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Gov't Puts Witness On No Fly List, Then Denies Having Done So
cathyreisenwitz sends word of a San Francisco trial in which the U.S. government appears to be manipulating the no-fly list to its advantage. The court case involves a Stanford Ph.D. student who was barred from returning to the U.S. after visiting her native Malaysia. She's one of roughly 700,000 people on the no-fly list. Here's the sketchy part: the woman's eldest daughter, who was born in the U.S. and is a U.S. citizen, was called as a witness for the trial. Unfortunately, she mysteriously found herself on the no-fly list as well, and wasn't able to board a plane to come to the trial. Lawyers for the Department of Justice told the court that she simply missed her plane, but she was able to provide documents from the airline explaining that the Department of Homeland Security was not allowing her to fly.
You are no longer free to move about the country.
The defense should have a field day with this. If the past is any indicator, the judge is going to tell the DOJ to EABOD.
Flying is a privilege, not a right. She can just drive to court.
It's not like we don't have interstate highways in every state in the union.
Clear substantive and procedural due process violations at work here. Hope she has the ACLU on speed dial!
Judge presiding over this case - William Alsup. The one who threw away Oracle Java APIs lawsuit agains Google.
Evidence provided by a blog. The most reliable kind.
I suspect this could be true, but a random blog post really is not "evidence".
If you want news from today, you have to come back tomorrow.
//queue scene from Casablanca
//end scene
I'm SHOCKED! There's gambling going on here!
Seems the left hand does, or does not know, what the right hand is doing in this case.
Anyone else getting really tired of the US Gov. in general? Wah wah at least it didn't happen to me... right?
In all seriousness, I'd like to do something about it, more than write my congressman and senator. But what's left? It's not apathy I'm feeling anymore. It's disgust and resentment.
Oh. I know. WAIT, WAIT!!! Isolated incident.... /sorry, venting... just had a job interview
Too much of this BS going on these days to be merely negligence , ignorance and incompetence.
Yeah, the NSA would never abuse all that personal data it's hovering up.
the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
Don't get out your popcorn just yet. From the article:
But Judge Alsup noted that the document with the DHS instructions to the airline was not supported by any sworn testimony or evidence of its authenticity. “You have to have a sworn record before I can do something dramatic.” Judge Alsup said he would consider the document if and when Ms. Mustafa Kamal arrives in San Francisco and can testify as to its authenticity.
Ms. Pipkin said that Ms. Mustafa Kamal was reluctant to spend the money on another airline ticket to San Francisco without some assurance that this time she would be allowed to board her flight.
“Get her on an airplane and get her here,” Judge Alsup responded. “She’s a U.S. citizen. She doesn’t need a visa. I’m not going to believe that she can’t get on a plane until she tries again. ” And Mr Freeborne, with disingenuous faux-solicitude, claimed that the government is “willing to do whatever we can to facilitate” Ms. Mustafa Kamal’s ability to board a flight to the U.S.
Flying is a privilege, not a right. She can just drive to court.
It's not like we don't have interstate highways in every state in the union.
For those who hadn't noticed, I'm referring to an INTERstate road on an island, while also parodying a government legal rationalization and general ignorance of geography and logic by the US.
For those who still can't figure it out... yes, it's humor.
For those who did figure it out... check out all the people here who couldn't figure this out!
We have all learned to our chagrin that this is what has become of the rule of law in our day and age. There is no law, there are no rules. The Constitution no longer applies. There is only rule by fiat. That's a very shaky basis for a society. It will not end well for those promulgating this state of affairs. There are hundreds of millions more of us than there are of them, and we are heavily armed and educated. Everything we need to track down and hang the 1%.
Chew and digest.
Do what you can, with what you have, where you are.
As if we needed yet another reminder, this shows us in all sorts of ways how bad big government really is. Either they abused the list to keep a witness out, or they really COULDN'T tell she was on the list which means the list is an utter unmanageable clusterfuck.
Either way this is the result when government is allowed to grow too large and too powerful, abuse and mismanagement grow exponentially. Remember this come any election, always vote for the guy that wants to give you less, not more.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Flying is a privilege, not a right.
Fuck you and die asshole!
Fuck you.
just ... fuck you.
What are laws but the playthings of the rich and powerful to be used and discarded at will? They're like a blanket in a blizzard: designed to keep you warm, but when the storm strikes, utterly useless.
until a "reactionary" Replublican Administration gets the White House.
The things they will do will make Obama look like the practice squad.
... I would have called this a fringe conspiracy theory.
Now I call it the new normal.
He's easily one of the (if not THE) best sitting judge in the country.
.: Semper Absurda
Imagine this sequence of events:
1. A perfectly legal subpoena is issued for someone to appear as a witness, while they're a plane's flight away from home.
2. Put witness on no-fly list.
3. Cite witness for contempt of court for failing to appear.
Boom, you now have a tool for the intelligence community, with the help of a friendly (or blackmailed) judge to put anyone away they like, for any reason they like, at least for a little while. And sure, the contempt citation would eventually be reversed on appeal due to the obvious entrapment issue (the government caused the witness to fail to appear due to its own actions), but by then whoever was targeted has already had their life thoroughly screwed up.
I am officially gone from
What are they teaching lawyers these days? That it's OK to commit perjury? Who wants to see the lying lawyers spend some time in jail? Raise your hand.
CUR ALLOC 20195.....5804M
i heard the ocean is wet cars are heavy and you might drown driving a car from malyasia to the usa
I really have to congratulate you. Reading the long string of replies from idiots who didn't follow the link and/or get the joke is hilarious.
It's like I touched the third rail of the internet. I am astonished.
Getting harder to tell them apart these days.
Stop being cruel and heartless. Once enough people become angry it can only lead to a future that makes 2013 Detroit make like Disneyland. We need you to show some compassion where and when possible to all people, not just those that contribute to your campaign funds and then give you 10 figure jobs later in life.
In other words, stop acting like a dick. Pretty please.
This is not a quibble, but a point which is largely disregarded: the issue is not the top 1%, but the top 0.1%. The wealth disparity in the USA is so vast, so nonlinear, that the people in the top 0.1% are in a totally different league than everyone else.
Well you have reached a relatively sharp but small demographic. Let's try to get this on the "consumer media." (I am creating new words which better describe what they are. Mainstream media just doesn't describe them any longer as they are losing their relevance for so many. But they still remain the consumer media as they still control the minds of so many consumers out there.)
Simple:
Jail time - give prosecutor what he would have ask for jail time for student.
Track down at least 5 more people involved in this conspiracy.
One of 5 must be a very significant political person (read Administration/Senator/etc),
and 2 of 5 mid-level manager level conspirators, and 1 of 5 a low-level person (IT person or such.)
Send the message high and low - all will get hurt for this sh-t!
Works even better when you disbar them, and permanently fire them from govt service and remove their pension...
first : information collection then systematic harassment of anyone not like them or paying them off.
I couldn't find "Zoe vs. Williams" in the 1982 registry. "Zobel vs..." is something about Alaska mineral resource dividends.
Were you thinking of a different case?
Because Big Corporation is better?
Q: Which cut of Brazil does the Netflix stream (no I don't have a netflix account)? Hopefully not the atrocious "Love Conquers All" version...
Nothing is confirmed until it has been denied!
HOW do I find out if I am on the no fly list PRIOR to attempting to even book a flight?
IS that even possible?
OR is it so super top-secret eyes only yada yada yada ...
All your rights are free, but you're not permitted to have either Rights or Freedoms.
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
How many innocents are you willing to kill in the name of your revolution? At what pre-determined point does the blood flow stop? And is there forgiveness for your enemies, and leniency available? Or are you simply going to kill anyone who is the enemy, extend that to any who don't agree with you, and stop only when there's no one left to shoot at?
Here's to hot beer, cold women, and Glaswegian kisses for all.
Hurry up Slashtards, explain how it would be a utopia here in these united states if only the government had unlimited power.
False dichotomy much?
I've once read an article by a guy who managed to escape a dictatorship
I escaped from the dictatorship of the CCP, I have experienced dictatorship first hand.
I do not like what the government of the United States is doing, but in this case, we gotta look WHAT IS ACTUALLY HAPPENING
That plaintiff, Dr. Rahimah Ibrahim, from Malaysia, is a SUPPORTER of a racist and fascist regime of Malaysia.
She is an avid supporter of UMNO - a RACIST ORGANIZATION which is still practicing APARTHEID in the country that it rules over (Malaysia, in this case).
UMNO is also an Islamic organization that actively supports GLOBAL ISLAMIC TERRORISM.
Through the support of UMNO, the jihadists in the southern Thailand and in southern Philippines got their training inside Malaysia.
It was the Malaysian army which taught those jihadists the bomb making techniques, and taught them how to carry out terrorist attacks.
For that purpose, UMNO actually set up a secret military base inside the thick jungle in Borneo and many batches of terrorists were trained.
UMNO not only provide training to those jihadist terrorists but also provide monetary / intelligent support, as well as supply them with weapons and explosives.
All these have already been very well documented by many parties, including the United Nations.
In other words, the "victim" in this case isn't as "innocent" as she claims to be.
She is an active player in an organization which supports the global jihadist movement.
I do not know why the US government puts her on the no-fly-list, but that Dr. Rahimah Ibrahim certainly isn't an innocent party to begin with.
Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
I cannot wait until government puts a congressman on the no fly list to prevent him from voting..
CAPTCHA: 'pupils'
FUCK YOU.
Shoes for Industry. Shoes for the Dead.
Alsup! Everything.
My God can beat up your God. Just kidding...don't take offense. I know there's no God.
I have a feeling that anyone in this case could be either outright lying, or bending the truth. I can't shake the feeling that if Ms Kamal is bending the truth a little here, things will explode quite badly. BUT if it turns out that there is a conspiracy to block her flight then I hope Judge Alsup tears the DHS a new one over it. Even if nobody is bending the truth, and it's either a case of mistaken identity when checking against the no-fly list, or there's another system failure, someone will be getting in a lot of troble for interfering with this trial (if only because the trial about this system, and the system failed to pass a witness to the trial)
Big Government has morphed into little government and The State. The government is supposed to do the peoples' business. The State has it's own agenda and factions within the State use legitimate government functions to further their aims. And some are just megalomaniacs. Come the revolution I'm going to be on the front lines. Life's going to be hell when the money stops. I'm old and tired, I wont last long without my modern conveniences anyway.
That niggling feeling that anyone could be lying
You're simply sensing the Matrix all around you.
Unfortunately, nobody can be told what the Matrix is.
Hang on, Dorothy.
Because Kansas...is going bye-bye.
Strat
Progressivism (aka US 'Liberalism'): Ideas so good they need a police/surveillance-state to enforce.
It's possible that this is genuine incompetence rather than malice. Mustafa and Kamal are certainly common names in Arabic. Not so sure about Rainan, but I could imagine in those 700,000 names someone does have a similar name.
We have always been at war with Easta^H^H^H^H^HMalaysia.
No left turn unstoned.
Secret lists
Secret evidence
Secret trials
Secret detention
Secret executions
I think part of the problem here is that this kind of 'ends justify the means' behavior has it backwards. With the justice system, it really is about 'the means justify the ends'. If there is no due process, or the due process is impeded by one of the parties involved in the court case, how can we believe that the outcome is what it should have been (with some tolerance for error, of course... =P).
FTFS: about 700,000 people on that list.
That's about one in every 10,000 people on this planet.
And with every person on the list likely multiple people that share their name (having a similar name to someone on that list is enough to be affected!), possibly even the same name and date of birth, plus the fact that only a minor fraction of the world even has access to planes for economical reasons, I wouldn't be surprised if this list by now affects about one in every 1,000 airplane passengers that want to fly to the US, or within the US, in one way or another. And it's growing, rapidly.
By far most of these people haven't done anything wrong - save a few they probably have never even been convicted of a crime, in a US court or otherwise. They've just been flagged for primarily political reasons (resentment against the US), and put on that list.
Rahinah / Rahimah all don't matter.
In Malaysia, spelling is not important.
There is a town just north of Singapore. It was spelled "Johor Baharu" some years ago, then they changed it to "Johor Baru" and then they changed it again to "Johor Bahru".
Them Malays (which the "Rahinah/Rahimah" creature is one) can never make up their mind how to spell properly.
Read the comments on this page
http://www.malaysia-chronicle.com/index.php?option=com_k2&view=item&id=196021:upm-woman-professor-on-us-terror-list-due-to-her-msian-origin-muslim-faith
Specifically, read the comments their OWN PEOPLE commenting about their OWN COUNTRY, something goes like this: "how come my name is not in the terror list.? You think to strike 1st prize in lottery is as ABC ka.? You think others simply pick your name and simply list you as a terrorist.! You may think you have a sweet cutie pie face but what's within a propaganda brain..... who knows.! .!"
Look at our useless balless Pinky Lips.! He is so innocently looking and full of sadness in his face.! If I see him on the street begging.! I will take him home as a pet but then again what's inside he is just another motherflucker.!
Professor Rahinah Ibrahim is a muslim in a No:1 of everything country.! So can her innocent face tell us that she is no terrorist.! Remember BTN courses was part of her syllabus
Regarding the BTN courses which Dr. Rahinah/Rahimah has taught her students, read this page - http://malaysianunplug.blogspot.com/2009/11/biro-tata-negara-btn-courses-taught-to.html
Malaysia is being run by a fascist regime, fascist with racism / religion thrown in.
Malaysia is the ONLY country in the world where APARTHEID is not only totally legal, everything in Malaysia is run under RACIST RULES.
And in Malaysia, you gotta be a BIG SUPPORTER for UMNO in order to land a job as a "professor" in the local university. That "Rahinah/Rahimah" in Malaysia has the honorary title of "Prof. Dr. Rahinah/Rahimah Binti Ibrahim".
If you want to know the UGLY TRUTH about Malaysia, go ask the Malaysians who are suffering under the racist UMNO rule.
"Never automatically attribute to malice what is more easily explained by incompetence."
If an individual inevitably learns that his name, or some similar name, is on a no-fly list when he tries to board the plane, how can the government defend the position that it national security prevents it from telling that individual that his name or some similar name is on the no-fly-list upon request from the individual? I think the ACLU should sue the government and demand that the government be forced to answer such requests on a reasonable schedule. But what legal basis could be used for such a demand, exactly?
There is no substitute for common sense. Especially, no body of rules will do.
I tthink people need to realize this is just cause and effect. I don't imagine it was n intentional use of the no fly list but more likely a coincidence. But it is still an example of what happens when the arm of the law is too far reaching. Its not as if the skulls is running government from some secret lair its just human beings who barely interact with their individual ideas on a regular basis. The true mistake of the bush government probably came from the influence of wolfowitz on Cheney and then Cheney to bush. I almost feel bad for president bush. But I'm Canadian... We'll do that
...by how bad you think things are (or are not). Until the high income earners start to suffer friom this dictatorial system like the rest of us, we'll still get snarky comments about how "great" the freedoms afforded US citizens is...
My coworker, who was from Pakistan, didn't get interned, but he did get hauled in to show his papers. I think he had a green card at the time; he's a citizen now. But Muslim, so that made him suspicious, even though he's non-political.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
No, and no "thanks for playing", either. There are no clear lines in a dictatorship, it's whatever The Authorities feel like doing, and while you know that some things are definitely forbidden, like criticizing the dictator, you can never trust that anything else you do is safe.
Dictatorships have almost all the bad parts of monarchies*, with newer technology, and the leaders don't even have the excuse that some strange woman lying in a pond handed them a sword or that a Divine Being appointed them, so they have to make sure that the population stays afraid to mess with them. Ever.
By the way, if you want to read an astoundingly good article on Machiavelli, it starts here, at Ex Urbe's blog.
* Most dictatorships don't have hereditary succession, so the dictator is usually somebody who was competent and/or vicious enough to rise to the top, as opposed to being some random idiot who was lucky or unlucky enough to be the kid of the previous king. (North Korea excepted, along with many years of the Roman Empire..) On the other hand, this means that they know they're only in power as long as they suppress or coopt anybody else who's competent and vicious enough to displace them, so they never get to relax unless they can abscond with a lot of cash and move to the South of France.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
Are you talking to me
YES, I AM TALKING TO YOU, FAGGOT !
Why don't you answer what I have posted, about the racist policies in Malaysia ?
If you do not have any ballz, go back to your momma's tummy and try grow a pair, then you come to talk to us.
But you fucking Malays are all like that, ball-less faggots !
Sounds like Fringe Season Five,,,
The FBI agents (one of whom would subsequently “nominate” Dr. Ibrahim for the “no-fly” list, for reasons she still doesn’t know)
So it basically means FBI agents can put anyone on no-fly list without making it public known or even explaining to the victim?
How about the guy who wants to give you better instead of less?
(Not that I know who that is, but it's not impossible. "Less" just seems like a lazy facile overarching non-solution.)
So, fly from Malaysia to [coin-toss] Vancouver, Toronto or Mexico ; travel to nearest convenient US border ; cross there (you're a citizen ; no flying involved) ; travel on to Los Angeles (or another city) by whatever method seems least inconvenient.
This sort of trick works once and once only. So unless this was an important case, someone somewhere has fucked what could otherwise have been a useful trick.
Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"