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Memo To Parents and Society: Teen Social Media "Addiction" Is Your Fault

FuzzNugget writes "Wired presents this damning perspective on so-called social media addiction: 'If kids can't socialize, who should parents blame? Simple: They should blame themselves. This is the argument advanced in It's Complicated: The Social Lives of Networked Teens, by Microsoft researcher Danah Boyd. Boyd ... has spent a decade interviewing hundreds of teens about their online lives. What she has found, over and over, is that teenagers would love to socialize face-to-face with their friends. But adult society won't let them. "Teens aren't addicted to social media. They're addicted to each other," Boyd says. "They're not allowed to hang out the way you and I did, so they've moved it online." It's true. As a teenager in the early '80s I could roam pretty widely with my friends, as long as we were back by dark. Over the next three decades, the media began delivering a metronomic diet of horrifying but rare child-abduction stories, and parents shortened the leash on their kids. Politicians warned of incipient waves of youth wilding and superpredators (neither of which emerged). Municipalities crafted anti-loitering laws and curfews to keep young people from congregating alone. New neighborhoods had fewer public spaces. Crime rates plummeted, but moral panic soared. Meanwhile, increased competition to get into college meant well-off parents began heavily scheduling their kids' after-school lives.'"

271 comments

  1. It takes a village... by dtmancom · · Score: 4, Insightful

    ...to raise a child poorly.

    1. Re:It takes a village... by lgw · · Score: 5, Funny

      Who to blame, who to blame? And the parents will all sing:

      Should we blame the government?
        Or blame society?
        Or should we blame the images on TV?

        No!
        Blame Canada!
        Blame Canada!
        Shame on Canada, foooor...
        The smut we must cut,
        The trash we must bash,
        The laughter and fun must all be undone!
        We must blame them and cause a fuss
        Before somebody thinks
        Of blaming uuuuuuuuuuus!

      No, no, nothing is ever the parents' fault, what could you be thinking?

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    2. Re:It takes a village... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      dosnt take a whole village to be involved or consulted to make one. So dont blame me if you cant raise your brat right

    3. Re:It takes a village... by flaming+error · · Score: 2

      "It takes a village ...to raise a child poorly."

      I don't get it. I think the point of "It takes a village" is to increase a child's face-to-face social interactions with a respectable variety of people.

      So this article would seem to support the idea that it takes a village to raise a child well.

    4. Re:It takes a village... by thePowersGang · · Score: 1

      It takes a village to raise a child (well)
      It takes a city to ruin one.

    5. Re:It takes a village... by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 5, Informative

      Who to blame, who to blame?

      Who is to blame for what? TFA presents no evidence (other than conjecture) that teens actually interact less face-to-face than earlier generations. It also presents no evidence (other than conjecture) that using Facebook is harmful. So there is no reason to believe either that the "problem" exists or that it is a problem.

       

    6. Re:It takes a village... by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      Do people really complain about their own kid's addiction to social media? I had the impression it was parents complaining about other people's kids addiction. If you really think your kid has a harmful addiction, you should really do something about it.

      Now, complaining about a high phone bill, that's a different story. But that's not a worry about kids harming themselves.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    7. Re:It takes a village... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "" It's Complicated: The Social Lives of Networked Teens, by Microsoft""

      You'll notice the MicroS**t name in that, and of course they do not have a popular if any acceptable social site of there own.

      So MS won't take credit for video game violence translating into real life violence due to there games, or the games they allow on there system. But will find some half baked scheme to denounce social media, and I should stay on track with the story as they are blaming parents.

      We know the video game violence has no found connection, but parenting does? what makes MS's propaganda amusing is they blame parenting and there is a host of events that cause --some-- to --few-- to become socially inept. To me good parenting isn't allowing your teenagers to hang out with with strangers because "I know them from the internet" (ahh the internet the trust all of everything ^!^). I am sure the entire article probably points this out but since I tired of reading anything with a MicroS**t connection I'll skip past it.

    8. Re:It takes a village... by jandersen · · Score: 3, Informative

      ... teens actually interact less face-to-face than earlier generations ...

      I wonder how old you are? Not far out of your teens?

      This is not to belittle your opinions, but although the article doesn't present any evidence, it is something that rings true to me, having grown up in a pre-PC and -internet age. When I was a child, it was common - expected, even - that you let your children go out on their own every day after school without worrying much about what they got up to. I never once got driven to school - I had a bicycle, and it was only about 3 km (a couple of miles, for the metrically challenged) along a country lane with only the occasional lorry barreling past. And what do children do when they are on their own? They find other children their age and play, working out their social skills together.

      But nowadays parents molly-cuddle their children, so they hardly ever get to scrape a knee or get into minor trouble - get themselves good and dirty. I don't think they lack social skills so much as the freedom and opportunity to take responsibility for their own lives - there is always a parent to head off any trouble they might get into, until they move away from home, and they find themselves unprepared for the amounts of shit that cascades into their lives. Social media and games wouldn't be so attractive, if they weren't such a convenient way to get away from over-protective parents, I think.

    9. Re:It takes a village... by nospam007 · · Score: 5, Funny

      " If you really think your kid has a harmful addiction, you should really do something about it."

      Indeed. Join Facebook yourself with your wife and granny and peepaw an mimmy and gramps and befriend the brat.

      Post annoying and embarrassing messages and pictures when they were kids throughout the day.

      They'll fall over each other to leave FB posthaste.

    10. Re:It takes a village... by Evtim · · Score: 4, Interesting

      So true!

      People say about me, that I have above average people skills. Well, that is what you get from spending 3-5 hours per day [during school year, during vacation it was 5-10 hours] from the age of 5 being together with 5-10 neighbor kids [and not using a single electronic device in our time together - no radio, no TV, no Internet, of course]. That was in the countryside. In the big city - the same story only the locations and types of fun were different.

      Being home after dark? Not after the age of 13. Around that time something happened to me that happens to most boys - I woke up wet. So I asked my parents what this means. "You are entering adulthood and you will change" they said. "But according to the law I am still a kid for 5 years" - I said. "Well, we will have to work it out somehow". Then I started staying with friends for the whole night, or coming home at 04:00 hours after heavy metal concert, going to the mountains for weeks at the time when there was no way to communicate with the rest of the world [can you even imagine that is possible today - to let your kid go to the mountains and not get news from it for 2 weeks!!] and so on....and all the time I was wondering when will my parents say "enough". They never did!

      A few years ago I said to my mom "I have the feeling I was left with almost no oversight from you and dad when I was going out as a teen. I had friends on drugs. Others were drinking too much. You knew this; did you never worry?" Mom laughed her heart out "We never stopped watching you very closely indeed. I was worried you might start drinking too much or taking drugs. I was worried that you might have nasty experience with women, or be attacked in the desolate night streets. But since you never "took the bad road" stayed reasonable, studied hard and so on, we never interfered. How could I deprive from your friends just because some of them have habits I consider bad. It would have been a disaster...you need contact with people of your age to become a person!"

      On the other side is the sad, sad story of a nephew of mine (born after communism), who got so protected by his [overly scared by media] mother that he never had a friend and was going out once per year with classmates. The boy turned psychotic because once he was in the University his total lack of social skills [although being 22 his emotional and social life is at a level of 10 year old] made him the ridicule of all. He went into fights, did not know how to approach women [guess how sensitive and empathic women are to boys they consider "losers"], grew progressively even more isolated....and at the end of that road was the psychiatrist....

      And don't get me started on sexual education, because today kids have the choice between shy and/or paranoid parents and the utterly fabricated "reality" of internet porn....so sad.

    11. Re: It takes a village... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Shutting out an article because it's on your list of proscribed authors seems a bit immature. Even the Catholic church has abandoned its Index.

      Sure, the source warrants being aware of conflicts of interest. Refusing to interact with a text because of its origins seems a bit too tribal to me.

    12. Re:It takes a village... by Saint+Fnordius · · Score: 1

      Ah, but if you won't let your little angel out of the cocoon for fear of the Village, then how will your little angel learn how to interact? Somewhere I can hear Roger Waters singing about how of course Momma's gonna help build a wall.

    13. Re:It takes a village... by Talderas · · Score: 1

      So I was watching an episode of Duck Dynasty on Christmas because my parents had it on. In one episode the Grandmother, Miss Kay(?), went bowling with her two oldest grandchildren (the kids of the CEO). I'm not sure if she was genuinely obtuse or if she knew what she was doing but she was certainly making her grandchildren feel embarassed in front of their friends by going into a pseudo sex talk.

      --
      "Lack of speed can be overcome. In the worst case by patience." --Znork
    14. Re: It takes a village... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      At this point if you kid skins thier knee, DSS shows up to investigate. I know I didnt personally pass any laws. At this point data is being collected at such a level anything about me can be determined from files. I think its time for one-to-one representation. read as get rid of congress et al and allow people to put laws up and vote on them.

    15. Re:It takes a village... by Githaron · · Score: 1

      And then in a big cat and mouse game, all the teenagers move to a different social media site.

    16. Re:It takes a village... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How about parents just start parenting their kids? The village should NEVER raise a child. The village is strangers like teachers and day care. Parents should work with friends and family to help raise kids. Dual income parents? Shame on you! Well, many dual incomes. Some parents need two jobs to survive. But our economy has encouraged and tailored itself around dual income families with over sized cheap homes, two or more $30,000+ vehicles, eating out all the time, lawn services, blah, blah, blah.

      I've seen way too many kids left behind in the dust as selfish parents race forward with their careers and affairs. Everyone knows there's a problem. Not many people do anything about it.

    17. Re:It takes a village... by jellomizer · · Score: 1

      Are you still pissed off about OS/2 not making it as a popular OS?

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    18. Re:It takes a village... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That saying is all well and good but the nuclear family killed any community we once had.

    19. Re:It takes a village... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      well a lot of teens wont answer you if you call them on the phone, but the second you text them they say whats up, and they request or flat out tell you dont call me i wont anwser. im sure some of that stems from parents not interacting with their kids and once they turn 5 they just go buy them a phone cause they really one and justify it by saying " well i can keep in touch with them that way" when that is just a BS excuse

    20. Re: It takes a village... by um...+Lucas · · Score: 1

      Whenever I go to my hometown, I'm struck by the dearth of kids hanging out like we used to. They just are nowhere to be found. But the, there sure are a lot of no loitering signs, no skateboarding signs. I assumed that they're staying home on their own accord, playing tony hawk instead of trying to actually skate on their own. But then, when friends drop their kids off places, they leave but expect them to answer their phone at a moments notice. Worse, I think, is using gps to track them. And then, even when they're home, parents now have an array of trully scary monitoring software. Kids today really do lack the freedoms that kids of yesteryear had. I just assumed that they liked it, for the most part, rather than herding into all the chat apps simply because they can't see their friends face to face anymore.

    21. Re:It takes a village... by flaming+error · · Score: 1

      "The village is strangers"

      Wrong. By definition.

    22. Re:It takes a village... by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      ...to raise a child

      Yes, and it only takes a child with a Bic to raze a village.

    23. Re:It takes a village... by LongearedBat · · Score: 1

      What's even more scary is that there are so few people being brought up the "old way" that not many future parents will know how to let their kids roam like we did. So in a generation or two, how is society going to revert to the "old ways"?

      I think it won't, and I think that will be the cause of more psych issues, and lots of research trying to figure out why. Then people will invent all sorts of artificial ways to make up for the loss of "caveman" habits. Yet, all that would be avoidable if only kids were let to play freely, so that they could pass that on to their kids.

    24. Re:It takes a village... by s0nicfreak · · Score: 1

      The parents are part of the village. It takes ALL of the village to raise a child. The problem comes when just 1 or two of the village tries to raise a child in near-seclusion, as is common today - it doesn't matter if that one or two people are parents, teachers, or daycare workers.

    25. Re:It takes a village... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Enough with the damn circlejerking about the "BEFORE YOUR GENERATION I WAS BLABLABLA" already.

      I grew up some years before the internet-boom happen (i.e. WinXP onwards) and either this has to be something completely cultural because I've never seen either today or when I was a kid parents drive their kids to school or what not for fearing that their children might get abducted.

      People today isn't some sub-human compared to X years ago, I was always interested in computers and games so... Was my friends, we arranged LANs and even went to LAN parties.
      And from what I've seen outdoor fads come and go My childhood and teenage years it was: scooter -> roller-blades -> mountain bike -> trampoline -> skateboarding -> roller-blades again -> skateboarding
      So just make sure your kid is following the fads like a blind sheep if you're worried he or she isn't being in the outdoors enough.

    26. Re:It takes a village... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Apparently, your upbringing also turned you into a whiny "get of my lawn" type of grouch.

    27. Re:It takes a village... by xaxa · · Score: 1

      And then in a big cat and mouse game, all the teenagers move to a different social media site.

      They already have (at least in the UK). I can't remember the name of the site, but Facebook was where you put things to show mum, and the other site where you did what you wanted.

      Ah -- found it -- the app is WhatsApp.

    28. Re:It takes a village... by xaxa · · Score: 1

      There are other countries where the 'old way' is the normal way -- I've seen it in Germany, the Netherlands and Scandinavia. (I'm British, and I think we're in-between, and perhaps closer to the US.) I don't think they have so many scare stories in their media.

      I'm annoyed when I see a class of children wearing high-visibility jackets when I go past the nearby botanical garden (what could possibly be the danger?!), but at least many/most travel (including to school) by normal public transport, and can be seen wandering around after school has finished.

    29. Re:It takes a village... by bbsalem · · Score: 1

      " If you really think your kid has a harmful addiction, you should really do something about it."

      Indeed. Join Facebook yourself with your wife and granny and peepaw an mimmy and gramps and befriend the brat.

      Post annoying and embarrassing messages and pictures when they were kids throughout the day.

      They'll fall over each other to leave FB posthaste.

      Just saw a link from Gizmoto to a study in Europe that claimed this was exactly what was happending, kids are moving to other social media sites that are "cooler".

    30. Re:It takes a village... by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      Surprised it hasn't happened earlier. It's sort of like bands. Once more than three people (or anyone older than 20) have heard of them they're not hip any more.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
  2. What a pile of shit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    If something like Facebook is available to teens, they will use it. And they do.

    What is with this "blaming" nonsense? What is all this talk about public spaces - where? Are we supposed to accept that the lack of facilities for youths exists throughout the Facebook-using world, or is Danah Boyd unable to think outside of her own local area?

    1. Re:What a pile of shit by interkin3tic · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I'm addicted to porn. It's other people's fault: they rarely have orgies with me, so I have to settle for virtual!

      Bonus: the methodology here is asking teens why they're doing something "wrong." The answer is "Because my parents won't let me do what I want." Shock.

    2. Re:What a pile of shit by Sqr(twg) · · Score: 1

      Dr. Boyd isn't actually arguing that facebook is a problem (although TFS makes it sound that way.) What she is saying is that forcing kids to stay at home instead of going out to play causes problems.

    3. Re:What a pile of shit by UnderCoverPenguin · · Score: 1


      Bonus: the methodology here is asking teens why they're doing something "wrong." The answer is "Because my parents won't let me do what I want." Shock.

      Is it really shocking to you that teens would want face-to-face social time?

      I think it is good they want face-to-face time with their friends (and no, I do not mean "Face Time" on their iDevice). Opportunities for real, face-to-face socialization are far, far fewer than when we were teens.

      I also think that most of today's adults would agree that face-to-face socialization is better. Unfortunately, too few are willing to take on the responsibility of enabling self-directed activities like when we were teens. Example: When I was a teen (and even when I was a child), all the parents in my neighborhood made the effort to get to know each other and help each other monitor the neighborhood so that it would be safe for the kids. I have not seen that happening in recent years. If neither of a kid's parents is with the kid, the kid isn't playing outside. And when kids do visit other kids' homes, the host parents expect the visiting kids' parents to stay for the duration. And the parents of the visiting kids expect to be allowed to stay. Another example: My school had informal, after school activities that were only loosely monitored by teachers and/or staff. In recent years, the closest there is to unscripted time is lunch break, which is often barely long enough for all the kids to get their lunches and eat.

      --
      Don't try to out wierd me, three-eyes. I get stranger things than you, free with my breakfast cereal. --Zaphod Beeblebr
  3. Yes, because nothing is ever your fault by tompaulco · · Score: 1, Interesting

    As Pop Psychology clearly tells us, nothing is ever the fault of the person who did it. It is always the parents fault, or societies fault, or their upbringing, or the people they hung out with.
    Now if you will excuse me, I am going to go rob a bank. You should be ashamed of yourselves for driving me to this. I hope you all rot in jail.

    --
    If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
    1. Re:Yes, because nothing is ever your fault by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Well, since its mostly talking about teenagers, which the parents usually don't allow to fully make their own choices, especially if it may reduce their safety, then yes, in this case I think we can blame the parenting.

    2. Re:Yes, because nothing is ever your fault by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The thing you get wrong is that there is no such thing as fault in the way you think of it. The decisions you make are based on the experiences you accumulated up to this point. The experiences you accumulated are based on the decisions you made, which where based on previous experiences.
      We are all the product of our environment.
      When something goes wrong, we should look for the causes and remove/try to correct them.
      Just telling the person doing something "you are shit to begin with, thats why you did this" doesn't lead anywhere.

    3. Re:Yes, because nothing is ever your fault by AK+Marc · · Score: 2

      Are you rational? If you are, why would you rationally make a poor decision? The short answer (for the most common case) is that someone else pushed a belief upon you that modified your parameters to irrational ones. That's child abuse

    4. Re:Yes, because nothing is ever your fault by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Haha.. Good one sir!

    5. Re:Yes, because nothing is ever your fault by smittyoneeach · · Score: 1

      We must circle the wagons and offer excuses for tompaulco's anti-social behavior. Blame Slashdot? No, let's go with a general Bush-blame.

      --
      Get thee glass eyes, and, like a scurvy politician, seem to see things thou dost not.--King Lear
    6. Re:Yes, because nothing is ever your fault by ebno-10db · · Score: 3, Funny

      We are all the product of our environment.

      No, no, no! Remember the scene the "Life of Brian" where he tells the crowd "you are all individuals", and they respond in unison "we are all individuals!"

    7. Re:Yes, because nothing is ever your fault by ebno-10db · · Score: 2

      That's child abuse.

      '

      I've heard of strong reactions against social media, but I didn't think it went that far.

    8. Re:Yes, because nothing is ever your fault by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      As Pop Psychology clearly tells us, ...

      Not just Pop Psychology but also basic science.

      At the most fundamental level everything that happens in the world, including human behavior, happens because of some combination of the laws of physics and random chance. That's not to say that people don't interact and influence each other or that a criminal justice system doesn't influence behaviors (i.e. prevent "crime"). Interaction and influence are no more a sign of free will in humans than in colliding billiard balls. Imagine a movie where all the actions are predetermined but where the characters on the screen actually experience the feelings of their situation. That's essentially what it means to be alive. You feel the pain but the most you can hope for is some degree of mercy from the laws of physics and random chance.

      Now, given that reality, what should we do about it? Well, the other point is that life has no fundamental purpose. In fact, the notion of life having a purpose is not even, itself, meaningful. So, not only is there no "deserve" (deserve to be rich, poor, happy, sad, etc) but there is also no "should" (should be rich, poor, happy, sad, ).

      What are we going to do about it, then? Well what ever the laws of physics and random chance dictate, of course. But on possibility is that other civilizations throughout the universe have developed to the point where they know beyond any doubt that their existence has no purpose and that free will is an illusion. And so they have collectively ceased to exist - a collective suicide, if you well. That may also be the ultimate future of humanity.

      But it's not up to me: if you don't like it you can take it up with the laws of physics and random chance. Maybe if you could just convince the laws of physics to change the gravitational constant then you could have yourself a different destiny. :)

    9. Re:Yes, because nothing is ever your fault by mysidia · · Score: 2

      Are you rational? If you are, why would you rationally make a poor decision? The short answer (for the most common case) is that someone else pushed a belief upon you that modified your parameters to irrational ones. That's child abuse

      Even rational people can make some judgement errors and technical mistakes, or give into temptation and rationally take a course that isn't optimal in the long term.

      It's called "life".

    10. Re:Yes, because nothing is ever your fault by fustakrakich · · Score: 1

      No, let's go with a general Bush-blame.

      No no! It's Wilson! He did it.

      --
      “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
    11. Re:Yes, because nothing is ever your fault by FuzzNugget · · Score: 2

      You're extrapolating the principle to an extreme and incomparable context.

      Let me lay it out for you:

      1) Helicopter parents become extremely restrictive and surveillant of their childrens' activities because of irrational fears provoked and perpetuated by a shock-based, fear-is-gold media and equally fear-mongering politicians.

      2) People, especially children and teens, need socialization to function properly in society. That much we know. And they want it. And they will find it any way they can.

      3) With no other options, they turn to social media and spend time there that they would otherwise spend mostly on actual socialization (which involves face-to-face interactions with tone, inflection, body language and all that important stuff that social media lacks or can only convey in a very rudimentary manner)

      So, ask yourself again... who bears the majority of the blame here?

    12. Re:Yes, because nothing is ever your fault by AK+Marc · · Score: 2

      The first question is, do you think emotional abuse is a bad thing? So many loonitarians here claim that feelings aren't real, so hurting them shouldn't be restricted. If that's your basis, then there's no common ground for discussion.

      If you aren't that radical, then what do you call systemic lies to manipulate behavior? Should that be encouraged, or is it a bad thing? If it's a bad thing, then what do we call it when a parent does it to their child?

    13. Re:Yes, because nothing is ever your fault by AK+Marc · · Score: 2

      A rational person wouldn't make a mistake if they have all the information, unless they aren't being rational at the moment of the decision. So, if they are not rational, then that invalidates my requirement. If they are rational, but have insufficient information for the correct decision to be reached, then what's the problem if some group is deliberately holding back information? If it's the parents deliberately harming the child by restricting information that would enable rational choices, then that's Child Abuse. A parent deliberately causing harm is abuse.

    14. Re:Yes, because nothing is ever your fault by epyT-R · · Score: 0

      When something goes wrong, we should look for the causes and remove/try to correct them.

      Except that the problem is, when people (usually liberal/lefties) do this, they end up removing opportunities for the good outcomes that occur concurrently with the bad. EG Children kept indoors will be safer from the outside chance of predation, but will lack the experiences, fun, and health benefits of consistent outdoor play.

      Just telling the person doing something "you are shit to begin with, thats why you did this" doesn't lead anywhere.

      That doesn't mean you remove motivation for them to strive to do better.

    15. Re:Yes, because nothing is ever your fault by epyT-R · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      ..just like lefties think emotions are the most important, and want laws in place silence express that might cause negative ones, even when it is true(eg 'hate speech' law). The end result is this overprotective society talked about in the article.

    16. Re:Yes, because nothing is ever your fault by ebno-10db · · Score: 1

      unless they aren't being rational at the moment of the decision

      Even Mr. Spock suffered from pon farr every seven years. In human teenagers it's more like every seven minutes.

    17. Re:Yes, because nothing is ever your fault by tompaulco · · Score: 1

      Yes, given your premise, the conclusions are correct. However, the premises are wrong. Parents are not restricting their children from interacting outside of social media. The opposite. Parents are trying to encourage children to put DOWN the phone and spend time with their friends, and children are choosing to be social online instead.

      --
      If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
    18. Re:Yes, because nothing is ever your fault by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      I love the blame shifting towards the media and everyone else for pandering to fears. The reason people pander to fears, is because it works, and it works because people wont retain a grasp on perspective.

      Slashdot has this issue particularly bad, actually.

    19. Re:Yes, because nothing is ever your fault by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      When something goes wrong, we should look for the causes and remove/try to correct them.

      Except that the problem is, when people (usually liberal/lefties) do this, they end up removing opportunities for the good outcomes that occur concurrently with the bad. EG Children kept indoors will be safer from the outside chance of predation, but will lack the experiences, fun, and health benefits of consistent outdoor play.

      Just telling the person doing something "you are shit to begin with, thats why you did this" doesn't lead anywhere.

      That doesn't mean you remove motivation for them to strive to do better.

      Actually, it's jackfucks like you (conservatives/republicans) that fuck it for our kids because investment in the community means "oh noes! (taxes, socialism, commie fascists, kenya)."

    20. Re:Yes, because nothing is ever your fault by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Yes, I'm a rabid leftie to the right, and a rabid conservative to the liberals. If everyone thinks I'm wrong, I must be doing something right, especially seeing what "they" do, when given the chance.

      So your stance is emotional abuse isn't a bad thing.

      Oh, and "hate laws" aren't about hurting feelings, but trying to intimidate millions when you skin and torture some undesired minority as an example for what happens when "your kind" dates white women. Since you hate distinguishing punishment based on motive, you must not recognize the varied levels of homicide, based on motive and intentions (murder, negligent homicide, manslaughter, etc.).

    21. Re:Yes, because nothing is ever your fault by chad_r · · Score: 4, Funny

      We are all the product of our environment.

      No, no, no! Remember the scene the "Life of Brian" where he tells the crowd "you are all individuals", and they respond in unison "we are all individuals!"

      Oh, but you missed the best part. After everyone shouts "we are all individuals", a lone meek voice says "I'm not!".

    22. Re:Yes, because nothing is ever your fault by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      So people have feelings, and they are real and can be hurt? You've come so far in the past few days.

    23. Re:Yes, because nothing is ever your fault by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      May you never experience actual child abuse, because the pain of it is more than I'd wish on anyone, even if it is the only thing that will provide you with a desperately-needed clue.

    24. Re:Yes, because nothing is ever your fault by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A rational person wouldn't make a mistake if they have all the information, unless they aren't being rational at the moment of the decision.

      This is both false and vacuous. Which political party/stance is the sole "rational" choice when one has "all the information"? Who has "all the information"?

      If a parent is of the opinion that doing additional activities such as sports or math tutoring or any of myriad other activities, to improve their academic or personal development of their child, given the reality of limited time, which one does "all the information" specify is the correct one to advocate? Does "all the information" specify that the choice will, or will not (given your penchant for binary thinking) in fact lead to a positive outcome, 10 years in the future? If the child currently dislikes one activity in favor of another, or dislikes all of the alternatives, what does "all the information" specify is the right degree of attempting to makes one's case, or motivate them?

      Actual parenting is nothing like your thought process, which, in terms of practical benefit, seems about equivalent to wanking over an Ayn Rand novel while making bizarre proclamations as to what is "rational" for others' choices in situations you have no involvement in, or knowledge about.

    25. Re: Yes, because nothing is ever your fault by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It doesn't lead anywhere, but telling somebody that everything is their fault and nobody else's is the underpinning of conservative social thought. If they don't have simple one line answers to absolutely everything they might have to think. If they think, they might figure out something is wrong with society or (God forbid) their own ideas. We can't have THAT because that may mean something might have to change. Best to just believe in one's own moral superiority and not think about it.

    26. Re:Yes, because nothing is ever your fault by Windwraith · · Score: 1

      Put down the phone and go out!
      Come back before X, we dine extra early today because I HAD PLANS DAMNIT.
      Don't talk to anyone on the way back. Don't go shopping or anything, let me check your pockets for cash so you don't go out buying soda or shit.
      I'll call every few hours to check if you are alright. If you don't pick it up I'll call the police.
      Are you hanging out with David? I think he's doing drugs, better stay at home today.
      I told you you can't go out with David, so go to your room while I do mother stuff! And quiet!

      Jokes aside, my mother didn't let me do anything until I was like 18. I could only go out for like one hour every week, always supervised and staying at home to play with my brother that was older and had more freedoms and thus didn't want to play with a kid.
      My father was more lenient but since he was also a pastry baker, his schedule wasn't very compatible with a kid's, so my mother was the one in charge.
      When social media came (well, the early version of it at least), it was a boon. I was able to talk to people without that witch monitoring me out. And of course I took it. I am a loner, but not that much.

      This was years ago, some of my friends "enjoyed" similar treatments as well. But from what I hear from younger kids or adults younger than myself, it seems to be much worse now.
      Anecdotal evidence yeah, but I don't think I am some unique snowflake, it surely happened to many, many more.

    27. Re:Yes, because nothing is ever your fault by JonnyCalcutta · · Score: 1

      You make a good point but as seems too common, you ruin it by getting a pointless dig in at your political 'enemies'. *sigh*.

    28. Re:Yes, because nothing is ever your fault by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      So, because beatings are worse than emotional abuse, emotional abuse is OK because it isn't "actual" child abuse?

    29. Re:Yes, because nothing is ever your fault by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      This is both false and vacuous. Which political party/stance is the sole "rational" choice when one has "all the information"? Who has "all the information"?

      In the "Free Market" everyone has "all the information." That the ideal doesn't exist doesn't mean we can't discuss it. I figured the lower-hanging fruit would be to acknowledge people are not rational. We are emotional beings, not logical beings, despite all the Spock-wannabees on Slashdot. Given how emotional they get over calling Star Wars "true" sci-fi, if they were logical at all, they'd recognize it.

      Actual parenting is nothing like your thought process, which, in terms of practical benefit, seems about equivalent to wanking over an Ayn Rand novel while making bizarre proclamations as to what is "rational" for others' choices in situations you have no involvement in, or knowledge about.

      I'm a parent, and not a Randroid, so whatever point you were trying to make doesn't apply to me, at all. Try your irrational guesses again. Though that won't improve their accuracy. I never said what was rational, just that rational + infinite information = correct. Your argument is that someone who believes the truth must like Ayn Rand. That's a silly argument. You are obviously not rational. Why do you hate Ayn Rand so much?

    30. Re:Yes, because nothing is ever your fault by smittyoneeach · · Score: 1

      Wilson merely planted the seeds, and liberalism insists we judge him for his swell intentions, not the wretched results of his acolytes.

      --
      Get thee glass eyes, and, like a scurvy politician, seem to see things thou dost not.--King Lear
    31. Re:Yes, because nothing is ever your fault by Vitriol+Angst · · Score: 1

      Oh, but you missed the best part. After everyone shouts "we are all individuals", a lone meek voice says "I'm not!".

      It's the same voice that says; "but I'm not dead yet!"

      In the Monte Python world, the unique individual is usually pummeled and fed to a paper lion animated by Terry Gilliam.

      --
      >>"ad space available -- low rates!!!"
    32. Re:Yes, because nothing is ever your fault by TheTurtlesMoves · · Score: 1

      Any human who answers yes to the first question is a liar or in denial.

      --
      The Grey Goo disaster happened 3 billion years ago. This rock is covered in self replicating machines!
    33. Re:Yes, because nothing is ever your fault by tompaulco · · Score: 1

      Sounds like your mom needs to get a job. When I was growing up, the economy was poor so every family had to have two incomes. So I pretty much could be out playing, or inside, or go to a friends house, or whatever. Pretty much anything except have friends over to my house, because my stepdad didn't like me having friends over.
      Now, the economy is so poor that both my wife and I have to work, and my kids spend a lot of time on their own at home. They could go to a friend's house if they called and told us, but mostly they choose to stay inside. They don't spend a lot of time on social media though. They have a phone, but they don't really text or call people much. They don't use the house phone. They don't get on facebook very often. They mostly just watch TV, read books, and play games on the computer.
      I'd say all these people that have hoverparents need to make their parents get a job, so the kids can learn to fend for themselves a little bit.
      Honestly, I have heard the term hoverparents, but I haven't seen it in action. Maybe it is a coastal thing. People in the midwest don't have enough money to just not work and spend all their time poking into their kids business.

      --
      If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
    34. Re:Yes, because nothing is ever your fault by fustakrakich · · Score: 1

      ...liberalism insists we judge him for his swell intentions...

      Whew! Good thing I'm not a 'liberal', otherwise I might be insulted. And since when are you suddenly concerned about consequences? Oh, right... five years ago.

      --
      “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
    35. Re:Yes, because nothing is ever your fault by smooth+wombat · · Score: 1

      The reason people pander to fears, is because it works, and it works because people wont retain a grasp on perspective.

      True dat (thanks to Leonard). Just look at the pandering done for the UACA. ZOMG! You might get the flu or break a leg or get Ebola so you must hand over your money to a private company to pay your bills. ZOMG! The world will fall apart if you don't!

      Slashdot has this issue particularly bad, actually.

      Yes, yes it does.

      --
      We will bankrupt ourselves in the vain search for absolute security. -- Dwight D. Eisenhower
    36. Re:Yes, because nothing is ever your fault by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Are you rational? If you are, why would you rationally make a poor decision?

      That's one of the dumbest comments I've read in a while.

      Have you ever heard of the prisonner's dilemma?

      You can be both fully rational and have all the information and still make the worst possible choice.

      In the real world, with only vague hints and your mind dimmed by prejudice, your "decisions" are either random or forced upon you by others and then proudly assumed as your own.

    37. Re:Yes, because nothing is ever your fault by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "In the "Free Market" everyone has "all the information.""

      Yet another in a long string of ridiculous and absurd declarations from you. You are a Fucking Fruitcake.

    38. Re:Yes, because nothing is ever your fault by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Yet, most on Slashdot think themselves logical enough to be perfectly rational at all times (the Spock wannabees). Yet the aggressive and emotional arguments given when I point out the fallacy indicates otherwise.

    39. Re:Yes, because nothing is ever your fault by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      You can be both fully rational and have all the information and still make the worst possible choice.

      The prisonner's dilemma doesn't apply. It is "rational" if you assume the other person to work in their self interest, rather than the common good, to select the "worst choice". The dilemma comes down to risk aversion when the risk is non random. Since the risk is non-random, then there is no "rational" deduction of the proper course of action.

      Or, if you believe that the "rational" choice is always to refuse to speak, then most people taking the "test" have been brainwashed into irrational misanthropic beliefs.

      In the real world, with only vague hints and your mind dimmed by prejudice, your "decisions" are either random or forced upon you by others and then proudly assumed as your own.

      If decisions were rational, like religious choice, then the correlation with parent's beliefs would be much lower than reality. So decisions are forced upon us. The "real" question should be, how much branwashing is OK, and at what point does it become abuse?

    40. Re:Yes, because nothing is ever your fault by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Just because you don't know what a "free market" is, doesn't make me wrong. Look it up. The actual ecomomics definition, not the one used by politicians and talk show hosts.

    41. Re:Yes, because nothing is ever your fault by smittyoneeach · · Score: 1

      Since you ask, probably around 2005, when W got a bollocking for trying to do something, anything about Social Security. I was all: "We may be more jacked than I had thought."

      --
      Get thee glass eyes, and, like a scurvy politician, seem to see things thou dost not.--King Lear
    42. Re:Yes, because nothing is ever your fault by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We are all the product of our environment.

      No, no, no! Remember the scene the "Life of Brian" where he tells the crowd "you are all individuals", and they respond in unison "we are all individuals!"

      Oh, but you missed the best part. After everyone shouts "we are all individuals", a lone meek voice says "I'm not!".

      ...and is promptly shushed. :)

    43. Re:Yes, because nothing is ever your fault by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      It is "rational" if you assume the other person to work in their self interest, rather than the common good, to select the "worst choice".

      Wrong. One, it's not a zero sum game. Two, you can't make any assumptions at all about the other player's choice. That's the point.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    44. Re:Yes, because nothing is ever your fault by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      If humans are rational, then we are all rational, so you could make assumptions about the other player's choice. But humans aren't rational. That's the point.

    45. Re:Yes, because nothing is ever your fault by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      False dichotomy. What's in someone's best interest is not necessarily contrary to what's best for the overall good.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
  4. My Anecdote Does Not Support Assertion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I've pushed and encouraged my son, now 19, to get out and socialize. I've encouraged him to go hang out with friends and to invite friends over. I've encouraged him to have and to attend parties, join groups, travel... I've provided a relatively fancy/sporty car and more than enough money to do almost whatever he likes.

    Instead he plays League of Legends and DOTA2 for 18-20 hours per day. He'd rather be kicked in the head than leave you computer and go outside or socialize...

    Well maybe it's my son that's got a problem. I do see lots of teens out in public. But, all of those teens, ALL OF THEM, have their heads buried in their smartphones. They go out of their way to NOT interact, let alone socialize, with anyone.

    I think this "researcher" is full of shit. I think that we are still to blame for providing an easy and pervasive technological environment that allows them to bury their heads in their comfortable world of cyberspace and "social media", never having to come up for air. It's addictive as shit and they are all addicted to it. But, they're not at all interested in socializing IRL.

    1. Re:My Anecdote Does Not Support Assertion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Jesus you sound just like my parents. If your son is happy why don't you leave your son alone and mind your own business.

    2. Re:My Anecdote Does Not Support Assertion by lgw · · Score: 5, Funny

      I think this "researcher" is full of shit. I think that we are still to blame for providing an easy and pervasive technological environment that allows them to bury their heads in their comfortable world of cyberspace and "social media", never having to come up for air. It's addictive as shit and they are all addicted to it. But, they're not at all interested in socializing IRL.

      And they suck at riding horses, so they'll shamefully be foot soldiers when drafted into the military. And none of them have memorized a log table - how are they supposed to multiply big numbers, I ask you? And no one is apprenticed to a trade and sent off at 12 to work any more - how are they supposed to get job skills?

      Instead they're off dancing the waltz and exposing their ankles like they have no shame at all. This moral decay will be the end of society I tell you!

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    3. Re:My Anecdote Does Not Support Assertion by smittyoneeach · · Score: 1

      Because his actual age is 39.

      --
      Get thee glass eyes, and, like a scurvy politician, seem to see things thou dost not.--King Lear
    4. Re:My Anecdote Does Not Support Assertion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Thanks for asking. The answer is that since he's my son he IS my business. His immaturity and inexperience prevents him from understanding the limit of his experience or realizing that the moment's pleasure is at the cost of a lifetime of happiness.

      My mission is to make sure that he enjoys his entire life. His gaming "addiction" is not a lasting happiness, like making friends and sharing experiences with them would be. It is more like an alcoholic temporarily hiding from their troubles.

      You are luck to have parents such as yours. But, you lack the experience and insight to realize it, yet.

    5. Re:My Anecdote Does Not Support Assertion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A spoiled 19 y/o who doesn't do what his father tells him to do. How quaint.

    6. Re:My Anecdote Does Not Support Assertion by Midnight_Falcon · · Score: 5, Insightful
      My anecdote on the other hand -- myself -- does.

      My parents claimed they encouraged me to be more social and go out more with my friends, just like yourself. Instead I spent time on IRC and MUDs.

      The original article actually sort of reads like the story of my own childhood. I grew up in NYC under Broken Windows/Giuliani, when policing and keeping kids safe began to become at its peak.

      My mom watched an awful lot of daytime TV and abduction dramas -- she was warning me about being abducted from stores when I was four years old, constantly, until I was around sixteen and it was ridiculous.

      Of course, my mother being fed all these stories from the media, was very "overprotective." This meant she tried to listen in on my phone calls, would regularly search my room (not for drugs or anything ..this started before I even knew what drugs were...for notes I had passed out in class and things she could find to get more information about who my friends were and what were we doing). When I was 16 I found she had many of my friends' phone numbers in the back of her phone book -- many of those friends were from outside of school and she had to have gone through my things to find the numbers.

      What happened here? Well, I became adept at cryptography and communicating privately -- and started working at an ISP around age 12. I also spent a lot of time at home because she would prevent me from going to any events with friends (concerts), sleeping over anyone's house, etc etc. Ostensibly, she said "get out of the house", but in reality her conditions were too restrictive to actually encourage it.

      Once I got to college, I became a complete social butterfly. I threw big parties all the time and was extremely social, and I continue to be quite a social person today. I have little social media presence.

      After college I used the computer skills I had gotten as a teenager to start my career, which I continue in.

      It's not a sad story and it has a fine ending, but it totally matches the article. It's almost eerie reading it myself.

    7. Re:My Anecdote Does Not Support Assertion by Midnight_Falcon · · Score: 3, Informative

      Oh yeah, to add to this, we moved when I was in 6th grade within NYC. We moved from a neighborhood that had been built in the late 1800s to one that had been built in the 1970s. The new neighborhood, while much nicer, had few public spaces for kids to play -- just one park attached to a school that was frequently gated/closed. Kids could also bike for about an hour to get to another larger public park in an older neighborhood. Once they turned 16, quickly those who could afford it got cars and started hanging out literally driving around the neighborhood. I'm sure these same kids are doing that now on their smartphone or just sitting at home.

    8. Re:My Anecdote Does Not Support Assertion by roc97007 · · Score: 1

      Besides, I want his room for a den.

      --
      Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
    9. Re:My Anecdote Does Not Support Assertion by roc97007 · · Score: 4, Informative

      Jesus you sound just like my parents. If your son is happy why don't you leave your son alone and mind your own business.

      Ok, so, I'm having a similar problem with my daughter, also 19. The answer to your question is easy. You're an adult. It's my house. I have no intention of keeping you as a pet. If you're working towards something in good faith, a job, or an internship, or college, I'll support that. But if you're just going to sit on the couch, you can do it somewhere else.

      Because, I'll say this again to be certain we're communicating -- pause the game so you can hear me -- It's. My. House. Not yours. As an adult you live here because I let you live here.

      In your particular case, it might be time to set down the controller and figure out what you're going to do for the rest of your life. Oh, depending on the character of your parents, you may be able to occupy that couch indefinitely. I've seen it happen -- a guy I went to high school with, is still living with his mother in his fifties. Yes, I did say fifties. But I suspect that kind of situation is rare and I'm not sure that depending on it is a good career plan.

      --
      Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
    10. Re:My Anecdote Does Not Support Assertion by roc97007 · · Score: 2

      You are absolutely right, but perhaps what he really needs is for his life to really suck for awhile. Living on his own (or trying to) may result in some life-changing revelations.

      And please, don't fall for the "I'm going to be a professional game tester" line. I heard that from my nephew when he was living with us. (We got him when his mom couldn't take him anymore.) Needless to say, that didn't work out. And when I finally, regretfully, tossed him out, he slept in his car for awhile. And oh, he hated me with a white hot hate for destroying all his plans, which seemed to center around occupying my spare bedroom for the rest of his life. But eventually, he pulled himself together, got a job, and actually made something of himself.

      --
      Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
    11. Re:My Anecdote Does Not Support Assertion by epyT-R · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I think it boils down to an extreme risk-aversion caused by a spike in artificial risk imposed by society on large percentages of interaction. This is done by people who have vested interests in either corralling behavior, or by people with axes to grind.

      1. Every time feminists get some new law passed that lowers the legal bar for girls to make accusations that stick, it increases the social and legal risks for boys and men who have little or no legal recourse for false accusations, both deliberate and those based on bad definitions. With those huge generalizations rattling inside their heads, girls are treating all boys as 'potential rapists.' This causes feral like behavior in both genders as their natural biological imperatives collide with these newspeak mantras. The smarter ones are abandoning the game altogether because they see the risks which leave the not so average ones to mate and reproduce. Playing video games is increasingly being seen as almost as fun and a lot safer, socially. Cheaper too.

      2. Schools' social dynamics are becoming more and more like prisons, with ever more extreme punishments for the tiniest missteps in following increasingly chaotic and nonsensical rules. A wrong word, or out of context statement overheard by the wrong person used to get the student a dressing down or 'demerit' slip. Now it lands the student in front of the school psychologist, who then comes up with some 'disease' to label him with, ruining his future opportunities.. The fact that schools are now reaching outside their domains and into the home is quite scary.

      3. Up through the 1990s, cruising around in cars was popular with teens until gas prices reached a point where few could afford to without parental gas allowance. There was a time in fact where a highschool teen could buy a shitbox car, fuel, and insure it, on the pittance earned at his part time job. This is not true anymore...or is becoming starkly less true as time goes on.

      4. The usual zomg, terrorists, zomg, pedophiles, zomg rapists, zomg drugs stuff hasn't gone away either. The only thing that has changed is the increasing ubiquity and homogeneity of its message. This reenforces its 'truthiness' and relative importance in people's minds.

      Obviously, this post overlaps what was said in the article. I agree with a lot of it. If anything, 'social' media is just the biggest convenient pothole for people to fall into when they see that taking IRL social risk has just become too risky.

    12. Re:My Anecdote Does Not Support Assertion by ChromaticDragon · · Score: 1

      Here, Here!!

      I started communicating this idea to the rugrats early on. Namely, that at age of emancipation, not only are they free to go, they will be booted out pending only a couple of rather explicit exceptions: 1) clear medical/psychological needs; 2) progression towards college degree.

      Different cultures work differently. In many cultures it is indeed the norm for the children to stay at home until they are married - and this seems to be later and later for recent generations. I am concerned that when mine are old enough it really may be quite tough economically to head out. But I managed with a variety of single roommates during and after college. I imagine they can do the same.

      It may seem heartless to toss the young-uns out. But kids seem to gain responsibility very quickly when they have to. And I always wonder how these very late bloomers handle things when/if their parents pass on before they've every managed on their own.

    13. Re:My Anecdote Does Not Support Assertion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As an adult you live here because I let you live here.

      When it comes to my own daughter (my "creation", so to speak), I tend to take inspiration from God and his final message to his creation: "We apologise for the inconvenience." In particular, given that I'm substantially responsible for her existance, I imagine that I'll feel a sense of responsibility for my daughter's welfare even after that magic line in the sand where she turns 18 and is suddenly and completely an "adult". I mean, I'd feel kind of bad if she got to the end of her life and was like, "Wow, that whole being alive thing was really unpleasant! If I had one wish it's that my dad had used protection back in the day."

      But it's also true that the relationship between a parent and a child needs to evolve as the child matures. Ideally, eventually the relationship would be similar to that of two adult friends. And in healthy adult relationship there is a high degree of reciprocity. So, while you may be within your right to kick your 19 year old daughter out into the street, if you do then it would unreasonable for you to expect your daughter to give you a place to stay or otherwise take care of you in your old age. Essentially, now that your daughter is an "adult", this is time to start making deposits in the friendship bank that you can withdraw in your waning days of ill health.

      I've seen it happen -- a guy I went to high school with, is still living with his mother in his fifties.

      I've also been aware of a couple of such cases myself. But, in those cases, the sons were struggling with significant psychological problems and would almost certainly been homeless without their parent's assistance. That is, there was no way they were going to have "successful" careers no matter how badly their parents treated them. On the other hand, I also know a number of people with highly successful careers who have relied heavily on their parents for support even in adulthood.

    14. Re:My Anecdote Does Not Support Assertion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It may seem heartless to toss the young-uns out. But kids seem to gain responsibility very quickly when they have to. And I always wonder how these very late bloomers handle things when/if their parents pass on before they've every managed on their own.

      It's been my experience that kids do gain experience very quickly when they have to, but the older they are they, the harder they have it (because their built in support structure tends to get married and/or move away). Eventually, they appear to have no visible support structure and often lack the social skills to build a new one. At this point, the best chance to build a social network generally a church or a volunteer organization. The few folks that I know that are at this point (in their mid 50's and living with their parents) have all become active in churches even as they continue to deal with their internet addiction... One of my uncles is actually in his 60's and recently retired from his job and is still living with my grandmother. It's a bit sad, actually...

      Given my observations, I'm basically of the mind of kicking my kids out as soon as I think they have a basic chance of making it on their own. Maybe after college (or high-school if they don't elect to go to college) which is when my folks nudged out my sister and I out the door. At that age, you still have college friends and single workmates to build a social network IRL. My wife's family played things a bit differently and although she turned out okay, my brother in-law drifted for many years after college living at home. Fortunately, I have a few more years to think about it for my kids (1 and 4)...

    15. Re:My Anecdote Does Not Support Assertion by roc97007 · · Score: 1

      > I've also been aware of a couple of such cases myself. But, in those cases, the sons were struggling with significant psychological problems and would almost certainly been homeless without their parent's assistance.

      No no, you don't understand. I actually knew this guy in high school. I wasn't merely in the same group photo. He was not mentally, physically nor emotionally encumbered. His problem was much deeper, residing in his spirit. It was called "It's easier to sit on this couch than go outside and get a job". At first, because "getting jobs is scary", but later sitting on the couch became its own, sufficient justification. He had skills. He could demonstrate that if he was desperate for money. He just did not feel like he should have to work. Such people exist. Fortunately for society, they appear to still be relatively rare.

      I wonder what would have happened had he spent some time being homeless. Would he have pulled himself together and taken his place in the world? Personally, I would like to think so. We may never know.

      --
      Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
    16. Re:My Anecdote Does Not Support Assertion by roc97007 · · Score: 1

      > It's been my experience that kids do gain experience very quickly when they have to, but the older they are they, the harder they have it (because their built in support structure tends to get married and/or move away). Eventually, they appear to have no visible support structure and often lack the social skills to build a new one.

      Oh man, that's a great point. So if I may paraphrase, living your life requires some practice, development of skills, and some life experiences. And the younger you start (within reason), the better you are able to adapt to change. That does make sense.

      But, my nephew, he was absolutely certain he would get a job as a game tester and live like a king. All he had to do was practice Final Call of Warcraft a few hundred more hours.

      --
      Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
    17. Re:My Anecdote Does Not Support Assertion by roc97007 · · Score: 2

      Incidentally, I graduated high school June 6. By the 12th I was driving to another state to start college (summer session). In all fairness, this was mostly because home life sucked goats. And not even the goats were happy.

      --
      Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
    18. Re:My Anecdote Does Not Support Assertion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Making friends isn't lasting happiness either. He could just make some friends and play games with them..
      or do drugs with them.
      Anyhow.

    19. Re:My Anecdote Does Not Support Assertion by ShoulderOfOrion · · Score: 1

      Lots of truth there. Wish I had mod points.

    20. Re:My Anecdote Does Not Support Assertion by Incadenza · · Score: 1

      I think this "researcher" is full of shit. I think that we are still to blame for providing an easy and pervasive technological environment that allows them to bury their heads in their comfortable world of cyberspace and "social media", never having to come up for air. It's addictive as shit and they are all addicted to it. But, they're not at all interested in socializing IRL.

      This is the most insightful AC post in a long time.

      My kids can also socialize whatever they want (as long as their back by sunset, and if they don't, I do not mind picking them up), just like Danah Boyd did in her childhood. But still they spend an stupendous amount of time on social media - even when they are socializing.

      It is not uncommon for them to sit around as friends, but to interact only with their smartphones with people that are not around. And these are smart, social, outwards looking kids.

      We have to face it: it's the technology that is escapist and addictive by design.

    21. Re:My Anecdote Does Not Support Assertion by TheDarkMaster · · Score: 1

      Exactly. Basically socializing became too great a risk.

      --
      Religion: The greatest weapon of mass destruction of all time
    22. Re:My Anecdote Does Not Support Assertion by sd4f · · Score: 1

      It could be that once a certain amount of kids are wrapped in cotton wool and not allowed to leave the house, eventually, any others that still are able, won't have anyone to interact with, hence, it just pushes willing kids/parents to socialise online, anyway.

      I heard this idea when it comes to vaccines, that even though you might not vaccinate everyone, since just about everyone around someone who may be unvaccinated, will probably be vaccinated, as a result of that, they remain unlikely to contract a contagious illness and are benefiting from the high rate of vaccination. I'm not saying anyone should stop vaccinating at all, but going back to your concern, if your kids friends weren't able to come over or hang out due to their parents lack of permission, there's not much he or you could do about that.

    23. Re:My Anecdote Does Not Support Assertion by Saint+Fnordius · · Score: 1

      Ah, memories of my own pre-internet youth, where parents distrust any interactions their kids engage in that they don't fully understand. Back then it was this newfangled thing called Dungeons and Dragons, and it didn't take long for them to put out scary movies starring Tom Hanks to make our mothers think it was wrong.

      And here's the thing you don't grasp: your son *is* interacting. He is using games as a medium to socialise. And those teens with their noses buried in their phones are socialising as well, but in their secret medium that you don't understand.

      And that is the whole point: we have a burning desire to socialise, and at a certain age we want to socialise without Mum and Dad always peering over our shoulder and judging us. And if you try too hard, then you only give them some "outlaw chic", so that it becomes even more cool.

      But if you are posting this on Slashdot, then you must have had some geek exposure to begin with. So are you merely blind to your own past and how your own parents thought you were being antisocial, or are you merely trolling the rest of us geeks?

    24. Re:My Anecdote Does Not Support Assertion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You must have been a real pleasure to live with. Do give your wife my regards, won't you.

      Something pretty strange about someone who doesn't want to draw arbitrary, selfish lines in the dirt about where childhood ends and adulthood begins. I might even say that it's childish to obsess about age and maturity. Leads to stunted emotional growth, a lack of self-understanding and whatnot.

      God forbid we enjoy our lives rather than worry about money all the time.

    25. Re:My Anecdote Does Not Support Assertion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But, my nephew, he was absolutely certain he would get a job as a game tester and live like a king. All he had to do was practice Final Call of Warcraft a few hundred more hours.

      Sounds like he never paused long enough to do any research: game testers get paid a pittance.

    26. Re:My Anecdote Does Not Support Assertion by TheTurtlesMoves · · Score: 2

      My daughter is now 22 and living in a different country. But we had the same polices. Food, power, rent and video games are not free and i am not your cash cow. Also there is basic household cores that need to be done. Pull your weight or get your own place. In the end we made her get her own place. Mostly for being exceptionally rude to us. It help our relationship dramatically (shock horror power bills and *internet* bills made her panic). She still flunked school. But she is a stable happy person that is now working out whats next in life while she saves from a steady job.

      --
      The Grey Goo disaster happened 3 billion years ago. This rock is covered in self replicating machines!
    27. Re:My Anecdote Does Not Support Assertion by TheTurtlesMoves · · Score: 1

      Slashdot is as much as a geek thing as facebook. Its not.

      --
      The Grey Goo disaster happened 3 billion years ago. This rock is covered in self replicating machines!
    28. Re:My Anecdote Does Not Support Assertion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      His gaming "addiction" is not a lasting happiness, like making friends and sharing experiences with them would be.

      ... is he sharing his "addiction" with his friends? Perhaps sharing experiences with them? :P

      Not saying you're wrong, just wondering if in your quest to get him out and about and "omg go socialize", maybe you're ignoring the fact he is in fact socializing, just online.

      Captcha: sermon

    29. Re:My Anecdote Does Not Support Assertion by russotto · · Score: 1

      My mission is to make sure that he enjoys his entire life. His gaming "addiction" is not a lasting happiness, like making friends and sharing experiences with them would be.

      Friends grow up and grow apart. They go to different schools, have different experiences, then get married and have kids and it's all over. Making friends as an adult is very different than making friends as a kid, so there's not even that as an advantage. Learning to enjoy things without relying on anyone else to share in the enjoyment, that's a lasting happiness.

    30. Re:My Anecdote Does Not Support Assertion by roc97007 · · Score: 1

      I understand. You really don't want to put down the xbox controller. It's just too easy to stay and be mothered, and high scores give you a sense of accomplishment. Whatever works for you.

      --
      Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
    31. Re:My Anecdote Does Not Support Assertion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      methinks you have succumb to some of that "zomg media bias" you are decrying.
      yes there are incidents of kindergarteners being suspended for sexual assault for kissing a classmate or bringing a toy gun to school. That has happened ... maybe once or twice. It doesn't happen all the time, though people like you seem to think it does because it happens once and fox news reports on it all week long like it's a nationwide trend.

      Because they have an ideological axe to grind with feminists, and gun control advocates, or hell ... pretty much anyone they can point at and say "zomg they hate your freedomz, vote republican!" See the forest for the trees, bro. They're painting a bogus picture.

      I have two teenaged daughters in middle school.
      They all interact face to face just fine. It is not even remotely like a prison. They hang out unsupervised at the mall with their friends on the weekends. They play in the band at football games on friday nights.

      They DO have their heads buried in cell phones all the damn time because social media IS addictive (by design), and it is fucking pervasive, and nearly impossible to fend off as a parent.

    32. Re:My Anecdote Does Not Support Assertion by roc97007 · · Score: 1

      But, my nephew, he was absolutely certain he would get a job as a game tester and live like a king. All he had to do was practice Final Call of Warcraft a few hundred more hours.

      Sounds like he never paused long enough to do any research: game testers get paid a pittance.

      Also, they have to do more than just play games. He had some bizarre idea that he would get paid for high scores. I actually tried to work with him on it, doing some research online and showing him that the number of people doing it full time for a given company is fairly small, and they know how to collate data give presentations, and write reports. He would have serious competition, and would need to be able to express himself well verbally and in writing. (At the time he had a hard time completing a sentence. I think it was all the coco-puffs.) I encouraged him to take a writing class and a beginning programming class at the local community college, got him a copy of strunk and white and a programmable calculator, and then stepped back to see what he would do. He quit mid term because it was "too hard" and went back to the couch. Three weeks later I cut the cord. I should have done it earlier. When he got tired of living out of his car, he got a job, a roommate, and eventually a career.

      --
      Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
    33. Re:My Anecdote Does Not Support Assertion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think it boils down to an extreme risk-aversion caused by a spike in artificial risk imposed by society on large percentages of interaction. This is done by people who have vested interests in either corralling behavior, or by people with axes to grind.

      You forgot to mention all the hype surrounding the extremely rare kidnappings. Nightly news likes to talk about scary things since it gets peoples' attention, thing is if you look at the actual crime rates the US is actually quite safe even if you do really stupid things. True, the US might not compare that well to Europe, but that is relative and the few places in the US that are more dangerous are still pretty safe compared to third world countries (which aren't actually all that bad).

      2. Schools' social dynamics are becoming more and more like prisons, with ever more extreme punishments for the tiniest missteps in following increasingly chaotic and nonsensical rules. A wrong word, or out of context statement overheard by the wrong person used to get the student a dressing down or 'demerit' slip. Now it lands the student in front of the school psychologist, who then comes up with some 'disease' to label him with, ruining his future opportunities.. The fact that schools are now reaching outside their domains and into the home is quite scary.

      There is quite the irony in that statement. My experience from my school days (early 1990s) was the school administration wasn't really all that down on people until they did something distinctly out of line. This means minor incidents of repeated harassment/bullying were never addressed. The problem is if these seemingly minor incidents are repeated day-in day-out for years, you're setting the target up for exploding in a bad way. I'm glad I had a few people I could talk to who provided an emotional outlet, otherwise I might have been the one making a spectacularly deadly incident at a school (gawd that was hell).

    34. Re:My Anecdote Does Not Support Assertion by s0nicfreak · · Score: 1

      They go out of their way to NOT interact, let alone socialize, with anyone.

      Then what exactly is it that they are doing on their phones? Why do you think your son plays League of Legends and DOTA2 rather than a single player game? He, and those teens, ARE interacting and socializing - just in a different way than you do. In a way you don't understand.

    35. Re:My Anecdote Does Not Support Assertion by oreiasecaman · · Score: 1

      Not all of them. I still have childhood friends around, and I'm no youngster anymore (32 years right now). Of course, we don't hang out all the time as during our childhood time, but we regularly meet, knock a few at the bar...
      And I've made good friendships as an adult too, not as deep as the childhood ones, but very good friendships nevertheless. Maybe you just were unlucky, because I doubt I'm the only one around here like that.

      --
      This is a UDP joke, I don't care if you get it or not...
    36. Re:My Anecdote Does Not Support Assertion by xaxa · · Score: 1

      My mum claimed the same, but also had too many restrictions. She didn't give me any money, I had to ask for exactly what I wanted. But she spent her money so carefully, how could I ask for such frivolous things as my friends bought? I wanted black clothes, Magic cards and Warhammer, but she didn't want to buy them. My grandma took me shopping, so I got some clothes I wanted then; I think they'd had an argument.

      My best friend's parents were really cool. They took my friend to a music festival when he was about 13, and staying at their house meant sharing a bottle of wine at dinner, playing the music we liked to his dad (and listening to what he liked), and not being disturbed if we'd shut the door. Another friend's parents just kept out of the way, and said (once we were about 14) they they'd buy beer/cider/alcopops, so long as we drank it in their house, and cleaned up afterwards.

      My parents would stick a head round the door every 15 minutes after creeping up the stairs, would ask intrusive questions ("Does 'xaxa' have a girlfriend?") and pretty much failed to get the trust of anyone. I didn't invite friends round, but they didn't want to come anyway.

      I "joined" a couple of after-school clubs, which gave me about an hour after school to do what I wanted, until my mum picked me up. I like the irony that she had far less idea where I was, because not allowing me to do things meant I hid it from her. Most friends would just phone/text/nothing "I'll be an hour late, going to Games Workshop", my mum thought I was at Book Club.

      I signed up for Livejournal when I started at university (and moved out), and found the URL bookmarked on my mum's computer a while later. When he was about 16, my younger brother walked to a friend's house, about 200m up the road, and my mum followed (without him knowing) to check he got there OK...

    37. Re:My Anecdote Does Not Support Assertion by Midnight_Falcon · · Score: 1
      Thanks for this..it really makes me wonder about parents these days with their kid-tracking iPhone apps and glorified malware/RAT software like "SafeEyes" they install to get GPS history of their kids etc...my mom would have totally forced that on me, had she been technologically savvy and these things existed at the time.

      What I also find is that behavior like your mom following your brother to his friends house, and my mom listening in on my phone calls whenever she could (picking up the other line elsewhere in the house when she saw the phone lit up). This had the chilling effect of causing my friends not to want to hang out with me. How could they trust me if my mom was on my case all the time? They didn't want to get in trouble themselves, and once my mom made a phone call "I heard my son and your son talking about sex with girls.." to someone else's parents, my social life would tank and I'd stop getting invited to things. No one wants to hang out with someone who's mom is going to get on their case.

      My mom also had a habit of calling the other person's parents with any info she gleaned from listening in on conversations, with the intent on getting my friend in trouble for whatever reason. She was a very Catholic, puritanical person and not much in youth culture met with her approval, so you can imagine how frequent this was. She would exaggerate what she heard and attempt to paint the issue in the worst light possible for me and/or my friends.

      So yeah, next time parents are wondering why the kid is so glued to the smartphone and not going out and making friends..maybe they should take a long hard look at themselves. And phase out euphemisms like "overprotective" with more accurate terminology like "controlling" and "living vicariously through children."

    38. Re:My Anecdote Does Not Support Assertion by UnderCoverPenguin · · Score: 1

      I do see lots of teens out in public. But, all of those teens, ALL OF THEM, have their heads buried in their smartphones. They go out of their way to NOT interact, let alone socialize, with anyone.

      Maybe the friends they want to be with are n'tthere?

      While our daughter was in high school (and middle school), the 3 of us would often go to the mall. My girlfriend and I would alternate between shopping and watching our daughter from a discrete distance. This allowed her time with her friends - at least the ones whose parents also gave them enough space. If none of her friends were there, then yes, she'd be on her smart phone - but still managed to meet new friends. Sometimes, her group would use their phones to include friends not there, but usually just socialized with those present.

      --
      Don't try to out wierd me, three-eyes. I get stranger things than you, free with my breakfast cereal. --Zaphod Beeblebr
    39. Re:My Anecdote Does Not Support Assertion by spiderwebby · · Score: 1

      I used to play Counterstrike (1.6, then source for those keeping score) every moment I could when I was a kid. It was an escape for me, an escape from a world where I would go to school and try my bloody hardest only to be told that I need to try harder and then get bullied by my classmates. Five years later I was diagnosed with depression. I'm not saying that your son is the same as me, but sometimes it might be better to stop pushing and ask if he's okay. I wish I'd had that.

    40. Re:My Anecdote Does Not Support Assertion by Midnight_Falcon · · Score: 1

      Pretty much every teenager in my new neighborhood had a car (except me). Not sure where in NYC you were from, but this was in Queens.

  5. Simple Solution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Alcohol, the cause of and solution to all of life's problems.

  6. precise definition of "kids" by turkeydance · · Score: 1

    therein lies the problem.

    1. Re:precise definition of "kids" by Kell+Bengal · · Score: 1

      And also definition of 'socialisation'. When I was a late teen, I spent most of my time online chatting with friends on IM and IRC. It was my way of keeping in touch with friends after school, and wasn't limited by who could borrow the car or whether the mall was closed at midnight. We could chat about whatever it was we were interested in at the, whilst simultaneously play games or surfing the web or doing a dozen other things. I'm sure that facebook (for all its faults) is filling that same void for modern teens. I'll wager they're being more social and having more interactions than every before... it's just that their parents don't see it because they're not part of that world.

      --
      Scientists point out problems, engineers fix them
      altslashdot.org: The future of slashdot.
  7. yes and no by fermion · · Score: 4, Informative
    By the time I was a teenager in 80's, that is 13-19 years of age, the back by dark rule was being relaxed. I had homework to do so mostly I came home as school ended and did it and other things. I recall my older siblings doing the same, unless they had work, and spending endless hours on the phone talking to their friends. On non school nights and in the summer we would spend quite a bit of time out after dark.

    Here is what I see vis a vis the new constant communication paradigm. I see a lack of discipline. I see kids at school who need in constant communication with their parents. I see adults at work who need in constants communication with their lovers, thier spouse their kids, and whoever else will make them feel valuable as a person.

    This is a great change from the 80's when I talked to my parents maybe in the morning, definitely checked in by phone after school, than saw them whenever we both were home. I talked to my friends at school, where we made plans for whatever nefarious activities we might want. When I started college and later working, I certainly did not spend the whole day texting everyone. Honestly, at college I was normally around the people I wanted to be around, and a work I already generally knew what I needed to know for after work. I did not have to spend the day, as one ex-coworker of mine spend the day texting to try to come up with some activity for the evening.

    What I see here is pretty typical teenage logic, which is developmental appropriate, but hardly a major finding. If the lawgivers do not let me do what I want, I will find some way to circumvent it, and if it is bad it is their fault for making the law. In this case, i can't go wherever and whenever I want, so I will instead play with social media, and if it causes problems it is not my fault.

    Seriously though setting limits and fighting such logic is an important part of child rearing. There was a case in West Virginia where this girl was murdered by her two best friends, which was possible because she was allowed to sneak our of the house. There are cases of other children killing themselves over bullying because they cannot put down their phones and so are constantly receiving bullying texts. There is also cases where kids are getting really messed up sleep wise because they cannot put down their phones.

    There is really nothing special about this, and there is really nothing new. We always need to learn to live with technology, and parents need to help children learn to live with it. In some ways this is like TV where a new generation of parents really did not know how to balance the TV with the development of the child. It is certainly not the parents fault that it was a better choice to have a kid come home and watch tv instead of running unsupervised outside.

    --
    "She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
    1. Re:yes and no by ebno-10db · · Score: 1

      she was allowed to sneak our of the house

      Think about that one.

    2. Re:yes and no by dbIII · · Score: 1

      I see adults at work who need in constants communication with their lovers, thier spouse their kids, and whoever else will make them feel valuable as a person.

      That's my new pet hate for when several people are waiting around for one person to finish the sixth non-work related phone call of the day when there is nothing resembling a domestic crisis going on.

    3. Re:yes and no by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      In particular, Skylar had been caught frequently sneaking out of her first-floor bedroom window at night. “I tried to give her freedom, so we weren’t on top of her all the time,” Neese told the Associated Press. “Now, in hindsight, those parents who do that? More power to them. They should be.”

      a child or parent will understand

    4. Re:yes and no by ebno-10db · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You have an awfully strong reaction to me pointing out a nonsensical statement. I have to wonder though, what kind of teenager can't sneak out without their parents figuring it out, especially if their bedroom is on the 1st floor? Teenagers must not be very clever these days - probably comes from too much social media. Lastly, if she was "murdered by her two best friends", I suggest that the bigger problem was her choice of friends.

    5. Re:yes and no by TheRealMindChild · · Score: 1

      Or just maybe, parents of today know the horrible crap they pulled/trouble they got into, and have a better vector on how to prevent such things that their parents didn't

      Also, the law comes down like a hammer compared to when I was a kid. Stole something? You got a mean talking to by a police officer and told "I don't want to see you again". Now you will end up in court. Get into a fight and break someones nose? Possibly sued and/or court. Today ISN'T the same for our children as it was for our generation. It is reasonable to posit that the same upbringing isn't as appropriate

      --

      "When life gives you lemons, don't make lemonade. Make life take the lemons back!" -- Cave Johnson
    6. Re:yes and no by ColdWetDog · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I see kids at school who need in constant communication with their parents. I see adults at work who need in constants communication with their lovers, thier spouse their kids, and whoever else will make them feel valuable as a person.

      I see this as a fairly recent sea change and I'm puzzled by it. We've had to shut down personal cell phone use on the hospital floor by nurses and CNAs because too many of them were spending literally hours talking to family. It became intrusive as they would stop what they were doing to talk to their kid - who they talked to an hour ago. And it's not just one or two people, it's a significant number of staff members.

      When you ask them about it, most of them get defensive and say that they really need to keep close track of family and friends 'in case something happens'. Well, major events don't happen very often and the issues that they seem to be arguing over are at the 'who gets to take out the garbage today' level. I guess it's because you CAN keep in molecular contact with people these days. Growing up with just phones (the ones that were physically attached to wall with a wire), we would go hours, perhaps even whole days without knowing were family members and friends were.

      I do think it's really an addiction - people get a neurochemical warm and fuzzy and since it's easy to obtain, do it often. Perhaps we should work on cell phones that shock people after a certain number of minutes or texts...

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    7. Re:yes and no by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 2

      I'm on the receiving end of this. I need to be reachable due to work contracts (or my phone would be off a lot of the time) but since it's on, my wife calls me whenever she gets a change of pace (out of work, before a meeting, etc.) and gets upset if she can't reach me.

      I try to explain that when I was a kid, my friends' dads would leave at 5:30 to head to the city, might be able to be reachable by secretary, or might not, and would get home around 7PM. The husband and wife would review what needed to be talked about after dinner (8-ish). Bedtime was 10 and they had the weekends. But somehow that doesn't apply today/

      Frankly, I saw their relationships as stronger than my contemporaries'. Maybe that was just perception or selection bias, but most of them are still together (or widow[er]ed) and the divorce rate among my contemporaries is approaching half. I wonder if pervasive (invasive?) communications is fostering co-dependence.

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    8. Re:yes and no by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Most teenagers are a lot less clever than they think. We know. We always know.

    9. Re:yes and no by ebno-10db · · Score: 2

      Most teenagers are a lot less clever than they think.

      Yes, but the same is true of parents.

    10. Re:yes and no by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      True, though parents tend to have that whole "been there, done that" thing going for them.

    11. Re:yes and no by knorthern+knight · · Score: 2

      > Also, the law comes down like a hammer compared to when I was a kid.
      > Stole something? You got a mean talking to by a police officer and
      > told "I don't want to see you again". Now you will end up in court. Get
      > into a fight and break someones nose? Possibly sued and/or court. Today
      > ISN'T the same for our children as it was for our generation. It is
      > reasonable to posit that the same upbringing isn't as appropriate

      How true. I'm retired. I grew up in the 60's. Kids would be out all day long during summer break. And we didn't have cell phones either. Parents were getting birth-control pills for their 12-year-old daughters. People who used condoms were laughed at. If you got an STD, no problem. A few shots at the local health clinic, and you'd be back in action in a couple of weeks. My parents were rather strict, so I didn't get in on the fun. I was envious of the kids that did.

      Then shit happened
      1) herpes
      2) AIDS
      3) easier availability of drugs
      4) "Megan's Law" and its variants
      5) asshole DA's trying to look "tough on crime" with "zero tolerance".

      So parents were genuinely concerned about their kids getting herpes or AIDS, or becoming hooked on drugs. Add to that asshole DA's merely concerned with getting more "notches in their belts". It's now gotten to the point where...
      * if age-of-consent in a state is 16
      * a boy and girl just weeks away from their 16th birthday are caught having sex
      * they're *BOTH* convicted of statutory rape (sex with an under-16) and they *BOTH* become "registered sex offenders" for the rest of their lives

      > Today ISN'T the same for our children as it was for our generation
      >. It is reasonable to posit that the same upbringing isn't as appropriate

      What he said. The risks are much, much greater, and increased risk-avoidance is necessary.

      --

      I'm not repeating myself
      I'm an X window user; I'm an ex-Windows user
    12. Re:yes and no by ShoulderOfOrion · · Score: 2

      What's really interesting about this phenomenon is that it isn't a generational thing. Like you, I think it involves a much deeper level of human psychology or even mental physiology. When I was growing up 50 some-odd years ago this sort of constant-on connection just wasn't possible and I rarely saw it practiced. Today, there are a sizable number of people--even in my generation or older--who seem to be addicted to this sort of constant contact. I see senior citizens in the grocery store calling their SO to confirm what brand of toothpaste to buy. Older wives calling their husbands about some routine question that could be better handled with lmgtfy.com. Yes, it's a bit more blatantly obvious among the younger crowd, but I also know some young folks who disdain the entire thing. I actually feel sorry for them. My family, friends and coworkers know that I'm famously difficult to reach most times and chalk it up to my being a grumpy old curmudgeon with no technological savvy (even though I know how to design and build that smartphone they're wasting time with and occasionally have to show them how to root it). The younger ones who refuse to be tethered 24/7, however, are treated as if they have some sort of mental defect.

      Another 1859 Carrington event would be really interesting, as if millions of voices suddenly cried out in banal chatter and were suddenly silenced. I wonder if the race would survive.

    13. Re:yes and no by fermion · · Score: 1
      You know, all this is true. Men in my extended community were some of the first of die of AIDS as I was entering my free sexual period. Yet I had no cell phone, would go off on my bike, be gone all day, and was unsupervised after school. Maybe it was luck. Maybe I wasn't dumb. Maybe I was because I was poor, as it was the mostly the richer kids I knew who did recreational drugs and still got through school. We had drug houses across from where I went to school, where drugs were plentiful and cheap, but it was clear that that was not the path to success. I am not a person who thinks the war on drugs is anything but a waste of money, but I also never saw them as a way to a better life. For kids I think we should focus on the mostly likely path to a caring and successful life, they will figure out the fun detours on their own.

      As far as 'meagan law' danger, it is safer now than when I growing up. When I was a kid, at least 28 teenage boys were raped, tortured, and murdered over a three year period. When parents reported them missing, the police just assumed they ran away. The murders would have continued and probably never be solved if not one of the co-conspirators shooting the ringleader and then confessing. Not even then the police did not want to deal with it. In a few cities we still have a high rate of abduction and murders of children. Not the police force is more professional and will tend to take these cases seriously. If I had been born a few years earlier, I might have been one of the dead.

      --
      "She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
    14. Re:yes and no by SirChive · · Score: 1

      I agree with you. I also grew up 50 some-odd years ago and look back fondly on those years when every daylight hour outside of school would be spent climbing trees, exploring creeks, playing pick-up baseball games and roaming the wider neighborhood with a pack of friends.

      The radical change that's taking place now is not specific to any generation. It's a case of modern technology overwhelming the ancient human brain. We are a social species and evolved in small tribal groups. Our brains give us positive feedback when we interact with others. We get a small jolt of dopamine when we socialize. We get a feeling of security and connection which are valuable for building tribal cohesion.

      The trouble comes when you are able to pull a little electronic slab out of your pocket and get this little burst of pleasure on demand. It reminds me of old movies from the 40s when everybody whips out a cigarette at any available moment. Social media is addictive. I go to a restaurant now and a good 80% of the other customers either have their cellphone in their hands or sitting on the table by the plate where it can be constantly checked. It's middle-aged people just as much as young people doing this.

      What's getting lost here is a sense of self and self-reliance. The ability to be content when alone is an important part of adulthood. I've never liked the idea that I walk through my life and anybody in the whole world can reach out and ring a bell in my pocked, demanding my attention. It's like being on a tether. I cherish my independence as well as my social connections.

      But this seems to be getting lost in any general sense. People seem to be developing an early form of hive-mind where constant connection with others is demanded.

    15. Re:yes and no by s0nicfreak · · Score: 1

      A teen with a small house (where you can hear any movement made) and a light sleeper for a mom and/or a night-owl dad. My kids are very lucky they don't have to sneak out - i.e. that we'll just let them go (because sneaking out would be damn near impossible), but any conversation that anyone wants to keep private in this house must be done in text form (because we can all hear each other from anywhere in the house).

    16. Re:yes and no by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Perhaps we should work on cell phones that shock people after a certain number of minutes or texts...
       
      Perhaps we could have them jailed.
       
      Or executed...
       
      Makes about as much sense as what you said. Maybe you should find out more about the root of the "problem" and decide from there instead of admitting that you don't understand the situation but you want to resort to a technological answer to a human problem. Slashdot really pulls in the odd balls anymore.
       
      Hell, you don't even know if there is a problem, you just want a fix for something you don't like. Why don't you take the high rode and live by your standard and let others decide what's right for them?

    17. Re:yes and no by s0nicfreak · · Score: 1

      I think it also has to do with seeming unrelated societal shifts. For example, confirming that someone is going to take out the trash is important, at least in my neighborhood - we'd get a hefty fine if we left out a full can anytime other than between 6pm the day before trash pickup - 6pm the day of trash pickup. So if no one takes out the trash, we pretty much have to live with a week's worth of old trash in our kitchen.

      In the days before cellphones, this would have either been discussed the night before at the dinner table, or there would have been an established chore list/timetable. But as society has shifted, family dinners have become rare, and the idea of giving your offspring a list of established chores sometimes appals parents (I have actually had other parents say to me that I am abusing my children, treating them like servants, because they have set chores; and if I can't do everything myself, I need to hire a maid). So when can this be discussed, if one does not call a parent at work?



      If I need to meet up with someone who does not use cellphones (they are usually older people), we discuss that we'll meet at x at 3:00, and then we meet there. If I need to meet up with someone that DOES use a cellphone, it's not uncommon for them to call or text and say "I decided to stop somewhere- let's meet up at 4 instead" or "I'm hungry, let's meet at y instead." I don't know if this is a shift (where rudeness in this fashion has become acceptable) or if the timeframe for this to be acceptable has become much smaller due to cellphones giving people the ability to notify people of changes like this at the last minute (because before cellphones it wouldn't be too rude to call, say, the day before and say let's meet at y instead so we can eat")...

    18. Re:yes and no by stenvar · · Score: 1

      Many people used to live and work much closer together, so constant interaction and frequent little "neurochemical warm and fuzzies" are the norm for our species, just like for most primates and mammals.

      Your suggestion that this constant reinforcement of relationships is something we should punish with electric shocks is perverse.

  8. really? by roc97007 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    So what about the situation where the parent is addicted to social media but the child is not? This isn't a rhetorical question.

    I dunno, I think the idea that parents being over-protective driving children online is one of those things that's easy to prove anecdotally, because there are so many overprotective parents to choose from, and as a substantial number of children could be said to be addicted to social media, there would be a significantly large intersect between the two groups. But I wonder if there's really any meaning there.

    I think it is true that society (not just parents) has made it more of a challenge for children to interact with each other. Geeze, the grade school playground is looking more and more like something out of A Wrinkle in Time. (...Camazotz... ...Read a book!...) I think a case could be made that there are a number of factors involved, including the observation that if it's news, it's rare by definition even if it's not, for profit reasons, presented as such, and this has given the vast unwashed public, who as a group has a less-than-college-level understanding of statistics, some wrong ideas. (Incidents of people being hit by falling pianos up 100%! Panic!)

    I continue to believe that this tendency, if it exists, merely gives my daughter much shorter lines to stand in as she journeys through life, as more and more of her competition is staring at a screen when they should be doing something important. So I don't worry about it overmuch.

    --
    Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
    1. Re:really? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "as more and more of her competition is staring at a screen when they should be doing something important."

              And what in this day and age of bread and circuses would that be?

      celle

    2. Re:really? by roc97007 · · Score: 1

      "as more and more of her competition is staring at a screen when they should be doing something important."

              And what in this day and age of bread and circuses would that be?

      celle

      Ok, fair enough. I'd say, you could be one of the people getting thrown bread, or you could be one of the people in the ring, or you could be up in the box seats directing the bread and circus. I know where I'd rather she be.

      --
      Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
  9. Hear this all the time from corporations. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Don't blame us and the billions we pump into marketing and marketing research! It's your own fault for choosing X!

    Either marketing has an effect or it doesn't. It does, and so that's why money is spent on it. I'm not saying full blame should be put on McDonalds or whatever for making people fat or whatever, but let's not be naive about it.

  10. Crime plummeted? by AK+Marc · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Crime among teens didn't change relative to society as a whole, as far as the stats I found in a quick glance. What changed was the *perception* of crime.

  11. yep, things have changed by sribe · · Score: 2

    There are many of us of a certain age (50ish) who remember during summer vacations being told not to be at home until after dark. Seriously.

    1. Re:yep, things have changed by PolygamousRanchKid+ · · Score: 3, Interesting

      There are many of us of a certain age (50ish) who remember during summer vacations being told not to be at home until after dark. Seriously.

      There are many of us of a certain age (50ish) who remember during summer vacations being told not to be at home until after summer vacation. Seriously.

      --
      Schroedinger's Brexit: The UK is both in and out of the EU at the same time!
    2. Re:yep, things have changed by ebno-10db · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Even younger than that. My wife is fortyish and remembers it. It was common for parents to basically kick kids out of the house so they could have some time to themselves. Neither I nor anybody else I know resented it. It was basically "go out and play with your friends". Who knew we were all abused and neglected children?

    3. Re:yep, things have changed by dbIII · · Score: 1

      I seemed to have several years like that under canine supervison. So long as I took the dog my parents let me go out all day.

    4. Re:yep, things have changed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I frankly said don't get the whole "before dark" thing. What's rotation of our planet got to do with what kids can and can't do?

    5. Re:yep, things have changed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, and look how your generation turned out.

    6. Re:yep, things have changed by CowTipperGore · · Score: 1

      Even younger than that. My wife is fortyish and remembers it. It was common for parents to basically kick kids out of the house so they could have some time to themselves.

      I'm not yet fortyish and that's how it worked in my house as a kid. Mom literally locked the door and we weren't allowed back in the house until dinner time.

    7. Re:yep, things have changed by TheTurtlesMoves · · Score: 1

      Yea.. I am younger and we were like that. Best holidays ever. Especially once you have car. Of course the job to pay for the car and gas did cut into fun time a bit.

      --
      The Grey Goo disaster happened 3 billion years ago. This rock is covered in self replicating machines!
    8. Re:yep, things have changed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My father tried that with me, but it only caused anxiety, and even panic attacks at times, to me. I learned much later that I am on the autistic spectrum, and that explained a lot of my issues with social situations.

      After I accepted myself for what I am, things went much easier: I didn't force myself into situations I found repugnant, but sought out those that fit me. Now I am married, have a kid and am finishing my PhD.

    9. Re:yep, things have changed by s0nicfreak · · Score: 1

      It gives the kid a general time to come home (to eat dinner and such) without them needing a watch.

      Unfortunately a lot of people subconsciously interpreted that as "Being out after dark is dangerous". This creates an issue in the winter months, when kids often aren't home from school or done with homework until after dark.

    10. Re:yep, things have changed by wvmarle · · Score: 1

      Indeed that's exactly one of those "insights" your parents didn't have yet! Or maybe they didn't read enough "how to raise my child" type of web sites. Oh wait, make that watching Oprah. Oh, wait... they didn't have anything to scare them yet... what backwards times were that!

  12. You mean like this? by nbauman · · Score: 4, Interesting

    This one has everything -- video monitoring the streets too. (Contrary to vendor claims, the video hasn't prevented crime.) This sounds like one of those 1950s movies where, the next thing you know, the teenagers will be playing rock and roll and dancing. Don't worry, they don't do this to white kids.

    http://www.dnainfo.com/new-york/20131115/crown-heights/police-want-cut-wi-fi-at-crown-heights-mcdonalds-prevent-crime

    Police Want to Cut Wi-Fi at Crown Heights McDonald's to Prevent Crime
    By Sonja Sharp on November 15, 2013 8:38am
    DNAinfo

    CROWN HEIGHTS — Phone thefts and teen brawls have gotten so bad at a Crown Heights McDonald's that police asked the management to turn off the Wi-Fi as a way of scattering the after-school crowds, DNAinfo New York has learned.

    “We asked them to kill the Wi-Fi there from 2 p.m. to 6 p.m. so it doesn’t become a hangout," Capt. Eddie Lott, commanding officer of the 77th Precinct, said of the McDonald's at Utica Avenue and Eastern Parkway. "That McDonald's is a big hangout for young people."

    Lott said he had reached an agreement with the managers of the McDonald's to cut the Wi-Fi in the afternoons, but it was still going strong this week — and McDonald's corporate office said the company had not agreed to anything yet.

    "As good corporate citizens, we are working with the police to ensure the safety of our customers," the company said in a statement, adding that that McDonald's has hired additional security.

    "The police have presented many solutions, one of which includes turning off the Wi-Fi."

    The 77th Precinct has seen a 19 percent jump in robberies so far this year compared to the previous year, coupled with a 10 percent increase in felony assaults, NYPD statistics show. Grand larcenies, which police said include many phone thefts, have spiked by nearly 30 percent.

    The precinct did not release separate crime statistics for Utica Avenue and Eastern Parkway.

    While the intersection is far from the only problem spot in the neighborhood, police in both the 77th and the 71st precincts have repeatedly called it one of the most troubling. Earlier this fall, Lott put an NYPD SkyWatch tower at the intersection, videotaping 360 degrees 24 hours a day as both a deterrent and a way of catching suspects after crimes occur.

    "That’s why we have the SkyWatch there — we want to prevent those things from happening," Lott told residents in September when asked about the large group fights that routinely break out on the corner, particularly on Fridays.

    "Hopefully we can abate that and it won’t become the problem that it was the end of last school year."

    Teens, too, say the fights and thefts there have become routine.

    "It's very violent — people get chased, jumped, beat up," said Melissa, 16, a student at nearby Clara Barton High School.

    "It'll be three girls, five boys, and then their friends jump in. A lot of people get their phones stolen here. People from other schools, if they see someone with a phone, they'll take it."

    But while it may curb crime, regular customers like Devonte, 16, said they would be unhappy about losing wireless access in the McDonald's.

    "The library's closed a lot, so I can't go there," Devonte said. "The Wi-Fi brings me here mostly.... It'd be kind of upsetting if they turned it off."

    FamousandRich
    a month ago
    Why don't the geniuses at NYPD just put a pair of cops on post at the location or is that just too easy for these idiots to figure out?

    1. Re:You mean like this? by CodeBuster · · Score: 1

      This sounds like a perfect use case for The Mosquito anti-loitering device. To summarize for those who aren't familiar, the basic idea here is to discourage loitering of young people by playing a loud and obnoxious tone continually or in bursts at around 17.4 Khz, which while audible to most persons 25 years of age or younger, is much less audible or completely inaudible to older adults. This takes advantage of the fact that hearing, especially at the high pitched edge of the audible range, tends to decline with age. These types of devices can usually be configured to activate or deactivate between certain times, upon detection of motion or manually.

    2. Re:You mean like this? by AdamColley · · Score: 2

      Oh yes, mechanical child abuse, what a good idea.

      We have those abominations here and let me tell you, being over 25 or even over 35 is no guarantee you won't hear them.

      Ban the mosquitoes, not the kids.

    3. Re:You mean like this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why don't the geniuses at NYPD just put a pair of cops on post at the location or is that just too easy for these idiots to figure out?

      That would be racial profiling.

    4. Re:You mean like this? by nbauman · · Score: 1

      You may have noticed that persons under 25 are the main customers of that branch of McDonald's.

      Outside McDonald's, it's a public street. It would probably be a violation of the noise laws to play deliberately annoying sounds.

    5. Re:You mean like this? by CodeBuster · · Score: 1

      We have those abominations here and let me tell you, being over 25 or even over 35 is no guarantee you won't hear them.

      You're free to take your business elsewhere. I believe that's why they call it a free market economy.

      Ban the mosquitoes, not the kids.

      It's called private property and the police cannot seem to be bothered with "low priority" calls these days. Indeed, their priority on a loitering complaint, short of rioting and looting, is generally somewhere between barely interested and not their problem. What's a business owner to do about unruly packs of young people driving away paying customers when banning them from the premises is either not practical or not enforceable as a matter of law?

    6. Re:You mean like this? by CodeBuster · · Score: 1

      You may have noticed that persons under 25 are the main customers of that branch of McDonald's.

      Perhaps, but I wonder how much they're really spending. For example, here in the United States the Six Flags corporation, which operates themed parks around the country, used to market heavily to teenagers until they realized three things. First, unruly teenagers scare away families and especially families with young children. Second, they tend to break things. Third and finally, they don't spend as much as you might think. In response to these realizations, they reduced the marketing to teenagers, kicked out the troublemakers and their profits improved. Coincidence? I think not.

    7. Re:You mean like this? by ColdWetDog · · Score: 2

      Why don't the geniuses at NYPD just put a pair of cops on post at the location or is that just too easy for these idiots to figure out?

      Because they'd get their cell phones stolen. Jeez. Didn't you read the article you posted? It's dangerous out there.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    8. Re:You mean like this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This one has everything -- video monitoring the streets too. (Contrary to vendor claims, the video hasn't prevented crime.) This sounds like one of those 1950s movies where, the next thing you know, the teenagers will be playing rock and roll and dancing. Don't worry, they don't do this to white kids.

      http://www.dnainfo.com/new-york/20131115/crown-heights/police-want-cut-wi-fi-at-crown-heights-mcdonalds-prevent-crime

      Police Want to Cut Wi-Fi at Crown Heights McDonald's to Prevent Crime
      By Sonja Sharp on November 15, 2013 8:38am
      DNAinfo

      CROWN HEIGHTS — Phone thefts and teen brawls have gotten so bad at a Crown Heights McDonald's that police asked the management to turn off the Wi-Fi as a way of scattering the after-school crowds, DNAinfo New York has learned.

      “We asked them to kill the Wi-Fi there from 2 p.m. to 6 p.m. so it doesn’t become a hangout," Capt. Eddie Lott, commanding officer of the 77th Precinct, said of the McDonald's at Utica Avenue and Eastern Parkway. ....

      Why don't the geniuses at NYPD just put a pair of cops on
      post at the location or is that just too easy for these idiots to figure out?

      Welcome to the New "New York", just like the old New York but with a live video feed for film at the head of the 6oclock news.

    9. Re:You mean like this? by nbauman · · Score: 1

      You may have noticed that persons under 25 are the main customers of that branch of McDonald's.

      Perhaps, but I wonder how much they're really spending. For example, here in the United States the Six Flags corporation, which operates themed parks around the country, used to market heavily to teenagers until they realized three things. First, unruly teenagers scare away families and especially families with young children. Second, they tend to break things. Third and finally, they don't spend as much as you might think. In response to these realizations, they reduced the marketing to teenagers, kicked out the troublemakers and their profits improved. Coincidence? I think not.

      Was that before or after they went bankrupt?

    10. Re:You mean like this? by CodeBuster · · Score: 1

      After. The bankruptcy was a Chapter 11 reorganization, so the new shareholders were motivated both to prevent a repeat performance and increase the value of their equity going forward. I think that after looking at the stock performance since the reorganization, you'll agree that the effort was largely successful. In fact, a chapter 11 bankruptcy often provides a good opportunity to pick up a quality reorganized company at an attractive price, especially when the underlying business is still good in principle. Unfortunately for us average investors these deals often involve the company being taken private for a time before re-emerging as a new IPO which means that the best returns usually go to the private equity guys. Even so, a company that continues to grow after the post-bankruptcy IPO can still deliver outstanding value to an ordinary investor, especially when the company is later acquired by another company at a premium to the appreciated share price.

    11. Re:You mean like this? by TheTurtlesMoves · · Score: 1

      I'm 38 and i can hear them. They don't work either.

      --
      The Grey Goo disaster happened 3 billion years ago. This rock is covered in self replicating machines!
    12. Re:You mean like this? by wvmarle · · Score: 1

      Why don't the geniuses at NYPD just put a pair of cops on post at the location or is that just too easy for these idiots to figure out?

      Pure economics. Cops cost money (salary etc), so having McD switch off the WiFi is cheaper.

      McD unwilling to do this, has of course also to do with economics. Without the WiFi they'd lose many of their afternoon customers.

    13. Re:You mean like this? by AdamColley · · Score: 1

      I have a right to walk the street without being assaulted.

      Additionally I live in a relatively free country without laws against loitering.

      Also, the mosquito that bothers me is on the side of a building at a junction of two roads, they do not own the roads, the footpath or indeed anything but the building.

      The result of this is I'm cycling to a junction and am assaulted by an offensive sound drilling into my head, the sort of distraction I and others do NOT need before riding into traffic.

      You want to give your basic rights away, fine, but keep your grubby fingers off mine.

  13. Media Distortion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The media distortion described is absolutely true. In the 24 hour cable news cycle, every kidnapping, abuse, or (dare I say) mass shooting is plastered across multiple networks for a couple days. People get the gut feeling that frequency of occurrence is high, because our brains are wired to treat news as local. If a cave man saw someone killed, he actually saw it. We are really bad at making the distinction that back in 1800 there were about a billion people, and now there are about 6x that, and back in 1800 if something didn't happen in your particular town you were unlikely to hear about it. So if in 1800 there was one kidnapping and teen murder every 20 years in your small town, it means today in a country of 300M you are going to be having them nearly constantly.

    OBTW, this is the same logic that produces kooky behavior to protect from mass killings. Yea, mass shootings are real, but the odds of your kid getting involved in one are about the same as winning the lottery, being eaten by a shark or hit by lightning. Not high enough to really worry about or change school policy, but we do anyway "just in case". The odds are way higher that your kid will get hit by a car or come down with cancer.

    1. Re:Media Distortion by ebno-10db · · Score: 4, Interesting

      And people eat it up. My 10 y.o. daughter isn't allowed to walk home from school, which is two blocks away. She hates it because the bus takes 40 minutes instead of 5. We live in a low crime area, and we've asked if we have to sign a permission form or something to allow her to walk home. Nope, can't do it. District policy. Child must either take the bus or be picked up by a parent.

      It's nuts. I, and everyone else who lived too close for a bus, was expected to walk to and from school by ourselves when we were in kindergarten. There were crossing guards for major streets. People say "the world isn't like when we were kids". They're right - it's safer! (that does depend somewhat on your age, but things have been getting safer for years).

      I tell my daughter to walk to school. She complains it's cold. I ask "did we forget to buy you a warm coat? Hat, gloves?". Nope, all is in order. "So get out and walk!". I feel a little weird because my neighbors drive their kids to the same school (seriously) or walk with them. I wonder when Child Protective Services is going to pay me a visit.

    2. Re:Media Distortion by R3d+M3rcury · · Score: 1

      Nope, can't do it. District policy. Child must either take the bus or be picked up by a parent.

      Tell the school to kiss your ass. They don't have the power to say how your kid gets to school or how they get home. They will certainly try to pretend that they do and will make a bunch of noise. But that's about all they can do.

    3. Re:Media Distortion by ebno-10db · · Score: 2

      They don't have the power to say how your kid gets to school

      No, they don't. She walks.

      or how they get home

      If she tries to walk home she'll get in trouble. My wife and I can scream and fight. Hell, we could get a lawyer (people sometimes have to do that when it's a serious issue). Could we fight city hall? Yes. Is it worth it for this one minor stupidity? No. It'll make her life more difficult. At least next year she gets to walk home.

    4. Re:Media Distortion by Nivag064 · · Score: 1

      About 55 years ago in England, I walked to and from school when I was 5 years old - even if it rained.

      I now live in New Zealand, all my children walked to & from school. My youngest is now 16, he walks to & from school, takes him under 20 minutes. He has a lot more freedom to stay back to do things at school, or to get there early for meetings. It must be very stressful & time consuming when a parent has to drive children to & from school - and very limiting when children have to rely on public transport.

    5. Re:Media Distortion by __aaltlg1547 · · Score: 1

      OBTW, this is the same logic that produces kooky behavior to protect from mass killings. Yea, mass shootings are real, but the odds of your kid getting involved in one are about the same as winning the lottery, being eaten by a shark or hit by lightning. Not high enough to really worry about or change school policy, but we do anyway "just in case". The odds are way higher that your kid will get hit by a car or come down with cancer.

      Nonsense on the cancer. Gun violence kills twice as many kids than cancer. But most of it doesn't occur in schools or in any mass incidents.

      To put some other things in perspective
      * It is almost 2 times more likely that your kid will shoot himself than that somebody else will shoot him.
      * If he's murdered, it will most likely be by someone he knows.

    6. Re:Media Distortion by CowTipperGore · · Score: 1

      Tell the school to kiss your ass. They don't have the power to say how your kid gets to school or how they get home. They will certainly try to pretend that they do and will make a bunch of noise. But that's about all they can do.

      Some will have you arrested. This dad wasn't allowed to walk into the school and pick up his kid. Instead, he was expected to stand outside in a line with vehicles for 40 minutes.

    7. Re:Media Distortion by TheTurtlesMoves · · Score: 1

      Well NZ public transport is crap. Its not all that bad. In fact moving from NZ to Austria was great for my daughter, as its one of the best public transport system in world and cheap. It gave her the freedom of a car before she could drive.

      --
      The Grey Goo disaster happened 3 billion years ago. This rock is covered in self replicating machines!
    8. Re:Media Distortion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I once had one of those uncrossable divide moments when listening to the mother of an 18-year-old lament having to drive her daughter to her part time job at 6 am because the train station "wasn't safe". Being a non-parent, I sympathized and otherwise kept my mouth shut on "And what are you going to do when she goes away to Uni, minus any kind of street smarts?" But then I'd taken my first solo ride on a city bus when I was six years old, and I did notice how certain of my peers played to their parents' fears, when it suited them.

    9. Re:Media Distortion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Gun violence is not mass shooting. I've looked at some of those "childhood" gun violence statistics. They typically include "children" as old as 19. The vast majority of gun violence is, as you point out, self inflicted. It is also heavily weighted to males aged 15-19.

    10. Re:Media Distortion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's nuts. I, and everyone else who lived too close for a bus, was expected to walk to and from school by ourselves when we were in kindergarten. There were crossing guards for major streets. People say "the world isn't like when we were kids". They're right - it's safer! (that does depend somewhat on your age, but things have been getting safer for years).

      Unless you watch the evening news. Even as crime dropped in the 1990s (which has been attributed to Roe vs Wade). coverage of major crimes has increased greatly. Many people are afraid of the outside due to news hyping all the crime, even though there is very little crime.

    11. Re:Media Distortion by s0nicfreak · · Score: 1

      The part I just can't understand, is that car accidents are the #1 killer of kids... and yet, for some reason, parents feel it is so much safer to drive their kid to/from school than to let the kid walk...

    12. Re:Media Distortion by Nivag064 · · Score: 1

      It depends where you are in New Zealand and what routes you need. In Wellington in peak times there were buses every 10 minutes going to the CBD from near where we lived in Hataitai, some routes had more frequent buses.

      In Wellington, even when the schools were served by buses we could use, it was still quicker to walk direct to the school - after allowing time to walk to the bus stop and average waiting times.

      I now live near Albany on the North Shore of Auckland, the bus frequency is close to abysmal. Every 45 minutes off peak, and buses stop running early on Saturday night.

      No doubt that the public transport in NZ could be vastly improved!

    13. Re:Media Distortion by wvmarle · · Score: 1

      Refuse to pay for the school bus?

  14. Priceless quote FTFA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

    "But for the sake of argument, let’s agree that we have a crisis."

    Hysterical!

  15. It takes an adult by smittyoneeach · · Score: 1

    . . .to admit to lousy parenting and invest personal time in the children.

    --
    Get thee glass eyes, and, like a scurvy politician, seem to see things thou dost not.--King Lear
    1. Re:It takes an adult by ebno-10db · · Score: 1

      . . .to admit to lousy parenting and invest personal time in the children.

      Huh? Talk about a knee jerk response. "Investing" too much time (i.e. being overprotective) is exactly what's being blamed here. I don't think social media is a major social problem, but I do think parents are overly protective. What we need is a little more neglect, like I enjoyed.

    2. Re:It takes an adult by Nethemas+the+Great · · Score: 1

      Being overprotective doesn't necessarily have much of anything to do with investing time in your child. You can chain a dog up--to keep them safe--and you can hire a dog walker to keep them occupied all without necessarily spending any of your own time playing with it. Frankly I see a lot of chained up dogs as well as a lot of strays, but far less often do I see involved parents.

      --
      Two of my imaginary friends reproduced once ... with negative results.
    3. Re:It takes an adult by ebno-10db · · Score: 1

      You can chain a dog up ...

      Most people are a little less extreme with their kids. That, and kids and teenagers being much smarter than dogs, means it requires serious involvement (albeit not of a productive variety) to keep them chained up without physically chaining them.

    4. Re:It takes an adult by Mr0bvious · · Score: 2

      Huh? Talk about a knee jerk response. "Investing" too much time (i.e. being overprotective) is exactly what's being blamed here. I don't think social media is a major social problem, but I do think parents are overly protective. What we need is a little more neglect, like I enjoyed.

      "invest personal time in the children" != "being overprotective"

      "being overprotective" == "being overprotective"

      I'm very pro 'independence", allowing my children to have freedom and the responsibility to make good decisions, often by allowing them to make (and learn from) bad decisions. But there is nothing wrong with 'spending time with my children' to guide them, teach them and encourage them to be independent and do things on their own without requiring supervision (I hate that word 'supervision'). But it's equally important to do things together, learn to work and socialise together - that includes allowing my children to socialise with us adults, be part of our conversations and have their say and be listened to.

      I had a lot of freedom as a child, I got up to all sorts of (mostly harmless) things - these helped shape me, provided me with the ability to make sensible decisions and a whole load of independence. But my parents still spent a lot of time with me - they're not mutually exclusive things. They used their time with me to equip me to be independent, social, thoughtful, etc. They became a sounding board to whom I could go to with any questions/problems with out the fear of being embarrassed/chastised/other poor response. They always had the time for me and for that I'm grateful - but I certainly was not 'over protected'.

      --
      Never happened. True story.
    5. Re:It takes an adult by ebno-10db · · Score: 1

      "invest personal time in the children" != "being overprotective"

      Not necessarily the same thing. Nevertheless being overprotective does require time. Hence smitty_one_each's comment criticizing parents for not "invest[ing] personal time in the children" doesn't make sense. What's needed isn't investing more time, but investing it in a way that's better than being overprotective.

    6. Re:It takes an adult by Mr0bvious · · Score: 1

      What's needed isn't investing more time, but investing it in a way that's better than being overprotective

      Sounds like we're in fierce agreement :)

      --
      Never happened. True story.
    7. Re:It takes an adult by ebno-10db · · Score: 1

      Ok, I'll change my position :)

    8. Re:It takes an adult by Talderas · · Score: 1
      --
      "Lack of speed can be overcome. In the worst case by patience." --Znork
    9. Re:It takes an adult by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Pretty much every time I go to the mall or park I see parents with their children on leashes. Sure, not with a choke collar or anything, but rather the cute little animal shaped backpacks where the animal's tail trails off to the parent who is dragging the child along. As such, I would contend they are as extreme, at least here in the good ole US of A.

    10. Re:It takes an adult by s0nicfreak · · Score: 1

      They wake up at 6 to get ready for school, and are driven to school. They are in the school from about 8 - 3, with the doors locked. The "leash" is then handed back to their parents at 3, and they are driven to some sort of after school activity which has its own chain, then home to do an hour or two of homework. By the time that's done, it's either dark or otherwise deemed too late to be let off the chain to run around for awhile.

      It's not difficult to keep a child on these chains because they don't know any different. All the children around them are on chains too. A dog that has never in its life been let off the chain, will not try to escape from the chain, because he has no concept of there being anything to escape TO. It is only the dogs that have been let off the chain sometimes that try to escape.

    11. Re:It takes an adult by s0nicfreak · · Score: 1

      It takes only seconds to say "No little Jimmy, you can not go outside and play without adult supervision. it's not safe." and then watch as Jimmy goes safely to his room to use facebook. It takes quite a bit more time and actual involvement to get little Jimmy to the point where he can play outside without adult supervision and be safe.

      Overprotective parents give the ILLUSION that they are spending a lot of time on their kids, but I rarely see that actually being the case. What they are actually spending a lot of time on is worry. For example, they will go sit in front of the school for half an hour to pick up their kid because they don't feel the kid is safe walking home; that's not 30 minutes spend on the kid, that's 30 minutes wasted to placate their unreasonable worry. If someone spends 30 minutes walking with their child once to teach them the route, and then allows them to walk home; that would be 30 minutes spend on the child.

  16. Teens aren't that sheltered ... by MacTO · · Score: 2

    I work around plenty of teens and young adults who persistently access social media, simply because it is more interesting to them than the world around them.

    These teens are by no means locked out of the real world by over zealous parents. These teens are active in their schools and in many cases their community.

    While I can't speak for teens as a general population, the ones that I am exposed to are "addicted" to social media for reasons other than just their parents. (Parents may have some responsibility for not setting guidelines on social media use, but it isn't because they locked their kids away.)

    1. Re:Teens aren't that sheltered ... by R3d+M3rcury · · Score: 2

      When I was a kid, my sisters would talk on the phone with their friends. My parents would occasionally yell at them to get off the damn phone.

      I see it as a variation of the same thing as when I was a kid. The only difference is that in my day, you had one communication line into the house and parents made sure that the line was kept relatively open because if someone was on the phone, a person trying to call in would get a busy signal. Nowadays, you don't have the bandwidth limitations into the house that you once had. Between high-speed dedicated wired Internet and cellular networks, you don't really have the "excuse" that the line needs to be kept open in case someone wants to call. Thus, there really isn't a reason to not let kids talk to their friends as much as they want, except for other tasks that are necessary (e.g., homework, chores, etc.)

  17. Insight? Beyond My Understanding by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And they suck at riding horses, so they'll shamefully be foot soldiers when drafted into the military. And none of them have memorized a log table - how are they supposed to multiply big numbers, I ask you? And no one is apprenticed to a trade and sent off at 12 to work any more - how are they supposed to get job skills?

    Instead they're off dancing the waltz and exposing their ankles like they have no shame at all. This moral decay will be the end of society I tell you!

    I sense that you are mocking me, perhaps implying that I am too old and that like previous older generations, I am lamenting the loss of a skill that is not actually needed anymore. But even shameful ankle baring waltzes were highly social activities.

    But, I'm not talking about riding horses, or making your own bread. I'm talking about socializing with others of your own species. It's an absolutely essential skill. It's even important online, once you get past the cat picture and raging n00b stage. But the group of unsocialized teens that I am talking about have great difficulty communicating with each other or anyone else. They can't express or articulate an idea LOL cuz it's like IDK w/e. They are emotionally maladjusted or, at a minimum, they lack the ability to read emotion or empathize with others. This leads to not just issues relating to another individual, but also to far greater things when you consider that they people might one day be enacting laws based on their personal experience, or lack there of.

    So, help me out. Show me what a great communicator you are, despite your low userID suggesting that you are NOT a teen, by painting me a picture so that I understand what you are trying so glibly to deride me about. I'm not catching your drift.

    1. Re:Insight? Beyond My Understanding by lgw · · Score: 1

      I'm talking about socializing with others of your own species. ... They can't express or articulate an idea LOL cuz it's like IDK w/e. They are emotionally maladjusted or, at a minimum, they lack the ability to read emotion or empathize with others

      Like, that's like, grody to the max! Like, gag me with a spoon! Why if the youth of today could only sound like the youth of my day, that would be the bees knees!

      Sulking, angry teenagers, who's say to their parents only "just leave me alone!" - surely this is the first generation to encounter such wild, uncultured youth, whatever shall we do? (Complaints about "the youth of today are just not the men their fathers were" have been recorded for at least 2500 years, and likely from every society to leave written records.)

      Here's a hint: you can socialize with others while still not being able to smell them. Socializing is about communication. Whatever the medium, whatever the dialect, if people are communicating then people are socializing. And teenagers are going to act like teenagers, regardless.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    2. Re:Insight? Beyond My Understanding by NIK282000 · · Score: 1

      This leads to not just issues relating to another individual, but also to far greater things when you consider that they people might one day be enacting laws based on their personal experience, or lack there of.

      You's seen how laws are working out now right? It's not like it could get much worse. At least these people will be familiar with the subject matter.

      --
      Dear aunt, let's set so double the killer delete select all
  18. To blame by smittyoneeach · · Score: 1

    . . .is to self-empower, while assuaging guilt.

    --
    Get thee glass eyes, and, like a scurvy politician, seem to see things thou dost not.--King Lear
    1. Re:To blame by roc97007 · · Score: 2

      . . .is to self-empower, while assuaging guilt.

      Exactly. And if you want numerous examples, all you need do is get married.

      --
      Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
    2. Re:To blame by smittyoneeach · · Score: 1

      Coming up on the tenth anniversary next Summer.

      --
      Get thee glass eyes, and, like a scurvy politician, seem to see things thou dost not.--King Lear
    3. Re:To blame by roc97007 · · Score: 1

      Then, you know.

      "It's your fault the car is wrecked." "Um, how is that?" "If you had driven me to mom's house, I wouldn't have had to drive." "We've had this discussion. You shouldn't have gone at all. It's an ice storm." "Well, you should have driven me. It's your fault." Sigh.

      --
      Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
    4. Re:To blame by oreiasecaman · · Score: 1

      Marrying someone who dodges responsibility doesn't seem very smart to me

      --
      This is a UDP joke, I don't care if you get it or not...
    5. Re:To blame by roc97007 · · Score: 1

      Didn't know it at the time. You discover many hidden things after the ceremony.

      --
      Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
    6. Re:To blame by smittyoneeach · · Score: 1

      +1 gazillion or so.

      --
      Get thee glass eyes, and, like a scurvy politician, seem to see things thou dost not.--King Lear
    7. Re:To blame by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      Marrying someone who dodges responsibility doesn't seem very smart to me

      Didn't know it at the time.

      I suppose that's her fault, for concealing it, right?

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    8. Re:To blame by roc97007 · · Score: 1

      Marrying someone who dodges responsibility doesn't seem very smart to me

      Didn't know it at the time.

      I suppose that's her fault, for concealing it, right?

      It's not about fault. It's expected for people to conceal their negative qualities. Well, in my experience, women mostly. Men tend to belch and fart and seduce her roommate, just get it over with.

      --
      Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
  19. There's a man with his priorities straight. by hey! · · Score: 3, Funny

    Find someone to blame, then make sure they get *all* the blame.

    --
    Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    1. Re:There's a man with his priorities straight. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why blame the parents, let's blame the parents of the parents, after all they taught them how to parent. Or hey maybe we should blame the parents of the parents of the parents, after all we have to blame someone right?

  20. Trivial antedote by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    'If kids can't socialize, who should parents blame? Simple: They should blame themselves.

    My parents should not be blamed because everyone else is a sociopathic nutcase.

    Here's how I view socializing:

    • Return on investment: What benefit do I get for going to a social gathering, compared to me staying at home and playing/working on a computer?
    • Stress: Using a computer is less stressful than meeting people at a social gathering. Computers are highly predictable and can (eventually) be fixed, while people tend to be hard to get along with.
    • Acceptance:Computers completely accept you (as long as cost of becoming skynet is 9999999). People will instead call you a computer nerd or "teacher's pet" simply because you want to read a book.

    I've had enough years "socializing", developing Stockholm Syndrome (with being forced to attend school and told the diploma was doing me a favor), and dealing with Random crazies. My basic social needs are handled with my computer, and a software compiler.

    1. Re:Trivial antedote by ColdWetDog · · Score: 1

      You need a dog.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
  21. Crock of shit. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What a complete crock of fuckin horse shit.

  22. This is so fitting... by msobkow · · Score: 1

    You'd think this article was posted just so I could share this link...

    http://www.theonion.com/video/braindead-teen-only-capable-of-rolling-eyes-and-te,27225/

    --
    I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
  23. The "one or the other's fault" false dichotomy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If you raise an army of children who murnder people by hitting them over the head with iPads, it's almost entirely your fault. Each murder is only the child's fault to the extent that a child raised in a murder training camp can be said to have a conscience.

    On the other hand, if you raise a child under some hypothetical ideal condition and that child still grows up to be a murderer then it's 100% the child's fault.

    In reality, there are only a few situations on this planet where children are raised to kill (mostly in Africa) and we aren't even sure what to call an ideal environment.

    As usual, the truth is somewhere between the extremes. Society defines the behavior of the average person; but throughout history we have seen people who transcended their society's norms and followed what we might regard as a more universal morality.

    So. If your child is a media addict and it's harmful to them it's some percent your fault for letting them have it and some percent their fault for failing to transcend the situation.

  24. Social media are addictive by umafuckit · · Score: 1

    Teens aren't addicted to social media. They're addicted to each other," Boyd says. "They're not allowed to hang out the way you and I did, so they've moved it online."

    What a load of horse shit. Has this woman got eyes?

    Of course teens are allowed to hang out. I live in a medium sized town and Main Street is full of teenagers wondering about in groups... and playing with their smart phones at the same time. They play with them in the cinema too (fuckers), instead of watching the movie (which they went to with their friends). They play with them when they're out on dates. I see this in my town and I see it elsewhere too.

    No, the problem is social media. It's vacuous and addictive. My girlfriend wastes hours and hours on it; procrastinating when she should be getting on with finishing her thesis. She claims she needs social media to communicate with the her friends who are abroad. Now that's a valid use of social media, but does she really need to spend 3 hours a day on it?

    1. Re:Social media are addictive by TheloniousToady · · Score: 3, Funny

      You're right, social media are addictive. So it's time to log out of Slashdot and get back to spending time with your family and friends during the current Christmas-to-New-Year holiday season.

      And, yes, I'll do the same. Honest, I will. I can stop any time. Really, I can.

    2. Re:Social media are addictive by ShaunC · · Score: 1

      Of course teens are allowed to hang out. I live in a medium sized town and Main Street is full of teenagers wondering about in groups... and playing with their smart phones at the same time

      I live in a big metro area (Memphis, TN) and it doesn't seem to work that way here anymore, the author of TFA could be living in my neighborhood. The only time I ever see kids or teens outdoors is if the school bus has just dropped them off, and more often than not, there's a big line of cars waiting at the bus stop so that Precious Snowflake doesn't have to walk more than a block until their parents can usher them back home.

      When I was a kid growing up in the 80s, on the weekends or during summer break, I'd wake up, eat breakfast, and be out the door and on my bike by 9AM. Lots of sleepovers back then, where the same thing would happen at whichever friend's house I happened to be staying over at (playing Atari or NES till the wee hours). I often wouldn't get home until it was almost dark. I'd be outside all day, riding my bike with my friends, exploring new roads or new trails through the woods.

      We'd ride our bikes around into new subdivisions and pick up scrap lumber and nails and shit. We'd find a spot in the woods and start fires, because fire was cool. Someone would have brought a hatchet in their backpack and we'd chop down little trees and nail them around using the butt-end of the hatchet as a hammer, and make a treehouse. All of this on someone's property, someone who really didn't care as long as we weren't going to burn the woods down or something.

      The 4th of July used to suck. The 5th of July was fucking awesome! A bunch of 12 year olds rolling around a few square miles, stopping to pick up all the accidentally overlooked firecrackers laying on the streets that still had a fuse. Then we'd go back in the woods and shoot them off.

      Back then, nobody was worried that we'd be kidnapped, or molested, or cut up into pieces. And of course, none of that happened to any of us (and none of it happens, with any average of mention, today). We were kids out having fun. Try doing that today as a kid, and good fucking luck. Watch out for the Tasers.

      --
      Thanks to the War on Drugs, it's easier to buy meth than it is to buy cold medicine!
    3. Re:Social media are addictive by umafuckit · · Score: 2

      I live in a big metro area (Memphis, TN) and it doesn't seem to work that way here anymore, the author of TFA could be living in my neighborhood. The only time I ever see kids or teens outdoors is if the school bus has just dropped them off, and more often than not, there's a big line of cars waiting at the bus stop so that Precious Snowflake doesn't have to walk more than a block until their parents can usher them back home.

      Here too (LI) they drop off the kids with the bus that has the stupid flappy stop sign. But in the evenings it's common to see teens on Main St or at the mall. None of the fun stuff you mention happens here either, but it's not the case that teens don't socialise with each other. Of course they do.

      The "precious snowflake" syndrome is real but I think we need to consider why it's happening, rather than just call parents over-protective and consider that the explanation. Personally, I think this over-protectiveness is a mix of various factors; you can't explain it with one thing. In no particular order:

      - People are generally having fewer kids and having them later in life. It might seem crass to say it, but that makes a child more valuable nowadays. The extreme of this is in China where, although parents tend to be younger, they're mostly only allowed one kid. Plus, it HAS to be a boy or everyone is very upset. So you get a lot of very pampered, very spoilt, and very useless little boys in China. There are also a lot of girls that given away. My partner's Chinese, so I'm not pulling this out of my ass. We know people like this.

      - It's more common for both parents to have to work to make ends meet, since children are now more expensive due to higher costs for healthcare and education. So having a child is something most people have plan carefully. The flipside of that is that one parent may have to sacrifice a career to raise the kid. Again, making the child a bigger investment.

      - The media have a love of scare stories, particularly kiddie fiddlers. Although it's always been like this, it's probably worse now. Especially in the US, TV news has become reality TV (preferably with shock value) and so they ham up the "human stories" over the boring political ones. The atypical stories stand out and make people think it's more dangerous out there than it really is. People forget that most cases of child abuse are perpetrated by family members or close friends, not by strangers.

      - Kids themselves are more sedentary and go out less. TV, internet, video games, too much shool work, etc. Parents don't need to "stop" kids running wild: they stop themselves.

  25. Big media, Big sensationaism, and Big problems. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I distinctly remember the 1980s, its aftermath, and the "you can't go anywhere or do anything without an adult chaparone, because the pedos will get you and rape you to death like the kid on TV!" Phenomenon.

    Now that I am adult, I see its upgraded stranger danger hysteria 2.0 all over, and it makes life as an adult even more dfficult.

    Here, let me break this down for you.

    I am a single, white male, aged 32. I am purposefully leaving other details blank here.

    Here's the setup:

    It is a lovely spring day, and I decide to go to the local park. I bring binoculars to look at the birds, and perhaps a book to read. It's Saturday.

    A group of soccer moms arrives with kids in tow, to play soccer. It IS the public park afterall, and it DOES have big grassy areas just begging to be played on-- that *IS* what they are for afterall.

    Soccer mom "A" sees me using the binoculars to look at the baby orioles in the tree on the opposite side of the grassy field the kids are playing in. She turns to soccer mom "B", points me out, and the two proceed to act quite disgusted indeed, and quickly call an end to the soccer game because of "the pervert."

    Since when is bird watching being a pervert, especially when I was there BEFORE they arrived, for the stated purpose of said bird watching? It doesn't matter a god damn what I am actually doing there; that I am a single white male holding binoculars and looking over the field is all the evidence they feel they need to label me as one of the most disgusting things possible; a child predator. Gawd forbid that one of the kids kicks the ball my way, and they have to go and get it!

    As a result, it isn't JUST the kids that can't really go outside and do things either-- its adults too!
    Soccermoms A and B both FULLY EXPECT the park to literally be fucking devoid of people, and get paranoid when it isn't!

    The sickest and saddest part of it all? When measured against the growth of populations inside fixed geographic areas, the rate of child predator emergence has remaind almost the same statistically! The % of the population that are child predators is mostly unchanged! All that's different now are that cities have more people in them, and thus naturally, have more pervos per square mile-- and the unreasonable senses of danger that people like the soccer moms have concerning those people.

    The result is that people who really are just there to see the damned birds flitter about their nests in the spring, or who JUST want to enjoy the warming spring air after being cooped up all damned winter, either need to fit some rediculous mental picture of what those stupid cunts consider "normal and safe", or be consigned to either having to give up any hope of ever getting to use public prks in the manner in which they were intended, or forever be hounded by police showing up and aking just what it is you are doing in the damned park with a pair of binoculars in the springtime.

    God forbid if there's a fucking school around. Then you get taken in for questioning.

    The flipside, of course, is that the kids grow up thinking that anyone not fitting the precise sterotype of "safe" that their parents drum into them are immediately pervos, even when statistics flat out say they probably aren't, they grow up to be even more paranoid of "strangers" and the whole idea of going to the park in the first place becomes one of fear. Either that you will be fucking arrested for just being there, or that Pedobear is gonna get you or little timmy, and fuck your brains out in the bathroom and then dispose of the body in a roadside ditch somewhere.

    As a result, people don't go to the park, kids don't go to the park, NOBODY fucking uses the goddamn park, and the news media eats it all up like fucking candy.

    Catering to the paranoia will NOT solve the problem. What WILL, is for people to come to understand that their perceptions of other people can be, and likely are flat out wrong, 99% of the time. That other people, even "scary looking people" (f

    1. Re:Big media, Big sensationaism, and Big problems. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is a lovely spring day, and I decide to go to the local park. I bring binoculars to look at the birds, and perhaps a book to read. It's Saturday.

      There was a time in my life when I spent a lot of time alone in parks. And I did also feel the need for some sort of "accessory" to give me legitimacy - there were a few years where I would bring along a boomerang which would allow me to play catch with myself, for example. And I also used to feel restricted by societies fear of young single men.

      But, looking back, I see that I was also restricted by my own fear of pursuing more fulfilling activities. If you're a young single man with enough income to support yourself and no other family to take care of - then there may be other things you could be doing with your time that would be more fun than looking a birds with binoculars, so to speak. Now, you may say that hanging out in a park looking at little birds with a pair of binoculars is the greatest joy a man can experience. But I would suggest that you look deep into yourself and ask whether that's really what you believe or whether that's your fears and sense of inadequacy talking.

      Of course, if that's really you, then good luck and sympathy! But also recognize that a lot of people (like soccer moms) aren't going to understand why someone in your situation isn't doing something else more rewarding - for example, spending the afternoon in bed with a cute girl, planning a trip around the world, volunteering at a homeless shelter, etc.

  26. Wired is such a joke by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    How can I take the opinion of a magazine who's aim is,"Look at what some tech people did a few years ago, and what people are doing now?" It is like a weather channel that predicts the weather that happened yesterday and looks out the window to tell you what the weather is now. Then three out of 4 pages are advertisements. I can flip through one of those in 1 minute flat, and be saddened I wasted that much time on it.

  27. Re:Give him a pink slip by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    He may be unless in any and every single way unfortunately in life! :(

  28. Addicted? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Can anyone explain what it means to be addicted to social media? What are the withdrawal affects? ...actual social interaction? I mean, as far as I know, the human ego has no limits. To point to the new cutting-edge technology that exposes the ego in all it's awesomeness, doesn't seem fair to the social media. The ego has no limits, and anything that allows it to express itself will always be utilized as much as possible. There's no way around this. Yeah, yeah, we humans have a certain responsibility to keep this in check, but uhh, as far as I know, the only thing that seems to motivate people these days, unless they're poor, is to provide them some form of ego-trip. The whole "straight and narrow" concept went out the window long ago.

  29. Yeah, not buying it . . . by Kimomaru · · Score: 1

    So, basically the report says that over-restrictive parents are to blame for social media addiction? Don't think so. I've travelled quite a bit, the biggest complaint I've heard in the past decades is that parents were less involved in their kids lives than they were before WWII. Rebelling youth has been a chronic theme in Hollywood movies for the past 40 years. My favorite line in True Lies is when Tom Arnold explains that today's kids' parents are Axle Rose and Madonna and that parents can't compete with that kind of exposure. Social media is addictive because it's designed to be alluring and parents buy smartphones for their kids (pretty sure the kids aren't coming up with the coin themselves). Not sure how this report was researched.

  30. Congregating Alone? by _UnderTow_ · · Score: 1

    Congregating Alone? How's that done?

    1. Re:Congregating Alone? by TheGratefulNet · · Score: 1

      its very similar to the process of One ACK NAK'ing.

      its a zen thing...

      --

      --
      "It is now safe to switch off your computer."
  31. Popularity contest. by csumpi · · Score: 1

    While I don't disagree that things have changed since I was a kid, let's not ignore what social media is: a non-stop popularity contest. Who has the most "friends", who says the most outrageous things, who shows most skin.

    Everyone wants to be the most popular. When I was growing up, the popularity contest was limited to hanging out after school, going out, parties. With social media it's constant. Kids nowadays can contest for popularity every waking moment of their day. If the internet and smart phones existed in our days, it would've been the same stupidity.

    Also, it's not just kids. My mother in law is just as bad, maybe worse. Same with all the moms at my kids' schools. So let's not throw only the kids under the bus.

  32. True but not true by erroneus · · Score: 2

    First of all, as a formerly "awkward teen" and presently mostly well adjusted adult (what geek on here can claim otherwise?) I can say that socializing isn't as natural for some as it is for others. So a potential contributing factor is likely attributable to the epidemic proportions in the rate of ASD. (Among children now worse than 1:30!) If you want to point to social disorders, there's an obvious problem that doesn't require technology as a scapegoat.

    Next, there's the "everyone's doing it and if you don't let your children participate, you are HARMING their social interaction, not helping it" problem. That's right. I just said that if parents didn't allow their children to text and facebook, they would become awkward among their participatory peers. So while there are clear signs of dependency and even addiction, it is also the new media by which kids interact. And we can say the same thing for smoking cigarettes and marijuana as well. Social and peer factors are huge in teenage years. If parents taught their children to love and respect them, then their input and advice would be valued. So yes, there is a factor of parental blame to be spread around... but you might have to trace that back one or two more generations back before you find the source.

    And if you want to place blame on technology, let's talk to the people who CREATE and MARKET the technology. They are aiming these markets directly at children. It's just as outrageous as cigarette companies marketing their product to children isn't it? Eventually, it was curtailed. Then again, Disney markets sex to kids and no one has managed to say much or stop them. Perhaps it's just not as obvious. But the fact remains, for the areas we're talking about, it's pretty clear and obvious the means and methods involved are specifically marketed to the demographic under discussion. Aren't they to blame for exploiting this market of children?

    I'm not defending parents who buy their preteens frikken expensive phones and ipads and the like. I personally feel like it's outrageous. I didn't do it and I'm not going to do it. But I'm not going to tell parents they shouldn't do that as I'm sure there are things they could assert I'm doing wrong in their view as well. (I'm also pretty sure they wouldn't listen to the likes of me anyway.) So not going ot cast stones. I will, instead, try to lead by example as much as possible,

    So I guess part of the topic is the question of whether parents today are raising their kids wrong. I have to say, "unquestionably." But this problem started when most of us were kids and slightly before then. Anyone recall referring to the TV as "the babysitter"? Anyone who recalls hearing this probably knows exactly what I'm driving at. But the problem is increased exponentially as those children are now parents and if they didn't grow up with good parents, then how on earth are they expected to know how to raise children?! Am I wrong in observing that we have a generation of immature parents (not 'young' parents, but childish parents) trying to raise children without a clue as to how to do it?

    We have 2-3 generations of consumerist, debt-financing people acting like zombies all over the US and we're only NOW talking about what's wrong with kids? And we have the audacity to blame parents who were mostly raised by deficient parents? I say mostly, because a small handful of us actually did have some level of parenting and grandparenting in our lives and managed to absorb their wisdom and all that. And I did say grandparenting. What do we do with grandparents these days? Put'm in a home right? Not in my family. But what do I know -- I'm an outlier. None of my grandparents ever spent a day in a retirement home or community or any such facility. My mother, for example, acquired some land and set up two homes on it where one was inhabited by my grandmother. Imagine that? How could that have happened?

    Here's a clue-stick for anyone here who doesn't understand how it REALLY works.

    1. Re:True but not true by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ... Disney markets sex to kids ...

      Of course, those animation movies do have some adult concepts. I remember the bedroom scene in 'The road to El Dorado' (2000) where the femme fatale says "I'm not asking you to trust me". Before then, Disney avoided sex in its movies. I was surprised when 'Alley cats strike' (2000) has mum asking her 13 year-old daughter "Are you wearing a bra?". But cartoons about grown-ups aside, Disney and Nickelodeon love 11/12 year-old girls: They want to copy the adults but don't have to deal with bras, sex and drugs. It allows the TV show to be marketed to 9 year-old and 14 year-old girls at the same time.

    2. Re:True but not true by DeanCubed · · Score: 1

      The road to El Dorado was Dreamworks, not Disney.

      --
      Born to Play
  33. Go play outside by symbolset · · Score: 1

    "In the dirt? Ew."

    --
    Help stamp out iliturcy.
  34. Well... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    it's about time someone spoke out about this. All these parents whine that their kids are online all the time but not taking a second to realize it's because they won't let them do other things. It's very simple and I'm glad people are finally noticing how bad the media has been affecting their parenting...The media has gotten so bad that you'd actually be better off not paying attention to any of the news as it's all manipulated for the benefit of big business these days.

  35. Private sounds should stay there by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    quote>It's called private property

    As long as we're clear that your right to deliberately poison the acoustic spectrum ends at your property-line... ... And that using it without posting a notice might technically run afoul of some communities' rules about subliminal advertising.

    1. Re:Private sounds should stay there by CodeBuster · · Score: 1

      As long as we're clear that your right to deliberately poison the acoustic spectrum ends at your property-line

      The range on these is about 120 feet, or 140 feet without the baffle, so In a large free standing store with a parking lot or a private mall, it would not be difficult to keep the audible range within the property boundaries. As for the notice, I doubt that it would a problem. Notices are generally required only when the area is under surveillance and video or audio are being recorded and even then not all places require that.

  36. And we can blame the automobile, too by mc6809e · · Score: 1

    The streets used to be common areas where young and old people met, spoke out, argued, or just passed one another saying "good morning".

    Now they're dominated by cars.

  37. Where are they going to hang out? by Animats · · Score: 5, Interesting

    There are fewer places to hang out. Record stores and video rental stores are gone. Indoor malls are on the way out. Fast food places discourage hanging out. Starbucks are popular places to hang out, but just can't handle many people. Few nightclubs allow teens. Where to go?

    I'm in Silicon Valley, and I get to see a few views of this. Downtown Redwood City (a mostly lower middle class town), sort of by accident, ended up being a teen hangout zone. Years of attempts to "revitalize downtown" actually worked. A 20-screen theater, a lot of cheap restaurants (pizza, yogurt, burgers, etc.) and a refurbished live theater, often used by cover bands, finally brought people downtown. There's also a big plaza in front of the former courthouse, where free movies or bands are shown on warm nights. It took years to get going, there were empty storefronts for years, and it seemed to be a boondoggle project, but now it's happening. But it was never intended to enrich the lives of teenagers. It was intended to enrich retailers and property owners.

    There's another side to this. Being a teenager in a high-achieving area like Silicon Valley means being run ragged with school, homework, and semi-mandatory activities needed to build up the resume to get into a good college. As a horse owner, I see a lot of kids like that, and many are just overworked. I once asked a group of girls at the Stanford barn who were discussing grades what they considered an acceptable GPA. One answered, in a bleak voice, "4.5." These are kids who will be considered a failure if they don't get into a school at the Stanford/Harvard/Yale level. Those kids are on a treadmill from their first day of preschool.

    As an amusing note, one thing horse kids have going for them is good situational awareness. They're used to being aware of what's going on around them, because that's required on or around horses. (Riding in a busy ring with different people and horses doing different things without getting in each others way is a basic skill.) They all have smartphones, but aren't glued to them.

    1. Re:Where are they going to hang out? by Vitriol+Angst · · Score: 1

      I have to agree with the point that there are no places to hang out. But as a Dad who is not as energetic as he should be, and who has fallen off the gravy train -- I wish my kid could be on a bit of a treadmill.

      Kids are inside using social media because parents are too frightened to let them hang out -- but why should they be hanging out? Are they going to be happier learning to smoke cigarettes and shoplift by the convenience store until someone chases them off? Kids do well with down-time, but not too much down time.

      I'd love my kids to be going to piano lessons.

      So what is happening for MOST people? They are going through the motions. Kids are on XBox and Social media because parents have no time/money/energy. It's the new baby sitter. They might be better off "hanging out" -- but Parents are too frightened because they've been fed a diet of daily atrocities by the news media. 1 Crazy act per day in a population of 350 million is not representative, but emotionally, people feel they are living in Beirut.

      1 kid will be on the treadmill to be catapulted to stardom at Yale, and the other 99 will have tattoos and asking him if they want fries with that order the rest of their life. There is nothing stopping this trend that I can see in the near future. Be thankful if you can even rent the treadmill for a while.

      --
      >>"ad space available -- low rates!!!"
    2. Re:Where are they going to hang out? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I had this problem when I was a teen. Not so much the high expectations (I had to graduate and go to college), but school was an assembly line where there was no time to talk to others in school. After school, everyone just went home and stayed indoors.

  38. Bingo by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Pain is good. Pain teaches. I learned quite a bit when I got thrown out. Now instead of playing computer games I fly for a living, have raised kids to be better adjusted than me, and don't spend everything I make. The kids were annoyed that they couldn't have everything they want even though I'm "rich" but it's okay to be a little uncomfortable.

  39. always the parents by thetoadwarrior · · Score: 1

    Virtually all problems with children are the parent's fault and no one else. Parents just can't except it and blame everyone else.

  40. Wired Presents; by flyneye · · Score: 1

    Another speculative piece packed with journalistic fiber to help me process and evacuate the content.
    THis is not about addiction. No one has physical withdrawl symptoms. Any mental ones are part of a CHOICE.
    This is all about CHOICES.
    What happens when you are separated from connectivity? You decide to respond with anxious emotions.
    What do you mean you didnt decide? Do you have puppet strings? Someone decide for you to feel like that? Does someone else control your brain or do you?
    YOU DECIDED!
    There are plenty of more appropriate reactions to choose and a plethora of unlikely reactions, all of which you get to pick!
    You could shrug your shoulders and pick up a book, choosing indifference. You could choose anger and go run some blubber off or hit a speed bag for a while.
    You could meditate, cook, masturbate, bicycle, sleep, yard work,build something and choose to be happy instead.
    This article is a dodgy filler for a sinking publicatioin that fewer people care about every day. Just filler, nothing to see here, just move along...

    --
    *Repent!Quit Your Job!Slack Off!The World Ends Tomorrow and You May Die!
    1. Re: Wired Presents; by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do you fucking even know who danah boyd is? Hint - there is nothing remotely speculative about this piece; she does a shitton of research.

    2. Re: Wired Presents; by flyneye · · Score: 1

      And now Danah is wrong, probably on drugs or accepting payola.
      Who could care? Shoddy work.

      --
      *Repent!Quit Your Job!Slack Off!The World Ends Tomorrow and You May Die!
  41. My advise for parents by freax · · Score: 1

    Buy Lego Technics and Mindstorms, allow your kid to take apart old electronic devices when he or she is older. Learn it welding so that when your kid grows older he or she can put bigger things together. By the time your kid is that old, 3D printers will affordable. Let's make things (better).

  42. The problem is that it's a social phenomenon by swb · · Score: 1

    Which means that it involves more than just one set of parents and their children, it involves the social sphere of many parents and many children.

    If my child doesn't learn to eat well or brush their teeth, really, it's all about me as a parent because there's no other dynamic there.

    But with social components, it involves what other kids are doing, too, and while you can set limits on your own kids it influences their interactions with other kids and what the other kids are doing influences your kids in ways outside of your control.

    You may demand strict controls on social media, but if the majority of other kids have less strict limits, your kids may reap whatever benefits come from that but they may be outweighed by the negatives of being outsiders or less engaged the same way the other kids are.

    The idea that parents have just failed is kind of ludicrous. Most parents I know struggle with technology access in all forms, it's not like they ignore it or don't try to do things they think will be positive. And it's not like our experience as children or our parents' experience is specifically informative -- social media didn't exist at all, and technology didn't have that wide of a reach (through high school I was one of the few kids that even had a computer).

  43. Pfff by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Maybe you had to be "back by dark", but I had to check in every hour. Glad the entire 80's parenting style is assumed to be modeled after your personal experience.

  44. Mom & Dad don't socialize either by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Back in the 50's it was common for adults to gather together at someone's house for dinner. Almost no one does that now. So an important means of learning to socialize well is gone. In part this is probably because television has become so important to people that life itself is secondary.

    Conversation during and after a meal shared with others is the basis of human social organization. Eating in the car on the way to soccer or while watching Friends is not the same.

  45. My mom did not breast feed me. . . by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    . . . so I'm addicted to social media.

  46. addicted everywhere, bla bla bla by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    USA, land of the puritanical morons. Lets see, there was the literature addiction(1800's-1900's), playing outside addiction, socializing addiction, comic book addiction, music addiction, hanging at the mall addiction, movie addiction, TV addiction, video game addiction, internet addiction, sex addiction, and now social media addiction. Wow, USA people have an addiction problem and it has to be solved by shoving a bible down their throats because the only addiction people should have is Jesus addiction.

  47. citation please by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Shrug. quick goggling and deathriskratings.com says death by cancer is 3x more likely than by homicide for someone aged 5+20 years. (so 5-25).

    do you know anyone in that age, who was actually homicided? i know none in my hometown, or surrounding area.

    i know my best friend died of cancer, i know of others who have as well.

  48. Social Media IS Interaction by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Kids growing up in an increasingly online world are learning how to interact online. It's an important skill.

  49. All old people think the world is ending. by netsavior · · Score: 1

    As you get comfortable being an adult, inevitably all change makes the world seem like it is ending. But it keeps marching on.
    Facebook ruined the world, and so did video games, and fast food, and television, and rock and roll, and radio, and comic books, and dime-store novels, and cars, and bicycles, and Vaudeville, and Shakespeare, and classical Roman convenience foods like bread and soup, and probably every other invention adopted by the young or profane.

  50. Maybe not by roc97007 · · Score: 1
    --
    Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
  51. A decade, you say? by nitehawk214 · · Score: 1

    ...has spent a decade interviewing hundreds of teens about their online lives.

    So, most of your research is completely worthless now. Well done.

    Perhaps next you can give us a research paper about Myspace.

    --
    I'm a good cook. I'm a fantastic eater. - Steven Brust
  52. Uh.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Well...as most people did not have unlisted phone numbers, most likely she just looked them (or their parents) up in the phone book, or pulled them off the phone bill when it came through.

    Sometimes, kids attribute too much what their parents might have done versus what their parents actually did.

    1. Re:Uh.... by Midnight_Falcon · · Score: 1
      She didn't handle any of the phone bills, my Dad did (very traditional 1950s-esque couple), she wouldn't even open them. My Dad was opposed to my mom's snooping but not enough so to stand up/fight her over it. As far as technology goes, this woman was scared to use a microwave or a VCR and wouldn't use them.

      She didn't have the last names of many of the friends I had met outside of school and only had the first names noted in her book, so I doubt the phone book was used.

  53. If he is the addict then you are the dealer. by CrAlt · · Score: 1

    You are the one paying the ISP bill.
    You are the one paying the pricey smartphone bill.

    He is 19.He is an adult. Cancel that crap and see if he thinks his addiction is worth getting a job and paying for it himself. If nothing else the job will get him out of cyber space and in to the real world.

    --
    I have to return some videotapes...
  54. It serves a purpose to blame parents by ToddInSF · · Score: 1

    It distracts from the very real issues.

    People have become more insular because of the tech that was supposed to make interaction easier.

    Check out what goes on with teens, check out sites like chatroulette for instance. I'd argue that today's teens and twenty-somethings are more socially retarded than ever. And addicted to the high that relative anonymity and the dis-inhibition they experience on-line.

    Not to mention games where you go around shooting hookers in strip clubs. I mean, come on. There isn't going to be a consequence to all this ? Really ?

    Blaming parents is easy. Admitting that society has a long ways to go to catch up to tech, and making an honest effort to identify how and why is some work. And we all have a great deal of work to do. Kids shouldn't be as insulated from the real world and human interaction as they are now. It's not healthy for them or for society as a whole. And replacing real world interaction with something that is arguably psychotic like social networking is just crazy. And profitable. Let's put some of the blame where it belongs.

    Corporations are people that don't give a fuck about your kids mental health or social development.