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US May Prevent Chinese Hackers From Attending Def Con, Black Hat
Taco Cowboy (5327) links to a report from Reuters that says "Washington is considering using visa restrictions to prevent Chinese nationals from attending popular summer hacking conferences in Las Vegas as part of a broader effort to curb Chinese cyber espionage, a senior administration official said Saturday. The official said that Washington could use such visa restrictions and other measures to keep Chinese from attending the August Def Con and Black Hat events to maintain pressure on China after the United States this week charged five Chinese military officers with hacking into U.S. companies to steal trade secrets."
Good move US, isolate yourself from the rest of the world, so we don't have to do it.
See how that goes for you. Moves like this will only make the next Con's happen in a non totalitarian country, your loss.
PS: Isn't the 2nd amendment's sole purpose to prevent your government from acting against the people? Can you tell me what the f* you're waiting for?
Bar members of the Chinese military from attending. Even that is purely symbolic.
Someone should tell Obama that in American we don't bar people based on race or nationality alone.
Keep in mind. The US sets the standard. If we start doing things like this, don't whine when the China does the same thing. They could make the same case for any conference on any topic. If Americans come, they will steal XYZ.
Since the US is under such an oppressive regime, it's better to be denied entry than the other thing that usually happens over there: detention with no accusation.
yeah this is the way to do it. Look forward to going to defcon 2015, Beijing, China
If the government wants to stop Chinese from hacking US companies, it should limit the number of Chinese students studying Computer Science in American universities. That would cut the number of skilled Chinese hackers, and would increase the number of places in American universities for American students. ( See the article "Chinese flock to elite U.S. schools". ) Of course there are worldwide MOOC classes, but limiting access to classroom Computer Science education would help.
After all the reports of Chinese based hackers penetrating every nook and cranny of Federal and Commercial Defense assets over the last couple of years this seams a case of closing the barn door long after the horse has left...
Pretty much. I'm sure people are going to froth at the mouth and all the rest until you post stories like this.
Om, nomnomnom...
Then we could stop buying goods from China and watch them collapse.
SJWs are the new boogeyman. -Me
Then China wouldn't have any dollars to roll into Treasury Bonds and we'd collapse.
Globalization is a bitch.
[Fuck Beta]
o0t!
Given how much they've already stolen from us and other First World countries, it would be a good thing.
Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
you had me until breitbart
They're probably all running XP on their laptops, so keeping them out would significantly cut down on the number of vulnerabilities floating around the con WiFi.
The Chinese don't have solid proof to the level that the US has on the Chinese. The Chinese only can cite a person that handed over US secrets, while the US can cite private and public sector examples (much less Chinese history of stealing from their own).
That, and it doesn't look like the US wants much from the US aside from a compliant labor pool.
Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
Had she came through the Mexican border and dropped an anchor baby, she would be set to a path of citizenship no doubt.
Or, she could've come through before that Reagen policy thingy. What was that called back then? Oh yeah, AMNESTY.
(the chance of R hero being elected today, ZERO)
Recently finished up my 8 years in in Navy, last for were spent working alongside NSA, when you say "China's in every nook and crany" i't for the most part just bs malware...China is actually the #1 intruder we CATCH...it's the ones that we dont know about that to be worried about. Also, Defcon is all about freedom of information, i find it rather counter-productive to limit what it stands for...espeically comming form US with our "freedom of speech"
The only solid (and court-tested) proof exists on the Chinese against the US (and about every First World country).
Snowden will only count when he and his case comes before a US court. Until then, any statements, materials, or positions held by him / his supporters are only conjecture.
Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
There's always the rest of the world(read: countries within the NATO-defined First World) that doesn't want the US's head on a plate.
Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
You had me at "breitbart". You had me at "breitbart".
Look where all this talking got us, baby.
When the US govt starts dictating who is allowed to come to your conferences you need to move the conference. Same as the AIDS research conferences have been held anywhere except the US since the 80s because from 1987 to 2009 the US govt banned people with AIDS from traveling to the US.
It's already been hacked. They offered me cash to go there in their stead.
Ok, the U.S. (through the NSA) has been revealed (through Snowden) to be able to:
1) record and retain EVERY phone call made in an ENTIRE country (actually two, the Bahamas and Afghanistan I think)
2) hack into the e-mail of at least some world leaders (for example: Germany, not exactly weak in the technology department)
3) subvert (and exploit?) the standards for some of the world's most widely used security protocols
4) hack into the networks of Huawei to view source code (and change it?), one of the largest vendors of routers and other critical network gear
5) collect and retain for later data mining, the text and metadata for hundreds of MILLIONS (billions?) of people for YEARS
6) record conversations, videos and other intel through devices even when they appear to be OFF
7) has planted HARDWARE back doors in the equipment used worldwide for computing and communications
and on and on...
So why can't they tell China to STOP HACKING our networks for business advantage or ELSE
1) release the e-mails and other documents showing the favors given to the families of the top Chinese officials
2) publish the electronic money trail where the HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS of dollars worth of bribes have gone (at that scale you don't use scraps of paper)
- this includes MONEY and other assets like property illegally squirreled ABROAD, which may be an offense (under Chinese law) punishable by DEATH
3) publish information regarding kept mistresses of the marriage officials of the elite, their names, dates of assignation, children born out of wedlock, assets
- throw in pictures (videos?) and every tabloid would have a field day
4) detail the political "assassinations" (sometimes literal!) and other dirty deals the elite have done to get into and remain in power
It appears that as a byproduct of their goal(?) of ferreting out security threats to the U.S. (or just plain building their capabilities) the NSA has a treasure trove of information that could topple MANY corrupt, authoritarian governments. Of course the U.S. is not immune to corruption but (I read) the (illegal) corruption in the U.S. is measured in the millions not billions of dollars. That's to be distinguished from the legal forms of corruption, lobbying, that plagues the U.S. :(
The NSA, starting from WWII, has had many decades (and a budget in the tens of billions A YEAR) to build up their technological supremacy (as well as being the single largest employer of mathematicians on the planet. Think of what THAT means). That is not an insignificant amount of money, it DWARFS most countries entire defense budgets! Also remember that the U.S. (and to a lessor extent Britain) are the CREATOR of the Internet as well as the modern computer; remember that Google, Microsoft, Facebook, Twitter, Apple, Cisco, Intel, IBM, AMD, ARM, Nvidia are all Anglo-American companies. Think of all the "backdoor" connections that have been made over the past half-century at informal (high school/college buddies), formal (legal demands for information) and top secret levels (matter of national security or else go to prison). It's at the point where, to a foreign government, every CPU made or designed in America (basically all of them) and every packet (sent from America) must be suspect.
So the Chinese have MUCH much more to fear from the U.S. If they don't want a "digital Pearl Harbor" they would be wise to play by (America's) rules.
Why are they singling out the Chinese? Don't throw statistics at me. There are French, Israeli, Egyptian, South Korean, Japanese, and on down the line who've hacked facets of the US Government and US Companies. If you're going to go down this road, you have to disallow everyone. I'm not saying you should go down this road. Then again, I aspire to be a Chinese Citizen.
If the government wants to stop Chinese from hacking US companies, it should limit the number of Chinese students studying Computer Science in American universities. That would cut the number of skilled Chinese hackers, and would increase the number of places in American universities for American students. ( See the article "Chinese flock to elite U.S. schools". ) Of course there are worldwide MOOC classes, but limiting access to classroom Computer Science education would help.
Of course. Because no one else, anywhere in the world, knows how to hack. Or understands computer science.
Pro Tip: Get a passport and travel around a bit. You'll find that there are bright people everywhere, and often they have indoor plumbing and stuff.
Heck, in some places they even have universities (even in China). What a shocker!
No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
Used by countries the world over. "No, your people can't come to our country for this or that conference/function/speech, etc. You guys piss us off about something or other, so we're going to make a stink about it.
This is nothing new, nor is it especially interesting. It's just a (not so) friendly reminder to the Chinese that we don't like their attempts (both successful and unsuccessful) at espionage (both industrial and political). That we do it to them and others is irrelevant. This is a political ploy with a long and storied tradition.
No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical. --Niels Bohr
The US has been guilty of pervasive industrial espionage for a very long time. The whole US regime is just an extension of corporate power. It always disgusts when, when I hear Americans talk of democracy. At least in China the opposite is true, corporate power is largely an extension of the regime, and however opressive, there appears to be a genuine attempt to improve social conditions instead of just boosting shareholder profit.
All these accusations levelled at China, seem merely to be a distraction from the real problems in the United States. The US regime has become a kind of Hyper Stasi, with much souped up surveillance over its original East German template, and of course with similar murder harassment, and imprisonment without trial of opponents, in much the same way.
That, and it doesn't look like the US wants much from the Chinese aside from a compliant labor pool.
Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
I mean those people create _actual_ harm.
China cannot harm people outside China in any significant way, and should they ever do, your local government would at least protest. However no western government ever protests against the US... even when they abduct people.
China doesn't even run large sigint installations in Germany the way the US does.
I thought it was via H1-B.
If you were me, you'd be good lookin'. - six string samurai
Pro Tip: Get a passport and travel around a bit. You'll find that there are bright people everywhere, and often they have indoor plumbing and stuff.
If you're telling an American to go travel, you'll first have to explain that there is part of the planet that is outside of US, Canada and Mexico . .. .. .. .. .. ..
- Then you should explain the concept that people outside of those 3 countries do not always speak English
- and that they have sovereign countries with laws differing from those of the US (1)
- and that getting there likely requires more than a car
- and that people outside of those 3 countries might not be Christian, or Muslims (2)
- and that Americans usually cannot bring their guns with them when traveling internationally (3)
- and that spending a week in Paris doesn't qualify as "seeing all of Europe"
In fact, while I commend the idea of getting more Americans to travel internationally, I suspect you're setting yourself up for a lot of hard work.
1: Judging from posts on Slashdot, the prevailing sentiment is that the World is subject to US laws
2: Judging from Fox News, those are the only 2 type of people in existence
3: See signs when passing from El Paso, US, to Ciudad Juarez, MX
Well, a compliant labor pool and maybe a few weeks grace on this month's loan payment.
Doesn't say anything in there about helping anybody but us. Doesn't say our rules apply (or should be applied) to anybody but us either. I've also noticed that much of the Bill of Rights refers to 'the rights of the citizens'. Just being on US soil doesn't mean the Constitution applies to you - if it did, it would make it nearly impossible to deport illegal aliens - it would violate several of their Constitutional rights to deport them if the Constitution applied.
I'm just pointing out that this isn't a Constitutional issue, at least not on the face of it. The US Government has complete authority to select who it will admit and who it will deny based on any criteria the government chooses to apply. Now (theoretically) our government is bound by Constitutional law when dealing with our citizens and is (theoretically) answerable to the will of our citizens. We are still (technically) a Republic.
We do have international obligations to honor, however. Like every other country on the planet bar none, we will only obey even our own rules only when it benefits us to do so. This isn't a matter of right or wrong, it's just so. Argue political philosophy all you want, in the end no country does anything but what it thinks is best for it's [people|rulers|bottom line]. That "free speech" thing you mentioned - that only applies to US Citizens, and only while they are on US Soil. We tend to extend those rights to anybody that's here, but non-US citizens can/should not count on it.
Yes, I know - that's exactly the kind of reasoning that leads to US torture of foreign nationals, the Guantanamo Bay fiasco, and many other not-so-nice things our government has done on our behalf. Not saying it's right, just saying it looks to me like it's so.
I heard they were moving it to the CNCC Grand Hotel in Beijing?
you had me until breitbart
That's nice, now go read the article and what will you see? Oh that's right, an actual ICE report(including metrics) that lists what they've been doing. That was later picked up by some other news services, damn that reality check.
Om, nomnomnom...
What's funny is I had a green card when I was doing some work in the US back 12-15 years ago, and considered seriously becoming a US citizen(from Canada). What burns my ass, is that if I follow the rules I could be waiting upwards of a decade. While people who enter illegally can skip the entire process, get a pat on the head, and basically gloat in the face of the rule of law. What the purpose of even having the rule of law, if no one is going to enforce it? And at the very worst, actively work against it because of their ideology--instead of "doing it the correct way."
Om, nomnomnom...
They've heard that the Chinese are confusionists, and that doesn't go with their ideas of law and order.
Ezekiel 23:20
Then I guess all the corporations who let China build cheap crap for the US are traitors? And everyone buying something "Made in China" is as well?
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Unfortunately the US would also collapse, so it would be cutting off your nose to spite your face. The US economy needs cheap Chinese goods to make those extremely low paid service jobs it is based on viable. What do you think would happen if two thirds of Walmart's shelves were empty?
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
He didn't talk about Han, and given that there are 292 languages in China it is pretty obvious that the 56 ethnic groups you mention and who are officially recognized by China do not represent the whole of China. And yes, someone who wants to deny education solely based on nationality, when it was previously possible, is a racist asshole. Besides all that, science is universal. Once you start limiting and nationalizing it, your research will go down the gutter within a decade or so. With a "reverse brain drain" the quality of US science would indeed decline very rapidly, since the US educational system is incapable of providing enough smart and educated people for top universities and centers of excellence.
The implied ending to "Yes we can" is "do whatever the hell we want"
Good leaders run toward problems, bad leaders hide from them.
"Under the Obama administration"
You say that as if anything would have been different 14 years ago. Obama and ICE are still deporting lots of people. We still have a border with Mexico so it's a good way to sneak in.
The comment you made is lazy and stupid and has nothing to do with the topic at hand.
>>"ad space available -- low rates!!!"
What do you think will the net effect be? It might work this year, and next year you'll see the conference move abroad, costing you not only income from tourism but also the ability to sneak your spooks easily into the con.
I sometimes really wonder if the responsible parties in the US are acting dumb or whether they are.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Yeah, the world is kind of concerned about hackers at the moment, but China isn't the source that is of concern.
King Canute used the tide as an example of something he couldn't stop. Similarly illegal imigrants are so much of a part of the US economy that there is not seen to be a hope or point in stopping them, hence the "pat on the head, and basically gloat in the face of the rule of law".
In my town there were tons of complaints about the little park downtown, where the illegal Mexicans/Brazilians (mainly) hung out every morning from like 6-9am for scummy contractors who would drive to the curb and pick out a few for 'day work', for miniscule pay. The mayor decided to start sending the cops there every morning and arrest any illegal immigrants - the ACLU or something like that took it to court and got the court to say that he couldn't legally have *illegal* immigrants arrested (and attempt to deport them). ... meanwhile, of course, they can apply to the local school system for ESL classes and school for their kids, which my tax dollars to the town pays for. Funny how "illegal" somehow means you get all the benefits you want, while me being a legal citizen means I get taxed to pay for it.
(the chance of R hero being elected today, ZERO)
Very insightful. He's dead.
Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
Immigration status doesn't really have much to do with basic human rights.
At least, not in civilized countries.
Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
Apparently, he hit a nerve.
And why would Clinton have banned the Chinese from DefCon? They were helping get Al Gore elected that year.
If you think I voted for Trump because of this post, you're wrong. I voted for Dr. Jill Stein of the Green Party. Again.
well it could be just about racism against people who look chinese you nitpicker you.
you would be hard pressed to find anyone who would consider those 56 groups as different races. not that it matters since that's not what racism means nowadays(get over it).
world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
I didn't make that one up. Just quoting someone else (and I truly can't remember who. Sorry)
Defcon should think of hosting in a free country instead of the USA
As to the first part, if they are incorporated in the US there's an arguable case for that. As for the second, I'd instead target those who wrote the import/export laws, rather than those who, in obeying them, purchase legally imported goods.
OTOH, given that treason is defined quite specifically in the constitution, they may be traitors, but they haven't committed treason.
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
Instead of banning them, we should be inviting their hackers over here and either bugging them or turning them. Isn't this spycraft 101?
--- Generation X: The first generation to have SIG lines inferior to their parents... ---
King Canute used the tide as an example of something he couldn't stop. Similarly illegal imigrants are so much of a part of the US economy that there is not seen to be a hope or point in stopping them, hence the "pat on the head, and basically gloat in the face of the rule of law".
Oh please. The only people making an excuse that immigrants are a "part of the economy" are people who don't want to enforce the law. I remember here in Ontario when they changed the law to allow crop pickers in, and basically forced out everyone who'd been doing it for years. Now we've got a temporary foreign workers(TFW) program, and people have had enough.
If Canada's population can figure it out and pressure politicians, can't figure out why Americans can't.
Om, nomnomnom...
I'm not making excuses, I'm pointing out what has happened. The two speed situation annoys me as well (since a friend had to jump through a lot of hoops to prove she wasn't just marrying a US citizen for citizenship), but I can see how those who want to retain an easily controlled underclass have driven things to the point where the situation has become what it is.
you had me until breitbart
That's nice, now go read the article and what will you see?
Yeah...uh, by the time I closed the annoying pop-ups and stopped the auto-playing video commercial that was loaded, I decided NOT to read the article. Chew on that reality.
Perhaps the DefCon planners could move it to a more accomodating venue, like Antigua.
But don't plan to sail back afterwards.
--
We're monsters. We all are. We're history's most average monsters. -- Ryan North
Yeah...uh, by the time I closed the annoying pop-ups and stopped the auto-playing video commercial that was loaded, I decided NOT to read the article. Chew on that reality.
That's nice. After all, what does it take to pause something, and close a popup these days? 8 seconds, 10 seconds? Apparently that's too much effort. Why are you using the internet without an adblocker anyway? Besides pure laziness.
Om, nomnomnom...
That's nice. After all, what does it take to pause something, and close a popup these days? 8 seconds, 10 seconds? Apparently that's too much effort.
That is nice, isn't it? But you're repeating yourself.
I've long been in the habit of quickly bouncing off sites that use annoying advertising tactics like breitbart.com. Personally, I wouldn't link to such a site in this or any other forum. But that's just me. You obviously feel differently.
In any case, the FACT that Andrew Breitbart was an ideological blowhard had nothing to do with my comment to your post. I just don't like douchey sites that pull that kind of cheap advertising crap.
Why are you using the internet without an adblocker anyway? Besides pure laziness.
Not that it's any of your business, but on my personal devices I DO use an adblocker. This might come as a shock to you, but sometimes folks access the internet on computers they don't own. It just so happens that I was using my sister-in-law's laptop when I followed that link you posted. The fact that you so quickly resorted to an insult without considering that possibility says way more about the rigor of your thinking than mine.
Cheers!
It's racist to forbid a certain race of people from attending a civilian public conference.
People post on the internet anyway. The information will become free, so unless the US creates a great firewall of USA, they aren't going to stop the information from reaching other countries anyway.
The US, by following through on this threat, would create a precedent for similar actions at other venues, and for other countries to follow suit.
It's a short sighted and immoral suggestion. Which individual suggested this action again?
"Everyone knows that vi vi vi is the number of the beast" -- Richard Stallman