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Gaza's Only Power Plant Knocked Offline

necro81 (917438) writes "Gaza's only power plant (see this profile at IEEE Spectrum — duct tape and bailing wire not included) has been knocked offline following an Israeli strike. Reports vary, but it appears that Israeli tank shells caused a fuel bunker at the plant to explode. Gaza, already short on electricity despite imports from Israel and Egpyt, now faces widening blackouts."

128 of 868 comments (clear)

  1. Radicalization by mrspoonsi · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Israel is sure doing a good job in that area creating more enemies, if that is their intention, the plan is working.

    1. Re:Radicalization by i+kan+reed · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Not that I approve of Israel's bombing of their own citizens(who happen to not have the right to free travel, economic independence, the vote, or other important aspects we might consider important to a self-declared modern liberal democracy).

      But it would be silly to think that only Israel is making enemies pointlessly, as far as middle east politics is concerned.

    2. Re:Radicalization by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yea, because the random launching of rockets by Hamas over the years doesn't? It's a 2-way street ya know.

    3. Re:Radicalization by acoustix · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Hamas started it and reuses to agree to any proposed cease fire. Israel isn't the group calling for the extermination, Hamas is. Israel has also offered legitimacy to the Palestinian government in exchange for a cease fire and removing the language in the charter to kill all jews.

      But yeah, go ahead and blame Israel.

      --
      "A plan fiendishly clever in its intricacies"- Homer Simpson
    4. Re:Radicalization by JackieBrown · · Score: 3, Insightful

      So what do you think should be Israel's response to the constant bombing of their country?

      The fact that Israel hasn't just wiped the country off the map is perplexing to me. It is usually what happens when a weak country continues to poke at a stronger one.

    5. Re:Radicalization by fredrated · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Thank God they are getting the inmates of the concentration camp under control.

    6. Re:Radicalization by Graydyn+Young · · Score: 2

      I know your being sarcastic, but maybe making enemies is part of the plan. The net result of attacks on Israel has been an over-all increase in territory for Israel. Seems like making enemies has been working out pretty well for them so far.

    7. Re:Radicalization by fredrated · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You mean slaughter them relentlessly like the jews were slaughtered? What an idea!

    8. Re:Radicalization by mrspoonsi · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It is more to do with proportional response. Those rockets they have killed what 2 or 3? there are over 1000 Palestinians dead. You also have to consider that the Palestinian people as a whole are not Hamas, in the same way the Northern Ireland population were not the IRA. The UK did not resort to carpet shelling Northern Ireland to remove the IRA, because it would never have worked, the IRA would only get stronger. Ireland had segregation, it did not work, only by integrating the people can you bring them around and ultimately onto the same side. For every innocent non-terrorist killed, that will recruit many terrorists.

    9. Re:Radicalization by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If a schoolyard bully steals your lunch money, an appropriate response is not to light his house on fire, bar the windows and doors so no one can escape. In my country, they call that murder.

      But convince yourself of anything that makes you sleep at night.

    10. Re:Radicalization by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      > So what do you think should be Israel's response to the constant bombing of their country?

      Whatever it is, killing women and children isn't it.

      No, I don't approve of what Hamas is doing (or has been doing all the time), but just count the casualties. Israel's response just isn't it. They're just providing Hamas with more people ready to go all-out.

      Evil is definitely on both sides, but the moral weight on Israel looks way greater, as they're operating from the position of strength.

    11. Re:Radicalization by Splab · · Score: 4, Informative

      Did they now?

      Perhaps you should read other propaganda than you normal intake and see what other parts of the world is thinking.

      Right now Israel is facing a lot of problems, it seems like they very well knew that Hamas in fact did *not* sanction the kidnappings; also Israel seems to have left out important informations regarding the kidnapping in order to step up the conflict with Hamas.

    12. Re:Radicalization by junkgoof · · Score: 2

      The government is right wing and, like GWB gets more votes when there is a war on. The more people are hurt or killed on both sides the more people want war so it feeds on itself and the government has a better chance of staying in power and enriching selves, friends and political allies.

      Israel was quite restrained when governed by parties that did not benefit from additional violence.

      You would think lives > votes but certainly the US and Israel strongly disagree. I'd be curious how many western governments would refrain from killing citizens for votes. Certainly most of them are willing to kill their economies for campaign donations.

      --
      You got me into this! You were the ideologue! I'm only a poor assassin! - Twenty evocations, Bruce Sterling
    13. Re:Radicalization by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      "Not that I approve of Israel's bombing of their own citizens" - Israel never bombed their own citizens, you probably mean Hamas. In fact, Israel developed high-end technology to protect its citizens from rockets.

      "who happen to not have the right to free travel, economic independence, the vote, or other important aspects we might consider important to a self-declared modern liberal democracy" - Israeli citizens has all the rights that Americans have. That includes everything on your list, and it also applies to all citizens, regardless of their religion or political affiliation.

    14. Re:Radicalization by i+kan+reed · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Don't want to call people living in their territorial boundaries their whole lives "their own citizens"? Fine.

      Their enslaved subjects then.

    15. Re:Radicalization by jameslore · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If they stopped building settlements; stopped dissecting the West Bank for the settler's safety and actually acted like they were interested in a two state solution, that'd be pretty good.

      Few sane people are criticising Israel's right and necessity to defend its citizens (although the way they're going about it is certainly fair game) - where it appears most critics (including myself) have a problem is in that subset of Israelis who oppose peace and (especially through the settlements) do everything possible to obstruct it - and have been controlling the government in recent years. Hamas's behaviour is indefensible. But unprovoked it is not, and for the Israeli government to play the innocent in this is just taking the piss.

      TL;DR As history proves, violence without a political dimension only begets more violence.

    16. Re:Radicalization by Ol+Olsoc · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Hamas started it and reuses to agree to any proposed cease fire. Israel isn't the group calling for the extermination, Hamas is. Israel has also offered legitimacy to the Palestinian government in exchange for a cease fire and removing the language in the charter to kill all jews.

      But yeah, go ahead and blame Israel.

      Blah, blah, blah. These two will not stop until one or the other is eliminated from the face of the earth.

      Both sides spout off the terrible things the other side is doing to them. And have no intention of ever stopping. My guess is this came down to someone stole someone's goats thousands of years ago, and it's been Hatfield and McCoys - Middle Eastern division - ever since

      Because any time it looks like some calm, one or the other side starts screwing with the other.

      Neither side has any intention of stopping. - ever. The biggest mistake is that both sides end up dragging others into their "neighbors who can't get along" war

      So spare me the atrocity whinefest from both sides. It's awful, and it's sad, and its horrifying. But you all are doing this because this is what you want to do. If both sides didn't want to do this, they'd have stopped doing it - a long long time ago.. Peace is not an option here.

      This has been going on from biblical times, and will go on as long as humans exist. Nothing can be done about it. Neither side wants that. For whatever insane reason, both sides are getting something they want from the situation.

      Que the "yeah but" arguments from both sides.

      --
      The shepherds did so well protecting the flock that the sheep no longer believed that wolves existed.
    17. Re:Radicalization by disposable60 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      In fact, aren't there Muslims in the Knesset?
      Show me another country in the region that has a single Jew or Christian in office.

      --
      You're looking for quotes? See my journal.
    18. Re:Radicalization by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If a schoolyard bully steals your lunch money, an appropriate response is not to light his house on fire, bar the windows and doors so no one can escape. In my country, they call that murder.

      But convince yourself of anything that makes you sleep at night.

      I will convince myself.

      And while I do, you should think twice before stealing my lunch money.

    19. Re:Radicalization by ZX-3 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      A comparison with the IRA has its limitations: The IRA mission statement was not the destruction of the entire UK.
      The last time the existence of the UK was threatened, it actually did attempt to continuously bomb its enemies.

    20. Re:Radicalization by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      They're not "Israeli citizens" but Israel doesn't want them to be "Palestine" citizens either. that is the entire problem/conflict in it's simplicity at this point.

      They're effectively stateless and effectively without human rights in eyes of the Israeli state - and Israel jews have absolutely zero intent to integrate them into the Israeli state but they don't want them to live where they live either(and many who get voices in the Israeli media have the opinion that they shouldn't live at all, anywhere! and they're playing the "we're the good guys come on why you mad?").

      basically, it has boiled down to the Israelis referring to them as scum and calling for GENOCIDE. Seriously, the fucks tout "killing them and their mothers and sons" in their media and somehow think that's OK because handful of Israelis has died in the conflict - which includes taking the land of the palestines by force and killing them in the thousands.

      as a consequence, I have decided to just fuck everything Israeli, never travel there, never give them intentionally money and so forth and if a politician would talk about putting an embargo on them I would vote for him.

      I mean Israel is turning it to a point where it would be logical(for the defenders) and historically defendable to use battle gases against the Israeli population centres - because they are faced with genocide of their people.

      furthermore it's despicable that the western nations aren't prosecuting their citizens who go and serve in a war for another nation in this case.

    21. Re:Radicalization by Jahta · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Did they now?

      Perhaps you should read other propaganda than you normal intake and see what other parts of the world is thinking.

      Right now Israel is facing a lot of problems, it seems like they very well knew that Hamas in fact did *not* sanction the kidnappings; also Israel seems to have left out important informations regarding the kidnapping in order to step up the conflict with Hamas.

      Quite so. And furthermore, rather than doing the normal criminal investigation thing (collect evidence, arrest likely suspects, bring them to trial, etc), Israel decided that they "just knew" who did it and sent the Israeli Airforce in to flatten their neighbourhood. Israel was very quick to jump on the bandwagon of George W. Bush's "war on terror"; label all your enemies as terrorists and use that to justify whatever you do to them.

      To put that in some context, how would the international community have reacted if the British government (during the Irish "troubles") had sent the RAF to bomb neighbourhoods in Belfast or Derry because "we think there are some terrorists there"? It wasn't acceptable then and it's not acceptable now.

    22. Re:Radicalization by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      What do you mean, "proportional response"? The kids in Gaza keep on lobbing rockets until Israel says "enough is enough". And then the kids go "whaaaaa Israel is meeeeaaaaan to uuuuus". And hey, it's working, for lots of people are buying the marketeering. Because nobody could kill themselves just for a bit of good press, now could they? Just like nobody would willingly blow themselves up to make a political statement. Oh wait....

      If you actually go look at what they do, you might note that Israel sends both phoned warning and a "knock on the roof" before a strike (does hamas phone ahead where they're going to strike? well?) only to find the roof full of civilians right after the warning. In contrast, the rockets hamas sends get picked up and word gets sent out to the target so that the Israelis can find shelter, and they do.

      So I really do think that comparing casualty numbers here, when they're competently kept low by Israel and intentionally driven up by hamas, and yes they're deliberately trying to get their own killed for the press value, is a little disingenious. Unless you don't mind parrotting Hamas propaganda. Because that is what it is: Propaganda, very very bloodily so.

    23. Re:Radicalization by Xest · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The whole reason Hamas runs Gaza is because Palestinians elected them, and subsequent infighting resulted in the largely Hamas loyal Gazans ousting Fatah and pushing them to the West Bank, or just outright killing them.

      So it's a bit of a cop out to pretend that civilians in Gaza can't be blamed for Hamas - they can, they voted for them, and they supported the ousting of the far more moderate and reasonable Fatah, those who supported Fatah were killed or fled to the West Bank.

      So Palestinians in Gaza share an awful lot of the blame for Hamas is actions - they actively create and support the environment in which Hamas can do what it keeps doing.

      Which isn't to say I support Israel either, their provocations such as arbitrary raids and continued provocative settlement building and land seizure in the West Bank where Palestinians are more moderate and are behaving is just asking to cause trouble too, but let's not pretend that Gazans are largely innocent, sorry to Godwin the argument, but they're ultimately no more innocent than the Germans in the 30s who voted for and support the National Socialists. If you vote for extremists you have to take responsibility for and accept the repercussions of doing so.

    24. Re:Radicalization by dabadab · · Score: 2, Insightful

      So what do you think should Palestine's response to the constant checkpoints, blockading of their ports, airport and border crossings, as well as the occupation and continued confiscation of their land by Israel should be?

      I ask you the same and if you would come to the conclusion that randomly firing rockets on Isreal and demanding the death of all Jews is the rational reaction that has a very good chance of bringing prosperity and happiness to the inhabitants of the Gaza Strip, I am very much interested in your reasoning.

      --
      Real life is overrated.
    25. Re:Radicalization by Richard_at_work · · Score: 5, Informative

      Iran specifically has one Parliament seat reserved each for both a Jewish member and a Christian member (as well as a number of other minority groups) as part of its religious minority group policy.

    26. Re:Radicalization by TheP4st · · Score: 5, Informative

      Show me another country in the region that has a single Jew or Christian in office.

      Out of 290 seats the Iranian parliament have 3 Jewish, 4 Catholic and another 7 occupied by non-muslim minorities. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I...

      --
      "I have downloaded hundreds and hundreds of records, why would I care if somebody downloads ours?" Robin Pecknold
    27. Re:Radicalization by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Your perception of proportional is just an opinion, an opinion based on an oversimplification of events.

      Hamas calls for Israels destruction. If given their way, they would commit genocide on every Israeli out there. They get rockets from Iran and Sudan smuggled through the Sinai in order to attack Israel. The rockets have no chance of ever doing serious damage to Israel, they are a terror weapon. Their purpose is to cause fear and panic in the Israeli population to disrupt the Israeli government. When fired, the Israeli government has no choice but to respond and try to destroy the launchers and shut down the tunnels.

      Specifically, Hamas places the launchers of these rockets in heavily urbanized areas, next to schools, hospitals, and other civilians. Their aim is to have the launcher destroyed but cause significant civilian casualties amongst their own people in order to get people like you around the world inflamed against Israel and turn public opinion away. Specifically they're looking for the global Muslim public opinion, as it makes them viewed as the victim and Israel the heartless monster, which brings more foreign fighters to support them and encourages foreign support from Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and the various emirates.

      So when you say 2-3 vs 1000 you are completely oversimplifying the situation. Israel has conducted a very limited ground operation with the objective of wiping out smuggling tunnels; they are not indiscriminately shelling Gaza population centers. Their airstrikes are targeting the launchers but invariably there will be misses, and because Hamas uses it's own people as sacrificial lambs and bullet shields, there will inevitably be large civilian casualties.

      But, you know, just gloss over that. Just gloss over the fact that Hamas is now the legitimate ruling party of a sovereign Palestinian nation, and yet violates the Geneva Conventions on a regular basis. They build tunnels into Israel to smuggle in operatives to conduct kidnappings and murders and suicide bombings. They acquire long range artillery, place it in their own population centers to use their own people as shields, adn then use them to target civilian population centers. Their fighters bear no markings, no uniforms or even a badge of sorts to identify them as such. But yeah, because Israel constantly has it's territory violated, it's people killed, and it's cities attacked with rockets that their response is somehow the aggressor here. The only reason the death toll is so lopsided is because of the capabilities and discipline differences between the two, but if this were an even fight you'd be seeing more like 1 million dead Israelis. Intent of the aggressors matters more than capabilities.

    28. Re:Radicalization by mjm1231 · · Score: 2

      So, threatening extermination=bad, carrying out extermination=less bad. Got it.

      --
      Ideology: A tool used primarily to avoid the bother of thinking.
    29. Re:Radicalization by NoImNotNineVolt · · Score: 4, Informative

      in exchange for a cease fire and removing the language in the charter to kill all jew

      You can't remove that which doesn't exist. Hamas' charter includes language that identifies the dismantlement of the state of Israel as a goal, but nothing about killing all Jews. In fact, let's take a look at the text of the charter, and more specifically any instance of the word "kill":

      From Article Seven: The Universality of Hamas:

      The prophet, prayer and peace be upon him, said: The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him! This will not apply to the Gharqad, which is a Jewish tree (cited by Bukhari and Muslim).

      A quote from Mohammed. No value judgement made. On its own, a statement of fact (assuming Mohammed did actually say these things). No incitating to kill Jews, let alone all Jews.

      From Article Fifteen: The Jihad for the Liberation of Palestine is an Individual Obligation:

      We must imprint on the minds of generations of Muslims that the Palestinian problem is a religious one, to be dealt with on this premise. It includes Islamic holy sites such as the Aqsa Mosque, which is inexorably linked to the Holy Mosque as long as the Heaven and earth will exist, to the journey of the Messenger of Allah, be Allah’s peace and blessing upon him, to it, and to his ascension from it. “Dwelling one day in the Path of Allah is better than the entire world and everything that exists in it. The place of the whip of one among you in Paradise is better than the entire world and everything that exists in it. [God’s] worshiper’s going and coming in the Path of Allah is better than the entire world and everything that exists in it.” (Told by Bukhari, Muslim Tirmidhi and Ibn Maja) I swear by that who holds in His Hands the Soul of Muhammad! I indeed wish to go to war for the sake of Allah! I will assault and kill, assault and kill, assault and kill (told by Bukhari and Muslim).

      A call to regain control of Muslim holy sites by violent means. While I personally am no fan of holy wars, one would have to be rather obtuse to mistake this for a call for genocide.

      From Article Twenty: Social Solidarity:

      The Nazism of the Jews does not skip women and children, it scares everyone. They make war against people’s livelihood, plunder their moneys and threaten their honor. In their horrible actions they mistreat people like the most horrendous war criminals. Exiling people from their country is another way of killing them. As we face this misconduct, we have no escape from establishing social solidarity among the people, from confronting the enemy as one solid body, so that if one organ is hurt the rest of the body will respond with alertness and fervor.

      A denouncement of Jews and their treatment of their Arab neighbors. No call for violence here either.

      So it seems that Israel has offered legitimacy to the Palestinian government in exchange for removal from the Hamas charter language which doesn't exist. Should we be surprised that this "offer" hasn't led to any meaningful reconciliation or normalization of relations?

      Now, once you understand that there is no language that calls for the killing of all Jews, you can focus on less inflamatory (but more productive) objections to the charter. Perhaps the part "Israel will rise and will remain erect until Islam eliminates it as it had eliminated its predecessors" bothers you. Indeed, this too is a call to violence, a call to destroy the state of Israel. However, this is no different than Israel's stated aim of destroying Hamas. It's a violent political goal, but that's not the same thing as genocide. If Israel is justified in calling for the destruction of Hamas, Hamas is equally justified in calling for the destruction of Israel (which, I feel compelled to remind you, is not the same as calling for the killing of all Jews, any more than calling for the destruction of Hamas is the same as calling for the killing of all Palestinians).

      --
      Chuuch. Preach. Tabernacle.
    30. Re:Radicalization by Xest · · Score: 5, Insightful

      "So what do you think should Palestine's response to the constant checkpoints, blockading of their ports, airport and border crossings, as well as the occupation and continued confiscation of their land by Israel should be? "

      Whatever it should be, launching rocket strikes on civilian population centres is most definitely not it.

      Yes the way Israel treats Gaza is wholly unacceptable, but Gazans should take a leaf from the book of those in the West Bank and focus on peaceful resistance. That gives them the moral high ground.

      It's worth bearing in mind that part the reason Gaza is so heavily blockaded right now is because Hamas was also attacking Egyptian soldiers in support of Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood's violent resistance to it's overthrow forcing Egypt to shut Gaza's southern borders. If Gazans were simply sticking to peaceful protest then whatever the Israel do to blockade them the Egyptians would be letting food and supplies in right now. There are two borders in and out of Gaza and Gazans have successfully pissed off those controlling both of them with violence.

      Gazans have made enemies with both their neighbours with persistent violent action and that's led to their isolation. Their isolation has become their excuse to start being even more violent which has now led to destruction of their infrastructure and widespread suffering.

      For all the wrongs of the Israeli and Egyptian regimes it should be blindingly obvious to Gazans by now that the response to oppression by their enemies most definitely isn't aggression if they actually want to improve their lives.

      The only reason Israel can get away with attacking Gaza in the first place is because there's substantial military infrastructure to attack. If Gazans disarmed then Israel would have absolutely no grounds to strike it - just like Israel does not strike Palestinians in the West Bank precisely because Palestinians there have learnt that non-violent opposition is a far better starting point for improving your situation.

    31. Re:Radicalization by SJester · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Poor analogy. Hamas has been trying very, very hard to kill lots and lots of civilians. They're just not very good at it but something will get through eventually. A better analogy is if that schoolyard bully keeps shooting at your house with a 22, but so far you've stayed away from the windows and your dog has kept him out of the yard. It's still not a way to live and you are under no obligation to endure it for more than... I don't know, five years? And then yes, you are completely welcome to go burn the guy's house down. Knock on the door, politely ask his parents to leave, text them, call them, leave a note, and then fire a warning shot. But yes, you can burn his house down and kill him. Because he has been trying extremely hard to kill you.

    32. Re:Radicalization by Bertie · · Score: 4, Informative

      Lebanon is set up such that the president is always Christian, the prime minister Sunni Muslim, and the speaker of parliament Shia Muslim.

    33. Re:Radicalization by necro81 · · Score: 3, Informative

      Show me another country in the region that has a single Jew or Christian in office.

      You mean like Lebanon, Israel's neighbor to the north?

      From Wikipedia:
      "High-ranking offices are reserved for members of specific religious groups. The President, for example, has to be a Maronite Christian, the Prime Minister a Sunni Muslim, the Speaker of the Parliament a Shi’a Muslim, the Deputy Prime Minister and the Deputy Speaker of Parliament Eastern Orthodox....

      "Lebanon's national legislature is the unicameral Parliament of Lebanon. Its 128 seats are divided equally between Christians and Muslims, proportionately between the 18 different denominations and proportionately between its 26 regions."

      I wouldn't say that government-by-religious-and-ethnic-quota is necessarily a great way to go, but it does provide diversity.

    34. Re:Radicalization by AchilleTalon · · Score: 5, Informative

      Your description does not correspond to the facts. Initially, they were seeking for the three kidnapped young men to save them. It is only 20 days later the bodies were found left by the killers in an open field. In the operation to find the kidnappers, many weapons caches were found and a weapon manufacture lab was uncovered in the operation and many arrests are related to these. The kidnappers were identified within 24 hours and it is partly because they were they left the bodies in an open field instead of negociating the return to their families. The Hamas is linked to the kidnappers even if some people are saying they are members of a more radical faction. The reality is the Hamas is supporting this more radical faction as well.

      --
      Achille Talon
      Hop!
    35. Re:Radicalization by smooth+wombat · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If Gazans disarmed then Israel would have absolutely no grounds to strike it

      Thank you for pointing out the hypocrisy of the situation. People who are under occupation, subject to the whims of a foreign country are supposed to roll over and play dead and cannot, in any way shape or form, defend themselves or retaliate against their oppressors.

      Funny I didn't see the Jews in Warsaw roll over and play dead, I didn't see the Jews before the creation of Israel roll over and play dead under British rule. Apparently everyone else is supposed to roll over and play dead except Israelis who are the poor, oppressed people and so should be able to defend themselves.

      Again, thank you for the hypocritical stance.

      --
      We will bankrupt ourselves in the vain search for absolute security. -- Dwight D. Eisenhower
    36. Re:Radicalization by Richard_at_work · · Score: 5, Insightful

      (Please don't give Iran as an example for anything relating to democracy or human rights)

      Why not? Because Iran doesn't 100% conform to your standards across the board?

    37. Re:Radicalization by cbeaudry · · Score: 2, Informative

      Nice little piece of propaganda spin there.

      Has anyone told you, on Slashdot posting anonymously doesn't work. You need to use one of the old accounts, just buy it from someone, then your propaganda will get traction.

      So, how are things in your university class room in Israel? Feeling like you are part of the "team" are we, like your participating in the "war".
      Nice to see, you love the bloodshed.

      http://www.globalresearch.ca/i...

      Student propagandists in Israel are just as Evil as the Government in place.
      If you dont agree, you dont spread lies. If you actively spread lies, its like you are killing the children yourself.

      SHAME ON YOU!

    38. Re:Radicalization by JesseMcDonald · · Score: 3, Insightful

      So it's a bit of a cop out to pretend that civilians in Gaza can't be blamed for Hamas - they can, they voted for them, and they supported the ousting of the far more moderate and reasonable Fatah, those who supported Fatah were killed or fled to the West Bank.

      Hamas won the election with only 44.45% of the popular vote, with about 25% of the eligible population abstaining (Palestinian legislative election, 2006). You're blaming all Palestinians for a choice made by less than half of the voters, which is hardly fair. Those who voted against Hamas aren't to blame for the actions of Hamas just because they were unfortunate enough to be on the losing side of the election. On top of that, the way Hamas has dealt with Fatah supporters means that even some of the 44.45% who voted for Hamas could reasonably be considered to be under duress.

      --
      "The state is that great fiction by which everyone tries to live at the expense of everyone else." - Bastiat
    39. Re:Radicalization by NoNonAlphaCharsHere · · Score: 3, Insightful

      "Not that I approve of Israel's bombing of their own citizens" - Israel never bombed their own citizens, you probably mean Hamas. In fact, Israel developed high-end technology to protect its citizens from rockets.

      "who happen to not have the right to free travel, economic independence, the vote, or other important aspects we might consider important to a self-declared modern liberal democracy" - Israeli citizens has all the rights that Americans have. That includes everything on your list, and it also applies to all citizens, regardless of their religion or political affiliation.

      How is this lying bullshit propaganda "insightful"?

      Saddam never gassed his own citizens, you probably mean Kurdish insurgents.
      Assad never gassed his own citizens, you probably mean rebels.

      "i kan reed"'s "troll" above is exactly correct. Those people have lived within the territorial boundaries their whole lives. How are they NOT "citizens"? Oh, that's right, because the Israeli government SAYS they can't vote or travel freely because they've put a handy (potential) "terrist" label on them, simply because they live in an area that Israel ANNEXED and is OCCUPYING militarily.

      The Israeli government is being run by far-right reactionaries who make Dick Cheney look like a "live-and-let-live" dove, and yet people still blindly support their aggression with Netanyahu's "right-to-exist/security" rhetoric. Instead of blindly "supporting Israel", maybe we should support Israel when they do something worth supporting. - like trying to get along with their own second-class citizens.

      Some gutless asshole will anonymously drop a "I don't agree with you - troll" mod on this, but that won't make it any less true.

    40. Re:Radicalization by ericloewe · · Score: 3, Insightful

      "No sir, I did not incite genocide. I merely filled the streets with a quote by a dead person who happened to incite genocide."

      If you don't realize just how idiotic that statement is, I recommend you shut up and stop making a fool out of yourself.

    41. Re:Radicalization by ericloewe · · Score: 2

      Gaza certainly was not "occupied" until a few days ago.

      I'm sure terrorist-smuggling tunnels and rocket attacks had nothing to do with that.

    42. Re:Radicalization by HateBreeder · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Please read the Hamas (aka the elected government of the palestinians) charter:

      http://fas.org/irp/world/para/...

      Selected quotes:

      "The time(16) will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: 0 Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him! This will not apply to the Gharqad(17), which is a Jewish tree (cited by Bukhari and Muslim)(18)."

      "Israel, by virtue of its being Jewish and of having a Jewish population, defies Islam and the Muslims."

      --
      Sigs are for the weak.
    43. Re:Radicalization by NoImNotNineVolt · · Score: 2

      If you can't see the difference between opposing a political entity and genocide, then I suppose you would say that Israel is engaging in genocide regarding the current conflict? No? Oh, how impartial of you.

      I have no horse in this race and feel that the world would be better off if the entire Arabian tectonic plate were to be rapidly subducted.

      However, posts like yours illustrate how cheerleaders on both sides, incapable of even an attempt at objectivity, are the main obstacle to achieving a lasting peace in the area. I quote directly from the source material in an attempt to open your eyes with facts, and you dismiss me as an idiotic fool. That's a strong logical argument there, buddy. I'm sure you'll win over lots of Hamas sympathizers with it.

      --
      Chuuch. Preach. Tabernacle.
    44. Re:Radicalization by blue9steel · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If the Israelis are carrying out an extermination campaign they're not doing a very good job. So far they've killed 1065 Palestinians out of 1.816 million in the Gaza Strip, so that's like 0.06%. They've been at it for 22 days, if they kept this pace continually they'd kill just under 1% per year which is lower than the population growth rate. Unless they seriously step up their game the Palestinians are in no danger of extinction.

      Or perhaps we could just acknowledge that Hamas is deliberately siting their weapons near civilians in order to increase the collateral damage of Israeli strikes. Frankly I think the Israelis are being pretty restrained given the scope of the problem. I can guarantee you that if the Mexicans were lobbing rockets into El Paso, Texas we'd be lighting them up like the 4th of July. (No offense to the Mexican people who for the most part would rather move here than lob rockets at us).

    45. Re:Radicalization by Wootery · · Score: 3, Insightful

      44.45% of the popular vote, with about 25% of the eligible population abstaining

      Reminder: 75% turnout is really rather good: it beats the UK turnout rates[PDF warning]. Also, 44.5% of the voters is a huge number. To imply that anything less than 50% makes it illegitimate is just stupid: thankfully, not all countries are stuck with a two-party system.

      Your other points (possible duress, unfair blame) are sound.

    46. Re:Radicalization by HateBreeder · · Score: 2

      Carrying out extermination? Really?

      And "only" 700 dead after 21 days?

      35/day.

      Wow, pretty incompetent extermination... doubt we can even offset natural population growth at this rate.

      --
      Sigs are for the weak.
    47. Re:Radicalization by Richard_at_work · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Not at all, except no country on this planet gives completely equal rights to all fellow citizens - hows that gay marriage thing coming in the US?

      So in the context of the point raised by disposable60, Iran has both Christians and Jews in office, and your post is nothing more than an attempt to sideline that fact.

    48. Re:Radicalization by Charliemopps · · Score: 4, Insightful

      So, threatening extermination=bad, carrying out extermination=less bad. Got it.

      It's all bad.

      It's like watching your 2 drunken uncles accuse each other of stealing too much whiskey. At first you defend the one because you saw him steel the whiskey, then you realize the others been sneaking it to. Now they're in a full brawl on the living room floor in the middle of Christmas dinner, their kids (your cousins) are terrified and rooting for their respective fathers and you realize in 20 years those kids will be on this very same floor, having the same brawl, and all you can do is stand back and wonder why life is so screwed up.

      Except... with tanks and rockets.

    49. Re:Radicalization by Xest · · Score: 3, Informative

      No, the elections were deemed to be free and fair (well actually there was a bit of interference, but it was by the Israelis to try and cut the Hamas vote), which was actually quite a headache for the west at the time because whilst the US et. al. were crying for democracy it led to a result that they just did not want.

      As for the result, try reading my post again you seem to have completely glossed over the point I made. You cannot simply take the popular vote and spread it evenly between the West Bank and Gaza. Whilst the overall vote may well have been 44% in favour of Hamas, that doesn't equate to 44% in the West Bank, and 44% in Gaza - that's a gross statistical misunderstanding. Given roughly equal population numbers (they're not too dissimilar) between Gaza and the West Bank you can have a result whereby the overall popular vote is 44% whilst 88% of Gazans support Hamas and 0% of Palestinians in the West Bank. Hopefully this example clears up your inability to understand why that overall figure gives a misleading layout of support for Hamas in Gaza.

      Gaza is the Hamas heartland and there's where the majority of their support comes from. This is precisely why Hamas was able to swiftly kick (or kill) Fatah and it's supporters out of Gaza in 2007.

      Hamas took over Gaza so rapidly in 2007 precisely because it enjoys massive popular support there and because it gained a massive democratic mandate there (and overall).

    50. Re:Radicalization by mi · · Score: 2, Informative

      Oh, so it's a separate nation that Israel recognizes?

      No, they are not a nation — not in Israel's opinion, not in their own, not in that of the rest of the world. When the UN split the former British mandate into two parts, Jews proceeded to establishing their own state. The Arabs, instead of likewise establishing theirs, declared war... That was because — in their own opinions — they weren't separate nations (Jordanians, Iraqis, Syrians), but simply Arabs. They lost that war — and the subsequent ones. By the end of the 20th century, Arabs have given up attacking Israel openly and switched to terrorism on one hand and propaganda whining on the other.

      That tactics seems to be succeeding...

      Not a territory they claim?

      No, Israel has no territorial claim to Gaza strip. Are you not embarrassed over being wrong so often?

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    51. Re:Radicalization by mi · · Score: 2

      hows that gay marriage thing coming in the US?

      All US citizens have the exact same right, when it comes to marriage: they can be married to one person of the opposite gender, who are not too closely related to them by blood.

      That about 3% of the population are unable to exercise that right is unfortunate, but it does not mean, they are deprived of the right.

      Not any more so, than a quadriplegic is deprived of the right to practice karate.

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    52. Re:Radicalization by chipschap · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Everyone can say whatever they want, but this much is worth repeating: If Hamas, etc., disarmed, there would be peace. If Israel disarmed, they would be utterly destroyed.

    53. Re:Radicalization by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Specifically, Hamas places the launchers of these rockets in heavily urbanized areas, next to schools, hospitals, and other civilians. Their aim is to have the launcher destroyed but cause significant civilian casualties amongst their own people in order to get people like you around the world inflamed against Israel and turn public opinion away. Specifically they're looking for the global Muslim public opinion, as it makes them viewed as the victim and Israel the heartless monster, which brings more foreign fighters to support them and encourages foreign support from Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and the various emirates.

      [...]Their airstrikes are targeting the launchers but invariably there will be misses, and because Hamas uses it's own people as sacrificial lambs and bullet shields, there will inevitably be large civilian casualties.

      By your own accounting, Israel seems to be completely dancing to Hamas's tune. If this is exactly how Hamas wants it to play out, and their stated goal is the destruction of Israel, how can you condone following their plan to the letter? There has to be a better way.

    54. Re:Radicalization by TheP4st · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I certainly agree more that Iran is far, very far from a role model when it come to democracy and human rights. Then again one can question whether a nation where in many places women face increasing obstacles in getting an abortion, executes mentally handicapped, detain people for over a decade charges and engage in extraordinary rendition is that good of a role model either.

      --
      "I have downloaded hundreds and hundreds of records, why would I care if somebody downloads ours?" Robin Pecknold
    55. Re:Radicalization by mi · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Saddam never gassed his own citizens, you probably mean Kurdish insurgents.

      Assad never gassed his own citizens, you probably mean rebels.

      Both strongmen considered their victims to be their citizens and subjects. In the state of rebellion, but citizens nonetheless. Bullshit propaganda much?

      How are they NOT "citizens"?

      How are they citizens?

      Those people have lived within the territorial boundaries their whole lives.

      So? The "boundaries" have Israel on one of the sides — why aren't you claiming them to be citizens of Jordan and Egypt? At least, those two neighbors actually once occupied the entire West Bank and Gaza respectively — for twenty years...

      The Israeli government is being run by far-right reactionaries

      Israeli government has changed many times since the country's establishment — swinging from Left to Right and anything in between. Never once have PLO or Hamas changed their official goal of destroying Israel.

      but that won't make it any less true.

      Nothing your wrote is true — except for the obvious fact, that downmodding will not make it any less so.

      --
      In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
    56. Re:Radicalization by GNious · · Score: 2, Interesting

      If Israel weren't so hell-bent on creating more supporters for Hamas and similar organizations, your dreams of disarmament might come true.

      Meanwhile, every Palestinian child that dies during these events results in more people signing up to fight the Israeli, the Americans and all other non-Arab, non-Muslim out there.
      (Yes, it SERIOUSLY doesn't matter who is to blame - the last 3 weeks have done more for the recruitment efforts by Hamas et al, than anything Hamas could do on their own, no matter the validity, or lack of same, in the actions taken by Israel.)

    57. Re:Radicalization by swb · · Score: 2

      Even when the existence of the UK was largely no longer in question, the British firebombed Dresden punitively.

    58. Re:Radicalization by TheP4st · · Score: 5, Informative

      I've seen Israel do things for the benefit of Palestinian citizens that Hamas refuses to do.

      Indeed, like when Israel built Gaza's first and only airport in the late 90's only to have it demolished by Hamas 4 years later. Oh! right it was the other way around. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y...
      But of course that is not a bad thing as the airport now is a valuable resource for hard to get by construction materials for the rebuilding of other structures. /sarcasm

      --
      "I have downloaded hundreds and hundreds of records, why would I care if somebody downloads ours?" Robin Pecknold
    59. Re:Radicalization by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Gaza has been occupied since 1967. No boats, other than the Free Gaza floatillas, have landed in Gaza since 1967. Hamas wasn't created until 1987, after twenty years of occupation in Gaza and forty years after half of Gaza's population was expelled from Israel for not being Jewish. Just because Israel's troops have redeployed to the border doesn't mean that Gaza isn't occupied since the current regime is just a continuation of what has been going on continuously for almost 50 years. Israel still possesses 1/3rd of the arable land in Gaza and shoots farmers and children attempting to work the land on sight. Gazans do not have control over their own borders, waters, airspace, taxes, imports, exports, or much of anything else. Furthermore, Gaza and the West Bank are a single political entity and Israel is still occupying them.

    60. Re:Radicalization by ADRA · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Population per sq. KM:

      Rank Country/Region Density
      (Pop. per km2)
      1 Singapore 7301
      2 Hong Kong 6396
      3 Gaza Strip 5045
      4 Bahrain 646
      5 Bangladesh 1034
      6 Palestine 711
      7 Taiwan (R.O.C) 646
      8 Mauritius 631
      9 South Korea 505
      10 Lebanon 475
      11 Rwanda 407

      Its hard to find a place in the west bank that wouldn't be around something of importance, and many many people. You may as well say that Hamas shouldn't set up missiles anywhere, because invariably any blow back will guarantee human fatalities. Just submit nicely and live in your holes while your friendly neighbourhood rulers do the same.

      --
      Bye!
    61. Re:Radicalization by TheP4st · · Score: 2

      Israel isn't carpet bombing the Palestinians, they're targeting legitimate military

      I doubt that UN spokesperson Chris Gunness would agree with that:

      there had earlier been "firing around the compound" and his organisation had asked the Israeli army for time to evacuate civilians. "We spent much of the day trying to negotiate or to coordinate a window so that civilians, including our staff, could leave. That was never granted and the consequences of that appear to be tragic." Gunness said the Israeli military were supplied with coordinates of UN schools where those displaced were sheltering. UN sources told the Guardian a call was placed to the Israeli military at 10.55am requesting permission to evacuate but their call was not returned.

      And as most of us know that ended with 15 civilians killed and over 200 injured, many severely so.

      --
      "I have downloaded hundreds and hundreds of records, why would I care if somebody downloads ours?" Robin Pecknold
    62. Re:Radicalization by ericloewe · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You don't get it, do you?

      Leaving your pitiful strawman response aside, the point is as follows:

      You cannot pretend to not incite genocide if you're quoting a guy who IS inciting genocide.

      While quoting does not always imply that the author agrees, in this particular case it does. By quoting a prophet, who by definition speaks God's word, they are effectively saying "Do what he says!", even if they don't make a clear statement agreeing with him.

      If you quote something and do not argue against it, you are siding with the quoted material.

    63. Re:Radicalization by interkin3tic · · Score: 4, Informative

      I did some quick googling, I'm sure there is controversy over some of these numbers:

      Number of Knesset members: 120
      Number of current Arab Knesset members: 12 or 10%
      Number of Israelis: 8 million
      Number of Palestinians: 4.4 million

      Given that Israel rules Palestine, that really doesn't meet my definition of democracy. As an American I'm sure I'd have problems with an Islamic Israel, but we tell ourselves we value democracy and freedom above all else. Furthermore, I can't imagine the current course will end up better.

    64. Re:Radicalization by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Everyone can say whatever they want, but this much is worth repeating: If Hamas, etc., disarmed, there would be peace. If Israel disarmed, they would be utterly destroyed.

      Note that the "peace" on offer here would involve the Palestinians sitting around in their prison camp watching settlers continue to steal more of their land. While Hamas is no bastion of democracy, it is understandable that the Palestinians might be a wee bit unhappy about this state of affairs.

    65. Re:Radicalization by cheesybagel · · Score: 2

      He was just pointing out that having a token muslim minority in the Knesset doesn't mean squat in practice.

    66. Re:Radicalization by ConceptJunkie · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Your rhetoric would carry a little more weight if there hadn't been a systematic attempt to destroy Israel since the year it was formed by the UN.

      If your neighbor is constantly firing rockets into your country, targeting civilians, you might see things a little differently. If the Palestinians didn't have weapons, there would be peace. If Israel didn't have weapons, there would be no Israel. The "annexed" territory was land captured as the result of war of aggression started against Israel. In any other situation, people would recognize this, but it seems that anti-semitism is still deeply ingrained in the popular consciousness, especially on the Left.

      Regardless of whether they sometimes go over the line in defending themselves, there's no denying that this situation was not started by and is not perpetuated by Israel. The "Palestinian" problem would disappear overnight if one of the many Muslim countries in the area would allow them to relocate. Israel didn't create itself. It was created by the UN, one of the very few useful things the UN ever did, and has fought several wars initiated by neighbors to defend its territory. But no one ever seems to care that the country is surrounded by a large number of people who are dedicated to its annihilation and the world seems to put people with this intent on the same moral level as a people who are simply trying to maintain their security. It's kind of hard to negotiate in good faith with people whose charter declares that their goal is to drive you into the sea.

      The real "Palestinian" problem is that the Palestinians are pawns in a propaganda war against the Jewish people, and the world has been falling for this transparent trick for 70 years.

      --
      You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike.
    67. Re:Radicalization by sumdumass · · Score: 2

      So what you are saying is either let them kill you or more people will try to kill you?

      That seems to be the jist of the "but they will haye you if you do not let them get thier way" argument. So what will happen is that everyone will become an enemy and everyone will get killed. Sounds like eventually someone is going to say kill them all and let god sort it out. Hopefully, a rash of common sence breaks out and it ends before someone actually tries to do just that.

    68. Re:Radicalization by NoNonAlphaCharsHere · · Score: 2

      What a load of contemptible, ignorant, anti-Semitic bullshit.

      Criticizing Israel's actions is no more anti-Semitic than criticizing an African nation's actions is racist. You sound like the people who claim "racism" every time somebody says something negative about Obama.

      These shitheads brought this all down on themselves. But the defective Muslim mind...

      LOLOLOL

      "These [Jew] shitheads brought this all down on themselves. But the defective Jew mind..."
      Now that would be anti-Semitic.

    69. Re:Radicalization by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 2

      Yet in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank, almost those 4.4 million people are under Palestinian civil administration, while only about 0.1 million people in the West Bank are in the Israeli civil administration. Perhaps the Israeli have an undue influence over a part of the West Bank, what with their security operations there, but claiming that "Israel rules Palestine" seems rather overblown. I might as well claim that the US rules Iraq and Afghanistan.

      --
      Ezekiel 23:20
    70. Re:Radicalization by Plumpaquatsch · · Score: 2

      Yet in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank, almost those 4.4 million people are under Palestinian civil administration, while only about 0.1 million people in the West Bank are in the Israeli civil administration. Perhaps the Israeli have an undue influence over a part of the West Bank, what with their security operations there, but claiming that "Israel rules Palestine" seems rather overblown. I might as well claim that the US rules Iraq and Afghanistan.

      Yeah, and Vichy France was a completely independent state.

      --
      Of course news about a fake are Fake News.
    71. Re:Radicalization by NoNonAlphaCharsHere · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I'm old enough to remember Nasser and the 7-day war, and Israel's 1982 invasion of Lebanon and the resulting mess it caused, even to this day. For forty years I've been shaking my head at Israeli intransigence. Eventually, maybe someone will come forward in Israel who realizes that "give us everything WE want up front, and then we'd perhaps be willing to sit down and talk about and maybe even consider what YOU want" isn't really an effective first-offer negotiating position.

      I will cheerfully admit that Israel has a right to exist, and to defend itself. However, it seems that every time they "go over the line defending themselves" they end up occupying territory that didn't formerly belong to them, and never leaving, which only further exacerbates an already powder-keg situation.

      I'll also cheerfully admit that everyone in that part of the world is fucking nuts, driven by religious extremism and centuries-old resentments, and completely immune to reason or compromise.

      The real "Israeli" problem is the propaganda war that conflates the Israeli government and the Jewish people, and the world has been falling for this transparent trick for 70 years.

    72. Re:Radicalization by NoKaOi · · Score: 3, Informative

      Out of 290 seats the Iranian parliament have 3 Jewish, 4 Catholic and another 7 occupied by non-muslim minorities. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I...

      That beats the US congress, which has only 2 muslims and 3 buddhists.

    73. Re:Radicalization by interkin3tic · · Score: 3, Informative

      "Undue influence" is quite an understatement. Israel doesn't allow Palestinians to leave, and prevents anyone it can from entering. They're not allowed to import anything aside from life-sustaining rations Israel approves of. Israel did all it could to prevent Palestinians from voting for who they wanted to in their own elections. They're not allowed to have an army. Israel encourages extremists to take Palestinian territory with force. On top of that, Israel is attacking Palestine in an extremely one-sided conflict.

      Aside from the freedom to reproduce, there doesn't seem to be much that Israel doesn't attempt to control about Palestinian life.

    74. Re:Radicalization by Darinbob · · Score: 2

      If Israel stopped building settlements, and actually tore down settlements, then there would be a peace process. It is illogical and idiotic to continue building settlements and refusing to stop until there is a finalized peace deal, when one of the primary points of contention is to back out entirely from West Bank. Hamas can be left marginlized easily, the damage they do to Israel is miniscule compared to the damage Israel is doing to Gaza and West Bank.

      Look it's not that hard: if someone is using a human shield, then stop firing. Why kill 50 innocent people to stop 1 innocent person from being killed? One Israeli life is exactly equal to one Palestinean life.

    75. Re:Radicalization by joocemann · · Score: 5, Insightful

      What you mean is that Israel doesn't consider what is 'currently' Gaza to be its own terriitory -- but that its own territory expands inch by inch at the crest of a bulldozer, and that any 'living beings' within that expansion ought to move to Gaza or die. Is that what you mean?

      Lets at least keep reality on the table here.

    76. Re:Radicalization by AK+Marc · · Score: 2

      I don't bother to follow that mess. There's nothing I can do about it, so it's pointless to try. But, in response to your accusations, I looked and found nothing that supported the story.

      Your quote confirms that Hamas used the school as a human shield, deliberately firing from there, which those near knew. But rather than evacuate, they stayed at the launch site for an attack on Israel. Why? Oh, Hamas refused them passage to safety. Hamas kidnapped them for human shields. And Israel is in the wrong for hitting Hamas back, because Hamas had kidnapped human shields still on site.

      Yes, all Israel's fault.

    77. Re:Radicalization by DutchUncle · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Do you also remember Nasser saying things like “Our basic objective will be the destruction of Israel." and "We will not accept any coexistence with Israel" and ordering the UN peacekeepers out of the way? And moving troops and tanks up to Israel's southern border?

      Let's imagine your neighbor spends his days sitting on his porch steps, polishing his guns and cursing at you and your family every time he sees you. Well, that's his right, free speech, his property, yadda yadda. Then he starts pointing his gun at you and your family while he talks about how much he'd like to kill all of you. In the US there should be *some* kind of civil action one could take, but countries don't answer to policemen, so let's assume you can't call anyone. How tenable would you find this situation?

    78. Re:Radicalization by Darinbob · · Score: 3, Insightful

      No I am not encouraging people to use hostages as shields. I am encouraging people to not shoot through the hostages to get to the bad guy behind them.

      Imagine if Hamas was shooting rockets from within an Israeli home or hospital, do you think the Israeli army would be so quick to bomb it? So why then is it ok to bomb a Palestinean home or hospital, is it because those hostages are not considered as valuable?

  2. This might actually kill more than the bombs by i+kan+reed · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Depending on just how freshwater is distributed in Gaza, and the infrastructure demands it has, this could mean a lot more heat exhaustion, and water-borne infection related deaths.

    Even a smallish percentage of people being affected is a huge number of people dying in a high temperature densely packed urban environment.

    1. Re:This might actually kill more than the bombs by timrod · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It will also likely cause the bombs to kill more people. A lack of power will cause people to leave their homes and try to find somewhere that has clean water or air conditioning, which means a higher density of people packed into a smaller area. This means higher death counts when Israeli missiles inevitably hit another civilian area, as they've been doing since the start of this war.

    2. Re:This might actually kill more than the bombs by i+kan+reed · · Score: 2

      There have been relatively few wars where the increased risk of disease wasn't the primary killer. WWII, Korea, Iraq I, maybe Vietnam(I don't know much about the stats on the Vietcong side).

      Even recent wars like Iraq II has a lot of evidence that this kind of infrastructure damage killed hundreds of thousands.

    3. Re: This might actually kill more than the bombs by SJester · · Score: 4, Insightful

      No, a war crime is intentionally targeting a civilian population, such as launching explosives at population centers. It is not a war crime to strike at a launch site or munitions depot. I'm not sure if it's a war crime to establish that site or depot inside a school (twice so far according to the UN, who is not exactly motivated to care), or inside a mosque (once, to my knowledge) or inside a home (dozens of them.) But when you need to stop the war crimes and destroy a launch site, what do you do to limit civilian casualties? Warn them every way possible and then limit fire, which is precisely what Israel has done. What Hamas has done in turn is herd civilians into the line of fire. Should Israel hold their fire? Are they obligated to shelter Hamas' civilians in addition to their own? You're welcome to dispute this. There is ample footage of Israeli warnings followed by civilians crowding the rooftops. Just as there is footage of gunmen turning fleeing civilians back into targeted areas, and two UN reports prior to this war of Hamas using child labor (160 dead) to dig their tunnels. This is not Dresden. Realize that this is what war looks like when when side uses restraint but must proceed, and the other side caulks the gaps with bodies.

    4. Re: This might actually kill more than the bombs by ericloewe · · Score: 2

      Of course it's a war crime to use schools, hospitals, places of worship and similar public places as weapons stores or launching sites.

  3. Re:Terrorism by i+kan+reed · · Score: 2

    In a word: no. Terrorism is almost definitionally non-government organizations engaged in violence to effect political change.

    When governments do it, we call it various other things based on our own perspective of the situation: war, policing, tyranny, among others.

  4. Nuke those terrorists by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Do you propose that all concentration camps should be nuked? Gaza is a concentration camp. Until Israel gives all it's citizens equal voting rights, it is nothing more than one of earths most ugly prisons*.

    * What does that make the Israelis?

  5. Israel lied about bombing the UN school. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Israel targeted the school deliberately, says it was warned after the fact *(It wasn't.) Then blamed Hamas. Now we know the truth, days later.

    The question is will the US continue to veto UN action to hold this rogue terrorist state to task?

  6. Don't allow missils to be fired... by EzInKy · · Score: 4, Insightful

    ...from your territitory and chances are good that you won't get missles fired back at you. Sign a document to that effect and you will most likely have peace.

    --
    Time is what keeps everything from happening all at once.
    1. Re:Don't allow missils to be fired... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

      ...from your territitory and chances are good that you won't get missles fired back at you. Sign a document to that effect and you will most likely have peace.

      Ah yes, "peace" like they have in the West Bank where there are 0 missiles fired, yet they still manage to kill a few Palestinians per week. Peace to Israel is no resistence to their land grab.

    2. Re:Don't allow missils to be fired... by Wahakalaka · · Score: 2

      The issue at this point is the blockade slowly strangling Gaza. A "ceasefire" that doesn't address the blockade is useless to Gaza.

      --
      The truth is somewhere in the middle.
    3. Re:Don't allow missils to be fired... by silas_moeckel · · Score: 4, Insightful

      That is the point of the blockade isn't it? Getting Gaza to capitulate and figure out it does not hold the upper hand. They are perfectly capable of leveling Gaza and frankly have more than enough reason to do so. They want a neighbor that will not attack them and will work aggressively to stop terrorist from doing the same. The Gazans are free to elect somebody that is willing to and can do just that or hit there current people with enough cluebats to make it happen.

      --
      No sir I dont like it.
  7. Re:Terrorism by i+kan+reed · · Score: 2

    Obviously we do. Is there some magical threshold of people calling out wrongdoings that would be sufficient for you?

    I hate how ambiguous this kind of assertion is. As if there was some unspecified "they" keeping us from discussing it. I've been called an anti-semite for condemning this kind of bombing before, but that just represents one more thing that particular person was wrong about.

  8. Like So Many of Humanity's Woes by Greyfox · · Score: 3, Interesting

    This one seems to be caused by a tiny percentage of assholes on both sides. Peace will never be in the assholes' best interest as it will reduce the amount of control the assholes have over their populations. Dozens of times during my lifetime peace has been within reach, only to be shattered by some asshole on one side or the other. Until such time as leaders arise on both sides who are interested and committed to a peaceful solution, this situation will not change.

    --

    I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?

  9. Re: Nuke those terrorists by NoImNotNineVolt · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I can see how the people of Gaza could think so.

    They see Israel as an outside force that periodically comes through town to kill everyone. They see Hamas as the only party willing and able to answer Israel's violence with some Palestinian violence. Whether or not that view of the situation accurately corresponds to reality is irrelevant; the fact of the matter is, the people of Gaza feel that in the current climate, Hamas represents their interests better than any of the other options.

    Until the Israeli administration can find a way to change that perception (hint: continuation of the violence, marginalization, and blockage is unlikely to accomplish that goal), I expect continued support of Hamas and a continuation of desperate rocket attacks on Israel.

    --
    Chuuch. Preach. Tabernacle.
  10. Re: Nuke those terrorists by NoImNotNineVolt · · Score: 5, Informative

    Also, I should point out that they (the people of Gaza) don't have voting rights. They used to. They voted in Hamas in free and fair elections. Of course, after Hamas consolidated power, they suspended further elections indefinitely. Hamas still enjoys widespread popular support in Gaza, but they'd be in power regardless, since elections are no longer held and there is no longer any democratic means of removing them from power.

    --
    Chuuch. Preach. Tabernacle.
  11. Re:Hamas Is 100 Percent of the Problem by Thanshin · · Score: 5, Funny

    So... you're on the fence about which side to blame.

  12. Re: Nuke those terrorists by Danathar · · Score: 4, Insightful

    One person, one vote, one time

  13. Re: Nuke those terrorists by AchilleTalon · · Score: 2
    Hence your conclusion in your first post is false since there is no mean to verify in a democratic ballot if

    "the people of Gaza feel that in the current climate, Hamas represents their interests better than any of the other options."

    --
    Achille Talon
    Hop!
  14. Please Explain This Crap by Guy+From+V · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Please, someone explain to me how seemingly rational and normal people who seem to have it all together and seemingly hold a good sum of beliefs that can be called measured and critical can demonize Israel for defending themselves...in an amazingly measured manner I must say...in a lion's den of homicidal and genocidal area of the world against a people who will accept nothing but their destruction (it's in their charter or something) when all these other dudes (who happen to be a designated terrorist organization) by NATO..I think, at least by the US)...and.... ...you know what, fuck it. People who complain about Israel and make martyrs out of HAMAS are truly fucking deluded or stupid.

    1. Re:Please Explain This Crap by Himmy32 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If you read this thread, there is rarely support for Hamas. But not that doesn't sanction the killing of children or shelling schools by Israel. The citizens there can't leave basic necessities like concrete to build houses or basic foodstuffs like fruit are blockaded.

      People have the right to complain about abuses on both sides. Either way the only things coming out of the current conflict right now is suffering of innocent children. Both sides should be ashamed.

  15. Re:Hamas Is 100 Percent of the Problem by Richard_at_work · · Score: 2, Informative

    You realise that those rockets Hamas has it was probably getting for free, and those tunnels it built were actually the main way to get food and supplies into Gaza due to Israels blockade on imports, as they limited total food shipments to just 136 truck loads a day, for the entire Gaza population of 1.8million...

    Hamas are far from blameless, but they also aren't anywhere near 100% of the problem.

  16. Likely an accident by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The irony is that early in this round of fighting rockets fired by Hamas into Israel hit power equipment in Israel used to supply power to Gaza knocking out power to tens of thousands in Gaza - a self inflicted goal on the part of Hamas. the Israelis promptly fixed it restoring power to tens of thousands of people in Gaza. I doubt that most people are aware in the first place that Israelsuppliez much of the power to Gaza or that the Palestinian governing authorities are perpetually behind in their payments for the power but despite that the Israelis don't turn off the power.

    Anyway, I wouldn't read much into this story, it was probably a stray shell that caused the problem. In the this as in all other things, the Israelis are grossly inefficient at harming civilians and civilian infrastructure. If the wanted to harm civilians they would follow the lead of Syria, who has managed to kill more civilians in couple of years than soldiers and civilians that the Israelis have managed to kill in 65 years.

    Incidentally the NYT reported yesterday that the civilian death toll in Ukraine has now reached 800 - if you add the 300+ Ukrainian army deaths plus the unknown number of rebel dead it is greater than the death toll in Gaza. Now comes news of 20 more civilian dead overnight including 5 elderly when an old age home was hit by shells fired by the Ukrainian army.

  17. Blame Islam, not Israel by bhlowe · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Trying to blame Israel for very real world-wide problem of Muslim-on-neighbor violence is missing the root cause. The Palestinians and most Muslims have been taught from age zero to hate the Jews because of the lunatic ravings of their "prophet." Their Qur'an is filled with war tactics and how to treat the enemy, which is everyone who doesn't believe in their god. And the vast majority of Muslims believe in Sharia law that enforces these barbaric 8th century laws. Browse thereligionofpeace.com for a few insights into the real source of the problem.

  18. Re:Hamas Is 100 Percent of the Problem by NoImNotNineVolt · · Score: 3, Insightful

    terror tunnels

    Rush, is that you?

    How do you distinguish a "terror tunnel" from the many tunnels used to smuggle food, clothing, potable water, and basic construction materials?

    --
    Chuuch. Preach. Tabernacle.
  19. Re: Nuke those terrorists by NoImNotNineVolt · · Score: 2

    Perhaps, if voting were the only way to establish whether or not popular support exists. Thankfully enough, some geniuses back in the day thought up this crazy idea called a non-binding "poll". Think of it as an election, but the results aren't used for anything other than publication.

    Of course, even simple polls won't accurately gauge popular support for Hamas. Many external factors are at play here. For example, Hamas' popularity recently plummeted in a very serious way. Why? Because they stopped paying their employees (civil servants, military, etc.). Why did they stop paying them? Well, it's complicated, and I concede that I myself don't understand all the details. However, it seems that it has something to do with the recent formation of a Hamas-Fatah unity government and Israel's feelings towards Hamas. Let's just say that Fatah government workers are still getting paid, but Hamas workers' pay is suspended until they are vetted. Of course, people don't like when their paychecks stop coming it, so I'm not surprised to see a significant dive in their popularity ratings. However, it can be argued that this is the direct result of Israeli meddling in Palestinian affairs, specifically with the intent of weakening Hamas' popularity. In that context, it's not clear that Hamas is any less loved today than before the paychecks stopped.

    Anyway, anyone with even cursory familiarity with Gaza agrees. Even Palestinians who oppose the brand of violent resistance espoused by Hamas sympathize with the movement. Israel's manipulation of the situation may cost Hamas some popularity, but it has no meaningful effect on popular support for violence against the state of Israel, which is at the core of Hamas philosophy.

    --
    Chuuch. Preach. Tabernacle.
  20. Re:No innocents here by HateBreeder · · Score: 2, Informative

    The people in Gaza are not Israeli citizens.
    Israel does not control the civilian population in Gaza since it withdrew out of the Gaza strip in 2005.

    Since I'm sure you'll mention the naval blockade, So for your information, the blockade was enacted in June 2007, when the Palestinians elected a terrorist organization (Hamas) to lead them, and started firing rockets in to Israel.

    Btw, right after their election, Hamas eradicated PLO members from the Gaza strip (which were *relatively* moderate muslims), through a series of violent clashes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F...

    --
    Sigs are for the weak.
  21. Re:Nuke those terrorists by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Why doesn't Israel just nuke that shithole?

    Dude, because that's NOT how Israel works, nor would it serve their purposes. Dispute what you hear from the press, Israel is actually being very measured in their response and has gone to great lengths to avoid civilian casualties. Just nuking Gaza would not be consistent with what they are trying to do.

  22. No innocent governments here by sjbe · · Score: 2

    Hamas started it and reuses to agree to any proposed cease fire.

    Doesn't matter who started it. That's an argument that children make to justify their own bad behavior. There is no innocent party here.

    Israel isn't the group calling for the extermination, Hamas is.

    Israel has turned Gaza into a large open air prison. Many people in Gaza are innocent of any criminal action and yet they are made to suffer along with the terrorists. Israel will not give any voice in government to anyone who is not Jewish. Israel is not remotely being a fair minded party here. They conquered this territory and haven't done a good job of winning hearts and minds. They aren't going to convince the extremists but they could have convinced the more reasonable people to deal with the extremists. There is no evidence I can see that this was ever tried with any serious intent.

    Israel has also offered legitimacy to the Palestinian government in exchange for a cease fire and removing the language in the charter to kill all jews.

    Hamas is not the Palestinian government. Neither is Fatah which is the other major political group involved. They are roughly akin to political parties with a percentage of their membership (particularly Hamas) who are radical. There are extremists in the Israeli government too and they keep provoking the Palestinians even when it is clearly not a good idea. Neither side is listening to what the other cares about and neither has been willing to do what it will take to bring peace.

  23. Re:sigh. bailing wire? by __aaeihw9960 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    If it's oiled wire, stored in oiled paper, it's actually meant for concrete work with re-bar, but is actually used most often to string low-charge electric fences. It is commonly used with horses in conjunction with white, vinyl warning fence. You get anywhere from 50-200 feet per spool.

    Baling wire is substantially thicker, un-oiled, and comes in much larger spools; 500-1000 feet per spool.

    The spools in oil paper are meant to be strung by hand and not intended to be used for tying anything long-term; hence the lighter gauge. In fact, it's meant to hold re-bar together long enough for the concrete to be poured, thereby securing the re-bar and negating the need for the wire. Baling wire is intended to be strung by machine, and exists mainly to tie things together for seasons (and hold together the entire Midwest's infrastructure). Square bales that use baling wire must be stored out of the elements, so the wire being un-oiled is not an issue.

    To the GP: If you use baling twine, then your machinery sucks, sell that P.O.S. Oliver and buy something made in the last fifty years. I bet you run narrow base Allis-Chalmers too, don't you?

  24. Bullets will not win this conflict by sjbe · · Score: 3, Informative

    The people in Gaza are not Israeli citizens.

    And yet Israel insists on controlling the territory. They may not get a vote but they ARE Israeli citizens until such time as Israel actually stops trying to control their political processes and truly leaves. Israel conquered the territory, they control what goes in or out and they fairly regularly send their military in. Even the maps show Gaza as a part of Israel. What they have done is to conquer a territory full of people who don't like Israel and never made a secret of that and then treated them badly for a long time. Shocking why things have gone badly.

    Since I'm sure you'll mention the naval blockade, So for your information, the blockade was enacted in June 2007, when the Palestinians elected a terrorist organization (Hamas) to lead them, and started firing rockets in to Israel. Btw, right after their election, Hamas eradicated PLO members from the Gaza strip (which were *relatively* moderate muslims), through a series of violent clashes.

    Yep, both sides are doing all sorts of evil things to each other. That's what happens in a civil war. Ever consider that a big part of the reason Hamas has such a large voice is because of the decades of stupid decisions by Israel? I totally get that Israel is a bit touchy given that they are surrounded by neighboring nations who have to put it mildly been quite hostile. But this is a conflict that will NEVER be won with bullets or walls. It will be won with cooperation and discussion and genuine caring about others.

  25. 1,000+ a questionable figure by Jodka · · Score: 3, Informative

    Over at the Wall Street Journal Bret Stephens questions the claim that as many as 1,023 Palestinian lives have been lost in the conflict. The column is paywalled but can be accessed for free via the WSJ Opinion Facebook Page.

    Consider the media obsession with the body count. According to a daily tally in the New York Times, NYT -6.42% as of July 27 the war in Gaza had claimed 1,023 Palestinian lives as against 46 Israelis. How does the Times keep such an accurate count of Palestinian deaths? A footnote discloses "Palestinian death tallies are provided by the Palestinian Health Ministry and the United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs."

    OK. So who runs the Palestinian Health Ministry in Gaza? Hamas does. As for the U.N., it gets its data mainly from two Palestinian agitprop NGOs, one of which, the Palestinian Center for Human Rights, offers the remarkably precise statistic that, as of July 27, exactly 82% of deaths in Gaza have been civilians. Curiously, during the 2008-09 Gaza war, the center also reported an 82% civilian casualty rate.

    When minutely exact statistics are provided in chaotic circumstances, it suggests the statistics are garbage. When a news organization relies—without clarification—on data provided by a bureaucratic organ of a terrorist organization, there's something wrong there, too.

    --
    Ceci n'est pas une signature.
  26. Five Israeli Talking Points on Gaza - Debunked by Jeremiah+Cornelius · · Score: 5, Informative

    Israel claims that it is merely exercising its right to self-defense and that Gaza is no longer occupied. Here’s what you need to know about these talking points and more.

    Israel has killed almost 800 Palestinians in the past twenty-one days in the Gaza Strip alone; its onslaught continues. The UN estimates that more than 74 percent of those killed are civilians. That is to be expected in a population of 1.8 million where the number of Hamas members is approximately 15,000. Israel does not deny that it killed those Palestinians using modern aerial technology and precise weaponry courtesy of the world’s only superpower. In fact, it does not even deny that they are civilians.

    Israel’s propaganda machine, however, insists that these Palestinians wanted to die (“culture of martyrdom”), staged their own death (“telegenically dead”) or were the tragic victims of Hamas’s use of civilian infrastructure for military purposes (“human shielding”). In all instances, the military power is blaming the victims for their own deaths, accusing them of devaluing life and attributing this disregard to cultural bankruptcy. In effect, Israel—along with uncritical mainstream media that unquestionably accept this discourse—dehumanizes Palestinians, deprives them even of their victimhood and legitimizes egregious human rights and legal violations.

    This is not the first time. The gruesome images of decapitated children’s bodies and stolen innocence on Gaza’s shores are a dreadful repeat of Israel’s assault on Gaza in November 2012 and winter 2008–09. Not only are the military tactics the same but so too are the public relations efforts and the faulty legal arguments that underpin the attacks. Mainstream media news anchors are inexplicably accepting these arguments as fact.

    Below I address five of Israel’s recurring talking points. I hope this proves useful to newsmakers.

    1) Israel is exercising its right to self-defense.

    As the occupying power of the Gaza Strip, and the Palestinian Territories more broadly, Israel has an obligation and a duty to protect the civilians under its occupation. It governs by military and law enforcement authority to maintain order, protect itself and protect the civilian population under its occupation. It cannot simultaneously occupy the territory, thus usurping the self-governing powers that would otherwise belong to Palestinians, and declare war upon them. These contradictory policies (occupying a land and then declaring war on it) make the Palestinian population doubly vulnerable.

    The precarious and unstable conditions in the Gaza Strip from which Palestinians suffer are Israel’s responsibility. Israel argues that it can invoke the right to self-defense under international law as defined in Article 51 of the UN Charter. The International Court of Justice, however, rejected this faulty legal interpretation in its 2004 Advisory Opinion. The ICJ explained that an armed attack that would trigger Article 51 must be attributable to a sovereign state, but the armed attacks by Palestinians emerge from within Israel’s jurisdictional control. Israel does have the right to

    --
    "Flyin' in just a sweet place,
    Never been known to fail..."
  27. Re:Hamas Is 100 Percent of the Problem by benjfowler · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The (very Muslim) Egypt is also blockading Gaza.

    Explain that away, smartarse.

  28. child casualties by Mr+44 · · Score: 4, Informative

    If you are curious why so many children are killed in Gaza, look at this footage:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

    1. Re:child casualties by DRJlaw · · Score: 2

      Can someone explain what is happening in that video? I see some children, and an old guy ducking down below then, and someone setting up some piece of equipment I don't recognize. Call me naive, call me stupid, whatever: but seriously, please explain.

      The kindhearted individual in the front at 0:08 drops a sizable mortar down a mortar tube and runs for the hills. The next :20 consist of the children and old guy waiting for the mortar to drop the length of the tube and the time delay fuse to expire. At 0:28 the mortar fires, apparently correctly, launching the mortar in the general direction of the kindhearted individual's target.

      Of course, if the mortar fired incorrectly or exploded within the tube, that clearly visible collection of children would likely be within the shrapnel zone. Funny how the old guy appears to be keeping them there.

      Also of course, if you want to destory the mortar, you're faced the with small problem that you have children gathered within the blast radius of your tank shell, opposing mortar, guided demolition unit (a.k.a air-dropped bomb), or the like.

      So that would be what's happening in that video.

      The set up and take-down time for that mortar system are also substantially longer than the recorded :30.

  29. Homosexuals and marriage: ability vs. right by mi · · Score: 2

    The guy in the wheelchair may be deprived of his ability to practice karate, but its not because his fellow citizens are campaigning and voting to keep him from doing it.

    Nobody is campaigning to keep the homosexuals unable to marry — they are unable to do so already. Not because they have no right — only because they have no ability.

    --
    In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
  30. Misleading summary missing key facts by phozz+bare · · Score: 5, Informative

    Several important facts are missing from the summary. The only correct one is that, yes, Gaza's only power plant has been attacked.

    However:
    1. The effect of this power plant being out of commission is relatively minor. Gaza receives most of its electricity (and water), whether in war or peace, from, guess who - Israel. And no, they don't pay their bills (their debt is around $500 million). In fact the bizarre and twisted reality in the Middle East today is that the Israeli taxpayer is funding electricity for the enemy's rocket manufacturers.
    2. The Israeli army has denied firing anywhere near the power plant and there is a high probability that the attack was a misfired Hamas rocket or mortar bomb, similar to other recent cases where Hamas rockets have killed Gazans.
    3. About 50,000 Gazans have already been in a blackout for a couple of weeks since a Hamas rocket fell near one of the power lines supplying Gaza with electricity from Israel. The Israeli Electric Company will not risk its technicians' lives to repair this line while under enemy fire, thank you very much.

  31. Re:Nuke those terrorists by P-niiice · · Score: 2

    it would be more like New Jersey nuking its jail if the jail were 99% full of innocent people who happened to live on the property before the jail was built

  32. I find it interesting by msobkow · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I find it interesting that pretty much all posts in support of the Gazans have been moderated down, yet there seem to be an awful lot of such posts. There's nothing like censorship by the mods to ensure that all viewpoints aren't heard equally. So with the expectation of being moderated down...

    Israel likes to claim they're targetting Hamas installations. Yet if that's the case, each of those installations they've targetted has only launched an average of less than two rockets at Israel, when you consider the number of rockets Israel claims have been launched vs. the number of sites they've targetted.

    It seems to me rather highly unlikely that Hamas has actually got *that* many rocket launchers, considering they have to be smuggled in.

    Another common thread is the "terror tunnels." Don't forget that Gaza is isolated and has to smuggle in supplies. There is no way to tell whether a tunnel was being used for smuggling goods in or attackers out, but given that there have only been *two* reports of Hamas sending attackers through the tunnels, I think it's safe to say that those tunnels were being used primarily to smuggle in goods.

    Well over a 1000 Gazans have been killed, the vast majority civilians. In the meantime, only 3 Israeli civilians have been killed. As to the soldiers on both sides, I *expect* them to die -- they're in battle. I've no sympathy for dead soldiers on either side.

    I don't see how anyone can take a "moderate" stance on the issue. Israel invaded Palestine. Israel destroys Gazan homes to make room for settlements in violation of the Geneva conventions. Israel targets civilian infrastructure. Israel has tanks, planes, missiles, and gun emplacements; the Gazans have some pretty-much-useless rocket launchers that don't do any damage to Israeli infrastructure.

    The Gazans are walled in, have no where to escape to, and are, for the most part, just civilians trying to survive. Bleat as they will about "self defence", I don't buy the Israeli arguments for this violent and genocidal assault on the civilians of Gaza. Not one bit.

    --
    I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
  33. Re:Hamas Is 100 Percent of the Problem by NoImNotNineVolt · · Score: 2
    I appreciate your link, but I don't have a subscription to your preferred right-wing media outlet. Let me guess.... the article you link to details how every tunnel they've found contains a strictly audited log of past use which conclusively demonstrates your point? No? Oh. It mentions that one of the many uses of some of these tunnels was to aid in the resistance against the Israeli onslaught? Well then, sure, "terror".

    Here's a link for you, to Rush Limbaugh's site. Oh wait my bad, I mean a link to the New York Times. That's a notorious right-wing propaganda site, right?

    You jest, but the commie pinko hippie liberal rag known as the New York Times just came out in support of legalization of cannabis. After a few states already legalized. After a majority of the country has come out in favor of legalization. Forgive me for considering the NYT to be a right-wing medium.

    It all comes back round to Hamas.

    Or, conversely, it all comes back round to Israel. It's Israel that's enforcing the blockade. It's Israel that's killing Palestinian civilians. Yes, it sucks to be a Jew in southern Israel, and the rocket attacks make it worse, but the rocket attacks are because of the attacks from Israel. It sucks to have rockets raining down on civilians, but those are because Israel prevents Hamas from acquiring more sophisticated weaponry capable of being targeted.

    Sometimes I wonder why Israel doesn't just bomb everything in Gaza flat and kill everyone.

    Sometimes I too wonder why Israel doesn't take a page out of the Nazi playbook and just go full-out holocaust on the Palestinians. Then I remember what happened to Hitler.

    But let me return to something you said that I found interesting...

    That tunnel is there to kidnap Israelis, and the purpose of the kidnapping is terror.

    Perhaps. Much like the purpose of the IDF is to kill Palestinians, and the purpose of the killing is terror. Or perhaps we can be reasonable people and acknowledge that these tunnels have been being used to smuggle essential supplies ever since the Israeli-Egyptian blockade was put into place, and that the IDF actions are intended to stop, prevent, or deter Hamas' violent ambitions.

    Nah, that wouldn't fit in with your "we're right, they're wrong" mindset. Worse still, such dangerously reasonable lines of thought might lead to a peaceful agreement between the two warring parties. The horror.

    --
    Chuuch. Preach. Tabernacle.
  34. Re: Nuke those terrorists by NoImNotNineVolt · · Score: 3, Insightful

    And yet somehow they cannot make the connection that the rockets that Hamas shoots into Israel by the hundreds brings that Israeli destruction to them.

    Indeed, this is amusing. As amusing as the fact that Israel cannot make the connection that the destruction Israel brings to Gaza (along with the blockade, along with the refusal to recognize sovereignty, etc) is the reason (are the reasons?) Hamas shoots rockets into Israel.

    I find it odd that Anti-Israel propagandists seem to expect that being under constant fire should not bring any reprisal.

    I find it odd that Anti-Arab propagandists seem to expect that continued flaunting of international law and marginalization of a powerless people should not bring any reprisal. Face the facts. Israelis are a bloodthirsty lot. Just look at the frequency with which they initiate armed conflict with nearly any neighboring state. I'd compare numbers with your ISIS stats, but I'm afraid that Gaza is a tiny fraction of the size of the territory ISIS is operating in. If we looked at number of dead per day per square mile, you wouldn't be quite so quick to encourage these comparisons.

    Also, thank you for appointing me an Anti-Israel propagandist. I hear dismissing people outright is a great way of winning them over in rational debate.

    --
    Chuuch. Preach. Tabernacle.
  35. Re: Nuke those terrorists by NoImNotNineVolt · · Score: 2

    So it seems that you've linked me to a page of Palestinian rocket attacks on Israel, 2014.

    If you recall, I asked for you to point out Hamas' aggression. According to the link you provided, July 7 was the first time Hamas fired any rockets at Israel in 2014. According to my calendar, July 7 falls after July 2, which is when Israeli Jews kidnapped and burned alive the Palestinian teenager Mohammed Abu Khdeir.

    Your turn.

    --
    Chuuch. Preach. Tabernacle.
  36. Don't let the facts get in your way by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Hamas is intentionally targeting civilians. It has publicly said so and (more importantly) done so for many decades now. They kidnap and murder Israeli civilians. They call for Israel's destruction without room for negotiation. There are plenty of video evidence proving this and on the other hand proving that Israel has aborted important military targets because of the presence of civilians. Hamas has released numerous videos praising their people for acting as human shields. So don't take our word for it. Take *their* word for it.

    Your post simply shows how often international NGOs depend witnesses that later turn out to be Hamas members. NGOs have neither the time, funding or expertise to witness these events first-hand so they rely on Hamas members instead. When a rocket lands on a school and witnesses say it came from Israel, they don't have the necessary expertise to actually reach that conclusion. Hamas' own rockets have landed *inside* Gaza hundreds of times in the past two weeks. Do you honestly think none of these caused Gazan civilian deaths? And yet, the media hasn't reported once of such an event. Funny that, eh?

  37. Re: Nuke those terrorists by sycodon · · Score: 2

    Every nation has a right to defend itself...unless that nation is Israel. Then, these people expect them to just keep turning the other cheek.

    Funny, Obama and the rest of them called Afghanistan a Just War, which we launched in response to 9/11. So American can go to Afghanistan, half way around the world and fuck them up, but Israel needs to just keep absorbing the rockets.

    I see.

    --
    When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
  38. Ok: you have everything backwards. Everything. by Uberbah · · Score: 2

    The storyline put forth goes like so: this all started when Hamas kidnapped three teenagers and then killed them in June. Israel launched a search and rescue mission, and Hamas responded by firing rockets.

    But it's all bullshit. The month before the teens were kidnapped, the IDF straight up murdered two Palestinian boys in the street. And the month before that Israel tried to provoke Hamas by murdering one of its members the same night that Hamas and Fatah announced a unity agreement. The day before the kidnapping, Israel murdered a member of Hamas they accused of planning rocket attacks. Despite Israel's repeated violations of it's own cease fire agreement with Hamas, the latter did not respond in kind. Finally, not only had Hamas not fired any rockets since the last time Israel violated a cease fire in 2012, it had helped arrest those who had.

    But Bibi found the excuse he needed with the kidnappings of the three teenagers. Despite being pretty damned sure they were all dead - you can hear gunshots over one of the teens cell phones and the car was soon found full of blood and bullet casings - they spent weeks arresting Palestinians and bulldozing homes in Gaza for a kidnapping in the West Bank even after the Palestinian Authority was helping search for the missing teens. And even Israeli outlets admit that rockets were only fired in response to IDF attacks:

    At least 16 rockets were fired at Israel Monday morning, most of them hitting open areas in the Eshkol region, the army said. The security sources, who spoke on condition of anonymity, assessed that Hamas had probably launched the barrage in revenge for an Israeli airstrike several hours earlier which killed one person and injured three more.

    Since then, a thousand Palestinians have died, many of them children, for which the population equivalent would be over 200,000 people getting killed in the U.S. If anyone is defending themselves, it's Hamas defending the people of Gaza from racist Israeli provocation and aggression.

  39. Re: Nuke those terrorists by NoImNotNineVolt · · Score: 2

    You haven't provided any evidence that Hamas launched even a single rocket prior to the immolation of Mohammed Abu Khdeir.

    Anyway, in case you're having trouble with the timeline and/or the principle of causality:
    June 12, three Israeli teenage "settlers" are kidnapped and murdered in the West Bank while hitchhiking, probably by Palestinians.
    July 2, a Palestinian teenager in East Jerusalem is kidnapped and burned alive by Israelis.
    July 7, Hamas begins its retaliation, launching dozens (and subsequently hundreds) of rockets per day into Israel.
    July 8, large scale IDF assault on Gaza.

    The current situation (large scale IDF assault on Gaza) can be said to be the result of one of more of the following:
    Hamas' retaliatory rocket attacks.
    The abduction and immolation of Mohammed Abu Khdeir in East Jerusalem.
    The abduction and murder of three teenage Israeli settlers in the West Bank.

    Don't pretend that Hamas just woke up grumpy one day and decided to start firing off hundreds of rockets at Israel to pass the time.

    Also, regarding the discrepancy between Israel's handling of the crimes committed in Israel versus Fatah's handling of the crimes committed in the West Bank (yes, Fatah, not Hamas, because the settler teens were killed in the West Bank, not Gaza)... Perhaps you're not aware of this, but while the Israeli government actually has sovereignty over Israeli territory, Fatah unfortunately does not have sovereignty over the West Bank. Perhaps if Israel were to allow a real sovereign government to exist in the West Bank, they'd have the right to expect some sort of real governance there. Since that is currently not the case, I personally am not surprised to see that a weak pseudo-government is incapable of quality police work. Are you? Or are you now saying that the moderate Fatah government is intentionally interfering with the investigation? That would be quite the extraordinary claim, one not even made by the Israelis themselves.

    --
    Chuuch. Preach. Tabernacle.
  40. Re: Nuke those terrorists by Darinbob · · Score: 2

    You gotta look at the alternatives. Hamas was the group that appears to be less corrupt than Fatah, Fatah seemed to be cooperating with the enemy that bombs them periodically, Hamas provided some actual services in a region where no services existed. Thus out of the choices it was the best one for many of the voters. From the point of view of Palestineans, they are clearly at war and occupied by a foreign power with no rights granted to them, with homes and farms being taken away with no legal recourse allowed, and no opportunity available for peace to exist except if they become a subservient underclass.

    The problem here is that Israel doesn't see this. They seem to take the line that they will continue spanking the child until the child cheers up; the spanking may occasionally die down but will return at intervals just to remind the child who's in charge. There is still a politically powerful section of Israeli politics that believes all of Palestine is theirs, and they sabotage the peace processes just as much as Hamas does. I think many in Israel that spanking the child until it cheers up is a senseless policy but they don't have enough political power to make a change, or they think it's a bad idea but can't think of a better one.

    As far as your question, why not blame the Israelis for voting in such a hard line government? A stupid vote that ensures an ongoing conflict for another decade. If you don't see it that way, then that's because you're picking sides. You need to see both sides to be blamed, both sides at fault, both sides committing atrocities, both sides start up the fighting again whenever the peace lasts too long.

  41. Hamas also cut electricity by oldCoder · · Score: 2

    Several of the power lines bringing power in from Israel to Gaza were cut by Hamas rockets. Oh the irony!

    And Hamas is hundreds of millions of dollars behind in paying their power bill. I get cut off if I'm behind a few months. Hamas gets a better deal from Israel than I get from my power company. Life just ain't fair.

    --

    I18N == Intergalacticization