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World Health Organization Calls For Decriminalization of Drug Use

An anonymous reader writes: We've known for a while: the War on Drugs isn't working. Scientists, journalists, economists, and politicians have all argued against continuing the expensive and ineffective fight. Now, the World Health Organization has said flat out that nations should work to decriminalize the use of drugs. The recommendations came as part of a report released this month focusing on the prevention and treatment of HIV. "The WHO's unambiguous recommendation is clearly grounded in concerns for public health and human rights. Whilst the call is made in the context of the policy response to HIV specifically, it clearly has broader ramifications, specifically including drug use other than injecting. In the report, the WHO says: 'Countries should work toward developing policies and laws that decriminalize injection and other use of drugs and, thereby, reduce incarceration. ...Countries should ban compulsory treatment for people who use and/or inject drugs." The bottom line is that the criminalization of drug use comes with substantial costs, while providing no substantial benefit.

474 comments

  1. Finally! by XxtraLarGe · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This is one of the most messed-up issues in the history of humanity. Hopefully we'll see an end to the insane war on drugs in our lifetime! Drugs are made more dangerous by being illegal, I don't know why so few of us in the United States didn't learn the lesson from alcohol prohibition.

    --
    Taking guns away from the 99% gives the 1% 100% of the power.
    1. Re: Finally! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Redundant

      Drugs are bad.... OKa ;-)

    2. Re:Finally! by wisnoskij · · Score: 5, Informative

      It might cause a few deaths but it also sustains the multi billion dollar prison industry and employs well over 1 million people in the US alone, and that it just counting the lawfully employed.

      The government profits from illegal drugs even more than drug cartels do.

      --
      Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
    3. Re:Finally! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      2 Viewpoints you may have not considered.

      1: The point on the war on drugs in the US is to ensure select individuals profit from drug trafficking; the NSA gives information to law enforcement all the time per Bill Binney, so there's no reason for it to continue except to bankroll specific banks and government offices and organizations. It's in the interest of literally every other country on the planet to redirect cash flow away from the status quo to bankroll their own programs.

      2: Presently, US Citizens are paying a premium for their medical devices and care to bankroll research the rest of the world benefits from. If you legalize drug and drug trafficking, pharmaceuticals are next. That means 90% increases in HIV medication costs for Africans, and 90% decreases in HIV medication costs in the US.

      I can see a program where select drugs are made legal to provide sufficient competition for select drugs that are truely dangerous; e.g. Heroine and Methamphetamine are truly dangerous substances while peyote, absinthe, and marijuana really are not.

    4. Re:Finally! by David_Hart · · Score: 5, Interesting

      It might cause a few deaths but it also sustains the multi billion dollar prison industry and employs well over 1 million people in the US alone, and that it just counting the lawfully employed.

      The government profits from illegal drugs even more than drug cartels do.

      The reality is that law enforcement, and other areas of the government, used the war on drugs as justification for increased budget, manpower, weapons, laws (search & seizure), etc. Now that the justification has moved towards terrorism, both real and based on hype, and the drug war isn't needed any more. In fact, most law enforcement agencies now have bigger and more expensive toys today (i.e. drones, highly weaponized SWAT teams, etc.) based on terrorism.

      As you said, the one lobby that NEEDS the war on drugs to continue is the US prison industry. From Wikipedia "Drug related charges accounted for more than half the rise in state prisoners. The result, 31 million people have been arrested on drug related charges, approximately 1 in 10 Americans." Granted, a good portion of this includes people who are violent criminals and are also booked on drug charges. However, there can be no denying that if 1 in 10 people are going to jail based on a single type of crime, perhaps it's time to re-evaluate public policies and whether these activities should be considered crimes.
       

    5. Re:Finally! by itsenrique · · Score: 3, Interesting

      It might then surprise you to learn that both Heroin (not in the USA *presently* but in Europe) and methamphetamine are already legal in certain forms for certain diseases. Heroin is used for end-of-life cancer treatment from what I understand in some countries because it is more powerful than morphine for pain relief. Methamphetamine is prescribed for weight loss sometimes still (although is efficacy compared to surgeries is questionable) and for extreme cases of ADD. It is designed to be used orally however and not smoked or injected.

    6. Re:Finally! by Sam36 · · Score: 1, Interesting

      I disagree. I find irony in America's constant pursuit and judgment of those that smoke cigarettes. Yet there is this huge push to 'make everything legal'. As far as health goes, smoking cigs is much better than injecting heroin or smoking meth.

      I think the people that will suffer the worst are the poor. Intelligent, normal income people know what drug use leads to. The people in the poverty underworld (those which will never post to /.), will be hit hardest by easy to reach drugs. That leads to many things, more deaths, more high school drop outs, and less employable people.

    7. Re:Finally! by rholtzjr · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I agree with your comments on this as well. What would we do with all the prison space currently housed by drug-related occupants? That would put a heavy dent in the income of the organizations that manage the prison systems (which are mostly cronies of the politicians). And once the dent is made in their profits, they would lobby to elevate the penalty of some other illegal act to put the profits back into their pockets, say jaywalking or driving while texting is a now mandatory 90 days in prison.

    8. Re:Finally! by strikethree · · Score: 5, Funny

      Hopefully we'll see an end to the insane war on drugs in our lifetime!

      No no no! If you are even slightly "high" you can not be pure and one with God. We absolutely MUST fight against the recreational use of chemicals, any chemicals, that might in any way lead to a sense of euphoria. Life is pain. Pain is suffering. It is only through suffering that we can be close to God. Drugs and drug use is absolute evil. We must go to ANY means necessary to prevent their use.

      Drugs are made more dangerous by being illegal

      Who cares? It is only the evil people that will be affected. It will afflict them with suffering and as we already established, it is only through suffering that we can be close to God.

      I don't know why so few of us in the United States didn't learn the lesson from alcohol prohibition.

      In the 1920s we did not have Echelon and TIA. The NSA and FBI have it all covered now. You can expect a reinstatement of prohibition rather soon. The only lesson that was learned from Prohibition is that without effective enforcement, the evil sinners will continue to seduce the righteous.

      Look, everything is in place for 100% enforcement. All of the sinners will be removed from society so that the righteous will not be distracted from becoming closer to God through suffering. 100% focus on work will ensure that the righteous never stray from the True Path. There will be Heaven on Earth... or Nuclear Apocalypse. It is up to you as to what happens. If you follow the one True Path, there will be pleasure in the afterlife when you have finished toiling and suffering in this fallen world. If you sin, this fallen world will be destroyed so that all may meet their Final Judgement soon.

      All of this absurd talk of weakening the battle for your soul is the work of the devil. The fight will not merely continue, it will intensify! The fate of the entire world is at stake.

      --
      "Someone needs to talk to the tree of liberty about its ghoulish drinking problem." by ohnocitizen
    9. Re:Finally! by wisnoskij · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Granted, a good portion of this includes people who are violent criminals and are also booked on drug charges.

      But that number does not include the likely bigger number of people driven into other crimes because of the illegal nature of their drug addiction. The illegal drug trade not only puts some mostly innocent people in a compromised position, but also fuels the vast majority of crime.

      --
      Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
    10. Re:Finally! by beelsebob · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The problem with smoking is not that it harms your health, it's that it harms other people's health, and makes other people's environment less pleasant to be in. That's why smoking is (typically) banned in public places, or near public buildings, but not banned in the comfort of your own home (that said, even there, it can have severe impacts on children/other members of your family).

    11. Re:Finally! by mcgrew · · Score: 2

      It might cause a few deaths but it also sustains the multi billion dollar prison industry and employs well over 1 million people in the US alone

      None of those jobs help the economy. Why should people be employed in occupations that have no benefit to society whatever and are in fact detrimental to society?

      The government profits from illegal drugs even more than drug cartels do.

      Colorado's pot legalization and the multi-billion dollar alcohol industry shows that governments profit a lot more from legal, regulated drugs than outlawing them.

      I've known drug addicts, and the WHO is also right about compulsory addiction treatment; compulsory treatment flat out doesn't work. The addict has to want to stop, and it's very hard even when they want to. Alcoholics and other drug addicts relapse more often than not after treatment.

      However, should they ever invent the fictional drug in the novel I'm writing (see my journal, the first crude draft is being posted there) I sure hope it's not legal!

    12. Re:Finally! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      I have a 20's Sears catalog with heroin for sale fucking made by Bayer.

    13. Re:Finally! by ganjadude · · Score: 1

      low income housing??

      --
      have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
    14. Re:Finally! by aeschinesthesocratic · · Score: 0, Redundant

      The government profits from illegal drugs even more than drug cartels do.

      I invite you to consider what would happen if we make them legal. The government would tax them to an absurd level, a black market would still exist (look at tax-free cigarettes and their role in criminal revenue), consumption would be more widespread on account of the disintegration of social mores against usage, and we'd be tying a government's income into drug consumption, giving them a perverse incentive to continue the use of said drugs. The government would go from "enemy of the cartels" to "yet another cartel," a title I feel they already have from heavy lobbying by the pharmaceutical industry.

      I'm all for a repeal of the nastier drug laws and an eventual stop to the "War on" mentality, but there has to be a better strategy here than the "legalize it mon" that I hear college students repeat ad nauseum.

    15. Re: Finally! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Privatization ofyou r prisonnsystembis a massive problem in your country. Prisons have a vested interedt not just in penalization for crime but in crime itself. If u dont take ur prisons out of private hands ur belovef republic is finished (even more rhan it visibly is alread). U guys dont see u how we see u -crime ridden. It has precisely zero to do with guns or knives or baseball bats. Its about the rewards of crime

    16. Re:Finally! by Fjandr · · Score: 2

      They profit from them, but do not derive the same sort of power from them. That's why politicians and cops and prosecutors and corrections officers love criminalization of things everyday people do ... well ... every day.

    17. Re:Finally! by Fjandr · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Even if that's the case, how is any of that worse than what we have now?

    18. Re:Finally! by murkwood7 · · Score: 2

      I think the above post is underated

      --
      - X/Y -
    19. Re:Finally! by PrimaryConsult · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I had a silly idea regarding this while visiting California last year. If you've ever walked the streets of either SF or LA at night, you will undoubtedly have found an experience with the homeless similar to that of a zombie movie, except instead of chanting "brains" they're chanting "change". So, once the war on drugs has been ended, some prisons could be converted to compulsory overnight housing: if you do not have a permanent address, and are found unconscious in a public location (either due to sleep or whatever), you get a free bus ride to a former prison for a good night's sleep. The same buses could take you back to the city you were picked up in the morning if you so desire, or you can stick around for 3 hots and a cot (maybe some job counseling and medical care), grab a later bus, whatever. The only prison industry jobs lost would be guard-related. All the administrative, catering, medical, and transport jobs would be retained. Some homeless people have a slightly better life (many of them are too proud/stupid/mentally ill to ask for help but if forced, they'd accept it), and American cities would have an overall better quality of life for all involved.

    20. Re:Finally! by MtViewGuy · · Score: 2

      I would except the recreational drugs have to meet the same USDA and FDA standards for purity and safety for foodstuffs, legal drugs, and alcoholic beverages. In short, the cannabis you can buy legally must NOT have any potentially dangerous additives and THC levels per gram of cannabis have to be standardized. In short, welcome to the real world if you want to grow legal cannabis.

    21. Re: Finally! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Illegal drug use losses me everytime and I'll never understand it. What's the point? We need to keep them illegal and change some laws. We need to spend our time and effort on education and ways to stop drug addiction. All that money could go to a billion other places... quality of life, community, kids... How many people do you know that use drugs other than weed and keep quality of life and money under control... Zero... Doesn't matter if it's slow or fast they all go in the same direction. If they were better educated they would see how drugs are lose / lose for the user. I see exceptions but they are about 2% of the base users.

    22. Re:Finally! by TheRaven64 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I don't see a contradiction (although I'm not an American). I have no problems with people smoking, snorting, injecting, or otherwise consuming any drugs that they want. I do object if they blow smoke in public areas or leave needles (especially used ones) lying around in public places.

      I would be in favour of banning smoking anything in public places (including places of work) and permitting people to take any drugs that they want in their own home. There are some difficult areas (for example, should people with children be allowed to smoke whatever they like at home around their children?) but the general rule of thumb should be that you can do whatever you want to your own body and mind, just don't do it to anyone else.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    23. Re:Finally! by transporter_ii · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If someone breaks into a house, they should be in jail for breaking into a house. I know plenty of people who do drugs and *don't* break into houses or commit other crimes. Also, the high prices are driven by the prohibition of drugs. If they were more affordable, it becomes much less of an issue to break into houses or cars to get money.

      --
      Doctors destroy health, lawyers destroy justice, universities destroy knowledge, religion destroys spirituality
    24. Re:Finally! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes. This.

    25. Re:Finally! by strikethree · · Score: 1

      Thank you. I was considering going with the authoritarian angle: Lazy, crazy, incompetent, but I figured in the current climate, it would not work as an illumination device. Apparently, someone didn't see the illumination from the religious angle either, but I knew that was a risk. I am enjoying the troll moderation though, so it is all okay. :)

      --
      "Someone needs to talk to the tree of liberty about its ghoulish drinking problem." by ohnocitizen
    26. Re:Finally! by davester666 · · Score: 1

      not the gov't, but private corporations who provide these valuable services to gov't.

      --
      Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
    27. Re:Finally! by Kojiro+Ganryu+Sasaki · · Score: 1, Troll

      That seems fairly accurate.

      If you look at it, christianity seems designed for a society where everyone feels like shit and is oppressed, while priests tell you that everything will be better once you're dead (as long as you made sure not to have fun in this life, then you go to hell)

      It seems to be the kind of religion ideally suited for a super authoritarian society.

    28. Re:Finally! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > The illegal drug trade not only puts some mostly innocent people in a compromised position, but also fuels the vast majority of crime.

      You make a mistake if you assume that making drugs legal will fix this. Many of the crimes are ones of desperation: they cannot hold a job while on drugs and therefore, they cannot afford the drugs either. Making drugs cheaper will not help, it will simply mean that more people end up as addicts unable to function in society.

      That said, it seems that decriminalization (but not legalization) combined with better treatment to cure addiction is a viable path.

    29. Re:Finally! by sjames · · Score: 1

      I thought it already was primarily low income housing. You don't see a lot of 1%ers in there.

    30. Re:Finally! by ganjadude · · Score: 1

      good point

      --
      have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
    31. Re:Finally! by sjames · · Score: 2

      I haven't heard much about shootouts over tax-free cigarettes. Not a lot of gang activity there either. Our jails aren't filling up with cigarette smugglers and people caught in possession of untaxed cigarettes.

      The government is hardly the enemy of the cartels. The last thing the cartels want is an end to prohibition. It would destroy their obscene profits and ultimately put them out of business.

      As far as use goes, it might increase a little, but it's not morals preventing most of the drug use now. If it was, people would be even more upset about the damned coke heads on Wall Street and in the *AA. It's mostly that people don't want to be addicts. I doubt that will change.

    32. Re:Finally! by sysrammer · · Score: 1

      Sounds like a good idea. I've been wondering how we're going to get out of the for-profit prison business. I'm sure this would lead to its own problems, but, hey, that's what humans do. Fix a problem, create a problem.

      --
      His ignorance covered the whole earth like a blanket, and there was hardly a hole in it anywhere. - Mark Twain
    33. Re: Finally! by Opportunist · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Are they? Or is it rather the crap that is used to turn a gram of $substance into ten for higher profits?

      There are drugs that are dangerous. No doubt about that. But one really has to wonder how many deaths are actually due to them not being available in a clean, regulated and reliable fashion. How many drug overdoses are due to addicts not knowing just how "potent" the stuff they buy is, and hence how much of it they should take? How many drug related diseases and deaths are due to the various shit cut in to maximize the profit and unsafe, unsanitary ways they are delivered?

      I have a friend working with an organization that "tests" the drugs you can buy. They're basically working on a "don't ask don't tell" base, i.e. they don't give a shit where you got it from and they don't care what you do with it. What they do is analyze what you got and tell you what it is. You'd be surprised if not horrified to learn just WHAT kind of shit is being mixed into drugs. In a nutshell, the additives are usually BY FAR more dangerous than the actual drug itself.

      To put it simply, making various drugs that are now "street only" available legally and reliably, regulated by law with strict requirements for companies producing them to ensure quality would by some margin lower drug related health problems. Even if consumption tripled.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    34. Re:Finally! by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Well, we don't need the drugs anymore for police, but certainly for prisons.

      You can't lock up terrorists that don't exist and expect funding for it.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    35. Re:Finally! by Opportunist · · Score: 2

      The state supplies them with food, why not drugs? If they want to waste their life, why not help them?

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    36. Re:Finally! by Xarvh · · Score: 1

      That's a good idea.

    37. Re:Finally! by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Since the state profits from the taxes but not the "friends" of politicians, it doesn't count.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    38. Re:Finally! by Opportunist · · Score: 2

      What happened to "forge your own destiny" and personal responsibility?

      It may surprise you, but "poor" people are not necessarily dumb people. It may even more surprise you that there are no people (at least I never ever met any) who injected Heroin without absolutely and positively knowing what this will do to them. Yes, people KNOW that they will become addicted to the crap and STILL think it's more attractive to at least escape their life for the 15 minutes that will maybe give them.

      When you're at THAT point, there's little any law can change. If you want people to not reach for drugs, you have to give them first and foremost a reason to.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    39. Re:Finally! by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Actually, I'm fairly sure if people take the right kind of drugs, they will be absolutely and perfectly one with God. Depending on the drug, they may even think they ARE God.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    40. Re:Finally! by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      I have to agree. I'm certain that once all the religious nuts are dead everything will be much better.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    41. Re:Finally! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      not to mention all the political donation the cartels make to keep drugs illegal.

    42. Re: Finally! by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Drug laws are about control and power. And of course, money.

      Imagine there was a drug that is readily available and cheap, with little adversary effect. There's plenty of them, by the way. All illegal. For a good reason. If they were available, people would be happy, no matter how "bad" they're off. Since they're not available, people have to find other ways to get happy.

      And that's where you can force them to work so they can have money so they can buy themselves some kind of entertainment. That doesn't make them happy, but it keeps them struggling for more, hoping to eventually get happy.

      If they were happy, why bother struggling?

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    43. Re:Finally! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I doubt this would work as simply as you described, but this is actually one of the most interesting ideas I've heard regarding the prison "industry". It would do a lot to help bring jails back towards being a place of rehabilitation rather than incarceration, as well.

    44. Re: Finally! by HiThere · · Score: 1

      Actually, many drugs are bad. But not as bad as the results on making them illegal. OTOH, I do think it should continue to be illegal to advertise them. Possibly except to doctors, but I'm not even sure about that exception.

      The thing, is, where do you draw the line? Coffee? Tea? Sugar? Flour? (I could have gone in the other direction too, but the point is there's a gradation. There aren't any sharp boundaries.)

      FWIW, I've seen reviews of research that said that marijuana was dangerous to most people under that age of 23 or 24. Something about a brain process that needed to complete, involving the pruning of neurons.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    45. Re: Finally! by Opportunist · · Score: 2

      Well, by that logic pretty much anything should be outlawed that you can do to your body. Including trans fats and crunch chicken skin. Both are very dangerous, especially in large quantity.

      But... why draw the line at all? How is it my prerogative to tell you how to live and whether, how and when to kill yourself slowly by eating, drinking, snorting or even shooting something that's not healthy for you? And why no ads? Hell, I MISS the ads for cigarettes and booze! They were by some margin the most entertaining ones. Why? Because they advertised having a good time, that's after all what that stuff is there for.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    46. Re:Finally! by HiThere · · Score: 3, Informative

      I've never been sure about the truth of that argument. OTOH, it seems to be true about cocaine addiction. Many cocaine addicts start out quite wealthy, and some continue to be so, but many appeat not to. OTOH, some start out as already failures. Many never seem to get violent, but certainly some do.

      Still, if cocaine were cheap enough, perhaps people would kill themselves before they begain harming others. And banning it causes so many additional problems that I think legalizing it is the lesser evil. But it should certainly be illegal to advertise it.

      One drug that I think probably *should* be illegal is PCP. OTOH, I doubt that having it illegal is a big problem. Few people appear to be attracted to it. The reason that I think it probably should be illegal is that reports are that it causes people to become excessively violent without warning. (I.e., I don' t think it should be illegal to protect the users against themselves, but rather to protect bystanders.)

      All that said, even if drugs were legalized that wouldn't solve the problem, it would merely mean that the main suffers would be the people who were addicts, not everyone else. Even then, if there were purity requirements, i.e. protection against contaminants, then the drugs would probably be not only cheaper, but less harmful. However it's definitely important to realize that "less harmful" doesn't mean "harmless". If you want to understand what removing legalization would result in, I recommend that you read "Diary of a Drug Fiend" by Aliestar Crowley. This is apparently a pretty accurate reportage by someone who was quite intelligent, if a bit unconventional ("Wickedest man in the World" -- John Bull).

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    47. Re:Finally! by curious.corn · · Score: 2

      The Brits did it in the '800... it turned out to be not that idyllic: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W...

      --
      Mi domando chi à il mandante di tutte le cazzate che faccio - Altan
    48. Re:Finally! by curious.corn · · Score: 1

      Slashdot! You screwed the database encoding!? N00bs...

      --
      Mi domando chi à il mandante di tutte le cazzate che faccio - Altan
    49. Re:Finally! by lister+king+of+smeg · · Score: 1

      I invite you to consider what would happen if we make them legal. The government would tax them to an absurd level, a black market would still exist (look at tax-free cigarettes and their role in criminal revenue),

      so like the untaxed cigarettes people would simply drive out to the nearest Indian reservation to buy a months supply?

      --
      ---Saying gnome 3 is better than windows 8 not so much a compliment as it is damning with light praise.
    50. Re:Finally! by HiThere · · Score: 2

      Not standardized, but labelled. Alcohol comes in various proofs, not at a standard proof. But it's labelled. This is reasonable.

      As for safety...I don't think a drug being dangerous (to the user) is reason to forbid its sale. It might be reason to forbid it being an ingredient in something else, I'd need to think about that for awhile. But the danger needs to be clearly stated on the label.

      What I'm not sure about at all is which drugs one should be allowed to advertise. I'm not sure that ANY should, but where do you draw the line? There isn't a reasonable sharp distinction. And experts rate tobacco as harder to quit than either alcohol or heroin, but I'm not sure that's true. Nobody has had a chance to compare legal heroin withdrawal with tobacco withdrawal, and the illegal heroin is nearly guaranteed to be impure.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    51. Re:Finally! by dcollins117 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      That would put a heavy dent in the income of the organizations that manage the prison systems (which are mostly cronies of the politicians).

      Everyone making money off the status quo will fight tooth and nail to maintain it. That's a given. New crimes are being defined all the time, the one that pops into my mind first is unauthorized use of computers. And just try to exercise your first amendment right to protest within earshot of the president.

      Since Orwell's 1984 has been spot on so far, my guess is that the next activity to be made illegal is any attempt to maintain privacy. Seems to be the way the winds are blowing, anyway.

    52. Re:Finally! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My understanding is that governments import vast quantities of drugs and release them in a controlled manner. The war on drugs is not incoherent with this strategy, simply orthogonal - if one is able to identify a process which is essentially endless, vilifying it is a natural precursor to an endless stream of approved budget-requests - nominally to fight the process - it's perfect and has been a staple of power-monger strategy since the beginning of time; I refer you to the war on file-sharing and the soon-to-surface grassroots war-on-government corruption.

    53. Re:Finally! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      However, there can be no denying that if 1 in 10 people are going to jail based on a single type of crime, perhaps it's time to re-evaluate public policies and whether these activities should be considered crimes.

      Enquiring minds want to know when being a corrupt government official will become a crime.

    54. Re:Finally! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is +5 Funny but could equally be read non-ironically. Yes - the US is that whack!

      Captcha: chapters

    55. Re:Finally! by raind · · Score: 1

      Really, they can buy a kilo of cocaine foe 2k in central america and sell in on the street in the amerika for 200k?

      --
      Get up!
    56. Re:Finally! by mattwarden · · Score: 2

      Occam's razor. No need for conspiracy theories. Drugs are illegal because the vast majority of voters want them illegal, except in very recent times marijuana. And, no shocker, as soon as public opinion on marijuana shifted, so did the laws start to shift. And, no shocker, where public opinion shifted first, the laws shifted first. And where they have not yet shifted sufficiently, the laws have not shifted.

      No need for conspiracy theories.

    57. Re: Finally! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ok and you have actual scientific evidence to back this up??

      I'm sorry but drugs have only been illegal for less than 100 years...I think that for the majority of humanities time on earth we did JUST FINE without your way of thinking thank you very much.

    58. Re:Finally! by BotnetZombie · · Score: 1

      "you can do whatever you want to your own body and mind, just don't do it to anyone else".
      I think you answered your own question - you should be allowed to smoke whatever you want in your own home, except if you have children or non-accepting spouse subjected to your chosen pollution. That out of the way, I pretty much agree with your take on this.

    59. Re:Finally! by MouseTheLuckyDog · · Score: 1

      Does this mean that smokers will now be left in peace?

    60. Re:Finally! by dryeo · · Score: 2

      What evidence is there that smoking is healthier then using heroin? As far as I know there is none. Heroin when used correctly will make you constipated and sleepy, cigarettes will increase your odds of dieing by a large amount. They are both addicting with cigarettes usually being considered worse to quit but being addicted is not unhealthy as long as you have a steady supply which is the reason that highly intelligent, wealthy heroin users are productive members of society whereas poor heroin users are forever looking at getting their next hit.
      If someone is in pain, why should they not have access to a substance that allows them to better function as well as allowing them to handle their pain.

      --
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
    61. Re:Finally! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Then we get into the whole socialized healthcare vs self-destructive habits debacle.. and.. another drug that might need to be outlawed is meth. Talk about some evil shit.

    62. Re:Finally! by dryeo · · Score: 1

      And of course homegrown should be like home brewed, basically unregulated excepting the ingredients (no ripping people off with mis-labeled seeds), amount to a limited degree (here you are allowed to only brew so much beer a year but it's totally unenforced) and of course homegrown should only be for personal use but limited gifts and such should be allowed.

      --
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
    63. Re: Finally! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As far as the US is concerned, I don't think use of substances like crystal meth or pcp would be an issue if more enjoyable/safe drugs were equally available. What makes meth so cheap and available is an artificial inflation of other substances caused by Federal drug policy.

    64. Re:Finally! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      #1: Alcohol prohibition failed because there were too many damn alcoholics! Law enforcement couldn't keep up and eventually had to give up. The real lesson of prohibition is that it was necessary because the regular people couldn't fucking control themselves, it was just too late to do anything about it. Why would anybody with half a brain want to recreate the conditions leading up to prohibition with just every kind of drug!?

      #2: The War on Drugs is actually working. If the Wire knew how to read a goddamn chart or CNN understood economics maybe they'd be reporting the opposite.

      a) The chart that the Wire bases its article on shows that the addiction rate has remained more or less stable while spending has risen to $20 billion per year. The trick is that the rate is a percentage of the population, but they use spending as a direct value instead of a rate. As a rate of GDP, drug spending was at 0.14% in 2010, and while 1970 spending was only 0.04% of GDP, or less than a third of 2010 spending, it's far less of an increase than the chart would have you believe.

      b) I don't know how they came up with a total cost of $1.5 trillion over 40 years as the average spending per year would be $37.5 billion, almost double the maximum of the highest amount spent in a single year, $20 billion. So that right there is either a straight up lie and/or journalistic incompetence.

      c) The quote from CNN: "In the U.S., the average price of heroin, cocaine and cannabis decreased by at least 80% between 1990 and 2007, while average purity increased by 60%, 11% and 161% respectively." What this actually means is that there are *far* more drugs available than they can find buyers for, and they're forced to increase quality while also selling at a steep discount just to generate more demand. Sure, it's a failure that the war on drugs stopped the supply of drugs from increasing. It's an absolute fucking success story that the amount of demand is nowhere near matching the supply.

      #3) The war on drugs isn't actually all that dangerous, at least in the US. On the other hand, you're pushing the message that drugs should be made legal because they're dangerous for people that go out of their way to do illegal things. How about you stop doing and/or selling drugs and maybe it won't be so dangerous? We teach children not to put their hands on a hot stove for a reason, after all.

    65. Re:Finally! by Mr.CRC · · Score: 3, Interesting

      "One drug that I think probably *should* be illegal is PCP. OTOH, I doubt that having it illegal is a big problem. Few people appear to be attracted to it. The reason that I think it probably should be illegal is that reports are that it causes people to become excessively violent without warning."

      1. If other, less intense drugs were legal, the attractiveness of PCP would be even lower.

      2. It is highly likely that the so called reports that it causes people to become excessively violent are because, being illegal, people were confronted by police while on PCP, and freaked out. If PCP were legal and you didn't get arrested just for acting odd, then these people would not have freaked out and acted violently. Thus, the popular beliefs about PCP heavily distorted by confirmation bias. They are basically pure propaganda.

      3. In a world of legal drugs where you can purchase PCP at a pharmacy or chemical supplier simply by signing a waiver that relieves the seller of any liability for the effects of your taking it, then information about the REAL effects, dangers, and value of doing and particular drug would be more freely available and factual. It is unlikely that PCP would be frequently used except by a tiny fraction of the population.

    66. Re:Finally! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As someone who has suffered from a disabling condition since youth, I was really shocked and dishearten to learn DEA had enforced scheduling on drugs in the 80's that could be used to treat my condition (studies now being conducted are showing high promise). Even if they were not prescribed in the market due to abuse potential, these compounds could have been researched further to develop non-psychoactive drugs mimicking the effects. The DEA literally held up scientific research for years on a promising treatment because of the "war on drugs" policy. I kind of feel I'm victim and my life was taken from me.

    67. Re:Finally! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well said.

      --fyngyrz

      anon due to mod points, which, alas, I have already spent. Sorry.

    68. Re:Finally! by Mr.CRC · · Score: 4, Informative

      You are brainwashed with completely false propaganda.

      You can live a normal lifetime addicted to pure heroin, even if injected, if using sterile needles and proper procedures, and suffer practically no adverse health effects. You can even hold a job. Just not one involving safety-critical activities like operating heavy machinery.

      The same cannot be said about tobacco. It is far more harmful than heroin.

      Even meth isn't so bad. If it were legal, more people would consume it orally and get educated about how to maintain their nutrition and avoid destructive binges and loss of sleep. They would become workaholics and help the economy. Over-doing it with meth for a long period of time IS harmful, but I'm certain that if it were legal, the harm would drop dramatically compared to what we have now with impure garbage consumed by people who are forced into a criminal lifestyle to get it, which is the reason for much of the harm. It is fully possible also to be a meth addict, yet manage it so that it isn't harmful to the point of severely shortening one's life or damaging to one's mental health.

      Meth and cocaine addiction are actually self-limiting for most people. I went berzerk with coke for a few years, then one day decided that I would never touch the crap again because I never wanted to feel that depressed again during the come down. And that was the end of it. The same thing happened with meth. Ultimately, I decided to never take ANY rec. drugs again, including alcohol. They just aren't the answer for me anymore, and have remained out of my life for 26 years.

      The hardest thing to quit though, was smoking. Fortunately I did quit, because that would probably have killed me with cancer. Same cannot be said about heroin, meth, cocaine, marijuana, LSD, or any other banned drug.

      Alcohol can give you cirrhosis, and cause life threatening seizures upon withdrawal.

      It's totally f*ing surreal, that the truly most harmful drugs: alcohol and tobacco, are the only ones that are legal! What a hell-hole of nonsensical contradictions we have created.

    69. Re:Finally! by Mr.CRC · · Score: 1

      Well, it's also a problem if it harms your health, and I am forced to pay for your heathcare! If it was entirely YOUR responsibility to pay for your health care (as it should be), then it wouldn't be a problem. And a lot more people would voluntarily give up smoking!

    70. Re: Finally! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The perfect story for this chart.

      --fyngyrz

      anon due to mod points

    71. Re:Finally! by Mr.CRC · · Score: 2

      Yes. What we do not understand, and it takes a great deal of empathic aptitude to consider this honestly, is that it is possible for some people's neuro-biological constitution to basically preclude them from ever experiencing much happiness or anything other than misery, boredom, and despair, from normal, everyday activities and forms of entertainment that are societal norms.

      So they seek out drugs. These are people that perhaps cannot be fixed. We can't just shoot them (as some would advocate) or we would reduce ourselves to barbarians.

      I cannot fathom doing violence (criminalization of drugs) to such people to stop them from pursuing their chosen ends, as long as they aren't committing a crime against me. And the most likely cause for them to commit a criminal act is the high price of illegal drugs.

      Why can't we just leave them alone, unless they reach out for help?

    72. Re:Finally! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is one of the most messed-up issues in the history of humanity. Hopefully we'll see an end to the insane war on drugs in our lifetime! Drugs are made more dangerous by being illegal, I don't know why so few of us in the United States didn't learn the lesson from alcohol prohibition.

      1. It is a Moral Crusade, by the forces of the Holy Church who are hell-bent on forcing a Puritanical lifestyle upon everyone else. In the name of God, of course.
      2. The prison industry is Big Business, and locking up non-violent offenders under mandatory sentencing laws rakes in a pile of cash... and makes a lot of jobs.
      3. Law Enforcement doesn't want to lose a large chunk of funding, or the extra income from seizing "drug-related" property.
      4. Politicians don't want to appear soft on dealing with the "Scum" of society.
      5. Drug Cartels have many foreign governments in their pockets, and thus there exists substantial Political resistance to any acceptance of "bad" drugs.

      As for alcohol prohibition, you still have groups like MADD whose sole purpose is to re-enact alcohol prohibition. There are similar groups looking to outlaw tobacco, and even groups now attempting to ban "junk food". The formula is simple- work hard to convince people that an activity is socially undesirable, demonize the users, then the bans follow without much fuss.

    73. Re:Finally! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In short, the cannabis you can buy legally must NOT have any potentially dangerous additives

      Most people wouldn't have any issue with that.

      and THC levels per gram of cannabis have to be standardized.

      That makes no sense at all. I can buy alcohol anywhere from 1% to 98% per volume, I don't see why weed should have any fixed potency requirement on it either.

    74. Re:Finally! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The problem with smoking is not that it harms your health, it's that it harms other people's health, and makes other people's environment less pleasant to be in. That's why smoking is (typically) banned in public places, or near public buildings, but not banned in the comfort of your own home (that said, even there, it can have severe impacts on children/other members of your family).

      No, it's banned in public places and businesses because there is a war to demonize smoking until there's enough public hatred of it to pass laws making it illegal entirely.
      In my State, long before any anti-smoking legislation was passed, it was already banned from most places. There were only a few businesses which had a smoking room indoors, a very small handful of diners which still allowed it, and the bars & casinos. Everywhere else banned smoking, purely voluntarily, over a decade before any legislation was passed outlawing it.
      I will say it again for emphasis- the cessation of smoking in most places came BEFORE the bans, not as a result of them.

      I am not against laws which state that a business which offers indoor smoking can only allow adults (18+) inside. But I have a big problem when they say that a business which, for example, SELLS tobacco and only allows adults inside, cannot allow them to smoke.

      As for bans on public property, my feelings are that there should be no anti-smoking bans. Despite what most people think, there is no evidence that second-hand smoke in an open, out-door environment causes any elevated health risks. ALL the studies and information about second-hand smoke refer SOLELY to exposure in enclosed, indoor spaces. I would be OK with a set-back requirement from buildings, and places like playgrounds where there are kids around.
      But when some "do-gooder" pulls up in a gas/diesel burning vehicle, spewing huge quantities of dangerous compounds into the public airspace, and proceeds to lecture me about how dangerous my cigarette is, I get this very strong urge to punch them in the face and duct-tape their lips to their exhaust pipe.

    75. Re:Finally! by afxgrin · · Score: 0

      " If you want to understand what removing legalization would result in, I recommend that you read "Diary of a Drug Fiend" by Aliestar Crowley."

      You could also experiment with drugs yourself. Why read someone's opinion when you could just go and form your own.

      Personally the injection route always made me a bit uneasy. It's probably the cleanest way to use these substances however, except for the poking a vein repeatedly part. All you need to do is form some sort of embolism by injecting regularly and you risk dying not even from the drug itself.

    76. Re: Finally! by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      You know what that following this chart could lead to? Unemployed lawyers and happy people.

      Do you want that? Yes? Well, go ahead, if starving lawyers and people without worries don't kill your night sleep, just go ahead!

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    77. Re:Finally! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Very nicely thought out idea. Unfortunately, it'll likely only remain a fantasy in the near future, at least. Still, very nice idea. Perhaps if one city started doing it and showed it to be highly successful, others will follow?

    78. Re: Finally! by mpe · · Score: 1

      As far as the US is concerned, I don't think use of substances like crystal meth or pcp would be an issue if more enjoyable/safe drugs were equally available. What makes meth so cheap and available is an artificial inflation of other substances caused by Federal drug policy.

      One side effect of prohibition is that of "legal hights". Which whilst not illegal often turn out to be considerably more toxic then what's been previously banned.

    79. Re:Finally! by mpe · · Score: 1

      I agree with your comments on this as well. What would we do with all the prison space currently housed by drug-related occupants? That would put a heavy dent in the income of the organizations that manage the prison systems (which are mostly cronies of the politicians).

      Could always put politicians (and their cronies) in there :)

    80. Re:Finally! by rdnetto · · Score: 1

      As far as I can tell, the only issue with the workhouses was that they provided a better standard of care than the employed poor received. That should no longer be the case today.

      The other issue was possibly that the profitability of running such a place was overestimated given how few "able bodied idlers" there were, but it seems obvious that such places would need to be state funded.

      --
      Most human behaviour can be explained in terms of identity.
    81. Re: Finally! by avocanite · · Score: 1

      Brilliant. I'm sure it could be torn apart by a pessimist, but a group of intelligent optimists could totally pull it off, and it covers so many of the loose ends left dangling by the action of sudden legalization.

    82. Re: Finally! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Deaths are rarely accidental when using a single drug ... street or otherwise.

      The vast majority of accidental overdoses are due to multi-drug intoxications, most often the combination of an opiate with alcohol ... though benzodiazepines are also a common lethal combo. The vast majority of overdoses are mis-reported though, since there's a very strong bias against opiates ... so even when cocaine, benzodiazepines, and meth are found in your corpse the fact there were trace amounts of heroin means the medical "professionals" will chalk it up to opiates.

      There is one adulterant found in street heroin that is exceedingly dangerous. Fentanyl. It's active in the microgram range, though this isn't really what is to blame for the danger. Rather when taking fentanyl the negative effects occur before the positive effects ... and the euphoric effect addicts are chasing is almost non-existent. So when a drug user takes fentanyl, they tend to take more and more trying to achieve the effect they desire. Though respiratory depression and a slowed heart rate take effect long before they achieve the level of euphoria they'd like ... and so it's fairly common for them to continue taking more in an effort to achieve the level of euphoria they are used to with much lower (relative) doses of heroin/morphine. Though long before they achieve the level of euphoria they are after, they've taken enough to cause them to die.

    83. Re:Finally! by ultranova · · Score: 1

      Well, it's also a problem if it harms your health, and I am forced to pay for your heathcare!

      I am forced to pay for law and order, and the cost goes up when various jackasses stir up hatred of jews/blacks/immigrants/whatever. So should we ban free speech?

      If it was entirely YOUR responsibility to pay for your health care (as it should be), then it wouldn't be a problem.

      I am also forced to pay the opportunity costs of potential customers and employees being less capable due to losing their health. And, more generally, the opportunity costs associated with every stupid ideology that insists every man is an island in the sea of economy that exists independent of them.

      And a lot more people would voluntarily give up smoking!

      I have a hard time imagining anyone caring more about the costs of treating their lung cancer than about getting that cancer in the first place.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    84. Re:Finally! by ultranova · · Score: 1

      If you are even slightly "high" you can not be pure and one with God.

      Isn't it a cliche at this point that ancient prophets were high? Which, a more cynical person might think, is the real reason many drugs are prohibited: one possible effect is "seeing God". Whether such visions are "real" in some sense or not, they tend to prompt re-evaluation of one's life from a different - often larger - perspective. For someone who's life revolves around dominating others, what could be more frightening than for all the little plebs - or "consumers" - to suddenly see that the roles you've assigned them are, in fact, options to be chosen or discarded?

      If Joe Sixpack sees God then Joe might start comparing that vision to Uncle Sam or the Invisible Hand and ask himself if these things, for all intents and purposes treated as divinely ordained in our society, are really good matches. He might even start to question whether memorizing answers to trivia questions is a good model for religion, and whether it makes sense to assume that the Creator of the Universe is obsessed with gay sex. And that might lead to some uncomfortable questions about who various religious leaders actually serve.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    85. Re:Finally! by MtViewGuy · · Score: 1

      After reading Upton Sinclair's "The Jungle," the innumerable health problems with "bathtub gin" during the Prohibition era, and that kind of scary situation with Paraquat spraying of cannabis plants in Mexico in the early 1980's, that's why I made the comment originally. Indeed, the level of alcohol in an alcoholic beverage is pretty tightly controlled--usually around 5% for beer and around 75% in hard liquor for sale in all 50 states.

      Besides, with USDA and FDA standards, it means that cannabis you can buy (eventually) legally won't cause health problems for all the wrong reasons.

    86. Re:Finally! by dryeo · · Score: 1

      I think the poster means standardized like alcohol, if you buy 40% by volume alcohol, it should be 40%, perhaps plus or minus 1%

      --
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism
    87. Re:Finally! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It justified in that the government's forcing people into crime they wouldn't otherwise be prone to as the result of taking away fundamental liberties. The crimes are no worse than that of the government, and I'd argue much worse, given liberty is a fundamental right and element for which only the government can enforce/break. You may have a limited ability to kill people, and that's a crime, but it's much less of one because you can't kill everyone. The government on the other hand can control everyone (to a much greater degree anyway, and as a result they have a responsibility not to).

    88. Re:Finally! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      SOCIALIST BLEEDING HEART!

    89. Re:Finally! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They already have homeless shelters. Do you really think imprisoning law-minding homeless people who are merely utilizing public facilities is a good idea? This is the most selfish jack-ass thing I've ever heard anybody suggest. In the united states your suppose to have rights and unfortunately its because of people like you those rights have been trampled all over. All in the name of doing "good". In reality your doing nothing good and harming a lot of people. I have no issues with providing better services to the homeless including proper housing (ie apartments, not just homeless shelters), but forcing people to take such shelter is unethical in every imaginable way.

    90. Re:Finally! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Unfortunately, many of these people do not want to live in shelters. Some are mentally not there also and need to be taken care of but are left on their own on the streets with no shower for months if not years. They wander, stand, stare, talk to invisible people and stink to high heaven.

      Some will argue that it would be inhuman to take them to a shelter or whatever, I would argue that there is a limit in a civilized society on what you can impose on others to endure. And unimaginable, instant gut-turning stench from 30 feet away standing by a sidewalk restaurant is not one of those. Or whipping your cock out lying on a bus bench to take a piss. If that is what you want to do, you need to move the fuck away. Or be moved. This is a personal choice. Not all of them choose to be that way and I have seen those who don't. But many look like they've just escaped from a mental hospital and are incapable and unwilling to take care of themselves or integrate in society.

    91. Re:Finally! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There are poor people living in every country on very little income. They work hard and generally integrate in society. There are also homeless people who are in a bad spot but trying to improve their situation.

      This is not them. These people choose to not work because the government takes care of them. Ask any bank cashier in downtown. On the first when the social security checks come in, they're all at the bank to cash it then rush to spend it around the corner on alcohol and crack.

      It's not poverty I have a problem with. It's people who reject civilization but suck at the teat of the very civilized society they spit upon. Maybe you have experience with other homeless people in other countries. In US, I have never seen such lack of upkeep as the hordes of homeless in Santa Monica chilling under the sun all day on the grass among tourists and restaurants, and fighting each other at night for god knows what. Maybe you don't have a problem with stomach-turning stench that would make a skunk blush just as you're eating somewhere. When the ocean is right there and there are public fucking showers everywhere.

    92. Re:Finally! by HiThere · · Score: 1

      WRT point 2: This came to my attention in the context of someone who apparently became violent for no reason. Police were not imvolved.

      FWIW, it's my understanding that PCP is a legal horse tranquilizer, and that it works well for horses. That being the case, I doubt that it's difficult to get even now. But I don't know, because I've never tried.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    93. Re:Finally! by HiThere · · Score: 1

      I don't experiment with drugs myself because I am leery of addiction. Getting off tobacco was a difficult process the second time, whereas the first time I just stopped without problem. I don't think I want to experiment with anything else that's addictive.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    94. Re:Finally! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The thing here is that by having something illegal does not prevent people from using it, and placing a drug-addict in jail just costs lots of money and with a criminal record that person will have a hard time in the future to get a good job etc..

      By decriminalizing drug-use you allow a few more things to happen and all of them are good... There have been many studies into this, and the problem is that most people go by the feeling "Drugs are bad, put them in jail" instead of a scientific method where they look at what problems exists and find solutions that work for the whole society..

    95. Re:Finally! by lonecrow · · Score: 1

      Sooo you might want to rethink the whole privatize everything including prisons plan.

    96. Re:Finally! by lonecrow · · Score: 1

      What a minute. I thought the USA was all about land of the free and personal liberty and free speech etc. Are you saying that anyone found on public property after dark who can't prove a permanent address would be FORCED to spend the night in a former prison? If you instead wanted to stay true to your founding principals, why not just invest in more public restrooms. Then who cares if someone is sleeping under a tree. They won't stink and your doorways won't smell of urine.

    97. Re:Finally! by cavebison · · Score: 2

      Drugs are made more dangerous by being illegal

      Not really, it depends what you mean by "illegal". Bear with me... Personally think illegality sends a good signal for kids - drugs are bad, m'key? - but the *punishment* is the question. Allowing police to arrest a user means these things:

      1. For young people, parents get to know what their child is doing
      2. Police can get the name of the *dealer* from the user
      3. The user can be placed in mandatory rehab as "punishment".
      4. If rehab isn't necessary, then the only punishment is a small fine.

      User gets a slap on the wrist (or rehab) but police get the info they need. What's wrong with that?

      If it's not illegal, it makes finding the dealers more difficult for police. PLUS - and I think this is the worst aspect of making them legal - drugs suddenly become a *legitimate business*. And we all know how ethically business behaves once they can deal in an addictive product.

    98. Re: Finally! by warpuck · · Score: 0

      If you have ever lived in a dry county. I have. There 3 types of people who wish to keep it dry. Law enforcement, clergy and the bootlegger. The bootlegger is often known for his generosity to the campaigns and pulpits. Drugs are commodities. Commodities that rival oil and food in the amount of money used purchase by US consumption.

    99. Re:Finally! by Mr.CRC · · Score: 1

      Well I certainly didn't mean to imply that no one has or would ever become violent on PCP, without provocation.

      If one becomes violent on PCP, is it the PCP, or would they have become violent anyway?

      What is the probability of becoming violent on PCP vs. alcohol?

      Ultimately, if you wish to use moral relativity arguments (which I don't think hold any water, except for revealing the contradictions in the logic of the whole of drug prohibition), then you have to say that alcohol should be illegal since some people have become violent on it.

    100. Re: Finally! by BoogieChile · · Score: 1

      Well, speaking of caffeine, there was a story on the news last Friday about caffeine powder making its way into the market and onto the radar by way of some overdoses. The powder comes out in a packet which advises the recommended dose: 1/16th of a teaspoon, which makes it very easy to overdose on, especially if measured out with common household implements.

    101. Re:Finally! by jandersen · · Score: 1

      Your 'silly' idea isn't completely silly. If we want to get people off drug addiction, the way forward must entail winning the trust of the victims; and you can't win the trust of people by treating them as criminals.

      Where you get it wrong, I think, is where you assume the addicts will still be homesless wrecks; in countries where you can legally get your daily heroin fix (Switzerland? Holland?), heroin addicts quite often have a career, family etc. The truth is that it isn't the addiction as such, but the criminalisation and the diseases from unclean drugs and needles that destroy lives.

    102. Re:Finally! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nearly all drugs are safe at a reasonable dose. Stuff like meth is just adulterated with truly nasty chemicals.

      Tobacco however is greatly overrated in terms of its danger, and to a lesser extent so is alcohol.

      http://smokingoutthetruth.com/the-scientific-scandal-of-antismoking/

      As with nearly everything these days - it is best to distrust scientists and progressive inclinations to discard the past.

      If something has been done for centuries, like smoking, with little ill effect - chances are it's perfectly safe. The same is true for alcohol.

      Civilization quite literally has never existed without the latter, and modernity has become a basketcase once tobacco use declines in the 1960s and the Cultural Revolution began.

    103. Re: Finally! by sonamchauhan · · Score: 1

      I think china tried both prohibition and non-prohibition, sometime back. The latter didn't work out so well for them.

    104. Re: Finally! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh, not to worry. That chart's been up there since 2008. By now, it's pretty clear that it takes a back seat to reality TV.

      --fyngyrz

    105. Re:Finally! by HiThere · · Score: 1

      The point was "without warning". Drunks generally give plenty of warning that they are getting violent. This guy was just walking down the street.

      OTOH, I'm relying on third-hand information about why. Apparently he had a reputation for taking "angle dust" and then becoming violent some time later without warning. Prehaps it was an idiosyncratic reaction, sort of like the "cat" or "dot" reactions to morphine. But I was told that it's the kind of thing one needs to expect from PCP users. Is this true? I sure don't know. But the "without warning" is ... rather hard to deal with.

      OTOH, I guess that if it were easily available, those who liked it would kill themselves off fairly quickly. Presuming that the information that I got was correct.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    106. Re:Finally! by Reziac · · Score: 1

      Or maybe not. Linked from TFA:

      http://www.cato.org/publicatio...

      --
      ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
    107. Re:Finally! by ilparatzo · · Score: 1

      "Also, the high prices are driven by the prohibition of drugs"

      Making them legal isn't going to suddenly make them cheap. On the other hand, they are likely to get more expensive as they are taxed to pay for the problems that can arise from a drugged population, programs to get people off of them as they can be destructive to lives (illegal or not) and because it's a great source of revenue.

      You're going to have to pay for increased work by the FDA to regulate recreational drug production and sales (keep Joe Blow from cooking meth in his basement that is "dangerous" compared to legally sold Meth). You might end up with more people hooked on drugs, since I can now go down to the store and buy a hit of Heroin, so you'll need more treatment programs.

      Besides, alcoholics tend to lead self destructive lives and the worst of them tend to have a hard time holding a job. Same will be true of a legalized heroin junkie. And when he's dead broke because he can't hold a job while high all the time, someone has to pay for him to rehab. Or, he's gotta find some way to get the money to pay for more heroin.

    108. Re: Finally! by Agent0013 · · Score: 1

      Well, by that logic pretty much anything should be outlawed that you can do to your body. Including trans fats and crunch chicken skin. Both are very dangerous, especially in large quantity.

      The problem with that logic, is you are falling for the lies that have been propagated for the last few decades. Your example of trans fats and chicken skin are particularly insightful as the scientist that came up with the fat is bad for you studies threw out half of the data so he could get a curve fit that he wanted to see. one link on this subject. It is well know that studies have shown the fake sugar stuff makes people and rats fatter, not thinner. Margarine also does tricks that end up being less healthy than just eating butter. And using vegetable oil is much worse for you than using coconut oil or even just plain old bacon fat. (My family now uses bacon fat to cook and our health and weight has improved.)

      So letting some group decide what is healthy and un-healthy just leaves you open to being manipulated and controlled by those with power over the laws. I don't want anyone telling me I have to eat some crap than causes anal leakage or turns your eyes brown permanently just because they have stock in the company and will make a ton of profit if they can make the laws say you are required to eat their crap because it has been deemed to be the healthy thing to do.

      --

      -- ssoorrrryy,, dduupplleexx sswwiittcchh oonn.. -Quote found on actual fortune cookie.
    109. Re:Finally! by Altrag · · Score: 1

      From all I've heard, its pretty high cost housing even if its mostly filled with low income tenants.

    110. Re:Finally! by Graydyn+Young · · Score: 1

      You really don't need to make this concept compulsory. A lot of the people you see out on the street are there because of over-crowding in homeless shelters.

    111. Re: Finally! by dublin · · Score: 1

      So, just wondering, does this mean we eliminate just the DEA, or the FDA, too? (The FDA is in actuality far worse in terms of arbitrarily restricting things for any reason or no reason.)

      The most interesting questions aren't along the lines of "What happens when heroin, cocaine, etc. are legal?", but more along the lines of these:

      What happens if Viagra and Cialis are now freely available? (Why on earth should they still require a Rx if heroin doesn't, for cryin' out loud? Can't the users see four hours on a clock?)

      Does this mean that hemp can finally be cultivated in the US as a valuable natural fiber again? (Personally, I couldn't care less if dope is illegal, but making hemp illegal is just stupid - it's a killer natural fiber with amazing properties, grows like mad, and is dirt cheap.)

      More importantly, will this finally allow the sale of unadulterated milk (raw milk and cheeses)? While poor sanitation can produce a risk of tuberculosis, any kind of reasonable cleanliness standards reduce that risk FAR below that of smoking marijauna, even assuming no one will ever drive, boat, or operate heavy equipment while stoned...

      The world would indeed be upside-down if heroin is legal and raw milk isn't!

      --
      "The future's good and the present is nothing to sneeze at." - Roblimo's last ./ post
    112. Re:Finally! by Neil+Boekend · · Score: 1

      As much left in peace as a drug addict who injects everyone they meet with a bit of their crap.

      I don't care about the damage a smoker does to themselves. I care about the crap they dump in the air I need to breathe.
      Smoking at home is no problem. Smoking in your own car is no problem. Smoking in the train is a problem. Smoking in a restaurant is a problem.

      --
      Well, I might have a way, but it only works on a semi spherical planet in a vacuum.
    113. Re:Finally! by MouseTheLuckyDog · · Score: 1

      So I take it you believe all drugs except for tobacco and marijuana be legalized?

    114. Re:Finally! by Neil+Boekend · · Score: 1

      I see no problem in keeping tobacco legal. Just not in public spaces that are not specially designed to cope with the problems it generates.
      Same with weed. At home or in a coffee shop: no problem (assuming it doesn't clash with work). In a train: big problem.
      Heroin: while I wouldn't LIKE a user shooting up during my morning commute it doesn't hurt me (assuming the user doesn't leave used needles in the seat) so it shouldn't be illegal.

      --
      Well, I might have a way, but it only works on a semi spherical planet in a vacuum.
  2. Huh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Apparently the "druuuugs are eeeebil" lobby's influence is on the wane. Finally.

    For reference: When was prohibition finally called off again?

    1. Re:Huh by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Drug users would rather do drugs than kill people. Killing people is the rather unpleasant requirement for people to fork over their money so they can buy drugs.

      Cheap drugs would eliminate this problem.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  3. The war on drugs failed only.... by Tanuki64 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    ...if its goal was to prevent drug usage.

    1. Re:The war on drugs failed only.... by XxtraLarGe · · Score: 5, Insightful

      ...if its goal was to prevent drug usage.

      It's been a rousing success for the law enforcement and prison industries though!

      --
      Taking guns away from the 99% gives the 1% 100% of the power.
    2. Re:The war on drugs failed only.... by Bing+Tsher+E · · Score: 0

      Hey, all those liberal arts majors in the social sciences need jobs as counselors and parole officers.

    3. Re:The war on drugs failed only.... by StripedCow · · Score: 0

      In fact, it is even a success for the military and the weapons industry.

      Because dump a shitload of drugs into a real warzone, and you've effectively stopped the war.

      --
      If Pandora's box is destined to be opened, *I* want to be the one to open it.
    4. Re:The war on drugs failed only.... by itsenrique · · Score: 0

      People who get into these fields often study in community college programs designed for corrections and criminal studies. It's usually a really expensive building with really expensive furniture inside and some very stern looking people working there compared to the rest of the college. The classes take less time to complete, and I'd wager less mental horsepower than getting an AA degree in anything. For reference I'm in Florida.

    5. Re:The war on drugs failed only.... by ColdWetDog · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Talk to the Colombians and Mexicans to see how well that particular strategy has worked out

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    6. Re:The war on drugs failed only.... by sillybilly · · Score: 1

      And by the same token, chemical engineers needs jobs as small business drug makers, so that doesn't fly very far. I'd be a millionaire if they legalized drugs, because then I could be making them as a chemist in my own small business startup or basement, and the social workers could still keep their jobs just like they do with legalized alcohol abusers. It's not the alcohol being legal that's the problem, but people not being able to maintain balance in consumption.

      But even if legalized, I'd have mental and ethical objections to addictive recreational drugs (btw it is always the person that's addictive, never the substance, be it sex, alcohol, nicotine, heroin, it is the feeling and urge that's addictive, and if you're weak to resist its addictive effects, then don't mess with it in the first place, except sex of course, and even with sex there is this thing called "balance"), and I would be reluctant to poison the minds of thousands, but it'd be like eating meat while you're a half ass vegetarian - if it's legal, everybody is doing it, then why not? Meat does indeed taste very good, at some ethical cost, but we shrug it off easily. Ethics gets complicated, dealing with ethics is a great way to get a headache, and I don't envy supreme court judges stuck with deciding ethical dilemmas because there are often no good answers, so we get mile long opinions written by the judges, and haphazard court decisions, but they always split on the 3 vs 4 or 5 vs 6 or 42 vs 43, always very close to half and half, to illustrate that it's an ethical dilemma that made it to the supreme court, and both sides were right but one side was just a bit more right than the other, in a haphazard way. Ethical issues can come up with things such as driving 65 mph on a road and smacking mosquitoes and flies dead on the windshield requiring special "bugwash", vs. driving 35 or 25 mph where they get a chance to escape or bounce off the windshield, but even 10 mph on a bicycle you sometimes end up swallowing flies that get into your mouth and they taste crappy, and all these beings have eyeballs (or more like compound eyes), they collect data through light sensors, form a picture/image and model the world in a mind, they want to live, so they have conscience and sentience, just like meat substance animals with eyeballs looking at you, the eyeballs staring back in the symbol of sentience sensing you back. Not even talking about walking and stepping on bugs. So not only feeding, but simply transportation, moving around can make you hurt other living beings in the world, and in that living beings with minds, feelings and emotions. This is unlike grass and trees without minds that have natural reactions such as exuding defensive resins when cut, just like the live skin cells I shed when cut tough skin near the toes do not belong to me in the sense of organism, they still have natural reactions or cellular function, and defense, but I don't feel bad stepping on my ex-cells that used to be part of this organism called me, because these cells don't have a mind, feelings, emotions just like vegetables and grass and trees don't have minds, even if they do have a lot of sensory equipment, or it's more like I'm not aware that they'd have a mind, which they may still do anyway, such as fungi penetrating the forest floor for miles, lacking eyeballs, but having other kinds of sensors, might have some highly distributed decision making apparatus akin to a mind, like the octopus, which has an eyeball very similar to a human eyeball, yet its nervous system is much more distributed than the human nervous system, and individual octopus arms can "think", as opposed to human limbs don't move around and think if severed from the brain and spine, and even chickens move around without the head and just with a spine, and spider legs when separated from the body (when I was 4 yrs old a friend of mine got off on catching spiders and pulling their legs off and watch them spin on the ground, how entertaining, I was sick to the gut), so a central nervous system may be rep

    7. Re:The war on drugs failed only.... by sillybilly · · Score: 1

      I think they should dump porn instead of drugs into a real war zone.

    8. Re:The war on drugs failed only.... by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Without reading the rest of your comment: No, you would not be a millionaire. You don't think drug prices would stay at the level they're at if it was legal to make them, do you?

      If a drug now costs 50 bucks on the street but costs 5 dollars to manufacture and can be made by any 10 year old with a chem kit, selling it for more than 5 dollars and a pittance will soon be a wet dream. Actually, selling it for 5 dollars will probably be since large chem corporations usually can build the crap far, far cheaper.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    9. Re:The war on drugs failed only.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The prison industry of coarse, but I would argue that it hurts law enforcement.

      Sure they get lots of fun toys to play with, but the "War on Drugs" has created an adversarial relationship between the police and the public in many communities. This makes actual police work much more difficult, as people are not willing to come forward as witnesses or otherwise cooperate with criminal investigations.

    10. Re:The war on drugs failed only.... by sillybilly · · Score: 1

      You're right, if made legal, the regular pharmacies like CVS would undercompete me in price in no time. But the demand would not subside, in fact there'd be more addicts, kinda like during the Opium Wars in China, where the Chinese gov't fought the foreign private business companies for their right to sell drugs legally in China. Legalized opium created a massive devastation and misery of the population, but mostly amongst the poor and dumb people, the wealthy and smart ones stayed healthy and well and prospered. It's like legalized alcohol and legalized guns, most of the devastated alcoholics who end up in the hands of social workers have similar problems to drug abusers, same with crime and probation officers, and it's not really the availability of alcohol or guns that's at fault, but people's behavior in using them.

    11. Re:The war on drugs failed only.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Columbia actually has come off rather well; it's not at all like it was in the days of Pablo Escobar. Similarly, Panama is nothing like it was under Noriega. Both are modern, peaceful states (for the most part), and while drugs are still rampant, drug violence is far from common. The amount of drugs anywhere is probably not strongly correlated with violence, or else the USA would be the most violent country.
      - Alaskan Expat

    12. Re:The war on drugs failed only.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Paragraphs, sillybilly, paragraphs. I read almost every comment in a story, but I was reluctant to dive into yours.

      --fyngyrz

      anon due to mod points

    13. Re:The war on drugs failed only.... by Opportunist · · Score: 2

      And even that I'd call blaming the victim. As I pointed out elsewhere in the thread, there is by now pretty much NOBODY that doesn't know, no later than at age 10, what Heroin does to you. It's absolutely addictive, it WILL ruin your life. People KNOW that. It's not that they're too stupid to understand that rather simple message. People FULLY AND ABSOLUTELY know what they are going to do the moment they stick that needle into their arm the very first time. And STILL they do it. Because that 15 minutes buzz is STILL worth it to them.

      Take a moment to ponder just HOW fucked up your life has to be that you consider escaping it for 15 minutes into a dream wonderland is worth the shit you have to deal with afterwards. A friend of mine is a social worker. And since they cut his supervision, I pretty much turned into his "soul wastebasket". So I get to hear a lot of rather unpleasant things.

      If you actually want to solve the drug problem, you have to solve society. As long as you have people who consider a slow, painful and very ugly death (that they KNOW about, they SEE it, they are already in the circles when H enters their life, so to speak. Even if they don't believe the crap told to them at schools, they FUCKING KNOW what they get into by first hand witness information!) a viable alternative to the hell their life is, your problem is not some greyish-white dust.

      Your problem is a social one.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    14. Re:The war on drugs failed only.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not to mention the drug cartels.

    15. Re:The war on drugs failed only.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But the demand would not subside, in fact there'd be more addicts, kinda like during the Opium Wars in China, where the Chinese gov't fought the foreign private business companies for their right to sell drugs legally in China.

      You say that as if pretty much every last person right now that wants drugs is unable to get drugs...

      In fact the only people who want drugs and won't get them are the ones already deep in the system as victims of the war on drugs.
      It pretty much takes threat of the government to lock you in a coffin sized room or out right kill you if caught having done drugs to make that situation true, which mainly only applies to people already caught before, or the handful of very unlucky first time offenders being caught, none of which would exist with legalization.

      So no, there would be very very few "new" drug users just due to legalization, mainly the exceptionally tiny amount of people for whom the above threat is enough.

      There would be quite a few less drug users once it is no longer a multi-year jail-able offense to be addicted and want to stop and thus seek help to do so.

      Breaking addiction to things like heroin can take years with supplemental medical care like supervised suboxin treatment, or even supervised "going cold turkey" (even though that last method can and has killed people)

      When you cut your finger at home, your options are A) it's bad enough to go to the hospital, or B) it's not that bad and you patch it up on your own.
      In the case of drug use a person wants to stop but physically can't, (A) becomes "go to jail" and (B) simply isn't a physical possibility. As most people wish to avoid going to jail and being kept away from both actual treatment as well as the drug they are addicted to, most people avoid that option.

      Can't say I blame them. Who wants to be locked in an 8x8 cell with 20 other people while trying to survive having bone breaking convulsions and choking on your own vomit.

      Being at the stage where you seriously want heroin out of your life, but literally fear for your life knowing and having gone through multiple-month lasting withdraw symptoms where your brain reacts no differently than if you were denied food or air for months on end...
      I seriously doubt someone like you could even relate to such a situation, and would bet large amounts of cash on you not fairing any better in that situation - and still very much hope you never are or ever need to find out.

      Signed -- Recovered 6 years, mistreated longer

  4. No public drug use by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    No ads, no public displays of drug use, no public drug use, not even in designated public venues, and no brown paper bag bullshit either. Keep it private. No operating heavy machinery or participation in traffic while intoxicated. But yeah, the drug use itself should not be criminal.

    1. Re:No public drug use by TemperedAlchemist · · Score: 1, Troll

      But the sale of addictive drugs should.

      Companies should not be permitted to profit from the sale of addictive substances for recreational purposes.

    2. Re:No public drug use by wisnoskij · · Score: 1, Insightful

      You want to ban video games now too?

      --
      Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
    3. Re:No public drug use by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Disagree. The point of legalizing drugs is to prevent an underground supply. The rationale is quite simple: You're not going to stop people from taking drugs. Someone is going to profit from supplying those drugs, so there is either going to be a legal source or an illegal source. A legal source is better than an illegal source.

      Anyone selling drugs should be required to inform the users about the risks and consequences. If you still want to take up an addictive drug, that's your own damn fault. It's been proven over and over again that you can't prevent people from taking drugs, so that cannot be the objective. The rational objective is to protect others from the effects of drug use (no second hand smoke, keeping intoxicated people off the streets, etc.)

    4. Re:No public drug use by Bing+Tsher+E · · Score: 2

      Just banning In App Purchases would be a big move at this point in time.

      Look at the descriptions in mobile games these days. One of the things many, many games boast of is being 'the most addictive game in the app store.' Like it's a good thing. A measure of success for the game's publisher.

    5. Re:No public drug use by perryizgr8 · · Score: 1

      i think they mean 'its so good that people just can't stop playing it' when they say their game is addictive. the addiction of heroin might be a completely different kind.

      --
      Wealth is the gift that keeps on giving.
    6. Re:No public drug use by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As long as you've effectively 'protected others from the effects of drug use', then it's simply a question of policing consensual behavior. Then again, in a free society, there would be no question.

    7. Re:No public drug use by alen · · Score: 1

      like tobacco in cigarettes?

      or the 200 other ingredients in there to get you addicted?

    8. Re:No public drug use by TapeCutter · · Score: 2

      Keep your paws off my coffee mug.

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    9. Re:No public drug use by itsenrique · · Score: 4, Interesting

      No ads, no public displays of drug use, no public drug use, not even in designated public venues, and no brown paper bag bullshit either. Keep it private. No operating heavy machinery or participation in traffic while intoxicated. But yeah, the drug use itself should not be criminal.

      No ads? OK, sounds reasonable. No public display? OK, we don't allow this for alcohol EXCEPT in designated venues. Do you see a problem with pot cafes? Or methadone clinics? If by public you mean on the street OK, but if you mean no consumption anywhere except the home this contradicts how we treat alcohol. No brown paper bag bullshit? Well you don't usually drink drugs, so OK. No operating machinery or participating in traffic while intoxicated? OK, although proving this for many drugs is much more challenging than alcohol. Example: marijuana.

    10. Re:No public drug use by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Yes, I see a problem with pot cafes. Drug use is not OK, just inevitable. A concentration of drug use (such as in designated venues) will have a serious negative impact on the local community. It is also a form of advertising. Methadone clinics aren't needed if they're just places to use the drug. If they're actual clinics, then their purpose isn't the use of drugs but to help people quit drugs. You wouldn't go to a methadone clinic to take up methadone, except to wean yourself of something worse.

      Yes, I am aware that these rules are stricter than we treat alcohol. I think we should treat alcohol stricter than we do, but I don't think we will. With "brown paper bag bullshit" I mean any concealed use of drugs, not just literal brown paper bags to conceal alcohol.

    11. Re:No public drug use by jeIIomizer · · Score: 3, Informative

      No ads, no public displays of drug use, no public drug use, not even in designated public venues, and no brown paper bag bullshit either.

      Well, if you don't want to do any of that or pay attention to it, then feel free not to. However, just because you don't like it doesn't mean it should be banned.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    12. Re:No public drug use by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The rationale behind "not in public" isn't that I don't like it but that drug use has significant deteriorating effects on society and can thus not be allowed to become normal social behavior. The World Health Organization doesn't want governments to legalize drugs because the people at the WHO are secretly craving, want to stop paying so much for illegal drugs or believe that everybody deserves a better life through recreational drugs. They're weighing the negative effects of drugs against the negative effects of the war on drugs. This is not going to be stoner paradise. You're still wrecking yourself.

    13. Re: No public drug use by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      That's the opposite of the truth. People were happy with opium, weed n coca leaf, illegal supply requires the best bang by the kilo. Look at the dumb shit people make without an affordable supply - krocodil?

    14. Re:No public drug use by jeIIomizer · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The rationale behind "not in public" isn't that I don't like it but that drug use has significant deteriorating effects on society and can thus not be allowed to become normal social behavior.

      Bullshit. Any truly free country would not infringe upon people's fundamental liberties in the name of safety. Also, have you ever heard of personal responsibility? If someone sees you doing drugs and wants to try them too, then that is *their* problem and no one else's. And I think there are constitutional problems with the drug war, and constitutional problems with banning public drug use.

      I have a better idea: Stop trying to control people and just leave them alone. That way, maybe we'll move closer to becoming 'the land of the free and the home of the brave' rather than 'the land of the unfree and the home of the worthless cowards who sacrifice freedom for safety.'

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    15. Re: No public drug use by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Says someone with their head either in the sand or up their own ass.

    16. Re:No public drug use by znrt · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Yes, I see a problem with pot cafes. Drug use is not OK

      drug use IS OK. drug abuse is not.

      I see a problem with views like yours which shift the blame on the substance, righteously ignoring the root problems which are social and educational. this view solves nothing, perpetuates the real problems and just supports the status in quo in keeping the prohibition circus going.

    17. Re:No public drug use by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Alchohol is an addictive drug. But that is legal.

    18. Re:No public drug use by anagama · · Score: 2

      Companies should not be permitted to profit from the sale of addictive substances for recreational purposes.

      Is coffee recreational or a building block of life? Either way, why do you hate coffee so much?

      --
      What changed under Obama? Nothing Good
    19. Re:No public drug use by Immerman · · Score: 1

      So you're in favor of banning alcohol, tobacco, sugar, and chocolate as well?

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    20. Re:No public drug use by Ultra64 · · Score: 2

      >Drug use is not OK

      Why?

      >A concentration of drug use...will have a serious negative impact on the local community.

      Why?

    21. Re:No public drug use by stephenmac7 · · Score: 1

      Drug use is not OK for many reasons, just as tobacco use is not okay. It's bad for you health, addictive, expensive, and effectively useless. It also makes people more likely to get hurt by doing stupid things like operating machinery. Concentrations of drug use will have a serious negative impact on the local community by draining it's money (people will be paying for drugs rather than for local services, etc), making the people unhealthy, putting a bad name on the community, repelling people from moving in, and making it a worse place to do any other business, due to the drainage of money.

      --
      "No man's life, liberty, or property are safe while the legislature is in session." -- Judge Gideon J. Tucker
    22. Re:No public drug use by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > effectively useless.

      That's the crux of your argument and it is outright false.

      Recreational tobacco smoking has medical benefits. But even under the idea that tobacco use is a net medical negative that still ignores the mental effects. People smoke because it relaxes them, it is a mild pleasant buzz. If there were no upside to tobacco use then no one would ever start using it in the first place, kind of like the way smoking tree bark is not a thing because tree bark doesn't make you feel good.

      Now, if you are of the belief that people should never deliberately choose to alter their mental state, well then we have no common ground. But you should know that deliberate use of intoxicating chemicals is not unique to humans. The more social the species, the more likely they are to enjoy getting buzzed.

    23. Re:No public drug use by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The rationale behind "not in public" isn't that I don't like it but that drug use has significant deteriorating effects on society and can thus not be allowed to become normal social behavior.

      Bullshit. Any truly free country would not infringe upon people's fundamental liberties in the name of safety. Also, have you ever heard of personal responsibility? If someone sees you doing drugs and wants to try them too, then that is *their* problem and no one else's. And I think there are constitutional problems with the drug war, and constitutional problems with banning public drug use.

      I have a better idea: Stop trying to control people and just leave them alone. That way, maybe we'll move closer to becoming 'the land of the free and the home of the brave' rather than 'the land of the unfree and the home of the worthless cowards who sacrifice freedom for safety.'

      This is the same thing I say every time I have deal with someone doing drugs. Please just leave me alone. I don't want your pot smoke filling my house every night. I want to be able to go to the park and not have to breathe it in. I want to go to the children's programs at the library with my kids and not have to sit next to someone who reeks of pot. I want to be able to go hiking and enjoy the outdoors without being surrounded by people smoking.

      My experience from living in a place with legalized marijuana is that it is great for people who smoke and not great for people who don't, and I think having laws (and more importantly, proper enforcement of the laws), like no public use, which protect non-users is a good idea.

    24. Re:No public drug use by jeIIomizer · · Score: 2

      I don't want your pot smoke filling my house every night.

      If it's your house, then exercise your rights over your private property and make them leave.

      I want to be able to go to the park and not have to breathe it in.

      Unless you own the park, you're out of luck. Sorry. There's plenty of things I don't want to see--including your comment--but I don't think I can just infringe on other people's freedoms just because I don't like something. I don't want to smell cigarette or pot smoke any more than you probably do, but I deal with it.

      My experience from living in a place with legalized marijuana is that it is great for people who smoke and not great for people who don't, and I think having laws (and more importantly, proper enforcement of the laws), like no public use, which protect non-users is a good idea.

      What about laws that protect users from authoritarians like yourself?

      Look, if you don't want to live in 'the land of the free,' why not move elsewhere? There are plenty of countries that strive to be authoritarian hellholes, and you'd fit right in.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    25. Re:No public drug use by TheRaven64 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Yes, I see a problem with pot cafes. Drug use is not OK, just inevitable

      What about cafes that serve coffee? You know, the beverage containing a highly addictive drug? Should we ban those too?

      The issue with pot cafes is that it's hard for people to work in them without being exposed to passive smoke, but if you can address that then I don't see the difference between them and normal cafes.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    26. Re:No public drug use by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The WHO wants governments to legalize drugs because criminalizing drugs is like criminalizing the measles. "Legalizing measles" doesn't mean we should all go and get infected because measles are awesome. The point is to enable better prevention, treatment and care. We would still not allow kids with measles to come to school or adults with measles to come to work, because measles are still bad for you.

      It's the nature of this topic that there are some people who believe that drugs are in some way or another generally useful. That's why it's impossible to prevent drug use. The general effect on society however is significantly negative. Note that even the proponents of legalization count decreasing user numbers in countries where particular drugs are legalized as a positive effect of legalization. We can get into long discussions about values and norms, but most people regard the physical and mental deterioration which results from regular drug use as a problem, and not just because it makes people less productive.

      Users of addictive drugs, including alcohol and nicotine, regularly defend the habit, but anyone can easily see what it does to others. Even smokers can see it in other smokers, but rarely in themselves. It's a simple medical fact that any positive effects are short-lived and can only be sustained by increasing the dosage. This may be acceptable, even net positive, under certain medical conditions, but a healthy person has nothing to gain from taking up an addictive drug. This is a difficult realization once you've made that mistake.

    27. Re:No public drug use by MrL0G1C · · Score: 1

      No operating heavy machinery or participation in traffic while intoxicated.

      It doesn't matter whether drugs are legal/illegal, medicinal or recreational, if they impair skill or judgement then there should be laws to prevent people from driving / operating machinery whilst taking them.

      --
      Waterfox - a Firefox fork with legacy extension support, security updates and better privacy by default.
    28. Re:No public drug use by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm not blaming the substance. I blame the idiots who take it. I didn't write "drugs are not OK". I wrote "drug use is not OK". The point is, just because they're idiots doesn't mean they're criminals.

    29. Re:No public drug use by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I bet you're one of those people that want's to exercise their right to give me lung cancer just because I want to go to a bar.
      I have no problems with drug use, but drugs that are smoked should be limited to certain areas, just like cigarettes are.
      If you take your kids to the park and I strip naked and start fapping away in their face is that fine too?
      If you don't want a cock in your child's face just stay home. It's the land of the free after all.

    30. Re:No public drug use by jeIIomizer · · Score: 1

      I bet you're one of those people that want's to exercise their right to give me lung cancer just because I want to go to a bar.

      I don't smoke, I don't drink, and I don't use drugs. Your bets are worthless and irrelevant.

      I have no problems with drug use, but drugs that are smoked should be limited to certain areas, just like cigarettes are.

      It's the property owner's decision. If you don't like it, then vanish. Public (as in owned by the public) areas are sort of gray areas in my opinion, but not private property.

      If you take your kids to the park and I strip naked and start fapping away in their face is that fine too?

      Stripping naked is your right, as long as you don't touch others. Laws against public nudity and sex are puritan garbage, too.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    31. Re:No public drug use by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Selling addictive substances is a bad thing, but banning the legal selling of addictive substances is significantly worse. We've just been selecting the bigger turd. It's time to start selecting the smaller turd.

    32. Re:No public drug use by countach74 · · Score: 1

      Unless you own the park, you're out of luck. Sorry. There's plenty of things I don't want to see--including your comment--but I don't think I can just infringe on other people's freedoms just because I don't like something. I don't want to smell cigarette or pot smoke any more than you probably do, but I deal with it.

      Unfortunately, publicly-owned land and establishments creates unique problems for private property rights. In the ideal world, where everything is privately owned, society has a real a tangible way to deal with these things. For example, even without laws and regulations about smoking in restaurants, etc (your state may not have them, but mine does), most restaurants wouldn't allow smoking throughout it (except perhaps designated areas) because society has deemed that inhaling second hand smoke is bad. If that weren't true, then a new establishment that completely bans smoking or controls it better, would have a competitive advantage over the business that allows it openly and everywhere. No such mechanism exists for publicly-owned land, so really the best that policy makers can do is to try to use good judgement in mimic'ing what they see in private society of similar markets or context. Unfortunately, the phrases "good judgement" and "policy makers" have proven to be poorly suited for the same sentence, thus making that solution far from ideal (not to mention public policy evolves oh, so, so slowly, relative the world around us).

      Furthermore, I think perhaps you don't fully understand what "land of the free" means. It doesn't mean "land of where I get to do whatever I want in a 'public' space." Rather, it means the "land where I am free to pursue life as I see fit, so long as I don't impose my freedom to the detriment of someone else's freedom." It is unreasonable to expect to be able to go to the park in the nude, because most people would find that offensive; so much so, that if a group of people regularly went to the park as such, many families might stop going to that park, abandoning it for alternatives that don't feature naked participants. If we had a society where everyone was "free" to do whatever they want to do, it would be chaotic and highly unpleasant. In a completely private society, which is free from state intervention, rules still exist and, while technically you *can* do whatever you want to do, there are consequences to acting on your every whim, not entirely unlike what we have today. It is perfectly natural to forego freedom in order to cooperate with society, even in an anarchist society.

      Apart from that, I agree with everything you've said.

    33. Re:No public drug use by WheezyJoe · · Score: 1

      Companies should not be permitted to profit from the sale of addictive substances for recreational purposes.

      like tobacco in cigarettes?

      or the 200 other ingredients in there to get you addicted?

      The poster is saying what's typically said. You would think that selling a highly addictive substances for recreational purposes would make you rich and invincible, entire nations hopelessly enslaved by your product. Addict-zombie attack. But you'd be wrong.

      Sometimes, the answer isn't the easy one. The lesson painfully learned from prohibition is that prohibition raises demand, not lowers it.

      On the other hand, education and regulation, not out-and-out bans, really work. Tobacco smoking in the U.S. used to be around 50% in the Don Draper years. Now it's under 20 and still dropping. Tobacco companies are having to merge to maintain market share.

      The difference is between people politely, but firmly, told to take their habit outside or into a (dirty) designated area or else you'll get a fine, and police breaking down doors and throwing flash-bombs that kill your grandma with a heart attack (because the Informant lied, and the Chief gave the green-light because the Politician wanted to go on the news that evening with pictures of drugs on the table.

      --
      Take it easy, Charlie, I've got an Angle...
    34. Re:No public drug use by jeIIomizer · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately, publicly-owned land and establishments creates unique problems for private property rights.

      This is like the argument that censorship-happy puritans like to make to 'justify' the FCC's censorship, which is a clear violation of the first amendment. "It's publicly-owned, so your constitutional rights no longer apply!" Nope. I don't buy it. You don't get to censor things just because they're done in public, or any other such ridiculous reason.

      Likewise, you don't get to ban something even if it has a trivial effect on you (inhaling second hand smoke occasionally isn't going to have much of an effect on 99% of people).

      Furthermore, I think perhaps you don't fully understand what "land of the free" means. It doesn't mean "land of where I get to do whatever I want in a 'public' space." Rather, it means the "land where I am free to pursue life as I see fit, so long as I don't impose my freedom to the detriment of someone else's freedom."

      "land of the free" means that freedom is valued extremely highly. I don't buy into the notion that anything with an indirect effect (having to pay more money in taxes, for instance) on you is fair game to be regulated, and nor do I buy into the notion that if something affects you in some trivial way (i.e. you smell smoke in a public place), that it's fair game to be banned. The bar, for me, is significantly higher than that. Take note that we're also supposed to be the home of the brave. So, time to start being brave.

      It is unreasonable to expect to be able to go to the park in the nude, because most people would find that offensive

      You don't get to ban something just because you don't like what you see. Offense is 100% subjective, and it's absolutely absurd that you think this is at all a good criteria for banning things. If they don't like it, then yeah, they can go away, rather than having government thugs impose their irrational values on everyone else.

      I'm offended when other people are offended. Arrest those people who are offended by my nudity! Or are you going to appeal to the tyranny of the majority, as if that makes something more valid?

      If we had a society where everyone was "free" to do whatever they want to do, it would be chaotic and highly unpleasant.

      Straw man! Such a society would allow murder, and that's not what anyone is talking about. What I'm talking about is that it's not okay to limit people when their actions have some indirect effect on other people, or when people are subjectively offended. The latter is especially nonsensical, and yet you tried (and failed) to justify it.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    35. Re:No public drug use by sjames · · Score: 1

      I don't expect much problem from DUI marijuana. Unless the intoxication is readily apparent, the effect on driving will be minimal or non-existent.

      If it is readily apparent, it will be readily apparent in a video tape of the stop shown to jurors.

    36. Re:No public drug use by sdack · · Score: 1

      No, you are wrong. If what you are saying had any merit, then it would be possible to argue 'when someone likes it then it should also be made legal'. We could legalize theft and killings.

      Fact is arguments do not matter. What matters are votes, and the government that gets the most votes wins. Arguments, regardless of how logical and rational these may be, mean nothing to the process. It is simply not required for a minority to understand why the majority wins.

      So when people say they do not like it then, yes, it can mean that it should be banned.

    37. Re:No public drug use by jeIIomizer · · Score: 1

      Also, what is "unreasonable" is also subjective. I seriously, seriously hope you were just joking or trolling when you said that banning public nudity is okay for those reasons, because I'm even more vehemently opposed to that idea than I am to your argument about drugs in public places.

      Government censorship is anti-freedom. Anti-nudity laws are anti-freedom. No free country would allow it.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    38. Re:No public drug use by sjames · · Score: 2

      It's expensive because of sin taxes or black market status. Eliminate those and it's not at all expensive.

      Excessive use is harmful to health, but so is jogging in the city. Your other arguments were predicated on being expensive.

    39. Re:No public drug use by jeIIomizer · · Score: 1

      No, you are wrong. If what you are saying had any merit, then it would be possible to argue 'when someone likes it then it should also be made legal'.

      Nope, that's a complete straw man on your part. Try comprehending what I'm saying before spewing forth such absolute nonsense.

      So when people say they do not like it then, yes, it can mean that it should be banned.

      Bandwagon fallacy. Not too good at this whole "logic" thing, are you?

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    40. Re:No public drug use by countach74 · · Score: 1

      I think you missed my point. Or perhaps I didn't make it clear. My solution is not to ban things, but to at the minimum, reduce what is publicly owned, so that society's preferences can be expressed. And of course what is "unreasonable" is subjective, but that does not mean that it has no place in the discussion. I do not mean to promote government censorship: I mean to remove government from the equation. When I said the best thing government can do is to mimic what private society does, I mean that as an imperfect solution, since the more perfect solution is generally very frowned upon. I think you and I are ultimately after the same general things: less (or no) government intervention in how we live our lives. I only mean to point out that the sorts of freedom you're talking about requires government intervention, as in a free society (one free from government intervention), there are limits to freedom, as you often must forego freedom if you want to interact with others.

    41. Re:No public drug use by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Caffeine addiction is so mild that many people think it's a hoax. Physical withdrawal symptoms, even after prolonged use, are benign (mostly "discomfort"), short lived and outweighed by the psychological withdrawal from the ritualistic habit which can form around anything really. Most people's first contact with coffee, tea or caffeinated beverages isn't even for the effects of caffeine (hence the existence of decaf), whereas few people take the first hit of what are now illegal drugs for anything but the direct sensory and mental effects of the drug (does anybody smoke THC-free joints?)

    42. Re:No public drug use by jeIIomizer · · Score: 1

      I think you missed my point. Or perhaps I didn't make it clear. My solution is not to ban things, but to at the minimum, reduce what is publicly owned, so that society's preferences can be expressed.

      Then that makes much more sense.

      as you often must forego freedom if you want to interact with others.

      I agree that that's true to some extent, but we've taken it much too far. The drug war and bans on public nudity are good examples.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    43. Re:No public drug use by sdack · · Score: 1

      I completely comprehend what you are saying. You cannot believe it, but beliefs also do not matter. Laws are created by those who are in power and power is given through votes (at least in a democracy it is).

      You can long for power as much as you like, and argue for as much as you want, it is not giving you any power.

    44. Re:No public drug use by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Trolling people like you isn't fun. You are too reasonable.
      Anyway, the problem with leaving it up to the property owners is that every single bar is full of smoke all the time.
      For me it's no problem, but the workers are in there several hours per day.
      Ideally it would be as simple as not working there, but then you have to make a trade-off between being able to afford food, or breathing in drugs.
      There should be some kind of regulation that protects people from that.

    45. Re:No public drug use by jeIIomizer · · Score: 1

      Laws are created by those who are in power and power is given through votes (at least in a democracy it is).

      We're supposed to be a representative constitutional republic where tyranny of the majority is less pronounced.

      Do you have an actual point that's relevant to my posts? In case you haven't noticed, I've been saying that prohibition is wrong. Telling me that I'm not in the majority, or that I don't hold all the power, is just pointing out the obvious. We probably wouldn't be having all these problems if that were the case, now would we? So what's your point?

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    46. Re:No public drug use by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Is there ANYONE above elementary school age that does NOT already know all the bad, bad, bad things drugs will do to you?

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    47. Re:No public drug use by jeIIomizer · · Score: 1

      Ideally it would be as simple as not working there, but then you have to make a trade-off between being able to afford food, or breathing in drugs.

      They've decided to make that trade-off themselves. It's not anyone's problem but their own.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    48. Re:No public drug use by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      (does anybody smoke THC-free joints?)

      Sure. They're called cigarettes.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    49. Re:No public drug use by sdack · · Score: 1

      My point is that you are wrong when you say "just because you don't like it doesn't mean it should be banned". I have already explained that by turning your logic around and hoping you would see this that one could try and argue to legalize all that is liked. This apparently did not sink in for you, possibly because you have convinced yourself of your opinion being a rational and absolutely logical truth. It is not. What you have is just another opinion like everyone else's.

      If politics finds that supporting an opinion gives them power then they will pursue it. They do this for almost any if not all opinions. If drugs are then disliked and people want to see them banned then this it is exactly what it means will happen. You fail to understand this or only do not want to believe it, because you remain convinced of your opinion.

      Do you understand this now?

    50. Re:No public drug use by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Laws against public nudity and sex are puritan garbage, too.

      Based on the body shapes of most people I see, I'm quite happy to still have laws against public nudity.

      Laws against public sex? I think those are ok, too, since "your rights end where my rights begin," and I'd rather not see that, either.

    51. Re:No public drug use by jeIIomizer · · Score: 1

      I have already explained that by turning your logic around and hoping you would see this that one could try and argue to legalize all that is liked.

      Which is a complete straw man, as I pointed out. I did not say, "If you like it, it should be legal." I said, "Just because you *don't* like it doesn't mean it should be banned." Do you see the difference, or will I have to baby you? If not, then I doubt you would disagree with me.

      This apparently did not sink in for you, possibly because you have convinced yourself of your opinion being a rational and absolutely logical truth.

      It did not sink in because your interpretation of what I said made absolutely no sense.

      If politics finds that supporting an opinion gives them power then they will pursue it.

      Obviously. That's not what's being debated. What's being debated is the morality of the situation, which is 100% different.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    52. Re:No public drug use by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Banning sugar for being a drug? If you'd taken even an introductory biology course, you'd know that sugar occurs naturally in almost all living things, including the human body. It'd be hard to argue that sugar is a drug with a straight face.

    53. Re:No public drug use by jeIIomizer · · Score: 1

      Laws against public sex? I think those are ok, too, since "your rights end where my rights begin," and I'd rather not see that, either.

      Based on that logic, comments like yours to be banned. You know, "Your rights end where my rights begin." usually refers to someone doing direct, tangible harm to you, not just you seeing something you don't like.

      In the US, we have a constitution. If the constitution doesn't give the government a certain power, then it doesn't have it. It does not have the power to limit speech. It does not have the power to prevent public nudity. Besides that, it's an awful idea to allow the states to ban public nudity. What about that racist fellow over there who doesn't like seeing black people in public? Therefore, ban black people.

      In addition, if one's rights end where another's rights begin, how about this: You can't ban public nudity, because your right to not see things ends at another person's right to display them. Banning public nudity or sex would infringe upon their rights.

      Perhaps you should stop being an insolent, hypocritical little puritan scumbag and just accept the fact that you're anti-freedom and move to North Korea.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    54. Re:No public drug use by jeIIomizer · · Score: 1

      Remember that the US is supposed to be 'the land of the free and the home of the brave.' Free and brave people don't opt to ban things merely because they don't like seeing them; that's cowardly and unfree.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    55. Re: No public drug use by HiThere · · Score: 1

      Don't think that legalization solves all problems. It's a lesser evil. And advertising should be forbidden, but that's a sticky problem, as there's a smooth gradient between cocaine and chocolate. And I'm not sure WHERE sugar fits in. Or flour.

      Clearly the advertising of tobacco is a major part of the tobacco problem. Now figure out how to ban it without doing more harm than you prevent.

      The best answer I have is the one the dairy companies used against margarine back in the 1940's and early 50's. Don't allow them to be an ingredient. You can buy the drugs, but if you want to make brownies, you've got to bake them yourself. But I think the supreme court decided that was unconstitutional, and they had to allow the color to be mixed into the margarine before it was sold. And since corporations are people, they have the right to free speech, and since money == free speech, they have the right to pay people to promote their stuff. So how do you ban advertising?

      That's basically the reason I've been against legalization. I think that possession should come with a 5 minute sentence, no fine, and no permanent record. That way it's legal to continue to forbid advertising the stuff.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    56. Re:No public drug use by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just make sure your employees are all potheads already. It's not like you'll have to look far in the fast food industry to find some.

    57. Re:No public drug use by HiThere · · Score: 1

      The problem is, back before morphiates were made illegal there was this syrup called laudanum that you rubbed on the gums of a baby to stop it complaining about teething. Lots of kids got addicted before they could even talk.

      SOME regulation is needed. The problem is how to have regulations that cause less harm than the harm they're actually (not ostensibly) preventing.

      For a start, I'm all in favor of total legalization with only a couple of provisos:
      1) Everything needs to be clearly labeled so that people know what they are buying. (This includes warnings, but not overkill warnings such as those that currently come with prescription drugs.)
      2) No advertising.

      The problem with this is that drugs aren't a thing, they're a pretty smooth gradient along several axes, some of which are independent of each other. Examples to help you think:
      Coffee, cigarettes, joints, hash, methdone, heroin, sugar, flour, chocolate, cocaine, Yerba Matte, Yohimbe, Asprin, Psilocibin, steak, morphine, snuff, lsd, DMA, Guiness, DMT, ecstasy, PCP, roast turkey, ibuprofen.
      Those are all drugs. Some are also foods, but that doesn't keep them from being drugs. I'd have included niacin, but nobody likes the effect, which sort of puts it in a separate category. The general category description is "mood altering substances".

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    58. Re:No public drug use by HiThere · · Score: 1

      Have you noticed how effective the laws against operating a vehicle while using a cell phone have been? Yet that at least as dangerous as being mildly drunk. Some studies have said that typically being stoned on grass causes one to be more careful, but I have my suspcion that that may be due to fear of being caught. Still...

      Perhaps the laws should be against reckless driving, not agains what you've eaten or drunk. Perhaps some people shouldn't be allowed to drive just because they're a bit senile. (My father had Alzheimers, and I'm rather sure his license should have been pulled before he was too far gone to remember that it had been pulled.)

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    59. Re:No public drug use by jeIIomizer · · Score: 1

      SOME regulation is needed.

      And education.

      2) No advertising.

      I disagree with this one.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    60. Re:No public drug use by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The issue with pot cafes is that it's hard for people to work in them without being exposed to passive smoke

      That's not an issue, that's part of the benefit package.

    61. Re:No public drug use by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't want your pot smoke filling my house every night.

      If it's your house, then exercise your rights over your private property and make them leave.

      You can't do this when the smoke originates from property you do not own.

    62. Re:No public drug use by ewieling · · Score: 1

      By the time you reach secondary school (high-school) you start to realize that everyone from your parents to your church to your school to your government has been lying to you, at least in some part. You start to distrust authority and the government and don't believe them even when they are telling the truth. If authority says marujuana has "no medical use and a highest potential for addiction" and you know that is not true, maybe they are lying about vaccines being safe? If they lied to you about masturbation, maybe they lied to you about STDs? If the authorities continue to lie, the citizens will continue to not believe anything they say.

      --
      I really shouldn't have used someone else's email address for this account.
    63. Re:No public drug use by jeIIomizer · · Score: 1

      Nope, you can't. Too bad for you.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    64. Re: No public drug use by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Like this topic isn't sufficiently difficult without people being obtuse on purpose. Cigarettes aren't joints. Have you seen both? Anyway, even if we follow your train of thought, cigarettes contain another drug, and they are still used for the drug effect.

    65. Re:No public drug use by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have gone from high use of marijuana to zero use much more frequently than I have quit using coffee

      In my personal experience it is much easier to quit pot than either coffee or cigarettes

    66. Re:No public drug use by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > does anybody smoke THC-free joints?

      Sure. They're called "cigarettes."

    67. Re:No public drug use by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Disagree. The point of legalizing drugs is to prevent an underground supply. The rationale is quite simple: You're not going to stop people from taking drugs. Someone is going to profit from supplying those drugs, so there is either going to be a legal source or an illegal source. A legal source is better than an illegal source.

      You really think legal sources are better?

      Sorry, but I'd MUCH rather deal with the underground opium dens than what Big Pharma has turned our country into with their fucking opium-laced painkillers. Talk about an epidemic that would have NEVER reached the proportions it has today without their help, especially when the government steps in and helps perpetuate that problem by subsidizing highly addictive subscriptions. Anyone can afford to be an addict when it's $5 a bottle.

    68. Re:No public drug use by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Keep your paws off my coffee mug.

      Spoken like a true addict.

      Oh, I'm sorry, bit too much truth in that spoonful for you? Yeah, don't worry, I'll let you mix it in with that next pot your brewing.

    69. Re:No public drug use by Mr.CRC · · Score: 1

      How do you abuse a drug? By hitting it with a hammer? Trying to fuck it?

    70. Re:No public drug use by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No ads, no public displays of drug use, no public drug use, not even in designated public venues, and no brown paper bag bullshit either. Keep it private.

      No. It's not my job to hide reality from you, or your children. Just because you have some kind of personal objection to the activity doesn't give you the right to not observe it, just like your objection to homosexuality does not give you the right to ban same-sex hand-holding in public.

      I don't have a problem saying that a business has to be adults-only to allow use of alcohol, tobacco, pot, etc. But I do have a problem when you say a business cannot allow it at ALL. I don't mind saying "keep the booze, smoking, and weed a little ways away from buildings and playgrounds", but public space is for public use, and you should not get to impose bans on activities which you object to over the rest of the public. And for the record, since it always comes up, the dangers of 2nd hand smoking apply only to exposure in enclosed/indoor areas. Someone smoking a cigarette 20 feet away from you poses absolutely no measurable risk to you, and if you're really that worried about what you're breathing you might want to start by looking at all the cars/trucks driving around.

    71. Re:No public drug use by Mr.CRC · · Score: 1

      The danger with marijuana is with beginning users. One of the first few times I got high as a kid (which I probably would have never gotten into if it were legal, and not "rebellious"), I rode my bike down a long moderate incline at the high speed I was used to, but at night which I wasn't used to.

      I was so spaced out, that I didn't notice the flat bed truck with I-beams sticking out behind it. An I-beam whizzed past my head just a few inches away at about 25-30 MPH. Would most likely have killed me if that had smacked me in the face.

      I remember looking back and after suddenly realizing that I had just narrowly escaped death, I don't think I was very high anymore. This is one of the very weird things about cannabis euphoria, it can be almost completely suppressed in an instant if something triggers the amygdala.

      There are serious problems with our current "statist" "police enforcement" approach to controlling DUI. It just isn't going to work with cannabis.

      We need to re-think this, which is very difficult when everyone just keeps regurgitating the same old ideas.

      I think that a possible solution lies in a significant de-regulation of the auto insurance industry. Let them charge steep premiums to DUI people, and NOT let them squirm out of paying out in full when those people screw up. If ins. cos. had more leeway to base premiums on behavior such as alcohol and drug use, then people who engage in stupid behavior would be either banished from the roads, or would have to pay much higher premiums. This would motivate ins. cos. to figure out ways to let people discount their behavior by agreeing to contractual terms to not DUI, or to use a breath tester built into the car, or who knows what. I don't know exactly how to fix this. But I'm sure there is a way to do it more effectively with market and incentive based systems rather than by criminalization and law enforcement.

      Stopping people in road blocks and demanding breath, urine, blood, hair, semen, and DNA samples at gunpoint by police is NOT the solution, yet is exactly what we are going to get if we do not start thinking outside the box and find a new approach to this.

      We really need self-driving cars. I used to think this was absurd. Now I'm converted.

    72. Re:No public drug use by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Drug use is not OK, just inevitable.

      Wrong. It is YOUR OPINION that it is "not OK". Which is fine, you are entitled to your opinion. But stop framing it as fact, because it's not a fact, it's a point of view. Which can be debated, and is not held by many.

      A concentration of drug use (such as in designated venues) will have a serious negative impact on the local community.

      Again, this is just your opinion. First, you fail to back up your claims that it will even HAVE an impact, then utterly fail to specific anything about what this alleged impact consists of, and thus have nothing to support your claim that any impact would be negative.

      It is, in fact, no different than claiming that gay marriage or letting blacks eat at the same table as whites will have a "negative impact on the local community".

      As for use while driving or using machinery, it's already not legal to do so. That includes taking OTC medications, prescriptions, booze, failing to wear glasses when needed, or simply not getting enough sleep. Yet people like you continually demonize "drugs" which you obviously take a moral objection to, and ignore other actions which are just as dangerous.
      I will be clear- you should not EVER operate a car, heavy machinery, or perform any life-critical function when you are impaired... REGARDLESS of the reason WHY you are impaired.

    73. Re:No public drug use by Mr.CRC · · Score: 1

      "If you take your kids to the park and I strip naked and start fapping away in their face is that fine too?"

      From the dawn of the human species about 1.5 million years ago, up to about 9000 years ago, masturbating or copulating in visible proximity to others would have garnered little attention except for possibly a few giggles.

      The "in their face" part, is a straw man.

      Why should children be shielded from seeing nature? What is so abhorrent about nature? How can the sight of nature be a crime? Sex and fapping are natural.

      Should we shield children's eyes from seeing the moon, death, the ocean, dog feces, sunflowers, etc.? Why not?

      Explain how the view of human genitalia is somehow fundamentally different from that of the sky, water, shit, or flowers? You can't. It's completely arbitrary. Why don't we cover up all the animals cocks and cunts so the little ones can't see them? Good luck. You'll have to exterminate the entire dog population, because those poor creatures just can't help themselves but to fuck (or try to) anything that moves.

      Maybe the people who find it offensive are just jealous that they aren't getting any?

      Of course, the problem isn't nature.

      The problem is religion. Specifically, western monotheistic religion.

    74. Re:No public drug use by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Well, that's what you get from fear mongering. Crying wolf too many times leads to people ignoring you. Right now, you could call out a level 1, hot red and absolutely positive terrorist attack incoming and people would just go "meh".

      But that's not even true in this case. It sure works for "soft" drugs like MJ and the like, that you can get rather easily and without diving too deeply into the "drug circles".

      But if you want some of the nasty shit, you usually know what you're about to get into. Not because school, teachers, priests or other fairy tale godmothers tell you about it. Because you effin' SEE what it does. Few people push their first time themselves. Most have some "help". From people who have been doing it for a while.

      They know what they get into. And they still consider it a better alternative. Just take a moment to ponder how fucked up your life has to be that you consider a slow, agonizing death with a brief, occasional high a pleasant alternative.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    75. Re: No public drug use by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Yes, but one thing confuses the hell out of me. Why is one legal and the other one illegal?

      There's no rhyme and reason in laws concerning sex, drugs and copyright.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    76. Re:No public drug use by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No public displays of self-righteousness, no air of superiority without the substance to back it up. No arrogant bullshit either. Keep it private. No participating in a rational discussion while being narcissistic. But yeah, keeping your egotistical views completely to yourself should itself not be criminal.

    77. Re:No public drug use by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think you'll find that if you keep up the argument that drugs should be legalized because drug use is OK, then drugs will not be legalized, because the prevailing opinion on the matter is that drug use is not OK. This is a topic where the people who use or want to use currently illegal drugs have a lot to gain by simply keeping their mouth shut about how drugs are awesome and how much they want them to be legalized. Legalizing drugs is a concession on the part of the majority who are not regular drug users. Legalization is seen as the lesser evil, not as the dawn of a new drug-enhanced utopia.

      I live a short drive away from a community where a concentration of (legal) drug use is fact, not opinion, negative impact included (higher crime rate, departure of other businesses, etc.). There's no point in bringing this up, though, because you'll just call it an exception or a transient effect. I have worked with ex-junkies, so I know first-hand what drugs do to people (even after they've stopped). There's no point in bringing this up, though, because you'll just call me morally biased and dismiss the small sample size.

      As drugs are legalized, it is important to make it abundantly clear that it does not make drugs socially acceptable, that others will be shielded from the effects of drug use as far and wide as possible without giving up the benefits of legalization. The reason why this is important is that there are people who want the legalization of drugs for all the wrong reasons.

    78. Re:No public drug use by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And you should find a country of assholes and move there. You'd fit right in.

    79. Re:No public drug use by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've changed my mind. Drug use should remain illegal. My concern for the health of drug users, the people living in communities which fail to effectively police drug use and the social structures in countries overrun by drug trafficking is not strong enough to allow people like you to walk all over my concerns for my own well-being. Book the stoner, officer.

    80. Re:No public drug use by sjames · · Score: 1

      First time users will likely know more about what they're about to get if it's legal. School health class, PSAs, etc will be more free to give practical advice once it's no longer a matter of 'condoning criminal activity'

      One interesting finding is that while alcohol and THC both increase reaction time and lead to distractability, alcohol users tend to be oblivious to that and drive dangerously while THC users tend to remain aware of their impairment and drive more carefully to compensate.

      The road blocks just need to go. I doubt they catch more people than just watching traffic for people driving poorly. I'm certainly not advocating for DUI but everything around it has gone to cuckoo-land. Debate over the permissible BAC is purely political at this point. It has no basis in statistics or science. The NTSB has completely skewed the statistics by counting a sober driver with alcohol anywhere in the proximity an alcohol related accident. (Yes, man has heart attack and plows into a restaurant where alcohol is served, it's an alcohol related accident!). Given that, it's hard to know if it's even a problem we have anymore.

    81. Re:No public drug use by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      People like you are the strongest argument against legalization. There's a snowball's chance in hell that society will accept public use of drugs and all that entails. If the public feels that's what they'll get with legalization, drugs will remain illegal. I for one have changed my mind and now reject legalization for exactly that reason.

    82. Re:No public drug use by ultranova · · Score: 1

      But if you want some of the nasty shit, you usually know what you're about to get into. Not because school, teachers, priests or other fairy tale godmothers tell you about it. Because you effin' SEE what it does. Few people push their first time themselves. Most have some "help". From people who have been doing it for a while.

      Or you mail order it from the Silk Road of the day. You keep on pushing the "dangerous drugs are used by desperate people" angle, but they're also used by people who simply want a thrill. And the fact is, at this point it's next to impossible to know how dangerous any particular substance really is. There's too much misinformation around. So people say "screw this", throw caution to the wind and do it.

      And of course that's how it works with everything else, too. How many people still care about nutritional recommendations, which get revised every few years, rather than simply eating what they want?

      Just take a moment to ponder how fucked up your life has to be that you consider a slow, agonizing death with a brief, occasional high a pleasant alternative.

      And this is another thing: a typical drug-related death is not slow and agonizing, it's overdoze. Tobacco is the only exception I can think of, yet people who's lives are otherwise just fine smoke anyway.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    83. Re:No public drug use by Immerman · · Score: 1

      And as someone who maintains an acute awareness of how their environment their psychological state I can tell you right now that when consumed in large quantities sugar is most definitely a mind altering substance - nothing to compare to alcohol in terms of magnitude of effect of course, probably more on par with small quantities of nicotine (there's a reason the natives considered tobacco a sacred herb). It's only in the last few centuries that our most of our species had access to large quantities of sugar - you couldn't eat fruit fast enough to get the sort of blood-sugar spike a few sodas or a big old slice of triple-chocolate fudge cake can bestow, and our biology isn't well-equipped to deal with such extremes - and there are psychological side-effects to that.

      And while we're at it - how about caffeine? Talk about your medium-high yield addictive mind altering substance that has addicted an enormous segment of the population! And I would rank it as at least as powerful in it's fashion as alcohol. Why should the fact that the popular opinion is that it's a net benefit magically grant it immunity? Personally I see it as an extremely insidious drug that largely deprives it's addicts of a stillness vital to living a well-balanced life. But then I would not presume to try to ban or regulate its use by those who choose to pay its price either.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    84. Re:No public drug use by jeIIomizer · · Score: 1

      I don't see why. I'm already living in a country that strives to be 'the land of the free and the home of the brave.' I'm merely holding people here to the standard that they claim to aspire to. What is the problem with that?

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    85. Re:No public drug use by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      There is a difference between the various substances and how they're perceived. All misinformation included, there are certain "absolutes". Seeking the thrill is something you'll do with stuff like psychedelics and stimulants. MJ, MDMA, LSD, various othre three-to-six-letter chemicals. Sure, some say they're harmful, some say they might be dangerous, but "I know what I'm doing".

      Crack and Heroin or insane shit like Krok is a different matter. You don't reach for that for a thrill. When you're going down that road, you know that you don't come back. And you really don't plan to.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    86. Re:No public drug use by lonecrow · · Score: 1

      I think the phrase you are looking for is "Harm Reduction"

    87. Re:No public drug use by TemperedAlchemist · · Score: 1

      Alcohol no. Tobacco yes. Sugar no. Chocolate (caffeine?) no.

      Only one of those have a direct mechanism for addiction. One of the arguments people like to use in favor of legalization is that, "Everything else is addictive too!"

      But no, you're wrong, and you should feel wrong. Normal everyday things that stimulates the reward mechanism can be addictive, it's true. But at the same time, you're horribly misinformed about pharmacology and pharmacokinetics. The question is not if something could be addictive, it's whether or not it causes addiction through a direct mechanism. Nicotine, morphine, and cocaine all have direct mechanisms to causing addiction. The internet, video games, delicious foods, and alcohol does not.

      So why not caffeine too? The answer lies in just how addiction works. There is a threshold for substances that have a direct action on reward mechanisms, so that many things end up as nonaddictive. And while there are coffee drinkers genuinely addicted to caffeine, they are by far in the minority. Other drugs such as bupropion also have this characteristic.

      In the end we must ask the question, "Does the user choose the drug, or does the drug choose for the user?"

      This puts us in quite a predicament. If we are to accept that people have a choice in deciding between lighting up their next cigarette in not, then we must also accept that they can choose to quit at any time, and it is merely the fault of their being lazy that prevents this. However, if we assert that they cannot choose to quit because nicotine prevents them from doing so despite reasonable effort, then this means it is not their fault for being lazy, but are being controlled by a chemical.

      So why, then, come out in support of selling this dangerous and toxic chemical? While it is your body and what you choose to do with it is none of my concern, others profiting off of the deliberate harm of people which is not of their own free will should be an egregious crime. It is baffling that anyone with a sense of morality promote anything to the contrary.

    88. Re:No public drug use by TemperedAlchemist · · Score: 1

      Sugar is necessary for you to live. It is impossible to survive without it. Something that is necessary to survival cannot meet the criteria for being addictive. Sugar being thrown in to the mix was caused by a very poorly done study by a university that proclaimed sugar was more addictive than cocaine. But the very experiment was setup in such a poor way the university should make a public apology. All the research team managed to show was that rats (that have an exceptional natural resistance to cocaine addiction) preferred tasty Oreos over dehydrated, tasteless food pellets doped with cocaine. They then drew the false conclusion that sugar was more addictive than cocaine. It's quintessential bad science and moreover shows the ignorance of people who cannot be bothered to read and think for themselves.

      Caffeine can be quit by the large majority of the population with reasonable effort. While a small part of the population does indeed suffer from legitimate addiction that cannot be overcome, it does not cross the biological threshold necessary to produce a full addiction (and there is one that is crossed by other stimulants, like methamphetamines).

    89. Re:No public drug use by Immerman · · Score: 1

      I think you're splitting hairs in terms of addiction. Unless you're a researcher it doesn't actually matter what the biochemical process for addiction is, it's the subjective experience that determines how people respond to it. The general rule-of-thumb most people seem to go by is that physical addiction is associated with withdrawal symptoms, and quite often habituation from regular use (i.e. you need an ever-increasing dosage to continue to get the same effect). And both caffeine and alcohol definitely fit that bill. With chocolate though I was actually thinking of the fact that it stimulates endorphin production, indirectly placing it in a class with low doses of the various synthetic endorphins.

      Oh, and as for most people not being addicted to caffeine - go ahead and ask someone who consumes even a cup or two a day to give it up for a week. I can almost guarantee they'll be suffering from at least mild withdrawal.

      As for sugar, I'll admit that it's borderline on addictiveness, though there will be some withdrawal (low energy) if you suddenly cut a steady diet of sugary snacks - and it could be argued that diabetes is a pretty permanent form of overdose damage. Habituation also appears to be a real problem - acclimate to a diet of chocolate-frosted sugar bombs and a piece of fruit will barely register as stimulating your evolutionarily valuable sweet tooth
      .
      As for "Does the user choose the drug, or does the drug choose for the user?" - that's a silly question. It poses a false duality while seeking to obscure the fact that the person is the only one with volition. A more accurate question would be "How difficult does the substance make it for an acclimated user to stop consuming it?" That clearly indicates that you are dealing with a spectrum phenomena, not a discrete "addictive/not-addictive" duality, and diffuses the ridiculous idea that addiction is due to "laziness". If you're walking across a level plane (unaddicted), then going in any direction (taking the drug or not) is equally difficult. As addiction begins to set in however the plane begins to tilt such that cutting back becomes increasingly difficult while increasing consumption becomes increasingly appealing, and can eventually reach the point of requiring drastic efforts to break the cycle. It always entirely the person's choice to take every dose, but we don't call a man lazy when he can pull a heavy wagon he across the plains but not up steep mountain, why should we do so when his actions are shaped by a lack of strength of will rather than of body? Like strength, willpower is something that must be cultivated over time, and some individuals are naturally graced with much greater reserves than others. And unlike strength willpower can't be easily shared - far easier to help a man get his load up the mountain than to help an addict/coward/etc break the self-reinforcing cycle they're trapped in.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
  5. It's finally time to do it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Interesting

    Legalization of drugs means that government and its corporate masters can seize upon the opportunity to tax and profit from widespread addiction. Also, government should see legalization as an opportunity for greater control, as with the *right* legal drugs, a population can be kept high in a sedate way, and therefore under complete control.

    A stoned society is a polite society, and one which can be easily controlled by government.

    1. Re:It's finally time to do it by jythie · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The problem is, once we get away from pot and other light drugs, the heavier ones have a pretty significant net economic cost. Historically, before our modern drug laws went insane, trying to get drugs out of a local community was a response to local economic collapses when things like opium were introduced to a region. Physically addictive drugs can be pretty devastating to a community as more workers exit the pool and more resources go to taking care of the addicts.

    2. Re:It's finally time to do it by Tanuki64 · · Score: 0

      Alcohol and tobacco are good enough for this purpose. The gains from other drugs would just cut into those profits. And you would miss the opportunity to implement piece by piece the tools of a police state. Come on... child porn and terror carry only so far and don't really fill your prisons. Without drugs something else has to be found for this purpose.

    3. Re:It's finally time to do it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That is true for illegal drugs. But the point of this is to legalize drugs and then transfer control of the drug-making process to corporate interests who can engineer drugs that give a great high, but are not so physically devastating or addicting - truly recreational drugs.

      The only reason there is such an economic cost is because government has abandoned its responsibility to regulate the drug trade and make it safe enough to be acceptable.

      One of the biggest problems we have in society today is free will - most people don't know what to do with it, and end up acting out self-destructively. A ubiquitous, government-controlled drug program can make sure US Citizens remain in a nice high most of the time, and under control. Most people need to be told what to do. Without leadership, they can't function.

      Life is just so much easier when you don't have to make big decisions for yourself, and when you don't have huge responsibilities to manage. Let the government handle all of that crap. A ubiquitous, managed drug use program can achieve that.

    4. Re:It's finally time to do it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Have you looked around lately? If keeping drugs illegal is just to keep people off welfare, it has failed. Just about 50% of US citizens rely on federal welfare of some type or other.

      I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm saying your reasoning is wrong. We have economic collapse nationwide if your definition is people dependent on governemnt checks and the government having to take care of them. Drugs are not related to this issue.

    5. Re:It's finally time to do it by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 4, Insightful

      No, this is the old "Reefer Madness" mentality, meant to make happy both the Puritans and the prison profiteers while keeping the politicians in an elevated state of power.

      What actually happens, and Portugal ran this experiment with a sample size of over 8 million people during the past decade, is that when drug use is decriminalized, the usage rate quickly falls to about half.

      Most of those are people who are no longer afraid to seek treatment. Some are folks who wind up court-ordered to get treatment, and a few were drug users who were only doing it because drugs seemed cool because they were illegal.

      At the end, though, the incontrovertible fact is that the community has half the number of drug users as it did under Prohibition. Prohibitionists are responsible for a doubling of the drug usage rate in the community. Does that seem counter-intuitive? So what? The data is in.

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    6. Re:It's finally time to do it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I see someone has watched Interstate 60 or been to Banton.

    7. Re:It's finally time to do it by jeIIomizer · · Score: 1

      This is 100% irrelevant even if it is true. The 'land of the free and the home of the brave' would not ban people from taking drugs, even for safety, just like it wouldn't allow the TSA, the NSA surveillance, or any other freedom-violating/unconstitutional nonsense to exist.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    8. Re: It's finally time to do it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They didn't say legalize you fuckwit, learn to read. Ignorance isn't an excuse for your waffle either

    9. Re:It's finally time to do it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It does not seem counter-intuitive to me and makes sense. It also confirms the beliefs that I already have, though. Can you provide references, though, cuz statistics and all that since skepticism is gude.

    10. Re:It's finally time to do it by anagama · · Score: 3, Informative

      This is a great debate between Glenn Greenwald and GWB's drug czar and in it, reference to Portugal and studies related to that are made. From there, you can do your own searching:

      http://vimeo.com/32110912

      --
      What changed under Obama? Nothing Good
    11. Re:It's finally time to do it by ColdWetDog · · Score: 0

      Whoops. Just no. Alcohol and tobacco have higher social costs than all of the other drugs put together. Way higher.

      Now, whether or not you see that as an inevitable effect of homo industrialalis being the undeveloped, unevolved, barely conscious pond scum that they are or a reason to clamp down on alcohol and tobacco depends on your personal philosophy but don't go making unsubstantiated statements like that.

      There are no 'heavier' drugs than that pair.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    12. Re:It's finally time to do it by Cinnamon+Beige · · Score: 1

      No, this is the old "Reefer Madness" mentality, meant to make happy both the Puritans and the prison profiteers while keeping the politicians in an elevated state of power.

      What actually happens, and Portugal ran this experiment with a sample size of over 8 million people during the past decade, is that when drug use is decriminalized, the usage rate quickly falls to about half.

      Most of those are people who are no longer afraid to seek treatment. Some are folks who wind up court-ordered to get treatment, and a few were drug users who were only doing it because drugs seemed cool because they were illegal.

      At the end, though, the incontrovertible fact is that the community has half the number of drug users as it did under Prohibition. Prohibitionists are responsible for a doubling of the drug usage rate in the community. Does that seem counter-intuitive? So what? The data is in.

      My problem is that at least in the US, the disease model of addiction is used like a get-out-of-jail-free card: "I'm sick so you can't be mean to me by saying I should be responsible and seek treatment!" You see it used a lot for anything that would require lifestyle changes.

      I'd go for the middle ground: Decriminalize drug use, up the penalties if your drug use causes you to break laws and put a permanent end to the ability to claim 'intoxication' as a defense when it was a voluntarily obtained state.

      The other, probably easier option is to actually make it very, very clear that seeking treatment is safe--because it seems that actually we're doing every part of that except the publicity. This may be more a job for an ad firm than politicians, unless we do need to make it very explicit within the law that this can't be used against somebody.

    13. Re:It's finally time to do it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > My problem is that at least in the US, the disease model of addiction is used like a get-out-of-jail-free card

      You appear to be great exaggerating how the intoxication defense works.
      As far as I know, there is no such thing as an "addiction defense."

    14. Re:It's finally time to do it by HiThere · · Score: 1

      That's not clear. It's true that tobacco is reputedly the hardest drug to quit, but that is not synonmous with the highest social cost. And Freud (an informed witness) though that cocaine was more destructive than either alcohol or tobacco.

      But that' doesn't mean that making them illegal doesn't have a much higher social cost than having them be legal.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    15. Re:It's finally time to do it by ColdWetDog · · Score: 1

      Well, Freud was batshit insane, so take whatever he says with a grain of salt. But if you start to put together the costs to treat alcohol and tobacco related illness, they absolutely dwarf moneys spent on the other drugs. Now, saying that, it's a harder comparison to make since the 'harder' drugs are illegal and costly putting many of the addicts in a position to create societal harm (robbery, theft, etc). But MVAs due to drunks costs quite a bit of money as well. Back and forth ....

      It's probably not going to get anyone very far by stating 'my drug is worse than your drug' - I think the bottom line is that a) people will use them no matter what legal prohibitions are thrown in their way and b) we as a society have to come up with a reasonable balance between personal liberty, social costs and straight financial costs. The 'War on Drugs' turns out to be an unreasonable way to solve this problem.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    16. Re: It's finally time to do it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I hope I'm not the only person who disagrees with this 'life is hard, let the govt decide' sentiment. It seems completely insane to me.

    17. Re:It's finally time to do it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I agree with your conclusions, but it's a bit early to hold your one shiny data point into the air and proclaim "The data is in. We have achieved perfect knowledge. Further discussion is fruitless."

    18. Re:It's finally time to do it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And Sweden which has Double drug mortality compared to Netherlands while having only about 60% of the population. When confronted by this fact our minister of justice said that these skyrocketing mortality rates due to drug prohibition "is not the important part". I am really ashamed to be a swede for our inhumane politics. Brought up believing this country was worth being proud of...

      "Ok our politics kills people, but it's more important that youngsters don't risk getting a "sloppy brain" by smoking cannabis!". Like... REALLY? And it doesn't even help one bit. Youngsters still try cannabis at festivals no matter if it's legal or not.

    19. Re:It's finally time to do it by jwhitener · · Score: 1

      http://healthland.time.com/2010/11/23/portugals-drug-experience-new-study-confirms-decriminalization-was-a-success/

  6. Safe injection sites by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    We're seeing more places around the world with so called "safe injection sites" which seem to be helping people's safety. I've often wondered if it idea was taken a step further. Create safe haven drug houses, drugs are free, safe from impurities etc provided by the government (likely far cheaper than current policing costs). But you have to stay in a small padded room with nothing to do until the drugs leave your system, and be monitored by nurses. Would they be very popular? Would this all but eliminate the illegal drug trade if drugs were free and safe? I would think for all but the worst addicts, the novelty would be gone, and they would hopefully move on in life.

    1. Re:Safe injection sites by Razed+By+TV · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I've been thinking along these lines for a few years now. Make the drugs legal, regulate them, and possibly even have the government sell them. Use taxes on drugs to fund rehab programs. Give sex workers a way to get out from drug induced slavery. Cut the head off the cocaine cartel by growing it here or importing it from someone else. Take a blow to the coffers of street gangs as well as more organized criminals.

      The obvious number one downside is the potential for an increase in number of addicts. I never really had the answer for how to counter that. Social stigma? Government monitoring program on those who buy from the "drug store" that encourages rehabilitation? But maybe if you make the harder drugs extra affordable in an outpatient setting like you describe, it offers a way out for the addicts, while making it inconvenient for dabblers and college kids to get into the really nasty stuff. You could still sell (and tax, of course) the less addictive/destructive drugs, as you would alcohol and tobacco.

      And bonus points if this reduces violent crime rates by people trying to get money to fuel their need.

    2. Re:Safe injection sites by Trailer+Trash · · Score: 2

      I've been thinking along these lines for a few years now. Make the drugs legal, regulate them, and possibly even have the government sell them. Use taxes on drugs to fund rehab programs. Give sex workers a way to get out from drug induced slavery. Cut the head off the cocaine cartel by growing it here or importing it from someone else. Take a blow to the coffers of street gangs as well as more organized criminals.

      The obvious number one downside is the potential for an increase in number of addicts. I never really had the answer for how to counter that.

      The number of addicts decreases when you legalize drugs. No need to speculate, look at places that have actually legalized drugs. It seems counterintuitive, but the reason is pretty simple. Right now if you're addicted to something and you seek help you have to basically admit to being a criminal in order to get help. If drugs are legal - no problem. So people are more likely to ask for help when they don't have to risk jail by asking for help. Makes sense when you think about it.

    3. Re:Safe injection sites by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If someone gets caught, a fine and loss of the illegal substance.

      If someone voluntarily turns themselves in, no fine, and a way to get off of it--perhaps by a weening them off of it.

      I think in Vancouver, B.C., they have a place where it's legal. Like a building.

    4. Re:Safe injection sites by fafalone · · Score: 1

      ...increase in the number of addicts

      And why exactly do you think there would be an increase in the number of addicts? How many people do you know that just waiting to get out and pick up a heroin habit, if only it was legal?

      Turns out there's just no evidence addiction rates will increase. There's some evidence more people might try a drug, but for the most part people predisposed to drug addiction are not being stopped by prohibition.
      You may not be aware, since US media isn't very interested in going against the government, but Portugal has already decriminalized the possession of personal use quantities of drugs. All drugs. Cocaine and heroin too. They have NOT seen the number of addicts increase. In fact, the number of addicts GREATLY decreased, which is exactly what you expect to happen when addicts are treated like people who may need help and not as criminals who deserve a life-ruining felony conviction. (if you google for more information, be careful to note the distinction between addicts and people who have tried it, a lot of media outlets only report that 'tried it ever' has increased, and not that 'addicted to it' has gone down)

    5. Re:Safe injection sites by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If they are legal to use people will finally dare seeking help for their friends. Because then they don't have to fear anyone calling the police for them being users.

    6. Re:Safe injection sites by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The obvious number one downside is the potential for an increase in number of addicts.

      Not supported by evidence. The opposite is: The number of addicts decreases following legalization. Look it up. Read about it.

    7. Re:Safe injection sites by jwhitener · · Score: 1

      The obvious number one downside is the potential for an increase in number of addicts.

      If I recall correctly, when Portugal legalized drugs they did not see an increase in addicts.

    8. Re:Safe injection sites by RyoShin · · Score: 1

      I never really had the answer for how to counter that.

      I don't think you have to. Legalization means you can walk into a hospital/pharmacy/police station and ask where a good place for addiction assistance is without worrying that they'll call the cops or arrest you on the spot. We should be promoting that kind of behavior anyway ("Get yourself some help and we will help you get that help without arresting you"), but legalization will make that a far more reliable scenario.

      While I've no numbers to back up my speculation, I would think that many users/addicts consider getting clean at some point but decide against it due to the threat of, at best, an arrest record and so are driven back to the drugs.

    9. Re:Safe injection sites by Razed+By+TV · · Score: 1

      Legalization means you can walk into a hospital/pharmacy/police station and ask where a good place for addiction assistance is without worrying that they'll call the cops or arrest you on the spot.

      That's what decriminalization means, and it only deals with half of the problem. 2 possible outcomes:

      1) Drop in addicts is such that selling drugs is no longer profitable. Drug cartels go home, take up another profession.

      or

      2) The number of addicts drops by some percentage, leaving the other percentage of the addicts still buying from and still ultimately empowering some very undesirable people. In this case, you get to endlessly continue the war on drugs.



      Or you could legalize, as in, make drugs actually legal, to buy, sell, use, make - and affordable to the point at which cartels can't make the kind of money they do now. If we're lucky, number 1 above takes care of this for us; if we're not lucky, the drugs remain a profit maker for cartels and the like.

    10. Re:Safe injection sites by RyoShin · · Score: 1

      I didn't mean that my description was the entirety of legalization, just that it was a part of it why I believe that use would drop after legalization (as others have pointed out, Portugal (I think) has shown this as realistic.) Sorry for the confusion.

  7. drugs == health? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I think 'tis pretty clear that certain drugs (cocaine for example) are in fact bad for thine health. As such, 'tis hypocritical and disingenous for a world HEALTH organization to deregulate them. OTOH, not all drugs are equally unhealthy, and some of the unhealthiest (ethanol and tobacco) are already legal..

  8. Doctor Rockso does Cocaine by wisnoskij · · Score: 0
    --
    Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
    1. Re:Doctor Rockso does Cocaine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And Lars Ulrich is a panzy. But then these things are for Captain Obvious.

  9. Busy Body Types by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It will never happen as long as we have hypocritical, sanctimonious busy body types running things. People have to pay for their sin of using drugs according to them. The fact that the person is ruining their own health and relationships by abusing drugs is not payment enough for their sins we have to make it a criminal offense as well and feed the for profit prison industry and the gangsters who make a mint by pushing illegal drugs at inflated prices.

  10. Re:Can we have some Facts please? by wisnoskij · · Score: 5, Informative

    Relevant quote: "I have slowly and reluctantly come to believe that this has not been the result. Instead, drinking has generally increased; the speakeasy has replaced the saloon; a vast army of lawbreakers has appeared; many of our best citizens have openly ignored Prohibition; respect for the law has been greatly lessened; and crime has increased to a level never seen before." - John D. Rockefeller, Jr.

    --
    Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
  11. Drug use versus crime by tomhath · · Score: 1

    The social cost off allowing the use of certain drugs (alcohol and marihuana for sure, maybe a few others) is preferable to to the cost of trying to ban them. But anyone who thinks legalizing drugs like cocaine or opiates will reduce street crime is living in a dream world; take away selling drugs to earn a living and it will be replaced by a different crime.

    1. Re:Drug use versus crime by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Cocaine and opiates were perfectly legal in 1800s and up to at least 1910s.

    2. Re: Drug use versus crime by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Like what? Kidnapping? What? I'm curious.

    3. Re:Drug use versus crime by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 1

      It's very unlikely that the different crime would be as rewarding financially.

      The current situation results in huge flows of money into criminal organizations to the point where it destabilizes governments and funds massive corruption. Particularly in South and Central America.

      One of the major items in the current news is the flood of children from central america into the US. What is the root cause of this? The flow of money from the US to drug cartels in their countries of origin.

      Fix the drug problem in the United States and the flood of drug money to these criminals will dry up. It's very unlikely they will be able to find anything nearly as lucrative.

    4. Re:Drug use versus crime by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > dream world

      There is roughly zero evidence that this is true, and a fair
      amount of evidence that it ain't, from the American frontier,
      from Amsterdam, from Portugal, from parts of Britain in
      the late 50s, from Switzerland, and from a couple of US
      states in the 70s. How many drive by shootings have
      beer distributors engaged in, since the end of alcohol
      prohibition? ...

      > ...replaced by a different crime.

      Who is surprised that when you make something illegal,
      career criminals are drawn to it? That is not a good argument
      for making victimless crime illegal.

    5. Re:Drug use versus crime by Cinnamon+Beige · · Score: 1

      You mean back in the era when you did not have to call it an herbal supplement to make outrageous claims about what your miracle drug did?

      The two are related, actually: the sellers of patent medicine were the original drug dealers and operated when there was no such thing as an illegal drug. A lot of them were perfectly happy to add cocaine or opiates as they were discovered, so their 'medicines' had more than the placebo effect going to them, and patent medicine formulas were like the Coca-Cola formula--industry secrets.

      End result was that a lot of people ended up addicts without knowing.

      This, of course, made the patent medicine sellers quite happy. Addicted customers who don't even know what in the formula they're addicted to can't switch brands: you've basically got captive customers.

      The thing is? When I say 'a lot,' I mean that by modern standards--patent medicines were sold cheap, typically, were widely available, and all classes of society used them.

      The laws got made roughly when it hit critical mass, and there were enough addicts suffering the bad effects of addiction that it was the dead, rotting elephant in the room...

    6. Re:Drug use versus crime by ganjadude · · Score: 1

      and only outlawed for racist reasons (unlike marijuana, which had william henry hurst and dupont using the government to protect their industries, as well as racism)

      --
      have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
    7. Re: Drug use versus crime by tomhath · · Score: 1

      Do you really think the only crime in the US is selling and using illegal drugs? Things like robbery, extortion, prostitution, gambling, etc. don't exist in your world?

    8. Re: Drug use versus crime by ahodgson · · Score: 1

      Banning prostitution and gambling is just as stupid as banning drugs.

    9. Re:Drug use versus crime by HiThere · · Score: 1

      I beg to differ. Financial crimes are a lot more profitable. It's just that the people who comit them have friends in the government.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    10. Re:Drug use versus crime by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 1

      Not in these countries it isn't. The value of the drug trade for some of these South and Central American countries exceeds their GDP by a factor of 2.

  12. Re:Can we have some Facts please? by gweihir · · Score: 4, Informative

    Unfortunately, these are not facts, but pure fantasy. First, outlawing drugs does not reduce their usage. The alcohol prohibition indicates that the converse is true. Hence this prohibition increases harm. Second, the harm done is massively increased by outlawing drugs. Most drugs are actually relatively cheap to produce in medical-grade quality, with clear instructions and standardized quality, yet the dangerous low-quality stuff on the market fetches premium prices that then go to criminal enterprises. This situation is purely crated by illegality. Finally, people that are in prison for no good reason are unproductive and cost money as well.

    The whole thing is nothing but a massively misanthropic effort by religious and other authoritarians to prevent people from deciding about their own lives and to punish those that have other ideas as heavily as possible. It has zero intention to reduce negative effects and zero effect in that direction. It does increase negative effects massively though.

    --
    Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
  13. Use of drugs by Livius · · Score: 1

    The use of drugs is not exactly confined in its impact to the immediate use, which is the theory behind why it was a crime in the first place. But the other bad effects can be made illegal separately. A lot of them already are, in the form of some variation of practising pharmacy without a licence. And if a huge pharmaceutical company creates a drug that has virtually no value other than to create addictions (and deducts all the research and marketing expenses on its taxes), then someone should be going to jail.

    You can still say drugs are bad, which they are in many cases, but 'bad' does not necessarily mean something the criminal justice system should address. On top of which, a lot of the time it comes down to tastes in substance abuse. Alcohol is bad for all the same reasons, and compared to some drugs is worse.

    1. Re:Use of drugs by Rockoon · · Score: 4, Informative

      The use of drugs is not exactly confined in its impact to the immediate use, which is the theory behind why it was a crime in the first place.

      No, the theory behind the first drug laws in the United States was that chinese immigrants smoked opium, so the consumption of opium via smoking was prohibited while oral consumption (the white peoples consumption method) remained legal. A racist law written by racist people to harm a racial group.

      Drug laws continue to be completely racist, even though the excuses for the laws no longer are. When it wasn't racism against the chinese-americans, it was racism against the african-americans...

      --
      "His name was James Damore."
    2. Re:Use of drugs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      this!!! why can't i find a copy of "ain't nobody's business..." anywhere?

    3. Re:Use of drugs by Rockoon · · Score: 1

      why can't i find a copy of "ain't nobody's business..." anywhere?

      Not the original memphis five, but here you go.

      --
      "His name was James Damore."
    4. Re:Use of drugs by Livius · · Score: 1

      Drug use exists in other countries.

    5. Re:Use of drugs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And the US has, through the UN and other diplomatic pressure, foisted its drug laws off on the rest of the world, with few exceptions.

    6. Re:Use of drugs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      well played!

      anyway, this was hard to find for a few years, seems it's back on the shelf: http://www.amazon.com/Aint-Nobodys-Business-You-Consensual/dp/192976717X

  14. John D. Rockefeller, Jr. by wisnoskij · · Score: 4, Informative

    When Prohibition was introduced, I hoped that it would be widely supported by public opinion and the day would soon come when the evil effects of alcohol would be recognized. I have slowly and reluctantly come to believe that this has not been the result. Instead, drinking has generally increased; the speakeasy has replaced the saloon; a vast army of lawbreakers has appeared; many of our best citizens have openly ignored Prohibition; respect for the law has been greatly lessened; and crime has increased to a level never seen before.

    - John D. Rockefeller, Jr., 1932

    --
    Troll is not a replacement for I disagree.
  15. Re:Doctors @ WHO by rossdee · · Score: 3, Funny

    There hasn't been a good one since David Tennant

  16. This wont fly in the US by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    one reason $$$

    The police have too much $$$ tied up or dependent on this war (Grants for equipment, programs)
    The suppliers of the police would loose too much business (someone has to sell the police all their military grade weapons and equipment)
    The firms hired to incarcerate the guilty (if there's a lot fewer people in jail, these guys would go out of business). Of course with drug charges also come other petty crimes they would still be in jail for, but on fewer charges.

    While I totally agree with the WHO, I don't think it will work here for the above mentioned reasons. Not to mention the fact that since the United States does not have an industrial base anymore (being reliant on foreign countries for just about everything) these people, if not in jail, would have no jobs. this is the real crime, I think that if the US started domestically producing most of its own goods, the drug problem would decline on its own as these people could have productive lives if they so chose.

  17. lawfully employed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Very appropriate. Since the only reason they are employed is because of these stupid laws. They produce nothing.

  18. There is no magic bullet by Calavar · · Score: 2

    Ending prohibition didn't kill the mob. They just switched from bootlegging to trafficking narcotics, and they reached the height of their power in the 50s and 60s, long after the prohibition ended. In the same way, while legalizing marijuana might reduce crime here in the US, cartels in Mexico are Too Big to Fail. They won't pack up their things and head home quietly if marijuana is legalized; they'll just start peddling something new.

    As for legalizing highly addictive drugs like cocaine and heroin, I don't see how decriminalizing them good possibly be a good idea. The addiction rate for these drugs is 2.5 to 3 times that of alcohol. Heroin, etc. are dangerous and they weren't just banned because of moralizers.

    1. Re:There is no magic bullet by jeIIomizer · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Heroin, etc. are dangerous and they weren't just banned because of moralizers.

      The 'land of the free and the home of the brave' would not violate people's fundamental liberties for safety. These things are banned because of freedom-hating scumbags who despise the thought of living in a truly free country, and yet pretend that that is their goal. But we have the TSA, the NSA's mass surveillance, constitution-free zones, free speech zones, protest permits, DUI checkpoints, mass warrantless surveillance, unrestricted border searches, and a number of other policiies or agencies that violate the constitution and people's fundamental rights (thanks to people like you), so of course we've never been 'the land of the free.'

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    2. Re:There is no magic bullet by pauljlucas · · Score: 3, Insightful

      As for legalizing highly addictive drugs like cocaine and heroin, I don't see how decriminalizing them [could] possibly be a good idea.

      As someone else pointed out: as counter-intuitive as it might be, the data is in since Portugal ran the experiment.

      --
      If you reply, do so only to what I explicitly wrote. If I didn't write it, don't assume or infer it.
    3. Re:There is no magic bullet by Calavar · · Score: 2

      But we have the TSA, the NSA's mass surveillance, constitution-free zones, free speech zones, protest permits, DUI checkpoints, mass warrantless surveillance, unrestricted border searches, and a number of other policiies or agencies that violate the constitution and people's fundamental rights (thanks to people like you)

      So the fact that you need a prescription from a doctor to get penicillin, is that a violation of your fundamental rights? Hell yeah, I should be allowed to eat penicillin and Oxycontin for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. No goddamn elitist doctor is going to tell me otherwise. Same with BAC limits for driving. I know how much alcohol I can handle and no goddamn state trooper is going to tell me that .08 is the "legal limit." Lets do away with speed limits and other traffic regulations as well. All they do is provide a source of revenue for corrupt police departments. And what about nerve agents? Why can't I buy any? My right to mustard gas is protected under the second amendment dammit!

      Don't accuse me of straw-manning because that is exactly what you did when you conflated a heroin ban with warrantless wiretapping. There is such a thing as a reasonable ban.

    4. Re:There is no magic bullet by ColdWetDog · · Score: 2

      As for legalizing highly addictive drugs like cocaine and heroin, I don't see how decriminalizing them good possibly be a good idea. d

      It may not be a 'good' idea. It may simply be less bad that keeping them criminalized. Addiction is a medical diagnosis and it makes more sense to keep it in the medical sphere than the criminal one. Being addicted to anything is bad for you (that's inherent in the term). The consequences of that addiction can be modified by decriminalizing the drug (but keeping it regulated). Nobody but nobody is suggesting that we just drop cocaine packets from the sky. Well, perhaps a few folks might like that.....

      The addiction rate for these drugs is 2.5 to 3 times that of alcohol. Heroin, etc. are dangerous and they weren't just banned because of moralizers.

      Citation please. Nicotine is generally considered to be more addictive than anything else. Ask the Vietnam vet who has managed to get off of heroin but still smokes cigarettes.

      And yes, the drugs WERE banned because of problems (or at least perceived problems). However, it is absolutely clear that the criminal justice system hasn't done a very good job of solving those problems and has arguably created bigger problems than the drugs themselves.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    5. Re:There is no magic bullet by jeIIomizer · · Score: 0

      So the fact that you need a prescription from a doctor to get penicillin, is that a violation of your fundamental rights?

      I believe the government has no business banning such things, but there are people who would argue that some bans are significantly different than bans on recreational drugs.

      I know how much alcohol I can handle and no goddamn state trooper is going to tell me that .08 is the "legal limit." Lets do away with speed limits and other traffic regulations as well. All they do is provide a source of revenue for corrupt police departments.

      While I see what you're trying to do, this sort of nonsense is not going to work on me. Begone.

      My right to mustard gas is protected under the second amendment dammit!

      Indeed. There are a lot of freedom-hating scumbags who think that the 2nd amendment protects the right to own some modern weaponry but not others. They're mere hypocrites.

      Don't accuse me of straw-manning because that is exactly what you did when you conflated a heroin ban with warrantless wiretapping.

      Nope, that wasn't a straw man. You and your ilk are directly responsible for sacrificing freedoms in the name of safety, and at the expense of the constitution.

      There is such a thing as a reasonable ban.

      You can have all the 'reasonable' bans you want in North Korea, where you belong.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    6. Re:There is no magic bullet by jeIIomizer · · Score: 1

      So if you're intending to convince me that it's okay for the government to ban people from ingesting things into their own body, you're wasting your time, authoritarian. It'll never work.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    7. Re:There is no magic bullet by Calavar · · Score: 1

      Interesting. I wish I could read the linked study, but it's blocked by a pay wall. The summary mentions that Portugal decriminalized all drugs, but then it goes on to just talk about marijuana. It does mention that there was drop in HIV transmission but concedes that these could have been due to expanded treatment instead of decriminalization. They also mentioned that there were "more drugs seized by law enforcement," which makes me wonder if drugs were completely decriminalized. Overall, I'm not sure that this article proves that decriminalizing narcotics would be a good thing, but maybe it shows that decriminalizing them wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing.

      I feel like hard drugs should remain illegal because while a lot of marijuana related crime is largely artificial (i.e. it only exists because marijuana is illegal), not all hard drug related crime is. For example, one dealer could rob a rival dealer of his stash because he knows that his rival can't report the theft to the cops. But when it comes to heroin/meth related crimes, there are instances where people are so addicted to the drug that they rob stores just to come up with enough money for their next fix. Decriminalizing the drug wouldn't eliminate these kinds of crimes.

    8. Re:There is no magic bullet by narcc · · Score: 1

      Have seen the movie Key Largo?

      I bet you 2, 3 years, we get prohibition back. This time we make it stick. Bet you 2, 3 years prohibition comes back. Absolutely, yeah The trouble was, see, before, too many guys wanted to be top dog. One mob gets to massacring another, the papers play it up big, see, so what happens? Naturally, the papers play it up big, and the public get the idea prohibition’s no good, and if they can get rid of it, prohibition, I mean ... so the public votes out prohibition, that’s the end of the mobs. Next time it’ll be different, though. We learned our lesson, alright. Next time the mobs’ll get together.

    9. Re:There is no magic bullet by Calavar · · Score: 1

      While I see what you're trying to do, this sort of nonsense is not going to work on me.

      So, in your opinion, are DUI bans reasonable or not? Are speeding bans reasonable or not? These are yes or no questions. Either you admit that there is such a thing as a reasonable ban (although you might draw the line at a different place than I would), or you say that you'd be fine driving on a highway where there are people darting by at 150 mph while chugging a beer.

      You can have all the 'reasonable' bans you want in North Korea, where you belong.

      On the contrary, you are the one who wants to live in a country without bans, which this country is not. Tickets to Somalia only cost a few hundred bucks, and once you're there, you don't have to pay taxes. Begone. But Somalia is in a civil war, you say? Fine, then live in North Waziristan, where the locals hate the government just as much as you do. Of course, the locals will probably beat you to death for being an infidel, but at least you'll die happy knowing that there were no police there to restrict their natural right to use their arms.

    10. Re:There is no magic bullet by jeIIomizer · · Score: 1

      So, in your opinion, are DUI bans reasonable or not? Are speeding bans reasonable or not?

      I think reckless driving should be the offense, regardless of whether you're drunk or speeding. So no. If you're drunk, but you're somehow driving well, then I don't really care. If you're swerving everywhere and putting other people in danger of direct harm, then that's where my line is crossed.

      Either you admit that there is such a thing as a reasonable ban

      I consider banning murder a "reasonable ban." Your entire post was nonsense.

      On the contrary, you are the one who wants to live in a country without bans, which this country is not.

      Nonsense again. What you're trying to do is sacrifice fundamental liberties for safety, while equating things that are not fundamental liberties to fundamental liberties and pretending that I'm the same as you. That's what makes you the same as those scumbags who support the TSA, the NSA surveillance, etc. You are no different.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    11. Re:There is no magic bullet by Calavar · · Score: 1

      It may not be a 'good' idea. It may simply be less bad that keeping them criminalized. Addiction is a medical diagnosis and it makes more sense to keep it in the medical sphere than the criminal one. Being addicted to anything is bad for you (that's inherent in the term). The consequences of that addiction can be modified by decriminalizing the drug (but keeping it regulated). Nobody but nobody is suggesting that we just drop cocaine packets from the sky. Well, perhaps a few folks might like that.....

      I'll buy that. Arresting people for merely using drugs is probably not a good strategy. They should be enrolled in addiction prevention programs instead. But dealing such drugs should remain illegal, IMO. If it's illegal to buy penicillin or ketamine without a prescription from a doctor, I don't see why it should be legal to purchase drugs such as heroin.

      Citation please.

      "It is estimated that 32% of tobacco users will become addicted, 23% of heroin users, 17% of cocaine users, and 15% of alcohol users." So I was a bit off. It's more like 1.5x. And you are right, nicotine is more addictive. But according to a survey of psychologists and medical providers, heroin is 2x as physically harmful to the user as alcohol or tobacco, so I still think that it deserves special status.

    12. Re:There is no magic bullet by ColdWetDog · · Score: 1

      Heroin is somewhat different in that a heroin addict, while under the influence, isn't 'good' for much of anything in a societal sense, a nicotine addict could be programming the Next Big Thing while lighting up, but the dangerous effects of heroin are mostly due to it's illegal status. Injection (the most 'efficient' way to get high) is very dangerous as is the social and physical milieu surrounding an addict's lifestyle.

      Smoking tobacco is also a pretty dangerous delivery method. Neither drug, by itself, is as toxic as alcohol (or the entertaining and common mixture of tylenol and alcohol).

      So, one needs to be careful about how these stats are figured. It's easy to compare apples and oranges.

      My major point is that 'recreational' (as opposed to therapeutic) drug use is never 'good' for you but that society needs to balance a number of harms both to it's individuals and as an aggregate. Criminalization seems to be the worst answer of all.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    13. Re:There is no magic bullet by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So, you think driving while drunk is a "fundamental liberty"?

    14. Re:There is no magic bullet by jeIIomizer · · Score: 1

      Rather, I think you should be left alone as long as you're not not causing direct harm to others and aren't about to do so. That is fundamental.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    15. Re:There is no magic bullet by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe the Portugal model would work in the USA, but I'm not sure. It would be nice for it to be that simple. Sometimes, I think we are wired a little different over here in the States. I just can't see our society being able to handle unlimited access to hard drugs. We have done that before and large numbers of the populace wound up addicted. I will say my 24 years of law enforcement experience and 47 years of life experience has shown me a lot of destroyed lives. Gruesome violence due to drug-induced psychosis. Family members killing family members. Heroin addicts who have no purpose in life other than to get high and they will do anything to make that happen. Formerly stable families who implode when one spouse decides to party it up. The list of heinous behavior goes on and on. I'm sure you have all seen the pictures of addicts missing large chunks of flesh due to usage (Search krocodil to see some of it). The addiction aspect can't be trivialized away. You can't say it is no big deal, just because you have a friend who remains functional in society while using. If you seek out evidence of the carnage, you will find it. Whether legalizing the drugs and instituting addiction assistance can control all of these issues is a big unknown. My gut reaction is the populace, at least in the USA, can't handle it.

    16. Re:There is no magic bullet by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're going to catch a lot of flack for this point of view, but I'm behind you 100%

    17. Re:There is no magic bullet by WheezyJoe · · Score: 2

      Ending prohibition didn't kill the mob. They just switched from bootlegging to trafficking narcotics, and they reached the height of their power in the 50s and 60s, long after the prohibition ended.

      Well... by this thinking, the mob continued because prohibition didn't end. They moved from one prohibited product to another, but always a product the people wanted, but couldn't get because of a prohibition, and the mob was in a particularly good position (with their organization and international reach) to supply.

      In the same way, while legalizing marijuana might reduce crime here in the US, cartels in Mexico are Too Big to Fail. They won't pack up their things and head home quietly if marijuana is legalized; they'll just start peddling something new.

      What might happen if the cartels' market dried up is, at best, speculation. Could be risky, change is scary. But doing nothing and maintaining the status quo is worse. The cartels continue to get better and better at smuggling (they got submarines for fuck sake) and much, much richer while turning Central and South American countries into murderous hell-holes from which children flee to the U.S. on foot, and that ain't no shit.

      I don't see how decriminalizing them good possibly be a good idea. The addiction rate for these drugs is 2.5 to 3 times that of alcohol.

      I'm also nervous about cocaine and meth easily getting around (like, more than it already is). But the fact is, drug addiction and mental illness is just gonna have to be something that this country has to shut up, knuckle-down and deal with. It's not going away, and prohibition doesn't help. Prohibition only has power to do one thing... throw people in jail. It doesn't cure addiction (drugs make their way into prisons all the time), and distracts everyone from the larger issue of mental illness. It's like taking out the garbage: nobody wants to do it, nobody gets credit for doing it, but it's gotta be done or shit just piles up and gets worse.

      --
      Take it easy, Charlie, I've got an Angle...
    18. Re:There is no magic bullet by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes it is.

    19. Re:There is no magic bullet by blindseer · · Score: 1

      Heroin is a product of opiate prohibitions. The reason dealers sell heroin is the same reason that bootleggers sold moonshine, it's easier and more profitable to move the concentrated product than the safer and more dilute equivalent. People don't use heroin because they want to, they do it because that is all they can find.

      If we make things like codeine, laudanum, and other safer opiates available legally then heroin use would, by my estimation, practically disappear. Just like we don't see people sneak into a speakeasy any more to drink watered down industrial alcohol, remove the prohibition and regulate it then we can have safe substances replace the unsafe ones.

      Heroin is not the problem, it is a symptom. The problem is having people unable to seek treatment for their addiction without having to admit to being a felon first. Drug prohibitions is a cure that has been shown to be worse than the disease. I'm sure some idiot will still shoot up heroin after safe opiates are made available but we should not punish the rest of society because of them. The prohibitions on some drugs has made getting effective cold medications more difficult than getting a recreational drugs. I can find someone willing to sell me marijuana more easily than cough syrup that contains just the slightest amount of codeine or pseudoephedrine. Codeine works, pseudoephedrine works, the other crap sold over the counter doesn't. Heroin and codeine are effectively the same drug, just one is more potent than the other. Heroin I can find from someone that doesn't check ID, codeine requires piles of paperwork and signatures from five different people. Heroin is the free market functioning where the government failed.

      --
      I am armed because I am free. I am free because I am armed.
    20. Re:There is no magic bullet by blindseer · · Score: 2

      Nice straw man you've built.

      I don't like drunk driving laws because I don't care how much alcohol you've consumed so long as you keep your car in your lane and yield the right of way at intersections. As for speed limits? I've seen studies that suggest people drive more safely without posted speed limits. People drive to conditions and the pace of traffic rather than to some government contrived safe limit.

      My right to mustard gas is protected under the second amendment dammit!

      I believe that the people should be able to own any weapon the military and police are allowed to own. Mustard gas isn't a weapon as much as a tool of torture, which is why the US military does not use it any more.

      Don't accuse me of straw-manning because that is exactly what you did when you conflated a heroin ban with warrantless wiretapping. There is such a thing as a reasonable ban.

      Oops, I didn't see that until I started my post. If we are going to ban things then we should do so with the intent to reduce harm. Banning heroin has shown to increase harm on society. Banning things does not make them disappear, it just makes them illegal. We banned murder but it still happens. But by banning murder we've created a punishment for people that have harmed others. Banning heroin does not punish people for harming others, we punish people because... why exactly? We've created this logical loop, people get hurt because heroin is banned, therefore we must continue the ban.

      --
      I am armed because I am free. I am free because I am armed.
    21. Re:There is no magic bullet by Mr.CRC · · Score: 1

      "heroin is 2x as physically harmful to the user as alcohol or tobacco..."

      BECAUSE IT IS ILLEGAL!!!

    22. Re:There is no magic bullet by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ending prohibition didn't kill the mob. They just switched from bootlegging to trafficking narcotics, and they reached the height of their power in the 50s and 60s, long after the prohibition ended.

      You are correct. What needed to happen is that all the criminals created by prohibition had to die off because they were addicted to a life of crime. As you said, the 50s and early 60s were their height.

      > The addiction rate for these drugs is 2.5 to 3 times that of alcohol. Heroin, etc. are dangerous and they weren't just banned because of moralizers.

      I think your numbers are bogus. Please provide a supporting citation. Beware of comparing the results of different studies operating under different conditions.

    23. Re:There is no magic bullet by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > I wish I could read the linked study, but it's blocked by a pay wall

      If you google the title of a study or some of the phrases from the abstract you can usually find a freed up version.

      > But when it comes to heroin/meth related crimes, there are instances where people are so addicted to the drug that they
      > rob stores just to come up with enough money for their next fix. Decriminalizing the drug wouldn't eliminate these kinds of crimes.

      Free treatment clinics would eliminate those kinds of crimes. Furthemore you can't baseline at zero - just because it is illegal doesn't mean there are zero abusers. In fact, despite all the billions spent on the drug war, addiction rates have been essentially unchanged.

    24. Re:There is no magic bullet by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Well, if history tells us one thing for certain, then that if someone WANTS to get H, he WILL get H. Simply that.

      On the other hand, why do you think addiction rates would go up. Would you go "gee, H used to be so expensive, now it's cheap, let's shoot my brain into orbit!"? Would you?

      Why do you think anyone else would?

      A friend of mine is a social worker. So I get far more insight into the whole shit than I really would like to. And there is one thing all H addicts have in common: They reached the bottom of the barrel. H is usually "end of the line", along with crack (which, fortunately, so far has not reached our areas in quantity). By far not everyone gets "that low". I know quite a few people who do MJ or MDMA occasionally, and they do manage to hold down jobs (one of them being the Vice-CISO of a rather important company, another one a very successful lawyer, for some curious reason specialized in cases concerning drugs...).

      In a nutshell, by far not everyone who tried drugs will end up shooting H up his veins. Not even people who do other drugs regularly do. H is something you reach for when you already hit rock bottom. These people FULLY KNOW what they get into, even before they start. They KNOW they will be fully addicted and they know that this stuff will kill them. They are at the point of no longer giving a shit.

      And no law on the planet could change that either way. It's like trying to stop suicide terrorists with laws. Why the fuck does anyone think someone who pretty much gave up on himself cares about a law?

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    25. Re:There is no magic bullet by Calavar · · Score: 1

      So? Marijuana is also illegal, but it's physical harm score is lower than those for alcohol or tobacco.

    26. Re:There is no magic bullet by almechist · · Score: 1

      As for legalizing highly addictive drugs like cocaine and heroin, I don't see how decriminalizing them good possibly be a good idea. The addiction rate for these drugs is 2.5 to 3 times that of alcohol.

      What are your sources for this statement? Alcohol is much worse than heroin by any measure you wish to use. It's actually more addictive, in that withdrawal from alcohol can kill you, but nobody dies from heroin withdrawal. Furthermore, alcohol is poison to the body, regular use will destroy the liver, kill brain cells at an ungodly rate, raise blood pressure... I could go on, but you get the idea. Heroin, on the other hand, has virtually no negative physical side effects, with constipation being about the worst. You can take heroin every day and live a long and healthy life, whereas alcoholics tend to get sick and die before their time, not to mention "wet brain" which is a term for the mental deterioration that inevitably comes with heavy drinking. You can make statistics say anything you want, but there's not much doubt in the medical community that of the two, alcohol is by far the more dangerous drug. And that fact alone perfectly illustrates the insanity and hypocrisy of the drug war, and why it needs to end.

    27. Re:There is no magic bullet by Mr.CRC · · Score: 1

      Ok, I'll spell it out for you:

      Life of illegal pothead: Call up dealer, meet at parking lot, buy baggie. Go home and light up. Primary risk factor: contaminated pot, or bogus. Probability: very low. Bogus pot easily detected by experienced users. Consequence of smoking contaminated weed: hard to say. NOTE: The main risk of contamination comes from the US government spraying defoliants to kill marijuana fields in south and central America.

      Life of legal pothead: Go to pot shop, buy baggie. Go home and light up. Primary risk factor: contaminated pot, or bogus. Probability: extremely low. Same potential consequences.

      Life of illegal H addict:

      Wake up in desperation. Try to score extremely expensive, hard to find substance in very dangerous neighborhood while beginning to suffer withdrawal syndrome. After scoring, enter filthy public restroom and draw water from toilet (yes, they actually do this sometimes, I've seen a video of it) into non-sterile needle and syringe. Inject drug without prepping injection site with alcohol.

      Risk factors: Acquiring various life threatening infections such as HIV, Hepatitis, etc. due to use of non-sterile and/or shared needles, non-sterile water, and piercing unclean skin. Impurities in drug range from particulate matter which can clog capillaries, to toxic chemicals used to process the opium and not fully purified out, to cutting agents composed of whatever. Also, the concentration of the drug is completely unknown. Addict expects a certain strength. But if it turns out this batch is 66% pure instead of 33%, addict might die of overdose since ratio of therapeutic to fatal dose is only 2:1.

      Most addicts can't hold a job and so resort to a life of crime not because it is impossible to function while high on H, but because it's illegal and stigmatized, so no one would employ an addict, and the lifestyle of constantly trying to score makes employability very difficult to maintain.

      The illegal H addict is doomed to die of some miserable infectious disease, or overdose, if they don't get clean. Even if they do, a criminal record may prevent them from attaining full social acceptability. Since degree of social integration is a key predictor of tendency to become addicted to drugs, addict will always be at high risk of returning to drug use.

      Life of legal H addict:

      Wake up and get high using sterile needle obtained at pharmacy, and 100% pure heroin of pharmaceutical quality. No particulate matter, infectious microbes, no needle sharing, no chemical impurities, clean distilled water, use alcohol to clean skin to reduce infection risk to near zero.

      Go to work at some job. The main limitation is that an H addict would be unable to operate heavy machinery or perform safety-critical roles. But an H addict on a maintenance dose (not completely zonked) of H can function about the same as someone who takes an anti-anxiety medication.

      Purchase affordable heroin at pharmacy once a week for about $10/gram (100% pure), compared to $100/gram (10-90% concentration and highly impure) on the street. Low price and employability makes it unnecessary to steal to afford drug.

      Risk factors: Not many. Driving would be a bad idea. But the drug and the injecting under sterile, controlled conditions will not cause a significant increase in risks of shortened life due to serious health consequences. This is not different than the situation of diabetes and other patients who need to routinely inject medicines. If the drug is legal, this will also motivate less use of injection. Addicts will choose to maintain on an oral dose, and only inject once in a while for a "rush."

      NOTE: It may seem that 100% pure heroin would be more dangerous than weak, diluted street drug. This is false. The danger comes from variability of concentration, not the absolute concentration. If the concentration is known and fixed, the user can always draw the correct, safe dose.

    28. Re:There is no magic bullet by Calavar · · Score: 1

      Pretty much everything you say in your comment is wrong. Heroin is much more addictive than alcohol. (That same link shows that a survey of medical experts rated heroin as twice as physically harmful as alcohol.) People do die from heroin withdrawal. The long term effects of heroin use include gangrene near the injection site.

    29. Re:There is no magic bullet by Calavar · · Score: 1

      Okay, let me spell it out for you. First, it is clear that you did not read the page that I linked to because there are separate scores for "physical harm" and "social harm." The heroin related crime that you describe would fall under social harm, not physical harm, which is a measure of the deleterious medical effects only.

      Second, even if we do look at the social harm scores, the fact that heroin scores so much higher than marijuana shows that there is a lot more involved than just the illegality of the drug. Why is the heroin social harm score 2.5x that of marijuana? Is heroin "more illegal" than marijuana? No, it isn't: in most states possession of a small amount of heroin, like possession of a small amount of marijuana, is only a misdemeanor, not a felony. So it stands to reason that there is another factor that is not related to illegality that causes heroin to be so much more socially harmful. It's the fact that heroin is so addictive compared to marijuana or even alcohol (again, see the link I posted earlier) and addicts go to desperate measures to get their fix. People rob stores for cigarettes, so why wouldn't they do it for heroin, which is more addictive than tobacco?

      Getting back to the main point about physical harm: Yes, heroin is mostly more harmful because of the fact that it is injected. But the fact of the matter is that 99% of people in this country cannot be trusted with injecting themselves with anything. The other 1% are trained nurses and physicians. There is a reason that when you get sent home with pain meds after a surgery, they give you pills and not an IV drop. While an IV drop would reduce the amount of drug you need (because it goes directly into the blood instead of traveling through the digestive tract first) and would reduce the chance that you'd screw up the dosage (because with an IV drop you can't forget to take a pill or forget that you already took one), putting an IV in is not easy. Especially putting one into yourself. Especially when everything has to be 100% sterile lest you get a blood borne disease. If heroin was legalized, how many people would really buy an expensive autoclave for their syringes (and take the time to use it every time, even when they really need a rush but have to get to work in 30 minutes) or dispose of them in a sharps container (which must them be specially disposed of by an expensive biowaste service)?

  19. Drugs were not always illegal in the US by cphilo · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Here is a recipe from my great-grandma's cookbook. Cough Syrup Syrup of squills four ounces, syrup of tolu four ounces, tincture of bloodroot one and one-half ounces, camphorated tincture of opium four ounces. Mix. Dose for an adult, one teaspoon repeated every two to four hours. She used to be able to go to the pharmacist and get tincture of opium.

    1. Re:Drugs were not always illegal in the US by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      > Drugs were not always illegal in the US

      Not only that, but consider this - it took a constitutional amendment to make alcohol illegal. But now it only takes the bureaucratic decree of a government agency (DEA) to make any other drug illegal. That's profoundly fucked up.

    2. Re:Drugs were not always illegal in the US by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Laudanum is excellent for soothing irritated babies.

    3. Re:Drugs were not always illegal in the US by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I suspect the fentanyl patches I have to use as a 25 year old bone cancer survivor are a little more potent than your great-grandma's opium tincture, but what do I know besides the LD50 of each patch dosage I'm taking if the delivery mechanism fails - either by delivering too much or not enough (remember we're dealing with skin, sweat, mild patch adhesive rash allergy, and the general motion and friction of three days of activity with no re-sticks..)?

  20. Legalize drugs by ryanw · · Score: 2

    I was initially hesitant with the legalization of pot in California and the other states. But what's fascinating is that now people get their weed from controlled environments instead some back alley with a drug dealer pushing lots of other stuff as well.

    I could be 1000% wrong as I have no data to back this up, but it made me think the streets have been safer in California since the legalization of pot. Anyone have any data to back that idea up? Any stats of declining use of other more serious drugs? Maybe it hasn't been enough time yet?

    1. Re:Legalize drugs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I was initially hesitant with the legalization of pot in California and the other states.

      All you seem to care about is safety. In reality, all drugs should be legalized in the name of freedom.

    2. Re:Legalize drugs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I was initially hesitant with the legalization of pot in California and the other states.

      It is not legal in California. Sure, there are more than a few doctors who hand out recs so long as no harm would be done, rather than whether there is medical need like the law says, but there are still many who get denied. Then there are those who are too dumb or lazy to even get a rec... there is still a HUGE illegal pot market in California. I do suspect though that a much larger portion of it is grown domestically, and is even purchased upstream semi-legally. A lot of low-life addicts tend to just have their friends with recs buy extra for them instead of going to gangsters to get it. There are no doubt growers who sell to both legal dispenseries and gangsters, at least reducing dependancy on the ultra-violent mexican gangs. So yes there is a reduction in crime, but there would be even more reduction if it was completely legal.

    3. Re:Legalize drugs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You've heard of those wiley Dutch, right? Legal pot and everything? Well, not quite. It's not actually all that legal as such, but let's not go into that now. More to the point: Not long ago they changed policy where coffee shops* were now prohibited to sell to foreigners, complete with widely derided and rather naïve registration requirement to "prove citizenship". After all, even without the government being overtly distrustful of pot users they would not necessarily want to end up with an officially recognised "pot user" registration to their name. Ostensibly the goal was to reduce "drug tourism" along the borders, most notably in the south. Instead what happened was the re-appearance of the street dealer and a big soaring up of related crime.

      Still, the relevant ministers keep on insisting that it's a great success. Makes you wonder what they're really after.

      * Local euphemism for pot cafes.

    4. Re:Legalize drugs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Pot has been legalized in California!? Awesome! /snark

      Colorado & Washington states are the only states that have legalized pot (so far), BTW. There's plenty of data out there to answer your questions, people are watching it very closely. Pretty positive results, across the board, too.

    5. Re:Legalize drugs by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Yes, but it's one of the few instances where you actually can't argue that you need to cut freedoms in the name of safety, because BOTH freedom AND safety are on the same side of the equation this time.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  21. HEROIN® brand diamorphine by tepples · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Say a government wants to reduce harm without too much of a shock to the prison industry. Perhaps it could split the difference by approving medical diamorphine but giving the trademark on HEROIN® (diamorphine) back to Bayer. That way the feds could still go after street dealers for misusing the name "HEROIN".

    1. Re:HEROIN® brand diamorphine by itsenrique · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I think what most people are suggesting is more like local police (or federals) still go after street dealers because legal regulated sale will be allowed that by and large will be the norm because people know it's safe. Like ALCOHOL. Sure, theres a few old timers and rural folk still running moonshine stills, but really, almost all alcohol sale and consumption in the US is legal and taxed. So, there will be some sort of clinic or dispensary where you to go to get your cocaine or heroin. Perhaps there are limits to amount and refusal of sale if customer is already visibly intoxicated, there are hours when sale is restricted (to prevent never-ending binges), and proper ID is required but hopefully goes back to no centralized database. This looks an awful lot like how we handle liquor already, it would be a little more complicated, but not much.

    2. Re: HEROIN® brand diamorphine by tarius8105 · · Score: 1, Insightful

      So I guess driving is racist. I guess flying international is racist. I guess checking out a book at your local library is racist. Identification is not racism, it is identification of an individual.

    3. Re:HEROIN® brand diamorphine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So, who is going to run these clinics where violent addicts are ready to attack anyone who gets between them and their fix?

    4. Re:HEROIN® brand diamorphine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Say a government wants to reduce harm without too much of a shock to the prison industry. Perhaps it could split the difference by approving medical diamorphine but giving the trademark on HEROIN® (diamorphine) back to Bayer. That way the feds could still go after street dealers for misusing the name "HEROIN".

      Did you just suggest that street dealers could be influenced by trademark, as if they really give a shit about using someone else's brand name?

      Give me a break. What's next, threaten them with not paying taxes on their transactions? Oh yeah, you really got 'em running scared now.

    5. Re: HEROIN® brand diamorphine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      New to this conversation.

      If the intent to to discriminate, it's racist.

      Driver's licenses or state IDs can be expensive, especially if the state outsources it to a third party to save money.

      Expensive ID discriminates the poor.

      I think black people tend to make up more of the poor than not.

    6. Re:HEROIN® brand diamorphine by itsenrique · · Score: 1

      People behind glass most likely in areas where there really is a violence problem. Much like convenience stores. The other thing you may be forgetting is that prices of hard drugs are SKY high due to all the hands involved in it. Cocaine doesn't have to bankrupt anyone, nor Heroin or any other "expensive" street drug.

    7. Re:HEROIN® brand diamorphine by HiThere · · Score: 1

      Actually, I'm in favor of much less regulation than that. MUCH less. My feeling is that if someone wants to kill themselves with an overdose of morphiates, that should be their right. Just that it shouldn't happen by accident. So I am strongly in favor of simple, explicit, and informative packaging requirements. Sort of like a cross between tobacco and liquor, with an extra prohibition on advertising.

      Now I will grant that some states require you to buy alcohol at the stat dispensary, but that's not on my agenda.

      P.S.: I think it should also be legal to grow white poppies and marijuana for commercial distribution, as well as for home use. Just not to advertise it. And commercial sale to end users should require that informative packaging labeling. Which would drive up the cost a bit for small scale commercial operations. But the intent is not to drive up the cost, but rather to ensure purity of the merchandise, and that people can (if they read) find out what they're buying.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    8. Re: HEROIN® brand diamorphine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It'll only be racist against vampires and the invisible man. Everyone else shows up on camera.

    9. Re:HEROIN® brand diamorphine by tepples · · Score: 1

      It'd provide yet another way to prosecute unlicensed dealers for dealing. Getting a dealer on (civil) trademark infringement followed by (criminal) contempt for violating an injunction is like getting a mob leader for tax evasion, but it's still another tool that the government could use to make sure that a decriminalized recreational drug comes from a safe source.

    10. Re: HEROIN® brand diamorphine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In the case of flying international, yes it is fucking racist. The whole point of passports is to prevent some nationalities (and hence races) from travelling to the good parts of the world (you know, where the jobs and healthcare are).

      I am a Dutch (and therefore EU) citizen when I was born in another country and have never been to the Netherlands or Europe, The only justification is that two of my grandparents were dutch before they left to live abroad. If that is not racist nationalism, I don't know what is.

      Other than racist immigration policy, what gives me more rights to live in NL than a Somalian or Tongan?

  22. It Has Not Failed by JimSadler · · Score: 0

    It is true that the war on drugs is not getting as good a result as it could get. The same error was made in prohibition. Going after the user with the full power of law rather than going after dealers is the real answer. If we make it clear that a life long set of penalties will be applied on the very first, tiny violation the use of dope will fall to almost zero. For example a life long ban on the operation of any type of motorized vehicle might be applied on the first offense. An ongoing parole fee could be stacked on as well. The idea being that designing the system so that a one time user would live a life with very low wages would send a powerful message. No inheritance or other way out of low wage existence would be allowed. When people see friends and family members forced to live a very restricted life due to a drug conviction the message stays in stark view at all times. Society has seen a trend of hiding punishments rather than making punishments visible. For example we have teens that leave school during the school day without permission. A semester of wearing a pink, jail like uniform to school as well as duties such as picking up litter or shoveling snow off school sidewalks with their friends looking on would break up that nonsense quickly. The same is true of executions. Instead of hiding executions the effect upon the public will only work if those executions are very much in public view.

    1. Re:It Has Not Failed by mattsday · · Score: 1

      I hope this isn't what you actually believe, as it sounds like an authoritarian nightmare to me! What would happen in your little imagined scenario is that the powers of control would inevitably extend to all undesirable* behaviour and would one-day collapse under its own weight or civil war -- after millions suffered.

      * Undesirable being defined by the same nutcases who put this law in to place and could include being homosexual, jewish or having drugs planted on them

      Back in the real world, I firmly believe punishment should fit the crime. In the case of taking drugs I can't think why it's a crime and why we would seek punishment! Someone at home getting high doesn't even deserve a trivial fine, let alone having their life ruined.

      The only time I see it coming in to play is when mixed with other activties. High controlling machinery or a vechicle? Harsher sentencing. High looking after kids? Child neglect, harsher sentencing. Vandalism or assault... you get the idea.

      There will be a negative impact to society where people get hooked on drugs and drop in productivity, but we already have problems with alcoholism, gambling, etc...

      --
      Now there's one hoopy frood who really knows where his towel is!
    2. Re:It Has Not Failed by Ultra64 · · Score: 1

      Penalties against possession of a drug should not be more damaging to an individual than the use of the drug itself.

    3. Re:It Has Not Failed by jeIIomizer · · Score: 1

      We don't need to make our nation any more unfree, and we don't need schools to become any more like awful prisons. Vanish, authoritarian scumbag.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    4. Re:It Has Not Failed by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 1

      So what exactly is the tax rate on Christians in your part of Iraq, "Jim"?

    5. Re:It Has Not Failed by Antonovich · · Score: 1

      3 takers, let's see how many more you get :-).

    6. Re:It Has Not Failed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why don't we just torture them to death, slowly, and show it on live TV?

      Better yet, torture their innocent FAMILY MEMBERS to death in front of them first, then torture them to death.

      (all this, of course, to prevent a "crime" that has no victim)

    7. Re:It Has Not Failed by Fjandr · · Score: 1

      Hopefully this is tongue-in-cheek, though I know there are actually those out there who wholeheartedly believe such tripe. Why not make execution the punishment for everything? Obviously that will stop crime, and is 100% justifiable.

    8. Re:It Has Not Failed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Death for all crimes? The Edo approve! But Wesley does not...

    9. Re:It Has Not Failed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      you're missing the simplicity of the plan: just beat them into shape and save all this <airquotes>analysis</airquotes> bullshit. that's always worked well in the past

    10. Re:It Has Not Failed by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      It's really hard to tell whether you're actually serious or just trolling. Well, allow me to point to the ultimate kind of punishment for drug related issues: Killing people. And believe it or not, there are countries where people are killed for having drugs. Here a brief list.

      People fucking get KILLED there for touching drugs. Not "wearing pink" or doing some menial work, or something else silly. The big one. You're not carrying a bucket to pick up crap, you kick it.

      And STILL people do drugs.

      Maybe, just maybe, you MIGHT realize when you look at that, that it's not the drugs themselves that are a problem. Hell, people shooting H up their veins are already looking at a death sentence. A long and agonizing one. And they FUCKING KNOW IT. And they STILL do that shit.

      And you really want to tell anyone that drugs are the problem? Drugs are the fake escape from the actual problem. Solve the underlying problem and you solve the "drug problem" implicitly.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    11. Re:It Has Not Failed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is Draconian punishment. Draco was ancient Greek king who developed a written criminal code which made death the penalty for many crimes.
      Plutarch states: "And Draco himself, they say, being asked why he made death the penalty for most offences, replied that in his opinion the lesser ones deserved it, and for the greater ones no heavier penalty could be found."

  23. Re:Fine, but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Right, because down that road comes denying medical coverage to anybody into "extreme" sports, not adhering to the government-approved diet, people not getting enough exercise, people in dangerous jobs, etc..

    I'm sure we can find some way to deny your medical coverage for some unhealthy act you're guilty of.

  24. Conservatives have been making the case... by Nova+Express · · Score: 0

    ...to end drug prohibition since at least 1996, on both practical and 10th Amendment grounds. Statists love the "War on Drugs" because it gives them more ways to control people.

    Meanwhile, President Obama, the first president who openly admitted to using illegal drugs, has cracked down harder on medical marijuana and other uses of "choom" far harder than Bush ever did.

    --
    Lawrence Person (lawrencepersonh@gmailh.com (remove all "h"s to mail)

    http://www.lawrenceperson.com/

    1. Re:Conservatives have been making the case... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Clinton admitted to using drugs. But he didn't inhale, so that made it okay.

    2. Re:Conservatives have been making the case... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is not a conservative vs. liberal debate. I'm very conservative in many ways and I am absolutely against prohibition. It's a stupid vs. realistic argument, not a political one.

  25. Free demo by tepples · · Score: 2

    Just banning In App Purchases would be a big move at this point in time.

    Without IAPs, what's the correct way to provide a limited playable version without offering the first episode without charge and offering additional episodes as IAPs? This "shareware" model, where the prices for additional episodes are stated up front, worked for Doom.

    1. Re:Free demo by ultranova · · Score: 1

      Without IAPs, what's the correct way to provide a limited playable version without offering the first episode without charge and offering additional episodes as IAPs?

      Put the free limited and paid full versions in the store as separate apps.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    2. Re:Free demo by Bing+Tsher+E · · Score: 1

      Many fairly high quality apps do just that. Often enough, if I encounter the 'free' version of something, I make certain that the publisher doesn't have a 'paid' version I can install instead.

      When the paid version is a 99 cent app, or even a few dollars, if the prospectus on the App Store page, and a decent number of user comments, makes it look good enough, I'd rather just buy it than bother with the 'free' version in the first place.

      I shy away from IAP offerings specifically because I'd rather just pay for the fricking thing and be done with it, than have the app publisher chisel away at me for cash. A publisher confident to charge $3.99 for an app, with a large enough count of downloads on the App Store page, and enough authentic appearing positive User Comments, is a selling point. Sure, there is some real junk out there that is just a con job, but it's not that hard to suss it out.

    3. Re:Free demo by tepples · · Score: 1

      On mobile platforms like iOS that run apps in separate jails, how would the user who has just purchased the paid version move documents in an app or saved progress in a game from the free version to the paid version?

    4. Re:Free demo by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Via the server. Any good game uses a server to store or backup the game status. Otherwise you'd lose everything if you temporarily removed the app.

    5. Re:Free demo by tepples · · Score: 1

      Which ends up running up a data bill for the user when the pair of applications bounces the data off iCloud.

  26. CORRECTION by tepples · · Score: 1

    "a limited playable version without offering" snuck in and survived preview. It should be "to provide the first episode without charge". I apologize for wasting your time.

  27. Better yet by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Decriminalize all drugs and when a ton of marijuana is seized at the border send it to a lab to confirm it is safe (good quality, safe for consumption) then sell to the public in a controlled manner. Most drugs could be handled this way. The war on drugs will quickly end when it is funded with drugs.

    1. Re:Better yet by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Erh... one flaw in that plan. If MJ ain't illegal, what legal grounds is there to seize it?

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  28. Effects on dependents by tepples · · Score: 0

    "Protecting others from the effects of drug use" would have to include neglect of dependents due to excessive spending on recreational drugs, as well as congenital impairments caused by the use of certain substances by a pregnant woman. One's children do not consent to such effects. This is where the "think of the children" crowd gets its ammo.

    1. Re:Effects on dependents by Immerman · · Score: 1

      Because obviously trying to increase the costs of the drugs, and throwing those parents in prison for years if they get caught in possession of a few doses improves the situation.

      --
      --- Most topics have many sides worth arguing, allow me to take one opposite you.
    2. Re:Effects on dependents by tepples · · Score: 1

      I was under the impression that a lot of drugs could harm the fetus even before the second missed period.

    3. Re:Effects on dependents by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      It is very possible to find sensible levels for this. Just because you take drugs doesn't mean you're a bad parent. Take my dad for example. My dad was and is a heavy smoker and he even drinks a glass of beer now and then, but he still is a good dad!

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  29. Meth is already legal in the USA by tepples · · Score: 2

    Desoxyn (methamphetamine hydrochloride) is a prescription drug in the same schedule as Adderall and Ritalin.

    1. Re:Meth is already legal in the USA by ColdWetDog · · Score: 1

      How about this? Marijuana (that stuff in the joint over there) is a DEA Schedule I drug - 'high potential for harm, no accepted medical use'. Marinol (concentrated THC, one of the major active ingredients in the joint) is a Schedule III drug (like low dose Vicodin*, Tylenol with codeine and a bunch of other minor pharmaceuticals).

      Don't expect logic or rational thinking here. It simply not allowed.

      *Yeah, I know, it's going to move 'up' to Schedule II soon

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    2. Re:Meth is already legal in the USA by tepples · · Score: 1

      The logic is that in order to have an "accepted medical use", a substance has to be safe and effective, and no smoked plant is "safe" by the FDA's standard. The only problem is that that standard would also place tobacco in Schedule I.

    3. Re:Meth is already legal in the USA by ColdWetDog · · Score: 1

      Except this isn't the FDA - it's the DEA who has it's own incoherent and opaque methodology to determine which class a drug or chemical falls into.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    4. Re:Meth is already legal in the USA by tepples · · Score: 1

      I'm aware that they are separate agencies. My point is that one agency relies on the other agency to define "accepted medical use".

    5. Re:Meth is already legal in the USA by blindseer · · Score: 1

      Also, heroin is illegal while more potent opiates like oxymorphone and hydromorphone are not. Opiates that are just slightly less potent than heroin, like hydrocodone, is handed out like candy but only if mixed with enough Tylenol that it is nearly lethal. People rarely die from opiate overdose any more but Tylenol poisoning is now not uncommon. We've traded one poison for another. Good job DEA! I thought you were supposed to reduce poisoning? I guess if people die from Tylenol then it's not your problem any more.

      --
      I am armed because I am free. I am free because I am armed.
    6. Re:Meth is already legal in the USA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is rational thinking. But the focus is not on reducing harm, but on making money.

  30. There is at least one substantial benefit by davidwr · · Score: 1

    "...while providing no substantial benefit."

    I'm going to be pedantic and call BS on this one. If they hadn't been so bold and instead said "while in almost all cases failing to provide enough benefits to justify the cost" I wouldn't be making this reply.

    Why am I upset about their hyperbole? Because it cuts into their credibility.

    What's the specific counter-example I can provide? Read on..,.

    In some societies, criminalization leads to social stigmatization even if the laws are not enforced or only lightly enforced, a stigmatization that would be absent or less strong otherwise. You see this in some parts of the United States, where the existence of little-enforced laws such as laws against littering, talking on the cell phone while driving, etc. reinforce and amplify the existing social stigma against such activities to the point that it's the stigma of being seen doing "the wrong thing," not the fear of getting a ticket or getting arrested, that drives people to follow the social norm.

    Even if the enforcement of drug laws doesn't lead to reduced usage in and of itself, the stigmatization can.

    Reducing the use of harmful drugs can benefit society in many ways, including fewer early deaths and fewer health problems.

    The key though is that whether stigmatization by itself will lead to less drug use or not will vary from society to society and even sub-culture to sub-culture. A sub-culture which is known for being defiant of the larger society may in fact see doing things that are stigmatized by the larger society as a way to rebel. The 1960s young-adult/youth counterculture sub-culture in the United States is one example where a "main culture" stigmatizing an activity may lead to more, not less, overall use.

    Now, does the existence of drug laws result in an enhanced stigma that leads to overall reduced drug use worldwide? I don't know. Is there someplace on this planet where drug laws are creating or reinforcing a stigma where the social stigma (not necessarily the fear of being caught by the police) is driving lower drug use? Almost certainly.

    What's the bottom line?

    * Don't summarily throw out drug laws worldwide.
    * Do encourage every country and locality to ask itself to examine the totality of effects of its drug laws both within its own borders and on the rest of the world, and make an educated, informed decision about whether to change the drug laws to achieve the desired goals (which I assume are nominally a safer and healthier society, but which I sadly acknowledge may include things like keeping trading partners happy, keeping a dictator's friends flush with cash, and other factors that are irrelevant to the nominal purpose of drug laws), and if so, how.

    --
    Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
  31. Re:Can we have some Facts please? by jeIIomizer · · Score: 2

    The bottom line is that outlawing drugs reduces their use, and correspondingly reduce their negative effects on society.

    Even if I were to accept that as true (I don't), I would still be 100% opposed to the drug war, because it violates people's fundamental liberties. Such a thing would never be allowed in any truly free country, safety or no safety. It's people like you who cheer on the TSA, the NSA surveillance, free speech zones, DUI checkpoints, etc. simply because you think they keep people safe, without caring that you're supposed to be living in a free country.

    --
    If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
  32. The problem is addiction, not the use of drugs by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 4, Insightful

    You can be addicted just as easily to legal drugs as to any substance on the federal schedule. You can be addicted to behaviors like gambling and eating. This problem needs to be addressed medically.

    1. Re:The problem is addiction, not the use of drugs by msobkow · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Even addiction is not a problem. Back in the day when opium was legal, many people were addicted to it. But they had ready access to a cheap supply of their drug of choice, so they were able to function in society, hold down a job, etc.

      Caffeine is another good example. Lots of people are addicted to caffeine, but function in society.

      Even tobacco (evil though it is) has functional addicts.

      The point is that it's not addiction itself that is a problem, but the stigmatization of addicts by society and the crimes they're forced to commit to feed black market pricing. Put an opiate addict on a methadone program, and they stop breaking into houses to feed their habit.

      Addiction is not a *good* thing, but it should be a personal choice and health issue, not an excuse for ostracizing someone from society.

      --
      I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
    2. Re:The problem is addiction, not the use of drugs by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 1

      More precisely, habituated behavior is a spectrum condition. There is a point when any habituated behavior, such as cleaning the house, can become a counterproductive addiction. One way we will be able to treat this reliably and medically.

    3. Re:The problem is addiction, not the use of drugs by Mr.CRC · · Score: 1

      Bingo. Thank goodness, there's someone with a brain.

      Addiction is a problem only to the extent that we define it to be a problem and then as a result do everything in our power to make it as big a problem as possible to justify the definition, which is really rooted either in aesthetics, or theistic (and false) world view.

    4. Re:The problem is addiction, not the use of drugs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...and watching TV series... and playing computer games...

  33. One problem... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    But then what excuse will we have to put all the poor black people into for profit run prison systems and turn them back in to slave labor?

  34. What do you mean, "no substantial benefit"? by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

    You think civil forfeiture and revenues from private prisons are of no substantial benefit to US law enforcement's cash flow? -- sincerely yours, your unfriendly neigborhood cop.

    --
    Ezekiel 23:20
  35. Re:NO AGEISM by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 1

    I really, really had to look to find the "ageism" in the comment you referenced. And yes, by using my magnifier I could read the fine print.

  36. OMFG by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Hey Methadone clinic GFY I'm getting back on the good shit!

    1. Re:OMFG by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Good for you. It's less toxic to inject Heroin than Methadone anyway...

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  37. War on Drugs - Failure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Perhaps the legalization of diet pills that used to work, for example, amphetamines, would reduce the epidemic of obesity and related illnesses such as heart disease and diabetes.

    1. Re:War on Drugs - Failure by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 1

      And dentists would no longer have to move to Portland to make a pile of money.

    2. Re:War on Drugs - Failure by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      As long as people don't overdo it with the train of logic "if I take one pill a day, I lose 5 pounds a week, so with 2 I should lose 10", I'm with you.

      IMO most of the stuff should make it a requirement that you have a through chat with your doc and a complete and through information about what the stuff does and what dangers are coming with it.

      After that, gimme one good reason why someone should not get whatever chemicals he wants to get to put into his body in the way he enjoys the most? He got all the information to make an informed decision. If that is a poor decision, it is HIS problem.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  38. Most Dangerous Game by Arkiel · · Score: 1

    Drugs would probably be a lot safer if people didn't have to worry about SWAT kicking in the door and tossing a couple flashbangs into your infant's crib.

  39. Bad Idea, End of Story by NormAtHome · · Score: 0

    There is just way too much potential for legalized drugs to go sideways and in a serious way. Ferry operators, crane operators or any heavy equipment, train operators, pilots, your investment manager, or any person in a critical position where one wrong mistake could cause lots of deaths or financial loss i.e. crash the stock market. Would you really want someone who's high or jonesing for their next fix piloting the ferry you're on or operating the crane that's lifting an I-Beam at the construction site you happen to walk by on the way to work?

    1. Re:Bad Idea, End of Story by jeIIomizer · · Score: 1

      I wouldn't want someone who is drunk, either. Therefore, ban alcohol. Are you an idiot?

      Besides, safety is not what matters. If you despise freedom that much, I'm sure North Korea would be happy to have you.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    2. Re:Bad Idea, End of Story by sdack · · Score: 1

      Why not ban alcohol? I have not had any alcohol for years. How about you? How many days can you go without?

    3. Re:Bad Idea, End of Story by jeIIomizer · · Score: 2

      I've not had alcohol at all, but I still support other people's freedoms to drink it.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    4. Re:Bad Idea, End of Story by sdack · · Score: 1

      I do not support it, but I am also not a violent or only angry person. So everyone who disagrees here with me know you are save from me!

      I see daily what alcohol can do to people. I have had friends who died at an age of 30 to failing livers. Others who are still alive drink 4l-8l of cider a day. They cannot stop even if they wanted to, because their liver has adjusted to these amounts and a rapid change will cause a liver failure. They first need to get their consumption down before a rehab takes them or else their need for alcohol would interfere with the other alcoholics who can actually stop drinking.

      These are extremes, but many people who drink alcohol only occasionally do not realize that they are actually addicted to it. They often say something like they need their beer on the weekend or else they cannot unwind. They do not know how true this actually is. They balance their addiction with work, but if they lose their job for someone reason do they enter into a spiral.

      I do not even like talking to people who are intoxicated. They fail to listen, they fail to argue, and they only want to enjoy their high on alcohol, meaning, they want to "have fun". The only people who enjoy the company of drunk people are other drunk people.

    5. Re:Bad Idea, End of Story by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      I see daily what alcohol can do to people.

      So what?

      I know people who could say the same about angle grinders. Those things rip people to shreds in a really nasty way. Should we ban them too?

      What about chainsaws?

      Motorbikes?

      Cars?

      Light aircraft?

      What about foods high in cholesterol? Heart disease is a killer.

      High salt food?

      Bacon?

      I have had friends who died at an age of 30 to failing livers. Others who are still alive drink 4l-8l of cider a day.

      So? That sucks for them and it sucks for you. I, however, know plenty of people who drink and are still very much alive and non addicted. I happen to be able to enjoy a tipple without doing such things, as do most people.

      These are extremes, but many people who drink alcohol only occasionally do not realize that they are actually addicted to it.

      Um...

      I see where this is going. You're basically going to assume that even occasional drinkers are addited, therefore everyone is an addict therefore everyone should stop therefore we should ban it.

      Yep, I like a drink or two. I'd be annoyed if you made me stop drinking because I (a) like the taste and (b) like the mild buzz and relaxation when I have a sensible amount. What's wrong with that?

      Your assertion that I would fall into a spiral as opposed to getting another job is utterly unfounded.

      They balance their addiction with work, but if they lose their job for someone reason do they enter into a spiral.

      Frankly, excesive alcohol consumption is a really big problem in the UK. It's sort of a traditional passtime to get wasted on lager, hurl in the gutter, smash up a bus shelter then nick s shopping trolley and fill it with traffic cones on the way home.

      Those people do have a problem and yet the majority of them are somewhat functional members of society and do actually have jobs (and lose them!) and don't enter into a spiral.

      Basically making up stuff which is at odds with observable facts does not bolster your point.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    6. Re:Bad Idea, End of Story by sdack · · Score: 1

      Again, I was not arguing. This is my experience. It is what I see. There is nothing to debate.

      I can also see that you have a problem. You argue just like many alcoholics. They not care for any of the warnings either and only want it their way even when it destroys them. No words will change them and only they can change themselves.

      I am not saying that you are an alcoholic. This is for you to find out. Most alcoholics, who admit to having a problem, do not seek a debate. They try to find help.

    7. Re:Bad Idea, End of Story by Mr.CRC · · Score: 1

      You think wanting to execute drug dealers and criminalizing drug use, which means police shooting people, beating people up, dragging them off to prison where they face a high likelihood of being assaulted and raped, and having their family finances liquidated for legal fees, is not being an angry and violent person, huh?

      This is why statism is such an insidious poison to civilization. It makes people able to delude themselves into believing they are well intentioned when they argue for applying state power (which is violent coercion) to accomplish societal ends that they deem proper. Someone is going to be dragged away in the night. Someone is going to be beaten to death in prison. Some child is going to loose an imperfect but still sincerely loving and willing to die for that child parent because they have a behavior that displeases others.

      Criminalization must be reserved only for those acts that by their very nature deprive others of life, liberty, and/or property. Period!

    8. Re:Bad Idea, End of Story by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      Again, I was not arguing. This is my experience. It is what I see. There is nothing to debate.

      You are either attempting to deceive me or yourself. You are not merely observing, you are also forming opinions based on your observations, then making judgements on based on those opinions.

      Your opinions are most certainly up for debate, as are your judgements.

      I can also see that you have a problem. You argue just like many alcoholics.

      By that logic you argue like an alcoholic because you too insist you're not addicted. And don't pretend you don't drink, because alcoholics hide their drinking too. So pretending you don't drink makes you even more like an alcoholic.

      I am not saying that you are an alcoholic.

      Yeah you really are.

      The thing is if you define everyone who drinks alcohol as an alcoholic (and you clearly are despite your protestations to the contrary), then "alcoholic" becomes a redundant, meaningless word simply synonymous with "drinker". It leaves no room for those who are addicted. The sort with liver failure, or the inability to have one drink without getting smashed.

      Someone who has a couple of drinks on the weekend is not an alcoholic no matter how much you personally hate the idea of people being able to drink responsibly.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    9. Re:Bad Idea, End of Story by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      So I guess we should ban alcohol and most painkillers while we're at it?

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  40. Re:Fine, but... by anagama · · Score: 1

    Not even extreme sports. Football, skiing, golf, jogging -- they all have dangers and people have suffered from accidents or repetitive stress injuries. Of course, sitting at home safe in your Lazyboy has its own health risks. Or driving -- that is probably one of the most dangerous things we do.

    All of these people saying "I shouldn't have to pay for ...." fundamentally fail to understand that insurance about spreading risk, not concentrating it. Besides, there are risks in everything one does, and even risks in things one chooses not not to do -- attempting to fully regulate that through insurance coverage would mean everyone would be excluded for one reason or another, and only the extremely wealthy would be able to be fully free. Alternatively, by partially regulating activities -- choosing which risks to accept and which to exclude -- that is just a way for the powerful to exert control over those who have less power. Finally, there are financial costs to exclusion -- lawsuits and such. Any time litigation ensues between insurers (*) about who should pay, that is a pure unmitigated waste of resources. Better to just accept that through insurance, you might contribute a dime to a cause you don't like, but in all likelihood, someone else is going to contribute a dime to you for a reason he/she doesn't like. In the end, over hundreds of millions of people, it's a wash, and cheaper to just accept it than bitch and litigate and regulate.

    (*) This could be Ins. Co. v. Individual Person (consider the individual a potential self-insurer)

    --
    What changed under Obama? Nothing Good
  41. Just No by sdack · · Score: 0

    I do not believe in recreational drugs. There is no need for them and I rather want to see less drugs in our society than more. It is never the drugs who break the law, but it is people and they will continue breaking laws, because it did not stop them before. If, theoretically speaking, drug dealing would get punished with the death sentence, would we get rid of drugs and drug dealers pretty fast. If you do not like my opinion then talk to the dad and his son in the following picture. They might agree with the World Health Organization:

    http://www.pinterest.com/pin/2...

    1. Re:Just No by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      I do not believe in recreational drugs.

      Well, that's denialism at its finest. I can assure you they do very much exist and it's not something you need take on faith.

      There is no need for them

      There's no "need" for anything except water and nutrition pills.

      Yet I like fine food and drink. That includes alcohol which is very much a drug. I also like the feeling after a glass of whisky. Sure there's no need, but like I said, there's no need for any pleasurable thing.

      Also, most people aren't trying to have as many kids as possible, so there's no need for them to have sex either.

      If, theoretically speaking, drug dealing would get punished with the death sentence, would we get rid of drugs and drug dealers pretty fast.

      Why bother with theory when you can look at the practice. Some countries do this, yet they still execute people for drugs offences. Clearly therefore your reasoning does not hold up.

      If you do not like my opinion then talk to the dad and his son in the following picture. They might agree with the World Health Organization:

      So? I'm sure I could find people who agree with you who are otherwise utter lunatics. Again, obvious appeals to emotion do not bolster your point. Quite the contrary: it makes it appear that you have no rational arguments to make.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    2. Re:Just No by sdack · · Score: 1

      It is not meant to be an argument. It is an opinion I have. And seeing how you are trying to argue with an opinion, unable to tell the difference between argument and opinion, do I doubt you have a use for arguments. You will be happy when you only get someone's attention, or drugs. At best would you only be looking to get my approval, but it would also be too late for it, because I am sure you are already using drugs.

    3. Re:Just No by Mr.CRC · · Score: 1

      So we should execute and imprison people because of what you would "rather want to see?"

      And what if a significant proportion of society decides they don't want to see what you like to do?

    4. Re:Just No by serviscope_minor · · Score: 1

      It is not meant to be an argument. It is an opinion I have. And seeing how you are trying to argue with an opinion, unable to tell the difference between argument and opinion, do I doubt you have a use for arguments.

      Ah, so in your world, opinions are magical things which stand on their own and no one should try to challenge?

      Or perhaps you do not reach your opinions through any form of reasoning, so therefore there is no reasoning to argue against? So, how do youreach your opinions.

      Or perhaps you merely wish to make pronouncements on the internet without anyone calling you out on your bullshit? If so, slashdot is the wrong place for you.

      And your post did contain a number of arguments, some of which fell into the category of a logical fallacy. So while you can pretend that (a) you didn't make any arguments and (b) opinions are not to be challenged, it won't do any good.

      You will be happy when you only get someone's attention, or drugs. At best would you only be looking to get my approval,

      I'm curious why you post on the internet? Either you enjoy trolling (in which case, cool troll, bro!) or you believe that people will flock to your vapid pronouncements and heap you with praise? Or maybe you hope to convice others of the errors of their ways (in which case you're doing a mighty poor job). Or, perhaps you just enjoy patronising people:

      but it would also be too late for it, because I am sure you are already using drugs.

      Of course I do. I drink coffee in the week. Partly I like the taste, but I also find the caffeine useful. I like a tipple or two on the weekends as well, for a variety of reasons. I don't get your point.

      --
      SJW n. One who posts facts.
    5. Re:Just No by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Well, you needn't believe in them. Faith has nothing to do with it. It ain't homeopathy or religion, that stuff really works...

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  42. Re:Fine, but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Deny somebody coverage based on bad genetics which most of us have. In the future in I can see the insurance industries arguing that the person's parents shouldn't have procreated knowing that heart disease ran in the family.

  43. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  44. Drug laws aren't about health, or drugs. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They're about control, typically of the underclass and poor.

    To this end they are amazingly effective tools.

    Just say no.

  45. Re:Can we have some Facts please? by ganjadude · · Score: 1

    150x the THC is not the harmless stuff the hippies from the 60's smoked.

    all this means is instead of smoking a full 1 gram joint, you can get just as high off 1 or 2 hits. Therefore you are inhaling less smoke. Therefore it IS safer than the pot of the 60s

    next?

    --
    have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
  46. Read the leaked intel files by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If you read through the leaked intelligence files, it becomes apparent that the DEA may be the most important intelligence agency the empire has. The drug war provides justification for peacetime US intervention in the internal affairs of other countries in a unique and ongoing way. Politics and the drug trade are intimately linked in much of the third-world.

    All this talk about the prison industry being the main driver of this mess or the government trying to stop drug abuse, but failing, are a bit naive I think.

  47. Effects on dependents by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    where the points are valid, they necessarily become part of effective protection. pregnant women should not be served at a heroin bar (or other bar, really; BTW, is it legal to refuse to serve alcohol based solely on the obvious pregnancy of the patron?)

  48. Re:Fine, but... by ganjadude · · Score: 1

    this is the EXACT attitude on why I am against government forced health care. As they can make arguments like that, whats next coffee?? red steak? carbs???

    --
    have you seen my sig? there are many others like it but none that are the same
  49. Funny they used to be legal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Coccaine and heroin use to be legal.
    Why where they banned. Was there some down side the people of the time found.
    There appears to be no historical record. It is ashame.

    1. Re:Funny they used to be legal by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Well, patents ran out and pharma corps couldn't come up with anything that worked better...

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  50. Re:Can we have some Facts please? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    > The bottom line is that outlawing drugs reduces their use,

    Your bottom line is false. Look at this chart of US drug addiction rate versus US federal drug control spending from 1970-2010. Despite a massive increase in drug enforcement, the addiction rate is essentially unchanged.

  51. Re:Can we have some Facts please? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Despite a massive increase in drug enforcement, the addiction rate is essentially unchanged.

    Despite massive increase in enforcement, murder rate has dropped only slightly. Maybe it's time we decriminalized murders.

  52. Unintended consequences: Gun Control by Old-Claimjumper · · Score: 1

    Let's take this thread, pull on it, and see how the sweater unravels...

    While a few nut cases shooting up schools grab headlines, the majority of gun crime is committed related to drugs.

    If you have the turf around school A and I have the turf around school B and we have a conflict on who sells on the streets separating our areas, then my only recourse is to grab the AK47s, jump in the pimp-mobile and go shoot up your street hoping to take out you, my rival. Of course, since our only education in firearm use is watching Die Hard movies, it is not surprising that we miss our rival drug lord and kill two dogs, the toddler next door, and three potted begonias on the neighbour's porch.

    If drugs were decriminalized then we could lawyer up and take each other to court like civilised businessmen.

    Gun violence would decline and the related gap in the political discourse related to guns would be, at least, tightened in scope.

    Mush of our current gun violence and thus the

  53. Especially heroin by gelfling · · Score: 1

    which is the cash industry for most of the UN member states

  54. But mah profitz!! by FuzzNugget · · Score: 1

    The private prison industry, over-staffed militarized police departments and politicians/regulators/bureaucrats on the take would heartily disagree.

    1. Re:But mah profitz!! by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      Considering that prisons pretty much are already the biggest places for drug deals, they should easily be able to switch into that new market. All they have to do is hire their inmates, they already know how to move, store and produce the stuff.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  55. Vigilante Law by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Decriminalize the public hunting of dealers and addicts too please.

    1. Re:Vigilante Law by jeIIomizer · · Score: 1

      Decriminalize the public hunting of authoritarian politicians and their minions.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
  56. Re:Can we have some Facts please? by strikethree · · Score: 1

    The bottom line is that outlawing drugs reduces their use

    Does it? On the surface, it seems that what you say is true. Do you have any data to back that up with?

    Personal anecdotes:
    When I was in school, all the cool kids smoked marijuana despite its illegality. Numerous people were induced to use it despite not showing the desire to use it. Marijuana was most definitely illegal at the time. Legality had no effect on usage that I saw.

    When I have visited Amsterdam, there were coffee houses and such that sold marijuana openly. The businesses did not seem overly busy and at most, i saw one or two small groups of people chatting away inside. Definitely not of apocalyptic proportions. Once or twice while wandering around downtown looking at the amazing architecture, I smelled some marijuana smoke but despite my efforts, I never saw who was smoking it. Legality had no effect on usage that I saw.

    But do it factually rather than the misinfotainment spouted by both sides. Take pot for instance... the genetic and economic damage is huge.

    Ok, let's talk facts. Provide links to reputable studies demonstrating genetic damage over and above genetic damage from background radiation, drinking water, or eating bananas. I did a quick search and the top article was this:

    http://cosmosmagazine.com/news...

    Honestly, it sounds rather hokey. They submitted cells directly to smoke condensates and they did not specify the type and amount of genetic damage. It seems to me that if they had subjected cells directly to any kind of condensed chemical that cell damage of some type is sure to occur. This is not normally how cells are exposed.

    Tobacco was also measured this way and found to cause genetic damage. Again, seems rather suspicious to me. No studies not performed in this manner seem to indicate genetic damage.

    150x the THC is not the harmless stuff the hippies from the 60's smoked.

    I recognize this talking point. It is laughable because hashish has been available for thousands of years (condensed marijuana). Marijuana has been cultivated for thousands of years as a recreational chemical. It does not seem reasonable that all of the strains from the 60s were so weak when it is clear that farmers have known how to create selective strains for thousands of years, e.g. corn and wheat.

    The political Right makes it a boogy man

    Indeed.

    but the political Left pushes "medical marijuana" which is a bigger lie than "Iraq WMD".

    Hm. If it is a lie, then why does the federal government grant prescriptions for marijuana use? Sure, at the state level, the requirements are much (MUCH!) less strict, but even at its strictest, the federal government knows there are actual medicinal uses for marijuana.

    Both drive from their marketing basis rather than act on fact.

    It seems like you need to do some more investigation. Yes, there is a LOT of political spin from both sides. The idea is that YOU research the facts and come to a conclusion yourself. It appears as if you have not actually researched the subject deeply and are making an opinion based on "things you have heard".

    Really, try researching it with an open mind. It will not attack you and hurt you.

    Please note that I am not arguing for or against, I am merely responding to what you have written.

    Kind regards

    --
    "Someone needs to talk to the tree of liberty about its ghoulish drinking problem." by ohnocitizen
  57. Plead the 24th for a free ID by tepples · · Score: 0

    States have to give out non-driver ID without charge. Requiring ID to vote while charging for non-driver ID is an unconstitutional poll tax.

    1. Re:Plead the 24th for a free ID by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      $45 for a 5 year state ID renewal. Use to be $25 I think. I think they outsourced it.

      http://www.dol.wa.gov/driverslicense/fees.html

      We vote by mail here in Washington state. So, ID isn't an issue. Stamps aren't an issue if you drop it off at a box. Ink or pencils can be an issue.

    2. Re:Plead the 24th for a free ID by tepples · · Score: 1

      You appear to be right that states that haven't yet adopted voter photo ID don't fall under the 24th in this way.

    3. Re:Plead the 24th for a free ID by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The individual mandate with the Affordable Care Act can impose fines, or as I see it, a poll tax, for not getting health coverage.

      If, let's say, someone refuses to pay those fines, they can go to jail eventually, right? Not sure if true.

      But, let's say they do go to jail. Then, they lose the right to vote, right?

    4. Re:Plead the 24th for a free ID by tepples · · Score: 1

      Imprisonment for failure to pay income tax requires having a taxable income in the first place. Someone legitimately unable to pay ACA individual shared responsibility tax almost certainly qualifies for either Medicaid or, in states that choose not to expand Medicaid, a hardship exemption. Thus one can vote without paying ACA individual shared responsibility tax by having taxable income below the federal poverty threshold. In voter photo ID states, on the other hand, one cannot vote without ID.

    5. Re:Plead the 24th for a free ID by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Poor or not, someone could opt to not get health care thus being taxed. If someone does have a taxable income and still chose not to get Medicaid, what then?

  58. Decriminalization by Mr.CRC · · Score: 1

    Notice how it's always "decriminalization" rather than legalization. The problem with this is that by keeping the production and distribution illegal, it retains the black market which is where much of the crime occurs. Also, this continues to justify the police apparatus that attempts to "interdict." Finally, the addicts are still going to be getting black market drugs of unknown and frequently unsafe composition. Thus, the harm is not fully minimized. The solution is legalization. Even with legalization, every effort will be made to fully corporatize it, by "regulating" it to high heaven. Pun intended! However, decriminalization recommended by an important entity such as WHO is a step in a better direction than what we have now.

  59. It is like... by Antony+T+Curtis · · Score: 2

    The WHO recommendation is like a drug cartel/warlord's worst nightmare come true.

    --
    No sig. Move along - nothing to see here.
    1. Re:It is like... by gnupun · · Score: 1

      More like a nightmare for the common man, but a dream come true for drug lords -- their market size has increased 1000fold to compensate for the lowered profits.

    2. Re:It is like... by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      They'd have to produce 1000 times more stuff for the same profit. You consider that a blessing?

      Are you high?

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    3. Re:It is like... by gnupun · · Score: 1

      They'd have to produce 1000 times more stuff for the same profit.

      No, you're way too high. The price will at best drop to a 1/3rd or 1/5th of the current rate which means profits rise at least 200 x current profit. Expect a lot of college dropouts and flunkouts as students high on weed can't pass exams.

    4. Re:It is like... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I wouldn't say that. They stand to make a killing (financially) from it. No more dodgy back-alley shit. Now their business would be legit.

    5. Re:It is like... by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      That's something that nobody ever managed to answer me: What makes you think that a lot of people will start doing a drug just because it's legal. Why would someone go "Gee, it's Tuesday and colder than outside, I'm gonna try Crack"?

      Would you?

      Then why do you think others would?

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    6. Re:It is like... by gnupun · · Score: 1

      LOL about Tuesday. There are more cigarette smokers than marijuana smokers because cigarettes are legal. The cost of cigarettes is low because it's legal and the market is relatively large. Plus there's no risk of legal troubles for smoking cigarettes.

      Now that drugs are going to share the same characteristics as cigarettes, it stands to reason that people who enjoy being intoxicated (i.e. former cigarette smokers/alcohol consumers) are likely to experiment with drugs since the price will be low and the access easy.

    7. Re:It is like... by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      With MJ? Yeah. Sure. MDMA? Umm... maybe. Crack? No effin' way!

      People who want to enjoy drugs are not necessarily insane...

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  60. Re:completely different kind of addiction? by airdrummer · · Score: 1

    actually, they're finding game addiction (computer & gambling) are quite similar to substance addiction
      http://www.webmd.com/mental-he...

    and china & korea, i believe, have started to crack down (no pun intended;-) on online & gaming addiction
      http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01...

  61. Might as well... by erp_consultant · · Score: 1

    The government has got their filthy hands on every other vice...booze, gambling, cigarettes. If you ask me, alcohol is a much bigger problem than all the other vices combined. And yet you can roll up to a 7-11 a buy a 6 pack any day of the week. As long as Uncle Sam gets his (significant) piece of the action.

    Just take a look at what is happening with the pot dispensaries in California. Due to the huge amount of tax, the price (and quality, so I hear) is better on the street than what they are selling in the shops. Now granted, the stuff they sell in the shops is supposedly medicine and not for getting high but the point stands. You can get better, cheaper stuff on the streets than what the government is blessing. I have no doubt the same would hold true if cocaine were legalized. Well, at least it would keep people from going to jail for posessing it.

    1. Re:Might as well... by neminem · · Score: 1

      I have a friend (no, really, it is actually a friend, it isn't me, I'm not just saying "I have this friend") who has a *semi*-legitimate reason to have been approved to do business with said pot dispensaries. (Though I also learned at that point that you really don't need one - she went in thinking she was going to have to prove her case, and the doctor basically just rubber-stamped her request immediately, so that was interesting.)

      Anyway, not that she's necessarily an expert in weed quality, but my understanding is the prices are fairly comparable, and the quality seems fine. Honestly, even given the choice (which she wouldn't have anyway - as totally law-abiding citizens minus the occasional bittorrent, neither of us would even have any idea how to *find* a corner dealer of illicit substances), I'd *much* rather deal with a legitimate business than a sketchy dude on the street, even if it meant paying a bit more. You can yelp review businesses - not so much a sketchy dude on the street.

      It's not coincidence that one of the largest single groups of people trying to make sure the weed legalization proposition didn't pass in 2010 were freaking weed dealers - of *course* they wouldn't want the competition.

  62. That's step one to medical freedom by buybuydandavis · · Score: 1

    Step one is decriminalizing getting stoned without approval from the state.

    Step two would be decriminalize taking medicine without approval from the state.

  63. smoking in apartment buildings by kervin · · Score: 1

    Smoking in apartment buildings often affects the health of others in that building. This is why NYC regulates smoking in multi-tenant buildings.

    Maybe Americans realize that there are few places you can smoke and not affect the health of others.

  64. Psychological != Physical addiction by kervin · · Score: 1

    Hard drugs get you strongly and quickly Physically Addicted. Do not confuse that with a mild Psychological addiction. Many slashdot comments are getting this wrong. But not all addictions are the same

    Many legal drugs will get you addicted. But that's why we control those substances as well. A large part of being on the federal schedule is that the illicit drug has no real medical use ( or so they say ). So it's not about which is most addictive, but rather what's addictive while arguably also having no medical use.

    1. Re:Psychological != Physical addiction by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      That's one of the things I never really understood: Why does "medical use" matter? There's a lot of stuff we consume or do that is dangerous, purely for recreational purposes. Some of it even with addictive properties. Oddly, what matters seems to be whether it's tasty. If it's tasty, it doesn't matter whether it's addictive or has any "good" effect besides giving you a buzz or high. If it's not, it's probably somewhere in Schedule I.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    2. Re:Psychological != Physical addiction by Applehu+Akbar · · Score: 1

      Physical addiction is punishable by physical withdrawal symptoms plus increased susceptibility to HIV. No government punishment can really add anything to that set of dissuaders, and incarceration just makes all of these effects worse. So the War on Drugs is not only an ineffective punishment for hard drug addicts, but it trashes the Constitutional rights the rest of us used to enjoy. Thanks, morons, for the no-knock raids and the arbitrary cash seizures.

  65. Re:NO AGEISM by Opportunist · · Score: 1

    Dude, whatever it is you're doing, do less of it.

    Or at least pass some.

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  66. all for it by argStyopa · · Score: 1

    I'd support not just legalization, but free drugs for life...as long as signing up for the program required permanent sterilization.

    Think about it...everyone wins.

    --
    -Styopa
  67. Sad day indeed.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Drugs that are dangerous should be prohibited and illegal.

  68. Greengrocer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If you buy your pot from the grocery store, you don't have to associate with people trying to give you free samples of more addictive, more profitable drugs.

  69. There is no magic bullet by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    you're only proving the point; Prohibition (big-P) was a constitutional amendment targeting alcohol, prohibition (little-p) describes any sort of preventing people from doing things that they might otherwise do. When the prohibition of alcohol ended, the mob capitalized on the prohibition of narcotics. see the pattern?

  70. Never happen.. by doccus · · Score: 1

    Never happen, so don't wait for it. Governments don't ever restore human rights that they have been habitually trampling on, except behind the barrel of a gun.

  71. Re:Can we have some Facts please? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Finally, people that are in prison for no good reason are unproductive and cost money as well."

    Except in legislations where it is allowed to profit from the work done by imprisoned people... There the prison owner reaps the benefits of the harsh laws.

  72. Re:Can we have some Facts please? by gweihir · · Score: 1

    Well, yes. The prison operator gets a small profit in exchange for huge damage to society and individuals. The very definition of fundamentally evil.

    --
    Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
  73. Meth concerns by nesdave · · Score: 1

    Additional controls would need to be put in place to prevent the distribution of street drugs. Silly me, of course they would! The pharma mafia would demand it. They don't want to lose that part of market share.

  74. '...no substantial benefit.' by sydbarrett74 · · Score: 1

    The War on Drugs does provide a substantial benefit -- for the police forces who can buy shiny new toys by auctioning off stuff seized via asset forfeiture; the owners of private prisons; drug kingpins who earn their filthy lucre from peddling illicit wares; the members of public-sector prison-guard unions; and the laboratories who get to charge outrageous amounts of money to administer and process drug tests.

    The general public, of course, does not share in this bounty and furthermore suffers from higher rates of violent crime spawned by prohibition.

    --
    'He who has to break a thing to find out what it is, has left the path of wisdom.' -- Gandalf to Saruman
  75. Re:Can we have some Facts please? by Kingofearth · · Score: 1

    Murder hurts innocent people, drug use itself doesn't.

  76. What is the cost of all the half-dead junkies? by MoarSauce123 · · Score: 1

    I can follow the argument that decriminalization of drugs will free up funds that can be better spend elsewhere, but I think that the elsewhere will be taking care of the increasing number of drug addicts and their ailments. Yes, I know, I am making assumptions here that if using drugs is no longer penalized the consumption will go up as well as keeping penalties will keep the number of users low. We have an excellent opportunity to put some facts into this by monitoring marijuana use in those states where it became legal beyond medical uses. Do more people try it? Do more people use it? Do we see a spike in things like traffic accidents due to doped drivers? Do we see the decrease in intelligence given that continued marijuana use destroys brain cells similar to heavy drinking? Do we get the same amount of lung cancer cases as from tobacco? My prediction is that the cost will stay the same, but shift to other areas such as public health care expenses, public dependent care expenses, downturn in economy, etc. At the same time, is there any benefit from sending military after the drug lords and fight them in gun battles with no real outcome? The solution is in finding out what makes people not even want to try drugs, especially those that get one hooked instantly. Eradicating demand will take care of the rest very quickly.

  77. Drugs are bad, War is far damn worse! by OldHawk777 · · Score: 1

    War on drugs causes and sustains:
            Criminal underground economics
                    Government corruption financing / bribes.
                    Bank crimes of money laundering and tax evasion
                    Law enforcement personnel deaths and disabilities
                    Low income communities’ exploitation / enslavement
                    More ....
            Public health / welfare catastrophes
                    Spreads diseases HIV, hepatitis, most STDs ...
                    Gang, paramilitary, gun ... violence
                    Long-term hospitalizations / care
                    More ....
            Political / Cultural inequality, excuses, bigotry
                    Excuses for underfunding schools
                    Depressed neighborhood economics
                    Bad teachers ... few police ... no jobs ....
            Criminal exploitation of citizens ....
            Death of generations ....

    --
    Unaccountable leaders are masters, and unrepresented people are slaves. How do US and EU fare?
  78. Re:Finally! the rest of the story by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Dr. William Stewart Halsted (1852-1922) was the father of modern surgery, and founder of Johns Hopkins Medical school. He developed the patient chart, surgical gloves, aseptic surgery techniques that cut the infection rate in half so he was among the most sought after surgeons in the country. He researched the use of cocaine as Nerve Block. He also did personal research on cocaine for euphoria, and became badly addicted. Its the same story, numerous rounds of rehab failed and he always relapsed to the cocaine. He disappeared for a while and returned with his cocaine habit finally cured.

    Under careful scrutiny, he was allowed practice surgery, and his work was good enough for him to soon be elevated to Chief of Surgery. but after the coke he never was the same. In an era of Hack sturgeons when speed was everything, he became almost ploddingly slow but his results were good. He researched tissue healing, developing surgical techniques that kept blood loss and tissue damage to a minimum, and paved the way for modern surgery of today.

    But how did he beat his "hunger for Cocaine"? He took morphine, becoming a lifelong morphine addict. He injected morphine on a daily basis for the last 40 years of his life, suffered no noticeable damage and was very productive Opiates mixed with alcohol or tranquilizers cause overdoses. Too many Vicodin (Opiates and Tylenol) will damage the liver due to the Tylenol not the opiate. People certainly overdose on opiates, but its obviously possible to live a long, productive life with an opiate addiction.

      The first casualty of any war is truth.

  79. "...or other tax" by tepples · · Score: 1

    The individual shared responsibility tax introduced in the Affordable Care Act doesn't change one thing about tax law in the slightest: if you have a taxable income, you have to pay tax. But you do raise a more general question about whether taking away a tax evader's right to vote through imprisonment is constitutional under the "or other tax" provision of the 24th Amendment.