Slashdot Mirror
Newly Discovered Greenhouse Gas Is 7,000 Times More Powerful Than CO2
Hugh Pickens DOT Com writes "Suzanne Goldenberg writes at The Guardian that researchers at the University of Toronto's department of chemistry have identified a newly discovered greenhouse gas, perfluorotributylamine (PFTBA), in use by the electrical industry since the mid-20th century, that is 7,000 times more powerful than carbon dioxide at warming the Earth. 'We claim that PFTBA has the highest radiative efficiency of any molecule detected in the atmosphere to date,' says Angela Hong. Concentrations of PFTBA in the atmosphere are low – 0.18 parts per trillion in the Toronto area – compared to 400 parts per million for carbon dioxide but PFTBA is long-lived. There are no known processes that would destroy or remove PFTBA in the lower atmosphere so it has a very long lifetime, possibly hundreds of years, and is destroyed in the upper atmosphere. 'It is so much less than carbon dioxide, but the important thing is on a per molecule basis, it is very very effective in interacting with heat from the Earth.' PFTBA has been in use since the mid-20th century for various applications in electrical equipment, such as transistors and capacitors. 'PFTBA is just one example of an industrial chemical that is produced but there are no policies that control its production, use or emission,' says Hong. 'It is not being regulated by any type of climate policy.'"
Sure, lots of things have a stronger absorption profile than CO2, CH4 is one, but if it even has a hundred thousandth of the emission levels of carbon dioxide, I'd be pretty surprised.
Still: fix the easy things first.
Obligatory xckd
http://xkcd.com/558/
0.18 PPT vs 400 PPM
0.18 PPT vs 400000000 PPM
0.00000018 PPM vs 400 PPM
One of them is deceptive, the other 2 provide proper context. Even being 7000 times more powerful doesn't make up for 6 orders of magnitude in concentration.
Fracking wells here in the U.S. have similar leakage rates. Methane is bad news, and a huge chunk of pre-life fireball era earth's atmosphere was methane.
If you're trying to improve system performance, targeting a component which accounts for 5 percent of response time can yield AT MOST a 5 percent overall improvement.
It's the same here, except we're talking about a percentage that is orders of magnitude smaller.
"Pollution is nothing but the resources we are not harvesting. We allow them to disperse because we've been ignorant of their value."
-R. Buckminster Fuller
Some people die at 25 and aren't buried until 75. -Benjamin Franklin
Let's imagine some mad dictator in Northen Cubic Iran starts producing it in huuuge quantities, put into weak containers all accross the country and around his presidential palaces and says 'try to bomb me now'.
Is it feasible for such person to produce enough of this stuff that when released into atmosphere, it would make a significant effect? Not extinction in 1 year effect, but something like 'speed up global warming by 10 years and put it behind the line where Syberia undeground methane starts bubbling a lot more'?
Then this new substance could be used to warm up the martian atmosphere :)
Oooooooops, I accidentally implied that methane caused that. That makes me look really dumb. Please be aware that this was just poor communication, not poor understanding.
Yeah, but if it's 7000 times more powerful, than 0.18 parts * 7000 means 1260 parts per trillion compared to 400 parts per... oh wait, million? Who's to blame for this bullshit comparison, the University of Toronto or The Guardian? I guess no answer is needed on that one.
Get free satoshi (Bitcoin) and Dogecoins
There are a number of gases that are more potent greenhouse gases than carbon dioxide. The issue with carbon dioxide isn't that it has a particularly extreme greenhouse-gas effect, but the combination of two things: 1) it is a somewhat potent greenhouse gas; and 2) we are releasing a huge amount of it at pretty incredible industrial scales. Not a little bit here and there in obscure industrial processes, but through things like coal power plants that literally burn 100 to 200 train cars' worth of coal per day (a typical train car fits ~100 tonnes of coal). The scale is actually pretty impressive, in an old-school, 19th-century industrialism sort of way. The sheer volume of coal these plants burn is such that just keeping it coming regularly is a logistical challenge, and there's a whole industry around technology to unload these 100-car trains in few enough hours that you can get the next one in.
The short of it is that [potency x volume] is the basic issue. Very potent but miniscule releases aren't that important, though it's worth keeping on eye on them.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
Given that sulfur hexafluoride has almost triple the potency of this, and has a concentration around 7 ppt, I think that record's already been set.
Everything is better with chainsaws.
the government wastes three decades obsessed with studying the effects of cow farts on global warming.
Methane is 20x more powerful at trapping heat than CO2, and also it recycles out of the atmosphere in just 12 years.
Maybe we should do something to reduce the billions of methane machines in the world (cows, pigs, etc). Not only would there not exist billions of these animals without human interference, many of these farm animals produce an abnormal amount of methane due to their crappy, corn-fed diet.
Humans gotta eat, but there are healthier options out there than corn fed farm animals (for both us, and the planet).
The Internet King? I wonder if he could provide faster nudity.
"The newly discovered gas, perfluorotributylamine (PFTBA), has been in use by the electrical industry since the mid-20th century."
Did we not know we were using this in electronics since the mid 20th Century?
I think you need to check your division skills there, buddy.
millions of tons of methane are being dumped into the atmosphere thanks to Gazoprom's leaking pipelines....
That is undoubtably true. However, billions of tons of carbon dioxide are released into the atmosphere.
Yet no one gives a hoot because Russia is good while America and their SUVs continue to be targeted by the rest of the jealous world....
While methane does have a higher infrared cross-section than carbon dioxide, it is not that much higher; it also has a much shorter atmospheric lifetime. While it's useful to address both, it makes to address more attention on the larger factor, and not the smaller.
http://www.geoffreylandis.com
Dr. Random: well team, have we finished research on the perfluorotributylamine samples yet?
gradstudent slave: yes and its a tremendously important chemical Dr. Random, have you read our summary?
Dr. Random: yes...it says here this is an incredibly powerful greenhouse gas...oh dear lord.....this means..
gradstudent slave: we need to alert the world in a peer reviewed open access journal without a moment to lose?!
Dr. Random: no...tell no one....this is the end of toques and tire chains as we know it!
Good people go to bed earlier.
Source of the magic smoke identified?
Yeah, there's a mistake with your numbers. With those figures you're either trying to say that the US only has about 326 people in it or that website costs more money than the entire world has produced in the last 10 years.
"Gotta make some more of this stuff! We'll bring forth the rapture even faster!"
That is exactly what we need to terraform Mars! We need to send few tonnes of this stuff to Mars....
A lot more than a "few tonnes", I'm afraid. I'll also point out that the formula for this is C12F27N-- it has a molecular mass of 671-- that's fifteen times more massive than carbon dioxide molecules. So, per unit MASS it's only 460 times more powerful an infrared absorber than carbon dioxide.
SF6 is a better infrared-trapping greenhouse gas for Mars.
Chemical info here, by the way: http://webbook.nist.gov/cgi/cbook.cgi?ID=C311897
http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/content/dam/sigma-aldrich/structure1/050/mfcd00000436.eps/_jcr_content/renditions/large.png
http://www.geoffreylandis.com
That clorflourocarbons and their halon subsititues are inense greenhouse gases. here
Remember how we went through the process of removing CFCs from production and usage (by and large) because of the ozone holes?
It didn't stop the greenhouse effect overall, though, did it? Because sufficient impetus wasn't given to citizens or to governments to avoid expelling greenhouse gases. Especially when it's an issue of what's coming out of your whip cream canister, it gives you little reason to put thought behind that next cut of steak you're going to put that whip cream onto.
Here's just another gas to distract the masses from the greenhouse gases they expel in normal, everyday life. We'll be all focused on this gas and it gives us an excuse to ignore 7,000 other greenhouse effect contributors.
"Stratigraphically the origin of agriculture and thermonuclear destruction will appear essentially simultaneous" -- Lee
With those figures you're either trying to say that the US only has about 326 people in it
So I guess he meant to say per person that successfully signed up...
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
this was just poor communication, not poor understanding.
Amusing, given your name.
When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
Yet no one gives a hoot because Russia is good while America and their SUVs continue to be targeted by the rest of the jealous world....
"Russia is good"? Who the fuck said that? Talk about paranoia...
Ummm, after searching google and filtering out results for "greenhouse", "climate", and "dictionary", the only uses I can find for this chemical are as a mass spectrometer calibration gas and as a component of fluon, which is an artificial blood replacement. Can anyone pin down any other uses of PFTBA? Because the usage of the stuff sure doesn't seem very heavy to me!
It's odd how people have been using this gas for 100 years and it is still "newly discovered."
Obligatory xkcd: http://xkcd.com/1283/
Global warming is not the issue.
The problem is overpopulation. The solution to which is pretty simple: stop shitting out kids.
Global warming is just a symptom, or might be mother nature's way of fixing the problem. Although its long term effects are far less predictable than the weather tomorrow. (Which seems either impossible, or all climate scientists and meteorologists suck.)
It's odd how this gas has been used for 100 years and is still "newly discovered".
Obligatory xkcd: http://xkcd.com/1283/
hey the guy said he can reed, not ryt
which is totally what she said
Yup. your new car will no longer be aloud to smell "like a new car"
That sounds terrible!
Newly Discovered Greenhouse Gas Is 7,000 Times More Powerful Than CO2
... emitted whenever a politician speaks.
-
- - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
Do you know what else has high leakage rates, and are a much higher source of methane emissions? Lakes, ponds, marshes, and swamps. Do you know what higher atmospheric levels of carbon and methane, and rising global temperatures lead to? More lakes, ponds, marshes, and swamps. If we want to get real serious about methane emissions, the best thing we could do is drain all the wetlands.
Where are the peer reviewed papers and corroborating research?
There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
That means it's potentially useful for terraforming Mars, or for preventing the next ice age when it comes around.
Until of course, someone renames it. Nobody can possible be afraid of a news story about PFTBA. If you call it "Electrical Insulation Gas of Heat Death" -- well, then, that should do it.
>>"ad space available -- low rates!!!"
Prior to the oxygen crisis, there was plenty of life, as well.
Or just nuke the ice caps on Mars. Thicken it up a bit and let it warm up on its own thereafter.
Ya, I'm sure the world wouldn't want us launching warheads in space. They might not trust that they'll all reach Mars.
Life is not for the lazy.
Wow, so those fun experiments where people lower the register of their voices are actually really damaging to the environment?
Remind me to stick with helium. But wait, we're running out of our reserves of that stuff.
"No fun allowed."
-Mother Nature
Presumably one would manufacture the gasses on Mars rather than shipping them there.
..., that makes carbon dioxide 317,000 times more problematic than PFTBA. ...
AH HAH!! So, you admit PFTBA is a problem. Well, since when does a politician NOT solve a problem? When the solution is worse than the original problem? No, of course not. They're in the business of selling solutions.
Research shows that 67% of those who use the term "research shows", are just making shit up.
You can't terraform Mars, but terraforming a small domed area of Mars with greenhouse gasses so that it doesn't require mechanical heating might be feasible. Will still have to do something about the soil.
This space intentionally left blank
At least methane breaks down with a half life of about 20 years. CO2 will live eternally until it is absorbed by the ocean, or consumed by a plant.
It sounds like this stuff has no good mechanism to be taken out of the air.
If all of you /. nerds are have so much trouble with the math, image how the rest of use are doing.
Would be new to me that russia is good in any way, especially when it comes to protecting the environment? And where did the article say anything about the US or russia anyway? :)
Unfortunately those SUVs are around pretty much everywhere, not just in the US... if you know a nice country where noone got those ego-problems requiring them to buy such penis-enlargements let me know, that would be something to be jealous about
Wetland emissions come from decaying plant matter -- plant matter which had only recently been absorbed from the atmosphere to begin with. Therefore, wetlands are inherently carbon-netural.
(In reality, of course, it's more complicated: not all of the plant matter decays completely -- some of it eventually turns into coal or petroleum -- so wetlands are actually carbon sinks.)
"[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz
and used by a few overclockers with full-immersion cooling systems.
Remember "News for Nerds, Stuff that Matters"? Help make it a reality again! http://soylentnews.org
Millions of tons of various gas are dumped into the atmosphere daily as they rise from the crust of the Earth.
Once again, we see that slashdot aonymous cowards confuse millions with billions.
Volcanoes emit millions of tons of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere. Humans emit billions of tons of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere.
http://hvo.wr.usgs.gov/volcanowatch/archive/2007/07_02_15.html
http://news.discovery.com/earth/weather-extreme-events/volcanoes-co2-people-emissions-climate-110627.htm
http://www.geoffreylandis.com
Plus there's actually international treaties against it.
Unity? Screw that: XFCE. Slashdot Beta? Screw that: SoylentNews. Australis? Screw that: Pale Moon. UX developers DIAF
Obama isn't even a fucking citizen.
Aaaaand any possible credibility, right out the window.
Unity? Screw that: XFCE. Slashdot Beta? Screw that: SoylentNews. Australis? Screw that: Pale Moon. UX developers DIAF
CO2 is pretty well mixed in the atmosphere with the maximum variation between different locations being on the order of 10 ppm. In general it is a bit higher in the Northern Hemisphere dropping some the further south you get. Here's a paper from 2000 titled The Natural Latitudinal Distribution of Atmospheric CO2 that addresses the issue.
"Absorbed by the ocean" happens at a pretty rapid clip. With a bit of sanity, we could actually manage a net change of near zero carbon dioxide, but we've decided that unsustainable industrial growth is preferable.
It's called getting defensive and slipping in a freudian way.
"If a nation expects to be ignorant and free in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be."
Not even close. The Earth is accumulating heat at a rate of about 4 Hiroshima bombs per second. The increase in atmospheric temperatures has slowed a bit in the last decade+ but the oceans where over 90% of the heat goes continue to warm.
According to the original paper, "the global warming potential of PFTBA over a 100âyear time horizon to be 7100". That's still lower than SF6: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenhouse_gas.
Mass spectroscopy as we know it will die!!! (Or we have to switch to PFK).
This is somewhat off topic, but in my experience the SUVs are typically driven by moms, not by men. I don't have any statistics to back it up, but I would bet that the majority of SUV drivers are moms, or at least parents with enough kids to justify it. Of course if our cities weren't built around the suburban model the SUV's wouldn't be necessary, but the relative abundance of land available in the US made the suburban model enticing to the general public (more living space, etc.).
"Absorbed by the ocean" happens at a pretty rapid clip.
Been keeping an eye on oceanic acidity? Noted the dissolving starfish? The ocean may well continue to absorb the CO2, but it's not a good thing.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Yeah, I know about that, but unlike terrestrial plants which require substantial resources of many kinds to thrive, phytoplankton can be encouraged pretty easily.
Hoping for a technocratic solution is perhaps a little naive, but I much prefer a compromising attempt where we can learn from our mistakes to a hardline approach, or doing nothing.
I keep a box of matches handy for my 'methane' emissions.