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Harley-Davidson Unveils Their First Electric Motorcycle
Major Blud writes Harley-Davidson has unveiled their first electric motorcycle called "Project LiveWire." The bike is currently not for sale and detailed specifications are scarce. Harley plans on taking it on a demonstration tour of the U.S. for the next year to gather customer feedback. "The new LiveWire won’t make the distinctive 'potato-potato-potato' chug that Harley once tried to patent. Its engine is silent, and the turbine-like hum comes from the meshing of gears. But electric motors do provide better handling and rapid acceleration — with the electric Harley able to go from 0 to 60 mph in four seconds. LiveWire’s design places the engine at the bottom of the bike."
Nice looking bike, but I wonder if they're going to offer something more cruiser-like. I'm certainly not opposed to a "greener" ride, but I'd look a damned fool on one of those.
I sincerely hope they add some sort of noise generator, bikes are dangerous enough already.
"The new LiveWire won’t make the distinctive 'potato-potato-potato' chug that Harley once tried to patent."
I'm pretty sure Livewire can chug in any way it wants, if they include it.
Ezekiel 23:20
I don't think I've ever considered a Harley to sound like a potato.
Harley owners want to be noticed, and without the 120 decibel roar, we won't be paying enough attention to them.
A bike this ineffective at advertising how small the penis of its rider is will surely be a failure!
I can predict that such a motorcycle will never have much of a market. Here's why.
Bikers such as myself appreciate the engine noise their bikes make. It's a marvelous thing. While I personally dislike the noise Harley engines make—they're too damned loud—I like the healthy, high octane growl the 1.2 liter engine I sit just above and behind makes. Then there are the vibrations from the engine. At 90 mph, the engine spins at about 5500 rpm. It's an incredible feeling to sense all that power at my command being exerted.
As you can expect, none of these things are present in an electric bike. It's going to be quite a dull experience to ride an electric bike I think.
It's really quite a simple choice: Life, Death, or Los Angeles.
Ever notice how the queers who own Hollywood always sneak in pro-homo garbage in their movies? Like the queer who "peaks" when Adam Sandler is peeing in Little Nicky, a kids' movie?
The same thing happens with the naked queer law enforcement officer in Wild Hogs when his "hey you guyth!!!" while skinny dipping behavior is portrayed over and over and in a positive light.
In conclusion, this is PERFECT for the middle aged homosexual yuppie Harley rider that would be afraid that he would break a fingernail on a REAL Harley and would be afraid that the vibrations from the garbage flathead motor would be too much stimulation on his prostate after the previous night of massage...
The "won't be paying enough attention to them" is true enough. But the Dead on arrival comment is perhaps not accurate. Well, accurate enough for a Harley rider. But I rode a BMW R75-5 airhead for a decade or so. Quiet, vibration free. But hardly dull.
How will they make it leak oil and break down like normal Harleys?
Only the State obtains its revenue by coercion. - Murray Rothbard
I bet 50% of the energy goes into the straight pipe boom speakers. potada potada potada....
Seriously, it's cheaper and it doesn't annoy the shit out of everyone else. I hear the Sybian is great.
The sound and the fury are great; there is no denying that. But I would be very interested in an electric bike that just runs. No oil, no fuel, no maintenance. Just a ultra-reliable ride.
Easy it will be made err assembled in america or it will be history in the Making as Harley davidson finally make an efficient engine!
They could always digitize the sound of the Harley. That would be cool.
Harley Davidson is rebranding itself as Hardley Audible?
Science advances one funeral at a time- Max Planck
It's electric storage that is the problem. Fix the range problem, and I'm not talking about the average or median range here, and we"ll all be golden.
Time is what keeps everything from happening all at once.
Your thinking about the engine noise will totally change after you drive an electric bike that is faster and better performing than any gas bike could ever be... You'll pull up next to someone with an old fashioned gas bike roaring and making noise and fumes and you'll just effortlessly smoke them while they are roaring and straining to keep up with you.... and you'll start to think of the noise not as power but as "poser"... like a fake strong man groaning to lift a tiny weight or a rock guitar player making that strained face as if it it takes physical effort to play. It will happen to you...
I think a screaming electric motor might sound pretty good.
>"with the electric Harley able to go from 0 to 60 mph in four seconds."
Wow, so that makes it only twice as slow as my old gas Kawasaki. Extreme noise (because people think loud = performance, which it does not) and vibration (along with poor handling and old tech) are Harley trademarks... I can't imagine why they would be interested in producing such a model.
FYI.... these motorbikes are not silent. Watch the video.
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
maybe you have to see south park season 13 episode 12 'the f word'. I have about the same view about bikers.
Wow, so that makes it only twice as slow as my old gas Kawasaki.
but twice as fast as your gas Harley.
They'll finally have a model that doesn't sound like an elephant with a bad case of gas. :(
I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwHO6sC7Lhs
Then it's an entirely different experience with sound and feeling. That rotor whine is terrifying and the tire noise... damn. It's like driving an insane predator drone.
And now that Tesla has freed up the patents for their superchargers, you'll be able to plug an electric bike into something that uses that connection and current (not necessarily the Tesla ones). Given that the motorcycle battery packs are much smaller than the car packs, I don't expect that a 2-minute charge to full would be out of the question.
That might almost be quicker than walking up to a cashier and paying money, and certainly would be quicker if you're not the first person in line.
Ask me about repetitive DNA
Back in 2000 I had some students who put together an electric bike that could do 0-60km/h in about 5 seconds (the Harley doing miles is of course much more impressive). With a range of around 100km. Fourteen years ago. With lead-acid batteries. Put together by undergraduate students.
With vast advances in batteries, motors, everything that range problem is now around equivalent to the "range problem" with a tank of fuel. There's still a fast charging problem but the "range problem" has effectively vanished unless you are talking about an offroad vehicle with nowhere to recharge.
In the summary it mentions electric motors provide "better handling". Handling in vehicle terms is a function of chassis rigidity and geometry, suspension and a lot of other very complex factors. None of which are related to the powerplant itself. Admittedly they have stated the motor is placed low in the chassis facilitating a low CofG, but that is also something you can do with a IC engine with good design choice. Look at the design of the humble Honda C90. Or a BMW flat twin, or or or or or...
After that bullshit, I didn't bother reading more since it can no longer be considered a reliable article, rather like the zero announcement where it goes on to shout numbers, then mentions quietly that the numbers being quoted everywhere are from the race prepped limited bike prepared for the bonniville attempt.
TMH, too much hype.
I'll believe it if they ever really sell any. I'm tired of listening to d-bags on Harley's violating every noise ordinance without consequence or consideration.
My father always said you had to be a mechanic if you wanted to own one of the old Harleys. :-)
Well I guess things change. In the future you have to be an electrician...
The limits of existing battery chemistries is what will reduce the LiveWire to an expensive hipster commuter toy. A 54 mile range per charge is not sufficient for anything but a typical daily Home - Office - Grocery Store - Home - Recharge cycle and the price will kill consumer interest. No one is going to buy this EV motorcycle for weekend back road twisties or poker runs. Or Track Day. Or pretty much anything else people use motorcycles for.
For electric vehicles to be practical a significant breakthrough in battery technology must occur on two fronts - Batteries must become significantly cheaper, have significantly higher energy density (storage), or both.
One of the many reasons an EV motorcycle makes little sense is that it erases one of the attractions of motorcycles in the first place - Price. $4-12k will buy nearly any Japanese brand you care to consider, brand new off the dealer floor. I absolutely guarantee the LiveWire will cost > $20k, just like the other boutique electric cycles out in the wild. That's well into "fuck it, I'll buy a Prius" territory.
Then, add the "Harley Tax." Ha! And you thought the "pride of ownership / marketing brainwashing tax" only applied to your MacBook! Tell that to people who ride what are essentially farm tractor engines sold for > $20,000.
A brand new Honda CBR 250 costs $4,000 and will get > 50 mpg. http://powersports.honda.com/2...
A Honda VStrom 700 costs $9,000 and gets >60 mpg.
Neither of the two random bikes I listed above needs to be plugged into a 220v outlet for nearly 4 hours to "refuel." You can ride both of them all day on one "charge" of fuel and refill them in 1 minute at any one of hundreds of thousands of fuel stations.
John McCain may have been right about one thing, years ago during his campaign - We need a "Manhattan Project" level of concerted effort into producing an evolutionary leap in battery technology. THAT will change the world - not shoehorning a pile of laptop batteries into a motorcycle frame and calling it the wheel reinvented.
Someone in Milwaukee got tired of watching Elon hog all the media adoration a year or so ago, and decided to create a Halo product that won't break even but will bring young buyers back to Harley Dealerships.
THIS SPACE INTENTIONALLY LEFT BLANK.
As both a Harley Rider and a cyclist I can safely say I have zero interest in this idea. One of the main things I like about my Harley is that motorists can hear it. They seem to be blind to bikes (motor or push) but they always hear my Harley coming.
When I come to a junction on my pushbike it's quite common for a motorist coming out of a side road to slam on their brakes at the last minute because they simply haven't seen me on my pushbike (even worse they'll cut me up). They never, ever fail to notice when I'm on my Harley as you can clearly tell that even if they haven;t seen me they've heard me coming.
Loud pipes save lives.
On which note how they hell are wildlife supposed to know that a vechile is coming when it's making no sound ? The trend towards quiet vechiles is an environmental disaster. At the very least all electric vechiles should have to put out directed ultrasound in front of them to give the poor critters a chance to hear them and get out of the way.
Loud pipes save lives.
Loud pipes don't save lives. Loud paint does.
Eat the rich.
but twice as fast as your gas Harley.
Can a gas harley actually make 0-60 in only eight seconds? Hmm, looks like yes. Even a fat boy can make it in 7.2 seconds. My car can do it in 6.7, but I have to admit it's a $70,000 piece of kit. Well, originally. I paid less. A lot less. It's kind of amazing how poor the performance is on harleys. How do they actually make the bikes perform that poorly?
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Sure it might not sound like a harley. But the acceleration on electric vehicles is insane. All that torque doesn't need windowdressing by sound, it'll just shoot off. It might not be what you expect for a bike, but the idea has merit.
Interestingly they're routing sound from the engine into the passenger compartment so
the engine sounds "good" when you stomp on the gas. Interestingly enough even car
reviewers like this feature.
Low RPM low horsepower air cooled. I know some are probably water cooled, but they're still rather low performers out of the gate.
I switched from a "touring" bike that just about every biker in america seems to ADORE (taken from my experience at biker gatherings and punchy quips thrown at my ride) to a sport touring bike that looks like a crotch rocket but with a much better seating position. Going from a 0-60 of around 9 seconds as well as a horrible handling ride to one that does the same in 2.8 seconds and is beautiful to handle is such an awesome experience. Shame I can't convince the haters to at least try it before they hate.
Karnal
but twice as fast as your gas Harley.
Can a gas harley actually make 0-60 in only eight seconds? Hmm, looks like yes. Even a fat boy can make it in 7.2 seconds. My car can do it in 6.7, but I have to admit it's a $70,000 piece of kit. Well, originally. I paid less. A lot less. It's kind of amazing how poor the performance is on harleys. How do they actually make the bikes perform that poorly?
Making them is the easy part... it's how they manage to sell them that confuses me.
Low RPM low horsepower air cooled.
All that sounds great until you get to the "low reliability" part. And then you need special tools. Might as well drive a VW [original] beetle convertible. You'll look just as anachronistic, it will cost you almost as much, you'll sound just as stupid but not quite as loud, and people will see you! It will break down just as much, but parts are a hell of a lot cheaper and more readily available.
If only harleys would just run forever without literally shaking themselves apart, then they would have a reason to exist beyond fanboyism.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
How will they make it leak oil and break down like normal Harleys?
You obviously haven't owned a Harley in the last 30 years or so.
...an electric bike that is faster and better performing than any gas bike could ever be...
I'm as excited about electrics as the next guy, but there's a fistful of gassers that will run rings around the current crop of electrics on performance measures alone and an armload if you factor range into it. That will change, but I'm not holding my breath for something that fits my needs (fast, comfortable and capable of 500-mile days without gaps in the middle) in the next 5-7 years.
The Livewire has marginally better torque- and power-to-weight ratios than HD's Sportster 883, which isn't a stellar performer by any measure. What it does have is full torque available from zero, and that makes it a good (but not fantastic) stoplight racer.
With optional sound effect machine to make really loud obnoxious exhaust noise so you don't feel left out
Ever heard those crazy bastards claim "loud pipes save lives"?
Which is BS argument. There is NO excuse for most Harley's being as loud as they are. It's just noise pollution. Nobody buys a Harley because they are concerned about their safety.
They uniformly tell me that they see loud pipes as a critical safety measure to make drivers aware that they're there.
Which is a load of crap. I ride a bicycle which makes basically no noise whatsoever and I've managed to never get hit by a car. My safety is primarily dependent on my riding habits. I don't do stupid things and then expect others to compensate for me. Nobody rides a motorcycle because they are deeply concerned about their safety. Furthermore the loud noise is primarily behind you so it does little for safety anyway. People like loud Harley's because they think it is badass and they want to show off.
We've talked about getting a motorcycle for around town use. I work four miles from the office and I feel silly driving a mid-size sedan here daily, especially since I can avoid major highways (except for one traffic light controlled intersection.) I wouldn't take a motorcycle on anything bigger than a two lane road (too many idiots on highways).
Most importantly, the local Harley shop is about three blocks from my house. If it does something strange I can walk it to the shop for repairs.... assuming it has the electric equivalent of a neutral gear.
Occasionally living proof of the Ballmer peak.
umm NO. sound travels in both directions, a bike does not move at sufficient speed for sound to only be behind them.
Apparently you are unfamiliar with the Doppler effect. Even on a Harley making a huge obnoxious racket it is easy to get dangerously close to someone before they hear you.
The benefit of hearing a bike is not for cars on the interstate, it is for pedestrians that will step out in front of you, people that are doing slow speed manoeuvres that may fail to see you in the mirrors but still might hear you coming 20-50 yards behind them.
Safety does not depend on others hearing you. Safety results from proper and responsible bike handling. YOU need to be aware of what is around you. YOU need to ride cautiously and defensively. Ride like a bicycle rider does and presume everyone around you is an idiot unaware of your existence.
Bikers such as myself appreciate the engine noise their bikes make. It's a marvelous thing.
"Marvelous"? It's obnoxious, wasteful and noise pollution. I think people with loud bike are self indulgent a-holes.
As you can expect, none of these things are present in an electric bike
If you think there aren't thrills to be had on a fast electric bike then you are Doing It Wrong.
The sound and the fury are great; there is no denying that.
I'll deny it. The "sound and fury" are obnoxious. There is NO need for it. It is wasteful and self indulgent.
0-60 in 4 seconds seems fast, until you compare it to modern day sport bikes, my old Kawi could hit 0-60 in 2.8 seconds, and that bike is slow compared to newer ones that are out. And believe me 0-60 in 2.8 is ripping fast.. I used to get off that thing every time feeling like they should be illegal, but smiling from ear to damn ear and thankful they were not.. :)
Now, before the Jap vs HD flamewar, I love, and have owned Harley's too, and actually this electric bike looks better than I thought it would. Would be interesting to take it for a spin..
When companies like Zero and Brammo actually produce and sell electric motorcycles, it isn't news. But when Harley-Davidson announces that they will do the same at some point, it's big news.
That said, I do applaud this effort -- the more companies that make electric vehicles, the better.
What, "ElectraGlide" was taken?
Oh, I'm sorry sir, I thought you were referring to me, Mr. Wensleydale.
I bet it will still leak oil.
"assuming it has the electric equivalent of a neutral gear." I don't think there would need to be. An electric engine doesn't need to remain running like a gas engine. You give it power and it goes. Though I think I would be disappointed if there was no need to shift gears. That is half the fun. I like manual transmissions.
Aparently I can edit my post. I just noticed I misunderstood what you said. So strike the "I don't think there would need to be. An electric engine doesn't need to remain running like a gas engine. You give it power and it goes. ".
But will it still be able to leak oil all over your garage floor?
my harley is nearly 15 years old and it runs beautifully... The new engines (the ones that started with the 88ci one back in 1999) are really quite reliable and pleasant to work on when you need to. Tools are simple and plentiful. Honestly if you want to talk about bikes that are a bitch to work on its got to be 80s era Japanese bikes. I had a Yamaha Maxim that had an electrical diagram that would make your head spin and the engines are often so compact that they are incredibly hard to work on, especially on the side of the road.
luckily, while harley has improved its reliability, Japanese bikes have improved their maintainability and right now there are a ton of good bikes on the road, not to mention Victory and Indian and a lot of Euro brands that you didn't see in the states back then. Its a good time to be on 2 wheels.
"In America, first you get the sugar, then you get the power, then you get the women..." -H. Simpson
The electrical complexity of a motorcycle can never get all that egregious, because there's only room for a few dozen yards of wire :) But I take your point about the parts being packed in tight.
I'm in the middle of disconnecting the entire engine bay/undercar harness on my A8 D2 so that I can track down whatever faults are causing it to throw codes intermittently while otherwise working beautifully. Clear codes, drive for miles, then suddenly there's like six codes. I pulled the intake manifold already, and removed most of the harness. I should have done more work on it before I installed the intake manifold, but luckily it seems to have come off without anything happening to the gaskets... There's probably more wiring just under the hood than there was on your entire Yamahahaha, even if you don't count the E-box.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
It appears this one is designed for performance not range. Since that bunch of undergrads 14 years ago got 100km on a relatively low budget I'd say a professionally designed machine with modern batteries could do something with reasonable performance as well as decent range instead of this thing that sacrifices range for performance.
So the main cause of the range problem now is designers thinking that other things are more important. There's probably already long range electric bikes out there with a top speed around highway speed limits.
"Electric Harley" would be an awesome name for a rock band!!!!!
The expensive part comes from sticking a credit card in the spokes to make it sound like a real motorcycle.