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The Whole Story Behind Low AP CS Exam Stats
theodp writes "At first glance, the headline in The Salt Lake Tribune — Very Few Utah Girls, Minorities Take Computer Science AP Tests — appears to be pretty alarming. As does the headline No Girls, Blacks, or Hispanics Take AP Computer Science Exam in Some States over at Education Week. Not One Girl Took The AP Computer Science Test In Some States warns a Business Insider headline. And so on and so on and so on. So how could one quibble with tech-giant backed Code.org's decision to pay teachers a $250 "Female Student Bonus", or Google's declaration that 'the ultimate goal of CS First is to provide proven teaching materials, screencasts, and curricula for after-school programs that will ignite the interest and confidence of underrepresented minorities and girls in CS,' right? But the thing is, CollegeBoard AP CS exam records indicate that no Wyoming students at all took an AP CS exam (xls) in 2013, and only a total of 103 Utah students (xls) had reported scores. Let's not forget about the girls and underrepresented minorities, but since AP CS Exam Stats are being spun as a measure of CS education participation (pdf) and equity, let's not forget that pretty much everyone has been underrepresented if we look at the big AP CS picture. If only 29,555 AP CS scores were reported (xls) in 2013 for a HS population of about 16 million students, shouldn't the goal at this stage of the game really be CS education for all?"
Newspaper editors for writing catchy headlines,
researchers for writing research that both asks hard questions and lands funding, or
voters for permitting the government to underwrite such research in the first place?
I say blame the voters, who (a) are getting away with way too much these days, and (b) are unlikely to hit back.
Get thee glass eyes, and, like a scurvy politician, seem to see things thou dost not.--King Lear
Why is it alarming? People are different, genders are different. What's alarming is that every single job has to be 50-50% by law it seems. Oh except low-paying grunt jobs then it's OK that only men apply there.
How recent is the CS AP exam? I couldn't take CS classes at my high school - I graduated in '98 and high school level comp sci wasn't even a thing yet except at specialty schools. So, the exam itself is probably less than 15 years old - I suspect it's much newer than that.
AP exams also cost money to take, and they're only worth it if the college you're planning to attend accepts it in exchange for credit. How many colleges accept a passing AP exam score to opt out of Comp Sci 101?
Occasionally living proof of the Ballmer peak.
Almost no colleges offer credit for taking AP tests regardless of score so high schoolers have absolutely no reason whatsoever to take those tests. You can either study for just your real final exams that actually go into your grades or you can add in an even harder test that benefits you in no way. Hmm, tough one. Oh and they typically charge money to take the tests as well.
I took AP Computer Science AB exam in either 1995 or 1996. It was given in PASCAL. Though I did very well on it, by the time I was Freshman in college (in 1998), all it qualified me to do was take a 1-credit "C for PASCAL programmers" course. According to Wikipedia, some version of the AP CS exam has been given since 1984.
"World to End; Women, Minorities Hardest Hit"
This is an Advanced Placement exam, so we expect few people will take it. You only take this exam if:
- You are going into the field
- You went to a school that taught the advanced stuff
- You have an interest in that as a major
- You think you will pass it
- Your intended college will give you something for it
So when very few students take it, that isn't a big problem. I bet the next headline on this topic will be in a few years from now, when some organization has 50% of the population taking the exam and they want to either lower the passing criteria because so few students pass it, or change the test because everyone teaches to the test and colleges stop accepting it because it is a useless measure.
You mostly increase participation in this test by making sure that those students who meet the above criteria are aware of it. I know people who may have passed it, but never knew it was available or were intimidated by it, etc.
Almost no colleges offer credit for taking AP tests regardless of score so high schoolers have absolutely no reason whatsoever to take those tests.
That's not remotely true. Each college has their own policies on if/how they accept AP classes for college credit but many do give credit for AP courses. I coach about 20 high school students in a sport and about 2/3rds of them take at least some AP courses. (smart group of kids, average GPA is around 3.6) Quite a few colleges accept them if your score is high enough. Furthermore AP classes can be beneficial in getting certain scholarships even if they aren't accepted for credit.
Oh and they typically charge money to take the tests as well.
Many states and municipalities subsidize the cost of taking these exams. Even unsubsidized, the cost of the exams in 2013 was $89 which is hardly prohibitive for a lot of students. Nearly half a million students took the AP English exam in 2013.
That's the point. They don't care about "non-minority" males. PERIOD. Their only concern are the aforementioned "minority" groups.
The interesting thing is that in a field largely created by white males, the "new" white male beneficiaries of all who came before them now want to declare ownership of the field and decide who should and shouldn't have access to its rewards. Pretty grotesque, don'tcha think?
shouldn't the goal at this stage of the game really be CS education for all?
If you really mean Computer Science rather than general IT skills or computer literacy then no. True some subject should give a taster of what computer science involves, but most people need to understand computer science to do what they do with computers as much as they need to understand automotive mechanics to drive or fluid dynamics to run their washing machine.
I took the AP Computer Science exam in 1986. The class was very popular in my high school, but there wasn't room for a lot of students, so the class was offered during zero-hour, before most classes started. That meant to be in the class, you had to show up an hour early for school.
And interestingly, this was at Boise High School, and Idaho is one of the states cited in the original article. Apparently there were still only 50 students taking the exam last year. We had a third of that number back in 1986 from just my school, though I suspect we were the only school in the state to offer the class.
AP CS stats spin in Sunday's LA Times by a member of Code.org's Advisory Board: 'Unfortunately, only a narrow band of students - predominantly white and Asian males - is developing the necessary skills to step into these high-paying jobs in computer science. Latinos, African Americans and girls of all ethnic backgrounds are being left behind. In 2013, 29,555 students took the Advanced Placement computer science exam, but only 18% were female, 4% African American and 3% Mexican American...A great majority of today's computer scientists started down their career paths because of "preparatory privilege."'
Don't they realise that the IT industry runs on coffee!
I went to a large, fairly rural high school in a not-particularly-poor area. We had AP U.S. history and AP English. That's it.
Many of you (especially those of you who read and write the New York Times) come from adequately-funded suburban schools, and while you've watched The Wire and think you know what urban schools are like, you have no idea how weak the educational programs at rural high schools are.
But there's a flip side to this as well, individuals who may have no real interest in a particular field are being herded into them at the prodding of these social crusaders. How is it any better for society to tell a female or a minority, "We don't like the field you chose so choose again and make sure you choose the one WE want you to be in." What sort of bias does that represent? If a person chooses not to take a choice based on a perception of bias in that choice, *AT THE LEAST* they have had an opportunity to exercise a choice. In the social crusader's paradigm, that person at the worst HAS NO CHOICE and at best can make another choice and endure potential public shaming. There are a plethora of articles out there of women being shamed for making choices in their own interest that do not hew closely enough to preferences of the dominating social crusader class.
The AP exam rate for this course might not be a very good metric at all for measuring how many kids are going to go into CSci for their undergrad. When I did my undergrad I found that the AP credits I qualified for generally were only applied if they were for courses outside my major. Hence if you had a qualifying AP CSci score but majored in CSci it didn't count, while if you were majoring in something else it did.
What my high school classmates and I did with this information, then, was use it to justify taking AP tests in our non-major courses so we could get out of some of the LibEd coursework that would otherwise fill up our undergrad schedules when we could otherwise be taking higher-level math and science courses.
Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
No, really. It's like with math. If you are serious about either the CS or other science field you go and take those classes at a community college. The HS program is built around the low-common denominator. The rationalization to spend money on programs that will have a low ROI is not there. You are going to need a school district with a lot of kids and with a lot of kids interested in sciences in order to promote the better science programs. This is how you get the magnet schools where they pool all these like minded kids together as it's more effective, money wise, to have these programs in one location. Spreading them out over an entire school district would be costly and would ultimately be under utiltized. So, if you are really good at math and computer science, etc, the best option for everyone is to go to a commuity college and take those courses. Not only will you learn more, the equipment will probably be better, and, you can actually transfer these credits into a four-year program. I think a solution would be for a HS to focus on being a HS and for kids that have the talent refer them to a better equipped facility, at no additional cost to the parents.
Nerds are only openly hostile toward the world at large because it was openly hostile to us first.
I'm guessing you self identify as a "nerd". That's cool, I suppose I am one as well - I certainly was one in my youth. But I'm relatively old compared to most of the folks reading this so maybe I've gained a little insight. Hope it helps.
The world is NOT any more hostile to "nerds" than to anyone else. Almost everyone finds the world to be a harsh place because it is. But not because it is hostile but rather because it is indifferent. If you act hostile towards the world just because you perceive you are being treated unjustly then you are in all likelihood simply hurting yourself. Your value and how you will be treated is based on what you can do for other people. Hard to be of value to others if you are openly hostile towards them. You cannot control how the world treats you but you can control how you respond to it. Think of it this way, would you respond well to someone who thinks the world hates them and lashes out at everyone?
In reality a lot of "nerds" are pretty smart people who in the long run do rather well for themselves. Smarts in the adult world is a highly valued commodity. Develop some social skills to go along with those smarts and that's a recipe for success. Your value in the this world is based on what you can do for other people. Companies do not hire you because you are a nice guy or a hard worker. Women do not date you because of your high IQ. You have to bring more to be of value. You social status is based on what you can do for others and what assets you bring to the party. In school being smart mostly only benefits yourself. Among young people with undeveloped empathy and social skills, this can be a hard social situation at times but it doesn't mean "nerds" have it worse than anyone else. I assure you that it is no easier to be socially adept but academically challenged - different but no easier. Very few people have the whole package.
failures in tech can be placed on the PHB's not the techs doing the work.
A lack of women or minorities in a particular field is not a "problem" which needs to be fixed.
You should not be so certain of that. The question is NOT should more women be in CS (or engineering in general) but rather why do not more women enter in the first place? The reason we care about the answer is because of the subtext question which is "are we getting the best possible people into the field?". It is reasonable to ask if we are unintentionally (or intentionally) driving talented women away from the field who might otherwise make valuable contributions.
Fact: People who want to study CS will enroll in CS classes. People, regardless of race or gender, who have no interest in CS, will not enroll in CS classes or take CS tests.
That is true but it isn't really the question being asked. The question is WHY does CS tend to skew so heavily male? I've got an engineering degree and the only field that seems to skew more heavily male is the catholic priesthood. I had many classes where less than 5% of the students were women. As a professional it is quite uncommon for me to run into female engineers. Unlike activities requiring raw physical strength, engineering does not obviously confer any physiological advantage to men so it seems reasonable to ask why so few women enter the field? No one has a definitive answer so far but that merely indicates that the question is a difficult one, probably with a multi-factorial answer. Perhaps the answer is uninteresting and things are fine the way they are but we don't know that unless we ask the question and search for the answer.
The geek may be well on the way to be as marginalized by a minority and aging white population as the GOP.
Funny thing about "minorities"...
When a small percentage of the population has nothing particularly special to offer the rest of the population, we worry about them becoming marginalized and ignored, possibly even subject to prejudice.
When a small percentage of the population has something that everyone wants, something that most people don't have the capacity to get for themselves, and especially something that others can't take by force - We call them "elites", not "minorities".
Now, that said, I have no doubt that some day - probably within my lifetime, though hopefully not before I retire - computer programming will become a task best performed by computers themselves. At that point, this particular elite may well lose their status; until then, if you want your Twitter and your Facebook and your GMail and your YouTube and your MineCraft and your online porn, you will pay the IT elites pretty much whatever they ask for.
When I was in HS , HS girl were most NOT interested into physic, math, and similar (like CS), but were overrepresented in the rest. That despite all the professors trying to make more girl goes into those domain (not a new phenomena). 20 years later it is more of the same. Maybe, just maybe, the average girl/women are not that interrested into pure abstract logic in average ? Just like the average man is not interrested (in average) in teaching young schooler ?
I took a breast feeding class when we had my first child. I do not produce the milk in my family, however, and while there may be few ladies entering some technical fields in certain schools, I suspect that it's more to do with a BAD SCHOOL than with some barrier to women actually getting into a computer course.
Nobody tried to stop me from taking a course in breast feeding, though I didn't see a lot of dads in the class. Shocking.
>>"ad space available -- low rates!!!"
Oh boy, you don't have to take Calculus I-III since you got a 5 on the calc bc. You still need 4 math courses. They just start out at a higher level. Oh, by the way, you only need Calc I-III and difeq for this degree. Retake Calc I-III for an easy 3 classes.
If you don't have a desire to learn then I guess AP classes are a waste. But I was very happy every time I could test out of a basic class even though I received no credit just because it let me take a higher level class. I never considered it bad that I was still "forced" to take a database class that taught about B-trees and query optimization because I tested out of the one that taught what a SELECT clause is. I always considered that a pretty good deal.
-- All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. -- Edmund Burke
"shouldn't the goal at this stage of the game really be CS education for all?"
- shouldn't the goal at this stage of the game really be Art History education for all?
- shouldn't the goal at this stage of the game really be Macroeconomics education for all?
- shouldn't the goal at this stage of the game really be Diesel Mechanic education for all?"
-
-...
You never really know how close to the edge you can go until you fall off.
Most people don't understand the situation there. Least populated state in the Nation. Lots of oil there, but it ain't no Texas. I grew up there and my HS didn't even offer the SAT. We were lucky to be given the opportunity to take the ACT at all. Funding is thin, as it is for most school systems, and I believe that is the prime motivator.
The country bumpkin factor is high, and hicks don't have much need for dem confounded computers and such, the tractor ain't gonna drive itself! (You just wait Mr. Bumpkin, that tech is out there already.)
Keeping the population in state is a challenge, and I'm sure the powers that be aren't keen on giving them tools to empower them to follow a CS path that automatically jumps them out of state. UW and LCCC (Laramie County Community College, widely known as Last Chance Country College) aren't well known for their tech programs.
Tweet, tweet, all id10t's out of the gene pool, open swim is over.
Well, you're going to pay for four years of college regardless of what you do in high school. The college will just pad out your schedule with more required courses.
I doubt this is true for many schools that give credit for AP exams. I studied computer engineering. My AP exams got me credit for introductory programming, freshman chemistry, and four of my five humanities electives. That let me graduate a semester early. This is not to say that every AP exam you take will help you graduate earlier, even at colleges that award credit for AP exams. By the time I had to sign up for AP exams my senior year I already knew which college I would be attending. I looked and discovered that two of the exams for AP classes I was taking (English Literature and Statistics) would count for credit but would not help me fulfill any additional degree requirements for any of the majors I was considering at the time. So I saved a bit of money and time studying by skipping those exams.
This is asymmetric bullshit.
Where, for example, are all the calls for affirmative action to encourage more white men into nursing? (which is 91.4% filled by women, and health is a field that African Americans are more likely to work in than any other )?