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Swedish Fare Dodgers Organize Against Transportation Authorities

An anonymous reader writes "Every transit network has its fare beaters, the riders who view payment as either optional or prohibitively expensive. Many cities, most notably New York, view turnstile-jumpers as a top policing priority, reasoning that scofflaws might graduate to more serious crimes if left alone. But in Stockholm, the offenders seem to have defeated the system. From the article: 'For over a decade, Mr. Tengblad has belonged to a group known as Planka.nu (rough translation: “free-ride.now”), an organization with only two prerequisites for admission: Members must pay a monthly fee of about $15 and, as part of a continuous demonstration against the fare, promise to evade payment every time they ride. If travelers keep their side of the agreement, the group will cover any of the roughly $180 fines that might result. (An unlimited ride pass for 30 days costs about $120.)'"

389 comments

  1. Insurance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It's just an insurance scheme. With heavier penalties, it would not work.

    1. Re:Insurance by TubeSteak · · Score: 4, Insightful

      With heavier penalties, it would not work.

      If heavier penalties fixed anything, nobody in the USA would do drugs or drive drunk.

      --
      [Fuck Beta]
      o0t!
    2. Re:Insurance by mlts · · Score: 2

      I'd disagree. There was an article on /. a while back that it is better to have a small penalty that is heavily enforced than it is to have a large one that is not often used.

      For example, if there was a 100 SEK (~ $15.00) fine every time a turnstile jumper did their act, and it was enforced to the point where if someone did that act, they would get a citation and have to pay the fee, the turnstile jumping would stop. However, if there were a $1000 SEK fine, but only one in 100 people got busted for it, the behavior would be encouraged, and people would start to dislike/mistrust whomever enforces/sets the penalties.

      Of course, even with enforcement and penalties, sometimes throwing the entire treasury at enforcement may not be enough. Prohibition comes to mind. In cases like that, it is really the will of the people against the government, and if there is overwhelming support to jump turnstiles, it would save money in enforcement to not charge if people feel that strongly about not paying.

      Pick your battles, and the battles that need enforcement, enforce it heavily so a would-be scofflaw would know they are going to get caught. Even if the fine was 1 SEK, it is still the fact they got caught that will deter this.

    3. Re:Insurance by Bayowolf · · Score: 0, Redundant

      Doing most drugs &/or driving drunk are signs of having an addiction. I wouldn't know how addicting turnstile-jumping would be (since I live in a city with little public transit); I'm not sure people actually *crave* not paying for a bus or train ticket in the same way one would crave crack.

    4. Re:Insurance by spire3661 · · Score: 2, Informative

      "Doing most drugs &/or driving drunk are signs of having an addiction." Just no. This is Puritan thinking.

      --
      Good-bye
    5. Re:Insurance by Spy+Handler · · Score: 1

      If heavier penalties fixed anything, nobody in the USA would do drugs or drive drunk.

      USA is a poor example since the penalties for drugs vary widely (anywhere from probation to decades in prison) and are inconsistently enforced.

      Singapore on the other hand, has a consistent and well-enforced policy: sell drugs, you get executed. Note that drug usage in SG is near zero.

    6. Re:Insurance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So, presumably, Singapore's government is unable to take advantage of any financing from trafficking drugs?

    7. Re:Insurance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Driving drunk is; it's a sign that you're unable to control your drug use enough to abstain when it's clearly necessary. Using a substance in the privacy of your own home isn't, unless you're injecting non-sterile and/or non-pharmaceutical-grade substances, or injecting any substance without appropriate medical training.

    8. Re:Insurance by BasilBrush · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Singapore on the other hand, has a consistent and well-enforced policy: sell drugs, you get executed. Note that drug usage in SG is near zero.

      How do you know? An alternative theory is that the penalty just makes those that disobey the law more careful.

      For a tiny city state, it seems to have an awfully busy Narcotics Bureau, with many sizable drug trafficker incidents.
      http://www.cnb.gov.sg/newsroom...

      That's not near zero.

      In any country, the number caught is a fraction of the number that are not caught. It's quite likely that the fraction is even lower in Singapore as dealers take more care.

    9. Re:Insurance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I'd disagree. There was an article on /. a while back that it is better to have a small penalty that is heavily enforced than it is to have a large one that is not often used.

      I do not know how good a job the police forces in the Nordic countries do but their idea of deterring crime is precisely what you said (I assume that they're all pretty much the same but the news story I saw was from Finland). Money spent on crime prevention is a finite resource and goes to police work and prisons and they emphasize the former much more than the latter and thus prison sentences simply have to be short because the prison budget is small. A first-time burglar in Finland can get away with a hefty fine, if the stolen property can be found and returned. If a high percentage of crimes are also solved, it means heavily enforced small penalties, like you said. I believe that at least when it comes to violent crime, the rate is almost 100 % there since the perpetrator and victim almost always know each other and with alcohol involved, there's no criminal mastermind carefully hiding his tracks. Muggings are unheard of and only a handful of "usual suspects" have the ability to pull off a robbery successfully. An amusing anecdote I heard from a Finnish friend is that once an amateur bank robber failed because he showed a note to the teller but had misspelled 'this is a robbery" so bad that she couldn't help laughing at it and at that point the robber figured that his plan isn't working and it's best to flee...

    10. Re:Insurance by fph+il+quozientatore · · Score: 2

      Heavier penalties, or more frequent controls. Both methods work to reduce the expected value of fare dodging, and the latter has a better educational value: if controls are rare, when one gets caught they think "Wow, how unlucky", not "I shouldn't do that anymore".

      --
      My first program:

      Hell Segmentation fault

    11. Re:Insurance by sir-gold · · Score: 1

      You might be more right about "insurance" than you thought.
      They collect a monthly premium, which is save it up against the unlikely (but not impossible) odds that there will have to be a payout.

      It's exactly like car insurance, except it's "getting caught" insurance.

      The problem with simply increasing the fines is that the fines become disproportionate to the crime, and becomes an unfair burden for a very petty crime.
      The real solution would be a massive increase in enforcement (using cameras or something), to increase the likelihood of getting caught, such that the insurance payout increases to the point where it's no longer sustainable.

      One of these solutions costs money (increased enforcement), the other one makes money (increased fines)

      I know that in the US, the solution would be to simply increase fines, but hopefully Sweden is smarter than that (judging by the way they treat crime in general, I think they are).

      However, if the scheme is profitable at $15 per month, there is a lot of leeway left before premiums exceed normal fare price

    12. Re:Insurance by sir-gold · · Score: 5, Interesting

      There is a certain addictive feeling that comes with stealing (or breaking the law, or simply lying habitually) and getting away with it. Similar to a "runner's high", but with less running.
      As with any drug, repeated exposure builds tolerance, doubly-so for a "drug" created by a stressful situation that isn't as stressful the second time around.
      This is why people who are addicted to "getting away with it" feel the need to escalate to bigger and bigger risks, in order to chase that same high.

      This is why Sweden doesn't want people to get "addicted" to fare jumping, they are afraid that it might escalate into something more

    13. Re:Insurance by sir-gold · · Score: 1

      In the case of marijuana (in the US), the penalties range from serious prison time, to completely legal.

    14. Re:Insurance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not drug usage, but people getting caught.

    15. Re:Insurance by easyTree · · Score: 1

      Yep - there are enough corrupt politicians as it is - they don't need more competing with them.

      Disclaimer: I'm extrapolating from my knowledge of the US.

    16. Re:Insurance by j-beda · · Score: 2

      Another option is to save money on enforcement and accept that there will be some "cheating". Vancouver's Skytrain system has operated for almost 30 years with no fare-gates - it has always been kind of nice to feel that people were trusted to pay their way.

      Unfortunately many people felt that there were too many cheaters, so they have decided to put up expensive gates to make cheaters less able to cheat. The expected cost of the gates and related infrastructure are much greater than the estimated amounts "lost" to cheaters, but it makes some people feel better I suppose.

      Vancouver seems to have less than 5% losses due to cheating across the system - about $18 million per year, and that the fare gate system will reduce this by about $7 million per year. While the new "Compass" smart-card system will be a pleasure to use in comparison with cash and paper tickets, it is not clear to me that installing turnstiles in all the stations was a cost-effective decision. I think things would have worked fine with a continuation of the historical system of trusting people to have paid their fare when they go get on the train. But I suppose this exercise does provide economic stimulation in the form of jobs for gate installers and the like...

      https://buzzer.translink.ca/20...

    17. Re:Insurance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The USA is so fucked up regarding drugs it's not even funny. Was watching a Nat Geo Program the other day on Nashville's drug scene. What was really fucked up was that if you where caught with any marijuana and the cops believed you where distributing it they could seize your property or someone else's property if they thought the other person should have know you where going to use it in the drug trade. Now if you where transporting proscription drugs they couldn't seize anything and you would face lower penalties. Which is crazy because those prescription drugs are worse for society in everyday.

    18. Re:Insurance by Mashiki · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Considering the low level that's required to "blow over" for the last 10+ years? Pretty sure we've got a problem, considering two off the shelf beers will put you over the legal limit in most places, or a run-of-the-mill mixed drink.

      --
      Om, nomnomnom...
    19. Re:Insurance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Fund public transportation with tax dollars.

      Tax businesses and property in the areas that are served by public transportation, reasoning that the public transportation benefits them the most. It wouldn't hurt to divert some of the tax dollars being wasted on enforcement over to the funds as well.

      If it is free anyway, there will no longer be the thrill of breaking the law. If it becomes overcrowded, mission accomplished (public transportation reduces pollution and traffic accidents (highest cause of death)), increase the taxes to cover more trains and buses since the demand is clearly there.

      Seriously, this solution seems like a no-brainer.

      Who really loses from this arrangement? And how does that social harm stack up against the social harm caused by the current system?

    20. Re:Insurance by mjwx · · Score: 1

      With heavier penalties, it would not work.

      If heavier penalties fixed anything, nobody in the USA would do drugs or drive drunk.

      Penalties are pointless if they aren't enforced.

      The US has a problem with bad drivers (not just drunk/drug drivers, but terrible driving overall) because the laws are not enforced in any meaningful fashion.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    21. Re:Insurance by Mitchell314 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Just don't drink and drive. It's not rocket science.

      --
      I read TFA and all I got was this lousy cookie
    22. Re:Insurance by zippthorne · · Score: 2

      It should be two cocktails by your reckoning, unless the cocktails are being mixed too strong. (which, if the numerous restaurant/bar improvement reality shows are any indication is pretty much a near-certainty...)

      And the problem is that if you're going to set a limit based on blood concentration, you have to choose where that limit is. If you choose too high of a limit, there is a chance that some subset of the population will be (even slightly) impaired, and you'll get the blame when one of those people (even a small percentage of the also small percentage of people who drive after drinking will still have a reasonable chance of being non-zero when you multiply by a third of a billion people.) causes injury or death.

      There doesn't seem to be a downside to lowering the limit, so it seems it will ever creep downward. I suppose it will finally stop when we reach the level of natural fermentation within our own blood, though. It would be quite a tyranny to assign criminal blame for someone who simply doesn't metabolize the alcohol which has naturally fermented from the sugars in his blood as fast as most people.

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
    23. Re:Insurance by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Nowhere in the US is marijuana "completely legal". It's illegal at the federal level, thus illegal, even for medical use, in all 50 states. That the feds don't care is a separate issue.

    24. Re:Insurance by sir-gold · · Score: 2

      OK, technically that's true, but historically the federal government doesn't get involved in drugs unless it's happening across state or national borders, and that rarely affects the average person.

      Not counting the drugs that the CIA is secretly selling, or congress is secretly snorting, of course.
      (seriously, D.C. has the highest percentage of cocaine-contaminated $20 bills out of the entire nation)

    25. Re:Insurance by thegarbz · · Score: 2

      In some cases thought it's just about what makes financial sense. I asked a bus driver in Austria once what was the cheapest way to get to my school for the next 3 months. He replied the cheapest was is to keep 50euro on you and simply pay the fine whenever you get caught.

      That is also exactly what I did. I got caught twice. All in all I was still miles ahead financially. No rush required.

    26. Re:Insurance by Loki_1929 · · Score: 1

      The Federal government lacks jurisdiction for intrastate commerce. Thus, unless it's being sold across state lines, Federal law doesn't apply. Doesn't matter that the Supreme Court came up with some convoluted reasoning for making the interstate commerce clause apply; the Constitution says what it says. The state's law has the final say for intrastate commerce, and it isn't illegal in all US states.

      --
      -- "Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else."
    27. Re: Insurance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      4 years in Singapore and I can say completely anecdotally. False on both accounts.

    28. Re:Insurance by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Thus, unless it's being sold across state lines, Federal law doesn't apply.

      The feds have stepped in before to shut down operations with no evidence of cross-border activity. If the trade of it crosses the border somewhere, the feds have jurisdiction. Just like in-state kidnappings are under the jurisdiction of the feds (if they want it). Because some kidnappings sometimes cross borders, the feds can assume that all do.

      Doesn't matter that the Supreme Court came up with some convoluted reasoning for making the interstate commerce clause apply; the Constitution says what it says.

      Ah, so the Supreme Court is wrong, and you are right. But nobody listens to you, so I'll quote the Supreme Court before you.

    29. Re: Insurance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Traffic fatality rates have fallen continuously year over year since the 1980s. Government activism to reduce drunk driving is the major reason.

    30. Re:Insurance by YoungManKlaus · · Score: 1

      ack, we also have systems like that in vienna, but since our annual ticket is so cheap (365 euros) not many people use them (also they are illegal, but who really cares if you set something up in your friends circle).
      Jeah, you save half the money maybe, but m2c its not worth all the extra hastle. Also you can use the city ticket if you travel by train -> free until you reach city boundaries -> in my case thats ~1.2€ less (per direction) if I travel to my parents in the countryside.

    31. Re:Insurance by Loki_1929 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The feds have stepped in before to shut down operations with no evidence of cross-border activity. If the trade of it crosses the border somewhere, the feds have jurisdiction. Just like in-state kidnappings are under the jurisdiction of the feds (if they want it). Because some kidnappings sometimes cross borders, the feds can assume that all do.

      The Feds have stepped all over states' rights since the founding of this country; moreso in the past few decades. The states have finally begun to take notice and many are working to reclaim those rights. The Feds have only been able to get away with it for so long because the states didn't try to stop them. With that changing, things are going to get more and more interesting. As evidence, there have been many recent proposed amendments to state bills on everything from guns to Marijuana that have directed state police to prevent Federal authorities from enforcing Federal laws contrary to the state laws where the state is given priority in the Constitution or at least to not assist Federal authorities in executing such Federal laws. Some have even called for the arrest of Federal authorities taking such actions. While these have been largely defeated thus far, the idea of proposing them would have been unthinkable just a decade ago. There's been a progression that seems to be leading toward state authorities actively resisting Federal authorities enforcing apparently unconstitutional laws.

      Ah, so the Supreme Court is wrong, and you are right. But nobody listens to you, so I'll quote the Supreme Court before you.

      Not the first time the Supreme Court has been wrong. The Supreme Court decided "separate but equal" was constitutional. It decided Japanese interment was constitutional. And it was apparently constitutional to fire teachers who were members of "subversive" groups. Well, at least until the Supreme Court reversed itself. That's happened numerous times before and it'll almost certainly happen again.

      The Supreme Court can rule that Catholicism is the national religion of the United States and that everyone in the US must convert to and practice it zealously. That doesn't make it correct. It can rule that a Federal law stripping all registered Democrats of the right to vote is constitutional. It isn't. Our system of government is imperfect, as is every other. It's run by imperfect humans who are subject to any number of influences that can impede their objectivity. We the people need to stand up, collectively, when our government gets something wrong and get it fixed; not throw our hands up and declare all hope lost because the Supreme Court issued a ruling. We need to be able to do that without a full blown revolution too, since those tend to be very bloody, expensive, and destructive. The way we seem to be tending toward handling this is through our state governments. I think that's one of the healthier ways to correct Federal mistakes and I hope to see the trend continue. As the states assert an increasing level of sovereignty, we'll see the power and scope of the Federal government diminish. Hopefully, that continues until it no longer has such horrifyingly complete dominion over the citizens of the United States.

      --
      -- "Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else."
    32. Re:Insurance by Mashiki · · Score: 1

      Just don't drink and drive. It's not rocket science.

      Gotcha. So, you head out for a meal with your S/O and you have a beer. And you're automatically over the limit, but you can be smacked out on various drugs, anti-depressants, or pain killers and it's a-okay.

      Genius!

      --
      Om, nomnomnom...
    33. Re:Insurance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Point is it's not necessarily a sign of addiction as was claimed. Try to keep up please.

      I'm starting to suspect that many Slashdot posts are done by failed AI experiments. Recognize some keywords/patterns, regurgitate a phrase.

    34. Re:Insurance by TheLink · · Score: 1

      See also: http://edition.cnn.com/2013/09...

      I wonder if that guy was impaired or he built up a tolerance.

      --
    35. Re:Insurance by Alioth · · Score: 2

      Head out for a meal with your S/O and don't have a beer. Have something else instead. It's really not rocket science. No, it's not A-OK to be driving on prescription drugs that limit your ability to drive either.

    36. Re:Insurance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I agree that the prohibition on using other things that negatively impact driving ability should be equally enforced, but how does that make it OK to drive while under the influence of a significant amount of alcohol?

      It's not that hard: don't drink alcohol if you need to drive before it is fully processed by your body and don't drive until you're fully sober if you had drinks.

    37. Re:Insurance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Tax businesses and property in the areas that are served by public transportation, reasoning that the public transportation benefits them the most. It wouldn't hurt to divert some of the tax dollars being wasted on enforcement over to the funds as well.

      Public transport is paid in more than half by taxes in most places. Having users pay at least some part of the costs adds to overall cost, but it greatly reduces use on short distance trips (which is good for efficiency as well as public health) and perceieved safety for passengers, espeially at night.

      If it becomes overcrowded, mission accomplished (public transportation reduces pollution and traffic accidents (highest cause of death)),

      Public transport reduces neither pollution, nor traffic accindents. In fact, if it is in the form of buses, it causes those things. Only if it replaces forms of traffic that are more polluting or more likely to cause accidents, there can be a net benefit. In practice, this seldomly happens. Public transport mostly replaces walking and biking. Also, not traffic accidents, but cardiovascular disease is the largest cause of death. Stimulating the use of public transport for short distances probably adds to the rate of occurance.

      increase the taxes to cover more trains and buses since the demand is clearly there

      If the price (to the end user) is zero, demand always exists.

      Who really loses from this arrangement?

      The taxpayers and the people who would use the now overcrowded public transport systems anyway.

    38. Re: Insurance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Other important contributions are safer cars and a larger fraction of traffic carried over divided roads without at-grade intersections.

    39. Re:Insurance by AmiMoJo · · Score: 1

      The way to deal with this kind of low level crime is by making it socially unacceptable. If other people didn't want to associate with fare dodgers, or if they called them out at the stations and called the staff over when they saw it happening that would probably be more effective than "hard" enforcement.

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    40. Re:Insurance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They have laws about chewing gum too - yet just about every self-respecting Singaporean keeps a stash of gum about their person 24x7.

    41. Re:Insurance by Talderas · · Score: 1

      Wickard v Filburn is probably the case your looking for... where not participating in a form a commerce is still participation and thus subject to regulation.

      --
      "Lack of speed can be overcome. In the worst case by patience." --Znork
    42. Re: Insurance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually if your impaired due to other drugs, you can still get busted.

    43. Re:Insurance by Mashiki · · Score: 1

      Head out for a meal with your S/O and don't have a beer. Have something else instead. It's really not rocket science. No, it's not A-OK to be driving on prescription drugs that limit your ability to drive either.

      That's nice. I'm still having a problem with the implied statement that a single beer is impairing someone. And you'd best let law makers in most other places know, because the laws do not apply equally to being on scrips or even OTCs and driving vs "drunk" under the law. I directly blame this on the screaming harpy brigade known as MADD.

      --
      Om, nomnomnom...
    44. Re:Insurance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That too. DWI and animal cruelty come to mind for this case.

    45. Re:Insurance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I fully support zero tolerance laws for ANY drugs or alcohol while driving. Many countries already do this,

    46. Re:Insurance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If a single beer doesn't impair you at all, then why are you drinking it? Have an alcohol free beer if you just want the taste.

    47. Re:Insurance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Until one of the snitches gets their face smashed in.

    48. Re: Insurance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You cover what you can. I've had a DUI before... And let's be real, I probably shouldn't have been driving a hundred times before I was caught.

      The problem is people are so sensitive about their "rights" that they don't really give a damn about the person that they've just killed. 2 beers certainly does impaire you.. And the reality most people aren't just having 2 beers.

      They just like to use that as their fight against drinking and driving laws (if they made it 3 beers, or 4 your argument would just advance along with it).

      Try to be a good person that doesn't put others at risk. I was an idiot for the abusive manner I had towards life when I was younger and I certainly deserved what came from it.

      Instead of word vomit trying to protect your imagined rights, try to consider that you're driving a ton + vehicle and people just like you kill people every day. Just like people like me do. Which is why I don't drink and drive at all now.

    49. Re:Insurance by Meski · · Score: 1

      And your prisons would be nigh on empty.

    50. Re:Insurance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not sure about that; owning an unregistered computer or smart phone is illegal and carry a heavy fine in Sweden but some people still have those without registering with the government.

    51. Re:Insurance by Loki_1929 · · Score: 1

      One of the more absurd stretches of the Commerce Clause, to be sure. Also one of the more pathetic examples of the failure of this country's government to secure the rights of its people. Ordering a family to destroy food they've grown for themselves; we ought to be embarrassed.

      --
      -- "Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else."
  2. In the US the people running the organization by mark_reh · · Score: 5, Insightful

    would be charged with criminal conspiracy.

    1. Re:In the US the people running the organization by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Troll

      In my part of the U.S. the paying customers would just collectively stomp the shit out of mr. Tengblad. But we don't have trains, or other social bloodsucking mechanisms required for Obama like sociopaths. Everybody wins.

    2. Re:In the US the people running the organization by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Conspiracy like racketeering is one of the totalitarian catch all offenses put in place to counteract the radical spirit of the constitution and is a great way to deprive someone of civil rights when you don't like them. Free countries who have an enlightened populace and a government which represents them and not control will police actual committed crimes and not just talking about crimes.

    3. Re:In the US the people running the organization by MarkusH · · Score: 1

      If they remove the requirement that you must break the law, then it is probably legal as a type of insurance. For example, there exists in the US insurance for speeding, expired tags, etc. that will pay your fine. You just have to phrase it as "if you forgot and broke the law accidentally, we will cover your ticket".

    4. Re:In the US the people running the organization by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, what kind of barbaric country would stop people from planning to kill somebody? Everyone knows that in a free country, you must wait until after the murder has happened before the police will do something about it.

    5. Re:In the US the people running the organization by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      like UberCab ? they are a $5B operation based on evading cab/taxi licensing/insurance laws no ?

    6. Re:In the US the people running the organization by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Could you tell us why fare dodging is a good thing, and why the act of fare dodging should be decriminalized?

      I'm interested to see if there are any real, practical, workable benefits from fare dodging in the US.

      If you have any hard data to back up your ideas that would be great.

    7. Re:In the US the people running the organization by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Yes, what kind of barbaric country would stop people from planning to kill somebody?

      RICO, the primary American anti-racketeering law, has been used against political protesters.

    8. Re:In the US the people running the organization by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because it's perpetrated by the brother to keep the man down. Duh.

    9. Re:In the US the people running the organization by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      Thanks for answering that rhetorical question with a totally irrelevant, unverified opinion. Theft laws have been used against children, and fraud laws have been used against charities, and murder laws have been used against little old ladies, and sexual assault laws have been used against religious leaders. Meanwhile, RICO laws have been used against criminal organisations. What is your point, and how does it support the notion that laws against conspiring to commit a crime, or ordering others to do so, should be abolished?

    10. Re:In the US the people running the organization by NotSanguine · · Score: 2, Insightful

      In my part of the U.S. the paying customers would just collectively stomp the shit out of mr. Tengblad. But we don't have trains, or other energy and environment saving public transportation required for a more livable and sustainable world.. Everybody loses.

      There. FTFY

      --
      No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
    11. Re:In the US the people running the organization by mark_reh · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Taking advantage of loop-holes is perfectly legal and extremely American. We have always been about following the letter but not the intent of the law which is why we're still arguing about guns, abortion, and grazing fees on federal land. Mitt Romney takes advantage of loop-holes in tax laws to hide his money from US taxes by shuffling it around shell corporations in the Cayman islands. Mitt pays accountants and lawyers to set all that stuff up. The whole reason the US produces so many lawyers is to help rich people and corporations walk right up the the often fuzzy line between what is legal and what isn't.

      Taking advantage of loop-holes is not the same thing as breaking laws. The people in Sweden are breaking laws by not paying for tickets to ride mass transit. The group that is encouraging and assisting them to break the law is no different that any other organized criminal gang. Now that they've invented/discovered the advantage of organizing criminal activity (duh!), I wonder what business they might get into next. I hear there's a lot of money to be made in drugs and prostitution.

    12. Re:In the US the people running the organization by mark_reh · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Political protest is not illegal in the US. However, breaking laws as a form of political protest (or as a means of generating income, or whatever other purpose you can think of for breaking laws) is illegal.

    13. Re:In the US the people running the organization by mark_reh · · Score: 1

      Can you point out where such insurance is sold? I have never heard of it.

    14. Re:In the US the people running the organization by tompaulco · · Score: 2

      Ubercab may be taking advantage of loopholes in some jurisdictions. In other jurisdictions, they are merely attempting to relabel their service as the service they actually provide would require them to pay fees, be licensed and be regulated. They claim they are a "ride sharing" operation, but in fact, you are not sharing a ride with them. You call them up, tell them where you want to go, and they take you there. Kind of like a taxi. You can't just walk up to one and ask for a ride, you have to prearrange it, but where I live, you can't just hail a cab either. You have to call them first, even if there is one idling out at your curb.

      --
      If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
    15. Re:In the US the people running the organization by Eunuchswear · · Score: 0

      [I'm fairly certain that conspiracy is] a very Anglosaxon concept.

      No, it's not just "Anglo Saxon".

      In French "criminal conspiracy" is "Association de malfaiteurs" for example

      --
      Watch this Heartland Institute video
    16. Re:In the US the people running the organization by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You might like to check the origins of the Norse vikings and the Angles and Saxons.

    17. Re:In the US the people running the organization by 0111+1110 · · Score: 0

      You seem to be confused. Breaking laws is not wrong. I break as many laws as I can. I take pride in breaking the law. And yet I am a very moral person who cares about others and believes in putting others before myself. What is 'extremely American' is basing your actions on philosophy. That's what the Founding Terrorists did. They broke the law, defied The King, but they did what they thought was right and based their actions on a well thought out philosophy. Now that is what is American. Following either the letter or the spirit ofthe law is something I associate more with say Germans.

      --
      Quite an experience to live in fear, isn't it? That's what it is to be a slave.
    18. Re:In the US the people running the organization by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...and that'd probably be the first time in the history of the nation that the charge was used even somewhat appropriately.

    19. Re:In the US the people running the organization by Threni · · Score: 1

      Assuming it's actually a crime.

    20. Re:In the US the people running the organization by sjames · · Score: 2

      How about if you plan to trespass because the 'Free Speech Zone' (tm, pat pend) is located 20 miles away in a barbed wire cage inhabited by plague infested rats?

    21. Re:In the US the people running the organization by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 1

      breaking laws as a form of political protest is illegal.

      Yes, it is illegal. But it is NOT "racketeering". If someone is disrupting traffic, or making excessive noise, it is reasonable for them to face the legal consequences, even if they are doing so as a political protest. But it is not reasonable for them to be subjected to excessive penalties meant to be targeted at organized crime. Do you think that black people illegally sitting in the "whites only" section of restaurants in the 1960s were "racketeers"?

    22. Re:In the US the people running the organization by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      In my part of the terrorist state known as the U.S. the simpleton, redneck hicks would just succumb to mob mentality and break out the torches and pitchforks. But we don't have trains, or other energy and environment saving public transportation required for a more livable and sustainable world.. Everybody loses.

      FTFY

    23. Re:In the US the people running the organization by _Shad0w_ · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Chapter 23 of the Swedish Penal Code is titled "On Attempt, Preparation, Conspiracy and Complicity".

      --

      Yeah, I had a sig once; I got bored of it.

    24. Re:In the US the people running the organization by sconeu · · Score: 1

      Sigh... I remember when the entire country was designated as a "Free Speech Zone".

      --
      General Relativity: Space-time tells matter where to go; Matter tells space-time what shape to be.
    25. Re:In the US the people running the organization by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Of course it is, who do think you are kidding?

    26. Re:In the US the people running the organization by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The only thing more American is writing them in the first place.

    27. Re:In the US the people running the organization by spire3661 · · Score: 1

      Great point. Under their worldview, you could have arrested all the people who set Rosa Parks up to be the ideal test case.

      --
      Good-bye
    28. Re:In the US the people running the organization by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I wonder if that is a good thing. The American mentality that laws only apply if you can't find the right attorney to dance around them isn't a good one. It would be a lot healthier to have far fewer laws across the board, but are rigorously enforced.

      This is something Europe tends to do right. There are laws, and in general, people heed them. However, they apply to everyone. Here in the US, laws get applied selectively. A rancher who makes the news brandishing a weapon gets to have free use of Federal lands. A small fry would be tossed in prison, have their herd seized and sold at auction for doing the same thing.

    29. Re:In the US the people running the organization by sjames · · Score: 1

      Agreed, it's sad. All the more reason I fully support a bit of law breaking for protests.

    30. Re:In the US the people running the organization by Arker · · Score: 1

      While I agree with your first paragraph the second is rot. Europe has tons of ridiculous old laws that everyone just ignores. The US is closer to what you want than Europe, we are just breaking our own system apart by mounding up way too many laws in a culture that tells us that whatever is on the books should be enforced.

      --
      =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
      Friends don't let friends enable ecmascript.
    31. Re:In the US the people running the organization by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Care to tell us which country, or contries that is?

    32. Re:In the US the people running the organization by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 3, Informative

      When RICO was used against political protesters, it was not used by prosecutors or police. It was used by their political opponents in a civil suit, and the penalties were not accessed against the protesters (who broke the law), but against the organizations the protestors were assumed to be representing, many of which did not condone the law breaking. This was not at all an attempt to punish lawbreaking, but was a clear attempt to silence dissent. In 2003, the Supreme Court ruled unanimously against this particular abuse of racketeering laws.

    33. Re:In the US the people running the organization by Antique+Geekmeister · · Score: 1

      > Sigh... I remember when the entire country was designated as a "Free Speech Zone".

      The US has _never_ been a completely "Free Speech Zone". Look up what happened at the Kent State protests, or the McCarthy Era behavior of the House Un-American Activities Committee". Or look earlier to the Boston Commons, which helped trigger the US revolution, or the more recent and sometimes legally very strange handling of more recent Wall Street protests.

      We are always at war, politically, between free speech, safety, and loyalty to the current regime. I'm pleased that the US has learned to handle these more peacefully, but am sometimes very disappointed at the subtler attempts to silence protests. The "free speech zones" are a very dangerous concept.

    34. Re:In the US the people running the organization by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

      And in Sweden, politicians taking money from lobbyists and crafting their laws to benefit those lobbyist's clients would be called corruption.

    35. Re:In the US the people running the organization by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In 2003, the Supreme Court ruled unanimously [nytimes.com] against this particular abuse of racketeering laws.

      That was then, this is now. Looking at some of the recent decisions of the Supreme Court I wonder if they have even READ the Constitution.

    36. Re:In the US the people running the organization by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

      Uber find a way to work within whatever the local laws are. In Britain there are two classes:

      1) Taxis, which have a taximeter, and drivers who have a taxi driver license. They may be hailed on the street.

      2) Private hire cars, which may not have a taximeter, and must have a driver with a private hire license. They may not be hailed from the street, and must be prearranged.

      Uber is using the second type of drivers. And the taxi drivers are protesting what they see as a threat to their business, by claiming the iPhone with Uber app is a taximeter. They are planning a day of disruption in London in protest.

      But the authorities say Uber are breaking no laws. They are properly licensed and regulated as private hire cars and drivers. No loophole, just a newish business model.

    37. Re:In the US the people running the organization by ultranova · · Score: 1

      Breaking laws is not wrong. I break as many laws as I can. I take pride in breaking the law. And yet I am a very moral person who cares about others and believes in putting others before myself.

      It must be difficult to balance your urge to mug and murder everyone you pass with your compassion for them.

      That's what the Founding Terrorists did. They broke the law, defied The King, but they did what they thought was right and based their actions on a well thought out philosophy.

      I guess that would be the difference between people who write constitutions and people who write absurd statements on Slashdot. Speaking of which: do you also cheer for the NSA, and wish Nixon was still a president? I'm trying to figure out if you're more like a theme park anarchist or a would-be tyrant.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    38. Re:In the US the people running the organization by ArmoredDragon · · Score: 1

      That really depends on what city you live in. Besides, I wouldn't say required to be livable or sustainable; in some cases it is rather the opposite. In areas like where I live at, the population density is so low that mass transit is extremely impractical. Either there need to be a ton of stopping off points, or you would often have to walk quite a ways; in any scenario all of the mass transit options here require you spend a lot of time on your commute as it typically involves two hours worth of commute time each day if you take that option.

      We're not New York City or Chicago. We don't have massive skyscrapers that tons of people can camp inside of all at once. You could never, EVER, have a subway run to every neighborhood in a practical manner, and in spite of there being no shortage of buses, bus schedules, or bus stops, the bus still takes a long fucking time to get anywhere. Meanwhile there's no shortage of parking. EVERYBODY has a car out here for this reason. The area I'm talking about is the greater Phoenix metro area.

    39. Re:In the US the people running the organization by MarkusH · · Score: 1

      It was a program called ticketsbite, based in Nevada I think, although it looks like they may have gone out of business (the website seems to be down). There is also trafficare international, which seems to be still up.

    40. Re:In the US the people running the organization by sir-gold · · Score: 2

      Cities that grew before automobiles and mass-transit tended to be based around the "the 12-block walk". Most people aren't willing to walk more than 12 blocks to get to work/play (and many were too poor to own and maintain a horse). This meant that most cities (or semi-independant business districts, in the case of larger cities) were limited to 12 blocks for a long period of time, and became more dense over time, instead of becoming larger.

      When mass-transit was invented (still pre-automobile) it was still based on those same 12-block walking limitations. Each stop was designed to serve a 12 block radius, and cities began growing outward along these stops. (as a side note, this new expansion allowed the rich to easily flee the crowded center, which is why you still see mansions in inner-city slums today)

      The automobile threw all that out the window, and cities were free to sprawl far and wide (which they did, much to the sadness of people who prefer forests of trees over forests of identical houses)

      The best kind of cities for mass transit are the ones that grew mostly in the middle stages, after mass transit, but before the automobile.
      Older cities tend to be too tightly packed, and newer cities tend to be too sprawling.

      This is why it works well in some places and not others, it's all about the age of the city.

    41. Re:In the US the people running the organization by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So if I understand you correctly, breaking laws is illegal. Are you sure ?

    42. Re:In the US the people running the organization by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just because you got up-voted, doesn't mean your Troll is more honest and blatant than mine. It's more likely that it was more politically correct not to respond to the Obama like sociopaths part that appealed to the rat bag commie moderators. Still your part about "everybody loses" is too cynical for most air headed liberal fags. Care to take another crack at it?

      I know you can't get +6, But another +5 below this one, would give real meaning to a "more livable and sustainable world".

      Really, that line stopped me for a couple of minutes, it could catch on. But only with a +5.

    43. Re:In the US the people running the organization by NotSanguine · · Score: 1

      Just because you got up-voted, doesn't mean your Troll is more honest and blatant than mine. It's more likely that it was more politically correct not to respond to the Obama like sociopaths part that appealed to the rat bag commie moderators. Still your part about "everybody loses" is too cynical for most air headed liberal fags. Care to take another crack at it?

      I know you can't get +6, But another +5 below this one, would give real meaning to a "more livable and sustainable world".

      Really, that line stopped me for a couple of minutes, it could catch on. But only with a +5.

      Hey there AC. Not trolling. Just calling it like I see it. Not interested in up-mods or folks agreeing with me, just speaking my mind. The original AC (assuming that's not you), strongly implied that public transportation was some sort of evil plot. It's not. In many places (not, apparently, in Phoenix, AZ according to another AC -- I won't argue the point), public transportation is cheaper, more efficient, less CO2 emissions heavy and fosters more community interaction than everyone driving their own car.

      That's what I think, and I don't give a rat's ass about the opinions of moderators or others -- unless they can provide concrete evidence as to why I should change my mind.

      So disagree with me if you want. In fact, I'd love to have a spirited discussion about the value of public transportation. However, calling me a troll and the moderators "rat bag commies" and others (not sure who) "air headed liberal fags" doesn't, at least to me, constitute any sort of rational discussion. Which is, presumably, why you posted AC so you don't have to have your ad hominem attacks associated with a particular /. id.

      In any case, you're welcome to your opinion and feel free to respond or not as you like. I have no axe to grind. Heck, go ahead and call me names too, if it makes you feel better. On the off chance you'd actually like to discuss real pros and cons of public transportation or the ways in which communities in the US have (or haven't) implemented quality public transportation, I'd be happy to engage.

      Cheers!

      --
      No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
    44. Re:In the US the people running the organization by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The automobile threw all that out the window, and cities were free to sprawl far and wide (which they did, much to the sadness of people who prefer forests of trees over forests of identical houses)

      From my experience, most if not all of those forests & trees activists are very happy living in nice homes with a great quality of life, they just don't want OTHERS to have the same chance. I personally do want it, no matchbox appartment in a high density block with a bicycle as my only transport for me, thank you very much, that lifestyle was typical of 1970s China. Incidentally, I might even be able to actually see some forests!

    45. Re:In the US the people running the organization by mark_reh · · Score: 2

      Breaking SOME laws is not wrong, but breaking ANY law IS illegal.

    46. Re:In the US the people running the organization by mark_reh · · Score: 1

      Riding the mass transit system without paying for a ticket is definitely a crime and in most countries, encouraging and assisting people with breaking the law is also illegal.

    47. Re:In the US the people running the organization by mark_reh · · Score: 1

      as it is in the US. Your point is?

    48. Re:In the US the people running the organization by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, it is illegal. But it is NOT "racketeering".

      Actually it fits the definition of racketeering perfectly. Running an organization that orders or assists people committing crimes is racketeering.

    49. Re:In the US the people running the organization by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Illegal, like Rosa Parks' protest?

    50. Re:In the US the people running the organization by hey! · · Score: 1

      Perhaps, but in this case the US justice system would have a point.

      This is a criminal enterprise; not a very large one, it is true, but one that nets almost a hundred thousand a year in cash, and obtains services no doubt in the million dollar range, although obviously this doesn't translate directly into *losses* the way taking cash would.

      It's disingenous to call this a "protest". A protest is to get as many people as possible to jump the turnstiles on *one day*. A protest is to boycott the system, maybe standing outside with signs. This is *using* the system you don't want to pay for, and arranging to avoid the fine.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    51. Re:In the US the people running the organization by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Yeah, in Dallas, the one time I needed an "emergency" trip (car broke, I was headed to school), it took about 3 hours to cover the distance that takes me 20 minutes or so at the same time of the day.

      After I got a job, I lived about 10 minutes from work driving. I checked the bus schedules, and the best I could do was about 2 hours. I could bike it in less than that, but I biked in Dallas extensively when I was in college, and that was enough of that. It was too unsafe (the drivers, not me).

      I know people that use the bus regularly, but when going anywhere other than directly downtown from wherever you are, you'll spend hours on the bus.

    52. Re:In the US the people running the organization by interkin3tic · · Score: 1

      1. I'm not sure Mark_reh WAS holding the US up as a good example of justice, just making the observation that in the US, this would be handled differently.

      2. You can cherry pick bad examples of any group of people of sufficient size. The Assange case seems to me to be Sweden following the US. So I don't think cherrypicking is a good way to judge a justice system, and in this case it wouldn't be a very useful approach: the Swedish and the American justice system would be essentially the same.

    53. Re:In the US the people running the organization by aliquis · · Score: 1

      In Norway the police doesn't even carry a gun unless they have gotten permission from above.

    54. Re:In the US the people running the organization by i.r.id10t · · Score: 1

      If you are an AAA member w/ the "gold" level then if you are arrested for anything but DUI AAA will pay your bail/bond and arrange for a local lawyer.

      --
      Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos
    55. Re:In the US the people running the organization by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is according to the ethics and values of the society that you are breaking the laws of. That's how they come into existence in the first place. Just because you personally don't think something is wrong doesn't mean the majority of people around agree.

      I often see idiots posting shit like "law != to morality", however that is EXACTLY what the law is. Morality are opinions and laws are based on those opinions.

    56. Re:In the US the people running the organization by mark_reh · · Score: 1

      That's not the same thing as paying your fine for speeding or not registering your vehicle. You're still going to have to pay the fines and pay the lawyer.

  3. Public transit by rossdee · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Or the Transit Authority can lower the monthly cost for a full time rider to $14.99, and get the government to covere the difference from tax revenue. It is a socialist country you know.
    Just increase the tax on petrol (or whatever is Swedish for gasoline)

    1. Re:Public transit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      (or whatever is Swedish for gasoline)

      Schveetbang.

    2. Re: Public transit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      So people who drive cars, and therefore use public transportation less or not at all, should pay more so that people who do use the system pay less?

    3. Re:Public transit by beelsebob · · Score: 1

      Or... they could just raise the fine to €2000, then they'll have to raise the monthly membership to €167 to compensate, and it'll be cheaper just to get a monthly pass.

    4. Re:Public transit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      American's seem to be obsessed with the socialist bogeyman. Fare dodging and preventing fare dodging has got nothing to do with socialism.

      If the government provides a public utility, yes that is a socialist policy. It is a social policy for the benefit of the population. In that context fare dodging is anti-socialist.

      In fact, in Stockholm the public transit is operated by a private company. So, your suggestion of increasing petrol prices in order to pay for the lost revenue of a private company is one of the least socialist thing I've ever heard of.
      American's seem to be obsessed with the socialist bogeyman. Fare dodging and preventing fare dodging has got nothing to do with socialism.

      If the government provides a public utility, yes that is a socialist policy. It is a social policy for the benefit of the population. In that context fare dodging is anti-socialist.

      In fact, in Stockholm the public transit is operated by a private company. So, your suggestion of increasing petrol prices in order to pay for the lost revenve of a private company is one of the least socialist thing I've ever heard of.

    5. Re:Public transit by Arker · · Score: 0

      "Or the Transit Authority can lower the monthly cost for a full time rider to $14.99, and get the government to covere the difference from tax revenue. It is a socialist country you know."

      It has that reputation, the social democrats ruled post WWII for a very long time and spent their peace dividend on the welfare state. But in some ways it still seems less socialist than the US, having lived both places. Their school system would be seen as an extreme right-wing proposal here I am afraid, which is a shame, as it's a damn good one.

      "Just increase the tax on petrol (or whatever is Swedish for gasoline)"

      It's called bensin. And it's already taxed to punitive levels increases in tax wont increase revenues. Same is true for Alcohol and Tobacco of course.

      --
      =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
      Friends don't let friends enable ecmascript.
    6. Re: Public transit by gl4ss · · Score: 1

      So people who drive cars, and therefore use public transportation less or not at all, should pay more so that people who do use the system pay less?

      that's socialism for you. in other news, the old people who are too sick to work are in old peoples service homes paid by the people who work and don't need such service homes....

      --
      world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
    7. Re:Public transit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sounds like something I did to your mom last night.

    8. Re:Public transit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      (or whatever is Swedish for gasoline)

      Schveetbang.

      Gesundheit.

    9. Re: Public transit by beelsebob · · Score: 2

      No, that's not socialism, that's simply public policy trying to drive lower resource consumption. The government would rather that its citizens burn fewer resources, so they make the less efficient solution more expensive, and the more efficient one cheaper.

    10. Re:Public transit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The cost is already 50% subsidised using taxpayer money. $120/month is roughly the cost of car insurance in Sweden (roughly $1000/year). And gas is more expensive per liter than it is per gallon in the US.
      $15 is the cost of a return ticket from one end of the Stockholm subway to the other end (and yes, that is the subsidised cost).

    11. Re: Public transit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Without such a system, the old people who are too sick to work would die. Such a system significantly extends the life expectancy of the your people who pay in. Feeble minded people might say the young people are not getting anything for their money, but more far sighted intellects recognize that in fact they are purchasing additional years of life, which is something that's very hard to purchase at ANY price.

    12. Re: Public transit by SLi · · Score: 1

      Their school system would be seen as an extreme right-wing proposal here I am afraid, which is a shame, as it's a damn good one.

      Care to elaborate? I live in a Scandinavian country too and I'm curious about what's american-right-wing about our school system :)

    13. Re: Public transit by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Yes. You got it. Instead of clogging the street with your SUV to transport a single person, use a more sensible way of transport.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    14. Re:Public transit by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Umm... well Stockholm is quite a bit of a city, but what the hell makes your public transport system that expensive? Ours is subsidized, true, but we're a far cry from such prices. 2 bucks across town, about 50 for a month ticket and somewhere around 500 (that includes free guarded parking at the edge of the city).

      And that system is fast, clean and reliable.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    15. Re:Public transit by Zironic · · Score: 1

      They can't raise the fine that much since the fine needs to remain reasonable for those that simply forgot their ticket or lost it.

    16. Re:Public transit by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      around 500 for a year. Gee, I should start to proofread...

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    17. Re:Public transit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just increase the tax on petrol (or whatever is Swedish for gasoline)

      Bensin or diesel.

    18. Re:Public transit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And the first child who lost its ticket and got that fine would make for some great press. Not.
      Also, Sweden doesn't use Euros.

    19. Re:Public transit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But that would not show the strength of the police society. The next step is to arm police with bean bag guns and the authority to shoot anyone who looks like they might be trying to evaid payment

    20. Re:Public transit by Nidi62 · · Score: 1

      Tier the fine. Get caught once, maybe 100-150 euros. Twice in a month, bump it up to 200. 3 times, 500. 4 times, 1000. Maybe have it over a 2-3 month period, and the fine level resets after the time period. Forget or lose your ticket once, and it's not the end of the world. But this way habitual fare dodgers actually get hit.

      --
      The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
    21. Re: Public transit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That was his dad in drag.

    22. Re:Public transit by richlv · · Score: 1

      it would be cheaper to do an estonian thing and just make it free: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

      --
      Rich
    23. Re: Public transit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your pretending that you or the government know which uses less resources. Both you and the government don't.

      Proof, see every failed communists state. This is the information problem an open market solves and no communist country was able to find a solution to.

    24. Re:Public transit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That can still be viable. The first time you are caught in a month you get the low band. The second time you get the low band again, plus a written warning. The third time you get the high band, plus a letter before action and annulment of your right to get back into the low band for 6 months (so it's 2000 a pop each time you get caught afterwards).

      What appears to happen there though is that the fare dodgers aren't efficiently caught, so no level of the fine would deter these guys.

    25. Re:Public transit by Zironic · · Score: 2

      I suspect that would be impossible from a legal standpoint since that would require a database of offenders and there are extremely strict regulations on such a thing. Essentially only the police are allowed to do it and they're only allowed to do it if its a criminal offence or necessary for an investigation.

      Since
      A) The transport authority is not the police
      B) This is not a criminal offence
      C) This is not part of an investigation

      It is unlikely they would be allowed to do such a thing.

    26. Re: Public transit by cycler · · Score: 1

      As only in Sweden and I think Chile, risk capital ventures can own schools and they are not obligaded to reinvest the profit.

      The ever perpetual Swedish notion that always "be best in class and play by the rules".
      Trouble is that no-one else is playing by the rules......

      That's why we had a large school company that just said: "We don't make enough money. We'll shutdown business"
      The unfortunate pupils where left for the municipality to sort out.

      Hence the notion of far right wing idea compared to the US.

      /C

    27. Re: Public transit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Paraphrase: blah blah blah, communists!

      That is a ridiculous statement to make. There are many socially progressive states that are not failed. There are even some communist states that seem to be doing well right now, (and maybe one or two more that would be doing better if their economies weren't artificially limited by sanctions).

      Now, back to the topic at hand... I don't think it's unreasonable to conclude public transportation generally uses less resources than everyone driving their own car. With that said, I'm sure there are pretty good examples out there that you could cherry pick to "prove" otherwise (but remember, I said "generally" and not "in every case").

    28. Re: Public transit by Eunuchswear · · Score: 1

      The uniquely low resource consumption of the USA being the demonstration of your thesis?

      --
      Watch this Heartland Institute video
    29. Re: Public transit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your pretending that you or the government know which uses less resources. Both you and the government don't.

      What is your argument exactly? That measuring things is impossible? Yeah, good luck with that.

    30. Re:Public transit by gnasher719 · · Score: 1

      B) This is not a criminal offence

      Isn't it? In many countries fair dodging is a crime, rated similar to theft of a small amount of money. And I can't see what makes you think it is illegal for a company to keep track of who they found cheating on them.

    31. Re:Public transit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is a socialist country you know.

      This (Sweden being socialist) is a common misconception, especially by fuck head retards in the USA that have not got a fucking clue how the world outside their country works. Anyway, fuck you rossdee.

      Yours truly, expat living in Sweden.

    32. Re:Public transit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Umm... well Stockholm is quite a bit of a city, but what the hell makes your public transport system that expensive?

      It is probably the price of installing the new gates that these people already had demonstrated were not effective, and the salaries paid to station agents not trying to stop them...

      I live elsewhere in Scandinavia where we also have a subsidised public transportation system. A few years back I did a calculation on the total costs of getting people to pay for the rides, and it turned out that the amount was significantly higher than the revenue the company running the transport system got in revenue from selling tickets. When I contacted the company telling them they could save millions by letting people ride for free instead, the reply was: "We know. But this is a demand from the politicians. If we do not have this expense getting people to pay, we get no tax money."

    33. Re:Public transit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      In Sweden, strangely enough, fair dodging isn't a crime.

    34. Re:Public transit by Zironic · · Score: 5, Informative

      The fine you get when you're caught dodging the fare is legally not a fine but a punitive ticket price(straffavgift). If you're caught by the police dodging the fare (Sometimes they stand around trying to catch criminals or illegal immigrants) then you get an actual fine (ordningsbot) which is actually not covered by planka.nu and can show up on your permanent record.

      Essentially it's important to understand that Sweden makes an extremely clear distinction between those that have the authority to handle criminal matters and those who do not, the metro does not.

    35. Re: Public transit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your pretending that you or the government know which uses less resources. Both you and the government don't.

      How do you know they don't? How do you know they can't figure it out?

    36. Re: Public transit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Unless you are talking about a resource like "space on a road", where is obvious which method creates less traffic for moving people, and the open market doesn't respond as well to people's time as it does to a monetary cost like a toll.

    37. Re:Public transit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      "And I can't see what makes you think it is illegal for a company to keep track of who they found cheating on them."

      That's because it's regulated by law - it is generally speaking unlawful to keep any kind of register of identifiable people without their consent (which fare dodgers are unlikely to give), even churches have run afoul of this (just to shock you americans who love churches), and the exceptions there of are regulated by the Data Inspection Board for privacy reasons.

      And it's not a criminal offense to dodge the fare because the nominal amount of money involved (or not involved in this case) does not pass the relevant threshold.

    38. Re:Public transit by CRCulver · · Score: 1

      I suspect that would be impossible from a legal standpoint since that would require a database of offenders and there are extremely strict regulations on such a thing.

      I don't know about Sweden, but over here in Helsinki, the fine is treated as a debt. If you don't pay it, it goes on your public credit report. So, it is obvious that the public transportation authority (and the credit reporting agency) have a record of repeat offenders and could easily demand high fines for consecutive violations.

    39. Re:Public transit by CRCulver · · Score: 2

      Tallinn only made the public transportation system free for residents. There continue to be ticket inspectors moving around checking if people are local residents. Foreigners visiting Tallinn and using the system without buying a ticket are fined. I see this often because, as a foreigner, I often take one of Tallinn's longest trans-city bus routes and have been challenged by inspectors on several occassions since the new rules came in.

      Were Stockholm to make public transportation free, it would probably only be for locals, as the city attracts a much larger amount of tourists than Tallinn and the Swedes would want to take advantage of those relatively affluent people with money to spend in order to subsidize the system for the locals.

    40. Re:Public transit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So if they can't enforce a fine, then what happens if you don't pay the straffavgift? It sounds like they don't have any authority to actually run things. While I appreciate the enforcement of privacy, does that also apply to businesses? Are they not allowed to keep track of who shop-lifted or passed bad forms of payment or otherwise caused problems and they don't want to let into their business again?

    41. Re: Public transit by Arker · · Score: 1

      School choice is considered a far-right agenda here. Our left-wing has no idea how much they worship Prussian proto-fascists.

      --
      =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
      Friends don't let friends enable ecmascript.
    42. Re: Public transit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You assuming governments are as dumb as you is your first mistake.
      These things are trivial to work out for educated types.

    43. Re:Public transit by spire3661 · · Score: 1

      This is a concept that will fly right over most Americans heads. We REGULARLY turn misdemeanors into felonies if you break the same misdemeanor law twice. Proportionality is shouted down.

      --
      Good-bye
    44. Re:Public transit by Zironic · · Score: 1

      The way it works in Sweden is that when you receive an invoice (Such as the punitive fee from not having a ticket) you have 30 days to pay before it is considered a debt. At that point you still have some amount of time, iirc over a month before the debt becomes an unpaid debt that is recorded by the state to be collected.

      The records of all these things are regulated by law and as generally applies to all databases that contain identifiable information the database is only allowed to be used for the its intended purpose, for instance using your debt database to send advertisements would be illegal.

    45. Re: Public transit by Strider- · · Score: 3, Insightful

      So people who drive cars, and therefore use public transportation less or not at all, should pay more so that people who do use the system pay less?

      Well, the drivers get the very real benefit of fewer vehicles on the roads. Even if we ignore Stockholm's (very good) subway system, a bus carrying 40 passengers probably means 15+ cars that are not on the road.

      --
      ...si hoc legere nimium eruditionis habes...
    46. Re:Public transit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bork bork bork!

    47. Re:Public transit by abhi_beckert · · Score: 1

      Since $15 per month is apparently enough to cover a $180 fine, they must be going on the assumption fare dodgers will be caught less than once per year.

    48. Re:Public transit by dkf · · Score: 1

      So if they can't enforce a fine, then what happens if you don't pay the straffavgift?

      The most likely option would be for the transit authority to take the person to civil court, seeking to get a debt paid. While the Swedish legal system is not the same as a common law one, there are still courts that deal with private disputes where this sort of thing could be resolved. (I don't know whether it would count as a contract dispute or something else; IANASwedishL.)

      --
      "Little does he know, but there is no 'I' in 'Idiot'!"
    49. Re:Public transit by abhi_beckert · · Score: 1

      So if they can't enforce a fine, then what happens if you don't pay the straffavgift? It sounds like they don't have any authority to actually run things. While I appreciate the enforcement of privacy, does that also apply to businesses? Are they not allowed to keep track of who shop-lifted or passed bad forms of payment or otherwise caused problems and they don't want to let into their business again?

      I don't know about Sweden but in most countries any business can refuse to server any customer for whatever reason they want, so long as it isn't race or gender or something discriminatory.

      Here in Australia shoplifting will probably just get you kicked out of the store and told never to come back. The reason is the person doing the shoplifting (often a kid) might simply tell the cops that they're innocent. From then on the store will have to either drop their accusation or take it to court, which involves sending many thousands of dollars to your legal team, for no gain at all. You already recovered the stolen merchandise, so are not eligible for any compensation.

      Unless they're a repeat offender, a judge will probably let them off with a slap on the wrist. Sending some poor kid who doesn't no better into the prison system over a stolen CD is a bad idea —inevitably that will lead them to commit more serious crimes later in life.

    50. Re:Public transit by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      I suspect that would be impossible from a legal standpoint

      Really? Better tell the Belgians, because it's double on the second offense.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    51. Re: Public transit by BasilBrush · · Score: 3, Informative

      So people who drive cars, and therefore use public transportation less or not at all, should pay more so that people who do use the system pay less?

      Absolutely! That's how you tackle congestion. The more people that use cheap public transport the less cars there are on the road.

      Did you know that the American cities that used to have good public tram systems lost them because the automobile industry bought them out and scrapped them, so people had no choice but to buy a car. That misdeed needs undoing.

    52. Re: Public transit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So people who drive cars, and therefore use public transportation less or not at all, should pay more so that people who do use the system pay less?

      Yes, in the US just look at Obamacare.

    53. Re: Public transit by Skuld-Chan · · Score: 1

      Why not? The infrastructure in place to keep cars rolling along costs more than public transit - and in America at least the cost is mostly footed by the county/state and federal government.

      If you think vehicle and gas taxes cover it - your fooling yourself.

    54. Re:Public transit by Zironic · · Score: 1

      I'm confused to as why you think the laws of Belgium have any bearing on what is legal in Sweden.

    55. Re:Public transit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In both Sweden and Finland most stores have signs stating that they always report shoplifting to the police. I don't know if it's true or not or what the consequences are for those who're caught but since they post them to deter shoplifting, I guess there must be some, at least.

    56. Re:Public transit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In Sweden you can not deny service without exposing yourself to various legal problems (in the case of shoplifters stores have to rely on restraining orders afaik), which is one reason why stores rather kick out people than involving authorites (the other reason being that there are various thresholds regarding the value of the items for to determine the seriousness of the crime, and at the lower levels it is mostly a waste of everyone's time). Even repeat offenders are unlikely to ever see a judge, not because they are never arrested because some times the police will stake out those who steal expensive items such as clothes and raid their "hide-out" and then they'll get charged for the full amount of the total worth - not just what they stole at one occasion, however most cases are handled through what I suppose could be likened to plea-bargins - again to avoid wasting time, even criminals are economical that way if they are caught red handed.

      Apart from that it seems pretty similar (although I'm not a lawyer, just moderately educated).

    57. Re:Public transit by richlv · · Score: 1

      yeah, but the ones participating in the reported scheme are locals anyway :)

      --
      Rich
    58. Re:Public transit by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

      You seem to be unaware that laws vary by country.

    59. Re:Public transit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's not a fine, it's an invoice. Don't pay? Then it's handed over to a debt collector (whom don't know and don't care about anything else than you needing to make a payment (btw, is it normal where you are for everyone to do their own debt collection as you thought they was unable to enforce the collection?). Yes it applies to all businesses. No they are not, or well rather: they can't have a register and say distribute it to all stores in a chain - but individual store managers are free to take note of bothersome individual and apply for a restraining order. And if granted, violating the restraining order is a felony and has much harsher penalties than what yet another shoplifting would have.

    60. Re:Public transit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Similar in Germany. The transport agency can only issue punitive tickets but if you refuse to pay this ticket or get caught three times in a year they are going to press criminal charges. BTW fare dodging is punishable by fine or prison up to one year.

    61. Re: Public transit by BasilBrush · · Score: 2

      School choice is pointless. Every parent wants the same thing - the best education for their child. A choice of bad schools is no choice at all, and a choice of good schools is irrelevant.

      If there are some schools and some bad schools: Having everyone pick the good school in an area and a random set of them being successful again is no choice. The effort should be spent on bringing the bad schools up to scratch, or closing them. Not going through some pointless choice system.

      School choice is on the right wing agenda, because it's stupid and pointless. Like every other item on the right wing agenda.

    62. Re: Public transit by bpkiwi · · Score: 1

      Yes, because the people using the public transport are decreasing the congestion on the roads, therefore making it possible to actually drive if you need to / choose to. Alternatively, we could build more roads - but that would also involve increasing tax to cover the construction and maintenance costs. So basically, subsidizing public transport doesn't cost more - and you get public transport that you can use if you ever need it.

    63. Re:Public transit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Diesel" is not Swedish for "gasoline". Genuine question: have you had any education at all?

    64. Re: Public transit by Arker · · Score: 0

      "School choice is pointless. Every parent wants the same thing - the best education for their child."

      But nonetheless you abstract too much when you abstract away the differences between each child.

      One of my Swedish hosts had 3 children. Two went to one school (top-ranked for arts; music and drama - the goals that two of her children had) while one went to another (a more hard-science oriented place because that was where his goals lay.) That choice was not pointless. Not at all.

      "A choice of bad schools is no choice at all, and a choice of good schools is irrelevant."

      The first part is closer to truth but neither are actually true. Again, you are abstracting too much. You may have a choice of poor schools but one may still be a better choice for a particular child than another.

      "The effort should be spent on bringing the bad schools up to scratch, or closing them."

      You act as if all schools were either good or bad and all in one class were equivalent to each other. That's just not true, no matter how right it sounds after over-simplifying the problem.

      --
      =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
      Friends don't let friends enable ecmascript.
    65. Re:Public transit by sten+ben · · Score: 1

      So if they can't enforce a fine, then what happens if you don't pay the straffavgift?

      I doubt that it would end up in court. There is an agency called "Kronofogdemyndigheten" (Swedish Enforcement Authority) who's responsibility it is to collect debts no one has been able to collect. If you have an unpaid debt that end up with them you get something called "betalningsanmärkning" (erm... note of payment default perhaps). Something no-one in Sweden wants as it makes it pretty much impossible to get loans, telephone contracts, bank accounts, etc, etc for five years. It's a pretty strong incentive to pay your debts and bills.

      It sounds like they don't have any authority to actually run things. While I appreciate the enforcement of privacy, does that also apply to businesses? Are they not allowed to keep track of who shop-lifted or passed bad forms of payment or otherwise...

      Storing personal information in Sweden is thoroughly regulated with progressively tougher demands depending on the sensitivity of the information. It's doubtful you would be allowed to store any information about the behaviour of a person in a personally identifiable manner. Companies that give credits are allowed to store information about the payment history of individuals, but only for a limited time and with strict requirements on how that data can be used and shared.

      ...caused problems and they don't want to let into their business again?

      You are not yourself allowed to hinder or detain someone unless they have commited a crime, only the Police or licenced security guards are allowed to do that. Which causes a bit of a headache for the company running the subway actually as their personell aren't allowed to hinder anyone from leaving the premises instead of showing their ticket without backup from the police or a guard (IIRC).

    66. Re: Public transit by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

      For sure it's simplifying. It's a post on an internet forum, not an essay. And of course there are children with different needs, and schools with specialisms. So, to take your music and drama example: the way to deal with that is for the school to choose the pupils with the best potential in those specialisms.

      Parental choice is again pointless. You might think your child's violin playing is exceptional, and make the choice for that music school. But your child shouldn't get that place ahead of some child that's an even better violinist.

      If it turns out that there aren't enough schools specialising in music and drama, then the constructive course of action is to set up more such schools (or repurpose existing ones.) Again, parental choice does nothing useful.

    67. Re: Public transit by Arker · · Score: 0

      "So, to take your music and drama example: the way to deal with that is for the school to choose the pupils with the best potential in those specialisms."

      I am not even sure what you are trying to say here. Schools do not normally get to pick their pupils, and what about getting good teachers in these specialties and giving them what they need to create the right environment?

      "Parental choice is again pointless. You might think your child's violin playing is exceptional, and make the choice for that music school. But your child shouldn't get that place ahead of some child that's an even better violinist."

      You may not be the best person to judge if your child's violin playing is exceptional, but still the best judge by far of whether or not he actually wants to pursue it. And guess what? That's far more important to his long-term success in the field anyway.

      "If it turns out that there aren't enough schools specialising in music and drama, then the constructive course of action is to set up more such schools (or repurpose existing ones.) Again, parental choice does nothing useful."

      Except that without parental choice you have no way to even know whether there are enough, or too many, schools of a particular type, or to do anything about it even if you did know!

      --
      =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
      Friends don't let friends enable ecmascript.
    68. Re: Public transit by lgw · · Score: 1

      What you describe is very much exactly socialism: valuing some abstract "public good" over the actual well-being of each individual. Giving each of us the freedom to choose the resource trade-offs that make us the most happy (trade-offs that will be different for each of us) is the antithesis of socialism, after all.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    69. Re: Public transit by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

      I am not even sure what you are trying to say here. Schools do not normally get to pick their pupils

      Schools selecting pupils is not that unusual. And for specialist schools such as those doing music and drama, it's the norm. If that's not true where you live, then appreciate that not everywhere in the world is like where you live.

      You may not be the best person to judge if your child's violin playing is exceptional, but still the best judge by far of whether or not he actually wants to pursue it.

      And so the parent with the child will decide whether to apply to the school that does the selecting.

      Except that without parental choice you have no way to even know whether there are enough, or too many, schools of a particular type, or to do anything about it even if you did know!

      Parental choice is not the only, nor even a very good, informational source.

    70. Re:Public transit by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      You and other idiot seem to be unaware that there's a thing called the EU, of which Belgium and Sweden are members. Things like data protection, privacy and "human rights" (along with the majority of laws) are set at that level.

      P.S. Pretty funny an American calling someone else out on the concept of "other countries". Ever even seen a passport, fatty?

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    71. Re:Public transit by j-beda · · Score: 1

      Charging a "nominal" amount (a quarter per ride or $10 per month) might discourage abuse of the system while still providing much of the benefits of a "free" system.

    72. Re:Public transit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The EU can set minimum requirements and each member country can set more stringent requirements for a lot of the laws. While the EU has some privacy laws, the amount of privacy required by law varies greatly across the EU because of some countries having stricter requirements.

    73. Re: Public transit by ediron2 · · Score: 1

      > a bus carrying 40 passengers probably means 15+ cars that are not on the road.

      In the US, 40 people on a bus probably means 35-40 cars not on the road.

    74. Re: Public transit by beelsebob · · Score: 1

      Uhhh, no, the uniquely high per-capita resource consumption of the USA being the demonstration of it.

    75. Re: Public transit by someoneOtherThanMe · · Score: 1

      40 kids on the bus means 80 cars not on the road.
      40 that would drive the kids to school, and the same 40 returning from driving kids to school.

    76. Re:Public transit by soccerisgod · · Score: 1

      It is a socialist country you know.

      I really wonder what you're smoking :)

      --
      If a train station is a place where a train stops, what's a workstation?
    77. Re: Public transit by Eunuchswear · · Score: 1

      So you feel that the USA is a "failed communists state" with no "open market"?

      --
      Watch this Heartland Institute video
    78. Re: Public transit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I do know. There are limited number of roads. Public transport is damn great for the private car users. They should pay, because they directly gain by saving gasoline and time because they don't have to sit in a huge gridlock for hours.

    79. Re: Public transit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Only if you make the false assumption that public transport use replaces car use. In practice, most urban public transport use is over short distances that would otherwise have been done on foot or on bike. More generally, the majority of people who use public transport frequently do not own a car.

    80. Re: Public transit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It probably means zero cars not on the road. Public transport rarely replaces car use.

    81. Re: Public transit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why not? The infrastructure in place to keep cars rolling along costs more than public transit

      That is simply not true. It may depend on the country, but most European countries spend much more on subsidising public transport used by a few percent of the population than on building and maintaining roads used by a large majority.

      If you think vehicle and gas taxes cover it - your fooling yourself.

      Only a small fraction of fuel, road and new vehicle taxes are spent on road construction and maintenance. Most of it goes towards other public expenditures.

    82. Re: Public transit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, they should. By driving a gas burning car, you are harming the world more than someone who takes mass transit. Hell, around here all of the buses run on natural gas, so they don't even pollute.

    83. Re:Public transit by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

      You and other idiot seem to be unaware that there's a thing called the EU, of which Belgium and Sweden are members. Things like data protection, privacy and "human rights" (along with the majority of laws) are set at that level.

      I live in the EU, and there is no law passed at that level. In those categories, the EU set minimum requirements, which local laws must deliver within their legislation. Which certainly doesn't mean what is legal in one country is legal in another.

      P.S. Pretty funny an American calling someone else out on the concept of "other countries".

      Another thing you are wrong about. I'm British.

      Calling other people idiots when you are the one that's doubly wrong just makes you a twat.

    84. Re: Public transit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thanks for the link, it is interesting to see that the U.S. is so different in that respect, although it is hardly suprprising giving the absense of public transport in most of the country and the extremely low fuel tax.

  4. In other parts of the world... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This is known as organized crime.

    1. Re:In other parts of the world... by Spritzer · · Score: 1

      You beat me to it.

    2. Re: In other parts of the world... by beelsebob · · Score: 1

      What has the government got to do with a private company, and some private individuals avoiding paying for the services they agreed to pay for?

    3. Re: In other parts of the world... by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Depends on whether public transport is actually privately run there or whether it's part of the public service offered by the town itself, funded (partly) with tax money. BIG difference there.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    4. Re:In other parts of the world... by mpe · · Score: 1

      This is known as organized crime. Depends who's doing. It can also be known as a "business plan" or "good business sense", etc.

    5. Re: In other parts of the world... by 0111+1110 · · Score: 1

      and some private individuals avoiding paying for the services they agreed to pay for?

      Agreed to pay for? Somehow I doubt the fare dodgers ever signed some kind of agreement to pay. Although I suppose I could be wrong. Do you have any evidence to back up that claim?

      --
      Quite an experience to live in fear, isn't it? That's what it is to be a slave.
    6. Re:In other parts of the world... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Except its not a crime, just a fine for not paying a fair.
      Good try though.

    7. Re: In other parts of the world... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I would say if the very act of riding is an "agree to pay".

    8. Re:In other parts of the world... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But how can it be organized crime if it is white, middle class, children?

    9. Re:In other parts of the world... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is known as organized crime.

      When my 4 year old demanded an answer, that's how I explained the existence of fire ants.

    10. Re:In other parts of the world... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Cosmo: "Hah. Don't kid yourself. It's not that organized."

      -Sneakers (1992)

    11. Re: In other parts of the world... by beelsebob · · Score: 1

      They rode on the public transit which was signed as costing money - that's the agreement to pay right there.

    12. Re:In other parts of the world... by felixrising · · Score: 1

      In the financial community, this is known as insurance.

    13. Re: In other parts of the world... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I know what you mean. I never sign anything saying I'm going to buy anything when I walk around a supermarket filling my cart. I don't know why the police get all upset when I just walk out with it!

    14. Re:In other parts of the world... by aralin · · Score: 1

      If the organization of the effort is a crime, the group insurance scheme can be easily changed into individualized betting scheme. I'll bet $15 on not being caught this month on 8:1 odds. If I am caught, I get $120 to pay the fine, if I am not caught, my $15 will be lost. Or you could simply self-insure like I did. Problem solved. Now it is not organized crime anymore :)

      The whole problem is that there is a very easy formula: fare - fine * chance of being caught

      If this formula is positive, you pay too much in fare. But the cost of the checks to to catch fare dodgers ultimately increases the fare too much. Increasing the fine beyond a certain limit lowers the amount actually collected, because people won't be able to pay the fine, which clearly would need to be 120/15 * 180 or $1440, which is too high for anyone to pay. It is a problem that most of the public transits face and it is not easy to solve.

      A lot of cities solve it by sharply reducing the fare for students, because they are the most likely demographic to cheat and to have highly reduced monthly/yearly passes. And they simply expect that for older people (>30) it is simply too embarrassing to be publicly caught, possibly in front of colleagues and business partners and the cost of the monthly pass is worth it to avoid the embarrassment.

      --
      If programs would be read like poetry, most programmers would be Vogons.
  5. Sounds like a sting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Get the fools to sign up and chip in money, or better, submit a request for reimbursement. Then you have a traceable money trail. to the culprit.

    Or perhaps it's a quick Ponzi scheme. If any of the idiots ever tries to file a suit on the basis of not getting reimbursed, what can they do? Take the case to court? At least in the US, you cannot make a contract to do an illegal act.

    1. Re:Sounds like a sting by Zironic · · Score: 1

      They've been doing this for the past 13 years, a bit long to run a sting don't you think?

  6. Scandinavia is different by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    Scandinavia is different. In Norway prisons are like hotels. Norway hired someone to be a friend for the convicted murderer who killed 79 people. The friend would visit him in jail and play chess with him.

    1. Re:Scandinavia is different by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      I wonder how you put this on your resume.

      "You were working at a jail for those years?"
      "Yeah, I was the buddy of a murderer"

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    2. Re:Scandinavia is different by Eunuchswear · · Score: 1

      Yeah, but they refused to upgrade his PS2 to a PS3, and didn't let him play FPSs.

      (PS I think that they're treating AB correctly - he's a pathetic little fuck and all those who go on about "punishment" are also pathetic little fucks).

      --
      Watch this Heartland Institute video
    3. Re:Scandinavia is different by Yoda222 · · Score: 1

      In most hotels (all of them, as far as I remember) where I have been, when I wanted to visit a friend, they just let me go out to see it. So I'm not sure why you compare the prison which hired people to visit someone inside to hotels.

    4. Re:Scandinavia is different by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

      Yes Scandinavia is different. It's civilised. Treating prisoner's responsibly is a civilised thing to do.

  7. hike up the fines by Chryana · · Score: 1

    According to TFA, the organization that pays of the fines is currently profitable because it rakes in twice the money as it pays off in fines. It seems simply raising the fines would quickly make that unprofitable.

    1. Re: hike up the fines by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Instead of increasing the fines, increased enforcement would have the desired effect: even catching the same scofflaws several times a month would deplete the pool of funds.

    2. Re:hike up the fines by NicBenjamin · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Since the fine is apparently equal to 12 months of fees to the organization, that implies people only get caught once every two years. As a turnstile jumper you'd actually be better off not being in the organization and putting that $15 a month into a bank account to pay the ticket.

      If the government put a couple extra cops on the ticket turnstile beat and doubled the amount of tickets you issued they'd only break even, and if they tripled the number of tickets the group'd start losing cash. If the average jumper starts getting caught every 8 months, that's 1.5 times a year, which means they pay fines of $270, and an insurer needs $22.50 a month in revenue to cover costs. The best strategy would probably be to double the fine and double enforcement on the train lines for a few months. Either option makes the group break even, and combined they'd mean the group has to double it's fee.

      Of course back in the real world the Swedish authorities could easily conclude this is just mischievous kids being mischievous, and therefore the group should not be forced out of business.

    3. Re:hike up the fines by Nemyst · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Nah, that'd also punish people who legitimately forgot their ticket or something along those lines. The much better idea is to increase repeat offender fines. If the first fine's only like $50, but the fifth is more like $500, those fare dodgers would very quickly go broke while normal people wouldn't be affected.

    4. Re: hike up the fines by Chryana · · Score: 1

      Indeed, but it would probably require to hire more security staff, which increases the costs of running public transit for everyone.

    5. Re:hike up the fines by Zironic · · Score: 2

      If they tried that the transport authority would go bankrupt within the month. They operate on near zero margin and theres no way they could find the money to double enforcement.

    6. Re:hike up the fines by Chryana · · Score: 1

      I like your idea, I agree it is better than mine. I'm not sure I buy the "forgotten ticket" line though. I admit my total ignorance of the public transit system in Sweden, but where I live, we are issued permanent tickets cards . My card is at all times in my wallet, and it can even be registered so that I can get back my monthly pass in case I lose my card.

    7. Re: hike up the fines by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I can't imagine you'd need to hold it up for long. It'd only take a few days for it to make a difference.

    8. Re:hike up the fines by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If an enforcement employee can't pay for themselves in terms of increased fare payments and fines, then the lost fares can't be too significant.

    9. Re:hike up the fines by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In Sweden if you forgot your ticket and get fined, you can take your ticket to the transport authority to have your ticket nullified. In other words, it doesn't matter if you forget the ticket.

    10. Re:hike up the fines by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It happens. I once tried to check in with my public transit pass, but there wasn't enough money on it, so I had to recharge it. After that I forgot to check in, probably because of a left over memory of the failed check in attempt.
      I only noticed something was wrong when the conductor told me in a stern voice that my pass wasn't checked in. But when he saw there was more than €100 on it, he smiled and let me off with a warning.

    11. Re:hike up the fines by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Its probably more like forgotten to renew the ticket. I'm not on a subscription ticket and sometimes I buy a new monthly ticket two or three days late. So far I've been lucky but here in my place the checks are very irregular, sometimes I don't get checked for three months and then three times the next week.

    12. Re: hike up the fines by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Instead of increasing the fines, increased enforcement would have the desired effect:

      Forget fines. Just hire a few vigilantes to beat the crap out of anyone who jumps over the turnstile.

    13. Re:hike up the fines by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wth?

      Stockholm had people sitting behind a desk by the turnstiles. They had people checking everyone got on before the train left. If you can't figure out how to catch 100% of turnstile jumpers with those resources you are just a bit dumb. Just catch everyone for 2 months and the jumping stops.

    14. Re:hike up the fines by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The "forgotten ticket" is BS.... just buy a ticket for that day and don't "forget" tomorrow. I like the escalating fines idea.

  8. Simple solution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Augment the fine of people getting caught to the point where the other side's monthly payment would be bigger than the cost of a monthly fare.

  9. You can't have services without paying for them. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    The mentality of these people, like those who dislike taxes, is that they deserve services from the government for free. They don't care about the specifics about how those services are funded. They just want free services.

    They should know that without funding the quality of services declines, and in some cases, services stop completely. Perhaps they do, and just don't care.

    In an ideal world I wish public transportation was free. But I know gasoline and spare tires and replacement tracks for the subways don't magically appear out of thin air, and I know that services depend on money from the riders to keep going.

    If these people really want to make lasting change, instead of being fare dodgers they should actually research how Swedish transportation is funded, and come up with viable, alternative methods of funding. But that's hard work, and these people are lazy bums.

  10. Not heroes by JavaBear · · Score: 5, Insightful

    These people are parasites, and leeches, whose evasion is helping to drive UP the cost for everybody else.
    Public transportation is en expensive service, mostly subsidized through taxes, these hypocritical parasites help make it that much more expensive for everybody else.

    I hope the Swedish authorities take an idea that was floated when the same was about to happen in Denmark.

    The fines the "organization" pay, are to be treated as taxable income.

    1. Re:Not heroes by Zironic · · Score: 1

      Eh, at 3% of the fares as estimated by the transit authority they're a negliable amount of the commuters and probably cost vastly less then the measures put in place to attempt to 'stop' them.

      Besides as noted in the article evasion itself is not the point, they're a semi-political movement that thinks that public transport should be 100% public funded rather then as is 50% which is why they're against false tickets.

    2. Re:Not heroes by rasmusbr · · Score: 1

      These people are parasites, and leeches, whose evasion is helping to drive UP the cost for everybody else.
      Public transportation is en expensive service, mostly subsidized through taxes, these hypocritical parasites help make it that much more expensive for everybody else.

      I hope the Swedish authorities take an idea that was floated when the same was about to happen in Denmark.

      The fines the "organization" pay, are to be treated as taxable income.

      And give them free advertisement in the form of news coverage and other attention?

      Planka.nu state that they have 600 members in the Stockholm metro area. That's about 0.03% of the population and perhaps 0.1% of daily transit travelers. They also state that all of their surplus revenue goes towards flyers and stickers and other means of spreading the word. Advertisement is hard, especially when you're barred from using billboards and other conventional outlets.

    3. Re:Not heroes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Easier just to make it so if you get caught enough times you don't just pay a fine, you go to jail.

    4. Re:Not heroes by Zironic · · Score: 1

      I imagine that most people in the Stockholm metro area know about Planka and many of them support them philosophically. The reason their members are so few is because it's a hassle to always have to bypass the entrence and it can be kinda embarrasing to get caught.

    5. Re:Not heroes by NicBenjamin · · Score: 1

      Keep in mind three things:

      1) According to the article this is 3% of fares.

      2) According to the article most of the group members are High School Age.

      3) This is Sweden. Joining a Union devoted to publicly pressuring the government to reduce fares is precisely the kind of thing every patriotic Swede wants his 16-year-old doing, because a lot of things a rebellious 16-year-old considers doing are much worse for society then free subway rides.

    6. Re:Not heroes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Make non taxpayers pay, the problem is, these systems are funded by TAX PAYERS, and then to use them, TAX PAYERS HAVE TO PAY AGAIN, wheras, a NON TAX PAYER (TOURIST Et al.) ONlY PAY ONCE, FOR A TICKET. A tax payer pays TWICE, in TAXES and TICKETS.

      Make tourists pay more, tax payers pay less.

    7. Re:Not heroes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Besides as noted in the article evasion itself is not the point, they're a semi-political movement that thinks that public transport should be 100% public funded rather then as is 50% which is why they're against false tickets.

      The core of planka.nu might be a semi-political movement, but most members are not, at least not believing in how politics work in a democracy. They are just freeloaders wanting to be able to travel for free in the public transit, not caring how it works or who pays.

      Having said that, even the core of planka.nu does very little towards reaching the goal of a totally publicly funded public transit, they mostly use stickers to illegally promote their website and not much more to change public opinion or doing anything that gets them closer to their goal.

      As for the "turnstile jumpers", I have stopped everyone trying to sneak through the gates by pressing themselves up against my back. I just stopped dead in my tracks, turned around shoving them back and told them to stop using me as a free entry pass and that I didn't enjoy some unknown person squeezing up close to me. Some got aggressive, but I didn't back down and eventually they all turned back and waited for another "victim". Of course they didn't have to wait long for another person to come along, one with a little less spine. If more people were opposing these practices this wouldn't be a problem, but Swedes are terribly scared of conflict, so it is relatively easy for them to continue. With current laws only security guards can do something IF they catch them red-handed, the civil employees cannot do much.

      I pay my taxes, I pay for my public transit pass and I would expect every other upright citizen to do the same. These guys have no real excuse, everyone I have come across have better label clothes than I and a more expensive phone than I. It is pure egoism and nothing else.

    8. Re:Not heroes by SharpFang · · Score: 1

      There's a problem with this claim. Similarly to file-sharers, they don't *actually* cost the transport companies any money.

      1. It assumes they would pay if not the scheme. It doesn't assume they would take alternate transport medium.

      2. It assumes all the income is from the tickets. It disregards both tax-funded subsidies (from 'freeloaders' tax money) and the punitive charges income (no matter if paid by given freeloader alone or from 'insurance')

      3. It assumes cost scales linearly with the number of passengers.

      Let me expand on that. The cost of operating a line is mostly a fixed value - amortization of the bus, salary of the driver, costs of operating the infrastructure. Fuel is only a minor part, and even then, then, take bus weight of 10 tons, passenger weight of 100kg, assuming (falsely) the fuel use increases linearly with number of passengers, the difference in cost between driving an empty bus and one with 1 freeloader would be 1%.

      In other words, each freeloader in the absolutely worst case scenario adds 1% to the cost of operating a line. In more realistic scenario, this number will be over an order of magnitude smaller.

      As effect - yes, the freeloaders do increase the costs for others. Assuming 10 of them per ride - by about 1%.

      And one thing more. If they can't break even on the punitive charges, that means the controls are too infrequent. If $15/month suffices to cover $180/capture, that means one control per 14 months. Seriously? Make the average 1/month (still very little with people riding daily) and the 'insurance' will need to rise to $180/month. With $150/monthly pass, the problem will vanish.

      --
      45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
    9. Re:Not heroes by Zironic · · Score: 1

      Even if they catch them red-handed, the security guards only have the authority to evict them from the station, they don't have the authority to detain them.

      Personally I used to jump the turnstiles when I was a kid partly because the free pass we got as high school students only worked daytime and the tickets are really expensive when you're that age and partly because it's fun jumping over them. It seems to me the only thing SL gained by upgrading to these new machines is that now the ordinary commuters get bothered.

    10. Re:Not heroes by 0111+1110 · · Score: 1

      These people are parasites, and leeches, whose evasion is helping to drive UP the cost for everybody else.

      Although you call them names you haven't offered any sort of moral argument as to why what they are doing is wrong. How exactly do they raise costs?

      --
      Quite an experience to live in fear, isn't it? That's what it is to be a slave.
    11. Re:Not heroes by SuperBanana · · Score: 2

      Public transportation is en expensive service, mostly subsidized through taxes, these hypocritical parasites help make it that much more expensive for everybody else.

      Until you start paying a toll box at the end of your driveway, stop bitching about people fare-evading or the cost of public transit projects.

      If it's "mostly subsidized through taxes", then why are there (rather significant) fares, and why is fare evasion such a massive issue? It's either "public" or it isn't, and it's either "mostly subsidized" or it isn't. In my city, a monthly bus+subway pass costs $70/month. That's cheaper than owning a car, but not by much, and the system is, among other things, clearly laid out to isolate rich neighborhoods from poor ones, and service ends around midnight. It's also hobbled significantly by the massive amount of traffic, namely all the selfish assholes sitting in their cars, alone, clogging up the streets so the busses, which take up about 3-4 cars worth of space, hold 30-60 people.

      Nevermind that in many countries - the US for example - public transit spending is a fraction of the spending on roads (and airports), and drivers do not even remotely come close to paying for their share of the maintenance costs of roads, just like airlines and their passengers do not even remotely come close to paying for airports and related infrastructure. In my particular state, the various fees and taxes collected from drivers equates to about a third of the total cost of our roads.

      It's particularly infuriating since those road costs are predominantly out in rural areas, where few people use them. Those rural areas tend to be full of "fiscal conservatives" who don't like "handouts." Their elected representatives consistently vote down public transit projects, declaring them a "waste." The cities are the economic engines, generating the most tax revenue. They're also the most efficient places to live, in terms of utilities and transportation. And the places which most desperately need, and benefit from, solid public transit.

    12. Re:Not heroes by zwei2stein · · Score: 1

      Once fixed cost line has enough passengers to cover its costs, it does not mean that it has to be pure profit.

      Usually, public transport company mandate is to provide transport first. Any extra gains would to to establishing new lines (to provide better connections, new connections or to just shift loads) or increasing amount of vehicles on line for less overcrowding.

      Each freeloader may add little cost to operating line he is riding on, but fare he pays could also go to improving service for others.

      This is why public transport can be pricey - you pay for late night buses, buses to less populated neighborhoods, more buses during rush hour...

      --
      -- Technology for the sake of technology is as pathetic as eschewing technology because it's technology.
    13. Re:Not heroes by zwei2stein · · Score: 1

      Lets imagine there was actually huge amount of them - 90% of passengers. Just to make very obvious to see.

      That means that company has 90% less revenue to operate with and operate costs.

      They could cancel enough lines to stay in positive numbers. Now the cost for everyone is that service is way worse.

      They could raise up fare. Paying 10 times the fare is quire a cost raise for paying people.

      Or they could lobby local government for tax subsidies. That would come in greater taxes or tax money missing elsewhere. Raised costs for everyone, even people not using public transport.

      Of course, company could just shut down. Id say that is quite a cost.

      --
      -- Technology for the sake of technology is as pathetic as eschewing technology because it's technology.
    14. Re:Not heroes by rhodium_mir · · Score: 0

      Enjoying your vodka this morning comrade Roman?

      --
      You can't spell "oneiromancy" without "roman".
    15. Re:Not heroes by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

      These guys have no real excuse, everyone I have come across have better label clothes than I and a more expensive phone than I. It is pure egoism and nothing else.

      You are either saying that very poor people don't jump the turnstile, or that you are the worst dressed person in the city.

    16. Re:Not heroes by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

      Similarly to file-sharers, they don't *actually* cost the transport companies any money.

      That's a very good point. And it's notable that on slashdot file sharer's are generally supported rather than condemned. Quite the opposite to the reaction here. I guess the slashdot right-wingers only oppose freeloading that they don't personally benefit from.

    17. Re:Not heroes by IndieRafael · · Score: 1

      I agree. It's wrong to leech. In 2001, I boarded a tram in Amsterdam. I went to validate my ticket in the machine, but a Dutch guy stopped me and conveyed that a lot of people never paid unless they saw a fare inspector board. I went along because he was trying to do me a favor. But it felt wrong. Somehow public transit (and other government services) must be paid for. To allow this kind of organization is a big mistake. It's also wrong to tolerate this organized behavior among teenagers. Yes, I pay my fair share of taxes, too, even though I feel like a fool when I read that General Electric does not. Civilization requires each of us to do our part.

    18. Re:Not heroes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In Auckland, New Zealand, where I live, they issued a contract for an electronic ticketing project. That project has now cost more than 15 years of operation of the public transport system, and is being paid for out of my rates.

      It would have been cheaper for them to dispense with fares altogether than what they ended up with. I have heard that an even more massive disaster happened in Sydney and Melbourne, Australia.

      Of course, it's not at all reasonable that an eticket system should cost so much, it's just one of a long line of grafts where our corrupt politicos have issued inflated contracts for their own personal gain.

    19. Re:Not heroes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's particularly infuriating since those road costs are predominantly out in rural areas, where few people use them. Those rural areas tend to be full of "fiscal conservatives" who don't like "handouts."

      And in a country with corn subsidies, biogas subsidies, sugar subsidies, farm small holding subsidies, etc.

      I live in NZ, one of the few civilised countries in the world without agriculture subsidies (farmers still get the benefit of subsidised roads), in a country that most Americans would call socialist, and the many farmers I know (I run a rural wireless ISP0 are generally quite supportive of social welfare. I suppose it comes from an understanding that the rural towns and villages couldn't exist without welfare recipients, and the farmers lives would be significantly diminished if there were not local towns and villages.

    20. Re:Not heroes by DerekLyons · · Score: 1

      If it's "mostly subsidized through taxes", then why are there (rather significant) fares

      Are you a moron, or just stupid? The fares cover the parts that aren't subsidized.

    21. Re:Not heroes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You sure aren't economy genius. London has super easy and very cheap public transport. London has museums with FREE entrance. I travelled to London because of these two factors. I left hundreds of pounds to the areas hotels and restaurants. Without cheap and easy public ttransportation and free museums I'd have gone someplace else. With my money. Yes, I tried to be as cheap as possible. The same amount of touristy things would have been at least 4 times more expensive somewhere else.

      Offer tourists very cheap unlimited 3 day passes, or just make the whole system free. You can get rid of the gates, and people operating the gates that way. And the billing system. And the IT systems behind that. People might use more public transport which lessens the traffic. Which means less roadwear and maintanance. If people move around more that means more customers for businesses.

    22. Re:Not heroes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is not about London.

      Taxes are HIGHER in Scandinavia than in London.

      If you want tax free holidays, you can claim your tax refund at your departure using the standardTax Refund procedure when leaving the EU.

    23. Re:Not heroes by BitZtream · · Score: 1

      Yea, but teaching a 16 year old that breaking the law is perfectly acceptable because 'he doesn't want to pay' is a pretty dick thing to do.

      If you don't like the fairs, stealing a ride isn't the solution. Don't ride. Surely if the fees are ridiculous, someone else can provide you with transportation for a lower price while providing the same level of service ... RIGHT?

      --
      Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
    24. Re:Not heroes by dave420 · · Score: 1

      Did you purposely not listen to anything anyone's said, or the contents of the article? It's a political protest group who thinks that public transport should be free. They're not doing this because "[they] don't want to pay", but because they are trying to send a message. So yes, many parents think it's fine for their children to break a "law" (actually a regulation) which at most causes a penalty fare to be issued, in order to improve society as a whole (as they see it). Them just not using public transport does nothing to fix the perceived problems. And, furthermore, just because no-one might be able to run a commercial operation of the same quality with lower fares does not mean that the fares are acceptable. The value of public services can not be measured solely by their own bottom line, as their benefits reach far into other areas of society, making such measurements downright inaccurate and woefully misleading.

    25. Re:Not heroes by dave420 · · Score: 1

      No - the taxpayers pay once for the benefits (direct or indirect) their city receives from having decent public transport, then when they buy a ticket, they pay again to actually use it for themselves. If they were buying a monthly ticket with their taxes every month, then being forced to buy the ticket again, you'd have a point. But they're not. So you don't.

    26. Re:Not heroes by dave420 · · Score: 1

      1. The company can't just shut down, as it's government-owned and is there to provide a public service.

      2. The company already receives 50% of its money from the government, so in your bizarro land they'd only lose 45% of their money, not 90%.

      They actually want the government to pay more money to the system to make it free for everyone. It's a political movement trying to achieve that goal. Did you read the article? Of course not.

    27. Re:Not heroes by dave420 · · Score: 1

      But these people don't want people to have to pay for public transport, the same as you don't pay to walk down the sidewalk|pavement. So no, your "somehow" doesn't magically convey some immutable truth inherent to the universe. Some places have free public transport, and these folks want it too. Of course taxes will cover it, but as the city benefits massively from its citizens being able to travel around freely, it might be beneficial. Luckily the people who think about these things don't just make up policy based on gut feeling.

  11. In the US the people running the organization by Dereck1701 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Because the US "justice" system is such a shining example for the world. Threatening college students with decades of prison for "stealing" public research papers. Approving no-knock warrants resulting in hundreds if not thousands of innocent deaths. Militarization of police forces and the use of SWAT teams for even the most benign crimes. Crushing people pirating a few songs/movies with hundreds of thousands of dollars in fines. Yes, the rest of the world would do well to emulate us.

  12. Why bother to pay the membership fee? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If they were truly deadbeats and believed fees are optional or too high, they would also scoff at paying the absurd $15 monthly fee to the group, because that should be free as well.

    It's like forming an "Apathy Anonymous" group and expecting everyone to show up for the weekly meetings.

  13. Transit is cheap ... by MacTO · · Score: 1

    At $120/month for a pass, you're probably paying less to use transit than you would pay for gasoline. On top of that, you don't have the expense of purchasing and maintaining a car, insurance, or parking.

    On top of that, people who cannot drive or cannot afford to drive usually have access to cheaper bus passes. Those who live in walkable or bikeable communities have the choice of paying a single fare when they need the service, rather than having to deal with the full expense of car ownership for the few times that you do need a car. (Well, I suppose there are taxies and rentals -- but those aren't cheap either.)

    1. Re:Transit is cheap ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Big cities like Stockholm are probably different, but here in Lund the bus ticket just for Lund city is just below $70/month.
      You get over 30l of gasoline for that, which in my case is good for almost 600 km, which translates to 60 days of driving to work.
      In addition, I save money every day I take the bike, which I don't if I go by bus (paying for single tickets is too expensive to be a real consideration). In addition, travel time by car is 8 minutes, by bike 15 minutes and by bus 30 - 50 minutes since I have to switch busses and still walk quite a bit (during the day, in the late evening or early weekends going by bus becomes walking, 50 minutes).
      In June and July there are even half as many busses going, which will increase travel times further.
      Prices btw. are after public transport has been subsidized with about 50%.
      I actually like taking public transport however a lot of people have the same experience as me: Even half of the real price is 2x the gasoline cost (admittedly, assumes that you want or have a car anyway) and it's a huge waste of time. A horrible deal in other words.

    2. Re:Transit is cheap ... by NicBenjamin · · Score: 1

      According to the article most of the group's members are under the age of 18. In the unlikely event mom bought them a car, instead of simply insisting they bike everywhere, they would not be paying any of the bills.

      And let's be honest here, if you're under-18 in Sweden this is an incredibly patriotic form of teenage rebellion. You've joined a collective, which responsibly manages it's finances (it turns a fucking profit!), and has the political goal of increasing equality by reducing subway fares poor people pay and increasing taxes rich people pay.

      I strongly suspect the PM could crush this little group with a fairly minimal effort (ie: lend the transit system 200 cops for three months and fine the shit out of fare-dodgers, and then leave a couple dozen cops with the transit authority permanently), and he doesn't because he's got three kids himself.

    3. Re:Transit is cheap ... by Zironic · · Score: 1

      The PM couldn't because that would be highly illegal. The way the Swedish goverment is set up the ministers are not allowed to make executive decisions, they are only allowed to make policy decisions that are then executed by the public servants.

      You're also probably more correct then you are aware. Planka.nu as an organisation actually recieves state support as the Swedish state supports political organisations in general.

    4. Re:Transit is cheap ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Shhhh.

      Don't bring up the metrics. Or our transit system will just figure out a way to fsck over drivers. One measure which some people find important is time spent getting from points A to B. Public transportation just can't compete (as you pointed out), so people who's time is worth more than $0/hr avoid it*. The bureaucratic response is just to screw up car traffic, trying to bring it down to transit performance levels.

      *A side effect of this is that the remaining rider demographic is made up of people who don't mind hobos playing pocket pool while standing in front of them in the bus aisle. Those that do have another reason not to ride, driving the ridership further down the social scale.

    5. Re:Transit is cheap ... by DaveV1.0 · · Score: 1

      So, in your world people should get free access to a non-essential service because they either can't or won't make enough money to pay for said non-essential service.

      And, if you are going to claim it is essential, then you should read your own post where they can bike everywhere. And, they can walk if needed.

      --
      There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
    6. Re:Transit is cheap ... by NicBenjamin · · Score: 1

      Dude,

      This is reality. Should don't mean squat.

      What does mean squat is that people generally let teenagers get away with childish BS they would not tolerate in 40-something stockbrokers, and most of the fare-dodgers are teenagers.

    7. Re:Transit is cheap ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, for under 18s, the price is only 74USD.

      It's an incredible deal - covering the excellent subway as well as buses, trams and boats.

      And there's a summer pass which is around 4 months for the price of 3.

    8. Re:Transit is cheap ... by ruir · · Score: 1

      You are so right. Bringing down transit performance levels and making it costly to park anywhere in the city. Some areas you know you dont pay, but then you are back to the basic problem of leaving the car there, and getting in the underground. Back in here, they already managed to close *effectively* 2 or 3 main access points to the city, and are jacking up the prices of parking.

  14. Easy to fix by WhiteZook · · Score: 5, Interesting
    1. 1. The authorities should sign up their own staff, and issue them fake fines (1-2 per month).
    2. 2. Send the fake fines to Planka.nu
    3. 3. Collect underpants
    4. 4. Get reimbursed for hundreds of dollars, while only paying $15 a month: profit!
    1. Re:Easy to fix by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      1. 1. The authorities should sign up their own staff, and issue them fake fines (1-2 per month).
      2. 2. Send the fake fines to Planka.nu
      3. 3. Collect underpants
      4. 4. Get reimbursed for hundreds of dollars, while only paying $15 a month: profit!

      I like it - it's an interesting idea, and the kind of lateral thinking a good programmer can exhibit.

    2. Re:Easy to fix by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, exactly. Two can play this game.

    3. Re:Easy to fix by NicBenjamin · · Score: 1

      That's more clever then my proposal of 200 cops writing tickets, but it's got the disadvantage that the group would probably figure out what was going on quite quickly, and throw the staff out. If they're really keeping halof the revenue they earn as profit then they've got a cushion, so clever moves they can counter by being more clever aren't a long-term solution.

      Moreover it ignores the fact that most members of this groups aren't 40-something stockbrokers, they're High School kids.

      Can you think of any form of teenage rebellion more Swedish then creating a non-profit union/insurer-type organization specifically to protest that taxes on the rich should be raised by dodging mass transit fares?

    4. Re:Easy to fix by WhiteZook · · Score: 1

      Every time they throw somebody out, sign up somebody else. Use fake credentials if you have to, or sign up the staff's teenage kids.

    5. Re:Easy to fix by Zironic · · Score: 2

      Committing crimes in order to deal with freeriders is not a particularly good career move in Sweden.

    6. Re:Easy to fix by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This plan has a legal and moral flaw, though: officials lying to citizens (albeit for the "good" of the people overall). In my nation, at least, officials are legally prohibited from lying to citizens.
      Wait, no, I think I have that backward; citizens are legally prohibited from lying to officials.

      Sounds like your plan is fine!

    7. Re:Easy to fix by Sanians · · Score: 1

      ...or just turn their own customers against them. Presumably these people require some sort of proof of having paid the fine before they'll reimburse people. Just offer that proof to anyone who asks for it whether they've paid the fine or not. People who don't pay for the trains probably also have no issues with occasionally getting a free $150 from the people insuring them against their $150 fines.

    8. Re:Easy to fix by NilleKopparmynt · · Score: 4, Interesting

      That is a very good idea! But as a person who travels using the Stockholm public transport every day I must add that the problem is far bigger than just "planka.nu". It is effectively free to use the public transport in Stockholm. I see at least five different ways people avoid paying. 1. Planka.nu who simply says that they are not going to pay and know that the lonely conductor (on the trams) is not going to do anything. 2. Middle eastern immigrants in groups that just says fuck off! 3. Swedes that comes with strange excuses like "oh, i forgot but I am just going one station". 4. Nervous Swedes that jumps in and out of the tram depending on where the conductor is. 5. Immigrants who just shake their head when the ticket checker arrives.

      I have traveled with the tram to and from work in Stockholm for almost three years now and I have so far yet to see the first fine handed out. The problem with this is that people like me who pay properly are such fucking losers. I assume that the economic reality will catch up with this sooner or later.

      Sweden is full of idiots like this. The worst organization is not "planka.nu" but "allt åt alla" (everything to everyone). They think that all the tax money collected should be handed out to anyone who needs money. It is obvious that they aim to receive money and have no ambition to contribute. Basically a modern version of a cargo cult

      The great Swedish welfare state is dead. We do not have a working military anymore which makes even the Estonian president to complain. The healthcare is the same. It exists but not for everyone no matter how much tax you pay. Sweden has the fewest hospital beds per 1000 people in Europe. A 27 year old Swede can look forward to 40% of the salary as a pension. A Greek 120%. The School is falling in the PISA statistics. All can be found in different OECD reports.

      I am soon emigrating. I am not paying anymore.

    9. Re:Easy to fix by dkf · · Score: 2

      A 27 year old Swede can look forward to 40% of the salary as a pension. A Greek 120%.

      You are aware that that is one of the main reasons that Greece was so thoroughly fucked by the financial crisis? One of the main reasons why such a large proportion of Greeks had no jobs at all for years? 40% feels low, sure, but 120% is absurdly high. (The only way 120% could work is by artificially depressing salaries across the whole population and getting the taxes in from entirely different mechanisms. You'd get 120%, but it would be 120% of much less...)

      --
      "Little does he know, but there is no 'I' in 'Idiot'!"
    10. Re:Easy to fix by Zironic · · Score: 1

      The way it works is that you mail them the fine and pay 100 SEK (about 1/8th of the fine) and they pay the fine for you.

    11. Re:Easy to fix by mjwx · · Score: 1

      A 27 year old Swede can look forward to 40% of the salary as a pension. A Greek 120%.

      You are aware that that is one of the main reasons that Greece was so thoroughly fucked by the financial crisis? One of the main reasons why such a large proportion of Greeks had no jobs at all for years?

      The main reason that Greece's economy ended up so fucked was the high level of tax evasion there. It's that a lot of Greek's didn't have jobs, its that they didn't have jobs on paper to avoid paying tax.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    12. Re:Easy to fix by penguinoid · · Score: 1

      I suspect that the cops don't need to get involved at all. All it would take is for a few conscientious objectors to this organization, signing up and getting themselves caught. As I understand it, the objective would be to get caught by the civil enforcement, not the police. So the people in charge of the transit system could, for example, offer to refund the $15 membership fee to anyone who they catch, and a horde of people will gladly donate money from Planka.ru to the transit system.

      --
      Don't waste your vote! Vote for whoever you want, unless you live in a swing state it won't matter anyways
    13. Re:Easy to fix by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And when you do, you'll perhaps start understanding that blaming everything on immigrants is stupid. (I'd call it confirmation bias but I'm not sure you'd understand that level of detail).

      Lack of stupid is generally why Sweden is a Much Better Place to live. You taking your stupid away further improves this.

      Don't let the door hit you on the arse on the way out.

  15. dodgy by HellYeahAutomaton · · Score: 1

    If you can dodge a fare, you can dodge a ball!

  16. Re:You can't have services without paying for them by NicBenjamin · · Score: 1

    I suspect the people who actually do this are mostly kids who don't have steady jobs yet. Being part of a union to dodge fees on public transit is probably viewed by many in the halls of power as a mischievous phase young'ens go through. According to the article only 3% of rides are not paid for, and most evaders seem to be High School age kids. Joining a fare-dodging union specifically designed to protest that taxes on the rich aren't high enough is IMO exactly the kind of mischief the powers-that-be in Sweden want the kids to be into.

    It would actually be fairly simple for the authorities to stop this. They have a dude at the gate watching the fare dodger, he almost always sees the fard dodger, he just doesn't have the time/energy to chase down a High School kid whose got a 50 foot head start.

    If they just had a real cop sitting before the entrance to the station platform they could probably catch almost everyone who tries to dodge a fare, which would run the fare-dodging group out of cash quite quickly. You borrow 200-300 police for a couple months and you'd destroy this organization pretty much forever. It would cost money (a couple months of borrowing 1% of the countries police, plus adding more transit police guys to keep the fare-stealers from just going underground for three months and you;re in the $10 million range easy), but according to the article fare-jumpers cost them $36 million a year already so it's be a good investment.

  17. Re: You can't have services without paying for the by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    A lot of people dislike taxes because politicians use the money to keep their constituents down and on the dole, just to get votes. Nothing ever improves, but they keep promising, and the people at the bottom get what amounts to a stipend, which keeps them voting.

  18. Easy solution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Just double the fine for each offense. It'll soon become cheaper to simply pay up like everyone else, and the parasites will disappear.

  19. LOL, members pay a fee?? by p51d007 · · Score: 1

    They pay a fee to be a member, but then think it is ok to NOT pay the transit fare?

  20. Re:Hop the strass by dreamchaser · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Literally meaning, I ain't got no money. You may know the concept better as, open source.

    Weak troll is weak. People who write OSS are willingly giving the product of their efforts away for free. That's got nothing to do with scofflaws who deliberately steal a service that they are not paying for.

  21. Re:You can't have services without paying for them by Zironic · · Score: 2

    The police has absolutely zero reason to help catching fare dodgers.

    To understand why so few fare dodgers get caught it's important to understand that the police has no business being in the metro unless they suspect a crime is going on. The only people in the metro are the metro guards who are explicitly -not- police.

    This is important because in Sweden only the police can legally detain you which means that when a metro guard catches you without a ticket, you can simply run out of the metro and the guard can't actually legally stop you.

  22. Turnstile Jumping and Broken Windows Policing by Nova+Express · · Score: 2

    New York City's crackdown on turnstile jumping was part of the Giuliani Administrations implementation of broken window policing. But reducing low level disorder and misdemeanor crime, broken windows policing makes the law abiding residents of neighborhoods feel safer.

    "A government’s inability to control even a minor crime like graffiti signaled to citizens that it certainly couldn’t handle more serious ones."

    Stopping and arresting turnstile jumpers in particular frequently turned up wanted felons, parole violators, and gangbangers with illegal guns. Arresting them not only took criminal predators, off the streets, it encouraged other criminals to leave their guns at home for fear of having them confiscated. This further reduced their abilities to commit criminal acts in places like subways, and reduced criminal gun incidents when members of rival gangs would bump into each other.

    --
    Lawrence Person (lawrencepersonh@gmailh.com (remove all "h"s to mail)

    http://www.lawrenceperson.com/

    1. Re:Turnstile Jumping and Broken Windows Policing by russotto · · Score: 0

      NYCs turnstile jumping crackdown is just a money grab. For instance, suppose you have an unlimited metrocard and the turnstile doesn't work; it accepts the card but doesn't open. There's no one nearby to help (the booth for the attendant is, as usual, unstaffed), and you can't use the metrocard again for some length of time (from 15-60 minutes depending on the station). So you hop the turnstile.... BAM two cops come out of the hidden room they've been watching the whole thing from, shove you against the wall, frisk you, and give you a $60 summons. Should you take it to court and tell the judge your story, the judge will say you're guilty anyway and you're still out the $60.

    2. Re:Turnstile Jumping and Broken Windows Policing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      How? *You* have the unlimited metrocard.

      There is a difference between not paying and faulty equipment.

    3. Re:Turnstile Jumping and Broken Windows Policing by mrbester · · Score: 1

      You really think facts proving your innocence have any place in a US court when the cops and prosecutors have quotas to fill?

      --
      "Wait. Something's happening. It's opening up! My God, it's full of apricots!"
    4. Re:Turnstile Jumping and Broken Windows Policing by DaveV1.0 · · Score: 1

      Now you are just being a troll.

      --
      There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
    5. Re:Turnstile Jumping and Broken Windows Policing by radish · · Score: 1

      Or you pay a couple of bucks and complain later. Given that this scenario has never happened to me in years of riding the subway makes me quite happy to take the $2 charge every few years to avoid dealing with the police.

      --

      ---- Den ene knappen er powerknapp, den andre er Bender voice knapp "Bite My Shiny Metal Ass"

    6. Re:Turnstile Jumping and Broken Windows Policing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'd tear up the ticket and forget about it. They can't actually do anything to someone for not paying.

  23. Forget barriers - just a punative penalty fare by Boss,+Pointy+Haired · · Score: 1

    If I ran a transport network, I wouldn't bother with barriers - just occasional ticket checks / smart card validation and upon failure it's a £1,000,000 fine.

    1. Re:Forget barriers - just a punative penalty fare by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is pretty much how the US health care system works.

    2. Re:Forget barriers - just a punative penalty fare by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Uh, ever heard that the punishment must fit the crime? And how would you enforce it? With heavily armed inspectors? Most people cannot pay such fines so when facing complete bankruptcy and a destroyed life, people do desperate, crazy shit. And would you instruct your inspectors to shoot at someone who's running away and might do that just because they're late and not because they don't have a valid ticket? If your inspectors are not armed, people will risk assault charges to fight them since if they get away, all that can be proven in court is assault because you still cannot prove that they didn't have a ticket.

    3. Re:Forget barriers - just a punative penalty fare by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I suppose it's a good thing you don't, then. Turning a minor accident like a lost ticket or system failure into what is (for most people) something that will destroy their lives financially is far from reasonable.

    4. Re:Forget barriers - just a punative penalty fare by awol · · Score: 1

      Look at the cost of collecting fares and the percentage of the cost of the service that fares actually provide. When taken in conjunction with the fact that the poorest people often have the highest cost of transport (live furthest away) there is a very strong argument that you should just forget about collecting fares at all and make the service a free for all. Just pay for it out of consolidated revenue or another "distributive" tax.

      --
      "The first thing to do when you find yourself in a hole is stop digging."
  24. A business proposition by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Dear Mister Tengblad who subscribes to planka.nu:

    I represent an organization called fivefingerdiscount.com which I believe will interest you, since it is similar to the one you are already a member of. Basically, you pay us a monthly fee, and then you have to steal something every time you visit a convenience store. It can be a chocolate bar, a magazine, a pack of gum, anything! Let's face it, the price of those goods is just too high nowadays. If you are caught, we will pay your fine. If not, you can enjoy your five finger discount knowing you've played your part in sticking it to the man.

  25. Re:You can't have services without paying for them by NicBenjamin · · Score: 1

    And is any of this written into the Constitution? Or could a simple parliamentary majority amend the law so that police could stop people dodging fares for the next few months, and then that the transit authority could hire 20-25 guys with police powers? Hell, even if there is a Constitutional bar, why couldn't they just hire 100 more station guards for a few months,m and then station a bunch of police outside the station to nail anyone running out.

    I read the article, and it seems like they're unlikely to use their legal powers to crush this little group. It feels like they think of fare-dodging as a socially acceptable form of teenage rebellion, particularly when it's done as part of a political protest, and therefore they don't actually want to force a bunch of rebellious high school age kids into other forms of rebellion. The voters probably wouldn't like it, and the PM himself has a couple kids who should be entering rebellious teenagerdom relatively soon.

    But that doesn't mean they couldn't nail everyone's ass to the wall if they really wanted to.

  26. Re:Hop the strass by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Either that or they are wise enough to know that public transportation is better for the planet than for each person to drive their own vehicle. Also, they never have to worry about finding a parking space, maintenance costs, filling up on gas, using their phone, napping and many other perks of riding Metro.

    Similarly, free software offers benefits to the individual user and to the entire world that commercial software can never match due to its very nature.

  27. Re:You can't have services without paying for them by Zironic · · Score: 1

    A simple parliamentary majority? Short of mind control powers you'll never get a Swedish parliament to give random uneducated bums police powers. The only non-police with police powers in Sweden are train conductors however the metro is not a train.

    Meanwhile the actual police are really expensive and overworked as is due to budget issues and there are consitutional issues preventing the state from giving orders to the police.

  28. Forget public trans - just stay home by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If the fare beaters' fine were 1 millon GBP, then everyone should just stop using public transportation. The risk of fine outweighs the benefits.

    I use the New Jersey and New York City public transport rather than driving. Sometimes, the turnstiles aren't functions and register no payment on the card incorrectly.

    Also, there is a lesser known rule against "excessive bail or fines" in the US Constitution.

  29. Re:Hop the strass by CohibaVancouver · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Those services are funded by tax payer money

    Those services are partially funded by tax payer money

    There, I fixed that for you.

  30. Public transit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Or the Transit Authority can lower the monthly cost for a full time rider to $14.99, and get the government to covere the difference from tax revenue. It is a socialist country you know.
    Just increase the tax on petrol (or whatever is Swedish for gasoline)

    Actually, the fare is already more than 50% subsidised by tax money as it is. Going to 100% subsidy, i.e. "free", would be doable from a economical point of view. Heck, it would save a shitload of money by not having to maintain inefficient technical means to prevent people riding without paying. :-P

    The problem would be that the number of people using the public transit system would increase beyond what it can provide...

  31. Re:Hop the strass by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Wake me up when you hit on some powerful truth then :)

  32. Thiefs think others should pay by aliquis · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Thiefs think others should pay, news at 11.

    I'm from Sweden and well aware of the idiots who think they have the right to pay when others do pay.

    They simply suck.

    I wish they all got caught and I wish everyone reported these idiots when they saw them.

    I still hate that I didn't when I saw someone jump in the back of the bus once here in Örebro.

    (Supposedly the immigrants in an immigrant dence part of the town have been doing this / (possibly threatening / ignoring the bus driver) here too.)

    Ass-holes, nothing to brag about. Shouldn't any idiot understand that everyone should contribute to the society to get the benefits out from it?

    You're free to believe that the fares should be free but not paying isn't the way to make it so. Do it politically and pay through taxes (most of these idiots are likely youths or leftish individuals who don't work anyway) and also realize that demand on transports would increase if everyone could travel for free.

    1. Re:Thiefs think others should pay by BasilBrush · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You're free to believe that the fares should be free but not paying isn't the way to make it so. Do it politically and pay through taxes

      They are doing. Civil disobedience is the primary way of getting political change. Democracy is broken in most countries.

      (most of these idiots are likely youths or leftish individuals who don't work anyway)

      Your bias and distain is noted. A more balanced view is that most fare dodgers are poor people. People for whom the fares are a more significant part of their income (if any).

      It's an unofficial form of redistribution of wealth. And indeed that's the political argument for having it paid for out general of taxation.

    2. Re:Thiefs think others should pay by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      immigrants in an immigrant dence

      Om du ska SD-gnälla över invandrare så är det en bra idé att åtm. stava rätt i det språk du väljer att använda.

      Hade jag sett dig gnälla (jodå, jag är Örebroare) hade jag betalt biljetten åt friåkaren. Medmänsklighet ftw.

    3. Re:Thiefs think others should pay by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I hope you do realize that when a Swede labels someone as a mere "leftist", the "leftist" individual in question would probably scare the shit out of an average American?

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    4. Re:Thiefs think others should pay by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

      Yes I do realise that. The US Democratic party is a right wing party by European standards.

    5. Re:Thiefs think others should pay by mjwx · · Score: 1

      They are doing. Civil disobedience is the primary way of getting political change.

      These people are just arseholes who only want to get out of paying a fare. There is nothing political about their actions, they're entirely selfish.

      It would not matter to them if the public transport system was government run like in Sweden or mostly private like in Singapore.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    6. Re:Thiefs think others should pay by Jack+Griffin · · Score: 1

      Democracy is broken in most countries.

      You should try living in a dictatorship some time. Then you will appreciate what you have.

    7. Re:Thiefs think others should pay by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They are doing. Civil disobedience is the primary way of getting political change. Democracy is broken in most countries.

      Risk-free turnstile jumping is now on par with being jailed for refusal to pay war taxes? Henry David Thoreau is rolling in his grave.

    8. Re:Thiefs think others should pay by bucket_brigade · · Score: 2

      Any standards, really.

    9. Re:Thiefs think others should pay by aliquis · · Score: 1

      I obviously meant right not to pay :)

      I was very tired yesterday so I apologize for any other mistakes made as well :)

    10. Re:Thiefs think others should pay by DerekLyons · · Score: 1

      A more balanced view is that most fare dodgers are poor people. People for whom the fares are a more significant part of their income (if any).

      Your bias is noted. (Hint: Pulling assumptions out of your ass is not "balanced", it's "biased".)

    11. Re:Thiefs think others should pay by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      (most of these idiots are likely youths or leftish individuals who don't work anyway)

      Your bias and distain is noted. A more balanced view is that most fare dodgers are poor people. People for whom the fares are a more significant part of their income (if any).

      It's an unofficial form of redistribution of wealth. And indeed that's the political argument for having it paid for out general of taxation.

      You are aware that you are talking about *Sweden*, where "being poor" is somewhat different from the same situation in the U.S.?

    12. Re:Thiefs think others should pay by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They are doing. Civil disobedience is the primary way of getting political change. Democracy is broken in most countries.

      What the h.. it has to do with democracy and civil disobedience ? It is little petty thieves against transport companies. No matter they are public or not. This is simple stealing and nothing else. If they disagree with the prices - let them make their own transportation company and suffer from free-riders. There is no stopping thives from stealing - we can only minimize the problem. In country with lots of public property the public soon starts being felt like something belonging to noone so stealing it is OK.

    13. Re:Thiefs think others should pay by aralin · · Score: 1

      It is a little more than that. They would be considered far right lunatics by European standards. A fringe party with no possible popular support because of how far right they are.

      --
      If programs would be read like poetry, most programmers would be Vogons.
    14. Re:Thiefs think others should pay by BadDreamer · · Score: 1

      Most fare dodgers appear to be commuting white collar workers.

    15. Re:Thiefs think others should pay by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

      These people are just arseholes who only want to get out of paying a fare. There is nothing political about their actions, they're entirely selfish.

      How do you know? Are you Swedish? Do you know any of the individuals concerned?

      It would not matter to them if the public transport system was government run like in Sweden or mostly private like in Singapore.

      The issue doesn't appear to be who runs it, it's how it's paid for. And if it was government run and financed out of general taxation, then this form of protest wouldn't be possible.

    16. Re:Thiefs think others should pay by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

      Nothing will make me appreciate living in an oligarchy.

    17. Re:Thiefs think others should pay by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

      Two statements:

      1. (most of these idiots are likely youths or leftish individuals who don't work anyway)

      2. most fare dodgers are poor people.

      Clearly the second is more balanced than the first. Which is what I said.

    18. Re:Thiefs think others should pay by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      All weasel words. You know these guys are assholes, we all know they're assholes, and they know they are assholes. Making it "political " is just a way to get sympathy. It's the old wink wink nudge nudge. Ya know, how our management just had to go on a "training" conference in Honolulu. I wish I could train on the beach drinking a mai thai.

    19. Re:Thiefs think others should pay by aliquis · · Score: 1

      http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/D...

      We're down to number 4. Say we dropped from number 1 in 2010.

      Our 9,50 on a scale 1-10 where the USA is 8,11 is still likely decent.

      Supposedly 8-10 is a working democracy.. So the US is pushing the limit but still on the right side of the line.

      I'm "poor" too. I have never done it (Guess I'm leftish too, thing is I don't ignore how my actions affect others I suppose.)

      Since Stockholm is bigger than at least the other cities in Sweden it cost a bit more for a months access to the subway network than buses here. I totally have nothing against it being free if we decided it should be free but I do have something against some people simply deciding they don't have to pay while others obviously do.

      Just because you're the biggest jerk around shouldn't mean you get privileges.

  33. Re:Hop the strass by Wing_Zero · · Score: 1

    if nobody rides, some politician would cut funding to boost his career. "I saved the state $XXXXX a year during my time as a senator!" (and to funnel money into his own pet project)

    Typically, these programs are funded to 75% through taxes, and then it is up to the management to set fees and such to make up the difference.

    So for example, the train maintenance is covered, and tracks, and new tunnels, but gas/fuel, and wages come from the tickets. (not a informed breakdown on this exact case, but i have family in the accounting side of government, and i base these figures on past conversations with them)

  34. Re:You can't have services without paying for them by NicBenjamin · · Score: 1

    Who said anything about "uneducated bums" getting police powers? Police academies are things that exist, and can turn uneducated bums into police officers.

    As for the police, I took my numbers from their actual budget. They have 20k police officers with police powers. 1% of 20k is 200 guys. Their budget is 20.6 billion SEK. 1% of 20.6 billion SEK is 206 million SEK. 206 million SEK is $32 million US. Two months is one sixth of that, which works out to $5.3-$5.4 million. Add a little profit and the transit system spends $6 million or so on borrowing police with police powers, and then spends $3-$5 million a year on police doing the exact same job, with the exact same education requirements, and the exact same powers as the guys who investigate murders. The only difference would be their waiting-for-something-to-happen spot to stand would be in a subway station, and since they're in the station watching the fare-dodger commit a fine-able offense they'd spend a lot of time issuing fines.

    Moreover your explanation of how police powers work in Sweden is simply weird. Somebody has to have the power to decide where police officers stand, and whether they grab kids running out of the subways are potential fare-dodgers. If that person is not the parliament of Sweden it's the unelected people who run the Swedish Police. And if the Swedish police have that kind of autonomy they can do this all without even writing a goddamn press release.

  35. Freeloaders... Why is this on slashdot? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I live in Stockholm. This is many years old news and what does it have to do with news for nerds? I regularly push back the people who "ryggplankar" on me. They are just freeloaders who won't pay their share of the service they are using. They motivate it by saying they don't agree with the political decisions which have been made about funding public transport. Fine, run a political campaign to change the opinion of voters. That is what democracy is about. The voters make the rules, and people follow the rules.

  36. Re:You can't have services without paying for them by Zironic · · Score: 3, Insightful

    It's hard to describe with words how deeply the core principles of the Swedish state would be violated by your proposal. You are essentially proposing breaking down the entire system of government.

    SL (The owner of the metro) is a private corporation that is owned by the local county. Having a private company employ police in the capacity of policemen is unthinkable, it can simply not happen, ever. It violates every principle about division of power and oversight of power.

    Yes, the Chief of Police has the authority to send all his police down in the metro to catch people dodging fares if he wanted to. But what sort of perverse mind control would you use on him to make him do such a thing and how many seconds do you think he would remain chief of police if he did so? Catching people dodging fares is not part of his mandate and by ordering the policemen to do so, he'd make them unable to actually prevent crime. That sort of thing would force the oversight board to remove him on the spot.

  37. Not Surprised That This Is The Same Country... by brit74 · · Score: 1

    Where the Pirate Bay was started. They seem to have quite a few freeloading idiots who feel they shouldn't have to pay for things, and don't understand how economics works.

    1. Re:Not Surprised That This Is The Same Country... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Are you sure that you understand how human civilization works? Generating maximum economic value is not a panacea and some societies might reflect that in how they function. I could just as well say that Americans are idiots when they accept that the gap between CEO remuneration and worker remuneration is greater in the US than anywhere else and American CEOs aren't proportionally better than their foreign counterparts and are often - in fact - worse. Just look at the car industry (excluding Tesla).

    2. Re:Not Surprised That This Is The Same Country... by sten+ben · · Score: 1

      Where the Pirate Bay was started. They seem to have quite a few freeloading idiots who feel they shouldn't have to pay for things, and don't understand how economics works.

      Something you, of course, do understand. Which somehow I doubt given that most Nobel laureates in economics wouldn't make that claim. That both the movie and music industries seem to be doing better and better despite the freeloaders reinforces that impression.

    3. Re:Not Surprised That This Is The Same Country... by Dereck1701 · · Score: 1

      That's one possible interpretation, another might be that there was a massive market (online distribution) that the studios were purposely not utilizing to prop up their DVD/Blue Ray sales. Others sought to fill that demand. I know I'd happily pay a few bucks for a digital copy (DRM free, unrestricted, no specialized player) from an official source over one from some distribution site riddled with poor/limited/malicious copies. Unfortunately there still is not such an option, though online rental services (Netflix, Amazon Instant Videos, etc) fill part of the demand. There have also been studies indicating a significant number of those who do pirate also have a tendency to purchase more DVD/Blue Ray then the average person.

  38. Re:You can't have services without paying for them by NicBenjamin · · Score: 1

    Something is clearly being lost in translation here. In the US a "private corporation owned by the County" is a contradiction in terms. Same with any English-speaking jurisdiction I have ever researched.

    If a County or Municipal government sets up a corporation, that corporation is by definition a public body. If the County wanted to grant it legal powers (including police powers) it could do that. I live in Cleveland. The local mass transit company has it's own police force. Since those police have been granted jurisdiction throughout the County, they have more powers then almost every policeman who works directly for a local unit of government. Moreover even private companies frequently have police on-premises that they pay for. My local Pharmacy/Grocery Store (a Giant Eagle) had a Deputy from the County Sheriff's Department standing in front of the store for years, now they've switched to local Police. It's a deterrent to shop-lifting, and it makes things go a lot smoother when somebody gets caught shoplifting in the store. Most big public events -- hockey games, for example -- are legally required to pay the local municipality for police to be on-site.

    Those guys are public safety officers, with all police powers, and if there was an emergency they'd leave the area; but since police officers spend most of their time standing around waiting for something to happen neither the County nor the local City have a problem with accepting money to have an Officer stand in the lobby of Giant Eagle while he waits for something to happen. If the local transit company didn't have it's own cops on it's train line, and offered to pay 100-200 local police salaries to cover it's stations for fare dodgers for a few months, nobody would bat an eye.

    As for your last paragraph, who determines the local Chief's "mandate"? From the Wiki it seems like the Government (ie: the Cabinet) appoints all Commissioners at all levels. This means that if the PM decided that he was gonna crush fare dodging forever, and he had the support of his Cabinet, then fare dodging would be (by definition) part of the local Police Chief's mandate. Any Commissioner who didn't like it wouldn't be a Commissioner anymore. It could take awhile (the wiki does not indicate whether Commissioners have terms, and can be replaced mid-term, so the PM might have to wait until pro-fare-dodging Commissioners terms ended), but the government does not give up on a project just because it'll take five years.

    I'm not arguing that this would be a good idea, or that the people of Sweden would agree that it was something the government should do (and the fact that you are saying, flat-out, that fare-dodging isn't a crime despite the fact they can fine you for dodging a fare, seems to imply it would be even less popular then I thought); but I am arguing that if ruling party wanted to do it they could pull it off.

  39. Re:Hop the strass by CohibaVancouver · · Score: 1

    The services are fully funded by taxes

    Where I live (Vancouver, Canada) the bus & metro fares amount for about 35% of the operating costs of the transit system. Only 2/3s comes from taxes - So no, the services are not 'fully funded by taxes.'

  40. Re:You can't have services without paying for them by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Something is clearly being lost in translation here. In the US a "private corporation owned by the County" is a contradiction in terms. Same with any English-speaking jurisdiction I have ever researched.

    BBC.

  41. The disease spreads.... by dfenstrate · · Score: 1

    . Mitt Romney takes advantage of loop-holes in tax laws to hide his money from US taxes by shuffling it around shell corporations in the Cayman islands. Mitt pays accountants and lawyers to set all that stuff up. The whole reason the US produces so many lawyers is to help rich people and corporations walk right up the the often fuzzy line between what is legal and what isn't.

    Oh, look, it's a 'Take every chance to blame an enemy of the left whenever possible even though it's not remotely connected to the topic at hand' post. I thought these were confined to fark.com; it appears I was mistaken, and it also appears there are moderators on board. Perhaps your very own sock puppet moderators.

    --
    Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms should be the name of a store, not a government agency.
    1. Re:The disease spreads.... by mark_reh · · Score: 1

      I was merely using Mitt Romney's legal tax avoidance as a well-known example of what it means to use loop-holes in the laws. I could just as well have used any number of profitable, supposedly-US corporations that pay little or no taxes in the US, but more people are probably familiar with Mitt Romney's case.

      We might ask why those loop-holes exist in the first place. If I may engage in a little Fox-News type "just asking questions", why is it that tax laws written by rich people always seem to have loop-holes that benefit rich people? Hmmmm. I'm just asking...

  42. Re:You can't have services without paying for them by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

    Police academies are things that exist, and can turn uneducated bums into police officers.

    In most countries that's a retrograde step.

  43. Re:You can't have services without paying for them by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    You're wrong about planka.nu but assuming that you're not Swedish, I forgive you for not knowing.

    First of all, they state that public transportation should be considered part of infrastructure, which of course also costs tax money to maintain. You don't need to pay for walking on the sidewalk now do you? That's their message. Personally, I'd add that the ticket system isn't free either so if public transportation were not paid for through other means than taxes, there would be savings like that. And as proof of viability, I offer the city of Tallinn and the city of Mariehamn because they have indeed gone that route (the latter is tiny with only two bus lines, though).

    Second, they really do this as a campaign - maybe not the most noble form of civil disobedience since their cost is smaller than the benefit - but they indeed do advocate that tax revenue should be increased, if necessary, to cover the cost. You can call it leeching or even theft but what they're doing is no more lazy than buying a monthly pass is (and actually the need to dodge inspectors technically makes them less lazy).

    In my opinion it's a pretty efficient way to campaign for what they want since everyone (with a monthly pass at least) has an incentive to join them and if everybody does, they will have reached their goal. I seriously doubt that planka.nu would be unable to pay the fines on behalf of people in that scenario since ticket inspectors can work fast when they're just looking at valid tickets but if they must constantly stop to issue fines, they will be a lot slower. Not to mention that when caught, people in this campaign would certainly not dig through their wallets and purses all that fast to check if they really have "forgotten or lost" their ticket.

    You might not agree with their political goal but you cannot deny that their method for striving towards it is smart and infinitely more efficient than writing petitions to elected representatives.

  44. Upkeep? by DaveV1.0 · · Score: 1

    If one can't afford a non-essential service, why should one be allowed to use said non-essential service? If those who can't pay, don't have to pay, why should those that can pay actually pay? If no one pays, how is the cost of the service paid?

    --
    There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
  45. Re:You can't have services without paying for them by BasilBrush · · Score: 1

    Moreover even private companies frequently have police on-premises that they pay for.

    Sounds like a symptom of the sickness of America. The country is run by and for business, not the people.

    In Europe, because of a bad experience last century, we tend to steer well clear of fascism. And fascism is an offshoot of corporatism. Allowing companies to buy the right to their own police service is something to be very wary of.

  46. Re:You can't have services without paying for them by Zironic · · Score: 2

    Sweden operates on a different legal system then the US and England does which often confuses Slashdot posters.

    When a government entity wants to do something it has two options, either it makes a department for it such as the police or firemen. Alternatively it can create a corporation with a CEO where the board of directors are the elected politicians.

    A corporation is legally no different from any other corporation, the only difference is that the owner is the county or the state. A number of major Swedish corporations such as Vattenfall are owned by the state.

    Furthermore a Swedish county (Komun) is an administrative body, not a legislative one. While they can create ordnances they have no legislative power to grant anyone police powers, that is something that has to be done by the parliament.

    While we a few years ago introduced the system where public events have to pay for the police protection, that is not a system where the public event gets to hire the police, that is a system where the police arbitrarily decides how much protection the event needs and then sends them the bill. Their options are to not hold the event or pay the bill, they do not get to choose their level of protection.

    The Swedish police does not ever guard common stores unless they are actively investigating crime (For instance lately they've been standing around goldsmiths as gold robberies have been on the rise for years), if a store wants active protection it has to pay guards which do not have much more legal authority then a common citizen (Largely they're legally allowed to physically evict you).

    People commissioned by the Swedish government can't be fired (To protect them from political pressure) however they can be replaced. That is they get to continue with their current salary for the duration of their term while someone else gets to do their job. The cabinet only appoints the top level directors who are then supposed to be able to handle everything else. I'm not sure about the exact hierarchy of the police but I believe there's at-least 4-5 levels between the cabinet and Stockholm City Police not counting the various oversight boards.

    The cabinet also has a very limited ability to control the priorities of their departments, this is the relevant bit of law
    "No public authority, including the Riksdag and the decision-making bodies of local authorities, may determine how an administrative authority shall decide in a particular case relating to the exercise of public authority vis-Ã-vis a private subject or a local authority, or relating to the application of law."

    Essentially while the Cabinet controls the budget of the department, makes the commisions as well as perform various executive decisions. They can't legally tell the department how to apply the law.

    For example when it comes to Filesharing it is illegal but it's on near zero priority for the police because it's a non-jailable offence (Like not paying the ticket in the metro). If the justice minister told the police to prioritise that she would go to jail for constitutional crimes, her only option is to either get the Riksdag to change the law so it's a jailable offense or require the police to focus on non-jailable offences in general.

  47. Re:You can't have services without paying for them by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The BBC isn't a private corporation, jackass. It's regulated and controlled by any number of Acts of Parliament and the level of its funding is likewise controlled by Parliament.

    If you looked at the Corporation of London you'd be in with a far better shout, but I doubt you've ever heard of them. And even there you'd also have a good argument for saying they're a Civic authority and not private, though the distinction does blur a bit.

  48. Re:You can't have services without paying for them by Zironic · · Score: 1

    A much shorter version of my post would be this.

    You know how people talk about how the US constitution was written to escape Tyranny right? The Swedish state of government was written for the same purpose but with an entirely different approach. After experiencing what government where the executive had absolute power was like, we designed a system where noone has absolute power. Everything has to be executed through the system which requires committees to agree on almost anything and we are -extremely- careful about handing out any kind of government authority.

  49. Re:Hop the strass by sir-gold · · Score: 1

    I searched for "hop the strass" and the only result in Google is this thread.

    Which, I have to say, is pretty impressive for Google to have already indexed it.

    Congratulations on starting a new meme.

  50. Re:You can't have services without paying for them by NicBenjamin · · Score: 1

    I think I understand what you've been trying to say, and the Swedish system as a whole, a lot better.

    It doesn't change my conclusion, tho. It just changes the bad guy who makes fare-dodging impossible to get away with the entire Riksdag, rather just being the PM. Changes in that law would probably include an explicit instruction to prioritize fare-dodging, allowing certain officers to go into the stations and enforce the law, etc.

    Note that I don't actually support cracking down on these kids. I'm just saying that if the Swedish government decided to do so they could do it.

  51. Re:You can't have services without paying for them by NicBenjamin · · Score: 1

    Fascism is a nation-wide policy. If you're defining it as Corporatism run amok you guys in Europe have a much bigger problem, because the most successful European economies are strongly Corporatist. The Scandinavian states, Low Countries, Germans, and French all routinely renegotiate their economic deals in back rooms dominated by a couple big companies and their unions. That's a lot more fucking corporatist then a tiny suburb (Bedford is 10-20k) agreeing that a cop should stand in a store for awhile.

  52. Re:You can't have services without paying for them by Zironic · · Score: 1

    Indeed the Riksdag could do it. It's just that convincing 175 people to change the law so that the police in a single city can crack down on mostly high school kids is not a very realistic proposition.

    If you had a mind control device installed in the building you could do that and a host of other things (Changing the constitution would be a breeze!) but it's not something I see happening otherwise.

    From a realistic perspective there's nothing SL or the City of Stockholm can do. SL can ask the Highway authority to raise the fines, but the Highway Authority will say no. They can ask the Riksdag to change the law, but the Riksdag will say no. They can ask the Police to deal with it, but the Police will say no. From the perspective of all these agencies and departments this is just a minor local issue and they have actual work to do.

  53. K. S. Kyosuke gets called out & ran by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    From a fair challenge like a chickenshit blowhard who tosses names & runs http://slashdot.org/comments.p...

    1. Re:K. S. Kyosuke gets called out & ran by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Go get medical help, apk. You sorely need it.

  54. K. S. Kyosuke gets called out & ran by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    From a fair challenge like a chickenshit blowhard who tosses names & runs http://slashdot.org/comments.p...

  55. Re:Hop the strass by j-beda · · Score: 1

    To be fair, we should also consider how much of the operating costs are involved in collecting the fares. If it is significant, there would be a stronger case for eliminating it.

  56. The best way to stop the fare dodgers is simple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    100 people sign up to Planka.nu at $15/month
    They deliberately get caught not buying tickets twice a day
    They forward the fines to Planka.nu
    Two $180 fines a day for a working month is about $10K per person
    100 people could doing this would wreck Planka.nu

  57. Insurance scheme isn't equal to drug addiction by Firethorn · · Score: 1

    The AC is correct. This is mostly an economic crime, not one of addiction.
    Consider the organization: From a monthly fee of $15, the organization can afford to cover the $180 fine.
    Translation: Out of every 100 subscribers, the organization only expects about 7 to be caught each month. They take in $1500, pay out $1,440, and make $60 worth of profit. More realistically I'd expect only 5-7 hits each month.

    Increase the penalties and more importantly the odds of being caught and it'd be possible to raise the cost of fair-jumping to the point that the cost of monthly insurance would exceed the $120 to just buy a monthly pass.

    On a different topic; transit systems can be looked at a bit like the road in front of somebody's house. It's a diffused public benefit, much like roads. Maybe if they used properly/sales/income taxes within the city to pay for the transit, in order to encourage people to use it more. Even people who are rich enough to drive everywhere anyways can enjoy the benefits of lower traffic on the roads.

    --
    I don't read AC A human right
    1. Re:Insurance scheme isn't equal to drug addiction by TheLink · · Score: 1

      transit systems can be looked at a bit like the road in front of somebody's house.

      I see them more like the escalators and elevators in a shopping mall or office buildings. Most malls and office buildings don't charge people to use those. They make the bulk of their money elsewhere.

      As such I think public transport should be free in cities that can afford to make it free. The cities could charge their "tenants" a tax which pays for it all.

      It might actually be more efficient that way since it costs money AND time to charge (slows commuters down too). If you don't charge you won't need a lot of the infrastructure and staff for handling, reconciling and enforcing payment. Perhaps someone can work out the costs of "charging" and the amount of net income it brings to the city.

      --
    2. Re:Insurance scheme isn't equal to drug addiction by Firethorn · · Score: 1

      It might actually be more efficient that way since it costs money AND time to charge (slows commuters down too). If you don't charge you won't need a lot of the infrastructure and staff for handling, reconciling and enforcing payment. Perhaps someone can work out the costs of "charging" and the amount of net income it brings to the city.

      Indeed. In addition, in cases like subway systems, the marginal cost per rider is tiny. Have it be a bit like the trams in airports - free, quick, and easy to use. It becomes a reason for people to live there. The 'free' part encourages people to use it, which means that businesses close to stops should love it.

      --
      I don't read AC A human right
  58. Re:Hop the strass by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Hmm, here in Auckland, New Zealand, the public transport is funded to the tune of 110% of the OpEx of the entire infrastructure.

    On top of that, they spent the equivalent of 15 years of OpEx on an electronic fare system that to this day still has problems. That too was paid for by Auckland City.

    In Sydney, Australia, the same thing.

    If only we had double-dipping, it's more like triple-dip here.

  59. Re:Hop the strass by fikx · · Score: 1

    OSS ideas are based first on rights, not money FYI.
    OSS != no-cost software.

    --
    AB HOC POSSUM VIDERE DOMUM TUUM
  60. Re:You can't have services without paying for them by SaldoT · · Score: 1

    I'm afraid you're wrong on all accounts. The reason for the police to catch dodgers would be that the dodgers are breaking the law. This is usually something the police cares about. There are police stationed in the subway, they even have their own division; the subway police. In Sweden ANYONE can detain (arrest) someone who commits a crime punishable by jail time. The police, the metro guards, my mother.. anyone. (RB 24:7 if memory serves me right). Riding the subway without a ticket is fraud which falls in the "jail time" category. There is one catch though. It is legal to ride the subway without showing our train pass and you can legally enter to enter the subway station by jumping the gates as long as you do have a train pass on you. If you do though, people would suspect that you are committing fraud (riding without a ticket) but the only ones allowed to detain based on suspicion are the police. There are examples of people trying to prove a point by jumping the gates and when they are arrested they show their metro card and try to turn the tables by arresting the metro employees who arrested them since they are illegally detaining someone who had not committed a crime.. nothing came of it though.

  61. Re:You can't have services without paying for them by Zironic · · Score: 1

    1) The subway police are stationed in the subway to handle the safety of the subway, they are not there to catch fare dodgers. They will however catch you if you jump right infront of them.

    2) Riding with a false ticket is fraud, riding without a ticket is simply unauthorised access which is punishable by a fine (ordningsbot) not jail. This is regulated by Ordningslag (1993:1617) Chapter 4 paragraph 6.4 and 10.

  62. Re:You can't have services without paying for them by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That is mostly an ideological complaint. Reasonable people have come up with an alternative explanation which shows that no principles are broken. The metro system is operating in a way that attracts an undue amount of crime. It is reasonable to tax such activities, as they require extra police effort.

    Of course, the decision to tax such companies cannot be made by the chief of police, that is a political decision. And similarly obvious, the policemen involved are still subject to political overview, they're not on a private payroll.

    As a side effect, this same law can be used to tax sports events in countries that have issues with hooligans.

  63. Re:You can't have services without paying for them by Zironic · · Score: 1

    Important addendum:
    It is minor fraud as per Brottsbalk (1962:700) Chapter 9 paragraph 2 to use transportation with the expectation of cash payment without paying.

    However SL can not make use for that law for a number of reasons including
    A) They don't take cash anymore.
    B) The burden of proof is very high as in order to apply they need to verify that someone hasn't paid for their ticket -after- they've already taken the ride -and- confirmed the person is not willing to pay the punitive fee. Essentially the person has to confess.

  64. Public transit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Or the Transit Authority can lower the monthly cost for a full time rider to $14.99, and get the government to covere the difference from tax revenue. It is a socialist country you know.
    Just increase the tax on petrol (or whatever is Swedish for gasoline)

    "socialism - a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole."

    Sweden is not a Socialist country, you know.

  65. Ban them... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Since they can identify persistent infringers, then ban them from using the transit system. Any appearance of them at a transit station then becomes a criminal event which will have escalating fines and imprisonments. Publicize the picture of persistent infringers and the practice will slowly go away.

  66. One beer puts you over the limit? Not here. by jjo · · Score: 2

    I don't know where you are posting from, but here in the USA one beer with dinner will not put you over the legal limit. Even for a very petite woman, consuming one beer over the course of a dinner will barely get your BAC above 0.03%. The limit in the USA is 0.08%.

    Even if you are in a jurisdiction where one beer puts you over the limit, get real. You are talking about operation of machinery that is highly dangerous when operated improperly. Aircraft pilots are in the same situation, and they are prohibited from any alcohol consumption for 8 hours (or more) before flight. How is your situation as a driver essentially different from that of a pilot? Do you want pilots having a beer with their dinner in the cockpit?

  67. Pay your fair share! by kaatochacha · · Score: 1

    Why don't' these people just pay their fair share? Oh, because fare share (pun intended) for them is someone else paying it. The "other", in this case being those who drive and those who are rich.

  68. Re:You can't have services without paying for them by dave420 · · Score: 1

    British Broadcasting Corporation. Nice try. They do have a commercial subsidiary, though, which is not called BBC.