have heard that the programmers at Google complain about the crap original code that the founders did. The Twitter code was crappy ruby and then replaced. I suspect that even things like Youtube was crap but then replaced. Reddit was done in lisp and then replaced in something like 24 hours in python.

But if your product is not all about timing, say building an upgraded POS(point of sale, not piece of sh..) system for a store then craftsmanship should probably be rule one.

You're screwed by shentino · 2013-12-04 18:05 · Score: 1

If you give notice and leave you'll get branded a quitter. If you speak up to anyone you'll get branded a troublemaker.

Can you personally be held liable for anything? If so, then jump ship before it sinks with you on it.

Chances are you're already screwed no matter what.

The right way by Confused · 2013-12-04 20:19 · Score: 1

Work the system and treat the boss just like you would handle a system bug or limitation.

Step 1: Get it into your official procedure, to do some kind of acceptance test or quality checks for software delivered by 3rd parties. This can often be done innocently and disguised as a formality.

Step 2: Improve the acceptance test procedure so that the pieces of garbage with security holes will fail Here, make sure the improved tests become official and rubber stamped.

Step 3: When at delivery the tests fail, raise a critical ticket with the delivering company. This works best if you managed in step 2 to make the test part of the acceptance. Now people will start to feel the pain, because a failed acceptance and a piece of software marked as "Not Ready for Deployment" will have commercial impacts. People will curse and try to force it through.

Step 4: While the shit is flying your way, make sure you stay reasonable, helpful and stick very closely to the official company procedures. Get acquainted with the QC department and ISO-whatever proceedings. Don't be controversial, never bad-mouth anyone. At the same time, document your cases, print out the mails where people attach your message to their replies.

Step 5: The software will be rolled out no matter what you said, but now you have a proper documentation of how your boss and the marketing department bend and break the holy official rules nobody want to keep.

Step 6: Various outcomes
a: People in marketing hate your guts now and avoid you as much as they can because you're branded as difficult. Problem solved for you.
b: They want you to do it again next month. Some chances are that the delivering organisation learned that releases are smoother if the software doesn't fail the test devised by that crazy lunatic in software engineering (this means you). A slow increase of security will ensure.

Step 7: Somewhere down the road there's a big chance the company will get into troubles because of their faulty software. Make sure, the people investigating that get access to your documentation.

Re:Bring boss facts and a tech recommendation, don by BACbKA · 2013-12-04 22:27 · Score: 1

answer "that's a business decision that's up to you, but FROM A SECURITY PERSPECTIVE ..."

I don't know what the OP's particular situation is wrt business perspective --- could it be that the bosses actually are looking at a tradeoff "ship now with internally known security problems, or try to fix them and not ship at all, and fail as a business"? If this is the case, one should probably think how to gradually integrate better security in long-term. Certainly, if there is a criminal negligence going on, then the "ship with known problems" is not an option! It is very easy to over-hype security, but remember that, in the end, it's all down to business bottom line. If you have a supermarket chain with some casual shoplifting happening, sometimes you want to invest $$$ not into more security guards and anti-theft tech that frustrates the customers, but into everything else --- maybe opening a couple of more locations --- and in the end turning more profit from the same investment.

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VKh

Re:Put it in writing by gnasher719 · 2013-12-04 22:32 · Score: 1

Going around your boss to their boss only makes sense if you have enough solid evidence to get your boss fired. Otherwise, you just took any pretense of a professional or even congenial relationship out back and shot it in the head.

Not necessarily. Your point should be that (a) you have security concerns, (b) your boss has a lot of concerns that he must juggle and his decision is right, (c) you feel of course that it is a shame that security concerns are not addressed, but you fully support your bosses decision. Your bosses boss has his own list of concerns. And he might then think that a website with security concerns is actually _not_ a good idea. So he disagrees with your assessment that your boss is right, he disagrees with your boss, and tells your boss to address these concerns.

Techleaks by Z00L00K · 2013-12-04 23:16 · Score: 1

Here in Sweden we have a service called "Techleaks" (https://www.techleaks.se/sa-kontaktar-du-oss-via-techleaks.html), use Google Translate to get another language if needed.

This seems to be a way if nobody in top management listens.

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If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker would destroy civilization.

Complaints Department by nine-times · 2013-12-05 00:35 · Score: 1

I don't know what the structure of your company is, but many of the larger companies i've worked for has had some kind of 'complaints department', although that was never what it was called. In one company, if you saw something bad happened, you went to the CEO's assistant. In another company, it was the head of HR. I don't think any of this was officially stated, but people generally knew, if you're having a serious problem, this is person is the release valve. It's the person who you go to and say, "I don't want to go over my boss's head, but...," or "I don't know who to talk to about this, but..."

In a big bureaucratic company, they should have some person, or some kind of mechanism, for complaints about your own boss that isn't breaking the chain of command. They might not be able to fix the problem, but they might be able to give you advice on what to do, from the perspective of someone who knows your company.

Would Marketing like a front page breach story? by essbase_nerd · 2013-12-05 02:20 · Score: 1

Show marketing a few high profile breach stories, tell them that you won't be surprised if you're next. They probably aren't aware of the risk, and will re-prioritize initiatives if you educate them.

Re:risky but very useful by fluffythedestroyer · 2013-12-05 02:25 · Score: 1

Not really as the people who takes decisions ignored it. the workers under did say and did everything he could. That person has nothing to do with it... besides, you can call it a prank as everything would be a maskarade..if you read my post carefully

It's not just CYA... by hey! · 2013-12-05 02:29 · Score: 1

it's a question of professional ethics.

That's what makes this tricky. From the point of view of professional ethics, avoiding harm to the users is paramount. But some of the things that are justified by professional ethics can be bad for your career, like going around your boss's back to your boss's boss. Depending on the corporate culture and how old you are, it could be a career ending move. If you're under 30 and obviously have marketable skills, go for it. If you're over 40 and have a family to support, you want to bring your spouse in on the decision. In fact you probably want a lawyer too.

From a pure CYA standpoint, documenting everything but not rocking the boat might well be the safest position to take *for you personally*. It may be very bad for your company and your product's users.

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Re:It's not just CYA... by Cederic · 2013-12-05 04:58 · Score: 1

I could draw in my professional body too.
Hell, I've committed to maintaining professional ethics as part of my professional accreditation. I had no hesitation, it needed no change in attitude from me.
I'm just better at the diplomacy on these issues than I used to be :)

Read receipts? by antdude · 2013-12-05 03:56 · Score: 1

Read receipts? Most e-mail (service/host)s and users disable this feature due to prviacy reasons.

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Re:Self-Righteous by Cederic · 2013-12-05 05:19 · Score: 1

It's interesting that you're trusting that the manager's assessment is accurate, but the expert's assessment is self-righteousness.

This will be why most of the responses on here are recommending getting additional opinions, primarily from the people employed by the company to assess legal/compliance risks and the appropriate responses to them.

The question isn't saying, "my manager is wrong, she's acting like a cock", the question is saying, "I disagree with my manager about the severity of these issues. How do I assure that these issues are not putting the company (and me) into jeopardy?"

That's not self righteous, that's professional.

Document... and store offsite by whitroth · 2013-12-05 06:06 · Score: 1

As others have said, save all copies of email between you and your boss informing them of the flaws. Make sure all future emails are return receipt requested. Print them out. Take copies home... and then buy a safety vault in a bank, nothing less, and store them there. That way, they can't be made to disappear so easily.

Yes, I knew someone who lost their federal job, and the documentation at home disappeared.

mark

Re:Put it in writing by DuckDodgers · 2013-12-05 06:46 · Score: 1

In my experience, bosses that do a very bad job estimating a proper investment in security also tend to react poorly when they perceive their judgment as threatened.

Re:Put it in writing by DuckDodgers · 2013-12-05 06:55 · Score: 1

I don't mean that you would get fired for it, I mean that there's a fair chance your boss will be embarrassed that his or her superior got the message. Then your boss may not do anything openly bad to you, but take every little opportunity to make your life at the company unpleasant. You might get poorer performance reviews than your work deserves, or find your requests for equipment denied without explanation and then later be blamed for productivity problems you have due to lack of that equipment, or get stuck with all of the least interesting jobs, etc...

A resilient person, whether they're a manager or not, can accept criticism of their decisions and challenges to their decisions with an open mind and humility. They won't take the challenge to their judgement personally, and will instead try to examine the counter argument to make sure there are no factors they overlooked or weighted inappropriately. In my experience, resilient people are uncommon and resilient managers are especially rare (probably because being a manager adds stress). If you find yourself opposed to your manager on something with ethical implications or serious business implications, and you meet the manager in private to express your concerns and are still ignored, my suggestion is to leave.

Create a fake social media account by Marxist+Hacker+42 · 2013-12-05 07:04 · Score: 1

And then from a Starbucks, using their wifi, post a meme picture saying that "X website has no security- don't use a critical password or personally identifying information for your kids unless you want them kidnapped by a sex abuser" on the App's facebook page.

Never own up to starting the meme, but watch things change VERY quickly.

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SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.

Re:B'OH! by Tablizer · 2013-12-05 09:58 · Score: 1

computers are easy, people are difficult.

I would instead say that computers are predictable, people are not.

Making a web front-end work like a desktop GUI *is* difficult if we target many browser versions. However, we have a general idea of how long doing such well would take. A "difficult" person on the other hand can be very difficult to predict and communicate with, making life too unpredictable.

True, a desktop metaphor may not be appropriate or economical for a given organization, and convincing the boss or customer of that may require some solid people skills. It's two factors intertwining: technical issues (UI) and people issues (expectations of UI). They both can be difficult, but the second is less predictable.

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