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US May Prevent Chinese Hackers From Attending Def Con, Black Hat
Taco Cowboy (5327) links to a report from Reuters that says "Washington is considering using visa restrictions to prevent Chinese nationals from attending popular summer hacking conferences in Las Vegas as part of a broader effort to curb Chinese cyber espionage, a senior administration official said Saturday. The official said that Washington could use such visa restrictions and other measures to keep Chinese from attending the August Def Con and Black Hat events to maintain pressure on China after the United States this week charged five Chinese military officers with hacking into U.S. companies to steal trade secrets."
Under the Obama administration, the preferred form of entry into the U.S. is via the Mexican border. Once they cross by that border, they'll be untouchable by INS, and even committing serious crimes will not guarantee their removal from the U.S.
Or, to summarize, visas are for suckers.
Good move US, isolate yourself from the rest of the world, so we don't have to do it.
See how that goes for you. Moves like this will only make the next Con's happen in a non totalitarian country, your loss.
PS: Isn't the 2nd amendment's sole purpose to prevent your government from acting against the people? Can you tell me what the f* you're waiting for?
Bar members of the Chinese military from attending. Even that is purely symbolic.
Someone should tell Obama that in American we don't bar people based on race or nationality alone.
Keep in mind. The US sets the standard. If we start doing things like this, don't whine when the China does the same thing. They could make the same case for any conference on any topic. If Americans come, they will steal XYZ.
Since the US is under such an oppressive regime, it's better to be denied entry than the other thing that usually happens over there: detention with no accusation.
yeah this is the way to do it. Look forward to going to defcon 2015, Beijing, China
If the government wants to stop Chinese from hacking US companies, it should limit the number of Chinese students studying Computer Science in American universities. That would cut the number of skilled Chinese hackers, and would increase the number of places in American universities for American students. ( See the article "Chinese flock to elite U.S. schools". ) Of course there are worldwide MOOC classes, but limiting access to classroom Computer Science education would help.
It's about your government turning the country into a giant jail and you all are the inmates.
I thought I was dead...
Chas - The one, the only.
THANK GOD!!!
I'm not sure if the U.S. forgot about the Snowden leaks or is trying to encourage other countries to start blocking U.S. citizens from traveling abroad.
Maybe they are using this as a controversial topic to get into the news so that people start thinking that since the Chinese are hacking/spying, that the U.S. isn't the only ones doing it, making it less of a serious issue...
I really would love to hear Washington's response to why they think they have the right to block China travelers for doing the same thing the U.S. has 100% proof of doing, not just claims.
After all the reports of Chinese based hackers penetrating every nook and cranny of Federal and Commercial Defense assets over the last couple of years this seams a case of closing the barn door long after the horse has left...
China should just stop lending money to the US and watch it default.
Well, lets just piss them off some more at us. They are obviously the 1 group on this planet that wont retaliate.
Everyone having watched the simpsons knows that americans are ready to sell nuclear secrets to the chinese government for a bicycle.
Given how much they've already stolen from us and other First World countries, it would be a good thing.
Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
They're probably all running XP on their laptops, so keeping them out would significantly cut down on the number of vulnerabilities floating around the con WiFi.
The Chinese don't have solid proof to the level that the US has on the Chinese. The Chinese only can cite a person that handed over US secrets, while the US can cite private and public sector examples (much less Chinese history of stealing from their own).
That, and it doesn't look like the US wants much from the US aside from a compliant labor pool.
Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
That's what you get for this "edgy" poser naming of yourself. It's costing you your fourth amendment rights. And furriners, well, no need to teach'em the skills outright, no? As far as the US Gov't understands (which isn't that far off the picture that the "security experts" love to paint of themselves!) this is perfectly reasonable. So no complaining to them. Complain to your fellow hat wearers.
Recently finished up my 8 years in in Navy, last for were spent working alongside NSA, when you say "China's in every nook and crany" i't for the most part just bs malware...China is actually the #1 intruder we CATCH...it's the ones that we dont know about that to be worried about. Also, Defcon is all about freedom of information, i find it rather counter-productive to limit what it stands for...espeically comming form US with our "freedom of speech"
The only solid (and court-tested) proof exists on the Chinese against the US (and about every First World country).
Snowden will only count when he and his case comes before a US court. Until then, any statements, materials, or positions held by him / his supporters are only conjecture.
Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
There's always the rest of the world(read: countries within the NATO-defined First World) that doesn't want the US's head on a plate.
Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
I'd like to see them try.
Well, it doesn't matter if the US helps its friends and acts to defend against enemies (such as the BRIC countries and their allies).
It'll be more pleasant when people are penalized for aiding and abetting anti-US countries like China. Now if it only extended to guest worker programs as well.
Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
I mean, really.
When the US govt starts dictating who is allowed to come to your conferences you need to move the conference. Same as the AIDS research conferences have been held anywhere except the US since the 80s because from 1987 to 2009 the US govt banned people with AIDS from traveling to the US.
Obama is a jerk, the whole administration keeps on making stupid decision. If you keep on doing things like this, just don't come crying when other people would do the same thing to you. It's not just China, it could be any country too.
It's already been hacked. They offered me cash to go there in their stead.
Ok, the U.S. (through the NSA) has been revealed (through Snowden) to be able to:
1) record and retain EVERY phone call made in an ENTIRE country (actually two, the Bahamas and Afghanistan I think)
2) hack into the e-mail of at least some world leaders (for example: Germany, not exactly weak in the technology department)
3) subvert (and exploit?) the standards for some of the world's most widely used security protocols
4) hack into the networks of Huawei to view source code (and change it?), one of the largest vendors of routers and other critical network gear
5) collect and retain for later data mining, the text and metadata for hundreds of MILLIONS (billions?) of people for YEARS
6) record conversations, videos and other intel through devices even when they appear to be OFF
7) has planted HARDWARE back doors in the equipment used worldwide for computing and communications
and on and on...
So why can't they tell China to STOP HACKING our networks for business advantage or ELSE
1) release the e-mails and other documents showing the favors given to the families of the top Chinese officials
2) publish the electronic money trail where the HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS of dollars worth of bribes have gone (at that scale you don't use scraps of paper)
- this includes MONEY and other assets like property illegally squirreled ABROAD, which may be an offense (under Chinese law) punishable by DEATH
3) publish information regarding kept mistresses of the marriage officials of the elite, their names, dates of assignation, children born out of wedlock, assets
- throw in pictures (videos?) and every tabloid would have a field day
4) detail the political "assassinations" (sometimes literal!) and other dirty deals the elite have done to get into and remain in power
It appears that as a byproduct of their goal(?) of ferreting out security threats to the U.S. (or just plain building their capabilities) the NSA has a treasure trove of information that could topple MANY corrupt, authoritarian governments. Of course the U.S. is not immune to corruption but (I read) the (illegal) corruption in the U.S. is measured in the millions not billions of dollars. That's to be distinguished from the legal forms of corruption, lobbying, that plagues the U.S. :(
The NSA, starting from WWII, has had many decades (and a budget in the tens of billions A YEAR) to build up their technological supremacy (as well as being the single largest employer of mathematicians on the planet. Think of what THAT means). That is not an insignificant amount of money, it DWARFS most countries entire defense budgets! Also remember that the U.S. (and to a lessor extent Britain) are the CREATOR of the Internet as well as the modern computer; remember that Google, Microsoft, Facebook, Twitter, Apple, Cisco, Intel, IBM, AMD, ARM, Nvidia are all Anglo-American companies. Think of all the "backdoor" connections that have been made over the past half-century at informal (high school/college buddies), formal (legal demands for information) and top secret levels (matter of national security or else go to prison). It's at the point where, to a foreign government, every CPU made or designed in America (basically all of them) and every packet (sent from America) must be suspect.
So the Chinese have MUCH much more to fear from the U.S. If they don't want a "digital Pearl Harbor" they would be wise to play by (America's) rules.
Why are they singling out the Chinese? Don't throw statistics at me. There are French, Israeli, Egyptian, South Korean, Japanese, and on down the line who've hacked facets of the US Government and US Companies. If you're going to go down this road, you have to disallow everyone. I'm not saying you should go down this road. Then again, I aspire to be a Chinese Citizen.
If the government wants to stop Chinese from hacking US companies, it should limit the number of Chinese students studying Computer Science in American universities. That would cut the number of skilled Chinese hackers, and would increase the number of places in American universities for American students. ( See the article "Chinese flock to elite U.S. schools". ) Of course there are worldwide MOOC classes, but limiting access to classroom Computer Science education would help.
Of course. Because no one else, anywhere in the world, knows how to hack. Or understands computer science.
Pro Tip: Get a passport and travel around a bit. You'll find that there are bright people everywhere, and often they have indoor plumbing and stuff.
Heck, in some places they even have universities (even in China). What a shocker!
No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
Used by countries the world over. "No, your people can't come to our country for this or that conference/function/speech, etc. You guys piss us off about something or other, so we're going to make a stink about it.
This is nothing new, nor is it especially interesting. It's just a (not so) friendly reminder to the Chinese that we don't like their attempts (both successful and unsuccessful) at espionage (both industrial and political). That we do it to them and others is irrelevant. This is a political ploy with a long and storied tradition.
No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
The US has been guilty of pervasive industrial espionage for a very long time. The whole US regime is just an extension of corporate power. It always disgusts when, when I hear Americans talk of democracy. At least in China the opposite is true, corporate power is largely an extension of the regime, and however opressive, there appears to be a genuine attempt to improve social conditions instead of just boosting shareholder profit.
All these accusations levelled at China, seem merely to be a distraction from the real problems in the United States. The US regime has become a kind of Hyper Stasi, with much souped up surveillance over its original East German template, and of course with similar murder harassment, and imprisonment without trial of opponents, in much the same way.
That, and it doesn't look like the US wants much from the Chinese aside from a compliant labor pool.
Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
I mean those people create _actual_ harm.
China cannot harm people outside China in any significant way, and should they ever do, your local government would at least protest. However no western government ever protests against the US... even when they abduct people.
China doesn't even run large sigint installations in Germany the way the US does.
Jesus, what kind of a racist asshole are you? Denying some random Chinese kid education in a bid to fulfil some supremacist fantasy, seriously WTF is wrong with you?
You're aware that there are 56 ethnic groups that make up the Chinese population, and that they are not all ethnically Han, right?
Or are you a racist asshole who believes that the basis for the denial is going to be that they're Han, rather than their nationality, which has diddley squat to do with their race?
Pro Tip: Get a passport and travel around a bit. You'll find that there are bright people everywhere, and often they have indoor plumbing and stuff.
If you're telling an American to go travel, you'll first have to explain that there is part of the planet that is outside of US, Canada and Mexico . .. .. .. .. .. ..
- Then you should explain the concept that people outside of those 3 countries do not always speak English
- and that they have sovereign countries with laws differing from those of the US (1)
- and that getting there likely requires more than a car
- and that people outside of those 3 countries might not be Christian, or Muslims (2)
- and that Americans usually cannot bring their guns with them when traveling internationally (3)
- and that spending a week in Paris doesn't qualify as "seeing all of Europe"
In fact, while I commend the idea of getting more Americans to travel internationally, I suspect you're setting yourself up for a lot of hard work.
1: Judging from posts on Slashdot, the prevailing sentiment is that the World is subject to US laws
2: Judging from Fox News, those are the only 2 type of people in existence
3: See signs when passing from El Paso, US, to Ciudad Juarez, MX
Well, a compliant labor pool and maybe a few weeks grace on this month's loan payment.
Isn't part of being a hacker the ability to get into somewhere without the knowledge of that somewhere's owner? Of course there is a good and dark side to that. But lets just focus on the good (albeit, black hat)
Maybe the success of a hacker can be first determined by their appearance to the event. Immunity to the imposition expressed.
Doesn't say anything in there about helping anybody but us. Doesn't say our rules apply (or should be applied) to anybody but us either. I've also noticed that much of the Bill of Rights refers to 'the rights of the citizens'. Just being on US soil doesn't mean the Constitution applies to you - if it did, it would make it nearly impossible to deport illegal aliens - it would violate several of their Constitutional rights to deport them if the Constitution applied.
I'm just pointing out that this isn't a Constitutional issue, at least not on the face of it. The US Government has complete authority to select who it will admit and who it will deny based on any criteria the government chooses to apply. Now (theoretically) our government is bound by Constitutional law when dealing with our citizens and is (theoretically) answerable to the will of our citizens. We are still (technically) a Republic.
We do have international obligations to honor, however. Like every other country on the planet bar none, we will only obey even our own rules only when it benefits us to do so. This isn't a matter of right or wrong, it's just so. Argue political philosophy all you want, in the end no country does anything but what it thinks is best for it's [people|rulers|bottom line]. That "free speech" thing you mentioned - that only applies to US Citizens, and only while they are on US Soil. We tend to extend those rights to anybody that's here, but non-US citizens can/should not count on it.
Yes, I know - that's exactly the kind of reasoning that leads to US torture of foreign nationals, the Guantanamo Bay fiasco, and many other not-so-nice things our government has done on our behalf. Not saying it's right, just saying it looks to me like it's so.
I heard Def Con was cancelled this year anyways...
Which assumes that the US legal system applies. Why should it? It's a corrupt system controlled by a corrupt government.
That's like claiming Nazi Germany did nothing wrong because the Nazi courts did not convict Hitler.
Soap, ballot, then ammo.
Even if you want to get in the jury box you only get a chance what, once every year or two, and if you're even vaguely interesting you're likely to have either the prosecution, defense, or both see you discharged.
Pretty sure by that thread of thought soap and ballot are pretty questionable as well: What changes have *YOU* wrought recently either through force of word, or through force of vote?
to finish 'integrating' Native Americans into the 'American' racial type.
The Chinese may say they're keeping their diversity open, but go and look at how they're actually treating those other 55 ethnic groups...
Won't the organizers just move the conference to Canada (or wherever) if they do this kind of stuff and people can't attend?
He didn't talk about Han, and given that there are 292 languages in China it is pretty obvious that the 56 ethnic groups you mention and who are officially recognized by China do not represent the whole of China. And yes, someone who wants to deny education solely based on nationality, when it was previously possible, is a racist asshole. Besides all that, science is universal. Once you start limiting and nationalizing it, your research will go down the gutter within a decade or so. With a "reverse brain drain" the quality of US science would indeed decline very rapidly, since the US educational system is incapable of providing enough smart and educated people for top universities and centers of excellence.
The implied ending to "Yes we can" is "do whatever the hell we want"
Good leaders run toward problems, bad leaders hide from them.
What do you think will the net effect be? It might work this year, and next year you'll see the conference move abroad, costing you not only income from tourism but also the ability to sneak your spooks easily into the con.
I sometimes really wonder if the responsible parties in the US are acting dumb or whether they are.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
They've heard that the Chinese are confusionists, and that doesn't go with their ideas of law and order
That shouldn't be any problem what-so-ever
Them Chinese being confusionists they got confused all the time, and easily confused people can be easily conned
Yeah, the world is kind of concerned about hackers at the moment, but China isn't the source that is of concern.
...why US "hacker conferences" are considered pretty much a joke these days, there you go.
Even if these governments have as much as a determined "insider" working for over a year(?), changing jobs to maximize his data collection with top secret clearance (but I grant you, it is hardly out of the realm of possibility, they could very well have much more) so what?
What dirt could they have on the U.S. that could cause a revolution? Maybe they have proof that Obama illegally helped his aunt stay in the U.S. Or maybe they have some damaging e-mails about Clinton's involvement in Benghazi.
Yawn.
The difference is that the Chinese (and many other authoritarian governments) long ago left the U.S. behind in the scope of their corruption (like I said, we're talking HUNDREDS of BILLIONS of dollars from various estimates. There was an amusing article in the NYTimes asking "if the Chinese money supply has DOUBLED why hasn't inflation spiked?" The answer of course is that a lot of this money was stashed away.)
Of course, the U.S. has more than its share of corruption, unfortunately it is LEGAL :( It is called lobbyists and the buying of votes (Supreme Court Citizen's United).
So while the Chinese may be able to inflict horrific damage in a cyberwar, blackmail isn't (likely) to be of much use. And it hits the Chinese elite where it hurts the most, in their grip on power (and in their pocketbooks!).
well it could be just about racism against people who look chinese you nitpicker you.
you would be hard pressed to find anyone who would consider those 56 groups as different races. not that it matters since that's not what racism means nowadays(get over it).
world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
Hay, when they apply for an entry visa they should call themselves "Obama's Black Girls Coming Home."
Customs Pervs will salute that one for sure.
Defcon should think of hosting in a free country instead of the USA
Instead of banning them, we should be inviting their hackers over here and either bugging them or turning them. Isn't this spycraft 101?
--- Generation X: The first generation to have SIG lines inferior to their parents... ---
Presentation: Chinese Cyber Espionage: The #1 Threat to National Security?
Check this out at Cryptome: http://cryptome.org/2014/05/defcon-spy-backing.htm
See also on Cryptome's front page:
Note the article describes how James Clapper will attend.
There you have it, dear readers, ugly out-group homogeneity bias on display by the U.S. government. Every Chinese citizen is deemed to be a spy. Why? Because DEFCON is actually a platform for the U.S. intelligence community and they wouldn't dare entertain dissenting opinions that might reveal American spies for what they are: the Praetorian Guard of the corporate elite. As you, John Stockwell, Bill Blum, Noam Chomsky, Peter Dale Scott and many other researchers have found.
Lots of garage sales. Ebay auctions. Less waste. More money to spend on services.
Since America has become a service economy we need people to stop buying cheap chinese crap and buy American's services and the products of American craftsmen, farmers, etc.
ironic captcha: venture
They are throwing a temper tantrum over being banned from Def Con, why the fuck are they banned from Def Con? Arguably some of the best players in the entire world as far as gaming is concerned are coming out of China so to speak... What the fuck is this extreme jealousy + Ban Issue. It looks like some serious ugly troll spammers are , who by the way barely have jack shit to do with the term troll to begin with but are one ;) if you know what I mean. Ugly and fucking annoying. Some people call them SHIT DISTURBERS , why? Because that's what they do. They go around and disturb the peace. What peace? Well obviously us gamers have our own way of doing things outside of people who aren't frequent computer operators or gamers...
What would the world be like if I had credit for all of my art featured in the game World of Warcraft?
What would the world be like if I got paid for Charlie the unicorn merchandise; based on the fact that I came up w/ the
IDEA for the character...= D $_$
Are there talks that don't make it on youtube?
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=defcon
You ban the chinese. You avoid getting information that they could posibly provide to you to secure your systems. The other chinese that don't go to the conference keep doing their stuff cause the others couldn't give you the information. What you win? Please stop being stupid. Besides those conferences and papers go in the open. This is not a way to protest. Besides the NSA does more spoinage than anyone in this world. You should protest about the violation of your civil rights in your own country by those hipocryts that do it in the name of fighting terrorism.
http://www.newsweek.com/israel-wont-stop-spying-us-249757
What an awful prospect, at least for those who are not US citizens!
I think Americans should stay in the US, and thus the world would be a safer place, outside the US (it does exist).
It's so fortunate that US laws do not apply every where a US citizen places his feet, but will they ever accept that fact?
The USA has always considered itself to be bigger and better than the rest of the planet, despite the obvious harm they do, physically, politically, environmentally and...almost ever other *ally you can think of. It's well past the time that they should be obliged to live with the rest of the planet, not against it as they've been doing for years.
If the NSA was banned who could the people blame the damage on? Same for all the other Gov run organizations. The average US person needs a scapegoat, as they couldn't accept the fact that the US isn't the Best and the Biggest, especially with it's recent blunders.
Perhaps the DefCon planners could move it to a more accomodating venue, like Antigua.
But don't plan to sail back afterwards.
--
We're monsters. We all are. We're history's most average monsters. -- Ryan North
It's racist to forbid a certain race of people from attending a civilian public conference.
People post on the internet anyway. The information will become free, so unless the US creates a great firewall of USA, they aren't going to stop the information from reaching other countries anyway.
The US, by following through on this threat, would create a precedent for similar actions at other venues, and for other countries to follow suit.
It's a short sighted and immoral suggestion. Which individual suggested this action again?
"Everyone knows that vi vi vi is the number of the beast" -- Richard Stallman