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Neil Young's "Righteous" Pono Music Startup Raises $1 Million With Kickstarter
Hugh Pickens DOT Com writes "Jose Pagliery reports at CNN that the 68-year-old rock star unveiled his startup, Pono, at the South by Southwest festival in Austin, Texas raising $1.4 million in a single day. Young has developed a portable music player that stores high-resolution recordings and promises to deliver all the delicate details that get chopped out of modern-day formats, like MP3s and CDs. 'Pono' is Hawaiian for righteous. 'What righteous means to our founder Neil Young is honoring the artist's intention, and the soul of music. That's why he's been on a quest, for a few years now, to revive the magic that has been squeezed out of digital music.' With 128 GB of space, the PonoPlayer can carry about 3,200 tracks of high-resolution recordings while an MP3 player of the same size can hold maybe 10 times that many songs. Young says the MP3 files we're all listening to actually are pretty poor from an audio-quality standpoint and only contains about five percent of the audio from an original recording. But isn't FLAC already lossless? What makes Pono better?"
Had to read that twice.
I spent five minutes trying to figure out if Slashdot once again misspelled something, i.e. "porno."
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Sounds like snakeoil. So that means it'll be eaten up by the idiotic audiophile crowd.
If the submitter/editor had bothered to do even the slighted research into "Pono", they'd have found that it's just a branded FLAC.
The big problem with music on MP3s and CDs isn't the sample rate, or even the bits used to sample. To sell CDs and MP3s the recording is made as loud as possible and this causes distortion in the sample values. There's no point having 16-bits or 24-bits if the recording doesn't make good use of the full range of values.
Who ordered that?
Monty (of Ogg and Vorbis fame) on 24/192 Music Downloads, and why they make no sense.
Oh audiophiles, please never change! It is so easy to laugh at your pseudoscience!
I read the other day that these units are going to go for about $400 a piece. While I myself am an audiophile at heart, I just can't see the use cases for this that makes it worth the money.
For a start, when I'm on the go, unless I'm in a plane (which I'm not very often), I can't use noise-cancelling headphones or I have little situational awareness, and the benefit of this higher fidelity is lost. If I'm sitting at my computer, I'd rather access my library through the computer via a nicer interface and still be able to hear the audio for videos I play etc., and I don't have to worry about plugging in or running down batteries.
So I'm left wondering where are the occasions when I'd really benefit from the higher quality on the go, how frequently do they arise, and is it worth the money for more pristine sound in just those cases?
Also, the damn thing is triangular. Where am I supposed to be putting this? It's not going in a pocket alongside my smartphone...
For me, it's nice that someone is trying to produce a product with a higher audio quality, but I don't see myself buying one.
Yup.
The Loudness Wars rendered most of this moot. :(
DRM, obviously.
With diamond dust (*May or may not actually contain dust from real diamonds) glazed gold connectors.
I only look human.
My mother is a halfling and my dad is an ogre, so that makes me an Ogreling
Have you ever tried to raise capital in a socialist system? Capitalism makes capital common and available. One of the best things about it.
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I read the article a few days ago, and thought lookout mama there's a white boat comin' up the river at Spotify. If Neil doesn't get in front and interfere, the bandwidth can support his increased quality, and the price point is cool.
Gently reply
Caveat: self-identifying audiophile here, happy to admit I've spent way too much money for very little gain.
What's the output voltage and impedance? Crosstalk? Noise? THD? Dynamic range? If I plug to charge via USB while I'm playing it, will it isolate the noisy power line? You're trying to sell something "audiophile" without mentioning any of this? Really?
He makes a big deal about 192kHz audio. If you're targeting human ears, this is just a waste of space. I'd say the perfect format would be 48kHz/24bit. 48kHz to have plenty of room for a nice frequency cutoff, and 24-bit for music with a high dynamic range, like film scores and orchestral.
How about some features anyone can enjoy, like support for ReplayGain and gapless playback? Maybe make your store highlight music with a high dynamic range instead of offering a 24-bit copy of something with 8 bits of range and frequencies we can't hear?
I would absolutely love to have a compact, objectively transparent player that I can bring with me to the office or anywhere else. I just can't help feeling this won't be it. Too jaded?
Yup.
The Loudness Wars rendered most of this moot. :(
The lack of dynamic range in "remastered" music was the first thing I thought of. Never mind style, 80s music just sounds better. If there was a place to get current FLAC format music that wasn't ruined as demonstrated by the parent above, I'd be happy to pay a bit more for it. Anyone know of such a thing?
except for that last 1/10% who think they can hear a difference, or the 1/10000% who actually can.
Honestly, it's music we don't need. This is like arguing over whether x264 is sufficient to carry all of the visual information in a motion picture. It's not even close - the best BluRay throws close to 99.9% of the information away, but Neal's reckoning. Thing is, you can't tell. You can't tell in a good set up in a controlled environment, much less in a room where the visual/acoustic treatments aren't designed solely for the experience.
Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
'Polynesian' is language family spoken in various Pacific countries such as New Zealand (Maori), USA (Hawaiian) and Chile(Rapa Nui).
Young says the MP3 files we're all listening to actually are pretty poor from an audio-quality standpoint and only contains about five percent of the audio from an original recording.
Obviously Young doesn't understand The Coastline Paradox. At a sufficiently high resolution of measurement, a wave contains infinite information. Any finitely sized digital recording actually contains 0.00000% of the information in the original signal.
Of course, that's only if you include all the information that our brains are incapable of distinguishing. The interpretation of waves by our brains is an inherently fuzzy process, and beyond a certain resolution there is no perceptible difference between a flawed and a perfect recording (even if you had the equipment and sound room to produce a sufficiently high quality set of vibrations in the air to reliably communicate that tiny difference to your tympanic membrane (you don't)).
Or, more succinctly: Extreme audiophilia is bunk.
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Am not seeing much discussion of the hardware itself...? Seems like it's not a terribly great device.. A 1/8" 'headphone' output - does that make sense given all the fuss over sound quality? Is the 1/8" jack the golden standard? What about the 8hr battery life? Would like to see more discussion around this..
Now only is 192 kHz/24 bit silly in general, it's even more silly for a portable music player, that's usually used in places with a higher background noise than your living room. Listening to music above 100 dB SPL in a cafe with noise at 50 dB SPL means you only need an SNR of 50 dB, just slightly more than 8 bits.
Opus: the Swiss army knife of audio codec
at the very least I bet Niel Young understands what you mean by loudness wars and remastered but not really. I think he's on our side here.
a Monster cable?
Yo brah don bother come my islands, you to ignorant, the ohana don take kindly to ignorance.
We talk story in pidgin and Hawaiian here in addition to English, Japanese, Mandarin, Tagalog, Thai, Vietnamese and many others.
Polynesian isn't any language I've ever heard of.
My biggest complaint about the mp3 music player industry is: Why are they still over selling 1/2/4GB devices!?!?!?!?!?
Honestly, I can't even imagine why Apple, Sony, Philips and other large brands that I find in my average tech store even bother to have/sell, but actively promote these minuscule devices. At least 128GB approaches a reasonable size for today's music collections.
To me it is similar to Linus' rant about laptop monitors.
Hmm, the humour and sarcasm seem to have been be lost on you.
A southern man don't need him around anyhow.
Didn't I write "language family"?
And the dumb will deny that anyone can understand the sampling theorem and the anatomy of the human ear because they can't.
I pity the dumb.
I like the loudness wars. When watching TV (loudness war-victims) I can set the volume and watch a show. The dialogue is understandable and the expolsions are loud. When I watch a movie (non-broadcast) the loudness wars don't seem to have touched it. If I put the volume up to where I can hear the dialogue, then when the explosions start, it's loud enough that I'm worried the neighbors will call the cops on me. So I have to sit there with the volume in my hands, turning up the quiet parts, and turning down the loud parts. If the loudness wars had touched movies, then it'd be easier to casually consume recorded movies. Though it would be different from the theater experience.
Learn to love Alaska
Something tells me....he is going to catch a ton of flac over this.
I only look human.
My mother is a halfling and my dad is an ogre, so that makes me an Ogreling
This could be a boon for biologists and other researchers, in that it could capture the ultrasonic sounds animals make. The currently available equipment is very expensive.
an audio format my dog can enjoy
There are TV's and Amps that will do that adjustment for you (check for a button marked "loudness"). No need to unreversably process the input signal when your equipment could do it for you.
'Pono' in Hawaiian means more then simply righteous. Naming a music player 'pono' is a disservice to the word. Maybe Neil should have thought of that before hand, instead this is just another example of cultural appropriation. Sad.
Capitalism keeps capital in the hands of the capitalist class, that's it's whole reason for being. The idea behind socialism is to make capital -- not to be confused with money, but the actual "means of production", and so not something that has to be "raised" -- available to workers without having to get some parasitic aristocrats involved. Unfortunately, Marx was not an empiricist and his version of socialism lends itself to abuse by authoritarians; but even his fscked-up version took an agrarian nation barely out of feudalism (Russia still had legal serfdom until 1861!) and turned it into a space-faring nuclear superpower -- and that in spite of bearing the brunt of the cost of stopping the Nazis. Stalin sucked and Marxism has serious flaws, but the whole "OMG socialism failed!!1!" meme doesn't hold up to serious examination.
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As an audio technician, I recommend a compressor with a fast attack and very slow release. Basically, when the volume goes above a certain threshold, any additional volume rise will be cut by a set ratio. Ideally, you'd set the threshold to the dialogue volume or just below, and set the ratio as low as you're comfortable with - more compression means flatter sound, but you'll be dulling the punch of music and emotion as well as the perceived loudness.
It's a bit pricey (and ridiculous) to start putting pro audio gear into your TV system, but there's something to be said for maintaining that perfect comfortable volume automatically.
You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
Now I actively dislike him. This kind of audiophoolery is the height of shysterism.
The same company that is making pono also makes these myrtle blocks. yes, that's right they sell very expensive pieces of wood for you to put your cables on. Taking advantages of the easily suggestible and gullible fools known as "audiophiles" is a real unethical move. Maybe the old "a fool and his money" is true but it's still just shady.
Yep. Just like "wiki" is Hawaiian for "wiki."
And in Maori (another polynesian language) Wiki is a girls name. (short for Wikitoria)
I run it all through a receiver, so I'll take a look at what my options are for it. It's just one of those things that it seems funny that the "lower-quality" report is "better" (subjectively) to most people. And only the philes think otherwise, and do so with great enthusiasm.
Learn to love Alaska
Can you use a compressor in my setup? Player (TV-DVR, DVD, Blu-Ray), HDMI to receiver, receiver to speakers. There's no place where the audio is analog in the chain, other than after the last amplification on the way to the speakers. I'd expect it would prefer line-level, as opposed to post-amped, but maybe they do work better after amps. I read the specs on the one you linked to, and didn't see anything that seemed to answer. And it's only 2-channel. So what do I do with 8 speakers?
Learn to love Alaska
I challenge any 68 year old rocker to a double blind test to hear the difference between MP3 and Pono.
Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
I'm so confused!
XML is a known as a key material required to create SMD: Software of Mass Destruction
Ditch the crappy receiver.
More seriously, it is a rather distressing problem that there's all too often this one magic self-contained box that is expected to do everything perfectly with no ability to modify anything. Much like the adoption of DRM, it's a problem that no amount of edge-case (read: my) whining has had any effect on. It'd be nicer if the receiver had a low-level output (which some do, usually in the form of RCA jacks).
The proper (and again, I fully realize this goes well into the "pricey and ridiculous" territory) way is to turn down the receiver's amp pretty low, then use an 8-channel DI box to cut down the power your receiver is pushing out. Then you're into the signal level used for decent audio gear, and your options are far more flexible. You could add 4 of the aforementioned compressor units to compress all 8 channels, or you could just compress some of the channels for the preferred effect. You could leave your distant speakers uncompressed to preserve some of the punch without worrying about having the signal be too loud from nearby speakers.
Working entirely at low level, you have other options, too. If you have a big home theater, where the distance between main speakers (subwoofers don't really count) varies by more than about 5 feet, you might benefit from a properly-configured delay unit, so the sound arrives at your ears at the proper time, according to its spacial location in the source. If you prefer to take the sound fully into your own hands, you could add 8 channels of equalizers to set the frequency curves to match your room and listening preference. With a patch panel, mixer, and a multitrack recorder, you could also hook up your band for an in-house recording session, because if you're actually considering this level of production for a home system, you very likely have more money than sense.
Anyway, since you had to waste the earlier amplification to get down to that usable signal, you'll need 8 channels of amplification again to take your fully-customized signal and run it up to audible levels.
Life is easier and cheaper with just a 2-channel stereo system.
You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
Why not use your fame to start a proper distribution website and a business that treats the customer as a golden egg and not a thief. Yah yah iTunes now fuck off and give me something I'm not tired to and just want to pay and download a full corss platform DRM free file. Charge me $.25 per track or say $4-5 per album.
Oh oh and how about getting music by musicians that dont feel they are entitled to make $1000000's for eternity because they think their product is some magic thing that is above all priceless in perpetuity. Better yet how about license that say that after 5 years the album is release to the public royalty free.
by TheSpoom (715771) Uncaring Linux user here. I have nothing to add to this but please continue. *munches popcorn*
Working entirely at low level, you have other options, too. If you have a big home theater, where the distance between main speakers (subwoofers don't really count) varies by more than about 5 feet, you might benefit from a properly-configured delay unit, so the sound arrives at your ears at the proper time, according to its spacial location in the source.
My "crappy receiver" does that already. Perhaps you should look at what a $600 receiver gets you these days.
Learn to love Alaska
Ah, but you're talking about movies. I sincerely want to listen to my Disturbed and later Metallica at a high volume for more than a song or two. Any more than 10 minutes tops and it's like my ears start hurting 'cause the music degenerates into noise. Good phrase I just ran across to describe this is "fatiguing distortion". Put on the old stuff that that doesn't happen.
In the TV world, I think you want to turn on TruVolume, Dynamic volume or Dolby volume. If you have them, these features on your TV will even out the sound in the way you describe.
Yes. I don't just think that; the science, physical objective testing and blind subjective testing all bear that out. Take the experience of sitting at the console out of the mix and play you a purely analog version of that same recording vs AAC/256 and 99% of people will not know any difference. The remaining 1% will be split 50/50 as to which recording sounds better.
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1. It's FLAC. nothing special.
2. If you're listening to it on $100 computer speakers, you might as well listen to 320kbps MP3s because you're not going to hear the difference on those crap speakers
. 3. Where do you listen to music? At your computer? Are you using the above mentioned speakers? Fail. If its charging via USB how is Pono going to isolate the noise in the USB Bus? If you are listening in your car - fuck off. You are NOT going to hear the difference over he road noise and attention distractions breaking your focus. AND I doubt the speakers or the amps in you car are much better than the junk attached to your computer.
4. Even if you have good speakers - what amp are you using? Your Preamp? Or is it going through some silver faced 1970s Pioneer reciever you got at Hipster Haven for $50?
What this is is very simple: It's a cranky old man who misses the old days of Rock and Roll business model, where music was impressed in spiraled disks - first vinyl, then polycarbonate. Those days are gone, so he's trying to open up some scarcity to create profit. He will fail.
Shoes for Industry. Shoes for the Dead.
Yes, you can have FLAC files of songs, but the benefit of this is FLAC rips from the MASTERS.
I am surprised the studios will allow this as it means you'd never need to buy another version
of the music again, you would have a 99.9% as good version of the master.
FLAC rips from vinyl come close, but FLAC rips from the analog master tape? It's worth rebuying
all the music again as you will have without a doubt the best version possible short of a time
machine to the studio during recording time.
I wish they'd make something easier to hold or put in your pocket, the triangle shape of PonoPlayer is horrible. I don't like the buttons either. It doesn't look like it'll be useful for other things like a WiFi web browser, which is disappointing as well, I don't want to have to carry multiple devices around, and I do want a WiFi web browser device with me at all times. Nice idea though, good luck with it.
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This is indeed because of the loudness war. It is not a defect or limitation of the CD or digital medium but rather due to a record label's marketing department's decision to alter (read: fuck up) the mastering process. Google 'death magnetic compression'.
My biggest complaint about the mp3 music player industry is: Why are they still over selling 1/2/4GB devices!?!?!?!?!?
Honestly, I can't even imagine why Apple, Sony, Philips and other large brands that I find in my average tech store even bother to have/sell, but actively promote these minuscule devices. At least 128GB approaches a reasonable size for today's music collections.
To me it is similar to Linus' rant about laptop monitors.
A nano/shuffle's entire purpose is to support your workout (shuffle = music, nano adds radio, podcast, and recently BT headphones). It's for folks who have a decent but not large selection of music that just want to use it for a specific purpose.
Nowadays, with streaming radio and decent data plans, the smartphone is definitely better and doesn't even need more than 32 much less 128GB.
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A rip from the MASTERS (I assume you mean final mix) is only sometimes a good thing, after hearing my own bands recordings before and after mastering I want a mastered version please. Mastering is an important step in the recording process, of course we master for quality ensuring there is no clipping or un-necessary compression, however some compression can be necessary to get a good result.
FLAC rips from vinyl do not come close. When a track has been mixed it is mastered for the different media that it will be delivered for. A vinyl master has a shelving filter to remove low frequencies (leaving them in will cause the needle to skip or bounce on the LP), vinyl also has a much smaller dynamic range than a CD and a high noise floor. Next the sound of vinyl is actually very tinny and lacks bass (put your ear near the needle to hear this), this is made up by boosting base frequencies either in the player (or via an LP input that some older stereo's included), so the sound has already been heavily messed with before it's even gotten to your A to D converters.
The fact that the Kickstarter is now already over $2m after two days suggest that Mr Young or his business has hit on something. Obviously getting a load of big name stars to endorse the product helps not only Pono but themselves.
So a few facts:
Pono wins either way - they have have access to the hi-def source and they start a hi-def revolution with the backing of all the big names. The fact that it's taken so long to get to market but has finally (almost) arrived with this kind of offering also suggests some serious thought has gone into the business and the business model - and now a couple of days in they are already justifying this. I'm impressed although I suspect that the apparent freedom and slickness of the marketing hides a deeper truth which will probably only come to light after the kickstarter finishes i.e. there are tentative deals in place to fold this in with more traditional offerings. Basically if you were iTunes would you like it if a lot of 'your' artists heavily promoting a rival service?
a porno music start up sounds like a pretty good idea :)
To propose a new high quality format that doesn't add anything significantly new to our music options seems a little short sighted. Imagine a format that presents each recorded master track as a separate component, along with as-released mixing settings. You'd gain the ability to not only listen to what the sound engineer came up with, you'd be able to make your own mixes. It'd also make creative mashups much, much easier. That's what I want - not this.
If you think MP3s are about sampling, you're already too far gone to save.
Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
If it doesn't get you a low-level output, I stand by what I (sarcastically) said.
If your receiver has an effects processor in it already, it might even have compression under a name relating to "dynamics". It probably won't support the full control a standalone compressor will do, but it might work.
Unfortunately, I don't have a part number for a non-crappy receiver handy, but a while back I worked with a system that was 5.1-channel surround and offered both digital output and 6 analog RCA jacks on the back with low-level output. Those jacks came with preinstalled plugs that would bridge over to 6 corresponding analog inputs that went right to the amplifier. That amp then had the usual binding posts for the speakers. From a wiring perspective, it was really two separate components: the AV switch, and a 5.1-channel amplifier. I could connect all of my other requisite gear in between the two, supporting my processing and splitting needs.
You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
You're recommending a compressor to counter the over-compression of the TV signal to generate loudness?
If you think someone isn't free to have a different definition of "freedom" you may be a tyrant.
You're certainly right about the AAC/256 part (at least if it's properly encoded). But there are a lot of other things mentioned that cause the sound "at the mixing board" to be superior. In fact, most of them are the mixing itself. Perhaps in the quest to make "the best mix we can to translate to whatever sorrowful playback medium of the average customer" you have actually mixed a brick wall soulless mockery of what you were listening to.
But I understand there's no going back now. It's probably for the best if recording studios start releasing lossless 24/192 audiophile versions, because they might actually be better mixes. I'd buy that for the mix and immediately down-sample to 16/44 so I can have 4.5x as much music.
I sometimes ask revealing, often ignorant-seeming questions. Maybe they're harder to answer than you think.
Little ARM SoC + Linux + Massive amount of flash memory = Pono Not much going on here.
No, I'm recommending a compressor to tame the wide dynamic range left over when a movie is mastered for theatrical release, but then actually shown in a home.
Compression itself is not bad. Bad compression is bad. Ideally the compression, along with the equalization, mixing, spacial image, et cetera, are all set to comfortable levels for the playback environment. In a movie theatre, a loud explosion is acceptable because it adds to the show. In a home environment, a loud explosion makes the viewers worry that the kids woke up, detracting from the show.
From what I can tell, TV shows usually aren't actually compressed for loudness. The exceptions are action-heavy shows like police procedurals, where people often start shouting without warning. Rather, most TV shows are explicitly mixed carefully. The theme music is mixed quietly, and the dialogue is mixed louder, but the volume level of any particular track never changes.
You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
If you're using a half decent receiver then it likely has a setting called 'Dynamics' or 'Dynamic Range' or similar. Just switch this down from full range to something a little more appropriate for your house. It does the same job as all the expensive external compressors that people are saying you should buy; you just don't get the same level of control. That said, you don't really need it either, you're not mastering an album - just trying to watch some TV.
All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain.
I've done that before with a similar-level receiver in the '90s. To keep costs down, it looks like the current "crappy" receivers have dropped most of those functions, assuming HDMI being the dominating connection.
My "crappy" receiver is a TX-NR609 http://www.intl.onkyo.com/prod...
My old JVC had the ability to take in 5.1 analog and output 5.1 pre-amp or post-amp. You could pump in 5.1 in separate RCA jacks, equalize, then output for another amp, or internal amp, and out to speakers, or take in inputs equalized by an external device, and output to speakers. It cost more than the Onkyo, but was 20 years older, so higher in the "quality/features" scale at the time.
Learn to love Alaska
Ah yes. I'm going to believe somebody's theories and "research" instead of my own ears.
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I love you too, APK. But my heart is promised to another.
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