More Students Learn CS In 3 Days Than Past 100 Years

theodp writes "Code.org, backed by Bill Gates and Mark Zuckerberg, boasts in a blog post that thanks to this week's Hour of Code, which featured a Blockly tutorial narrated by Gates and Zuckerberg, 'More students have participated in computer science in U.S. schools in the last three days than in the last 100 years.' Taking note of the impressive numbers being put up on the Hour of Code Leaderboards ('12,522,015 students have done the Hour of Code and written 406,022,512 lines of code'), the Seattle Times adds that 'More African American and Hispanic kids learned about the subject in two days than in the entire history of computer science,' and reports that the cities of Chicago and New York have engaged Code.org to offer CS classes in their schools. So, isn't it a tad hyperbolic to get so excited over kids programming with blocks? 'Yes, we can all agree that this week's big Hour of Code initiative is a publicity stunt,' writes the Mercury News' Mike Cassidy, 'but you know what? A publicity stunt is exactly what we need.'"

Comments

Grammatical oversight

[i kan reed]

I'm pretty sure that the last 3 days are contained within the last 100 years.

Re:Grammatical oversight

[Anonymous Coward]

Indeed, what a great big fucking ego fest..

Re:Grammatical oversight

[killkillkill]

Grammatical oversight ignored, if what they were trying to say is true I can't imagine that it would not be true for 1,000 yrs, 1 million years... 100 Years? Were is their sensationalism?

Re:Grammatical oversight

[davester666]

Since they are all trained up, we can cancel all the H1B's for programmers/IT.

Re:Grammatical oversight

[necro81]

Grammatical oversight ignored....Were is their sensationalism?

Yes, were indeed?

Re:Grammatical oversight

[ebno-10db]

The kids haven't graduated yet - we need the H-1B's as a temporary measure (just like we did 20 years ago).

Re:Grammatical oversight

[killkillkill]

Two hours passed before anyone pointed out my mistake? Slashdot sure has changed.

Re:Grammatical oversight

[Yold]

Well said. This is a positive aspect of H1B visas; it can (emphasis on can) allow for an elastic workforce that can filled in economic boom times, and scaled back during economic decline.

Re:Grammatical oversight

[ebno-10db]

Poe's law? Whoosh? Either you missed my sarcasm, or I'm missing yours. 20 years ago they said we needed the H-1B program as a "temporary" measure until more Americans were educated in the appropriate skills. That temporary measure is still in effect.

Re:Grammatical oversight

[rtb61]

Speaking of grammar, any computer programming code is actually a language because that is exactly what it is. So writing of any language is in point of fact coding of communications to exchange and process ideas. So literally false premise and people have been learning and coding language for quite some time. As for computers a reminder of where that word actually came from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_computer. Why do egoists only see what they do, achieve and take credit for while blatantly ignoring everyone else's efforts, those that actually do the work and why does mass media routinely support this deceit. Especially considering the premise for 'BASIC' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BASIC.

Writing 32 lines is not "Learning CS"

[NeverWorker1]

Hour of code is not a bad thing, but this didn't create 12M programmers, much less 12M people who know computer science. They averaged 32.4 lines each.

Re: Writing 32 lines is not "Learning CS"

[yahwotqa]

Indeed, but what it _did_ do is expose them to the idea that computers can be tools that do what we tell them to do, and not just magic black boxes for mindless content consumption. Even though 90% of the kids will completely forget about it tomorrow.

Re:Writing 32 lines is not "Learning CS"

[Anonymous Coward]

'More African American and Hispanic kids learned about the subject in two days than in the entire history of computer science.'

So all it takes is 3 days to learn all of computer science? The universities and colleges have been forcing a 4-year curriculum upon students and employers have been demanding applicants have a doctorate degree plus 100 years experience for years. By the standards set by Hour od Code I would have learned everything there is to know about computer science after a month programming my Commodore VIC-20 (Commodore PET BASIC and 6502 machine language - there was no assembler at the time so every instruction had to be POKEd into memory). Zuckerberg and Gates want to commoditize computer programming, software enigeering, and software development so wages drop to less than minimum wage.

Re:Writing 32 lines is not "Learning CS"

[QilessQi]

Thank you. The BS quotient in that headline was alarmingly high. Or are we now just publishing Microsoft and Facebook press releases verbatim?

Re: Writing 32 lines is not "Learning CS"

[ebno-10db]

computers can be tools that do what we tell them to do

How long have you been programming?

Re:Writing 32 lines is not "Learning CS"

[Anonymous Coward]

"Hour of code is not a bad thing, but this didn't create 12M programmers, much less 12M people who know computer science."

And even if it did, how many of those 12M computer sciency programmers would actually enjoy programming and computer science.

Re: Writing 32 lines is not "Learning CS"

[i kan reed]

Long enough to recognize that they do what we say, not what we want.

Re: Writing 32 lines is not "Learning CS"

[tepples]

A computer does exactly what the user tells it to do. If the user makes a mistake, the computer still does what the user tells it, including the mistake. (The exception is computers with a locked bootloader, which do what the manufacturer tells it to do instead of what the user tells it to do.)

Re:Writing 32 lines is not "Learning CS"

[Anonymous Coward]

Hour of code is not a bad thing, but this didn't create 12M programmers, much less 12M people who know computer science. They averaged 32.4 lines each.

Yes, but that's about all that is needed to spark the interest of someone who had a latent interest in computers but did not know it.

Re: Writing 32 lines is not "Learning CS"

[CodeBuster]

the idea that computers can be tools that do what we tell them to do, and not just magic black boxes for mindless content consumption.

Unfortunately, this new interest comes at a time when the big players in the industry, like Apple, are well along in the process of doing away with the general purpose computer and replacing it with walled garden tablet like devices who's primary purpose is mindless consumption. In very real ways programming is becoming ever less accessible to the average person or at least less open to the sorts of spontaneous discovery and experimentation that attract new people into the field. For example, it's difficult now to have the sort of VIC-20, Commodore-64 or Apple II experience that inspired well know programmers like Linus Torvalds and many others to become interested in computing and programming at an early age.

Re:Writing 32 lines is not "Learning CS"

[RabidReindeer]

Hour of code is not a bad thing, but this didn't create 12M programmers, much less 12M people who know computer science. They averaged 32.4 lines each.

It's about as valid as saying 12M students "learned" neurosurgery in 3 days.

I'm bloody brilliant, but I didn't learn what I know in 3 days. I only learned a small fraction of what I know in 3 days.

Re:Writing 32 lines is not "Learning CS"

[RogueWarrior65]

The unintended consequence of this is the creation of as many as 12 million people who now THINK they know something about computer science. Those people may be likely to engage in policy-making or support policies created by other low-information people. It's no different than someone watching Dr. Oz suddenly declaring themselves to be experts on healthcare.

Re: Writing 32 lines is not "Learning CS"

[yahwotqa]

I'd give you a +1 Funny as well,if it wasn't my comment you were replying to. :-)

Re: Writing 32 lines is not "Learning CS"

[ArhcAngel]

I suspect the programming languages of the not to distant future will make Visual Basic look like brain surgery. "Siri...write a program to do X."

Re: Writing 32 lines is not "Learning CS"

[yahwotqa]

I fully agree, and having first learned to write programs on 8-bit computers, I share your sentiment, but this is still better than nothing.

Re: Writing 32 lines is not "Learning CS"

[Impy the Impiuos Imp]

Not only that, but:

> "and written 406,022,512 lines of code"

Sounds like a bad 5 weeks I had once 15 years ago.

Re:Writing 32 lines is not "Learning CS"

[theodp]

The original submission was a little less wide-eyed. Guess the editor cut the Harold Hill reference (that's Lyle Lanley, for you Simpsons fans!) in the interest of objectivity (or perhaps it was just too obcure!) :-)

Re:Writing 32 lines is not "Learning CS"

[Virtucon]

OMG 12 Million "Hello World" programs written in VB? Oh the Humanity!!!!!

Re:Writing 32 lines is not "Learning CS"

[QilessQi]

Nice. :-) But for scansion, might I suggest: ...with a capital T and that rhymes with C and that stands for Code!

Re: Writing 32 lines is not "Learning CS"

[mrman18766]

Students still have graphing calculators. The first programs I wrote were on my TI graphing calc.

Re:Writing 32 lines is not "Learning CS"

[Anonymous Coward]

The unintended consequence of this is the creation of as many as 12 million people who now THINK they know something about computer science.

Or more likely, 11 million people realize that they have the capability to write a computer virus.

Re: Writing 32 lines is not "Learning CS"

[Terry95]

For example, it's difficult now to have the sort of VIC-20, Commodore-64 or Apple II experience that inspired well know programmers like Linus Torvalds and many others to become interested in computing and programming at an early age.

Not true. It is still just as easy to have that experience on a windows, Linux, or even apple PC. What your statement fails to acknowledge is the "glitz component". Linus even today doesn't get involved in the KDE vs gnome vs xfc etc pissing contests. The core of install the GCC compiler and start coding is alive, well and actually more accessible than ever. But kids don't want to create lamba functions, they want wiz bang spinning flaming logos that play music -- well that's not really programming. That is scripting and component assembly.

I freely admit I SUCK at web design. But few web designers can code either. They are different skills used for different jobs. The public just doesn't understand the difference because they both happen inside the black box.

Ultimately I think this effort is a negative. It will generate even more people who know just enough to be dangerous, most of which will go on to get MBAs and lord over future programmers telling them how easy their job is and they were doing this stuff when they were 10; never knowing, or caring, how completely ignorant they really are.

Re: Writing 32 lines is not "Learning CS"

[Anonymous Coward]

That's one well documented Hello World program.

Re: Writing 32 lines is not "Learning CS"

[necro81]

In very real ways programming is becoming ever less accessible to the average person or at least less open to the sorts of spontaneous discovery and experimentation that attract new people into the field. For example, it's difficult now to have the sort of VIC-20, Commodore-64 or Apple II experience that inspired well know programmers like Linus Torvalds and many others to become interested in computing and programming at an early age.

Bollocks. There are still plenty of ways a person can tinker with general-purpose computing on their home PC, and what novices are able to do blows my mind. You can get free BASIC environments for all major computer platforms out there. There are browser-based IDEs for all kinds of languages. Hell, you can even get emulators for a C-64 or Apple II. Even better: pick up an Arduino for $25 and start coding an embedded system. Want more power, connectivity, and GUIs? Try RaspPI or BeagleBone. What makes the current age awesome for those that want to start learning and tinkering is that, unlike 30 years ago, everything you need - IDEs, libraries, reference docs, user communities, example projects with source code - are just an internet search away, and free.

Re: Writing 32 lines is not "Learning CS"

[Linzer]

"Siri...write a program to do X."

Did you mean: "Sbaitso...write a program to do X."

Re:Writing 32 lines is not "Learning CS"

[Minwee]

Also, you can learn to be a Professional Structural Engineer in just three days by pounding some nails into a board.

Re: Writing 32 lines is not "Learning CS"

[ebno-10db]

"and written 406,022,512 lines of code"

Any good Lisper will tell you he could have done that with 100 lines and some macros.

Re: Writing 32 lines is not "Learning CS"

[K. S. Kyosuke]

Unless you're a perverse lover of parentheses using DWIM technology.

Re:Writing 32 lines is not "Learning CS"

[BreakBad]

*Furiously updating resume*

Re: Writing 32 lines is not "Learning CS"

[Anonymous Coward]

"the creation of as many as 12 million people who now THINK they know something about computer science."

Which is a good thing, because it's true. At the very least, hands-on experience with the basic building blocks goes a long way to dispel the magical symbolic thinking of "i click this button, and i get this result".

Peeking inside the black box at least once provides a basic understanding of how the thing works, which is much more than most people learn about most technology in their life - whether it's electricity, car mechanics or chemistry.

Re:Writing 32 lines is not "Learning CS"

[weilawei]

But in this case, it did expose them to the idea that computers aren't magic. To the idea that they can learn to do something that was before "magic". Most importantly of all, even if not a single one ever goes on to be a programmer, they've been forced to think critically. Programming, in its broadest sense, is applied problem solving. Critical thinking is severely lacking in schools. When was the last time you heard of kids in your area being taught the difference between a fact statement and an opinion statement? I was as a kid, but it seems to have gone the way of the dodo.

Re:Writing 32 lines is not "Learning CS"

[weilawei]

Doesn't matter a whit. It's applied problem solving, something strangely lacking in today's "gimme gimme" culture.

Re:Writing 32 lines is not "Learning CS"

[psithurism]

If an eight year olds are writing computer viruses using "Move the Turtle," then I for one will be insanely impressed and consider hour of code a phenomenally unbelievable success. I will probably also have to retire from my job since I will be replaced by elementary school children, because if they can throw some blocks together to create computer viruses, I have no doubt they could do some digital signal processing as well.

Re: Writing 32 lines is not "Learning CS"

[jchoyt]

It's actually worse. It's the same 75 lines of code over and over and over and over and over and over .... That being said, both my kids did it :)

Re:Writing 32 lines is not "Learning CS"

[Darinbob]

Agreed. Programming is not computer science, and IT is not computer science! This is like saying school kids learn mathematics when all they did was learn arithmetic.

I even heard these sorts of misunderstandings being done on a radio call in show about online learning courses, and they kept talking about "computer science" when the classes were just things like Java and such.

Now it is true that many things have been getting dumbed down over the year, with dropouts like Zuckerberg providing the worst role models ever, but please can we put a stop to this and start making education more about learning and less about becoming a corporate worker?

Re: Writing 32 lines is not "Learning CS"

[Darinbob]

A Schemer would have done it in 98 lines.

Re: Writing 32 lines is not "Learning CS"

[Darinbob]

Bit it's not computer science, even if it was 1,000,000 lines of code. CS is not a synonym for writing programs.

Re:Writing 32 lines is not "Learning CS"

[Darinbob]

Ya it's dumb. A really large chunk of computer science is abstract mathematics. It is an academic subject. Programming is just a tool that is useful in studying the subject, which can also be used as a trade.

Re: Writing 32 lines is not "Learning CS"

[ddt]

Don't worry, CodeBuster. The geeks with good taste are also having and raising kids, and they're raising them right- on the command line in Linux.

Re: Writing 32 lines is not "Learning CS"

[ebno-10db]

I'd ask about Clojure, but I don't know what to call its users. Clojureners? Clojurists? Clojuristas? Quick - we need a standard before this gets out of hand.

Re: Writing 32 lines is not "Learning CS"

[jfdawes]

There's perhaps a distinction between coding and programming being used that you missing (coding: Just writing code. Programming: Designing and building programs). You're right that coding is really accessible - and there's terrific tools that will write most of your code for you. However there's a huge number of people out there coding really awful programs, because the knowledge necessary to understand what the computer is really doing with your code is quite hard to come by, which I believe is necro81's point.

Re: Writing 32 lines is not "Learning CS"

[drinkypoo]

Unfortunately, this new interest comes at a time when the big players in the industry, like Apple, are well along in the process of doing away with the general purpose computer and replacing it with walled garden tablet like devices who's primary purpose is mindless consumption.

I can't speak to iOS, but on Android you can make apps without even learning to program by stringing actions together in Tasker.

Re:Writing 32 lines is not "Learning CS"

[basecastula]

What do they call it in school now, Computer engineering ie programming.

Re: Writing 32 lines is not "Learning CS"

[ghettoimp]

You have a pretty optimistic view of how computers operate.

Re:Writing 32 lines is not "Learning CS"

[phantomfive]

Remember Zuckerburg dropped out of college his Sophmore year. Chances are he never learned much computer science either......he was just a business guy and a code monkey.

Re: Writing 32 lines is not "Learning CS"

[rusty0101]

Not really, it was written in assembly.

Re: Writing 32 lines is not "Learning CS"

[rusty0101]

As long as you live in her basement, or it costs less to call you than call the manufacturer's tech support, you'll be your mother's first line tech support person. You know what to do about the first situation. The latter situation may just be an extension, except that she will save up tech support problems for your next visit. You do plan on stopping in for Dad's Birthday, right?

Re: Writing 32 lines is not "Learning CS"

[CodeBuster]

as the calculators get routinely erased and reset.

You mean you never wrote the fake reset program on your TI? That was classic although the newer ones support mini SD cards so a student could keep the programs on the cards and switch cards after wiping the programs stored in the onboard memory.

Re: Writing 32 lines is not "Learning CS"

[polandr]

"He was just a business guy and a code monkey" Sounds like a frightening proposition! What if business were run by people who understand computers? -Ryan

Re:Writing 32 lines is not "Learning CS"

[greggster]

Ask again in 4 years 'rem those 3 days of coding - of all those folks, who made a career out of it?' Then we'll have something to talk about.

Re:Writing 32 lines is not "Learning CS"

[jhoger]

"The unintended consequence of this is the creation of as many as 12 million people who now THINK they know something about computer science."

We have to get CTOs, VP's of IT and project managers from somewhere.

Re:Writing 32 lines is not "Learning CS"

[RogueWarrior65]

Yes, I suppose that's true and Scott Adams would have nothing to write about.

D'oh

[Anonymous Coward]

And to think I wasted all those years of college courses to learn CS. Who knew I could have just done it in 3 days!?

Re:D'oh

[RedHackTea]

Why stop at CS? We need the wonderful mind of Gatesberg to do this for Math, English, Chemistry, Medicine, etc.! To think that I could have been a genius, if only they had existed when I was kid...

Words..

[GrBear]

Words.. the summary is missing some.

Is it even possible anymore?

[Anonymous Coward]

I work on web apps, with DB back ends. I need to be able to set up the DB structure, create the queries, set the indexes, schedule the DB backups, then set up the web server, code the back end to get the data, write a frontend in javascript using knockout and ajax to make it responsive and usable. Since we have a small development team each of the three of us has to be able to do all of these steps. This is in addition to the ERP programming and interfaces I also do for this.

Is it even possible for new people to come along and learn all of this? I am able just because I learned as it came out piece by piece, but I keep wondering if new people will ever be able to do the full range of things. With a larger team you can split it up, but rarely do you get a team were each person is fully competent and unless there is someone who can call BS on any part of it there is potential for problems.

I also wonder if anyone in their right mind would bother learning all of this. When we interview people under 30 they are saying stuff like "I do Apple IOS programming and nothing else". I know there is a lot of ageism anti-old people sentiment expressed here on /., but when you actually need something done and can't hire 10 people to do it you can't hire these younger people.

Re: Is it even possible anymore?

[Anonymous Coward]

it's called life experience. Someday you too will have it.

Re:Is it even possible anymore?

[Anonymous Coward]

I need to be able to set up the DB structure, create the queries, set the indexes, schedule the DB backups, then set up the web server, code the back end to get the data, write a frontend in javascript using knockout and ajax to make it responsive and usable. Since we have a small development team each of the three of us has to be able to do all of these steps.

OK. First if you are looking for someone with that experience, you will be one of those employers "who can't find anyone qualified". All that stuff was required for your job and your job only - so of course you learned all that. Your competitors may have their development team structured differrently; so poaching may not work.

I am able just because I learned as it came out piece by piece, but I keep wondering if new people will ever be able to do the full range of things.

They could if given the chance. Unfortunately, I am almost completely certain that if your employer needed to replace you or a member of your team, they would demand ALL of the skills that you used and if folks where lacking any, they would be labeled as unqualified.

. When we interview people under 30 they are saying stuff like "I do Apple IOS programming and nothing else".

Of course! If they are programming iOS stand alone apps, why would they need to do anything else? And many programming skills require quite a large investment in software and hardware to learn on ones own.
And then learning new things: there's so much out there, what should one concentrate on first? The most popular NOW or what you may think will be popular in the near future? It's real easy to invest time and money and eventually get burned. It happened to me when I invested the hundreds of dollars for Palm development and hundreds of hours of time only to have the market go a completely different direction.

And of course, one may actually want a life other than programming all the time.

Technology is very fickle and the marketplace for talent is crazy. One moment your got all the "right" skills and then *poof*, the next big thing come along and that's what most want. And the "old" technologies become saturated with qualified people.

when you actually need something done and can't hire 10 people to do it you can't hire these younger people.

I see. So you want a clone of yourself. See the beginning of this comment.

tl;dr: Parent is totally unrealistic in his demands for emploees and illustrates perfectly how screwed up the tech employment market is.

Re:Is it even possible anymore?

[Sarten-X]

I work on automated servers, doing various things with Windows and Powershell that Microsoft doesn't even think are possible. I could bore you with the list of components I have detailed knowledge of, but that'd make this post too long to bother reading.

I knew none of it when I started this job. In a few weeks, I'd picked up enough of the system knowledge to start leading my own projects, and within six months I was teaching my almost-boss how the components work.

Nobody else has your exact skill set, that's true, but ultimately your skill set doesn't actually matter when looking for a replacement. What matters is whether the person you bring in can do the job. That might mean they have to learn your skills quickly, or maybe they just have to learn how to copy an existing setup, or perhaps they just have to learn how to properly panic when a status light turns red.

As business changes, the required skill set will change, as well. The people who will survive are the ones who learn, not the ones who know.

Re:Is it even possible anymore?

[pr0fessor]

Is it even possible for new people to come along and learn all of this?

Yes, they can, will, and have. I'm also sure there was someone asking the same question a decade, two decades, a century ago. We have great capacity for learning and adapting. Almost all of the successful people I work with are constantly going back to school, are brushing up on subjects with a new book, or attending training seminars even the ones close to retirement. {random photography classes are fairly common too especially if they just bought an expensive and nifty camera}

When we interview people under 30 they are saying stuff like "I do Apple IOS programming and nothing else".

The question isn't what they have done, it's how willing are they to learn and how hard will they work at it. If it's still the same answer "I do Apple IOS programming and nothing else" expect to see them behind the counter at the apple genius bar or at the drive through asking "Would you like fries with that?".

Re:Is it even possible anymore?

[BenoitRen]

write a frontend in javascript

You're doing it wrong.

Re:Is it even possible anymore?

[Skreems]

Yes. And there are several sites out there that will present you with several options for each layer, with pros and cons and instructions on how to configure them, and host them for free.

Check out Heroku. There's a learning curve, but it's amazing how easy it is for even a new user to get a full-stack web app up and running in a matter of hours compared to 5 years ago.

Re:Is it even possible anymore?

[cryptizard]

Nice humblebrag. The truth is, anyone with a CS degree and the desire to learn can figure those things out. You aren't a special snowflake because you managed to do it.

Re:Is it even possible anymore?

[narcc]

When we interview people under 30 they are saying stuff like "I do Apple IOS programming and nothing else".

Do you live in the Unixtown, were everyone specializes in exactly one thing?

I can only imagine the conversations you must have over there: "Hi, I'm Bob and I know Javascript" "Hi Bob, I'm Alice, and I know HTML" "Nice to meet you Alice. Let me introduce you to Carl. He knows CSS. If we got together, we could make a webpage." "What a great idea! I'll call Dora. She knows a cookie recipe. We can put it online If we can find someone who can use Apache."

Re:Is it even possible anymore?

[jhoger]

The first thing you need to understand is that what you are doing isn't all that different from what any other programmer, certainly not any other web programmer does.

Knockout is a library and ajax is a pattern. Any developer worth anything will be able to pick them up by looking at existing code and doing a little reading and experimenting.

Wow....

[blackbeak]

That's an awful lot of "Hello World"!

Re:Wow....

[NoNonAlphaCharsHere]

You forgot about calling all the factory methods and creating the graphic contexts and message queues and new whatnot.whatever.initialize() - you know: the computer sciencey stuff.

Re:Wow....

[Anonymous Coward]

https://github.com/EnterpriseQualityCoding/FizzBuzzEnterpriseEdition

Almost.

Re:Wow....

[rusty0101]

They wrote it in ASM, using bios calls on a per character basis. It's really tight code.

Yeah, no ...

[gstoddart]

Learning a little about programming and computers is not "CS".

A high-level tutorial is just that, and this is just marketing spin on teaching some computer literacy. It's admirable, but it isn't what they're claiming it is.

Re:Yeah, no ...

[neorush]

This is a pretty academic way of looking at it. You have to start some where. When you were learning to add single digit numbers no one said "Learning a little bit about adding numbers is not Calculus." While in a literal sense it is not, you simply can not proceed without the latter.

Re:Yeah, no ...

[BringsApples]

Personally, I think that they're building onto the ideology that 'knowing how to use a computer' makes you smart. In an effort to guide more youth into wasting their lives in cubicles, and all that comes with that - in order to support the lifestyles enjoyed by both Gates and Shmuckerberg. What these 2 shit-heads should be teaching is how to fuck over others in order to be one of the richest guys in the world.

Re:Yeah, no ...

[s.petry]

I think it's a bit worse than that

The "Hour of Code" and all of this alleged programing was not programming. It's a drag and drop "tutorial" of high level concepts, and the user interface is what writes all the code. Think of the old "Turtle" program where you give the user interface some basic instructions "move left 1", "move forward 2", etc... The hour of code was a fancier version of this, and changed to Angry Birds.

From what I read and saw in Youtube videos of this, it teaches the concepts at a very high level. I never saw any examples of people switching to a source view and editing the code the interface writes so I'm not sure this interface was capable of something that advanced (could be, I didn't run it).

A more accurate summary would be "millions of users run a program which teaches high level concepts and writes code for them.". I guess we could add "Zuckerburg and Gates need to feel better about themselves so sponsor the program."

Re:Yeah, no ...

[CodeBuster]

It's admirable, but it isn't what they're claiming it is.

You're dealing with Silicon Valley types here, hype and hyperbole are second nature to these people. Most of these guys have their heads so far up in the clouds that they forget what they sound like when talking to ordinary people who live outside their bubble world. Mostly, they're full of shit but the average person doesn't seem to recognize this and so the public eats their crap up because they don't know any better.

Re:Yeah, no ...

[QilessQi]

I don't think anyone is saying that the time was ill-spent. The objection is to the hyperbole, especially in the headline. If I said, "My children learned how to drive, you would assume that they now know how to drive. While learning how to read a speedometer and turn the key in the ignition are components of that, I would hardly say that they "learned driving".

But then, I don't work in PR.

Re:Yeah, no ...

[gstoddart]

Personally, I think that they're building onto the ideology that 'knowing how to use a computer' makes you smart.

I agree that learning how to use computers gives you an important skillset and more advantages than if you don't.

But saying they "learned CS" is like saying learning how to apply a bandaid means you've "learned medicine", or hammering a nail means you've "learned carpentry" -- it's completely over-stating what you've done, and has no bearing on what you're claiming.

Learning a few computer concepts is NOT "learning CS".

Re:Yeah, no ...

[ModernGeek]

It's not just Computer Science that they are doing this to, a lot of American high schools are teaching kids welding and calling it Structural Engineering. All they are doing is lying to kids by showing them the high salaries of the top men in these fields, and then teaching them to be peasants. They used to show us how to get into Engineering while in high school, we called it Calculus.

Re:Yeah, no ...

[bmajik]

You couldn't be more wrong.

Disclaimer: I helped with an Hour of Code session in a public highschool this morning. And I've been teaching "block based programming" all semester in this same highschool as part of the "Teals" program (http://www.tealsk12.org)

Go here. Do it. Then do it with kids you know.

http://learn.code.org/hoc/1

The Blockly stuff is _Exactly_ how I figured I would teach my own kids about programming years ago. I had planned to make something like blockly at some point, and I was thrilled when I saw that someone else had done so.

Go through the hour of code blockly sample. It is simple enough that my 6 year old got through all 20 exercizes. He needed a little help on a few of them.

But ask yourself - what is the hardest part of programming? It is typing in the code?

I contend that it isn't.

IMO, the interesting stuff is decomposing the problem, and then finding out ways to solve each step of the problem. If you want to be elegant, you figure out which sub-problems are similar to other sub-problems, and you can make your code more efficient; you can increase re-use, etc.

Making kids figure out the instructions to solve a maze is EXACTLY how I'd teach young people about CS. A maze is a problem every child understands. What they may not understand is how to write precise instructions to implement what they already know.

The language and the tooling are irrelevant. Some programming paradigms are more mind-bending than others for a given problem, but fundamentally, if you know how to break down problems, and you know the context/paradigms of a particular language or tool set, you can do whatever you need to do.

We've been teaching highschoolers using "BYOB". Sure, they aren't about where to put the asterisk on a function decl. But all of these kids have been successful at implementing a variety of simple sprite based games -- galaga, hangman, a scrolling Mario, etc.

Don't you dare say its not programming just because they're not typing the code.

I've seen some real ingenuity out of our highschoolers. The tools allow them to be productive quickly; they do a better job of holding their interest than a text editor.

Re:Yeah, no ...

[bmajik]

This is not computer literacy.

This is training minds to think like programmers. It is about understanding a problem, decomposing it, and asking them to express solutions to each sub-problem.

They are required to figure out what went wrong when their code has bugs. They have to keep iterating until it does the right thing.

This is the _fundamental_ activity of thinking like a programmer. All of the bullshit about bad languages, bad tools, bad APIs, etc is all stripped away. We're left with the distilled essence of the programming mindset.

Schools teach computer literacy already. At the highschool I teach CS at, there is a full slate of classes around using Photoshop, office apps, web design, etc. _Those_ are application-specific computer literacy. Everyone has email. Everyone has a network share that is theirs. Everyone knows about loading and saving files. These kids are computer literate.

Hour of Code is not about computer literacy. It is about the quickest, least frivolous way to get kids minds in programming gear.

Some will not get it.
Some will get it.
Some will _love_ it.

I remember when I was a kid, I went to a workshop about computer programming. They had us yell out the instructions to make a peanut butter and jelly sandwhich. The presenter did only exactly what the kids said, so when they left out steps or assumed things, the sandwhich got made wrong.

I do the same thing with kids now, except with physical comedy, and by interpreting what they said in the least-correct way that would be permissible under the rules of the English language.

The kids love it; it gets them engaged, it gets them thinking. It makes them think about order of operations. It makes them use precise language. It makes them really think about all of the things they assume or take for granted.

Asking a person to give an imbecile instructions on how to do an everyday thing is MUCH more relevant to computer programming than putting someone infront of a text editor and having them copy/paste lines from a book to make hello world. That requires no thinking at all.

The people behind Hour of Code know what they're doing. Hour of Code isn't the end of CS. But we hope that for a huge pile of kids, It's the beginning.

Re:Yeah, no ...

[s.petry]

I'm not wrong, sorry. I ran the little editor you provided the link to and tried to "write code" but could not do so. Dragging and dropping a "move forward" icon is not writing code. When I do it two or three times it's still not writing "code". I can't edit the code, but the interface shows me the code it will write if I click a button. Yet it keeps telling me "you wrote N lines of code" but I have no opportunity to write anything! I drag and drop icons and an interface writes.

This is not at all like programming in C where I have options like using a while, until, or for loop and learn to choose what's the best type of loop for the task because their interface makes those choices for you. I don't get the opportunity to change an "if" to a "switch" because I plan to extend options later. I won't even get into the underlying sprites that are actually doing things on the screen.

So as I started with, it's giving them some very basic concepts. It's not "writing code", it's using an interface that has some basic programming logic for users to practice "concepts". Could this be used to create nifty things that exercise the brain? Absolutely, but call it something other than "coding".

Re:Yeah, no ...

[weilawei]

This is training minds to think like programmers. It is about understanding a problem, decomposing it, and asking them to express solutions to each sub-problem.

My kingdom for mod points.

Re:Yeah, no ...

[holostarr]

Personally I'm a little sceptical of this Hour of Code thing or the so called CS crisis, but if the intention of this exercise is to ignite interest in those who may never have considered the field, why is there a need to simplify it down so much? Do we think children today are less capable and intelligent than the generations before them who learned programming or even become pioneers? I hope I'm wrong, but I feel these introductions may attract the wrong type of people to the field by giving them the wrong impression of what computer science is about for simple purpose of flooding the market with cheap labour.

Re:Yeah, no ...

[cryptizard]

Your arrogance is staggering. Just because something isn't exactly like C, the end-all-be-all of languages, it's not real programming? It has all the basic constructs that you would want in a programming language, including variables, conditional statements, loops and even functions. Are you going to program a kernel in it? Of course not, but it very effectively gets across the ideas of programming to an elementary/middle school audience.

Re:Yeah, no ...

[neorush]

I would classify that reading a speedometer is part of learning how to drive. I agree the headline is missing leading. TFA (and summary) says they learned about the subject.

Re:Yeah, no ...

[neorush]

Computer Science: the study of the principles and use of computers. I would dare say that coding is a use of a computer. If it gets kids fascinated in it, it is the BEST way to start. I did not pickup calculus very well until later in life because we are only taught how to solve a paper problem high-school. But, show kids how you can use calculus to land your Kerbal Space craft more efficiently....

Re:Yeah, no ...

[istartedi]

I *did* take a look at the Angry Birds example. I skipped over the parts that I got right away, skimming the whole thing in about five minutes. Here's my take on it.

It's a lot like working with a GUI builder. When they started coming out with tools that let us position buttons and other elements on dialog boxes, it was a godsend. If you looked at the code that MSVC++ spat out, you'd see things like, INPUT(59,545,20) or some such, which would have been tedious to do with compile, view, edit... cycles. Tools like that save programmer hours of tedium.

The Angry Birds example does that with logic, which is less tedious than positioning elements on a dialog box, so that seems less useful to an experienced programmer.

I would tend to agree that using a GUI builder is not programming; but this leads us to something. If you can do programming with something as easy to use as a GUI builder, then why program at all? I don't know anybody who gets upset with people who prefer to use a GUI builder as opposed to typing in pixel coordinates by hand. There may come a day when more programming, even logic programming is dominated by tools that resemble GUI builders.

We should always retain the ability to go under the hood; but honestly, I've never had a buggy GUI builder where I had to edit the coordinates by hand. I haven't done assembly from C. Ever. Other people do though, at least the latter. I don't feel like not doing assembly from C disqualifies me as a "real programmer". As the tools become more advanced, the bar for "real programmer" gets lower.

It's just that right now, no serious developers are using GUI builder style interfaces for logic. Twenty years from now, it might be the norm.

Re:Yeah, no ...

[s.petry]

I didn't claim it had to be exactly like C, I said it's not programming. It's not basic, it's not shell scripting, it's not Fortran, it's not Perl or Python. The only thing it could be related as "close" to is Visual C/Basic, but even then you have to really know some coding to do any more than create dialogue boxes with "Ok" in them.

I don't give a rats ass what language you compare this to, it is NOT coding. It's logic puzzles and building blocks. Claiming it's coding is like claiming that giving a kid Lego's is the same as the kid being an architect. It is not the same, though some of the principles of Lego's (basic concepts of spacial geometry) are a part of being an architect. Or claiming that teaching a kid the letters of the alphabet is the same as the kid being a journalist.

As I stated, the concepts are good to know and a start at programming logic which is a sight better than using flowcharts like we used to have as a first step. I'm never claimed it was "bad", I'm claiming it's "not coding".

Re:Yeah, no ...

[Darinbob]

The whole goal here was not to create computer scientists, but to help create more low wage tech workers for the future.

Re:Yeah, no ...

[cryptizard]

First off, who are you to tell people what coding is? Second, the puzzle blocks are basically one-to-one mappings to lines of C. The only difference is that you are dragging and dropping instead of typing out lines. Think of it like an accessibility layer on top of C for people that, for some reason, have trouble typing. I question whether you have really looked at the system at all. If you see a final program in Scratch, it looks very similar to a syntax highlighted C program.

Re:Yeah, no ...

[cryptizard]

Sorry to reply again but I was pondering it some more and another angle occurred to me. Think about the way that C is parsed by a compiler. Every reserved word has a particular syntax that it follows, i.e. if() must contain a conditional statement and block of code to execute if the condition is true. Really, at a low level all languages are already formed in a "puzzle piece" kind of way. The compiler just parses in a tree and checks that all expressions match the correct form. All you have to do is make a puzzle piece for every kind of expression and you could easily turn C into a visual programming language. All they did on code.org was remove some of the cruftier parts of C that would make it less accessible to little kids. The majority of the functionality is retained though.

Re:Yeah, no ...

[QilessQi]

But this is Slashdot! Don't you know you're not supposed to read the summary, much less the article! :-)

Re:Yeah, no ...

[narcc]

Please, "typing" a "program" in C is not "writing code". If you're not toggling bits from the front panel, you're not writing code. You don't even get into the underlying instructions that are actually doing things.

C is just giving you some very basic concepts. It's not "writing code", it's using an interface that has some basic programming logic for users to practice "concepts".

Re:Yeah, no ...

[s.petry]

Oh nifty, we open with an appeal to authority argument. Who am I to tell people what coding is? Someone with 30 years of experience in computer sciences is probably a good start, as would writing and editing thousands of pieces of code in my 30 years experience.

I don't have to return the appeal to emotion and make a claims that you are not qualified to comment. I presented logical explanations for my position, and you respond with fallacies. Read your last line! " If you see a final program in Scratch, it looks very similar to a syntax highlighted C program.". The user does not write Scratch in the "Hour of code", and in fact can not write any code in this hour program.

As for your appeal to emotion, if a user can't type there are no options other than using a mouse to drag and drop icons? Come now, I have worked with people that are disabled and know better. If a person can not use a keyboard they generally can not use a mouse either. A voice recognition program can write just as easy as be told mouse movement instructions.

As to your next post, it's not a valid supposition. First there are IDEs that will help with syntax issues. Second, the user does not have to understand several critical pieces of "coding" in the code.org Hour of Code. Looking at the code the interface writes, the user will see "while (not_finished)". The "not_finished" is not something the user defines, and can't even see how it's defined. I'm not saying the hour long program should teach them multidimensional arrays or hashes of hashes. In this hour the user is not being exposed to the concept of a variable at all, which is a critical concept for programming.

Is it possible that you are confusing "The Hour of Code" with something else? Don't bother with more fallacy to support your position, it wastes my time and surely won't change my position.

Re:Yeah, no ...

[s.petry]

Got it AC, you are of the belief that writing a flowchart is the same thing as writing code. As to your last line, simply "duh". As good as Bordland Delphi was (way better than MS Visual C/Basic) I still had to understand "programming" to write a "program".

Re:Yeah, no ...

[cryptizard]

Oh sorry, I was speaking in reference to the "beyond hour of code" link they have to code.org, which is a ~20 hour course for K-8th grade students. It continues the "puzzle programming" tutorial with variables, loops and functions. I was talking about Scratch because it is the basis for the puzzle programming in both courses.

Wait what ?

[fluffythdestroy]

They had computer 100 years ago ?

Re:Wait what ?

[BringsApples]

Yeah I was going to say basically the same thing. I imagine that they kept the number down to 100 (they could have used the same logic to say a trillion years) in order to keep it in some perspective so that the kids themselves didn't just say, "pffft..."

Re:Wait what ?

[Browzer]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_computer_science

Now who will unteach them?

[MouseTheLuckyDog]

All the mistakes those guys taught them. I figure it will take at least 10 hours.

Re:Now who will unteach them?

[BringsApples]

That was the point of them doing this, to get at kids while their minds are still forming.

Re:Now who will unteach them?

[MouseTheLuckyDog]

In other words pervert their minds so that they can become PHBs.

Re:Now who will unteach them?

[BringsApples]

PentHouse Bunnies?

Just Cover for the Real Agenda

[ebno-10db]

'Yes, we can all agree that this week's big Hour of Code initiative is a publicity stunt,' writes the Mercury News' Mike Cassidy, 'but you know what? A publicity stunt is exactly what we need.'

Need for what? It's just a way to deflect attention from the real agenda of h1bsrus.org. No, even worse, to convince people that there really is a shortage of programmers, and gosh we're trying to get more Americans to learn it (bonus points for your propaganda if they're minorities), but it takes time, and so we really really need to up the H-1B quota (temporarily, of course) by a million or whatever they want (ask for a million - settle for a half).

I can understand Zuck, et al, spouting propaganda to get out of their personally horrid underprivileged conditions, but what annoys me is the media buying into this crap. How about a little counterpoint that the only indications of a programmer shortage are the testimonials of people with a serious vested interest, and not any of those silly objective facts. Forget programming - what they really need to teach in schools is critical thinking.

Re:Just Cover for the Real Agenda

[CodeBuster]

I can understand Zuck, et al, spouting propaganda to get out of their personally horrid underprivileged conditions

Underprivileged? Zuck was the very definition of privilege and advantage when growing up. His background was upper middle class at the very least.

what they really need to teach in schools is critical thinking.

That doesn't suit the purposes of the ruling class and so is not taught. The last thing they want is for the future peons of America to think for themselves critically instead of believing all of the marketing, advertising and bullshit that the elite and their corporations plan to dump in their laps.

Re:Just Cover for the Real Agenda

[ebno-10db]

Perhaps the child labor laws are overly restrictive, but in most states you also have to graduate from grade school before seeking full-time employment.

Re:Just Cover for the Real Agenda

[ebno-10db]

Underprivileged? Zuck was the very definition of privilege and advantage when growing up. His background was upper middle class at the very least.

One word: sarcasm.

And, even if he was born and raised the poorest of the poor, I dare say he's doing well enough now not to have to make a few bucks more by screwing his fellow citizens.

Re:Just Cover for the Real Agenda

[CodeBuster]

I dare say he's doing well enough now not to have to make a few bucks more by screwing his fellow citizens.

It's not about money for these Silicon Valley types. Oh sure, they want enough for their lifestyle, gadgets and projects but beyond a certain point money doesn't satisfy them. Money to those guys is a means to an end and the end which they seek is power to meddle in the lives of others. People like Zuckerberg want to remake the world as they see fit. They consider themselves to be superior to the rest of us and have no qualms about using unsavory methods to achieve their "enlightened" goals. I would much prefer that they simply took their money and enjoyed it in private, without involving those of us who aren't willing to participate, but no they have to spend it on meddling with the "imperfect" society. Mark and his H1-B supporters can go to hell as far as I'm concerned. Let them move to India if they want cheap workers, but I'll be damned if I'd vote for anyone who supported Zuckerberg and his H1-B ambitions.

confused...

[dAzED1]

I went to high school between 1987-91, and somewhere in there (I think it was my softmore year?) there was a computer class. We learned BASIC on computers which had green characters on a black screen (no windows), and if I recall used 8.5" floppies. There were also some TRS-80s there, but I didn't use them there.

Now personally, since my father owned a VAR that sold minis and mains by IBM, I had already had experience with PCs for many years by then. But that was literally over 20 years ago, in a mandatory high school class.

Was that really that unusual? 20 years later has the rest of the US not caught up with where my high school - in a town of 40k (at the time) - was? If so, then I have a new appreciation for the place...

Re:confused...

[fldsofglry]

Yep, I'd say that was unusual. Nice humblebrag.

Re:confused...

[Feynman]

I'm not sure how unusual it was, but my 7th grade science teacher was doing a BASIC unit using TRS-80s in 1987, too--in a town of 12k.

Re:It is quite sad.

[ebno-10db]

Programming is not a fundamental skill or subject, and teaches nothing that can't be taught with a number of other subjects, like math (dons Nomex undies). I have no objection to teaching it in schools, and it may even be useful for a few people, but let's not get carried away with the self importance, shall we?

Re:Premature

[ebno-10db]

That's like saying maybe a few of the students who actually spent 100 years learning engineering would be able to create a perpetual motion machine.

Programming != Computer science

[Anonymous Coward]

Does this even need to be said?

Re:Programming != Computer science

[oh_my_080980980]

Apparently it does, because these "geniuses" believe it's the same thing.

Makes perfect sense

[sl4shd0rk]

Computers have not been ubiquitous enough to warrant any kind of mainstream interest since about the past 20 years. Besides that, Gates and Zuckerberg (et al) have been pimping "hour of code" like a 2bit whore for the past few weeks. Dunno what their agenda is but I don't really trust either of them all that much.

Ahh Stupid sensational math.

[jellomizer]

Math the media like to show that really doesn't mean much.
1. Well not too many people were studying computer science back in 1913.
2. Computer Science didn't really become a popular major until the 1980's
3. General Population growth and increase in literacy world wide.
4. Growth to IT Demand in large countries India and China.

So yes, while the number is right, it isn't really that useful.
I much rather see the breakdown of demographics of those three days and track their professional changes over a period of time.

But it still a good thing

[Anonymous Coward]

I got all the way to college without any interest in CS (1980-ish). My older sister insisted "you need to take a programming class" so I added it to my schedule. 30+ years later I'm still programming.
Sometimes the most important thing making someone realize "I can DO that?" I like the idea that kids from "educational averse" cultures are being exposed to CS.

Re:But it still a good thing

[ebno-10db]

My older sister insisted "you need to take a programming class" so I added it to my schedule. 30+ years later I'm still programming.

After 30 years you should stop blaming your sister.

Re:But it still a good thing

[Darinbob]

But programming is not computer science. You can program for fun and still have no interest in computer science.

Nope Nope Nope

[Anonymous Coward]

First, of course it's possible for a newcomer to learn "all this". You took years to learn it piecemeal, but they'll learn it all in a week or a semester. Within a year or two, they'll be taking your job as you slip into irrelevance.

But, the new kids on the block won't learn all this because they don't have to. The cloud movement is integrating and automating the manual setup and backup labor that you are referring to. The newcomers simply check the boxes for the services they want and click go. Their coding, if they code, is being done with very high level languages and huge frameworks that makes your PHP work look like assembly language.

Check your six, you're under siege.

Re:Nope Nope Nope

[weilawei]

Doing that might make you a good monkey--but as someone who's been programming virtually since his first memories (Commodore 64 on the floor, sneaking out in the middle of the night, just barely after I could read), it's not the sky. At some point you run into the fact that you can't do anything really original without pushing yourself way beyond the point-and-click approach. This is why I still push myself to improve my math skills, to improve my understanding of physics and chemistry, to learn new fields and new tools. If you want to do something really, truly interesting, you're going to wind up way down the rabbit hole, even if it takes you 20+ years. The only problem is that you can lead plenty of horses to water, but a lot of horses won't drink unless you lead them there, much less seek it on their own. I don't learn for a degree or a certificate or a promotion: I learn because it makes me a better human.

A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.

-RAH

Seling to iPhone users only or selling to everyone

[tepples]

If they are programming iOS stand alone apps, why would they need to do anything else?

Because *poof* the next big thing came along. Sometimes you can earn more money by developing both an iOS version of an application and an Android version of an application. On the other hand, if every company you plan to work for is big enough to have a separate Android specialist, there's less of a urgent need to broaden your skill set.

Re:Premature

[i kan reed]

Something about your analogy bothers me.

I mean, translating it to another field:

"Maybe a few of the students who actually spent 100 years learning history would be able to cause the holocaust."
or
"Maybe a few of the students who actually spent 100 years learning music would be able to write dubstep"
or
"Maybe a few of the students who actually spent 100 years learning nuclear engineering would be able to make Chernobyl"

Apps are something you can learn to make

[tepples]

But people need the high-level tutorial in order to get over the notion that apps are "something someone else makes in some mysterious way". Perhaps if more people had gone through such a tutorial, they might not flock to locked-down Apple/Microsoft devices as easily.

Re:Apps are something you can learn to make

[Sarten-X]

Exactly.

I'm involved in a Venture program emphasizing STEM careers. A major focus of our program is "thinking like an engineer". We want the kids to realize that everything complicated is just a collection of simpler parts (until you get small enough), and those simpler parts are generally designed by humans, so there's no good reason why they can't be the ones designing in the future.

Re:Apps are something you can learn to make

[ebno-10db]

A major focus of our program is "thinking like an engineer".

You can't teach being brain dead - that's a skill I was born with.

for some definition of "learned"

[larry bagina]

learning _about_ CS, maybe, but certainly not learning CS. I'm sure more people learn abount chemistry from Breaking Bad than from your local University's graduate school.

Crappy math or did we forget the 1980's again?

[xxxJonBoyxxx]

I remember covering BASIC in multiple subjects, during multiple years, in elementary school...and that was a pretty common occurrence. If the "hour of code" counts...I'm not sure how it you be anything more than 1.5-2x larger than US education's sustained BASIC pitch in the 1980s.

Honestly I wish it was Software Engineering

[NotSoHeavyD3]

I wish they'd teach most people Software Engineering techniques instead. Basically I mean write code that is maintainable. IE actually write functions, use templates/generics, don't use magic numbers, don't have pieces of code for object A in object B, ETC.

Re:Honestly I wish it was Software Engineering

[weilawei]

Yep. I started out as a 4 year old kid, writing the shittiest, stupidest BASIC code you can imagine on a Commodore 64. You know what my first program did? It called a builtin routine to change the color of the screen. Then I learned to make it change to many different colors. It went from there. Software engineering was something I really started to get, about 14 years later (I never had a teacher), when I read some PHP (yuck) that was brilliantly put together. Clean, concise, easy-to-grasp, and best of all, it worked. Anyone can write bad code in any language--but it takes years of experience to write good code in a bad language. I knew right there that I wanted to write code that was on that level of good and it did a huge part to change my perspective. Software engineering is the icing on the cake, not the primary goal.

Re:Honestly I wish it was Software Engineering

[NotSoHeavyD3]

The thing though is that I've seen people with experience write absolute shit code. (No comments, magic numbers, functions that are thousands of lines long.) I guess I lucked out when my first coding job the guy in charge kept pointing out all the shit things I was doing. (I thought he was a jack ass at the time but now, he was fucking right, the things I was doing was making it less readable.) I guess the big thing is that you have the attitude that you want to learn from others how to do it better.(The people that I see write shit code even though they've got experience don't want to learn from anybody else and won't listen.)

Programming leads to logic, which leads to...

[tepples]

Forget programming - what they really need to teach in schools is critical thinking.

Programming is one way of building the logic skills that one needs in order to learn critical thinking.

Re:Programming leads to logic, which leads to...

[ebno-10db]

Programming is one way of building the logic skills that one needs in order to learn critical thinking.

Yes, and also very good at teaching people to define things precisely (what you want a program to do, etc.). I think that's a useful skill - I especially think that after dealing with people who can't do it to save their lives (I'm sure many programmers share that frustration).

I've no objection to teaching kids how to program. It's not a fundamental skill or subject, but it can still be useful. My problem is with the fact that this is nothing more than a publicity stunt to give a positive image to the real agenda, and that "journalists" either can't or won't think critically enough to understand and say that. It's all "ooh, look at the wonderful thing they're doing for the children". Even to the extent that "journalists" recognize that it's a publicity stunt, they consider it a good thing and don't link it in any way to the real agenda. For example, the Mercury News column makes no mention of Zuck's lobbying organization, and happily regurgitates unfounded statements like "the United States is facing a growing shortage of skilled programmers".

The one thing about this I have to grudgingly admire is that these people are propaganda geniuses. They've got the friggin' president giving cover to their real agenda (maybe not so surprising - he's been bought and paid for anyway).

Oh joy

[smooth wombat]

Just what we need. More people putting out more crappy code. As if a large segment of programmers aren't already overpaid for the spaghetti they produce.

We don't need MORE programmers, we need BETTER programmers. There are enough programmers in existence (contrary to what those in the industry will claim) yet the abysmal state of software shows how poorly these people perform.

I would have no problem with a company paying a programmer $250K IF that programmer could produce good code on a daily basis. Instead, we have hordes of overpriced, egotistical, self-important hacks who believe they're worth more than they're paid and the shit we are forced to put up with every day proves it.

Re:Oh joy

[freeze128]

I would have no problem with a company paying a programmer $250K IF that programmer could produce good code on a daily basis.

I'm curious... Are you a CTO, or a programmer?

I, too, would have no problem with a company paying a programmer $250K *IF* that programmer was ME.

Re:Oh joy

[smooth wombat]

Neither. I'm the guy who gets called on to fix the problems created by CTOs and programmers or find ways around the problems created by CTOs and programmers.

Re:Oh joy

[Anonymous Coward]

Do you fix it with programming?
Or are you one of those "architect" consultants that drops a few UML diagrams on a desk and calls it a day?

How do you fix problems caused by programmers without any programming yourself.... Wait are you a salesman?

Re:Oh joy

[weilawei]

Last I checked, most companies don't want good code, they want code written yesterday, bugs and quality be damned, so long as they can ship something on an unrealistic deadline. Permacrunchtime. That said, the most brilliant idea with no execution is virtually worthless--but there should always be some time to go back and put the polish on.

Re:Oh joy

[cryptizard]

What does this have to do with the article? People can't learn to produce good code if they have never heard of computer science. It has to happen in steps. The biggest benefit from code.org is that a large population of people who would have never been exposed to CS in the first place (including many underrepresented minorities) are getting a chance to experience it and see that it can be a fun and potentially lucrative job.

Re:Oh joy

[smooth wombat]

What this demonstration does is make people believe they are coders. I've taken a few coding classes and while I can probably write a 'Hello World' if pressed, there is no way in this universe, and probably the next one, that I could code anything else. For whatever reason, whether I truly can't code or I've convinced myself I can't code, I can't.

This course does the opposite. It gives people the impression they can code. Some will go on to take CS courses and some of those will get their degrees, but of that remainder, only a small fraction will be good coders. The problem is, the rest, while still graduating, will get jobs in coding and we end up where we are now: abysmal code being thrown at end-users from every direction.

I know it sounds like the chicken and egg (or, how can you get experience if no one gives you the opportunity because you don't have experience?) but there has to be a better way to get good coders so we don't keep performing deja vu all over again (my apologies to Yogi Berra).

Re:Oh joy

[cryptizard]

You could say that about anything though. Kids who learn how to add and subtract thing they can do math. Well, they kind of can, and these kids can kind of code. I understand where you're coming from, but I don't think there is necessarily more of a problem with code.org than any other subject.

Why is a "publicity stunt" needed?

[korbulon]

Apart from the fact that this whole thing is a horseshit, cynical gimmick designed to drum up public support for big IT corporations - especially in light of all the recent privacy and NSA scandals - under the guise of teaching inner-city yoots (because, gosh darnit, they CARE ) , there is also the entirely unforeseen side benefit of potentially creating a massive influx of new coders into the job market who will serve to fill the ranks of existing code monkeys who provide the sort of cheap and easily fireable labor that American corporations seems to crave so much..

Excellent tool

[CODiNE]

I showed this to 4 kids, 2 girls and 2 boys aged 6 to 12. They all had a great time with it and one girl is already doing the extended lessons drawing geometrical figures.

Maybe none of them will become programmers but they all got that exposure and have the seed planted that they COULD if they worked at it. More importantly, they were motivated to learn something on their own.

some major contradictions here

[peter303]

1) If CS is so easy to learn, then why are software projects so hard? Like the crapwre that comes out of FB and healthware.gov?
2) If CS so easy easy to learn and so lucrative, why is there a so-called shorter of software engineers?

Re:some major contradictions here

[bunratty]

Messing around with model rockets is easy. Actually getting a rocket to the moon is hard.

Re:some major contradictions here

[weilawei]

In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, theory and practice are nothing alike.

Re:some major contradictions here

[sydneyfong]

1. Because those sites get a crap ton of users. You don't just build a site, you have to adjust for number of users which is difficult.

A billion registered users.
Suppose each of them visit the site once every week (come on it's not Facebook)
Each time visiting 20 pages, perhaps each page has ~10 images

1000000000 / (7*24*60*60*20*10)
~= 8.27 requests per second.

Unless you're doing really expensive operations, most modern servers can handle that kind of load and more.

Sure, it doesn't say anything about spikes, which is a harder problem. But usually the claims about server load of having so damn many users is really exaggerated.

(Of course, once you even *attempt* to *scale* beyond the single server - single point of failure model, you'd need somebody who's experienced enough not to shoot themselves in the foot trying.)

Re:some major contradictions here

[sydneyfong]

Damn.

1000000000 / (7*24*60*60) * 20*10
= 330687

Damn...
who has mod points to mod me to oblivion?

Pompano Beach is the New Silicon Valley?

[theodp]

Hmmm...the #1 city in the world on the leader board is Pompano Beach (FL), and Everett (WA?) is beating NYC, according to the Leaderboard.

Great!

[AftanGustur]

Now give them all work at Microsoft as programmers!

Internal vs. external apps

[tepples]

My company has an internal proprietary app that has an iOS front end

Touché. If you're only working on internal applications on the developer enterprise program, that's another factor reducing the urgent need to broaden your skill set, I'll grant.

And how do I get on the job experience programming Android in an iOS/MS shop?

That depends on whether your company also wants to produce an external application. I understand you're already set up to publish an iOS application, but your company probably doesn't want to turn away revenue from potential customers just because their phone isn't Apple.

Re:Internal vs. external apps

[Hognoxious]

but your company probably doesn't want to turn away revenue from potential customers just because their phone isn't Apple.

What if they manufacture butt-plugs?

Re:Wow..

[oh_my_080980980]

Exactly. The author interchanges Computer Science and Computer Programmer. The two are not the same.

If you want to act, move

[tepples]

We want the kids to realize that everything complicated is just a collection of simpler parts (until you get small enough), and those simpler parts are generally designed by humans, so there's no good reason why they can't be the ones designing in the future.

Other than they happen to live several states away from the established companies that do such designing. If you want to act in a Broadway play, you have to move to New York. If you want to act in a Hollywood film, you have to move to Los Angeles. I can think of a few Slashdot users who would claim that people who have no way to move to where a trade is practiced shouldn't even bother learning the trade.

Re:If you want to act, move

[ebno-10db]

Maybe someday people in Silicon Valley will look at Google maps and realize that there are parts of the country outside the Bay Area. It would also do much to alleviate the supposed shortage of good programmers.

Re:If you want to act, move

[weilawei]

This, this, this, a million times, this. The real benefit of programming is gaining the ability to think in multiple modes, all of them logical, and to cope with solving problems that might have seemed previously intractable.

More bullshit from folks who want cheap labor

[Virtucon]

Wow, so you hold a seminar to show people what it's like. You give them a few tools, show them a couple of things and that immediately makes them Senior Software Engineers ready to tackle any business problem? No, it's more propaganda from two chodes who want to cheapen the profession. Software Development and Engineering takes years of practice to get right, sure you can teach mechanics in a few months and some would argue you can learn language X in 30 days but it's the application and knowing to use what tool at what time. Here's what's missing in this, did Gates and Fuckerberg hire any of these whiz kids after the class? Not one huh? Well Billy Bob and Fuckerberg put your money where your mouth is! If you think you can teach somebody in a few hours to be a developer, hire them give them a salary, benefits and a cube and give them a chance to prove themselves.

Re:More bullshit from folks who want cheap labor

[kjshark]

That's like criticizing a music teacher because his student doesn't sound like Eric Clapton after one lesson. You're not expected to become proficient after one lesson, however the lesson was indeed a small step towards that goal. What's wrong with that ?

Re:More bullshit from folks who want cheap labor

[Virtucon]

that's my point. After all of this bullshit about how there aren't enough software developers in this country you now have two huge H1B trolls out there banging the drum to get more people to write code. Most people wouldn't want to write code, they'd rather play XBOX or bet on the stock market or do something else. That's the whole point, not everybody is good at a particular field of study or chooses it as a career. What Fuckerberg and Billy Bob want is to say "Hey look, we tried here and well nobody in this country is good enough or wants to do it. Therefore we need more H1B visas so we can import more workers of course at lower wages." The trouble is a lot of software developers have been let go and are still looking for work out there so what's exactly the problem they're trying to solve? Oh they don't want to pay people who are already here or aren't in their mold, so called "overqualified" candidates.. Well forget that you have 20 years of Software in C, C++, Java, we want this H1B that we can get for half of that who won't challenge our business model and will do everything we tell them. Also college students go into fields where they have a good probability of making a living afterwards, if Software is now a low cost talent game where everybody can do it then you're less likely to find people going into that field. They'll probably go into Healthcare where they have a guaranteed six figure income.
There's nothing wrong with teaching CS in schools and trying to promote it, no question about that but it's just these two leading the charge have ulterior motives and that's to force their labor costs down and frankly that's promoting CS for the wrong reason.

Re:More bullshit from folks who want cheap labor

[cryptizard]

That's the whole point, not everybody is good at a particular field of study or chooses it as a career.

What you don't seem to understand is that many, many people who are never exposed to CS in the first place and so they can't make an informed decision about their potential career. That is the gap code.org is trying to fill. If, along the way, they teach some kids procedural thinking skills and a little math, all the better.

Re:More bullshit from folks who want cheap labor

[Virtucon]

No, Code.org is a front to allow Fuckerberg and Billy Bob Gates to claim that there's a lack of talent in this country and that H1B Visas should be increased.

Read the two citations in my previous post. This isn't about developing talent it's about pushing their alternate agenda. I've taught programming to students for a time and yes, it can be rewarding but that was in a casual learning environment. I do believe one or two have careers in the profession but that's beside the point. You always have to look for ulterior motives when talking about high tech execs who have lobbied, for years, for an increase in H1B candidates and now all of a sudden there's a mad rush for "We need more software developers here" while there are thousands out of work who already have the skills. Think of it as "Batman Returns" where Max Shreck wants to build a power plant, all the while it's a capacitor to store energy, consume it and not to produce it. At one point Bruce Wayne points out that there's already a surplus of power so why the new plant? We have a surplus of talent in this country, it's just that these two want what WalMart has, a minimum wage labor force yet still build their products and rake in billions. Another analogy is that you want a Ferrari but you have only $10,000 to spend so you state "There are no Ferraris for sale" when in fact if you increased your budget, you'd find that there were a lot for sale you're just looking too get one too cheaply.

Re:More bullshit from folks who want cheap labor

[cryptizard]

That doesn't make a whole lot of sense though. Everyone knows that doctors make a lot of money, yet there isn't a huge surplus of doctors. If it really is that easy to be a programmer then people probably shouldn't be getting paid as much as they are. If, instead, it is a difficult thing which requires years of training, then introducing more people to it won't drastically change anything besides maybe increasing the levels of underrepresented minorities (a very good thing). It seems like they are just trying to rectify a market imbalance caused by the fact that many people are not aware of what CS is and what programming jobs entail. Eventually we would reach an equilibrium where people are paid a fair value for the work and skills involved.

Re:More bullshit from folks who want cheap labor

[Virtucon]

That doesn't make a whole lot of sense though. Everyone knows that doctors make a lot of money, yet there isn't a huge surplus of doctors.

That's because they have the Universities and the AMA regulating how many doctors actually get into the profession. Also the Government was afraid that there would be a surplus of doctors a few years ago and asked that fewer go through the program. I won't get into it but Doctor pay is probably tied to what they do, years of education, residency and the overhead associated with it.

If it really is that easy to be a programmer then people probably shouldn't be getting paid as much as they are. If, instead, it is a difficult thing which requires years of training, then introducing more people to it won't drastically change anything besides maybe increasing the levels of underrepresented minorities (a very good thing).

That's what I've saying, it's much more than "hey, learn javascript and you're done." And it's not purely logical thinking, you have to have creativity as well and I think it's more art than science anyway but that's a beer discussion. As for minorities are you saying you favor a quota system? I believe in equal opportunity but I'll point out that a lot of very, very successful high tech companies are run buy people who would be considered to be from minority groups. So that argument falls on deaf ears here. I don't care if the person is white, green, black, brown or tan if they have the skills and the aptitude to learn and stick with it then they should be given a chance. That doesn't mean however that if there's a candidate who's over 80 weeks on his unemployment looking for the same position; that person should be considered as well and abolish this notion of "over qualification" if you did that I think you'd see these two reprobates wouldn't have a leg to stand on. So teach whoever wants to be taught how to code but don't start telling me that after "Hello World" and all the dead bits that gave their existence to writing them makes these neophytes software developers and that Fuckerberg and Billy Bob are doing it out of the goodness of their heart. They want developers, sure they want a system where they make the rules, where they control the market forces meaning more H1Bs which drive down labor costs and screw over resident workers and flood the market with "so-called" talent. When that talent falls flat on its face, they'll go crying to DC to get more H1Bs. If you have an aptitude or a desire to write code, go write code and I suggest strongly that everybody stay the fuck away from these two because you'll just be a pawn in their little game.

  It seems like they are just trying to rectify a market imbalance caused by the fact that many people are not aware of what CS is and what programming jobs entail. Eventually we would reach an equilibrium where people are paid a fair value for the work and skills involved.

Re:Look at how many new CS applicants there are!

[Anonymous Coward]

Hello there CS grad! Yes, we will hire you but you will work for pennies now.

It's much worse than your sadly realistic attitude of employers these days. The truth is the employers want fully trained in their specific technological mix and business domain with at least an undergraduate degree in computer science, preferably a graduate or post-graduate degree, and a decade of experience in each of the tools which employer's human resources drones call skills. Oh by the way the salary offered is so low that the employers ask the applicant to state their desired current salary as part of the email pre-screening charade.

If I had it to do over again I would never have pursued a career in IT. After 20 years in many careers your experience would be highly sought but not in IT nor for the most part software/application development. Doctors, lawyers, dentists, nurses, butchers, criminals all have better career longevity.

Constant quality / number of users

[Gothmolly]

More is not better, when every new comp sci kid comes out thinking that Java is the best thing ever, 64GB of RAM is a minimum, and worrying about scalability is for nerds. Programming != Computer Science.

Re:Constant quality / number of users

[weilawei]

Nope, but programming is a form of applied problem solving, and that is a valuable skill.

It was a success

[bhlowe]

I can report that my wife's 7th and 8th grade science classes LOVED the day of code program. Many started out thinking it was impossible to do any coding.. and ended up making some great discoveries. All the kids wanted to stay in the class and "code" rather than go out an play and eat lunch. At least for my wife's school, it was a huge success and hopefully some of the kids will be drawn into a profession they love...

Little knowledge is dangerous.

[140Mandak262Jamuna]

Imagine all those pointy haired bosses who always felt they are far too smart and Dilberts are just coding monkeys typing gibberish and getting paid for it. Now they will go through this one hour of coding, fancy themselves to be "code warriors", demand password and fix web sites and data bases. What could go wrong?

Boss: What is the spec on the site?

Code Monkey: 7 million users, spending about 6000$ each of their own money or governments subsidy. About 42 billion dollars in transactions. That is not counting people directed to other programs. About 70 million window shoppers.

Boss: Hide the window shopping. Don't want them to get sticker shock. No one should see the price without subsidy.

Code Monkey: We are just six weeks from going live. Simply no time to test... The load estimate itself...

Boss: I have taught myself coding in just one hour. Turn in the admin password, and security will let you in this weeked for you to collect your personal effects from your office.

Re:Little knowledge is dangerous.

[cryptizard]

Oh man that is totally a thing that is going to happen, you are so smart. In fact, we should stop anyone from learning CS in the first place unless they commit ahead of time to being a fully trained software engineer (deviation penalized by jail time of course). That is the only way to prevent horrible situations like this.

Re:Little knowledge is dangerous.

[Skreems]

I've learned from experience that a bad boss will second-guess programmers whether they think they know coding or not. If anything, learning some coding should help reduce the problem, because the ones who DON'T know any coding don't even have the training to picture any of the mechanics of what their employees are doing.

Either way, the "it's only doing x, why does it take 3 weeks?" syndrome is endemic to managers with poor delegation skills and problems with trust, regardless of coding skill.

100 years?

[ai4px]

Did we have computers 100 years ago? Perhaps a better headline would have been more students learn cs in 3 days than past 1000 years OR more students learn cs in 3 days than since the dawn of mankind.

easy on the derision

[kencurry]

Some points to be made:

1. Zuckerburg and Gates only "back" this code.org, they didn't write the hyperbole in the story copy.
2. This was a publicity stunt for sure, but it was targeted for young school aged kids to get exposure to how a computer really works. I wish my kids had it at their school but apparently they did not. 99% will forget it in a week, but it may spark some deeper interests later in life. This is always a good thing
3. The slashdot summary is not "Pollyanna" on the topic; just reporting that it happened. So no, Slashdot is not on the slippery slope to foolishness hell.

Days of music

[istartedi]

People who think you can learn CS in a few days should be punished by giving the same kids two days of music, and then having their playback devices loaded with nothing but the resulting tunes.

Please stop teaching people to code

[meta-monkey]

We, the employed (or employment-seeking) coders of the world do not want more coders. It's one of the last jobs you can actually sort of get paid a living wage for. The last thing we need is competition.

Hotbeds vs. coldbeds

[tepples]

Maybe someday people in Silicon Valley will look at Google maps and realize that there are parts of the country outside the Bay Area.

I know, like Austin, Boston, or Seattle. The point of that discussion was that if someone wants to program video games, he needs to move somewhere like Austin, Boston, or Seattle, and get a job there. If he can't, he should get into a trade other than game programming. It's not greater San Francisco vs. rest of world; it's just hotbeds of industry vs. coldbeds.

Re:Hotbeds vs. coldbeds

[ebno-10db]

You forgot Pittsburgh (I always liked that one because it seems so incongruous), not to mention other smaller tech hubs, like Boulder, S. Florida, etc. In fact most metropolitan areas have at least some jobs. Seems like these computer things are catching on.

I pick on SV because it's so provincial. By contrast, I never got the feeling in Boston for example, that they were unaware of the rest of the country, or unaware there was serious work elsewhere. Obviously SV is the biggest tech center in the country, but it's not the be all and end all. VC's don't seem to like anything that takes more than an hour to drive to. Have they heard about these newfangled jet airplanes? Communicating by phone, or even this hot new thing called the Internets?

More importantly, SV companies seem to be the ones that scream the loudest about the supposed programmer shortage and the need for more H-1B's. If you can't find enough people in SV, or the costs or too high, then look somewhere else. Much of the reason that you can't find more people there is that the cost of living is too high. What about letting SV become more urbanized? That's the usual response to high real estate demand in a small area. Don't ask for national policy to be changed just to benefit one small area of the country.

On 'Real' Infrastructure (-1 Off-topic but Hey)

[TheRealHocusLocus]

I'm sitting here all warm and comfy in my home-bubble really excited about the burgeoning renaissance of intellectual prowess exhibited by today's youth as they prepare themselves to march boldly into the information age to create virtual solutions and clever apps to solve every day problems.

But I also just spent the last week fixing main breaks. It could be a small seep or a raging river, but you have to locate the main, drill holes along it and poke down to discover where the most water is escaping, then jackhammer the street and dig down beside it, careful to avoid other utilities. Once the leak is exposed you must decide whether the pump will keep up and you can clamp it under pressure or shut it down. Either way there are pitfalls -- shutting it changes pressure and direction of flow in the system, releasing internal crust buildup in pipes and making water 'dirty', and the valves might not have been operated in years and may be in the same shape as the pipes. Leaving pressure up it is possible that the pipe will blow out in front of you as you clean off the outer crust to clamp it, filling up the hole quickly. Yesterday there were two split-rounds too close to the bells where iron pipes joined, requiring a double notch to be scored at the bottom so the bottom of the pipe is broken out with a sledgehammer (releasing more water into the hole) to allow the bell section to be cut out, measured and a short pipe stub to be inserted, all held snug with a 30-inch steel and rubber clamp. Eventually as the clamp is tightened the torrent becomes a spray, then a trickle, then it stops. The pumps gain and the cold water (up to your waist) subsides and you can climb up and out to say hello to the wind chill factor. People need to do things like this in order to keep the water flowing from the tap.

Most of North America's drinkable water is delivered through pressure systems with iron pipes such as these. There is a move to plastic pipe (which is more chemically stable but has its own issues with taps and joints)...

I am not trying to be incorrigible here, I would just like to remind everyone that there was a time less then 100 years ago when the building of water and sewer and electrical infrastructure was the exciting topic of the day. As often discussed by every day people as data communication is today. The pipes and wires that deliver our infrastructure are aging, and often the tools and techniques available to repair them are little changed from when they were first built out into the wilderness.

To the young coders of tomorrow I would suggest this: while you honing your analytical skills in the information age, take a walk through your city or town and try to see it as it was 50, 100 years ago. This is only yesterday in human terms. There are amazing feats of engineering surrounding you that have been achieved by those who have come before, and in some critical areas innovation has slowed or stopped.

If only one or two in ten of you should choose a path that leads into some practical engineering field, bringing new thinking (and a good measure of resolve) it might stem the signs of decay that are only now becoming evident. Look for them and you will find these signs. They are merely problems, help us to solve them.

In order to do this you will have to develop prowess with electrics and electronics and fluids and chemicals and tools, materials science. You will need to find a way to bring industrial manufacture back to our shores, because (for what ever reason) it has mostly left, and that is not a good thing. You will have to devote a considerable amount of effort to develop energy sources that will work for everyone, not just the few who can afford to buy some this-or-that thing.

In short, if Modern Civilization follows you home and you decide to keep it... make sure you have the necessary skill and motivation to keep it alive and healthy. Or some day in the not-too-distant future the lights (and Internet) might go out, and we might spill out of

More PR spin has been spewed in the last 3 days

[WillAffleckUW]

Than in the century before it.

Just ask the PR spin doctors who can't code their way out of a bread basket.

Re:It is quite sad.

[weilawei]

Programming a computer may not be a fundamental skill, but it is an exercise in applied problem solving. You're more likely to get exposure to critical thinking in a CS class these days than you are to find a class on basic critical thinking and logic in schools these days. Sure, I think we should push it harder in math--but getting the kid started early is a huge portion of the battle. Your parents didn't just throw you in the deep end without floaties when you learned to swim, did they?

Re:The focus should be on logical thinking

[weilawei]

I learned a vast amount about logical thinking by being forced to. The machine doesn't do what you want, it does what it's told. You must be thinking of codemonkeys.

Re:participate != learn

[weilawei]

No, it doesn't. But practice makes perfect, and these MOOCs make it more accessible. When my SO and I have family over, her nieces always want to "play" Khan Academy. I've never seen kids so excited to do "boring old fuddy duddy" math. As a result, they're ahead of their peers who don't do this stuff.

Mark should hire then all!

[peter303]

Could inprove the qality of Facebook! ;-)

Re:Eternal September

[cryptizard]

Or maybe it will teach kids a bit of problem solving skills and critical thinking, all the while exposing underrepresented minorities to CS and giving them potential path to a successful career that they otherwise might not have had. Oh and it's all free.

You get a trophy for participation.

[viperidaenz]

There is a big different between participating in something and actually learning something.

It reminds me of schools handing out certificates of participation in athletics days. Congratulations, you know how to walk! Literally everybody else who tried was better than you but congrats anyway!

Re:Behold: Coding Fundamentalists

[viperidaenz]

We'll always be writing code.

Humans barely understand other humans. How do you expect humans to make a machine that can do better?
Writing code is the easy part of software development.
If we get to the 23rd century and we're using natural language to command magic-nobody-knows-how-they-work robots I'm glad I'll be dead by then.
Endlessly clarifying everything you say to a machine would be the most tedious thing I can imagine. Since the real world is not a finite state machine, there will always be an endless list of clarifications to be made.

Ciao, bambino!

Who are you really? Frostini?

Gap between what users say and mean

[tepples]

A computer does what the user says, not what the user means, and I'll grant that there's often a fairly substantial gap between the two. PEBKAC, in essence, means the user isn't saying what he means. It's the job of user experience designers to make it easier for the user to say what he means.

Re:Gap between what users say and mean

[Hognoxious]

A computer does what the user says, not what the user means, and I'll grant that there's often a fairly substantial gap between the two.

Right. Because there's no such thing as software with bugs.

Knowing what a program means

[tepples]

That's still a case of the user not knowing what he means. When the user loads a program that contains bugs onto a machine, the user is in effect saying to execute the bugs. Part of the goal of the free software movement is making it possible for the user to know what he means, as binary-only software suffers from indeterminacy.

Re:Wow..

[Hognoxious]

The only way the numbers make sense is if this 3 day course equals a 4 year degree.

It would make some sense if 300 people studying for 3 days was the same as 1 person studying for 900. They could claim to have produced however many CS grad equivalents that works out to.

Note the "if".

100 yrs ago computers didn't exist

[drydem]

100 years ago computer science did not exist. The first computer that accepted code was made 70 years ago (ENiAC). The Alan Turing's basic concept for Computer Science was not published until 1936 - 77 years ago. The number of lines of code is not a true value of a computer coder. And 400,000 million lines of the same printf("hello world") really isn't any more different from a chimpanzee typing "S" a million times on a type writer. Code development is hierarchal activity-venture(not parallel) and usable code is limited how many programmers can be coordinated to work together to solve a problem Anything else is just the Infinite Monkey Theorem - where one puts millions and millions of chimpanzees in front of a computer desktop and waits (forever) for them to write the next killer app of Apple. Most people that don't code - underestimate the difficulty and emotionally intense of real world computer development. Coding is more like ghost writing or being a language translator because a programmer-analyst is always trying to write what others want to hear or read (regardless of how well his target audience is able to communicate) - in larger projects people butt heads and moving forward can be problematic at times. So not only do you need an intellectual IQ higher than a monkey - you need the emotional IQ of a saint at times..