Slashdot Mirror
Russian Government Edits Wikipedia On Flight MH17
An anonymous reader writes A political battle has broken out on Wikipedia over an entry relating to the crash of Malaysian Airlines flight MH17, with the Russian government reportedly removing sections which accuse it of providing 'terrorists' with missiles that were used to down the civilian airliner. A Twitter bot which monitors edits made to the online encyclopedia from Russian government IP addresses spotted that changes are being made to a page relating to the crash. All-Russia State Television and Radio Broadcasting Company (VGTRK) changed a Russian language version of a page listing civil aviation accidents to say that "The plane was shot down by Ukrainian soldiers." That edit replaced text – written just an hour earlier – which said MH17 had been shot down "by terrorists of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People's Republic with Buk system missiles, which the terrorists received from the Russian Federation."
They tried to edit slashdot to make this the first post
One biased side is fighting edits from an even more biased side.
The first casualty of war is the truth. In this case both sides are trying to pummel truth's dead body into a hamburger.
You would think a government approved change, from any government, would at least use a proxy.
I don't think Russian state media should be editing Wikipedia entries especially not on matters of current affairs.
But still, interpreted literally the new statement is far more factually correct and unbiased than what it replaced. Whoever shot down the plane, they were "soldiers" or fighters of some variety and almost certainly can be described as Ukrainian, given that everyone seems to agree that the fighters are actually eastern Ukrainians and at most Russia is supplying weapons to them.
The original text, on the other hand, more or less exactly sums up western/west Ukrainian line despite the obvious abuse of the word terrorist to mean "rebel fighter" and the [citation needed] assertion about who did it and the source of the weapons.
I don't think Wikipedia should be used as a political tool fullstop. posting accusations that Russia was involved is for news sites not for supposedly unbiased material. If it proves to be a fact then it can be put there. The original text is more like a fox news story than an encyclopaedia reference.
The crash scene is a crime scene and all the bodies and bits should be left in place. Russia lost all credibility the second they started moving bits around.
Are those 'objectively' known? If not, then what am I doing here?
Btw. does anyone here remember the USS Vincennes?
I don't remember the US government editing the Wiki page on Iran Air Flight 655. Rather, the US government admitted to the mistake rather quickly, without attempting to blame Iran.
This MH17 thing is different. Russia has a huge role in this, no matter who shot down the plane. At the very least, the Russians armed an ethnic population in a foreign nation to create a war. And it is this war that got that plane shot down. I think, objectively, everyone can agree on this... It does cast suspicion on any Russian attempt to shape the Wiki truth.
Putin is a murderous goon. He and his cronies will get what's coming to them.
Fuck systemd. Fuck Redhat. Fuck Soylent, too. Wait, scratch the last one.
I don't trust any of the parties involved. They're all war mongering liars.
Certainly the Russian and their armed separatists are war mongers. It's not clear if the Ukrainian government really wants a war or just wants sovereignty.
Russia is clearly the aggressor here, and no matter who fired the missile, Russian has a huge responsibility in the matter. Provda shouldn't be editing the Wiki.
The US government never admitted it's mistake, or apologised. It reached an ex gratia settlement with no admission of liability or fault years later.
And it, and 13 other supporters in the security council, entirely blamed Iran at the time, saying that if Iran had only respected the security council resolution to stop fighting, then it wouldn't have put that flight in risk.
Check your history. It might surprise you.
Actually the US "STILL" hasn't admitted fault in that incident. They blamed it on the hostilities in Iran and then proceeded to cover up the whole incident as best they could, like the location of the ship, breach of orders, no court marshal despite blatant crew failings etc.
> Btw. does anyone here remember the USS Vincennes?
Actually yes, I do. There were various discussions about at what point the crew knew they'd just shot down an airliner, or at what point they should have known that they were targeting one. There've even been various conspiracy theories that they knew it was an airliner all along and shot it down intentionally to kill someone or another who was onboard. But the US has always admitted that it was the one who shot down that airliner.
At no point has the US government tried to re-write history and disavow the blame by claiming that it not the US who pulled the trigger; but some bunch of locals who somehow managed to capture (and figure out how to operate) the Vincennes.
Imagine all the people...
This is my shocked face:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...
That's great, but it doesn't have dukey-squat to do with GP's point.
A ha ha ha ha ha !!!
And the United State / England have never armed foreign groups to mount wars by proxy? Then you know nothing of South America, the Middle East or Africa.
Get. Off. Your. High. Horse.
I shouldn't be so harsh on you ... you probably derive all your "news" from Western media (Fox / BBC / Reuters / ...)
The US government never admitted it's mistake, or apologised.
Certainly it admitted a mistake. The US government admitted shooting the plane down rather immediately, called it a mistake, and has since used it as a training case in the military for what not to do. You either weren't alive back then, or you have a twisted view of history...
Apologized is a different story. The idea of an apology became a bit of a political football during an election year, with Dukakis stating that the US should apologize and then Bush beating the crap out of Dukakis by saying we should never apologize for American troops. Bush won, and the apology never came. But Bush could be a bit of a douche. He did run the CIA.
a strategy of kremlin propagandists.
distribute lies about events ("oh, ukrainians shot down mh 17 ! they even shot down their own planes a few days before that. we claimed credit for that just for fun !"), then go "ooooh, but you know, i don't trust either side, they all are lying"
so far russia has been caught lying many times. all evidence points at russian special forces (and regular army, too) being responsible both for invasion in eastern ukraine, and for downing mh17 specifically.
please, stop whitewashing this terrible government, it can lead to even more tragic losses.
Rich
Actually I don't watch fox news at all, but so many idiots post information published from it that it is hard to avoid it. News sites stopped doing proper investigative journalism years ago, the majority of articles even on the relatively good places are poorly researched and/or republished crap. Even on the current MH17 it amazes me some of the fake/phony stuff that has been put on news here in Australia as fact, they don't even bother to do basic research anymore.
Donald Rumsfeld Wikipedia article edited anonymously by US House of Representatives
Clearly the NSA wants us to know that Rumsfeld is an alien reptile. Maybe the NSA listens to us is because they are out of gum?
Those of us in the West can't understand why Russia doesn't just admit that it was a mistake.
Meanwhile those in the East understand that Russia will never admit it screwed up.
But still, interpreted literally the new statement is far more factually correct and unbiased than what it replaced. Whoever shot down the plane, they were "soldiers" or fighters of some variety and almost certainly can be described as Ukrainian, given that everyone seems to agree that the fighters are actually eastern Ukrainians and at most Russia is supplying weapons to them.
Not exactly. There is a distinct difference between a soldier and a combatant. A soldier is trained and is a member of a standing military. The separatists can at best be described as "irregulars", or insurgents or rebels if you want to go with slightly more charged terminology. And who exactly is this "everyone" who are agreeing that they are all Eastern Ukranians? I have yet to see any reputable source make that claim. And Russia is not just supplying small arms to these groups. They are giving them tanks, armored personnel carriers, artillery, and anti-air systems (both MANPADS and tracked systems). You don't just pick these systesms up and start using them. They are recieving training, either in Russia or locally from trainers that Russia has moved into Ukraine. And given the fact that the missiles were launched from inside territory controlled by the rebelsis a very important detail. Why would the Ukrainians have anti-air equipment deployed in an area they do not control, against an enemy with no air power? All evidence points to the missiles being fired by the separatists, which means Russia had a hand in at the very least training them on how to use the equipment if not providing that equipment as well as continuing to use their influence to keep the conflict going.
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
Wasn't there once a guy from Texas who removed the section on crimes against humanity from George Bush's wikipedia page?
http://stephan.sugarmotor.org
First, as others have posted the US has not admitted to the mistake. In fact, they created "scenario fulfillment" to explain away what happened (google it, the first result is Vincennes). No matter how many "friendly fire" incidents the US has been in they have never admitted fault.
;)
Next, does this also work?
" At the very least, the Americans armed an ethnic population in a foreign nation to create a war. "
Both the Russians and Americans have a rich history of funding various nations war efforts, sometimes it even comes back to bite later
Lastly, one would assume MH17 is "different" because this time Russia has a huge role in this, vs Vincennes which the US did NOT have a huge role?
Twitter bots that monitor and call attention to things, or future AI tools we develop that provide similar functionality for monitoring what appears to be the cyber behavior of certain groups or certain people, have a downside, too. Everyone knows it isn't very hard for somebody with substantial financial resources (or a sysadmin who works at a particular ISP and has substantial political beliefs or alliances) to spoof the IP addresses that are thought to be associated with certain groups/nations. This evolving condition of intrinsic uncertainty around digital media and Internet communications needs new technical and social solutions. See: http://slashdot.org/submission...
Whoever shot down the plane, they were "soldiers" or fighters of some variety and almost certainly can be described as Ukrainian, given that everyone seems to agree that the fighters are actually eastern Ukrainians and at most Russia is supplying weapons to them.
is that "everybody" 'russia today' ?
try googletranslating http://lb.ua/news/2014/07/20/2... - ukrainian army detains 23 terrorists. somehow all 23 turn out to be citizens of the russian federation.
there's also an interview with a former warrior from moscow how tells how 80% of them were from russia, with locals not exceeding 20%.
let's bisect the other thing you said - "at most Russia is supplying weapons to them".
"at most". as if they were given bows and arrows. they get armoured vehicles. they get... tanks. they get bloody sam systems that can reach targets up to 25km.
Rich
... given that everyone seems to agree that the fighters are actually eastern Ukrainians and at most Russia is supplying weapons to them.
No, not even that is agreed upon. That are many claims that the "commanders" of the fighters are Russian, not Ukrainian.
Trilateral Commission Wikipedia article edited anonymously by US House of Representatives
God forbid somebody who happens to work for or be a Congressperson spread disinfomation by alphabetizing categories...
City of London Corporation Wikipedia article edited anonymously by US House of Representatives
...or adding serial commas!
You might want to limit yourself to examples where somebody's changing the tone of an article to favor (or mock) some particular view, like the rest of the links.
And, of course, a particular Congressperson or staffer for that Congressperson isn't necessarily acting on behalf of the US Government, just as somebody working at or for the VGTRK isn't necessarily acting on behalf of the Russian government. (Perhaps it'd be more likely in the latter case, but if it were somebody posting from the Duma in that case, or somebody from the Voice of America in the former case, it'd be a closer match.)
Poor shills are on their 3rd straight day without sleep, and over-time pay is reduced to only 6 extra potatoes due to sanctions. Remember to take a rest, comrades. Next week when the satellite and black box data come out you will be needed even more.
Yes, I am sure most everyone here does know about Iran Air 655. The Wikipedia page on MH 17 links to a list of commercial passenger planes shot down, that include the USS Vincennes incident. However, we are discussing Wikipedia edits made for the Malaysian Air flight made by a national government. Has the US Government been involved in making edits to that page to shift blame from itself and disseminate false information, or are you just engaging in whataboutism?
LOL newbies (or agent pretending to be newbies).
The reptile bullshit is part of the disinfo project to mix into conspiracy theories to make them look stupid, like the tin foil hat, and that is also EXACTLY why the congress is adding it to the Wikipedia article.
Just shut up, eat your burgers and go back to your football, silly Americans.
Actually the US "STILL" hasn't admitted fault in that incident. They blamed it on the hostilities in Iran and then proceeded to cover up the whole incident as best they could, like the location of the ship, breach of orders, no court marshal despite blatant crew failings etc.
There is a big difference between admitting fault and admitting a fact. The US never denied shooting down the plane.
Claiming that an incident where nobody is even raising their hand as to who shot it down is the same as the Iran Air incident makes you sound like the kind of person that wants the vilify the US wherever they can.
A ha ha ha ha ha !!!
And the United State / England have never armed foreign groups to mount wars by proxy? Then you know nothing of South America, the Middle East or Africa.
Get. Off. Your. High. Horse.
I shouldn't be so harsh on you ... you probably derive all your "news" from Western media (Fox / BBC / Reuters / ...)
So has your non-Western media ever told you of the western democracies arming a bunch of yahoos with SAMs that could shoot down commercial airliners?
At least when we arm are proxy forces, we're not dumb enough to give them weapons that make us look stupid. You Russians are idiots for that one.
You are watching too much "Western Media", my AC Ruskie friend.
But still, interpreted literally the new statement is far more factually correct and unbiased than what it replaced. Whoever shot down the plane, they were "soldiers" or fighters of some variety and almost certainly can be described as Ukrainian, given that everyone seems to agree that the fighters are actually eastern Ukrainians and at most Russia is supplying weapons to them.
Not exactly. There is a distinct difference between a soldier and a combatant. A soldier is trained and is a member of a standing military. The separatists can at best be described as "irregulars", or insurgents or rebels if you want to go with slightly more charged terminology. And who exactly is this "everyone" who are agreeing that they are all Eastern Ukranians? I have yet to see any reputable source make that claim. And Russia is not just supplying small arms to these groups. They are giving them tanks, armored personnel carriers, artillery, and anti-air systems (both MANPADS and tracked systems). You don't just pick these systesms up and start using them. They are recieving training, either in Russia or locally from trainers that Russia has moved into Ukraine. And given the fact that the missiles were launched from inside territory controlled by the rebelsis a very important detail. Why would the Ukrainians have anti-air equipment deployed in an area they do not control, against an enemy with no air power? All evidence points to the missiles being fired by the separatists, which means Russia had a hand in at the very least training them on how to use the equipment if not providing that equipment as well as continuing to use their influence to keep the conflict going.
Even common sense kind of makes it obvious it was the separatists. This whole mess reeks of something that only an undisciplined mob of rebels would do. Why would the Ukraininans blindly shoot down an airliner with a tactical SAM when they have a multi layered air defense system and modern jet fighters at their disposal? Surely their military radars are capable of reading civilian transponder signals and they could have sent up a pair of MiG-29s to fly rings around MH17 if they'd had reason to suspect it of being something other than it's ID data, transponders and flight plan said it was. As for the conspiracy theory that the Ukrainians drove that Buk launcher into separatist territory to 'frame' the separatists, they'd have had to drive a tacked vehicle with four bigass missles sitting on top of it deep into separatist controlled territory unnoticed. The stories coming out of Russia trying to blame this on the Ukrainians are just plain ridiculous.
Yes a lot of funding has gone into "Containment control".
Air Force research: How to use social media to control people like drones (July 17 2014)
http://arstechnica.com/informa...
"...researchers could be used to sway the opinion of social networks toward a desired set of behaviors—perhaps in concert with some of the social media “effects” cyber-weaponry developed by the NSA and its British counterpart, GCHQ"
A push by sock puppets in posting AC stories eg the "IP addresses".
Someone has new war PR to sell.
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
By that logic, "Saudi Arabian soldiers" were responsible for flying airliners into the World Trade Center.
Support Right To Repair Legislation.
Oh yea, I get it... They want us to think that those sunglasses allow us to see the alien reptilian faces so that when we put them on and see human faces we think the alien reptiles are real people. I have found that tinfoil makes the sunglasses work. You should try it.
And they are brain dead easy to run
I have read too many quotes similar to the above, but there is just a _tiny_ problem - most (if not all) of the people who said that the missile system is easy (or like the above has put it "brain dead easy ") to operate themselves never had any hands-on experience on any of the missile system whatsoever !
Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
I thought Obama was Commander-in-Chief of the United States of America, not the world.
The original text is more like a fox news story than an encyclopaedia reference.
It depends if there is a citation.
That page is merely reporting a press release from the Ukrainian government in Kiev. Are you suggesting we should treat everything they say as factually true?
probably not everything, but so far they have shown themselves as a fairly (mostly ? completely ?) honest source of information.
on the other hand, russia has demonstrated again and again to be the opposite.
Whatever is happening in Ukraine it is not a full-blown invasion by Russia in the "classical" style that Iraq or Afghanistan were. That would be far more obvious.
and continuing on trusting russia, how about a very relevant example... the invasion of crimea just a few months ago ?
at first putin publicly (repeatedly) claimed no russian troops involved. then "well, they might have helped a bit". after the invasion, "but of course they were our men !"
and europe didn't even blink. so now we got a plane down, and we are just getting "more concerned". yes, that will surely help just as it did before.
what russia does in eastern ukraine is either war or terrorism - although it is probably both.
Rich
Is it not humiliating to invoke Fox News in order to defend or deflect the actions coming from the Russian government? I mean, way to set the low bar and just barely jump over it.
your thin skin doesn't make me a troll
First, as others have posted the US has not admitted to the mistake.
Not "others". Just AC Ruskie.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
> Btw. does anyone here remember the USS Vincennes?
Actually yes, I do. There were various discussions about at what point the crew knew they'd just shot down an airliner, or at what point they should have known that they were targeting one. There've even been various conspiracy theories that they knew it was an airliner all along and shot it down intentionally to kill someone or another who was onboard. But the US has always admitted that it was the one who shot down that airliner.
At no point has the US government tried to re-write history and disavow the blame by claiming that it not the US who pulled the trigger; but some bunch of locals who somehow managed to capture (and figure out how to operate) the Vincennes.
They misidentified Flight 655 as an Iranian F-14 operating out of Bandar Abbas, a known F-14 base but also a civilian airport. That may seem strange to us in Europe or the USA where miltary and civilian operations are conducted from separate facilities but in many parts of the world it is not by any means uncommon for a couple of jet fighters packing bombs and missiles to be launching out of the military half of an airport and an airliner taking off of from the civilian half a minute or two later. The military systems I am familiar with today are data fused with air traffic control systems so civilian aircraft are automatically flagged for the military controllers and they have access to flight plans and other such data but I'm not sure to what extent the military had access to civilian flight control data back in 1988. I'm guessing very little especially on a destroyer off the coast of Iran. The Vincennes tired to contact Flight 655 on civilian and military emergency frequencies but not air traffic control frequencies which is strange since that was their best bet to get the attentinon of a civilian aircraft. Don't SAM crews get trained for this kind of an eventuality? You'd think they'd get suckered into shooting down an airliner during a few of their simulator sessions in military school just to make double and triple sure the identification procedure for civilian aircraft sticks in their minds like the aftermath of a good hard kick in the nuts.
Only to idiots, are orders laws.
-- Henning von Tresckow
This is an incredibly disappointing comment to see modded Insightful. It's a non sequitor, it insults the parent, and most importantly, it adds nothing to the conversation.
I guess you can no longer use the traditional response to accusations of Russian misdeeds, since the US has stopped "lynching negroes"?
Last post!
Putin is a murderer. He is sending Russian Special Forces into Eastern Ukraine, supplying them with weapons, occasionally training them, and when shit happens does the "Russian Bullshit Story"(tm). "I don't know anything about it, its not me, it happened somewhere else, Russia is on the other side of the planet from Ukraine, while this was all going on my dog was eating my homework, ask Baghdad Bob, he will confirm that I was on a fishing trip in Jamaica during this event, along with all of the Russian military. We were all in a rowboat. Two guys got fish (which we all shared). I, being Putin caught one of them. My fish was 75 pounds. It came pre-cooked. Ask any of the thousands of soldiers who were with me. They all agree." Perhaps Putin expects us to believe the bullshit he is pushing. My real question is: do the Russian people believe his bullshit? And a followup: if they *really* believe his bullshit, is there a toxic lead leak in Russian water? Are they all drunk? Is there some mass mental defect somewhere?
In Soviet Russia, 'First Post' gets you!
I went there. I'm not proud.
The San are pretty much where they were when humanity evolved.
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
Ukrainian line despite the obvious abuse of the word terrorist to mean "rebel fighter" and
This horse left the barn years ago. It isn't just being misused here it is being misused universally everywhere in every conflict and increasingly by many an overzealous prosecutor.
Language is hardly a static affair forever anchored to ancient texts.
Russians clearly "like" the separatists in Ukraine, and there are clearly Russians with military training/experience pouring into the region to help with the fight- but if the Russian military was directly involved the war would have ended by now instead of Ukraine pushing them back.
Almost like invoking MSNBC or any of the other shoddy and partisan news publishers.
Nobody in their right mind trusts RT. It's a lot like Fox News in that it has an explicit agenda that it doesn't deny, and for RT that is to present pro-Russian views to non-Russian audiences.
here's a usa statement (they got some satellites and other systems that help with gathering information) :
http://ukraine.usembassy.gov/statements/asmt-07192014.html
the careful wording in the world of diplomacy means "oh stop fucking around, it's 100% clear who did it".
also, the terrorists are sent and controlled by russia. if that indeed was not them... you can be sure as hell they would allow any and all inspections, completely secure the area to prevent any tampering, get all blackboxes and deliver them to international experts. because it would be juuuust perfect for them.
they did the opposite.
Rich
They are both war mongering liars, you are correct. But in this case, there's video of the Anti-aircraft battery being driven back into Russia missing 1 missile. That's pretty cut and dry.
The commander of the eastern Ukrainian militia is a Moscow native and "former" GRU (Russian military intelligence) officer with no ties to Ukraine prior to the war.
No-one disputes that. Not on either side, Ukraine or Russian. The only dispute is over that "former". The Ukrainian government says he's still an active duty officer taking direct orders. They even know the name of his immediate GRU commanding officer in Moscow. Russia claimed he "retired" a month before he entered Ukraine.
The "Prime Minister" of the break away territory is a Moscow native. He ran a right wing news service for several years, with the protection and support of the Russian government. He was widely believed to be FSB. He had no ties to Ukraine before the war. He was sent into Crimea as a political "consultant" on behalf of Moscow during crisis there, then "retired" and moved on to eastern Ukraine.
No-on disputes any of that. The only dispute is whether he's FSB and whether he's still working for the FSB.
It seems that it's only really the western media which persists in treating it like a spontaneous uprising by local (ethnic-Russian) Ukrainians.
Science is all about firing a drunk pig out of a cannon just to see what happens.
I thought Obama was Commander-in-Chief of the United States of America, not the world.
For the past several decades, the US political system has considered these to be equivalent. Google "only remaining superpower" to read the evidence. You'll also find lots of uses of the phrase by non-Americans implying that they accept this as fact. Some of them complain, of course, but they often do so in ways that effectively acknowledge the fact of US rule. The US government is now immune from any so-called laws and is free to use its power as it likes anywhere in the world.
Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
I don't think Russian state media should be editing Wikipedia entries especially not on matters of current affairs.
But still, interpreted literally the new statement is far more factually correct and unbiased than what it replaced. Whoever shot down the plane, they were "soldiers" or fighters of some variety and almost certainly can be described as Ukrainian, given that everyone seems to agree that the fighters are actually eastern Ukrainians and at most Russia is supplying weapons to them.
The original text, on the other hand, more or less exactly sums up western/west Ukrainian line despite the obvious abuse of the word terrorist to mean "rebel fighter" and the [citation needed] assertion about who did it and the source of the weapons.
Many, if not most, of the separatist military leaders are not Ukrainian and are instead retired Russian military. So no, "Russian soldiers" would be more accurate.
Subsequent reports showed that he was well out of his depth and exceeding his authority when an ill-conceived "show the flag" mission hit contact with real sea mines (reconditioned WW1 mines made by Tsarist Russia!) and other problems such as friendly fire from the Iraqis they were sent in to support. Under such pressure he was unable to operate and took a variety of shortcuts that resulted in shooting down an airliner sticking to it's schedule. Admitting the mistake in any way was not seen as acceptable so he was just quietly promoted to an appointment on land.
The Rebels meet the legal definition of soldiers. And many of them are ex Russian army so they likely had people with the training to use the anti-aircraft launcher without needing training from Russia. It's also possible that supporters in Russia (family and friends) could have sent the tanks and APC's, but not without the Russian government knowing about it. In political circles allowing others to move heavy weapons through your country to a war zone counts as military support.
They misused the internet so now they can't play with it for a week.
posting accusations that Russia was involved is for news sites not for supposedly unbiased material.
There is something utterly fucked up with that statement. Don't confuse me, its nothing you did.
The fucked up part is that 'news sites' are so fracking biased!
What I wonder is why the wikipedia article isn't locked already.
Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
Where do you even buy tinfoil in this day and age? I'd like to get some. It's easily solderable and thus much more usable for grounded shielding, etc.
Unfortunately these days all that is available easily is aluminum foil. I suppose tinfoil is available from scientific suppliers, probably on the same catalog page as the gold and lead foil. I bet it's pretty expensive though.
Btw. does anyone here remember the USS Vincennes?
Funny thing, I once bought a used Science Fiction pulp novel from a used book store (up in State College, PA), sometime in the late 90's. Only later did I realize that "USS Vincennes" was stamped on one of the edges, indicating it must have come from some on-board library. It's a small world.
Anyway, to continue with your question -- yes, I remember it pretty well. And there were plenty of talking heads in the media trying to shift some of the blame onto Iran (that it must have been a martyrdom operation where Iran sacrificed it's own citizens to make us look bad, or that Iran shouldn't have operated civilian and military aircraft out of the same airport, or that the pilot should have known better than to fly on a path directly crossing that of a U.S. warship -- all bunk excuses).
But the U.S. government never denied that we were the ones who shot it down, they admitted it quickly and bluntly.
From documentaries/etc that I've seen there were a few issues:
1. An airline timetable that was used to check published routes was improperly adjusted for timezone, thus missing the planned takeoff.
2. The operator interrogating the aircraft transponder kept the aircraft selected for a long time - which caused it to keep a different aircraft's response after they had separated on the screen. If they had re-interrogated it they'd probably have picked up the civilian transponder code.
3. I believe there had been threats or an actual attack on another ship recently, putting pressure on the captain to not let hostiles get too close.
The only reason that more events like this happen is that the Iranians (or anyone else) haven't actually fired on a US ship. So, US ships accept risky situations that would be likely to get them sunk in an actual conflict. The fact that an aircraft is using a civilian transponder code and is on an airline timetable doesn't in any way ensure that it isn't a hostile aircraft. If somebody actually launched an attack by masquerading as a civilian aircraft it would make air travel a LOT less safe overnight. Either the US would have to stop putting naval ships in constrained waters like the Persian Gulf, or it would have to announce fairly large no-fly zones (extending over national airspace), or it would have to accept losing the occasional ship when somebody decides to sink one (unless Aegis really is that good).
It's one thing to keep an open mind, it's another to let the geese run around in there.
Science is all about firing a drunk pig out of a cannon just to see what happens.
You can use Al, but Sn is best. Al doesn't protect well against many of the mind control waves, though it can work OK for HAARP. Sn can be found here: http://www.advent-rm.com/catal... You are right - pricey. But better than the alternative.
The real problem is that they are working on the neutrino control ray under south pole icecap. Once they figure that out, we are screwed. Neutrinos go right through Sn.
This will put a crimp in Putin's attempt to make a "New Russia" with a more sizable sphere of influence. Putin is a very smart guy; definitely a sociopath; and, ex-KGB (which means that he *remains* KGB, at heart.
What saddens me is that after the Berlin Wall fell, Western powers didn't do everything they could to help democratize Russia, or at leastinvest in a way that started to create a serious economic infrastructure that more Russians could participate in. Instead, KGB and high level Soviet cronies bought out Russia's infrastructure for a song; the mafia got more involved; the West disengaged. Sad, really sad. Now, Russia and Russians are in for another generation or more of killers like Putin and his cronies.
All sides in this are acting like pigs, the Russians, Ukrainians and the Ukrainian separatists. The Russians are and the separatists are throwing around unsubstantiated accusations. Even the Ukrainians are not releasing the volumes of radar (including military radar) and air traffic control data that surely exist. The worst ones are of course the ones who shot at the plane. Since they are hiding and spewing misinformation, it's obvious they are not even a tiny bit sorry for accidentally shooting down a civilian plane. Their behavior makes it look like the plane was deliberately targeted, truly a work of evil.
one) Accident or crime? I'd be willing to give the affair the benefit of the doubt. The fallout for this benefits neither pro-Russian Ukrainian forces nor Mother Russia herself, and was easily predictable. The Ukrainians do not seem likely to have masterminded this without detection, but I'll keep the shiny hat nearby.
two)Ukrainian investigators on Western soil? No. But like we're doing, countries such as the former Soviet Union would still be bitching about it.
three) Is the death toll from spectacular plane crashes overrated? Certainly. Everyone who's flown has felt the uneasy helplessness of being on a plane... if something happens, there is nothing you can do to help. While a war in Gaza or Afganistan takes a substantial toll over an extended period, few modern citizens can relate to war death.
four) Did the USA and Great Britain thrum their fingers together like Mr Burns and say aloud, "Excellent"? Oh yeah.
Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know.
Ernest Hemingway
Where are the headlines about Ukrainians having already done the same thing? Where is the balance?
The Russians are sending arms and support into Ukraine and have created a war there. If there appears to be bias against the Russians, then the Russians have brought it on themselves.
If the Russians hadn't been in Eastern Ukraine, where they don't belong, then nobody would be complaining about Russians. Instead, Putin and his buddies have been acting like jerks, which kind of makes the Russians look like suspect #1.
He is ex FSB not GRU. regardless he seems more a mercenary for hire rather than a Russian agent. if you look at his history he has been involved in wars throughout the world where he would have no reason to be apart from money or simple love of war.
The layers of disinformation and conspiracy run deep with you.
while(1) attack(People.Sandy);
Dude my father, uncles, grandfather, great grandfather, you name it, were all ex-russian army (meaning soviet, it was the same army). All of them were born, raised, and spent their entire lives in Ukraine. Meaning they are as Ukrainian as you can get. Almost every male past certain age living in Ukraine is ex-russian-army, because there was conscription. At 18 you served, unless you can wiggle out of it somehow. So this whole thing about ex-russian-army thing is stupid. Most of you can't get the idea that it was the same damn country through you skull. They used same equipment (including the fabled Buk air missile that might have shot down the plane, which by the way you don't know at this point).
Unless it was done as a false flag action to blame on the separatists and rally the world to Ukraine's side.
Learn to love Alaska
Was my "Yorktown captured by French Terrorists" comment something that you have too poor a grasp on history for you to be able to get the point? How about this then: we know where the missile was made but everything else is still being worked out, we especially have no idea how much control is being exerted over various groups in the region either.
You may be right but it's far too early for either of us to know.
I don't remember the US government editing the Wiki page on Iran Air Flight 655
It would have been strange if you did, seeing that Wikipedia did not yet exist at the time.
Don't fornicate. Seriously, just don't do it.
a strategy of kremlin propagandists.
distribute lies about events ("oh, ukrainians shot down mh 17 ! they even shot down their own planes a few days before that. we claimed credit for that just for fun !"), then go "ooooh, but you know, i don't trust either side, they all are lying"
so far russia has been caught lying many times. all evidence points at russian special forces (and regular army, too) being responsible both for invasion in eastern ukraine, and for downing mh17 specifically.
No it doesn't.
The evidence points to Russian special forces and regular army being responsible for the annexation of Crimea.
In the war in Eastern Ukraine the evidence points to Russian paramilitary organizations operating with the backing of the Russian government and some level of direction. But there's no evidence of actual Russian soldiers in East Ukraine. To be honest they'd be dumb to send any. There's more than enough Cossacks and Chechen militias they can direct over unofficially. No point in sending over official soldiers who could be killed, identified, and drag Putin into an actual war he doesn't want.
Putin still bears full culpability for every death that's occurred, but he's keeping official Russian soldiers out of it.
I stole this Sig
Fair enough.
If you are pointing out that Wiki editing by the Russians really has nothing to do with the US handling of Iran Air 655, then I agree.
Don't SAM crews get trained for this kind of an eventuality? You'd think they'd get suckered into shooting down an airliner during a few of their simulator sessions in military school just to make double and triple sure the identification procedure for civilian aircraft sticks in their minds like the aftermath of a good hard kick in the nuts.
And these days they do. It's one of those "lessons learned" things.
I, along with a bunch of other guys, once got sucked into lighting up an entire household of civilians in training. It really, really sucked. But the reason those scenarios existed is because some poor bastards lit up civilian households for real, and we got to learn from their mistakes.
The US Government never really admitted, from wikipedia:
The U.S. government issued notes of regret for the loss of human lives and in 1996 paid reparations to settle a suit brought in the International Court of Justice regarding the incident, but the United States never released an apology or acknowledgment of wrongdoing.[8]
We don't believe in radical loony monotheistic religions from the middle east -- we're Christians.
I would like see more technical stories:
* What does the operator of a Buk-M1 actual see on his console? Is it plausible to confuse a Boeing 777-2000 with a AN-26 ?
* If you are thrown out of a plane at 10KM altitude, would you be able to survive with a parachute? How many seconds would you suffer without a parachute or will you die from asphyxia or hypothermia before crashing down?
* How many planes fly over North Korea and Afghanistan? Do those countries have Buk-M1 or similar missile systems?
why don't you just call me a "Terrorist"?
You're not a terrorist, you're an apologist.
USA! USA! USA!
USA is not relevant. The only point germane to this discussion is that either Russian soldiers directly, or Russian trained and armed insurgents in East Ukraine downed a civilian passenger plane. The evidence shows that beyond reasonable doubt and all the past crimes if the USA will not wash out that blot. The only appropriate utterance from the Russian side is an apology.
If you would like the rest of the world to impose a Sth Africa like boycott on the Russian federation for the next half century you are going about it the right way (ie, by attempting to justify the unjustifiable). We will not to be convinced by your arguments, you are merely digging a deeper hole for yourselves.
I don't think black box data will be much use, they were shipped out to Russia within hours of the crash, Alexander Borodai, a Russian national, normally a resident of Moscow and political leader of the "rebels" claims he has them and is waiting for the ICAO to turn up so he can hand them over, except the ICAO can't turn up because his soldiers are blocking them from doing so. The Russians/Rebels are very clearly stalling the handover (they've also been caught removing bits of aircraft and a number of the dead who showed evidence of damage/wounds that would be caused by Buk missile fragmentation FWIW so the whole crash site has become a forensic nightmare in that regard).
So the chain of custody of flight recorders now makes them utterly useless for determining anything worthwhile. To be useful they'd have had to have been left in the exact spot they fell until international investigators showed up to properly document their locations and to set up a proper chain of custody.
Speculation is that Russia would easily enough be able to remove some flight data to make it look like the last location pings from the aircraft came further back to the west than where the aircraft was actually shot down so that they can try and pin it on the Ukrainian military.
I'm intrigued after MH370 whether MH17 was relaying it's satellite locations though given that the company that handles that said they'd offer it for free. I expect an interesting blame game and arguments about tampering to come up if the temporary Russian held black box data mysteriously does end earlier than the satellite data held by Inmarsat in the UK. I'm sure Putin and his cronies will be accusing Inmarsat of making up data when the reverse is true - that if Putin and his soldiers in Ukraine had nothing to hide they wouldn't be fiddling with evidence, removing bodies, running off with the black boxes, and blockading international investigators.
Pretty sure the replies to this are failing to notice that the AC is trying to make a joke. It's not a funny or a clever joke by any means - and it adds nothing to the conversation - but I don't think he's being serious.
Who cares if the russians supplied the missles to down the aircraft.. It's about who actually shot down the plane.. It's not like the US hasn't supplied "terrorists" (oh I mean rebels) with weaponry that killed A LOT of innocent people, it's not like other countries have supplied weapons to groups who used them..
And it all looks like a big tragic mistake as the plane was 'just' mistaken for a transportcarrier..
Don't SAM crews get trained for this kind of an eventuality? You'd think they'd get suckered into shooting down an airliner during a few of their simulator sessions in military school just to make double and triple sure the identification procedure for civilian aircraft sticks in their minds like the aftermath of a good hard kick in the nuts.
And these days they do. It's one of those "lessons learned" things.
I, along with a bunch of other guys, once got sucked into lighting up an entire household of civilians in training. It really, really sucked. But the reason those scenarios existed is because some poor bastards lit up civilian households for real, and we got to learn from their mistakes.
Yes it is sad how people always have to die before lessons are learned. I always figured the Flight 007 was a similar case, after seeing documentaries about both incidents I see them in a similar light. In both the case of F007 and the Vincennes case it sounded like there were pretty obvious common sense procedure they could have done to avoid the situation. In the case of F007 that would have included flying in front of the guy, nobody fails to notice a Su-15 hovering in front of their windshield, and in both cases calling the airliner on air traffic frequencies might have been a good idea. Having heard an interview with that Soviet pilot it sounded like nobody ever bothered to tell him or his colleagues what procedure to follow when they have get the attention of an airliner pilot, in the arctic darkness, with a bunch of nervous brass-hats yelling at them over a radio link any more than any body bothered to drill the SAM operators on the Vincennes how to exhaust all possible options on contacting an airliner. I don't doubt such procedures were implemented on the double and triple afterwards by the Soviets (and a whole string of other air forces to be sure) and they included intercepting pilots doing a thorough eyes on inspection and providing a description of the target aircraft to GCOs, always intercepting in teams and both fitting all interceptors with tracer ammo on at least one of their guns at all times and making the interceptor fly in front of the target to make sure they are seen. It sure still sucks that nobody thought of training scenarios like that right off the bat.
Only to idiots, are orders laws.
-- Henning von Tresckow
indeed, in ukraine they are not operating as open as in crimea... but several of the leaders are "ex-russian-forces".
how convenient, isn't it ? both gru and fsb have been identified as "previous" workplaces of many.
there are also reports of some regular duty soldiers mysteriously dying - those are a bit harder to verify with dead bodies being transported back to russia with trucks.
Rich
1) the IFF was in mode 3 so it was quaking as a civilian
2) the radar system identified as a civilian but the operator chose to override the radar expert system report.
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
visit randi.org
there's a difference between full scale, open invasion - and the slow creeping of special forces, a sam system here or there etc.
russia used this tactic in crimea, denying their involvement when everybody said it's them - then admitted it was them all along.
now they are denying their presence in the eastern ukraine...
Rich
Hy ! Be fair with the OP, from all what we know from Putin's bloody politics and underhanded tactic "murderous kleptomaniac thug" and "elected pro-russian government" could very well be identical in the average Russian mind ;)
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
visit randi.org
Yes it is sad how people always have to die before lessons are learned
Not always, but you know how it is with bureaucracies ... nothing gets them motivated quite as well as a good disaster.
I always figured the Flight 007 was a similar case, after seeing documentaries about both incidents I see them in a similar light.
Naw, man. I mean, sure, there are some superficial similarities, but the things which actually caused the incidents are COMPLETELY different.
The Soviet shootdown is a simple case of browbeaten lackeys under a tyrannical regime making what they figured was the best choice to cover their asses. There was no threat to them. The aircraft was nowhere near the people who made the call, and was on it's way out of Soviet airspace. The pilot involved even told them he believed it was a civilian airliner. Yet they decided to shoot it down anyway.
The Vincennes incident was the exact opposite. It involved personnel under serious threat from Iranian forces, in hostile territory, faced with an aircraft they couldn't identify which seemed to be on an attack vector. They were scared for their lives, and under an immense amount of stress. I'm not sure how to explain that to someone who works a 9-5 job in an office. Lots of people talk about "stress" in their day-to-day jobs, and I'm sure there's some truth to their complaints, but unless you're a first responder, an air traffic controller, or a soldier in a combat zone, you really don't know what stress is, or how badly it can skew your normal behaviour. We train our people to recognize it, avoid it, or deal with it ... and we put measures in place to try and minimize it ... but when you're engaged in combat and feel that your life is on the line, even the best preparations can only do so much. It only gets worse when you're the one responsible for a multi-million dollar vessel, and several hundred lives on board it.
The difference may be easier to visualize if you relate it to something you're more familiar with. The Soviet shootdown of 007 was the equivalent of a couple police supervisors sitting at headquarters, ordering a patrolman to shoot an unarmed man running away from a property he trespassed on. The American shootdown of the Iranian flight was the equivalent of a couple SWAT guys under heavy fire panicking and shooting a civilian who was running towards them. Both are horrible incidents which should never have happened. But other than that, they have absolutely nothing in common.
I am from the Netherlands, where most of the casualties are from: can we PLEASE stop our uninformed finger pointing until at least some evidence turns up?
None of us know what happened.
Russia or the separatists in Eastern Ukraine might have done this -- although no-one is sure what they would stand to gain from it. Ukraine's own military might have done it (they've done it before and denied it vehemently until it was proven beyond a shadow of a doubt).
For the moment though, we are doing the victims' families a shameful disservice by pretending to know what happened. Their loved ones are currently being cynically used, by both sides, as pawns in a game they had no part in.
Gosh, thanks. That must be why the other ships call me Meatfucker -- GCU Grey Area (Eccentric)
Strelkov/Girkin's military career would be GRU. His domestic "anti-terror" work would be with the FSB. His current work would be GRU.
Science is all about firing a drunk pig out of a cannon just to see what happens.
Nope to this. I'm very sceptical of any news report. But then I'm neither from the US/GB/AU/NZ or RUS area ...
Now - please chat on. But try to make your propaganda a bit more subtle ... and this applies to both sides !
The sum of intelligence on a planet is constant. Nowadays we have more people. When classic goes away, so do I. Copy
Don't be a tool. The fallout for this is a massive pain in the backside for the Kremlin. Putin may be an utterly evil prick but he's not an idiot that would plan something like this to play directly into the hands of the idiots that want to bring the cold war back.
You're full of shit erik.
And why is that Pino (*)?
Unlike you, I don't go around insulting people for disagreeing with me. In short one-line posts with no further references or links or even hints at an argument. Just conclusions and accusations out of thin air.
I haven't actually said anything remarkable here: just throwing out there that, in my opinion, the current mud slinging back and forth only adds to the hurt of the people who've lost friends and family in this catastrophe. I know, because I live among those people.
And yet that gets modded Troll, and you're cheap shot is somehow deemed Insightful.
Sad.
(*) Not that you should care, but Pino is the dutch name for Big Bird.
Gosh, thanks. That must be why the other ships call me Meatfucker -- GCU Grey Area (Eccentric)
i didn't mean that any of these was on purpose.
mh17 does look like an accidental shot - but fully enabled by the current russian leadership, including supply of the troops, financing and the weapons.
Rich
I'm very afraid reading such crap replies. First, it shows iron media grip firmly holding western citizens by the balls. Second, given amount of hate western media spewing against Russians and China right now, I see the great war coming. It seems that western establishment is hell bent on inciting another world war in order to destroy BRICS. For what ? For keeping petrodollar going ? Indeed we're in situation resembling beginning of the 1st Wold War. Just replace Britain with USofA, France with EU, Germany with Russia and Vladimir Putin with Wilhelm Keiser II, Ukraine with Serbia and MH17 crash with assasination of Archduke Ferdinant. Very frightening.
The UK government has been caught editing wikipedia many times, around 2008/9 when MPs were caught fiddling their expenses a large number of edits on wikipedia occurred to their crimes and disseminate false information. If the UK government does it..
Dunno what China has to do with any of this, but if you fear a war is coming, maybe you should tell Putin to stop? Because he's the one hell-bent on conquering his neighbours, which is what this is about.
Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.
Not at all. Should Putin want to invade Ukraine, he'd conquer it in a week or two. It seems that US (who is behind Kiev) is trying to pull Russia into this conflict just as they did in Afghanistan 35 years ago. Putin is doing his best to avoid intervention, yet I suspect there is quite a bunch of covert support for rebels. Either way, this is banderist west Ukraine who are bad guys here and guess who is supporting them. There is civil war going on and a lot of civilan casaulties - almost exclusively killed by Kiev forces and National Guard (ie. Right Sector thugs armed and officialy designated as "military"). You don't need (should not) to take my word on it - go to youtube and do some research yourself. You can also dig through UN and OSCE reports covering this topic as there are already some available. UN reports contradict almost everything we see and hear in western media.
I'm not insulted, though you are of course right not to care. One-line posts like "you're full of shit" don't exactly make you seem a reasonable commentator, which is why I don't care what you call me.
I'm not saying I'm Mr Reasonable either. But it is rather telling that you go around accusing people of being tools or "useful idiots" when those people aren't even stating any controversial opinion, but merely refuse to be drawn into a propaganda fest before any facts are in.
While, I might add, at the same time making various claims -- which may or may not turn out to be accurate -- but at any rate currently without a shred of evidence either way.
I despise Putin, but only slightly more than I despise the West's handling of this whole sordid affair. And that was even before this latest tragedy.
Gosh, thanks. That must be why the other ships call me Meatfucker -- GCU Grey Area (Eccentric)
Which is what he already did to Crimea, and is now trying to do to East Ukraine. Putin is an evil overlord, not an idiot; he'll gobble up what he can without drawing too much aggro, then wait for the next opportunity.
The problem, of course, is that sooner or later he'll miscalculate the reaction, like Germany did in 1939, and then another world war will start.
Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.
So who profits? The key question remains, of course, cui bono? Only the terminally brain dead believe shooting a passenger jet benefits the federalists in eastern Ukraine, not to mention the Kremlin.
You have made a very basic logic error.
The realization of, or failure to realize, a profit is *not* the key question. The key question is who *expected* a profit when the action was committed, whether they were successful or not is an entirely different matter. Its the expectation that motivates action.
The simple fact is that the Russian backed separatists *believed* they were firing at a Ukrainian military transport. Shooting down such a military transport would benefit the Russian backed separatists. The Russian backed separatists initially took credit for shooting down a Ukrainian military transport, until they discovered they had actually shot down a commercial aircraft not a military transport. The shoot down of a commercial aircraft was not intentional, a commercial aircraft was mistaken for a military aircraft. That said, being unintentional in no way relieves the Russian backed separatists from responsibility, legal or moral. They fired the missile at a mistaken target, it was their negligence and incompetence that killed hundreds of innocents.
I've realised why people keep quoting this. FlightAware provides a low resolution track of the flights - about 100 points* for a flight between Amsterdam and KL. FlightRadar24 provide a track with a 1 minute resolution (~600 points, with large sections missing where there is no ADS-B or MLAT coverage).
* They now seem to have slightly improved resolution, but now highlight where the track is actually known. Check for yourself - the tracks where data is available is in green, then they draw a great circle where the track is unknown.
MH17 2014-07-15
MH17 2014-07-16
MH17 2014-07-17
This is the data I originally compiled from FlightRadar24 - All MH17 flights since 14th May - and as you can see, they have data points provided every minute, as opposed to guessing where the aircraft was.
Basically, you've a choice of using a website that provides low resolution lat/lon pairs (FlightAware), or a website that provides timestamped lat/lon data, along with speed, course, altitude and area (FlightRadar). If you're going to use rubbish data to support a hypothesis, you'll end up with a rubbish hypothesis. In fact, you're doing it wrong if you need to use rubbish data to "prove" your hypothesis.
As for the altitude, it's true that the pilots request FL350, but were refused - this could have been for any given reason - congestion (apparently there have already been reports of near misses over Russia due to congestion due to aircraft avoiding Ukraine airspace - I'm trying to find where I read that), weather (which has been suggested by a pilot's group). However seeing as an SA-11 has an altitude range of 60 - 25,000m, 600m isn't going to make a difference if you're attempting to shoot down a civilian airliner.
Russia or the separatists in Eastern Ukraine might have done this -- although no-one is sure what they would stand to gain from it.
You confuse expecting to gain something with in fact realizing such a gain. Who actually gained anything is not evidence, rather it is who **expected** to gain that may be evidence.
The Russian backed separatists expected to gain from shooting down a Ukrainian military transport. They immediately took credit for shooting down a military transport. When they discovered the aircraft was really a civilian airliner they and the Russians went into full damage control mode and backtracked and pretended there was never any attempt to shoot down a military transport.
That's right, Putin is leading a secret proxy war like the ones that were common on both sides of the iron curtain during the Cold War. It's so sad that we still have to watch such a retarded behavior nowadays, what a bad and disconcerting beginning of the 21st Century. Not to speak of the long-lasting harm Putin's 'soviet union light' aspirations cause to Russia.
I've realised why people keep saying this - they're using FlightAware, which uses low resolution data, unlike FlightRadar24 which uses 1 minute resolution data. So, people have the choice of using low resolution lat/lon pairs, or 1 minute timestamped lat/lon data which also contains course, speed, altitude and ATC zone. Whether people are are using rubbish data to support their hypothesis out of ignorance or malice doesn't matter - it's rubbish data.
If you now look at FlightAware's website - they show the known track in green, and fill in the unknown track with a great circle. In fact their [ADS-B, I think] data appears to stop around the Poland-Ukraine border in all cases:
15th May
16th May
17th May
Compare this to the high resolution data I downloaded from FlightRadar24 - I overlaid all the tracks in Google Earth:
All MH17 flights since 14th May
You can see from the image a myriad of data-points, something that is missing from the FlightAware data.
As for the altitude - FL350 was requested and refused - I can't comment on why, but there are plenty of reasons - congestion, weather, etc. However if you're planning to shoot down a civilian airliner with an SA-11 (which has a altitude range of 60 - 25,000 metres), then a difference of 600 metres isn't going to make a difference.
There are nowadays portable hi-tech rockets capable to fly to very high altitudes with enormous speed and precision. They are obviously very expensive and out of reach of Ukrainian or DNR military.
How do we know that it was a DNR or Ukrainian rocket? It could also be a portable hi-tech rocket smuggled into Ukraine by a 3rd, or 4th, or even 5th party of this conflict.
Gah - double post as when I reloaded the page I couldn't see my comment so had to rewrite the bloody thing.
Let's remember that this plane fell down somewher, and the exact spot seems to be indisputable. I don't expect Russia claiming that the black box recorders stopped working with the plane flying for another 100km.
Russia or the separatists in Eastern Ukraine might have done this
That's a distinction without a difference.
although no-one is sure what they would stand to gain from it.
It looks like they thought it was a Ukraine military plane and were a bit too trigger happy, not realising it was a civilian aircraft until too late.
Ukraine's own military might have done it (they've done it before and denied it vehemently until it was proven beyond a shadow of a doubt).
Here's the thing: if the Ukraine were responsible, then Russia would have a vested interest in a visibly transparent investigation and be in a position to ensure that it happened. If they could convincingly portray the Ukraine as having shot down a civilian aircraft then that would significantly alter the political sympathies in the current conflict. Instead, they have done everything in their power to block it.
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
Before flight MH17 got shot down about 400 passenger flights a day flew on that exact same route. Eurocontrol did not have any reason to close this route untill after the plane got shot down.
When you have this many planes flying on the same route every day its very unlikely to speak of an accident or mistake. Shooting down this plane was deliberate.
This was not an act of terrorism. This was not a crime in the normal sense of the word. This could easy be interpreted as an act of war.
This event has now become part of high politics and everyone is trying to gain benefits from it. All over the back of dead Dutch citizens.
The Dutch are very angry! The way the dead are being treated, de lack of access by independent investigators. The lack of information. The lack of cooperation from all involved parties. And the huge amount of propaganda being spread over our backs.
Right now the Dutch would love nothing more to send military in the area to secure the wreckage and bodies. However this is not going to happen because of all the political ramifications this would imply (can't just go in a foreign country and start bossing around).
The only thing this act may accomplish in the long term is a more unified Europe with a proper European military. As a Dutch cicitzen I cannot wait for the day this might happen.
And by American I presume you mean South American since potatoes were originally from the Andes regions of Peru and Bolivia.
Time is critical. So until there's information otherwise, it's shameful to everyone involved to support anyone who is hindering an independent investigation.
Absolutely agreed, which is why I wasn't supporting anyone.
Gosh, thanks. That must be why the other ships call me Meatfucker -- GCU Grey Area (Eccentric)
Putin's hands were caught in the cookie jar and the russian terrorists are showing their true colors for their total disrespect for the dead.
Wow a Putin apologist...who knew...
LMOL somebody likes to drink bong water.
Do want to shut /. down? Because that is how you shut it down>
This is a discusion site. Discussions have by default speculations.
And welcome to (world) politics where people are pawns in a game they have no part in. (Although sometimes they tell you you do by 'voting'.)
Yes, speculation can easily be confused with facts by some peopel. Also think that if there was no speculation, many times there would also no be any incentive to bring up any proof. Speculate what would have happend in this case:
Everybody is waiting for evidence. Nobody does any staements and speculates who-dun-it.
The result would be that nobody would be willing to look into it.
Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
Potatoes weren't introduced to Europe until well after Columbus had died. But it was part of the subsequent Columbian Exchange that did bring them.
Oh really? Poor choice of words then:
They supplied the stuff but didn't pick the target. Pretending otherwise, besides being stupid, is playing into the hands of those that want to go back to the good old cold war days were they could sell plenty of goofy military hardware that never had to actually work.
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Just when I thought Alexander Borodai couldn't stoop any lower in saying the ICAO can pick up the flight recorders whilst also stopping ICAO represenatives getting to him to pick them up the train carrying about 200 of the bodies now apparently can't get to Western Ukraine because the railway has magically been damaged today.
Worse, Borodai has also now said he will only hand over the bodies of the deceased directly to the relatives. Yes, that's right, you can't have your dead son back for burial unless you personally travel to Borodai's warzone to pick him up.
What an absolute pathetic excuse of a person Russia has sent to run things in Ukraine, classy company Putin must keep. I can't really tell if they think they're somehow making the situation better by so desperately preventing any evidence escaping their grasp or if they're just being malicious at this point. Either way they're certainly not making the situation better for themselves and they're basically screaming their own guilty in refusing to cooperate.
Meanwhile, as an aside, Denis Pushilin another Putin puppet and spokesman for the rebels decided to resign and flee to Moscow over the weekend. I can't tell if he's more or less stupid than Borodai for doing this, on one hand his actions scream that he has something to run from and that the rebels are guilty as hell and he doesn't want to be punished from it, but on the other at least he's not just digging deeper like Borodai and trying to achieve the medal of "Most horrible person on Earth" in the process.
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They use this science to incite wars in Libya, Syria, Palestine, now Ukraine. And if US burns through all Ukrainians, they'll continue ther wars with Poles, Estonians and others. I'm a Pole - that's why I'm freaking out. I want no part in this madness.
You can't be a Pole, if you were you'd already be suspicious what Russia's intentions from the very beginning. The truth is, there is close to zero appetite for war from any of the western nations of any kind, with any kind of involvement. Especially the United States. All everyone wants is Russia to leave Ukraine. If Putin is so *desperate* to avoid conflict in Ukraine then then please explain why he's even there to begin with? Oh, he only wanted Crimea, I forgot. But nothing else, he has promised! Don't worry! Anyway, if you were truly a Pole you'd be taking note of Putin's actions, not his words. Nobody wants a war, not even Russia, not the West, nobody. In fact Russia would much, much prefer to do this quietly via political maneuvering and flexing its military muscle rather than actually starting a conflict. However if everyone did as you suggest and stood aside, it'll be a few years and Putin will do it again with yet another country. Just wait and see.
You're right on WW1, you're right on Iraq, but you're wrong on this one and you're also conveniently ignoring WW2. History doesn't repeat itself but it does rhyme. Stick with the facts, Russia unequivocally annexed Crimea. I'm sorry but taking land from another country is sort of considered a "big deal" if you know what I mean.
they supplied the sam system. they supplied the personnel manning it. they did pick the target... just that they fucked up.
of course, they are pretending thy know nothing about those terrorists they sent and armed there for this exact reason - so that they could say "ooooh, it's some innocent, peaceful rebels"
Rich
They misidentified Flight 655 as an Iranian F-14 operating out of Bandar Abbas, a known F-14 base but also a civilian airport. That may seem strange to us in Europe or the USA where miltary and civilian operations are conducted from separate facilities but in many parts of the world it is not by any means uncommon for a couple of jet fighters packing bombs and missiles to be launching out of the military half of an airport and an airliner taking off of from the civilian half a minute or two later.
Not strange at all in the US. In fact, I had my Airbus rocked by the afterburners of two F-16s taking off of a civilian airstrip in the US just a few months ago. It was an interesting experience being right behind them in the ground pattern. The US uses civilian airfields for National Guard and reserve bases. I used to work right across the street from one such facility. After Sept 11 that facility had F-16s taking off every 60-90 minutes with live munitions.
The US Government never really admitted, from wikipedia:
The U.S. government issued notes of regret for the loss of human lives and in 1996 paid reparations to settle a suit brought in the International Court of Justice regarding the incident, but the United States never released an apology or acknowledgment of wrongdoing.[8]
Bullshit.
From http://www.washingtonpost.com/...
"The U.S. government deeply regrets this incident," Adm. William J. Crowe Jr., chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, told a Pentagon news conference.
This is EXACTLY what happened to when the Russian air force shot down Korea Air flight 007 in 1983. Deny everything, stall international investigation, sanitise the crash scene, and retrieve and hide flight recorders. Except these goons don't know there are two flight recorders on passenger planes and they only found the first. The investigation team already found the second recorder still embedded in the debris.
Human Rights, Article 12: Freedom from Interference with Privacy, Family, Home and Correspondence
Do you have a source for that? all the reports I've seen suggest the rebels have both flight recorders.
When a civil airliner went down near Ustica, the amount of disinformation and cover up was so extensive that western governments cannot claim they have always had higher standards. The moral responsibility of Italian, US, and possibly other EU countries towards the victims with regards to the truth is there no matter which theory you agree more with.
---- MISSING MISCELLANEOUS DATA SEGMENT --- [sigdash] trolololol
What you're quoting isn't an apology or an acknogledgment of wrongdoing.
"The U.S. government deeply regrets this incident,"
To feel regret over something isn't the same as apologizing for it. You can feel sorry (i.e. feel regret) if a relative of your friend dies. That doesn't mean that you were involved in any way in the death of that relative.
No one has found, much interviewed this supposed Carlos. (inb4 "Kiev had him kidnapped and executed" or some other conspiracy theory)
As for the encoding timestamp, that's simple. It was re-encoded for streaming after it was uploaded, as Youtube typically does for most video formats. Primary Youtube servers are located in California, UTC-8. Ukraine is UTC+2, a difference of 10 hours. The encoding timestamp of 19:xx hours on Youtube servers corresponds to early morning in Ukraine the next day.
Are you Kremlin shills even trying? You need to work harder for your rubles.
your thin skin doesn't make me a troll
Being a condescending twat. That is how I *know* your evidence is valid. Thanks for convincing me and proving your claim.
It all makes sense now.
while(1) attack(People.Sandy);
I find it strange that both the Netherlands and Malaysia are both very hesitant about making accusations against Russia. I realize both countries are important trading partners with Russia/China, but this is absurd. Russia doesn't care for you.
Maybe they (and especially Malaysia after the MH370 cockups) are just waiting for evidence?
The Netherlands seems to have no reluctance in criticizing Russia for it's cack-handed handling of the situation on the ground, but going from there to saying "Die Putin, you fiend" needs a little more proof.
It seems that US (who is behind Kiev) is trying to pull Russia into this conflict just as they did in Afghanistan 35 years ago.
Might like to brush up on your history their, comrade.
The US only got involved in Afghanistan after the USSR was fighting on the ground.
That is why we must be careful about information claiming that "Russians are blocking investigation".
Remember that similar claims made people believe that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction. There was no good evidence of the existence of such weapons, but well-orchestrated rumors of "Saddam is blocking the work of investigators" sounded very convincing.
I find it even possible that the investigators (if they are anti-Russian as much as the former were anti-Saddam) make unreasonable requests just to get refusals.
There. Fuck. "There", not "their". Shit.
What you're quoting isn't an apology or an acknogledgment of wrongdoing
Who said anything about an "apology" or "acknowledgment of wrongdoing"? What I was responding to was the assertion from above:
"The US Government never really admitted"
Certainly the government admitted to shooting down the plane. Lower in that article is a quote from Reagan:
President Reagan in a statement said he was "saddened to report" that the Vincennes "in a proper defensive action" had shot down the jetliner. "This is a terrible human tragedy. Our sympathy and condolences go out to the passengers, crew, and their families . . . . We deeply regret any loss of life."
That looks like an admission to me. Reagan raised his hand and said we did it. Certainly one could argue weather it was a proper defensive action.
Even lower in the article, summarizes the US governments official position on the issue:
Navy leaders said Iranian commercial aircraft had flown over U.S. warships in a threatening manner at least eight times before the Stark was hit by two French Exocet missiles fired by an Iraqi jet. Ever since the Stark attack, skippers in the gulf have been less tolerant of such apparent threats.
The US was a combatant in a simmering conflict with Iran. This is the same conflict its been in from 1979 until today. The US claims that Iran was using commercial aircraft in this conflict. Since there is little or no diplomatic communications between the countries - Iran's choice, btw - it is really hard for either nations to come to an understanding of what the commercial aircraft were doing, if anything prior to the Exocet strike. Its also really hard for the US to offer an apology to Iran for anything since Iran has yet to apologize for the embassy hostages. An apology from the US to Iran for anything just isn't going to happen until Iran apologizes for killing some of its diplomats and holding the rest hostage for months.
Nobody can say the US didn't admit to shooting down the airbus, and the US government did offer up an explanation. People may not like the explanation, or agree with it, but at least the US stood up for its actions.
Malaysia and the Netherlands are not in a conflict with Ukraine, Russia, or the separatists. Both countries have good diplomatic ties with Ukraine and Russia. There is dialog. The fact that nobody can't even raise their hand to say they did, or say they know who did is reprehensible. Time for the parties to man up, offer up their explanations and take their knocks.
For people to come here and say this behavior - shooting down an airplane and then claiming someone else did it - is the norm because the US didn't apologize to Iran for shooting down a plane is, as someone else pointed out, whataboutism. And bad whataboutism at that.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Admission, in a legal sense, usually implies not only admitting the facts, but also that there was an error or wrongdoing by the party doing the admitting.
And this has not happened.
Its also really hard for the US to offer an apology to Iran
Oh, um, yeah. Maybe they could offer an apology to the relatives of the people that got killed? Most, if not all of them, never took any hostages in any embassy. Some of them weren't even Iranians.
Nobody can say the US didn't admit to shooting down the airbus, and the US government did offer up an explanation.
And that isn't an "admission" in a legal sense - since they give themselves an acquittal in the same paragraph.
People may not like the explanation, or agree with it, but at least the US stood up for its actions.
If you call giving yourself a complete acquittal "standing up to your actions", yes.
A Finn who saw the scars your attempt to conquer our country left on innocent people. And now you're doing the exact same thing again - you prop up a puppet regime and have it request help. Only your puppet got ousted, so now you're going with plan B: russian troops posing as rebels.
You're wasting your time. Everyone who has the bad luck to live next to Russia knows the truth about you.
And Otto Wille Kuusinen was a Finn and Vidkun Quisling was a Norwegian. Good luck on your chosen career.
Then stop working for a madman.
Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.
later called "Bundesnachrichtendienst"
Ooooh, scary German name.
"Federal Information Office".
Oh, a little less scary.
The Russians aren't doing anything our current Administration hasn't done over and over and over again in the last 5+ years in communicating with the US population. Wait! When they reveal that the hard drives in the recovered Black boxes have all crashed and subsequently been destroyed, will their mimicry be complete.
I think a big issue is that the longer this goes on, the less reliable "evidence" there will be. From all the reports, the scene of the crash is chaotic. Bodies aren't being tended to (or refrigerated) properly, pieces of the plane have been removed. At first it was "we're sending the black box to Russia for investigation" and then "we haven't found the black box yet", etc etc.
It's going to be pretty hard to sort things out if the "evidence" is being mishandled this badly, whether intentionally or otherwise.
This might be modded down as offtopic, given that I don't want to start pointing fingers at anyone (at least until the investigation has finished), but I was just pondering the following:
Given that about 1 in every 3.4 million flights crash (http://www.planecrashinfo.com/cause.htm), does anyone think it's rather unlucky that Malaysian Airlines have had 2 flights crash in the space of 4 months, and that both of those had Kuala Lumpur as either the start or the end point? Is this simply bad luck, or is there something special about Kuala Lumpur?
Ukraine claims that any hardware that was left behind was non-functional. It was supposedly later claimed by the rebels that they "fixed" one of the BUKs. Maybe the fixing didn't enable the safety lock (or it wasn't working as intended)?
God forbid somebody who happens to work for or be a Congressperson spread disinfomation by alphabetizing categories...
So, judging by the reaction to the article (the whole thread from this submission),
No, not the whole thread. See below.
each and every single employee of Russian state media responds directly to Putin (even those who, say, use their wifi networks),
In the posting to which you responded, I said "just as somebody working at or for the VGTRK isn't necessarily acting on behalf of the Russian government.", which says that employees of Russian state media are not necessarily acting on behalf of the Russian government". The person who made the edit in question might well have been acting on his or her own; I'm not going to assume that they were acting part of an officially-organized propaganda campaign, or even a propaganda campaign at all, any more than I'm going to assume, at this point, that the Russians had anything to do with the decision to shoot down the plane.
but some edit directly from a political/administrative institution only "alphabetizes categories".
In the posting to which you responded, I said that one particular edit, namely the one referred to here was only "alphabetizing categories", and that one other edit, namely the one referred to here, merely added a serial comma.
If your goal was to demonstrate that people from IP addresses assigned to the US congress edit Wikipedia pages, those edits might be relevant; if your goal was to show edits, from IP addresses assigned to the US congress, that show a pro-US bias, those edits are completely irrelevant - this one might be more relevant.
What we know doesn't seem to amount to much yet, sadly, if we disregard the he said / she said.
However, US Secretary of State John Kerry has said there is overwhelming evidence of Russian complicity in the incident
Until evidence is presented, this is no more credible than the overwhelming evidence of WMD in Iraq and of Assad being behind the sarin attacks.
Russia denies the claims.
Likewise, not credible. They would say this anyway.
Ukrainian authorities earlier released a recording they claimed was a conversation between pro-Russian militants admitting to shooting down the plane.
And this is also quite meaningless, as of now, because of the accuser is basically at war with the accused.
Incidentally I wonder if these militants are less pro-Russian than they are anti-Kiev (post coup).
Meanwhile, though, there are at least some relatively positive developments:
Pro-Russian separatists say they have found the plane's "black box" flight recorders and have agreed to hand them over to Malaysian investigators who are in Ukraine.
Dutch forensic scientists have also arrived to start work on identifying bodies.
Gosh, thanks. That must be why the other ships call me Meatfucker -- GCU Grey Area (Eccentric)
News from two centuries ago - "Yorktown captured by French Terrorists".
Looks stupid doesn't it? That's what you get when you oversimplify these things and assume that the backers are equivalent to the perpetrators. The backers in this case may be just as unpleasant as Napolean.
Assuming you mean Napoleon, what the hell does he have to do with Yorktown?
Are you talking about the siege of Yorktown in 1781?
And Napoleon who took power in 1799?
If you think I'm conservative and pro-gun, then you've clearly never read any of my other posts. In fact, if your entire reply is not just an ad hominem, but one attacking views that are diametrically opposed to the ones that I've publicly stated on numerous occasions, I can only assume that you are completely lacking any meaningful responses.
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
That's a lot of what I wanted to say. If you don't have a citation, it doesn't go on wikipedia. If you can prove all this shit, then post away.
In Canada, if you post information like this you are guilty of "Seditious Libel" and are sentenced to 14 years in prison. I can't imagine what will happen in freedom-loving Russia if that's what Canada will do.
Sadly, a Libertarian cannot force his views on another, and freedom cannot spread as does the cancer known as religion.
Admission, in a legal sense, usually implies not only admitting the facts, but also that there was an error or wrongdoing by the party doing the admitting.
I'm glad you are not my attorney, it sounds as though you are working off the Code of Hammurabi. In regards to most US and EU laws, you are conflating an admission of an act with an admission of guilt. For instance, one can admit to shooting someone, but can be found non-guilty by reason of self defense, insanity, etc. At least in cultures dominated by US/EU, defending oneself by denying facts is usually the worst defense. Maybe that works in cultures dominated by the Russia, China, and Mullahs/Ayatollahs... I'm glad I don't live in those places.
The only people assigning motive and guilt to the MH17 flight shooting seem to be the Ukrainians, who are going out of there way to call this "Terrorism". I think most rational people in the US/EU world are reading this incident something like this: Some drunk yahoos accidentally shot down an airliner with a sophisticated weapon system. I think we all know that the Russians supplied the yahoos with the weapon system which make Putin look bad. No one believes this was terrorism or an intentional attack on an airliner, but we all know, from all the topless pictures, how much Putin hates to look bad.
Russia or the separatists in Eastern Ukraine might have done this -- although no-one is sure what they would stand to gain from it. Ukraine's own military might have done it (they've done it before and denied it vehemently until it was proven beyond a shadow of a doubt).
Nobody seriously thinks that Russia did this, per se. Do many of us think that they armed separatists who did it? Yes. Really, you're going to play the "But what would they have to gain?" card? It's not about gain, it's about incompetence. It's generally thought that the separatists thought it was a Ukrainian military plane. As far the old "Ukraine has done it before" charge goes, I talked about this one last week, you are referring to the Siberian Airlines flight 1812 shootdown of Oct. 2001, no doubt. Well, at first Ukraine sort of admitted it, sort of denied it. There's still talk in some circles that President Kuchma, a buddy of sorts of Putin, agreed to take the heat on this one in exchange for some sort of future favor, although I have no idea what he got out of it. Ukraine played up their hillbilly role by basically saying "We think a reflection off the water caused this terrible accident. We so stupid! Not know what we do! Duh!" Well, it's certainly possible that their military did it, but I can't rule out that they just took the blame to save Putin's face. I've been to Ukraine and in those days, there was a lot of scraping and bowing in the direction of Mother Russia so I certainly think it's possible that Ukraine just claimed to do it to make Russia look good.
I am from the Netherlands, where most of the casualties are from: can we PLEASE stop our uninformed finger pointing until at least some evidence turns up?
None of us know what happened.
Russia or the separatists in Eastern Ukraine might have done this -- although no-one is sure what they would stand to gain from it. Ukraine's own military might have done it (they've done it before and denied it vehemently until it was proven beyond a shadow of a doubt).
When did they do this before? If they had, we would have definitely heard about it because YOUR dictator Putin would never shut up about it if it did. Fuck off, Russian troll!
Geen punt joh, doe ik wel even.
Translation of parent post:
Where you live doesn't fucking matter, everyone can read the papers. Fact is that that cunt retard Rutte should have immediately sent in the marines to secure the crash site. Now those Russian swine have had the time to remove evidence and loot the victims' possessions.
Look, I understand the sentiment. I honestly do. Even the suggestion to send our own strong men, though it is preposterous and you know it.
It just seems to me that the surest way to guarantee that this tragedy will just keep on escalating from what should be first and foremost about the victims and their families, is this rush to conclusions and consequences in this volatile geopolitical powder keg. Except, you know, with nukes.
Gosh, thanks. That must be why the other ships call me Meatfucker -- GCU Grey Area (Eccentric)
"The Soviet shootdown is a simple case of browbeaten lackeys under a tyrannical regime making what they figured was the best choice to cover their asses. There was no threat to them. "
It must be so nice to know everything for sure. I'm really envious of you.
"In 1983, Cold War tensions between the US and USSR had escalated to a level not seen since the Cuban Missile Crisis because of several factors. These included the United States' Strategic Defense Initiative, its planned deployment of Pershing II missiles in Europe in March and April, and FleetEx '83, the largest fleet exercise held to date in the North Pacific.[26] The military hierarchy of the Soviet Union (particularly the old guard led by Soviet General Secretary Yuri Andropov and Soviet Defense Minister Dmitry Ustinov) viewed these actions as bellicose and destabilizing; they were deeply suspicious of US President Ronald Reagan's intentions and openly fearful he was planning a first strike nuclear attack against the Soviet Union. These fears culminated in Operation RYAN, the code name for a secret intelligence gathering program initiated by Andropov to detect a potential nuclear sneak attack which he believed Reagan was plotting.[27]
Aircraft from USS Midway and USS Enterprise repeatedly overflew Soviet military installations in the disputed Kurile Islands during FleetEx '83,[28] resulting in the dismissal or reprimanding of Soviet military officials who had been unable to shoot them down.[29] On the Soviet side, Operation RYAN was expanded.[29] Lastly, there was a heightened alert around the Kamchatka Peninsula at the time KAL 007 was in the vicinity, because of a Soviet missile test that was scheduled for the same day. A United States Air Force RC-135 reconnaissance aircraft flying in the area was monitoring the missile test off the peninsula.[30]"
"If the Russians hadn't been in Eastern Ukraine, where they don't belong, then nobody would be complaining about Russians."
Ummm... Do you mean the "Russians" as in "the Russian mercenaries" or the "Russians" as "the people who's been living in that area for centuries"?
Um, where in my post did I say who was responsible? All I did was give my reasons for not believing that MH17 was "over 500km from its usual path", and providing data to support my reasoning. You continue to solely use FlightAware as supporting evidence, even though I have demonstrated that their data [as provided in their basic maps] is not accurate enough to jump to conclusion that MH17 was off it's usual flight path.
At least explain to me why the FlightRadar24 data (with a 1 minute resolution) doesn't agree with your assertations?
Again with the altitude - please explain why you would need to reduce the altitude of civilian airliner by 600m, even though it was flying at less than half the maximum altitude of an SA-11
Oh, and why have I been "accused" of being an American?
So, in a nutshell, the difference according to you is that the Korean jet was shot down by the evil commies and the Iranian jet was shot down by the American heroes.
Yep. I am convinced.
"It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
Fair point - they do have that timestamps, etc - however they don't use their hi-res data when rendering the track - they also insist on draw points that are unknown - hence the utter confusion being caused (especially with those with an axe to grind*).
* I've been called a shill, but nowhere have I made an assumption over who was responsible - MH17 appears to have been shot down (there's evidence of shrapnel in multiple photos). Whether it was a SAM or AAM, I don't know. I do however get pissed of when people don't think about the information they're looking at, and post it without considering how valid it may be.
Also, you'll notice from the 16th July data pretty much the whole flight from the Poland-Ukraine border to India is estimated (great circle between two known ASD-B points). The FlightRadar24 data has ADS-B data all the way from Amsterdam to Turkmenistan - then they have a gap in their data (which they don't draw, as drawing points you don't know is bad practice) until Pakistan. From what I can tell, FlightRadar24's coverage is far better.
I've also watched [on Russia Today's youtube channel] the Kremlin's presentation on how MH17 was diverted. That diversion wasn't reflected the ADS-B data (although Russian military's should be more accurate**) - it'll be interesting to see what the FDR comes back with.
** What I'm struggling with is the orientation of the chart shown - if it's North-Up, then they're saying MH17 was flying due west when it was directed out of the corridor, where as the ADS-B data show it flying a "fairly" consistent 118 deg.
FWIW, my *GUESS* is that this wasn't planned. Somebody the other day said that this kind of rocket launcher can be set to automaticaly fire on anything passing overhead. That sounds to me quite plausible. So my guess is that somebody set it up on automatic, and took a break when they shouldn't have, or that they were assigned to do something else, so the left the launcher on automatic, or that it was lunch time, so..... etc.
As to WHO the negligent party was, it's plausibly the separtists, it's plausibly some Russian advisor who was detached to help them, it's plausibly anyone who had one of these launchers. It's the kind of stupid thing people do when they're confused and harried. It probably wasn't the Russian troops. This isn't the kind of thing people do when they're part of a standing chain of command.
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
Wow. Just... wow.
This really isn't a good day for you, is it AC?
Perhaps you need a bit more training in propaganda techniques -- doesn't seem like the first class took very well.
Hindsight is 20-20.
Unity? Screw that: XFCE. Slashdot Beta? Screw that: SoylentNews. Australis? Screw that: Pale Moon. UX developers DIAF
Exactly. Russia never even denied involvement. Putin's statement was bluntly "it happened in Ukrainian airspace, hence it's Ukraine's responsibility", while Lavrov ham-handedly contested Ukraine's calling it a terrorist attack. They're all too aware there's far too much incriminating evidence out there to sweep under the rug, hence they're going into damage control. And for all the finesse they used to make the US look like irresponsible warmongers in the Syrian chemical weapons debacle, they're acting laughably clumsy now that they're at the receiving end.
My guess is that the Russians gave their people/proxies in eastern Ukraine enough training to shoot something down, but not to clearly ascertain what they were shooting at. An SA-11 radar system is not as easy to operate as the microwave oven in your kitchen; it takes a lot of training for people to use these things effectively, and it probably wasn't a high priority for the local commanders, as their marching orders were: "covertly create as much provocation and chaos as possible in Eastern Ukraine so that Russia gets the best possible bargaining position once the peace negotiations start". They basically got what they deserved; something like this was just waiting to happen. I would feel wryly satisfied to see the higher-ups in Russia caught utterly by surprise, except that the tragic death of so many innocent people takes all the joy out of it.
Yeah, in territory they don't control. This is stupid even for a conspiracy theory.
There are a large number of proven false flag operations, but even suggesting it's possible is insane? By that measure, rainbows are insane. I can't see one now, so they are obviously uncommon enough that anyone who claims to see one must be lying, right?
Learn to love Alaska
...unlike FlightRadar24 which uses 1 minute resolution data....
You're placing rather too much faith in FlightRadar24 I'm afraid, as all enthusiasts tend to do.
The simple fact is that the Russian backed separatists *believed* they were firing at a Ukrainian military transport.
The simple fact is that neither you nor anyone else knows that at all, and it hasn't been established that Russia has even given the separatists anti-aircraft missiles not to mention the training required. Moscow might provide subtle help, but not that kind of help. Ukraine, on the other hand does, and they've already shot down an airliner with them before. That's the only 'very basic logic error' here.
So, going against the established party line of the west when NO investigation has been conducted, let alone concluded, is a 'conspiracy'?
As far as I can see this is just about as credible as the assumption that this was done by Russian separatists.
Next week when the satellite and black box data come out you will be needed even more.
Good luck with that ;-).
My guess is that the Russians gave their people/proxies in eastern Ukraine enough training to shoot something down, but not to clearly ascertain what they were shooting at.
Errrrr, no. Russians don't do that nor are they going to provide any equipment that will incriminate them. People forget that for all westerners believe they are a bunch of irresponsible peasants these people play a heck of a lot of chess, which means they sit back, investigate, take stock and when they make their move you don't even knows it's happened. Russia is not some tinpot country in some backwater and that's what makes the current situation so dangerous.
When did they do this before? If they had, we would have definitely heard about it because YOUR dictator Putin would never shut up about it if it did. Fuck off, Russian troll!
Let me Google that for you you idiot:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S...
Put simply, we already know Ukraine has the equipment, and they've used it.
Dunno what China has to do with any of this, but if you fear a war is coming, maybe you should tell Putin to stop? Because he's the one hell-bent on conquering his neighbours, which is what this is about.
The only country hell-bent on war is the United States because their power and influence in the world is waning and the sun is very rapidly setting on their empire, such that it is.
The US only got involved in Afghanistan after the USSR was fighting on the ground.
You think that if it gives you comfort.
The Russians didn't supply them with the weapons system...they publicly seized them a while back and then tried to recently say they had no such weapons.
How so? Are the points often grossly inaccurate (out by 10s of km), are the timestamps invalid, do they simply make up data? If you can tell me why the data shouldn't be relied upon (or at least believed), I'm willing to listen.
The reason I'm pushing FlightRadar24 is because the data is there. I also am "trusting" that their data is real because they show gaps in the data as opposed to filling estimated positions in the track between known points. This means that people are less likely to jump to conclusions because they don't realise they're looking at an estimated great circle track.
I've seen no kinks in the tracks to imply that the data is jumping around, or that the points are collected out of order. What I've read about ADS-B gives me no reason to think that the positions and data shouldn't be accurate - otherwise Australia, the US and EU wouldn't be requiring it for some aircraft.
So we're left with the receiving stations - is it possible that amateur receivers are pushing corrupt data to the website, though from what I've read:
ADS-B messages (transmitted every sec without interrogation, with (plane symbol) or without (ball symbol) position, Mode-S downlink format=17) are encoded together with an unambigious 24-bit CRC checksum and would be discarded by a proper decoder if that checksum is false
so receivers shouldn't be doing that.
So, as far as I can tell, we're left with purposely corrupted data, which I'd like to think wouldn't happen, or if it did would be picked up by users.
I don't think black box data will be much use, they were shipped out to Russia within hours of the crash...
Actually, they were recently handed over to Malaysian officials: MH17 crash: Rebels hand over black boxes.
People will pass up steak once a week, for crap every day.
the Russians are clearly supplying the separatists with weapons and trained crews
"Trained crew" is a stretch. A well-trained crew would have made a positive identification before launching. Perhaps there was an IFF signal that would have saved MH17, if it had been paid attention to. The Russians are supplying this assistance to hotheads with little regard for human life (they shoot at anything flying over their self-proclaimed "republic").
That that is is that that that that is not is not.
Nice nitpick on an analogy. Can we discuss the point the analogy is making instead please?
Bullshit. There are plenty of reasons but shooting down a commercial jet resulting in Putin wasting time dealing with the fallout is not a sensible reason no matter what loonies beyond the far right that want to restart the cold war think. Implying that there was an order from Moscow to shoot it down is beyond the far side of crazy IMHO.
I suspect https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wik...
Casteism
you are changing the claim and then refuting it.
the claim is that terrorists shot down something, thinking it's an ukrainian transport plane... except that it was not.
this is confirmed even by their own boasting (which they quickly removed after they saw what fell out of that plane)
Rich
Rescue workers say they have recovered one of the plane's "black box" flight recorders, while pro-Russian separatists are said to have discovered the second black box.
But I see that has just been superseded by what appears to be a rebel handover of two flight recorders. Fog of war...
Human Rights, Article 12: Freedom from Interference with Privacy, Family, Home and Correspondence
Because you're posting on Slashdot, which has a large majority of Septics with their typically abysmal grasp of the world outside America.
Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
I think the problem was that the rescue workers at that time were also the rebels, or at least, were under the barrel of their guns :)
There are two data recorders on civilian airliners, which record different things : a flight DATA recorder (FDR) and a separate cockpit VOICE recorder (CVR). Though quite what new data these would provide is not at all clear to me. Do you think that the alleged Ukrainian fighter plane would have been in conversation with the plane or something? Why would they do that? What's the FDR going to contain? [Flying][More Flying][More Flying]All hell breaks loose, with many sensors and/or power and/or hydraulic buses going down. That's going to tell us that the plane wasn't CFIT by a mad pilot (which is an allegation I've not heard from anyone), and that there wasn't piecemeal falling apart of the plane because the welders were pissed the day they built that airframe (another allegation I've not heard). So what new information are they going to add?
I've never heard of any aircraft carrying two FDR and/or two CVR. Unless you know differently (citation, please). They're expensive bits of kit and take non-trivial maintenance, so only the minimum required is fitted.
What data did the FDR record? That's up to the operator - after the 88 parameters required by FAA specifications. (I assume the FAA requirements will be a minimum, as the airframe was by Boeing, so has made at least one flight originating in the US, and therefore subject to FAA regulations ; it may never have been subject to FAA regulations since, but re-programming and/ or re-wiring the FDR to comply with some other relevant standard would be a significant maintenance task, and why spend the money. I checked the FAA's standard here, and to my surprise they refer back to a European standard "European Organization for Civil Aviation Electronicsâ(TM) (EUROCAE) publication ED-112, Minimum Operational Performance Specification for Crash Protected Airborne Recorder Systems" ; if you want to follow the paper trail, feel free.)
CFIT - one of the most terrifying of aviation acronyms : Controlled Flight Into Terrain.
Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
You're doing that Dutch thing of being all reasonable and calm when less self-controlled peoples (particularly Americans, but not restricted to them) would be running around screaming like headless chickens, and calling for the nuking of any and all countries alleged to be involved, before actually getting any evidence.
How can you have such calmness and self-confidence, when people less involved know that you should be beating them to the peaks of hysteria.
And people wonder why I like working with Cloggies.
Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
That's not me that's your fucking strawman you simplisitic git. Read what is written and don't put words in other people's mouths when what they write is not convenient enough.
This seems somewhat improbable considering that their enemy, the separatists, don't have any aircraft.
It's the same situation as you had in Syria where chemical weapons were being deployed by helicopter in barrels. Was it the rebels or the government? Well, considering that the rebels don't have any helicopters...
I don't often bump a comment, in fact I never have - please tell me why I shouldn't "place too much faith in FlightRadar24"? Explain what to look out for so that I can use an educated opinion as to whether the data is valid or not.
Not educating me just means that I will continue to use the data as given as you've not supported your opinion.
That may seem strange to us in Europe or the USA where miltary and civilian operations are conducted from separate facilities
It should not be strange to Americans either. Peterson Air Force base uses the other end of the Colorado Springs Airport.
https://www.google.com/maps/@3...
And there are others, this one was merely convenient for me to point out.
"Someone needs to talk to the tree of liberty about its ghoulish drinking problem." by ohnocitizen
Not at the time I posted they weren't. The rebels were still delaying and stalling.
Why even bother spoofing the IP? Hack the account of the bot, or set up your own for potential future targets, and inject apparent changes. While this will eventually be found out (far easier than to figure out IP spoofing), if done with a trusted account in the right circumstances I could see an immediate backlash being disproportionate and causing things to escalate quickly.
Basically, wait for the hay pile to build up on the camel, and play that final straw at the right moment...