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Neil Young's "Righteous" Pono Music Startup Raises $1 Million With Kickstarter

Hugh Pickens DOT Com writes "Jose Pagliery reports at CNN that the 68-year-old rock star unveiled his startup, Pono, at the South by Southwest festival in Austin, Texas raising $1.4 million in a single day. Young has developed a portable music player that stores high-resolution recordings and promises to deliver all the delicate details that get chopped out of modern-day formats, like MP3s and CDs. 'Pono' is Hawaiian for righteous. 'What righteous means to our founder Neil Young is honoring the artist's intention, and the soul of music. That's why he's been on a quest, for a few years now, to revive the magic that has been squeezed out of digital music.' With 128 GB of space, the PonoPlayer can carry about 3,200 tracks of high-resolution recordings while an MP3 player of the same size can hold maybe 10 times that many songs. Young says the MP3 files we're all listening to actually are pretty poor from an audio-quality standpoint and only contains about five percent of the audio from an original recording. But isn't FLAC already lossless? What makes Pono better?"

40 of 413 comments (clear)

  1. Title by bragr · · Score: 5, Funny

    Had to read that twice.

    1. Re:Title by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

      To be fair, a 68-year-old rock star making some righteous porno music may do quite well on kickstarter.

    2. Re:Title by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "Old man, take a look at my life..."

      Grew up with Neil Young and his music. Grew old with Neil and his music, wit, and weirdness.

      Neil Young Rocks.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    3. Re:Title by PolygamousRanchKid+ · · Score: 5, Funny

      Once again, Slashdot fails to deliver on its promise of "Nudes for Nerds" . . .

      --
      Schroedinger's Brexit: The UK is both in and out of the EU at the same time!
  2. LOL by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Sounds like snakeoil. So that means it'll be eaten up by the idiotic audiophile crowd.

    1. Re:LOL by georgeaperkins · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Whether it is snakeoil or not remains to be seen. However, the hardware spec featuring a well regarded ESS Sabre digital to analogue converter and seperate output stages for headphone and line-level loads looks well thought out. The prospect of an extensive high-resolution music catalogue to support the hardware capabilities shows some potential. Over hyped? Yes of course. Celebrity endorsed rip-off? Maybe not - I think this is genuinely a product spawned from an artist's vision. Final thought. Over $1M in 24 hrs, How bloody amazing is Kickstarter?

    2. Re:LOL by roca · · Score: 4, Informative

      No, we already know it's snake oil. See for example Monty's writeup:
      http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmo...

    3. Re:LOL by lgw · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Awesome link, thanks.

      Unfortunately, there is no point to distributing music in 24-bit/192kHz format. Its playback fidelity is slightly inferior to 16/44.1 or 16/48, and it takes up 6 times the space.

      There are a few real problems with the audio quality and 'experience' of digitally distributed music today. 24/192 solves none of them. While everyone fixates on 24/192 as a magic bullet, we're not going to see any actual improvement.

      First, the bad news

      In the past few weeks, I've had conversations with intelligent, scientifically minded individuals who believe in 24/192 downloads and want to know how anyone could possibly disagree. They asked good questions that deserve detailed answers.

      I was also interested in what motivated high-rate digital audio advocacy. Responses indicate that few people understand basic signal theory or the sampling theorem, which is hardly surprising. Misunderstandings of the mathematics, technology, and physiology arose in most of the conversations, often asserted by professionals who otherwise possessed significant audio expertise. Some even argued that the sampling theorem doesn't really explain how digital audio actually works

      If I had a nickel for every time an audiophile tried to explain to me that CDs can't capture "fast transients" or "20 kHz square waves", I could afford some genuine Snake Oil[tm]! Hint: the ear is mechanical, not magical, and the eardrum can only move so fast. Anything steeper than the rise rate of a 20 kHz sine wave just ain't happening.

      I just want a proper DAC without audiophile markup! My home amp has 7 of them (the chip is about $25 per, not breaking the bank), but each one is a 20 watt heater so I can't use it in my bedroom in the summer. I'd love to find a nice 2-channel DAC to use with a headphone amp for <$100, with HDMI and SPDIF in - anyone seen one?

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    4. Re:LOL by cheater512 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Define proper DAC? Just saying that makes me think you actually *do* want the audiophile markup.
      That Cirrus Logic 60c Audio DAC clearly isn't very good! It's too cheap!

      Reality: The DAC is *not* the limiting factor in audio. In fact there really aren't many limiting factors apart for Chinese crap.

    5. Re:LOL by sharknado · · Score: 5, Funny

      Maybe. But don't forget that the analog to digital conversion is itself a lossy process, so the only REAL way to listen to music is to carry around a record player in a briefcase. That's what all the real audio hipsters are doing.

    6. Re:LOL by flyingfsck · · Score: 3, Informative

      Yah, well, obviously you are not an electronic engineer and don't understand sampling, filtering and audio signals.

      --
      Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
    7. Re:LOL by Megol · · Score: 3, Insightful

      > If I had a nickel for every time an audiophile tried to explain...

      I used to share this view but eventually I concluded that "CD Quality" is not as good as it gets.

      This is the classic ludic fallacy that nerds are prone to - confusing theory with reality. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L...

      Nyquist's theorem has some assumptions that do[not] hold in the real world and which actually impact real world sound quality.

      1. It assumes there is no signal above the cutoff (1/2 the sampling rate). If this assumption is not met ie in the real world, then annoying 'aliases' appear in the sampled signal. To fix this, you have to have a low-pass filter. The low-pass filter, by its nature (physics) has to start cutting out signal well below the theoretical cut0off. So there is inevitable loss of signal well under the cutoff.

      Well not really if using digital filters but even with analog filters (which are worse BTW unlike some "audiophiles" think) this isn't a problem in practice if implemented competently. And recording studios are.

      Nyquist's always holds, thinking otherwise is just deluding oneself with magical thinking.

      2. It assumes perfect, 100% accurate samples and reconstruction. Instead we have imperfect 16 bit resolution samples and heuristic sampling and playback. Reconstructing a good playback signal is a bit of an art. The main impact is the loss of dynamic range. Engineers are forced to limit the dynamic range of the music to avoid excessive loss of accuracy and/or clipping.

      This is just more of the same delusion. Even a simple, inexpensive DAC in a reference design is capable of reproducing the signal with much higher precision than required given the destination - the very imperfect human ear.

      16 bit isn't imperfect given that it scales from the lowest detectable audio level to a level that would cause hearing loss.

      I am not a golden-ears person myself but I have friends who are, and gradually they have convinced me that there is a real loss from 16 bit 44kHz samples versys vinyl. I find mp3s unlistenable. Flac and also implicit higher sample rates on DVDs I find OK. I like the lack of noise on digital recordings (no tape hiss or surface noise). But I would happily replace my CDs / flac with higher resolution sound.

      Why? Do you like to waste bytes? Neither you nor your "golden eared" friends could ever detect any difference anyway.

      The problem is a generation brought up on mp3s expects more of the same.

      More of the same? Do you mean high quality sound?

  3. It IS FLAC by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    If the submitter/editor had bothered to do even the slighted research into "Pono", they'd have found that it's just a branded FLAC.

    1. Re:It IS FLAC by goombah99 · · Score: 5, Informative

      Pono music is an ecosystem to sell music in FLAC audio file format: 1) production of FLAC files from existing recordings, 2) a dedicated player, and 3) a web store to sell FLAC files.

      The problem with FLAC is how does one get FLAC? you could use your own encoder to record a CD in FLAC. But then you just have CD quality Why not reach back to the studio quality if you are going the FLAC route?. Cause you don't have access to that. But now you do-- the PONO ecosystem does that. And if you wanted to play that FLAC file, well your mp3 player might not play it and if it does it probably has a lot less memory than you would like. soe PONO players are chubbier in memory. And finally what if you are one of those people who likes to roll there own and prefers to just buy it pre recorded. Well agains the PONO ecosystem is there for you.

      --
      Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
    2. Re:It IS FLAC by Wdomburg · · Score: 5, Informative

      HDtracks, eClassical, Linn, Bandcamp. All carry 24-bit, high resolution audio.

      This expands the ecosystem; it doesn't create it.

    3. Re:It IS FLAC by Swampash · · Score: 3, Informative

      I've already got a bunch of devices that play lossless audio: my iPod, iPhone, and iPad.

    4. Re:It IS FLAC by ratnerstar · · Score: 3, Funny

      The problem with FLAC is how does one get FLAC?

      Shit, I get FLAC all the time for my music. Especially if I play it really loud.

      --
      Just because you sold your soul to the devil that needn't make you a teetotaler. --The Devil and Daniel Webster
    5. Re:It IS FLAC by amaurea · · Score: 4, Informative

      Apparently this link hasn't been posted enough times yet. It addresses both your first question (partially) and your second question (in huge detail).

      The video you're comparing to is being treated no better than audio. It's simply that human eyes are much better than human ears, so to give a comparable experience much higher bitrates are needed for video than audio.

  4. Reality check by jaffray · · Score: 5, Informative
    1. Re:Reality check by clockwise_music · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I can't believe that $2,000,000 has already been pledged. I assume by "audiophiles".

      Hey guys, 99% of mastering these days has been brickwalled. The recordings that you're buying and downloading before encoding, at the mastering stage has already had all "the nuances, the soft touches, and the ends on the echo" removed. You can't get that back. In fact, all this device will do is make these artifacts more obvious.

      Getting a 30 gazillion kbps FLAC file is utterly pointless when the same data can be represented in a 320kbs mp3 file.

      I can personally guarantee* (*worth nothing, not redeemable for anything) that sound studios will not start producing multiple mixes just for the audiophiles. It's just not going to happen. People do not care about this stuff and are happy with their iphones/androids, so the sound studios are not going to bother.

    2. Re:Reality check by Megane · · Score: 3, Informative

      tl;dr: the only useful purpose for 24/96 or 24/192 is extra bit depth for mastering and mixing. Otherwise the ultrasonic frequencies that you can't hear anyhow can actually interfere with each other and cause audible distortion.

      --
      #naabhaprzrag, #sverubfr-000, #agi-fcbafberq, negvpyr[pynff*=' negvpyr-ary-'] { qvfcynl: abar !vzcbegnag; }
    3. Re:Reality check by CRCulver · · Score: 3, Informative

      I can personally guarantee* (*worth nothing, not redeemable for anything) that sound studios will not start producing multiple mixes just for the audiophiles.

      They already have started, in fact. It's very common for the vinyl edition of an album to be less of a loudness wars catastrophe than the CD or MP3 digital downloads because vinyl customers tend to overlap with audiophiles. Two albums I can name off the top of my head where this was done are R.E.M.'s Accelerate and Rush's Clockwork Angels. After buying the CDs and hearing how they were brickwalled, I was happy to have supported the artist by buying at least something, but then I went to a torrent site, downloaded a vinyl rip and now play that exclusively on my home stereo.

    4. Re:Reality check by KozmoStevnNaut · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Linn and Naim (... very good hifi producers)

      More like "purveyors of bullshit". One of their shared key design parameters is "Pace, Rhythm and Timing" (abbreviated "PRaT") and they apply this to amplifiers, DACs, digital music storage etc. etc.

      If you think your amplifier influences the "Pace, Rhythm and Timing" of your music, you need a straightjacket.

      --
      Eat the rich.
    5. Re:Reality check by KozmoStevnNaut · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Then we had CD's quality is better then tape, but not quite up to the record.

      That is bullshit on a huge scale.

      The CD can do everything that even a pristine record can do, and more. You can perfectly replicate the sound of a record using a CD, but you cannot perfectly replicate the sound of CD using a record. That makes CD the clearly superior format. CDs are cheaper to produce, more portable, do not degrade with repeated playback, can replicate any frequency from 0-22kHz with instant impulse response and more than enough dynamic range to reach from 0dB to the threshold of pain on the same track.

      Records have only one advantage, and that is more space for artwork on the cover. On every single parameter apart from that, the record is an inferior and useless format. Just let it die, already.

      --
      Eat the rich.
  5. Too pricey, odd shape? by DigitAl56K · · Score: 3

    I read the other day that these units are going to go for about $400 a piece. While I myself am an audiophile at heart, I just can't see the use cases for this that makes it worth the money.

    For a start, when I'm on the go, unless I'm in a plane (which I'm not very often), I can't use noise-cancelling headphones or I have little situational awareness, and the benefit of this higher fidelity is lost. If I'm sitting at my computer, I'd rather access my library through the computer via a nicer interface and still be able to hear the audio for videos I play etc., and I don't have to worry about plugging in or running down batteries.

    So I'm left wondering where are the occasions when I'd really benefit from the higher quality on the go, how frequently do they arise, and is it worth the money for more pristine sound in just those cases?

    Also, the damn thing is triangular. Where am I supposed to be putting this? It's not going in a pocket alongside my smartphone...

    For me, it's nice that someone is trying to produce a product with a higher audio quality, but I don't see myself buying one.

    1. Re:Too pricey, odd shape? by ColdWetDog · · Score: 4, Funny

      Also, the damn thing is triangular.

      Actually, no. The Pono's shape would be properly described as prismatic .

      Great. A geometry Nazi.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
  6. Re:Five percent? by mythosaz · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Yup.

    The Loudness Wars rendered most of this moot. :(

  7. So much marketing, so little fact by PhrostyMcByte · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Caveat: self-identifying audiophile here, happy to admit I've spent way too much money for very little gain.

    What's the output voltage and impedance? Crosstalk? Noise? THD? Dynamic range? If I plug to charge via USB while I'm playing it, will it isolate the noisy power line? You're trying to sell something "audiophile" without mentioning any of this? Really?

    He makes a big deal about 192kHz audio. If you're targeting human ears, this is just a waste of space. I'd say the perfect format would be 48kHz/24bit. 48kHz to have plenty of room for a nice frequency cutoff, and 24-bit for music with a high dynamic range, like film scores and orchestral.

    How about some features anyone can enjoy, like support for ReplayGain and gapless playback? Maybe make your store highlight music with a high dynamic range instead of offering a 24-bit copy of something with 8 bits of range and frequencies we can't hear?

    I would absolutely love to have a compact, objectively transparent player that I can bring with me to the office or anywhere else. I just can't help feeling this won't be it. Too jaded?

  8. Re:Doesn't solve the big problem by StripedCow · · Score: 3, Interesting

    No, the real problem is that all the tracks are pre-mixed into a single stereo track, leaving us customers with only a single volume knob to turn.

    --
    If Pandora's box is destined to be opened, *I* want to be the one to open it.
  9. Re:you've got to be kidding me by ChunderDownunder · · Score: 4, Informative

    'Polynesian' is language family spoken in various Pacific countries such as New Zealand (Maori), USA (Hawaiian) and Chile(Rapa Nui).

  10. Coastline Paradox & Audiophilia by Bob9113 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Young says the MP3 files we're all listening to actually are pretty poor from an audio-quality standpoint and only contains about five percent of the audio from an original recording.

    Obviously Young doesn't understand The Coastline Paradox. At a sufficiently high resolution of measurement, a wave contains infinite information. Any finitely sized digital recording actually contains 0.00000% of the information in the original signal.

    Of course, that's only if you include all the information that our brains are incapable of distinguishing. The interpretation of waves by our brains is an inherently fuzzy process, and beyond a certain resolution there is no perceptible difference between a flawed and a perfect recording (even if you had the equipment and sound room to produce a sufficiently high quality set of vibrations in the air to reliably communicate that tiny difference to your tympanic membrane (you don't)).

    Or, more succinctly: Extreme audiophilia is bunk.

  11. Re:Monster Cable Pono Edition by AK+Marc · · Score: 3, Funny

    Neil Young sellling Diamond dust? Can't we just call him Neil Diamond instead?

  12. More about storage by canadiannomad · · Score: 3, Insightful

    My biggest complaint about the mp3 music player industry is: Why are they still over selling 1/2/4GB devices!?!?!?!?!?
    Honestly, I can't even imagine why Apple, Sony, Philips and other large brands that I find in my average tech store even bother to have/sell, but actively promote these minuscule devices. At least 128GB approaches a reasonable size for today's music collections.
    To me it is similar to Linus' rant about laptop monitors.

    --
    Hmm, the humour and sarcasm seem to have been be lost on you.
  13. Re:you've got to be kidding me by ChunderDownunder · · Score: 3, Informative

    Didn't I write "language family"?

  14. Something tells me.... by Dareth · · Score: 3, Funny

    Something tells me....he is going to catch a ton of flac over this.

    --

    I only look human.
    My mother is a halfling and my dad is an ogre, so that makes me an Ogreling
  15. Re:Well by Mr.+Slippery · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Have you ever tried to raise capital in a socialist system? Capitalism makes capital common and available.

    Capitalism keeps capital in the hands of the capitalist class, that's it's whole reason for being. The idea behind socialism is to make capital -- not to be confused with money, but the actual "means of production", and so not something that has to be "raised" -- available to workers without having to get some parasitic aristocrats involved. Unfortunately, Marx was not an empiricist and his version of socialism lends itself to abuse by authoritarians; but even his fscked-up version took an agrarian nation barely out of feudalism (Russia still had legal serfdom until 1861!) and turned it into a space-faring nuclear superpower -- and that in spite of bearing the brunt of the cost of stopping the Nazis. Stalin sucked and Marxism has serious flaws, but the whole "OMG socialism failed!!1!" meme doesn't hold up to serious examination.

    --
    Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
    You cannot wash away blood with blood
  16. Double blind tests? by flyingfsck · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I challenge any 68 year old rocker to a double blind test to hear the difference between MP3 and Pono.

    --
    Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
    1. Re: Double blind tests? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      MP3 is not inherently bad. A lot of early MP3s are crap. Encoded in CBR at 128 kbps or less. Even using VBR at the same bitrate yields a far superior sound and typically slightly smaller size. Sadly, I didn't discover that in college until I'd nearly ripped all of my CDs (quite a labor intensive process back then). Most music, humans won't notice a difference between 44khz and 48khz sampling, either. To notice the differences, you need "noisy" music. Music that has a large variance of frequency ranges and volumes that changes often. That is where you really see improvements from increased sampling and bitrates. Much how you see far less pixelation and artifacting in an action movie comparing a bluray to a dvd.

    2. Re: Double blind tests? by Gunboat_Diplomat · · Score: 5, Informative

      Do any of you guys have ears? If you have heard live music vs an mp3, the loss of audio info is very obvious. Many mp3 files--especially rock music--are horrible. Neil is not in this to make money. He's got plenty. He's passionate about music.

      A number of double blind tests show that almost no one are able to hear the difference between properly encoded 320kbps and original, including those that are absolutely convinced that they do. The mind is a beautiful thing.

      The main problem with Neil is that he is mixing up different issues. Is overly dynamically compressed music a real problem? Absolutely. But that is the mixing and mastering, not related to format. Are there bad low-bitrate MP3 encodings out there? Absolutely, but with higher bitrate and better encoders being the norm it is a problem going away on its own. Are there any reasons at all to go lossless? there is one; if you want to keep the ability to re-compress to different formats/bitrate, then you can avoid compounding of compression artefacts across multiple generations (sort of like how you shouldn't jpeg a jpeg).

      And don't get me started on the various snake oil attempts to describe why higher bitrate and higher samplingrates are needed, actually, just read this: http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmo...

    3. Re: Double blind tests? by Joce640k · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Do any of you guys have ears?

      128kbs MP3 (which used to be the "standard") is crap, yes.

      320kbs MP3? I doubt many people can hear the difference.

      After I got tired of clicking through the links to "What makes pono better" I eventually googled it on Wikipedia and found out it's FLAC. Aren't we already using FLAC? I know I am.

      Bottom line: He's comparing 128kbs MP3 to FLAC. Nothing to see here, keep moving...

      If you have heard live music vs an mp3, the loss of audio info is very obvious.

      Who's talking about live music? Of course live music is different.

      --
      No sig today...