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Gaza's Only Power Plant Knocked Offline
necro81 (917438) writes "Gaza's only power plant (see this profile at IEEE Spectrum — duct tape and bailing wire not included) has been knocked offline following an Israeli strike. Reports vary, but it appears that Israeli tank shells caused a fuel bunker at the plant to explode. Gaza, already short on electricity despite imports from Israel and Egpyt, now faces widening blackouts."
Israel is sure doing a good job in that area creating more enemies, if that is their intention, the plan is working.
Depending on just how freshwater is distributed in Gaza, and the infrastructure demands it has, this could mean a lot more heat exhaustion, and water-borne infection related deaths.
Even a smallish percentage of people being affected is a huge number of people dying in a high temperature densely packed urban environment.
Isn't hitting civilian infrastructure terrorism?
Do you propose that all concentration camps should be nuked? Gaza is a concentration camp. Until Israel gives all it's citizens equal voting rights, it is nothing more than one of earths most ugly prisons*.
* What does that make the Israelis?
Israel targeted the school deliberately, says it was warned after the fact *(It wasn't.) Then blamed Hamas. Now we know the truth, days later.
The question is will the US continue to veto UN action to hold this rogue terrorist state to task?
...from your territitory and chances are good that you won't get missles fired back at you. Sign a document to that effect and you will most likely have peace.
Time is what keeps everything from happening all at once.
duct tape and bailing wire not included
bail: to clear of water by dipping (usually followed by out ): to bail out a boat
bale: to make (hay, etc) into a bale or bales
Try "baling". Also, try not using words you don't understand.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Hitler never removed its own citizens from their homes and turned over complete control of the land to the Jews, as Israel evacuated its own people in 2005 to ensure there were no soldiers and no Jews in gaza and no blockade. The blockade only began two years later when Hamas took over and began even more violence. The comparison between Israel
And hitler is beyond ludicrous.
You have to accept, as a critic of Israel, that some people who agree with you about their human rights violations will have shades of actual anti-antisemitism in their statements.
Whether they intend it or not varies, but it's definitely there sometimes. People have a hard time separating nationality, race, religion, and government in their heads. We're a primitive species, and it happens.
You've made the conflation of "Israelis" and "Israel", for example, while Israelis do vote for the government they have, many(not enough though) vote for people who don't want to perpetuate the cycle of violence.
Hint: not all Jews are Israelis, nor are all Israelis Jews. 75% of Israelis are Jews, and (doing math) only ~44.6% of Jews live in Israel.
Please don't confuse the two.
How's that working out for you.
Since 1948 the Palestinians have insisted on their right to resist. One has to ask,
"How's that working out for you"?
Seriously, how's that working out for you.
In 48 the UN partitioned the area between the Jews & the Arabs. The Jews accepted it and the Arabs did not. BTW the Arabs had more territory then the 67 borders. Of course the Arabs maintained their right to resist. From 48 to 67 the West Bank & Gaza was in Arab hands, but rather then create a country for their people the Arabs kept their people in Refugee camps to continue the Resistance. Again,
How did that work out for you?
After 67 there was an open offer of land for peace from Israel, but the Arabs maintained their right to resist.
How did that work out for you?
In 2005 the PA assured Israel that Gaza would be demilitarized. In 2007 Hamas took control of Gaza, killing hundreds of Fatah men, and maintained their right to resist.
How's that working out for you?
Maybe, just maybe, it's time to stop resisting and just start building you country. Look at what Israel did in that time. The Palestinian people, not their leaders, that I've known, have been smart, hardworking, industrious people, who, in my opinion, could give Israel a run for its money as a start up nation.
The real tragedy here is that some of Israel's neighbors hate Israel so much that they are willing to fight her to the very last Palestinian and Hamas is more than happy to let that happen. It truly is tragic.
They have voting rights and they voted for Hamas. Now was that a smart vote?
This one seems to be caused by a tiny percentage of assholes on both sides. Peace will never be in the assholes' best interest as it will reduce the amount of control the assholes have over their populations. Dozens of times during my lifetime peace has been within reach, only to be shattered by some asshole on one side or the other. Until such time as leaders arise on both sides who are interested and committed to a peaceful solution, this situation will not change.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
I can see how the people of Gaza could think so.
They see Israel as an outside force that periodically comes through town to kill everyone. They see Hamas as the only party willing and able to answer Israel's violence with some Palestinian violence. Whether or not that view of the situation accurately corresponds to reality is irrelevant; the fact of the matter is, the people of Gaza feel that in the current climate, Hamas represents their interests better than any of the other options.
Until the Israeli administration can find a way to change that perception (hint: continuation of the violence, marginalization, and blockage is unlikely to accomplish that goal), I expect continued support of Hamas and a continuation of desperate rocket attacks on Israel.
Chuuch. Preach. Tabernacle.
Also, I should point out that they (the people of Gaza) don't have voting rights. They used to. They voted in Hamas in free and fair elections. Of course, after Hamas consolidated power, they suspended further elections indefinitely. Hamas still enjoys widespread popular support in Gaza, but they'd be in power regardless, since elections are no longer held and there is no longer any democratic means of removing them from power.
Chuuch. Preach. Tabernacle.
So... you're on the fence about which side to blame.
Yes you do. You're a member of that species.
One person, one vote, one time
+1, Fully agree with this.
"the people of Gaza feel that in the current climate, Hamas represents their interests better than any of the other options."
Achille Talon
Hop!
Please, someone explain to me how seemingly rational and normal people who seem to have it all together and seemingly hold a good sum of beliefs that can be called measured and critical can demonize Israel for defending themselves...in an amazingly measured manner I must say...in a lion's den of homicidal and genocidal area of the world against a people who will accept nothing but their destruction (it's in their charter or something) when all these other dudes (who happen to be a designated terrorist organization) by NATO..I think, at least by the US)...and.... ...you know what, fuck it. People who complain about Israel and make martyrs out of HAMAS are truly fucking deluded or stupid.
I seem to remember a loud guy with a short mustache who also categorized Jews as a separate sub-species. He was charismatic and passionate, but turned out to be a real cruel and vicious killer. That's not opinion; that's history.
"Now, I doubt any of you would prefer a rolled up newspaper as a weapon against a dictator or a criminal intruder."
You realise that those rockets Hamas has it was probably getting for free, and those tunnels it built were actually the main way to get food and supplies into Gaza due to Israels blockade on imports, as they limited total food shipments to just 136 truck loads a day, for the entire Gaza population of 1.8million...
Hamas are far from blameless, but they also aren't anywhere near 100% of the problem.
The irony is that early in this round of fighting rockets fired by Hamas into Israel hit power equipment in Israel used to supply power to Gaza knocking out power to tens of thousands in Gaza - a self inflicted goal on the part of Hamas. the Israelis promptly fixed it restoring power to tens of thousands of people in Gaza. I doubt that most people are aware in the first place that Israelsuppliez much of the power to Gaza or that the Palestinian governing authorities are perpetually behind in their payments for the power but despite that the Israelis don't turn off the power.
Anyway, I wouldn't read much into this story, it was probably a stray shell that caused the problem. In the this as in all other things, the Israelis are grossly inefficient at harming civilians and civilian infrastructure. If the wanted to harm civilians they would follow the lead of Syria, who has managed to kill more civilians in couple of years than soldiers and civilians that the Israelis have managed to kill in 65 years.
Incidentally the NYT reported yesterday that the civilian death toll in Ukraine has now reached 800 - if you add the 300+ Ukrainian army deaths plus the unknown number of rebel dead it is greater than the death toll in Gaza. Now comes news of 20 more civilian dead overnight including 5 elderly when an old age home was hit by shells fired by the Ukrainian army.
Trying to blame Israel for very real world-wide problem of Muslim-on-neighbor violence is missing the root cause. The Palestinians and most Muslims have been taught from age zero to hate the Jews because of the lunatic ravings of their "prophet." Their Qur'an is filled with war tactics and how to treat the enemy, which is everyone who doesn't believe in their god. And the vast majority of Muslims believe in Sharia law that enforces these barbaric 8th century laws. Browse thereligionofpeace.com for a few insights into the real source of the problem.
It doesn't help that the language is absurdly ambiguous. Who is a Jew? Is it someone who practices Judaism? Is it someone who has a Jewish mother? Is it something else entirely? Does "Jew" refer to one's religion, race, or ethnicity? Of course, it depends on context. Context which is rarely available. People use the word "Jew" and then yell "That's not how I meant it" when their statement is challenged. Jews: either get some unambiguous words or accept that ambiguity necessarily leads to misunderstandings.
That being said, if we can't hold Israelis responsible for the reprehensible actions of Israel, who can we hold responsible?
Chuuch. Preach. Tabernacle.
imho, that's the real question people should ask themselves. if one can extract oneself from the insane notion that our propaganda presents, that of 'THIS time, an escalation of VIOLENCE will SURELY lead to PEACE!" then once you realize this pattern has repeated .. forever.. and never worked.. the remaining conclusions are to me a) pockets of humanity are literally insane, and b) someone (or group of someones) is benefiting from all this activity. it behooves us all to ask ourselves who this might be, as it will likely shed light on the truer drivers.
terror tunnels
Rush, is that you?
How do you distinguish a "terror tunnel" from the many tunnels used to smuggle food, clothing, potable water, and basic construction materials?
Chuuch. Preach. Tabernacle.
Would that be the same guy who rounded all the jews up into concentration camps and embarked on a lengthy campaign of dehumanization and extermination of them?
Israel never bombed their own citizens, you probably mean Hamas.
The people living in Gaza are not citizens of Israel? They are for all practical purposes since this is territory controlled by Israel. So in real terms how is this anything other than a civil war? Both sides are bombing each other and neither side is willing to be calm or rational. If you ever needed a better example of why I think organized religion is a terrible thing I certainly cannot find it.
Israeli citizens has all the rights that Americans have.
Tell that to the people living in Gaza. I'm sure they'll agree that their "rights" aren't being trampled on in any way and I'm sure they're fine with being kept in what amounts to a large prison camp with walls and guards.
On multiple occasions UN staff discovered that Hamas was storing munitions in UN charter schools. Widely reported but somehow you never noticed...
Democracy is a sheep and two wolves deciding what to have for lunch. Freedom is a well armed sheep contesting the issue
Dead children intentionally sacrificed by Hamas & in many cases by their own families in an attempt to inspire sympathy & cover the fact that Hamas intentionally stores war materials & launches attacks from proscribed civilian locations.
Democracy is a sheep and two wolves deciding what to have for lunch. Freedom is a well armed sheep contesting the issue
Perhaps, if voting were the only way to establish whether or not popular support exists. Thankfully enough, some geniuses back in the day thought up this crazy idea called a non-binding "poll". Think of it as an election, but the results aren't used for anything other than publication.
Of course, even simple polls won't accurately gauge popular support for Hamas. Many external factors are at play here. For example, Hamas' popularity recently plummeted in a very serious way. Why? Because they stopped paying their employees (civil servants, military, etc.). Why did they stop paying them? Well, it's complicated, and I concede that I myself don't understand all the details. However, it seems that it has something to do with the recent formation of a Hamas-Fatah unity government and Israel's feelings towards Hamas. Let's just say that Fatah government workers are still getting paid, but Hamas workers' pay is suspended until they are vetted. Of course, people don't like when their paychecks stop coming it, so I'm not surprised to see a significant dive in their popularity ratings. However, it can be argued that this is the direct result of Israeli meddling in Palestinian affairs, specifically with the intent of weakening Hamas' popularity. In that context, it's not clear that Hamas is any less loved today than before the paychecks stopped.
Anyway, anyone with even cursory familiarity with Gaza agrees. Even Palestinians who oppose the brand of violent resistance espoused by Hamas sympathize with the movement. Israel's manipulation of the situation may cost Hamas some popularity, but it has no meaningful effect on popular support for violence against the state of Israel, which is at the core of Hamas philosophy.
Chuuch. Preach. Tabernacle.
No. The terrorists might deserve it but the innocents do not. And there are innocents in Gaza, lots of them. The civilian casualties so far have been terrible despite Israel's attempts to limit them*. There is not much that can be done to protect civilians beyond what Israel has already done. But to nuke them is reprehensible even if it were feasible. The current option is bad but possibly the only method to secure innocent Israelis. That option would be murder. *And despite Hamas inflating numbers and adding their own dead combatants to the list. And of course adding at least twenty-five people who they executed for suspected collusion with Israel, whom they then listed as martyrs.
Which one will the US government assist? Of course when you do the math, the answer becomes clear.
“He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
It's not much of a blockade if the are not hurting. Isn't the point that once they are hungry enough they will elect a leadership with a clue that wants peace and will stop the attacks? Pretty sure they do not want them to starve to death bad PR and enough of the old folks remember how nasty that is. But hunger is a good motivator to break a defiant population.
No sir I dont like it.
Why doesn't Israel just nuke that shithole?
Dude, because that's NOT how Israel works, nor would it serve their purposes. Dispute what you hear from the press, Israel is actually being very measured in their response and has gone to great lengths to avoid civilian casualties. Just nuking Gaza would not be consistent with what they are trying to do.
Hamas started it and reuses to agree to any proposed cease fire.
Doesn't matter who started it. That's an argument that children make to justify their own bad behavior. There is no innocent party here.
Israel isn't the group calling for the extermination, Hamas is.
Israel has turned Gaza into a large open air prison. Many people in Gaza are innocent of any criminal action and yet they are made to suffer along with the terrorists. Israel will not give any voice in government to anyone who is not Jewish. Israel is not remotely being a fair minded party here. They conquered this territory and haven't done a good job of winning hearts and minds. They aren't going to convince the extremists but they could have convinced the more reasonable people to deal with the extremists. There is no evidence I can see that this was ever tried with any serious intent.
Israel has also offered legitimacy to the Palestinian government in exchange for a cease fire and removing the language in the charter to kill all jews.
Hamas is not the Palestinian government. Neither is Fatah which is the other major political group involved. They are roughly akin to political parties with a percentage of their membership (particularly Hamas) who are radical. There are extremists in the Israeli government too and they keep provoking the Palestinians even when it is clearly not a good idea. Neither side is listening to what the other cares about and neither has been willing to do what it will take to bring peace.
I forgot: If Israel nukes Gaza, they would in effect nuke them selves. It's like New Jersey nuking New York.
Israel's nuclear weapons are likely to be fission or hydrogen bombs in the 50-500 kt range. These bombs would not harm anyone in Israel if they were dropped on the main population centers inside Gaza. There might be a tiny bit of fallout, but nothing too serious.
New Jersey and New York are closer to one another, but you could still nuke central Jersey City without seriously injuring many people in New York if you used a 100 kt bomb. Window panes would be in high demand on Manhattan following the strike and many people would have superficial wounds from shattered glass. A tiny number of people on Manhattan might die on streets and sidewalks in accidents involving unusually aerodynamic pieces of shattered glass falling from tall buildings.
You also have to consider that the Palestinian people as a whole are not Hamas, in the same way the Northern Ireland population were not the IRA.
And yet the Palestinians have not rejected Hamas wholesale either. Obviously a large percentage of the Palestinian people supports Hamas and their goals. Some don't but clearly not enough to clear out the radicals willing to use force. The Israelis for their part are just as bad. They keep electing people who support policies that they know are provocative to the Palestinians and they damn well ought to know what the results of those policies will be by this point.
They see Israel as an outside force that periodically comes through town to kill everyone.
Probably on Passover.
The majority of intelligent people regardless of political affiliation do not have anything against Jews as a people as we are mentally capable of of separating the individual from the actions of the Israeli government. Can you say the same about yourself in regards to Palestinians and Hamas?
"I have downloaded hundreds and hundreds of records, why would I care if somebody downloads ours?" Robin Pecknold
Until the Israeli administration can find a way to change that perception
Changing that perception clearly runs counter to their objectives.
So what do you think should be Israel's response to the constant bombing of their country?
Here's a notion. How about trying to win the hearts and minds of the people who aren't trying to bomb Israel and get them on Israel's side? This conflict will NEVER be won by force of arms unless we countenance genocide. If Israel really wants to have a solution they need to listen to what the Palestinians are saying and actually work out a deal. They need to bring economic prosperity to the region and give it a voice in political matters even though the people there aren't Jewish. If they need to establish separate nation states then do that. Stop moving into contested territories. Stop making Gaza an outdoor prison camp. Kindness might work here. Bullets never will.
The fact that Israel hasn't just wiped the country off the map is perplexing to me. It is usually what happens when a weak country continues to poke at a stronger one.
So you are proposing that the Jews commit genocide? Have you forgotten the Holocaust? If ANYONE would be reluctant to do that I should think it would be the Jewish people.
That being said, if we can't hold Israelis responsible for the reprehensible actions of Israel, who can we hold responsible?
Unfortunately, this kind of question never has an easy answer. Those in the government who make policy decisions are responsible beyond a shadow of a doubt, but they're among the most protected people in that nation.
Did we really blame all Germans for Hitler? Most German citizens didn't even know the holocaust was happening.
Do we really blame all Americans for the NSA's bullshit, considering a majority of us are opposed to it?
Collective punishment has one major effect: making people hate those doing it.
They're scarier.
I could not dream of a better argument for distributed non-centralized power generation than this conflict. This region is by most accounts very sunny, and would be a perfect test case for distributed solar generation (or possibly even wind they are coastal in Gaza). Now there are some real impediments to achieving such a system, i.e. embargo/blockade by controlling nation-state. If there were the political will in Gaza to smuggle in power generation technologies rather than armaments along with the supplies needed for survival this might actually be a possibility.
For the general populace on both sides, this must seem like having a rather protracted sword of Damocles hanging over for decades. No one ever interviewed does not want this problem to be resolved This of course brings the real question up, why does this conflict not resolve itself? The answer is not simple. There is of course the media horse race, religion_A v. religion_B, argument. This may motivate the extremists on either side. One must consider the fact that there are significant economic resource impediments, the sides are being used in a geopolitical proxy fight, and the idea of ethnic identity defining statehood is historically problematic.
This region is resource constrained for multiple reasons. For Gaza, it is ridiculously population dense. For the region in general there are simply not enough water resources for everyone. These problems are not insurmountable, but when negotiating for independence things like water rights (ground and surface), and when determining the border who gets the nice farm land greenacre vs. who gets arid brownacre/desertacre. The Palestinians are currently dependent on foreign aide, charitable organizations, etc. This is problematic as well for obvious reasons that liberal and conservative scholars will attest. Foreign aide has strings attached so it prevents using resources efficiently (money for a water treatment plant, but no sewers for example). Foreign aide also creates dependency and prevents the growth of local markets. (There is one argument from each side.) This is not even scratching the surface of other natural resources, fly over rights, etc.
This fight is also one between many geopolitical rivals. Just as the European empires of the last two centuries spurred fights and unrest, so too do the economic empires of our current time. Players like other middle east oil states, Iran, EU, Russia, Syria, and of course the US of A. There are mixed foreign interests in this region not to mention NGOs (not the charity kind) who thrive and exist for reasons completely external to this conflict. Iran funds these one set of guys, we give money to Israel, and Russia helps Syria politically, who funds a different set of guys, and so on and so forth. This is an oversimplification of course, but we can see that this is about influence. Without this conflict, many countries and NGOs lose bargaining powers.
Historically, if we use solely ethnic identity to define statehood/nationhood we create weak states in the long run. The problem is of course the majorities and minorities of ethnic groups wax and wane. Assume Blueland has a minority Purple People population. Assume Blueland is founded on the concept that it is for the the Blueanese. Eventually if due to birth rates the Purpleansi become a large enough minority, the state will either have to amend its founding principles to include the Purpleansi or there will be a conflict. So, right now there is a Jewish state of Israel, and an Islamic pseudo-state of Palestine. Let's say in 100 years the Zoroastrian minority in Israel has a baby boom and are now a big population in both. Houston we have a problem. See the post-colonial mess that is other Middle Eastern States, Africa, etc.
These arguments are oversimplifications, but are just a Slashdot post with no sourcing to describe some of the problem. The solutions are probably as most solutions, difficult. Vote the leaders all out of power would be one really good start. Good Luck with that, we c
Well if Hamas treats the people nicely, all will be well except for the occasional Israeli attack when a rocket gets lobbed into Israel by some village idiot. If not, the people of Gaza revolt and we have another Syria in our hands except with higher likelihood of Israeli intervention...
...in bed
The people in Gaza are not Israeli citizens.
And yet Israel insists on controlling the territory. They may not get a vote but they ARE Israeli citizens until such time as Israel actually stops trying to control their political processes and truly leaves. Israel conquered the territory, they control what goes in or out and they fairly regularly send their military in. Even the maps show Gaza as a part of Israel. What they have done is to conquer a territory full of people who don't like Israel and never made a secret of that and then treated them badly for a long time. Shocking why things have gone badly.
Since I'm sure you'll mention the naval blockade, So for your information, the blockade was enacted in June 2007, when the Palestinians elected a terrorist organization (Hamas) to lead them, and started firing rockets in to Israel. Btw, right after their election, Hamas eradicated PLO members from the Gaza strip (which were *relatively* moderate muslims), through a series of violent clashes.
Yep, both sides are doing all sorts of evil things to each other. That's what happens in a civil war. Ever consider that a big part of the reason Hamas has such a large voice is because of the decades of stupid decisions by Israel? I totally get that Israel is a bit touchy given that they are surrounded by neighboring nations who have to put it mildly been quite hostile. But this is a conflict that will NEVER be won with bullets or walls. It will be won with cooperation and discussion and genuine caring about others.
Is there someone you can cooperate with on the other end? If not, then smuggling is not the purpose.
Gaza-Egypt tunnels? Probably mostly smuggling stuff from Hamas allies.
Gaza-Israel tunnels? Nobody would supply them with any stuff to smuggle on the other end, so that leaves launching attacks.
I think there was a Big Bang Theory ep where Sheldon tried to solve the "Isreal Problem" or however it is put. Since this is slashdot I wish someone would really explore some possible tech solutions being proposed. I've always wanted someone to put the problem in monetary terms. If it were possible to give every resident of gaza a million dollars to move to another country you could just buy them out. Obviously that is not possible, but there might be a number below that which would buy out enough of the population to be effective.
Not saying money is all that is at play here, but it certainly seems like something a bit more objective than all these fuzzy arguments about human rights or religious mandate.
In fact, aren't there Muslims in the Knesset?
Show me another country in the region that has a single Jew or Christian in office
Iraq used to have a Christian in the Cabinet - until Uncle Sam killed him
Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
That being said, if we can't hold Israelis responsible for the reprehensible actions of Israel, who can we hold responsible?
Unfortunately, this kind of question never has an easy answer. Those in the government who make policy decisions are responsible beyond a shadow of a doubt, but they're among the most protected people in that nation.
Did we really blame all Germans for Hitler? Most German citizens didn't even know the holocaust was happening.
We shouldn't we blame them for Hitler? He was duly voted in chancellor, leader or major political party. If most Germans knew about holocaust itself is debatable, but they knew damn well about war of conquest, incarceration of Jews, gypsys, etc., slavery (quite a lot of German farmers used Polish or Russian slaves), members of German minority living in conquered eastern countries could see barbarity of SS every day and had no problems taking over houses from murdered local families. There were countless indications that Third Reich was very evil regime and yet they followed orders.
There are many attempts to absolve Germans of blame recently - 3rd Reich is portrayed as run by "Nazis" (who seemingly had nothing to do with Germans and were actually aliens or something), Germans as "suffering" under Nazi regime, frequent use of "Polish concentration camps" phrase, which is quite insidious attempt to shift the blame.
No. The terrorists might deserve it but the innocents do not. And there are innocents in Gaza, lots of them. The civilian casualties so far have been terrible despite Israel's attempts to limit them*. There is not much that can be done to protect civilians beyond what Israel has already done. But to nuke them is reprehensible even if it were feasible. The current option is bad but possibly the only method to secure innocent Israelis. That option would be murder. *And despite Hamas inflating numbers and adding their own dead combatants to the list. And of course adding at least twenty-five people who they executed for suspected collusion with Israel, whom they then listed as martyrs.
maybe not but it would save a lot of suffering and reduce total deaths if they did this one and got it over with. Hell it may even persuade some other Muslims not to try and attack people with different beliefs
Over at the Wall Street Journal Bret Stephens questions the claim that as many as 1,023 Palestinian lives have been lost in the conflict. The column is paywalled but can be accessed for free via the WSJ Opinion Facebook Page.
Ceci n'est pas une signature.
Israel claims that it is merely exercising its right to self-defense and that Gaza is no longer occupied. Here’s what you need to know about these talking points and more.
Israel has killed almost 800 Palestinians in the past twenty-one days in the Gaza Strip alone; its onslaught continues. The UN estimates that more than 74 percent of those killed are civilians. That is to be expected in a population of 1.8 million where the number of Hamas members is approximately 15,000. Israel does not deny that it killed those Palestinians using modern aerial technology and precise weaponry courtesy of the world’s only superpower. In fact, it does not even deny that they are civilians.
Israel’s propaganda machine, however, insists that these Palestinians wanted to die (“culture of martyrdom”), staged their own death (“telegenically dead”) or were the tragic victims of Hamas’s use of civilian infrastructure for military purposes (“human shielding”). In all instances, the military power is blaming the victims for their own deaths, accusing them of devaluing life and attributing this disregard to cultural bankruptcy. In effect, Israel—along with uncritical mainstream media that unquestionably accept this discourse—dehumanizes Palestinians, deprives them even of their victimhood and legitimizes egregious human rights and legal violations.
This is not the first time. The gruesome images of decapitated children’s bodies and stolen innocence on Gaza’s shores are a dreadful repeat of Israel’s assault on Gaza in November 2012 and winter 2008–09. Not only are the military tactics the same but so too are the public relations efforts and the faulty legal arguments that underpin the attacks. Mainstream media news anchors are inexplicably accepting these arguments as fact.
Below I address five of Israel’s recurring talking points. I hope this proves useful to newsmakers.
1) Israel is exercising its right to self-defense.
As the occupying power of the Gaza Strip, and the Palestinian Territories more broadly, Israel has an obligation and a duty to protect the civilians under its occupation. It governs by military and law enforcement authority to maintain order, protect itself and protect the civilian population under its occupation. It cannot simultaneously occupy the territory, thus usurping the self-governing powers that would otherwise belong to Palestinians, and declare war upon them. These contradictory policies (occupying a land and then declaring war on it) make the Palestinian population doubly vulnerable.
The precarious and unstable conditions in the Gaza Strip from which Palestinians suffer are Israel’s responsibility. Israel argues that it can invoke the right to self-defense under international law as defined in Article 51 of the UN Charter. The International Court of Justice, however, rejected this faulty legal interpretation in its 2004 Advisory Opinion. The ICJ explained that an armed attack that would trigger Article 51 must be attributable to a sovereign state, but the armed attacks by Palestinians emerge from within Israel’s jurisdictional control. Israel does have the right to
"Flyin' in just a sweet place,
Never been known to fail..."
The (very Muslim) Egypt is also blockading Gaza.
Explain that away, smartarse.
Did we not attack Iraq infrastructure, including the Iraq power grid and telecommunications network at the start of the Iraq war? Are Israel and Hamas, the elected government of Gaza, not at war? Civilians suffer in war, that is why it is best to not go to war against a superior force or support a government that does so on your behalf.
If you are curious why so many children are killed in Gaza, look at this footage:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?...
I forgot nukes didn't have any long-term radiation poisoning.
Write boring code, not shiny code!
This is utter bullshit. If an enemy is trying to kill you, you try to kill them — using the best weapons you've got, hitting them as hard as possible. Because they are doing their best.
That lie was exposed as such, when the Gazans voted — in free and internationally-observed elections — for Hamas.
Contrary to the haters' portrayal, IDF are not indiscriminate killers they don't need this sort of calculations to try their hardest to avoid killing innocent civilians. Shit still happens, unfortunately.
In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
And why is it they come through periodically? Could it be, oh, I don't know, because the people they elected constantly try to kill people in Israel?
No, couldn't be that simple.
Hamas is the aggressor here...constantly.
When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
Because they spent all the money on building tunnels into Israel.
When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
Simple.
The Israeli offensive is a war against terrorism. It aims at the complete destruction of terrorists. Therefore, there is no collateral damage involved. They are killing terrorists, potential terrorists (men), future terrorists (children), terrorist production facilities (women), terror tunnels (tunnels), terrorist protectors and repairers (doctors, hospitals), terrorist shelters (houses), terror-learning centers (schools), terror fuel (power plants), terror exchange facilities (airports - already destroyed a long time ago), and terrorist and antisemitic ideas (any form of criticism of the state of Israel and its actions).
Nobody is campaigning to keep the homosexuals unable to marry — they are unable to do so already. Not because they have no right — only because they have no ability.
In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
Several important facts are missing from the summary. The only correct one is that, yes, Gaza's only power plant has been attacked.
However:
1. The effect of this power plant being out of commission is relatively minor. Gaza receives most of its electricity (and water), whether in war or peace, from, guess who - Israel. And no, they don't pay their bills (their debt is around $500 million). In fact the bizarre and twisted reality in the Middle East today is that the Israeli taxpayer is funding electricity for the enemy's rocket manufacturers.
2. The Israeli army has denied firing anywhere near the power plant and there is a high probability that the attack was a misfired Hamas rocket or mortar bomb, similar to other recent cases where Hamas rockets have killed Gazans.
3. About 50,000 Gazans have already been in a blackout for a couple of weeks since a Hamas rocket fell near one of the power lines supplying Gaza with electricity from Israel. The Israeli Electric Company will not risk its technicians' lives to repair this line while under enemy fire, thank you very much.
it would be more like New Jersey nuking its jail if the jail were 99% full of innocent people who happened to live on the property before the jail was built
I find it interesting that pretty much all posts in support of the Gazans have been moderated down, yet there seem to be an awful lot of such posts. There's nothing like censorship by the mods to ensure that all viewpoints aren't heard equally. So with the expectation of being moderated down...
Israel likes to claim they're targetting Hamas installations. Yet if that's the case, each of those installations they've targetted has only launched an average of less than two rockets at Israel, when you consider the number of rockets Israel claims have been launched vs. the number of sites they've targetted.
It seems to me rather highly unlikely that Hamas has actually got *that* many rocket launchers, considering they have to be smuggled in.
Another common thread is the "terror tunnels." Don't forget that Gaza is isolated and has to smuggle in supplies. There is no way to tell whether a tunnel was being used for smuggling goods in or attackers out, but given that there have only been *two* reports of Hamas sending attackers through the tunnels, I think it's safe to say that those tunnels were being used primarily to smuggle in goods.
Well over a 1000 Gazans have been killed, the vast majority civilians. In the meantime, only 3 Israeli civilians have been killed. As to the soldiers on both sides, I *expect* them to die -- they're in battle. I've no sympathy for dead soldiers on either side.
I don't see how anyone can take a "moderate" stance on the issue. Israel invaded Palestine. Israel destroys Gazan homes to make room for settlements in violation of the Geneva conventions. Israel targets civilian infrastructure. Israel has tanks, planes, missiles, and gun emplacements; the Gazans have some pretty-much-useless rocket launchers that don't do any damage to Israeli infrastructure.
The Gazans are walled in, have no where to escape to, and are, for the most part, just civilians trying to survive. Bleat as they will about "self defence", I don't buy the Israeli arguments for this violent and genocidal assault on the civilians of Gaza. Not one bit.
I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
I saw a map yesterday showing Israel's true intent: with the exception along the Egypt border, they've evenly shoved into the Gaza territory by three klicks. They will be adding that territory to Israel proper with a clear message sent: keep attacking us, and we'll slowly drive you into the sea. I'm just surprised it hasn't happened before now.
Believe it or not, there are actually more than a handful of Arabs in Israel, many of who sympathize with the Palestinians in Gaza. Israel is not some homogeneous Jewish society.
Chuuch. Preach. Tabernacle.
Here's a link for you, to Rush Limbaugh's site. Oh wait my bad, I mean a link to the New York Times. That's a notorious right-wing propaganda site, right?
You jest, but the commie pinko hippie liberal rag known as the New York Times just came out in support of legalization of cannabis. After a few states already legalized. After a majority of the country has come out in favor of legalization. Forgive me for considering the NYT to be a right-wing medium.
It all comes back round to Hamas.
Or, conversely, it all comes back round to Israel. It's Israel that's enforcing the blockade. It's Israel that's killing Palestinian civilians. Yes, it sucks to be a Jew in southern Israel, and the rocket attacks make it worse, but the rocket attacks are because of the attacks from Israel. It sucks to have rockets raining down on civilians, but those are because Israel prevents Hamas from acquiring more sophisticated weaponry capable of being targeted.
Sometimes I wonder why Israel doesn't just bomb everything in Gaza flat and kill everyone.
Sometimes I too wonder why Israel doesn't take a page out of the Nazi playbook and just go full-out holocaust on the Palestinians. Then I remember what happened to Hitler.
But let me return to something you said that I found interesting...
That tunnel is there to kidnap Israelis, and the purpose of the kidnapping is terror.
Perhaps. Much like the purpose of the IDF is to kill Palestinians, and the purpose of the killing is terror. Or perhaps we can be reasonable people and acknowledge that these tunnels have been being used to smuggle essential supplies ever since the Israeli-Egyptian blockade was put into place, and that the IDF actions are intended to stop, prevent, or deter Hamas' violent ambitions.
Nah, that wouldn't fit in with your "we're right, they're wrong" mindset. Worse still, such dangerously reasonable lines of thought might lead to a peaceful agreement between the two warring parties. The horror.
Chuuch. Preach. Tabernacle.
Hamas is the aggressor here...constantly.
Like in this past situation, where individuals independent of Hamas murdered three Israeli teens, and Israel unleashed a wave of collective punishment that not only burned a Palestinian teen to death but also killed over a thousand innocent civilians. Can you point out Hamas' aggression here?
Chuuch. Preach. Tabernacle.
And yet somehow they cannot make the connection that the rockets that Hamas shoots into Israel by the hundreds brings that Israeli destruction to them.
Indeed, this is amusing. As amusing as the fact that Israel cannot make the connection that the destruction Israel brings to Gaza (along with the blockade, along with the refusal to recognize sovereignty, etc) is the reason (are the reasons?) Hamas shoots rockets into Israel.
I find it odd that Anti-Israel propagandists seem to expect that being under constant fire should not bring any reprisal.
I find it odd that Anti-Arab propagandists seem to expect that continued flaunting of international law and marginalization of a powerless people should not bring any reprisal. Face the facts. Israelis are a bloodthirsty lot. Just look at the frequency with which they initiate armed conflict with nearly any neighboring state. I'd compare numbers with your ISIS stats, but I'm afraid that Gaza is a tiny fraction of the size of the territory ISIS is operating in. If we looked at number of dead per day per square mile, you wouldn't be quite so quick to encourage these comparisons.
Also, thank you for appointing me an Anti-Israel propagandist. I hear dismissing people outright is a great way of winning them over in rational debate.
Chuuch. Preach. Tabernacle.
Eliminating the only power plant will probably end electrical service for Gaza...and that will be hardship. No power means no pumps for water and sewage, no air conditioning or heat, no light, no electric cooking, no computers, no digital controls, etc. Electricity is a requirement for comfortable modern living. But...Hamas chose to launch not one, but hundreds, maybe thousands of missiles at Israel. The people in Gaza chose to accept the missiles or at least look the other way. Hamas was elected by the Gaza population to be their leaders...another choice. Launching missiles at someone is...war...and war is not comfortable, safe, clean, easy or without cost. When you go to war, people die and those left behind are going to be without comfort until the war ends. If Hamas was in Canada and chose to launch missiles at Boston, the United States would never rest until every last one of the missiles was eliminated, Hamas was destroyed, and a new more-friendly government had taken Hamas's place. As it is, Israel has been remarkably restrained. Yes, thousands of Gazans will likely die before the war is over. That is war. War kills. Gaza chose war. War has arrived. Be glad that there is no war whereever you are and never, never, never choose war.
"Can you point out Hamas' aggression here?" Ok ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L...
So it seems that you've linked me to a page of Palestinian rocket attacks on Israel, 2014.
If you recall, I asked for you to point out Hamas' aggression. According to the link you provided, July 7 was the first time Hamas fired any rockets at Israel in 2014. According to my calendar, July 7 falls after July 2, which is when Israeli Jews kidnapped and burned alive the Palestinian teenager Mohammed Abu Khdeir.
Your turn.
Chuuch. Preach. Tabernacle.
Hamas is intentionally targeting civilians. It has publicly said so and (more importantly) done so for many decades now. They kidnap and murder Israeli civilians. They call for Israel's destruction without room for negotiation. There are plenty of video evidence proving this and on the other hand proving that Israel has aborted important military targets because of the presence of civilians. Hamas has released numerous videos praising their people for acting as human shields. So don't take our word for it. Take *their* word for it.
Your post simply shows how often international NGOs depend witnesses that later turn out to be Hamas members. NGOs have neither the time, funding or expertise to witness these events first-hand so they rely on Hamas members instead. When a rocket lands on a school and witnesses say it came from Israel, they don't have the necessary expertise to actually reach that conclusion. Hamas' own rockets have landed *inside* Gaza hundreds of times in the past two weeks. Do you honestly think none of these caused Gazan civilian deaths? And yet, the media hasn't reported once of such an event. Funny that, eh?
Here's the difference. Israel investigated, found, arrested and are charging those responsible. Hamas, not so much.
And you have to one fucking hell of a Face Painting Homer to think the current situation is the result of one death and not the hundreds of rockets Hamas has fired at Israel.
When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
Every nation has a right to defend itself...unless that nation is Israel. Then, these people expect them to just keep turning the other cheek.
Funny, Obama and the rest of them called Afghanistan a Just War, which we launched in response to 9/11. So American can go to Afghanistan, half way around the world and fuck them up, but Israel needs to just keep absorbing the rockets.
I see.
When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
I know you are being sarcastic here, but seriously, what would it take to convince you that a tunnel from Gaza into Israel was intended for attacking Israel?
How about if it was actually used to attack Israel... would that be enough to convince you?
No, that wouldn't be enough to convince me. Any more than you would be convinced that the tunnels are used to smuggle essential supplies if I were to provide convincing evidence that someone walked through one with some shawarma once. Any honest person will admit that it's entirely possible and overwhelmingly likely that the tunnels serve(d) many purposes. That they were used in the commission of crimes (to Westerners, "terrorism", to Arabs, "resistance") doesn't mean that that was their sole purpose. My point is that if you're okay with calling them "terror tunnels" or "kidnapping tunnels", or arbitrarily naming them for one of their many uses, you should be equally okay with calling them "food tunnels". Of course, you don't hear people talking about the "food tunnels", because that doesn't fit the narrative that they're trying to push with their "terror tunnels". I'm pointing out dishonesty, nothing more, nothing less. I acknowledge that these tunnels were used to kill or capture Israeli soldiers, because I'm not trying to advance one side's agenda over the other's. Are you similarly willing to acknowledge that these tunnels were used for purposes that aren't quite so nefarious, or do you refuse to acknowledge reality when it fails to cast a negative light on the Palestinians?
You are seriously arguing the moral equivalence of Hamas and Israel? You are seriously saying that it's okay for Hamas to rain down rockets indiscriminately on civilians because Israel has been able to keep them from getting better weapons?
No, but it sure seems like Israel apologists are saying that it's okay for Israel to rain down rockets indiscriminately on civilians because Palestinians have been unable to police their side of the quasi-border (largely because of Israeli policy which prevents any meaningful governance by the PA). I'm merely using this faulty logic in the opposite direction, where I expected it to be quickly called out as being faulty logic. However, I suppose it's asking too much for people to realize that if it's faulty logic when used in defense of Hamas, it's equally faulty when used in defense of Israel.
If only a peaceful agreement were possible.
1) Evacuate
2) Nuke
3) Middle east below sea level
4) Peace!
Chuuch. Preach. Tabernacle.
The storyline put forth goes like so: this all started when Hamas kidnapped three teenagers and then killed them in June. Israel launched a search and rescue mission, and Hamas responded by firing rockets.
But it's all bullshit. The month before the teens were kidnapped, the IDF straight up murdered two Palestinian boys in the street. And the month before that Israel tried to provoke Hamas by murdering one of its members the same night that Hamas and Fatah announced a unity agreement. The day before the kidnapping, Israel murdered a member of Hamas they accused of planning rocket attacks. Despite Israel's repeated violations of it's own cease fire agreement with Hamas, the latter did not respond in kind. Finally, not only had Hamas not fired any rockets since the last time Israel violated a cease fire in 2012, it had helped arrest those who had.
But Bibi found the excuse he needed with the kidnappings of the three teenagers. Despite being pretty damned sure they were all dead - you can hear gunshots over one of the teens cell phones and the car was soon found full of blood and bullet casings - they spent weeks arresting Palestinians and bulldozing homes in Gaza for a kidnapping in the West Bank even after the Palestinian Authority was helping search for the missing teens. And even Israeli outlets admit that rockets were only fired in response to IDF attacks:
At least 16 rockets were fired at Israel Monday morning, most of them hitting open areas in the Eshkol region, the army said. The security sources, who spoke on condition of anonymity, assessed that Hamas had probably launched the barrage in revenge for an Israeli airstrike several hours earlier which killed one person and injured three more.
Since then, a thousand Palestinians have died, many of them children, for which the population equivalent would be over 200,000 people getting killed in the U.S. If anyone is defending themselves, it's Hamas defending the people of Gaza from racist Israeli provocation and aggression.
and those tunnels it built were actually the main way to get food and supplies into Gaza due to Israels blockade on imports
Oops, imagine their surprise when they found out their tunnels (aimed at "getting food") ended up in Israel! Do you think they were planning to go to the nearest Israeli supermarket and buy some food to take home?
How do you distinguish a "terror tunnel" from the many tunnels used to smuggle food, clothing, potable water, and basic construction materials?
Actually, it's pretty easy: those for bringing in goods end up in Egypt, the terror tunnels end up in Israel. Also, stashes of arms being stored in the tunnels may provide a hint as to their purpose...
Sure, restarting turbines with car batteries is neat and all, but it was 5 years ago. Why is this relevant?
You haven't provided any evidence that Hamas launched even a single rocket prior to the immolation of Mohammed Abu Khdeir.
Anyway, in case you're having trouble with the timeline and/or the principle of causality:
June 12, three Israeli teenage "settlers" are kidnapped and murdered in the West Bank while hitchhiking, probably by Palestinians.
July 2, a Palestinian teenager in East Jerusalem is kidnapped and burned alive by Israelis.
July 7, Hamas begins its retaliation, launching dozens (and subsequently hundreds) of rockets per day into Israel.
July 8, large scale IDF assault on Gaza.
The current situation (large scale IDF assault on Gaza) can be said to be the result of one of more of the following:
Hamas' retaliatory rocket attacks.
The abduction and immolation of Mohammed Abu Khdeir in East Jerusalem.
The abduction and murder of three teenage Israeli settlers in the West Bank.
Don't pretend that Hamas just woke up grumpy one day and decided to start firing off hundreds of rockets at Israel to pass the time.
Also, regarding the discrepancy between Israel's handling of the crimes committed in Israel versus Fatah's handling of the crimes committed in the West Bank (yes, Fatah, not Hamas, because the settler teens were killed in the West Bank, not Gaza)... Perhaps you're not aware of this, but while the Israeli government actually has sovereignty over Israeli territory, Fatah unfortunately does not have sovereignty over the West Bank. Perhaps if Israel were to allow a real sovereign government to exist in the West Bank, they'd have the right to expect some sort of real governance there. Since that is currently not the case, I personally am not surprised to see that a weak pseudo-government is incapable of quality police work. Are you? Or are you now saying that the moderate Fatah government is intentionally interfering with the investigation? That would be quite the extraordinary claim, one not even made by the Israelis themselves.
Chuuch. Preach. Tabernacle.
Congratulations on discovering the tautology.
Chuuch. Preach. Tabernacle.
Religion only figures into it as far as it being the justification for a bunch of immigrants from Europe and the U.S. moving to another continent and laying claim to all of the land in a certain territory from people of another faith.
Religion is no more central to this conflict than was Manifest Destiny or South African Apartheid.
Hamas hadn't fired any rockets since 2012, prior to being struck multiple times by Israel. That's not according to Hamas, but Israeli officials. What was Hamas doing? Arresting groups that did.
And all this in a rampage through Gaza for kidnappings in the West Bank when Israeli authorities knew pretty damned well that the kids were already dead, between the shots heard over a cell phone call to the car being found full of blood and bodies.
You're just another imperialist blaming the victims of imperialism.
Did you really think the rocket attacks started this year? I only linked to the latest year's worth of data, but in that link the first line contains this link: Since 2001, Palestinian militants have launched thousands of rocket and mortar attacks on Israel from the Gaza Strip. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P...
Hamas is so proud of their rockets that they unveiled a monument to them this year. https://ph.news.yahoo.com/vide...
Either you are being deliberately obtuse or you are simply sowing disinformation. Either way I'm certainly wasting my time engaging you in any further discussion regarding this topic.
I have seen the same news reports, and a lack of the same news reports. Indeed, I have no proof that the tunnels on the Israeli side were used for smuggling. However, I do know that the blockade has created a huge demand for cross-border smuggling. I also know that the supply of cross-border tunnels has decreased significantly due to action taken on the Egyptian side. I also know that no significant changes have occurred within Gaza to decrease demand for cross-border smuggling. I'm postulating that the tunnels on the Israeli side are suitable for smuggling (albeit less so than the ones on the Egypt side were, since it's much easier to procure illegal arms in Egypt than in Israel), and therefore are most likely being used for such purposes as well. If you feel that the closure of the Egyptian side tunnels has eliminated the demand for smuggled goods in Gaza, or you feel that the Israeli side tunnels are unsuitable for any such purpose, I'm open to hearing your argument. Otherwise, even in the absence of any direct evidence, I will maintain that it is overwhelmingly likely that these tunnels are being used not only for attacks into Israel but also to facilitate cross-border smuggling. You're entitled to disagree, as this is merely conjecture, without providing any evidence. However, in the absence of evidence (and we do have an absence of unbiased evidence regarding these tunnels), I feel that the most reasonable position is the one that acknowledges the incompleteness of information and doesn't insist on absolutes (like the claims that these tunnels' sole purpose was to attack Israel and nothing else). Reality is very rarely so black-and-white, and large infrastructure projects are rarely single-use (even if they are initially intended as such).
And for those interested, here's an alternative take on the greenhouses.
Chuuch. Preach. Tabernacle.
Pretty sure they do not want them to starve to death bad PR and enough of the old folks remember how nasty that is. But hunger is a good motivator to break a defiant population.
Unless if they can blame the starvation on the Israelis, which they eminently can. PR victory!
Unity? Screw that: XFCE. Slashdot Beta? Screw that: SoylentNews. Australis? Screw that: Pale Moon. UX developers DIAF
Convenient that you don't count prior years
Yes, conveniently I used the very link you provided me with. If you wanted me to go back to 2001, you shouldn't have linked to a list of rocket attacks in 2014.
Two can play at this disingenuous game. Conveniently you don't count prior years. Since 1895, Jews have come to control 8522 square miles of Palestinian land in the Middle East. Israel has frequently violated international laws of war by using white phosphorous indiscriminately in civilian populated areas. Israelis have fought several wars of aggression to continue their state's expansion. Did you think Israeli (or pre-1948, Zionist) takeover of Palestinian land started this year? I only link to a few of the atrocities committed by Israel, but each of my links can direct you to further information on Israeli violence.
Israel is so proud of their illegal expansion that they unveiled a plan to annex the remainder of Palestine.
See? See how intentionally being a dick can turn civil discourse into a pissing contest? See how digging your heels in and refusing to be objective can turn a reasonable person into a raging asshole? Maybe next time you'll think twice before embracing a disingenuous argument. I won't hold my breath, though.
Of course, resorting to the tactics you yourself embrace has left me looking like some Palestinian-supporter, much like you come across as an Israel-supporter. That means nothing productive can come of this discussion. In my own defense, I can point you to my extensive posting history today which I hope shows that I'm only here to encourage people to set aside their preconceptions and approach the issue from an objective point of view without instinctively seeking out to blame one party or the other for "starting it" or "being responsible". In the end, it doesn't fucking matter who's responsible for the death and destruction we see in the news. What I'm more interested in is who will be responsible for setting aside generations of prejudices to actually put this shit behind us and move forward into a new era of peace.
Chuuch. Preach. Tabernacle.
Last I checked they are the ones refusing a cease fire to allow humanitarian aid so pretty hard to spin that PR.
No sir I dont like it.
Right. Israel doesn't work that way. A nuke is a big weapon that would cause a lot of damage, not just to the baby wielding gunmen in Gaza.
This signature has Super Cow Powers
My point is that Hamas has been extremely aggressive in this go-round and has targeted civilian populations both for attacks as well as retaliations. Hamas is actually proud of the civilian death toll. For example today on Hamas TV: Dead Gaza civilians privileged to have died this way (Warning Graphic) https://www.youtube.com/watch?... Here is another example, Hamas members brutally beating civilians of Gaza who leave their homes following IDF warnings (Warning Graphic) https://www.youtube.com/watch?... Hamas sucks, there is no way around it, they are not the "good guys".
On the other hand Israel's destroying the only power plant in Gaza can in no way be considered legitimate unless there was a tunnel beneath it.
The idea that anyone there will ever set "aside generations of prejudices to actually put this shit behind us and move forward into a new era of peace" is a nice dream. Ask Anwar Sadat how that works out.
Tunnels with secret entrances and exits, where e.g. the exit is less than a kilometre from a kindergarten, may have multiple uses but are primarily useful for attack. As such, the Israelis will not tolerate their existence and will destroy all such tunnels. IMHO they are right to do this.
Totally agree.
Also, it is a tragedy that Hamas allocated tens of millions of dollars worth of resources to these tunnels, when they could have been allocating resources to help the people of Gaza.
Totally disagree. That's no different than Palestinians in Gaza talking about how it is a tragedy that the US Government allocates vast sums of money to military aid packages for Israel, when they could have been allocating these resources to destroying Israel instead. Who are you to speak for the people of Gaza? How do you know that they would not rather see retribution against Israel instead of some creature comforts for themselves?
As for the tragedy of the greenhouses...
I never called it a tragedy, but nonetheless.... I don't take the position that Israel should have left sufficient soldiers inside Gaza to guard the greenhouses. I don't blame Israel for the destruction of the greenhouses. I'm merely countering the claim that there was any sort of "gift" of greenhouses, in practice. If I "gift" you $1M but send it as cash via uninsured US Postal Service and you never get it because it's stolen en route, can I really say you received any sort of gift from me? Anyway, to me, any mention of greenhouses is a canary. The greenhouses are overwhelmingly brought up by disingenuous or uninformed people trying to portray the Palestinians as savages that would cut off their noses to spite their faces (destroy the greenhouses simply because they were from the Jews). I note that you didn't bring it up in that way, which is refreshing. However, I caution you against mentioning it to supporters of Palestine or independents, as usually it causes people to tune out and dismiss the speaker as a loon (somewhat like when people bring up Jews drinking the blood of children, etc.)
Chuuch. Preach. Tabernacle.
I'n not the one who left you looking "like some Palestinian-supporter", you took care of that nicely on your own
Reading comprehension fail. Let me quote myself: "Of course, resorting to the tactics you yourself embrace has left me looking like some Palestinian-supporter". The subject: me. The predicate: resorting. Translation to a level of language that you're capable of understanding: I never said you left me looking like some Palestinian-supporter, so you don't need to deny a non-existent accusation.
Aside from that, I see you've entirely ignored the content of my post. You're still clinging to your "Israel is the best, Hamas need to die" ideology (with the notable exception of criticizing Israel for the power plant attack), focusing on providing more evidence of why Hamas are not the "good guys". Indeed, resolving this is a nice dream. Are you suggesting that your approach of embracing the conflict and working to ensure its continuation is preferable?
Chuuch. Preach. Tabernacle.
By your own timeline, the Palestinians started this.
Also by your own admission, Israel began the raids only after Hamas began shooting rockets (Again) at Israel.
So suck it.
When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
Perfect.
You gotta look at the alternatives. Hamas was the group that appears to be less corrupt than Fatah, Fatah seemed to be cooperating with the enemy that bombs them periodically, Hamas provided some actual services in a region where no services existed. Thus out of the choices it was the best one for many of the voters. From the point of view of Palestineans, they are clearly at war and occupied by a foreign power with no rights granted to them, with homes and farms being taken away with no legal recourse allowed, and no opportunity available for peace to exist except if they become a subservient underclass.
The problem here is that Israel doesn't see this. They seem to take the line that they will continue spanking the child until the child cheers up; the spanking may occasionally die down but will return at intervals just to remind the child who's in charge. There is still a politically powerful section of Israeli politics that believes all of Palestine is theirs, and they sabotage the peace processes just as much as Hamas does. I think many in Israel that spanking the child until it cheers up is a senseless policy but they don't have enough political power to make a change, or they think it's a bad idea but can't think of a better one.
As far as your question, why not blame the Israelis for voting in such a hard line government? A stupid vote that ensures an ongoing conflict for another decade. If you don't see it that way, then that's because you're picking sides. You need to see both sides to be blamed, both sides at fault, both sides committing atrocities, both sides start up the fighting again whenever the peace lasts too long.
All Israel is trying to do is get back to the status quo. The problem is that the status quo is unacceptable. The status quo is just a lull between the fighting but without any active efforts to advance peace. More effort is spent nullifying any peace processes than in actually trying to work things out. Both sides absolutely reject any possibility of peace unless the other side makes concessions first, and neither side will make any concessions. The area will be at war a century from now.
What the rest of the society considers worthy of recognition as "marriage" should, indeed, be up to that society... This is not about sex-life, which should be up to the willing participants, but about other people's opinions: "We are a married couple!" "No, you are not — you are two men..." "Yes, we are — this new laws says so!"
To force others to consider a particular union as "marriage" may be illiberal...
Sure. And move straight on to fighting the species caveat next, will you not? Or, perhaps, the one person caveat will be next — why can't I be married to two consenting adult human females and an adult male cat — at once, after all? How is that prohibition not discrimination?
Full agreement here — there should be no special provisions for "spouses" in any laws — we are all equal subjects and citizens. Until then, however, "marriage" and "spouse" are legal terms and their precise definitions are up to the legislatures...
In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
The table in that article lists 22 rockets, 4 mortar shells in January 2014; 9 rockets in February; 65 rockets, 1 mortar in March; 19 rockets, 5 mortars in April; 4 rockets, 3 mortars in May; 53 rockets, 1 mortar in June; and 2,319 rockets and numerous mortars in July (still counting).
Does your calendar begin in July? If so, that would explain a lot.
One person, one vote, one time
These are devout Muslims we're talking about here. You didn't have to write the politically correct updated version of the phrase. The classic version is much more precise: one man, one vote, one time.
A smuggling tunnel connects one Palestinian area with another Palestinian area. A terror tunnel connects a Palestinian area with an Israeli civilian population center.
The Gaza-Egypt border is managed by Egypt under an agreement initiated in 1979 and then amended by Israel in 2005 - the opening and closing of the borders is, under those agreements, managed by Israel even if they are policed by Egyptian officers.
So even though its a Gaza-Egypt border, its still controlled by Israel.
Its only since the uprising in Egypt that Egypt has unilaterally closed the Gaza-Egyptian border, and for this they should be in the international spotlight, but even then the Egyptian closing of the border and prior blockade is not comparable to the Israeli blockade which extends to Gaza ports and international trade into Gaza which does not cross Israeli territory.
Since thats exactly what a large number of Palestinians did when the Gaza-Israeli border crossings were open (find work in Israel and go shopping in Israel), I see no reason why the tunnels into Israel are not also for the same purpose - food is freely available across the border in Israel, its getting it back across the border which is the issue.
By your own timeline, the Palestinians started this.
By my own timeline (though I would argue that objective reality isn't really "my own"), Palestinians did start this. Note that "Palestinians" isn't the same thing as "Hamas", but since you're being so sloppy with your language I don't suppose you'd understand the significance of the difference.
Also by your own admission, Israel began the raids only after Hamas began shooting rockets (Again) at Israel.
I never contested the claim that the current Israeli offensive is the immediate consequence of Hamas' rocket fire. The claim I contested was that the rocket fire is what brought about this situation.
So suck it.
Indeed, continue patting yourself on the back. Your nuanced understanding of this situation has led to peace in the middle east. Congratulations, hero of the day.
On a more serious note, ignorant cheerleaders such as yourself are the real reason why this problem exists today and will continue to exist for some time into the future. Instead of trying in earnest to understand both sides point of view, you focus on trying to pin blame on whichever party you're biased against. Considering that the strategy of blaming the other side hasn't been very effective in establishing peace these past few decades, I'd argue that you're a fool to continue down this path.
Chuuch. Preach. Tabernacle.
Misrepresenting the facts. Egypt closed the border with Gaza among other reasons because Hamas is seen as part of the Muslim Brotherhood, who Sisi kicked out. It's because the Egyptian leaders are not Muslim that they're blockading, not despite of them being.
A reaonsable response! From an AC!
I agree with just about all of your points. I'd just like to add one point, regarding Hamas' disinterest in a cease-fire.
Consider what Israeli popular sentiment would be like if somehow the Palestinians got the upper hand and drove all the Israelis into a 139 square mile concentration camp, blockaded them off from the rest of the world, and refused to allow the formation of any sort of sovereign government. Do you think the Israelis would be very eager to accept a cease-fire? To effectively concede that this 139 square mile shithole at the mercy of the Palestinians will be the Jewish State that they dreamed of?
Chuuch. Preach. Tabernacle.
Indeed, this is amusing. As amusing as the fact that Israel cannot make the connection that the destruction Israel brings to Gaza (along with the blockade, along with the refusal to recognize sovereignty, etc) is the reason (are the reasons?) Hamas shoots rockets into Israel.
Indeed. And while those rockets have wounded thousands, and inconvenienced many more, they've only killed a handful. Israel has exceeded that by many orders of magnitude in a tiny fraction of the time. Maybe someday the Palestinians will figure out that getting into a violent pissing contest with someone with the power to utterly destroy you isn't really a smart move.
I find it odd that Anti-Arab propagandists seem to expect that continued flaunting of international law and marginalization of a powerless people should not bring any reprisal
Like the 13-year strategy of rocket attacks against civilian targets that Hamas has pursued in violation of international law? I think Israel, like Hamas, has figured out that international law is largely toothless.
Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't an invisible demon about to eat your face
Several of the power lines bringing power in from Israel to Gaza were cut by Hamas rockets. Oh the irony!
And Hamas is hundreds of millions of dollars behind in paying their power bill. I get cut off if I'm behind a few months. Hamas gets a better deal from Israel than I get from my power company. Life just ain't fair.
I18N == Intergalacticization
The smuggling tunnels go from Egypt to Gaza.
The terror tunnels go from Gaza to Israel.
Pretty easy to tell them apart.
I18N == Intergalacticization
If Israel wanted to kill masses of Arabs, they would have. Instead, the populations of Gaza and the West Bank are soaring.
The Arabs are free to leave. There are practical difficulties, but the Israelis aren't preventing departure.
In Israel, Arabs and Druze have equal or nearly equal rights, and are judges, soldiers, lawyers, doctors, and businessmen. Arabic is one of Israel's national languages.
The acid test of whether criticism of Israel is really Jew hatred is if the standards applied to Israel are the same as for other countries. Compare the performance, for example, of Israeli air power on Gaza to the performance of American air power on Afghanistan. It turns out the ratio of civilians killed to bombs dropped is higher for the Americans.
I18N == Intergalacticization
The article you link to was from June 30. It was after then that Hamas increased its rocketing big time.
I18N == Intergalacticization
The table is a list of Palestinian rocket attacks on Israel. The first of the Hamas rockets was launched July 7. The attacks you list from earlier in the year were not conducted by Hamas. I know it can be hard to keep track of all the different parties here, but really, you could at least try.
Chuuch. Preach. Tabernacle.
The Israeli civilian population is about 20% Muslim/Arab. Can you explain to me why a tunnel connecting one Palestinian area (in Gaza) with an Israeli civilian population center (that has a significant Muslim/Arab minority) would not be used/useful for smuggling?
Chuuch. Preach. Tabernacle.
Now, why do I put such a subject header on my comment, when I know it will have me branded as 'anti-Semit' before I even start? Well, because it doesn't actually make much difference - as soon as anybody voices any concern over what Israel does to the Palestinians, they are stamped that way, no matter how carefully and well-intended their put their words. But maybe, just maybe, if I start out being provocative, I can get at least somebody in the automatically responding, pro-Israel faction to at least think and try to see the issue in a more nuanced way.
I am not against Israel's right to exist as a nation; I am pragmatic about it. The state that calls itself Israel is no doubt founded on a historically dubious justification, but it is a current reality and that is what we have to consider. But on the other hand, I don't think what Israel is doing is right, not by many miles. It is not right to annex palestinian territory - if it wasn't right of the European nations to establish colonies all over the world in the 18th and 19th centuries, then it isn't right for Israel to do this now.
And how can it be right for Israel to smash up Gaza's infrastructure, hospitals and schools, killing 10 - 100 Palestinians for every Israeli? The answer is of course, that it isn't. And the outcome in the long run is inevitably that Israel will erode the support it has in the rest of the world. The West has been far too permissive with Israel, because of a long, bad conscience for the Holocaust; but the power of Europe and America is on the wane, and the new powers don't have that historical background. At some point you guys will lose all your allies - what will you do then?
Most of us criticise Israel because we care, and because we expect that you can do so much better - if only you would try. But arguing with you is like arguing with Scientology or Jehovah's Witnesses; there is no honest dialogue taking place. All you do is look for ways to mishear or misinterpret any criticism, and find ways to twist it around as a weapon. Sometimes I don't think you guys want friends in the world; sometimes I think you are addicted to this never ending conflict, because if it ends, you have to look at yourselves and see what miserable creatures you have become; caricatures of the evil bullies that broke you during the Holocaust.
Like the 13-year strategy of rocket attacks against civilian targets that Hamas has pursued in violation of international law?
This is a red-herring for two reasons.
First, your portrayal of Hamas' rocket fire is inaccurate. While it is true that various actors within Gaza have been responsible for a low but continuous level of rocket attacks into Israel for a very long time, to pin the blame on Hamas is disingenuous. This year, for example, the first Hamas rocket to be fired into Israel was launched July 7 in retaliation for the live burning of a Palestinian teenager in East Jeruslam as well as the Israeli abduction of recently-released Palestinian prisoners. It's not like Hamas just keeps firing rockets just because "Jews!", although it is clear that there are other Palestinians in Gaza who do indeed do just that. Additionally, it is unreasonable to expect Hamas to be able to effectively police Gaza if they're subject to assassination, air strikes, and periodic ground assaults by Israel.
Second, you mention civilian targets. Unfortunately (or fortunately?), Hamas does not have targeting capabilities on any of their rockets. At all. The rockets are fired indiscriminately at Israel. Hamas rockets do not target civilians, they target "North". If Israel is unhappy with this arrangement, I'm sure Hamas will be more than willing to accept delivery of rockets that do have targeting capabilities. Of course, Hamas also has the option of sitting back and doing nothing until the day that they do gain targeting capabilities. However, that's not likely to happen. In any case, it's inaccurate to claim that Hamas targets civilians with their rockets, as this is simply not possible.
I think Israel, like Hamas, has figured out that international law is largely toothless.
This point we can both agree on.
Chuuch. Preach. Tabernacle.
Congratulations, you have discovered the tautology. Bad news, though: dovf beat you to it. I guess now it's down to who can get to the patent office first!
Chuuch. Preach. Tabernacle.
So you're saying that those rockets were sent flying into Israel by Palestinian rocket hobbyists working within Gaza but not under the direct supervision of Hamas rocket professionals? Sounds dangerous, those folks could get hurt playing around like that.
who would you vote for, if you were in their shoes? I mean, really, who?
I'm not an expert, so I'm just going by Wikipedia. Wikipedia says:
In 1994, Israel granted the right of self-governance to Gaza through the Palestinian Authority.
Wow, 20 years ago. And yet even today, the government of Gaza doesn't have control over its own border crossings. The government of Gaza doesn't have control over its own territorial waters. The government of Gaza doesn't have control over its own airspace. The government of Gaza doesn't have control over its own RF spectrum. That's Gaza, but shit, let's not forget, even the government of the West Bank isn't sovereign, instead existing only as far as Israel allows. The PA government exercises sovereignty over 3% of the West Bank. In Gaza, this figure is 0%.
Hamas's charter prominently features a quote from Mohammed about this (and specificially calling for death to Jews).
I contested this claim in detail here. At the risk of seeming pedantic, no, the Hamas charter calls for violent reclamation of Muslim holy sites and land that was consecrated to Allah/Muslims. If we can be precise with our words, the Hamas charter does not specifically call for death to Jews. It, at best, implies that the killing of Jews will likely be required to recapture the territory in question. Both sides in this conflict are committing enough atrocities that there's really no need to make up falsehoods to cast them in a bad light. Your claim that Hamas wants nothing more than "death to Jews" is particularly insidious because it dehumanizes Palestinians and promotes or justifies their current and continuing oppression.
But even if I accepted that Gaza has very real grievances that are worthy of a state of war, I do not condone the tactics used by Hamas.
Agreed. But that doesn't mean you need to turn a blind eye to the tactics used by Israel.
I don't see how Israel can be expected to just accept a state of perpetual war with Gaza.
Agreed, but I also don't see how Gaza can be expected to just accept a state of perpetual subjugation by Israel.
My point is that both sides are wrong. We need to stop focusing on why the "other" side is "more wrong" and accept that, quite simply, both sides are wrong. Until we can do that, we're wasting time and lives.
Chuuch. Preach. Tabernacle.
A small step for a person, a giant leap for mankind. In god we trust, etc etc
Perhaps you're not aware of this, but there are several Palestinian militant groups. While Hamas has a clear interest in establishing and maintaining a monopoly on violent force in Gaza, they have been unable to achieve this goal at least in part because Israel prevents them from gaining too much power.
Chuuch. Preach. Tabernacle.
But Hamas will literally stop at nothing, while Israel is at least trying to minimize civilian casualties (warning people to get out of buildings, etc.). Hamas won't even honor humanitarian ceasefires [townhall.com].
Don't you see? This very mentality is the very reason that this conflict is so intractable. "Sure, we're not perfect, but look at them!" is all we've been hearing since this whole mess started over a century ago. What you don't understand is that both sides have a virtually limitless supply of counter-arguments. For example, you say Israel is "better" because they at least try to minimize civilian casualties. Is this consistent with that claim? What about this? Are you still so sure about Israeli concern for the sanctity of life? Of course, you'll have no trouble digging up countless stories of horrors committed by Hamas. And so the world turns, and we're back where we started. Nowhere.
Neither side is perfect, but I reject any claims of moral equivalence between the two sides.
No moral equivalence here. But in the end, it is not productive to keep pointing at them to justify further violence on our part, regardless of which side we're talking about. There will be no end to this conflict until both sides can agree that both sides are wrong.
Chuuch. Preach. Tabernacle.
Sort of like the "Crips" versus the "Bloods" gangs in the US, eh?
Those wacky Palestinian terrorists, one never knows which of them will turn up to launch rockets from a schoolyard.
Sort of like the "Crips" versus the "Bloods" gangs in the US, eh?
Sort of. Well, it would be more like the Crips versus the Bloods but with the Latin Kings policing the country instead of actual cops. Would it make sense to hold the Latin Kings responsible for attacks launched by the Bloods? Particularly if we didn't allow the Latin Kings to become powerful enough to actually police the other gangs?
Those wacky Palestinian terrorists, one never knows which of them will turn up to launch rockets from a schoolyard.
It seems like you said this half jokingly. However, as far as I can tell, they don't launch rockets from schoolyards. On two occasions, rocket stockpiles were found in two unused school buildings. Rockets were never launched from the vicinity of an active school. If you actually try to research this oft-repeated allegation, you'll find that there's a huge amount of disinformation from both sides. It's disheartening.
Chuuch. Preach. Tabernacle.
Youtube can be such a waste of time, but:
"Hamas Terrorists Fire Rockets from a Gazan School"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-fh-fRs7To
And it was previously two UNRWA schools in which rockets had been found stored, and then returned to their owners by the glorious UNRWA staff. But today it's three:
http://af.reuters.com/article/egyptNews/idAFL6N0Q45TO20140729
Ah, but why dwell on the numbers? If you have a cache of rocket bombs, and the school has an empty space next to the kindergarten, what possible harm could there be in storing those rockets in the empty space? It's not like they could blow up or anything.
Israel has shown that they would accept a two-state solution. Hamas has written the destruction of Israel into their charter.
Indeed, you bring up a valid point. Israel has at least pretended to be interested in a two-state solution (although this can be sersiously questioned, what with the attacks the unleashed in response to the formation of a unity government in Palestine, etc.), whereas Hamas has been quite clear about wanting to eliminate any "Jewish State" that exists on land consecrated to Allah. Clearly this won't work.
Don't you believe that Hamas means what it says?
No. I also don't believe that Israel means what it says. A cursory history of international diplomacy should make it clear that one should never believe anyone means what they say. In the context of Hamas and Israel, I'm not even convinced that the senior leadership of Hamas actually harbors any hatred towards Jews. I'm more of the opinion that Hamas is in it for Hamas, and their primary (perhaps only) goal is to gain and retain power. It's entirely possible (and even likely) that they merely stoke bigotry among the Palestinian population to distract from domestic policy failures and give the populace an external enemy to focus their anger on. I see them as more of a power-hungry political organization than an ideological one, and I think such a view goes a lot further in being able to explain their motivations and actions as this conflict unfolds.
Also: ... samharris.org
Great link. My girlfriend sent it to me this morning. I agree with most of what Mr. Harris wrote. The one part that did rub me the wrong way, though, happens to be the very part you quote. Mr. Harris seems to be a reasonable person throughout his essay, but somehow has no problem brushing aside the fact that Israeli soldiers have been using Palestinian civilians as human shields. Consider the outrage when Palestinians use fellow Palestinians as human shields. Imagine the outrage if they were using Israeli civilians as human shields. Now reverse that situation and see how casually this atrocity is brushed aside. What the fuck, Sam?
Chuuch. Preach. Tabernacle.
"Hamas Terrorists Fire Rockets from a Gazan School"
I find this sad and dispicable. I tried looking up more information about the rockets that were launched from the Abu Nur school and haven't been able to find much. If you find anything, I'd appreciate if you could share. Most articles on the issue also mention rockets being launched from cemetaries in Gaza. Truly disgusting. I can only hope that the school was actually vacant when this was happening. However, I must mention that Gaza is one of the most densely populated areas on this planet, and it's not like Israel allows them to establish military bases. An unfortunate consequence of this is that anywhere they launch rockets from is a terrible location. Of course, that doesn't really excuse anything, it's still fucked up that this is happening.
And it was previously two UNRWA schools in which rockets had been found stored, and then returned to their owners by the glorious UNRWA staff.
Returned to their owners? Really? You really fell for that? Please, go find a citation for that. I hope you'll be pleasantly surprised when you discover that the rocket caches that were found were not given to Hamas militants, but instead were handed off to the Palestinian Authority government, which promptly destroyed them. Perhaps next time someone tells you a story that fits your preferred narrative a little too well, you'll be inclined to question it and inform yourself before you go on spreading the great news.
But today it's three
These fucks. I wish I could say I'm surprised. Hamas is one unbelievably fucked up organization.
Ah, but why dwell on the numbers? If you have a cache of rocket bombs, and the school has an empty space next to the kindergarten, what possible harm could there be in storing those rockets in the empty space? It's not like they could blow up or anything.
Sadly, if that actually had happened, Hamas would be scoring one hell of a PR victory, cameras getting close-ups of all the kindergartener body parts littering the area, blaming it on Israel. Thankfully, previous caches were all found in vacant schools, and presumably this one was vacant too. Not that that excuses the violation of UN property.
Chuuch. Preach. Tabernacle.
The point isn't that Hamas hasn't fired any rockets, the point is the claim that Israel is responding to rocketfire is a falsehood, when even Israeli officials admit it's the other way around.
Which territorial boundaries are you speaking about? Israel occupied Gaza between 1967 and 2005 and never annexed it. Since 2005, Israeli troops are only visiting Gaza periodically, after accumulating some threshold amount of noisy (and sometimes lethal) invitations from Hamas, but never stay there for a long time, as then the noise of rockets is joined by noise of that special kind of peace lovers who care about peace only if it gives them excuse to blame Jews; when Arabs kill Arabs in neighboring Syria, these peace lovers seem to be quiet and happy. And, do you indeed believe that we are enslaving Gazans by remote control? Really insightful!
You write, " I hope you'll be pleasantly surprised when you discover that the rocket caches that were found were not given to Hamas militants, but instead were handed off to the Palestinian Authority government, which promptly destroyed them."
But waitasec, didn't you say previously that Hamas is the governing body in Gaza? I know somebody said that. So you're saying that returning the rockets to Hamas wasn't giving them to Hamas? Or are you saying that the Hamas political entity won't pass Hamas ordinance on to the Hamas military entity?
And would you happen to have one of those shiny citations for the part where you say that Hamas "promptly destroyed them"? (Oh, I guess that may just be semantics though, because certainly firing them at Israel would lead to the ultimate destruction of the rockets, so I guess we're all good here.)
I'm a bit credulous when it comes to news reports, yes, so I "fell for that" as you say:
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/chief-alarmed-rockets-put-gaza-site-24685070
And then I happened across this article:
http://www.worldtribune.com/2014/07/23/un-acknowledges-facilities-gaza-used-store-hamas-rockets
So what do you think? When the "UNRWA staff were withdrawn from the premises, and so we are unable to confirm the precise number of rockets," who was it who took posession of those rockets? Why was UNRWA staff withdrawn?
And when a news report says, as it often does, that news media were barred (by Hamas) from the site of a blast, do you think it's because Hamas doesn't want them showing the Israeli shell that hit the location, or the Hamas rocket that went astray and hit a Gaza schoolhouse instead of an Israeli schoolhouse?
What, O wise ./ readers, do you think would happen if Israel simply tore down the walls, removed all checkpoints, and allowed any Palestinian who wanted into Israel to just walk, drive, or ride on in, followed by an apology for their use of force and a promise that future violence would be handled by the police and not the military? I think the one thing everyone can agree on is that what they've been doing so far hasn't worked (on both sides). Maybe something flat out crazy should be tried instead; take a few hits to the jaw to show they're serious about peace. I don't think most people in Palestine would think it a sign of weakness and begin their own genocide, despite any charters or lunatic fringe snippets about "killing every Jew", etc. The vast majority of Palestinians aren't savages, and the real terrorists would lose any reason for further support by the Palestinians. Yes, there would be more terrorist attacks in the short-term inside Israel, but those deaths could be the price for an end to a cycle of perpetual violence.
Buy your next Linux PC at eightvirtues.com
Survivors of massacre in Khuza’a say Israeli forces used Palestinians as human shields
Khuza’a is a village in the very eastern part of Khan Younis adjacent to the border fencein the southern Gaza strip. Its farmers have faced death almost on a daily basis in the past 7 years as Israeli gunfire has become the norm along the buffer zone between Gaza and Israel.
Following the Shuja’iyehmassacre, Israeli forces invaded Khuza’a withaerial strikes targeting any moving object. Survivors recall with horror thatseemingly heavy random tank fire led to the killing of dozens, injuring dozens others.
Over 150 of its residents were arrested by Israeli forces. Most of them were released, others are still in detention. Rescue calls were made live on the local radio stations, as many residents were besieged in their homes, unable to leave. Those who managed to leave came under fire as they were fleeing.
Ayman Abu Toaimah, 32, a resident of Khuza’arecalls,“As Israeli invading troops advanced to the village they besieged it and used residents as human shields. When the Israeli army arrested people and then released some of them, they were told they are free to go back to the village, but as they were fleeing they came under fire and some of them shot dead. These people were used as human shields.”
Abu Saleem, 56, a resident of Khuza’aechoedAbu Toaimah,“Israelis claim that Hamas is using us as human shields– how? This is a lie, we do not see fighters in the streets. It’s them, the Israelis who used us as human shields in Khuza’a and Shuja’iyeh. They turned our houses into military posts, terrified residents in the houses. They attacked innocent civilians with their bombs, and missiles, they attacked chicken farms, they burned our crops, they have no mercy.”
What happened in Khuza’a was a massacre. Civilians were killed in their homes and while they were fleeing. Even ambulances were not immune. Paramedics report that Israeli forces stopped ambulances that were trying to reach casualties and tried to arrest a number of wounded. Ambulances came under fire despite the coordination by the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC). Scenes of dead bodies scattered in the streets reminiscent ofthe Sabra and Shatila massacre that took place in two Palestinian refugee camps in 1982 have begun to leak out of the village.
Abu Ali Qudail a resident of Khuza’a said: “When the ICRC told us that ambulances are waiting usat the entrance of the village from the western side, about 1,000 people rushed to leave their homes, some of which were used as a hideout for Israeli forces. As people were leaving they were surprised that the ambulances were not there, and as we were waiting tank shells rained down on our heads.”
Many people were killed, many others injured. Survivors say they could not help the wounded, many were still under the rubble, homes were destroyed and the smell of smoke and bombs was everywhere.
Abu Ali Qudail continued: “I was watching members of my family dying in front of me, some of them were torn to pieces. Rami, Ibrahim, Alia, Haj Abed died..we had to leave them behind, as soon as we reached one of the Khan Younis schools we entered it to seek shelter but it was very crowded with people who fled their homes. It’s hard to see people dying and you do not know what to do. One of my relatives’ homes were struck while they were inside.”
As the all-out Israeli assault on Gaza entered its 19th day, John Kerry announced from Cairo that he proposed a one week ceasefire, but Israel’s PM Netanyahu refused the offer and only agreed to a 12-hour lull.
Ma’an News reports on one family thatfled Khuza’a andwas then killed by an Israeli missile strike in Khan Younis as the ceasefire went into effect:
"Flyin' in just a sweet place,
Never been known to fail..."
First, your portrayal of Hamas' rocket fire is inaccurate. While it is true that various actors within Gaza have been responsible for a low but continuous level of rocket attacks into Israel for a very long time, to pin the blame on Hamas is disingenuous.
Yes, I'm sure Hamas is in no way encouraging or endorsing missile attacks on Israel by groups other than itself. That's why it erected a monument to them. Obviously, they'd love nothing more than to round up those malcontents and arrest them - it's just the Israeli attacks against them in response to those rocket attacks that have prevented them from doing so in the last 13 years.
Second, you mention civilian targets. Unfortunately (or fortunately?), Hamas does not have targeting capabilities on any of their rockets. At all. The rockets are fired indiscriminately at Israel.
Well, I don't dispute that, given that Palestinian rockets not infrequently misfire and blow up their own citizens. But if you're randomly shooting a handgun into a group of a thousand people and one soldier, as far as I'm concerned, you're targeting civilians. The fact that they're firing rockets more or less randomly into a largely-civilian area hardly absolves them from shooting at civilians.
If Israel is unhappy with this arrangement, I'm sure Hamas will be more than willing to accept delivery of rockets that do have targeting capabilities.
Israel has been delivering such rockets for the last few days now.
Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't an invisible demon about to eat your face
1) Let's be clear Hamas has indiscriminantly launched thousands of rockets into Israel. Israel has responded with attacks that they KNOW will result in SOME civilian casualties. The IDF can certainly claim they attempt to minimize civilian harm but by attacking the power plant it is undeniable that they are attempting to end the conflict by making Gaza more unlivable . . . as if that place could get worse. But the price will be paid by the civilian population. It's a fascinating cycle of violence where BOTH sides are responsible for their own behavior yet persist in blaming the other for EVERYTHING. 2) Some people are conflating how Israel treats Gaza/West Bank and how they treat Arabs that live within Israel's borders. Many (if not most) countries lack significant compassion for non-citizens outside their borders but Israeli Arabs are indeed treated as 2nd (or 3rd) class citizens. Could you imagine your parents, grandparents and great grandparents being born somewhere and then a 'country' gets 'created' yet your rights are less due to your religion/ethnicity? It's not apartheid but it's certainly immoral. Israel excuses this behavior by saying allowing full rights to Israeli Arabs would lead to the loss of the 'Jewish nation' within a few generations. Sound familiar? Once you develop the ability to see your neighbor as 'other', almost any behavior becomes excusable in pursuit of what you believe to be the 'greater good' or 'lesser evil'.
[UNRWA spokesman Chris] Gunness said he didn’t see an issue with the handover, because the local authorities who took control of the rockets reported to the Palestinian government in Ramallah, not to Hamas, which heads the government and runs the police force in Gaza.
“According to longstanding UN practice in UN humanitarian operations worldwide, incidents involving unexploded ordnance that could endanger beneficiaries and staff are referred to the local authorities,” Gunness told The Daily Beast in a statement. “Local authorities fall under the government of national consensus in Ramallah. They pledged to pass a message to all parties not to violate UNRWA neutrality.”
“As far as we are concerned, the government that we are dealing with now is the government of national consensus and they have authority over the organization that we dealt with for getting rid of these rockets from our school,” he said. “We handed them over to the relevant authorities, and that organization, as it were, the experts that came and did it, are under the government of national consensus in Ramallah.”
Citation.
From that same article:
The fate of the rockets is now unknown. While the Gaza police is almost certainly under Hamas’ sway, it’s an open question to what degree any individual police unit cooperates with Hamas’ irregular army. An Israeli official said the Israeli government is working now to try to confirm that Hamas had taken back the rockets and put them back into circulation.
Israeli officials and experts told The Daily Beast there is no doubt that local authorities in Gaza, including but not limited to the police, are loyal to Hamas.
See? Perhaps you've only been reading the Israeli side of the news, as their politicians are tripping over each other to continue these baseless accusations, trying to spin suspicion as fact. Their authorities are still trying to confirm their suspicions, but they have "no doubt" about what happened. This further illustrates the need to consult a wide variety of news sources if one seeks to learn objective truth about any controversial subject. Now, perhaps you have some inside information that would shed some light on this issue. If so, you haven't presented it yet. This seems like a good time for me to mention that it's incredibly sad that The Daily Beast (of Newsweek fame) is offering some of the most comprehensive coverage of this issue (as far as mainstream media goes, at least).
The second incident where rockets were found at a vacant UNRWA is indeed problematic, as UN staff were evacuated before the rockets could be properly disposed of. I haven't seen much information about that event in the press, but nothing I've seen would suggest that anyone at the UN gave rockets to Hamas.
The World Tribune article you link to contains factual errors ("The UN did not say how many rockets were found or what was done with them" is inconsistent with the quote from the UNRWA spokesman I provided above), and it seems likely that John Baird's comments refer to reports issued by Israeli politicians. If you're aware of any reports from unbiased third parties that corroborate the Israeli claims, I'm eager to see them.
Chuuch. Preach. Tabernacle.
Yes, I'm sure Hamas is in no way encouraging or endorsing missile attacks on Israel by groups other than itself. That's why it erected a monument [demotix.com] to them. Obviously, they'd love nothing more than to round up those malcontents and arrest them - it's just the Israeli attacks against them in response to those rocket attacks that have prevented them from doing so in the last 13 years.
Your ignorance of the area is astounding. Hamas regularly engages in violence against other groups that may pose a threat to their dominance. Perhaps you think they're just some idealistic Jew-haters, but the reality is that they're a power-hungry political organization determined to dominate Gaza (and greater Israel, according to their charter). You may remember when they routed Fatah from Gaza back in 2006-2007, where hundreds were killed, and thousands more injured. This was not an isolated incident (although it was much larger than any other internal conflicts). Hamas does not generally encourage or endorse independent rocket attacks on Israel as they compromise Hamas' monopoly on violent capabilities. The monument that you link to is a symbol of the resistance against Israel, since rockets are Hamas' weapon of choice ever since the Israeli wall has limited the utility of suicide bombers. I don't see how a rocket monument implies that Hamas wants other groups to challenge their superiority. Indeed, Hamas would love nothing more than to round up their competition and execute them (arrest? ha!). The Israeli attacks on Gaza are the primary reason why Hamas has only partially been able to achieve this goal.
Israel has been delivering such rockets for the last few days now.
Good one. I'm glad to see people still have it in them to make jokes about the killing of hundreds of innocent civilians.
Chuuch. Preach. Tabernacle.
Review, Refine, Rewrite Quran/Torah.
Casteism
This has been a very interesting conversation for me NoImNotNineVolt and I get a sense you are honestly trying to understand the issues rather than to simply propagandize for a terrorist organization that has purposefully placed its own civilian population in harm's way to gain international sympathy when that population is harmed. However you appear to be bending far over backwards to avoid confronting full recognition of the Hamas strategy and the complicity of UNRWA.
The UNRWA spokesperson you quote, Chris Gunness, is according to what I have read from him over the years either aligned with Hamas or as the saying goes, a "useful idiot" for them.
Let's look at Mr. Gunness' prevarications.
"'According to longstanding UN practice in UN humanitarian operations worldwide, incidents involving unexploded ordnance that could endanger beneficiaries and staff are referred to the local authorities,' Gunness told The Daily Beast in a statement. 'Local authorities fall under the government of national consensus in Ramallah. They pledged to pass a message to all parties not to violate UNRWA neutrality.'
"'As far as we are concerned, the government that we are dealing with now is the government of national consensus and they have authority over the organization that we dealt with for getting rid of these rockets from our school,' he said. 'We handed them over to the relevant authorities, and that organization, as it were, the experts that came and did it, are under the government of national consensus in Ramallah.'"
The "government of national consensus in Ramallah"; Mr. Gunness likes that phrase so much he repeats it over and over. This is the Fatah organization whose members have been tortured and murdered by Hamas. So UNRWA handed the rockets over to "local authorities", i.e., Hamas, but not to worry - those local authorities report to the folks they murder whenever possible.
The Daily Beast article you quote from states: "UNRWA has opened an investigation into the rockets found in its school in July but may not release all of its findings. 'When our report comes out, we will take a decision on what we will release,' Gunness said." Thus, UNRWA is "investigating", will write a "report" on their findings, but "may not release all of" the findings. I call "bullshit" on Mr. Gunness.
That same article goes on to state: "UNRWA had other options, though. The agency isn't in the ordnance disposal business, of course. But it could have turned the rockets over to a third party. It could have closed off the school until another international organization with ordnance disposal skills secured the area." and "The fate of the rockets is now unknown."
Quoting that Daily Beast article again: "In a statement on July 17, UNRWA condemned the storing of rockets in the school and called the incident the 'first of its kind' in the Gaza Strip. In November 2012, UNRWA denied claims by the IDF that Hamas was using UNRWA facilities to store and fire rockets." Then of course there was the second "discovery" of its kind a few days later, and then the third a couple of days ago. Do you think that perhaps Mr. Gunness is beginning to see a pattern emerging? Probably so, because despite that investigation that UNRWA will be making, they "may not release all of its findings". Of course they won't, they are protecting Hamas in the arena of world opinion, and they don't have much to work with besides cover-up.
Finally you write, unsurprisingly given your bend-over-backwards acceptance of the circumlocutions provided by bullshit artist Chris Gunness, "Probably the latter, but do you feel that this excuses Israel's war crimes? Do two wrongs now make a right?" I'll tell you my friend, that war is hell, and Hamas purposely makes it more hellish for the citizens of Gaza so that Hamas can reap the propaganda benefit of world outrage when photographs of dead and injured children appear in the news media. And I'll tell you further that the humanitarian restraint demonstrated by Israel time and time again heartens me that it is possible for humanity to stand on a higher moral ground even in the midst of bloody war against an enemy whose tactics are immoral, are in fact, evil.
I'll tell you my friend, that war is hell, and Hamas purposely makes it more hellish for the citizens of Gaza so that Hamas can reap the propaganda benefit of world outrage when photographs of dead and injured children appear in the news media.
Indeed. But that's why it's even more important to resist attempts at embellishing their depravity. Hamas does enough inarguably horrible things that we don't need to make questionable claims about them (like alleging a conspiracy between them and the UN) that could cause reasonable third parties to say "There's some batshit crazy claims being made about Hamas, so how do I know all the other horrendous things I hear about aren't falsehoods as well?"
And I'll tell you further that the humanitarian restraint demonstrated by Israel time and time again heartens me that it is possible for humanity to stand on a higher moral ground even in the midst of bloody war against an enemy whose tactics are immoral, are in fact, evil.
This is something I can't understand. An overwhelming majority of people that denounce Hamas then turn around and defend Israel in the same breath. Personally, I'm very critical of both, having been exposed to incontrovertible proof of war crimes on both sides. Note, I don't attempt to argue for any sort of moral equivalence, mostly because I find it to be a disheartening exercise when the horrors run so deep on both sides (not to mention the lack of reliable reporting by unbiased third parties). I invite you to step away from the "us v them" mentality that is so pervasive in this conflict and accept that it's okay to abhor Hamas without loving Israel. Denunciation of either side is not the same as support for the other. I agree, Israel is demonstrating restraint. They could just march through Gaza killing every last brownskin, and they haven't. But in some sense, Hamas has also shown restraint, since they haven't slaughtered every last Palestinian infant to manufacture even more footage of "Israel's bloodlust" for the evening news. The fact that both sides could go further in their depravity doesn't comfort me much, and I wouldn't really call that humanitarian restraint.
It brings me no joy to tell you that the IDF have been using Palestinian civilians as human shields, having them enter structures ahead of IDF troops, often with IDF soldiers resting their rifle barrels on the shoulders of the Palestinians. They've been using Palestinian civilians (
Chuuch. Preach. Tabernacle.
I am saddened to read your most recent addition to our conversation here. Where to begin? Perhaps at the point where you insinuated that Israel's plight in Gaza might lead them to chose to, well, here are your own words:
"They could just march through Gaza killing every last brownskin, and they haven't."
This pathetic bit of race-baiting has been frequently bandied about by those who hope to use the "racial" sensitivities of their intended audience to fuel their attempts at demonization of Israel in her trials with her Arab neighbors. And of course it fits well with that other slander of "apartheid". Well, what of it? How do Israelis stack up, "racially" speaking, against their neighbors? Let's go to Wikipedia because it's so easily accessible to us:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_people
Surprised?
Let me reiterate the first sentence so that there is no mistaking it:
In recent years, many genetic studies have demonstrated that, at least paternally, most of the various Jewish ethnic divisions and the Palestinians ... are genetically closer to each other than the Palestinians or European Jews to non-Jewish Europeans.
I'll bet you didn't know that. You saw suntans in Gaza and thought, well, you wrote what you thought, friend, but there are some pretty deep suntans in Israel also.
Alas for the hate-mongers, the genetics don't jibe with the libelous claims of "white" Israelis killing "brownskin" Palistinians.
For the record, I didn't mean to imply some racial disparity between Israelis and the Palestinians they're killing (or refraining from killing). I use the term 'brownskins' to refer to Arabs, but I don't mean to suggest that Indians, Mexicans, or yes, even Jews are any less brown. This being the first time anyone has called me out for it, I'll consider changing my wording in the future.
I used to question the immediacy of the Ashkenazi Jewish link to a Middle Eastern origin, as they tend to be whiter than many Northern Europeans. I was convinced that European Jews were more European than Jewish, based solely on the fact that they really don't look like they're from the Middle East (primarily based on skin color, sensitivity to intense sunlight, and other superficial factors). After many debates on this issue with my girlfriend (who happens to be half Ashkenazi Jew herself), I've become less ignorant on the issue, having read countless studies on the geneology of Jews, specifically Ashkenazi Jews. I was surprised to learn that it doesn't take very long for a people to turn white. Meanwhile, she was surprised to learn that genetic studies have shown that the matrilineal continuity of Jewishness may not be present in the European Jewish population (it looks like Jewish men arrived in Europe and took indigenous wives). Anyway, these studies also established that yes, indeed, members of the Jewish diaspora are more genetically similar to each other than to their host populations. Based on this fact, I'm not surprised that the [relatively genetically-homogeneous] Jews, who are all originally from the Middle East, are genetically similar to other Middle Eastern people.
Either way, I wasn't trying to portray this as some sort of white-on-brown conflict. I was merely trying to vary my word choice, and I use 'brownskins' in place of "Palestinians" or "Arabs" in a handful of my other posts as well. My apologies for the misunderstanding. Also, I've been sharing these posts with my girlfriend, and she didn't object to my usage of brownskins in that one (and she's rather sensitive and constantly accusing me of being too offensive), for whatever that's worth.
Chuuch. Preach. Tabernacle.
Good god, people. Just stop the madness! A pox on both your houses.
Every time that things flare up between the Palestinians and the Israelis, everyone hops on top of their soap box and starts ranting and raving about how bad the other side is in this conflict, and how high and noble their own cause is.
I just wish that some brave people from both sides of this seemingly endless conflict would be bold enough to lead and make the moves necessary to end all of this killing. It takes two sides to keep this cycle of killing going, so nobody has a moral high road to take in the current situation.
Israel : You can't go on treating the Palestinians like pariahs in their own land. And stop telling me that they bring it on themselves. Their actions are somewhat understandable (not justifiable) given how they are treated.
Palestine : Just recognize the fact that Israel is here to stay, and learn to live side-by-side. They're not going anywhere, so stop pretending that you can make them go away with all of your violence.
I just pray that there are those with bold vision and strong hearts on both sides who can find the common ground necessary to stop this death and destruction.
A prominent Israeli rabbi, Dov Lior with tens of thousands of followers, urged soldiers to “not to hesitate to shoot and kill enemy civilians, including children”.
“There is no such a thing as enemy civilians in war,” the cannibalistic rabbi said.
Kasher churned out elaborate manifestoes justifying Israel’s tactics during Lebanon II and Operation Cast Lead. Kasher’s concepts of warfare are best defined by his explicit justifications for killing unarmed civilians in any instance when an Israeli soldier believed that they were in danger.
http://maxblumenthal.com/2011/03/after-itamar-exploring-the-logic-that-makes-everyone-a-target/
http://maxblumenthal.com/2010/08/how-to-kill-goyim-and-influence-people-leading-israeli-rabbis-defend-manual-for-for-killing-non-jews/
"Flyin' in just a sweet place,
Never been known to fail..."
How is launching a missile across the border in any way comparable to recognizing a non-existent sovereignty?
They are comparable due to the principle of causality. One is the result of the other. Or are you saying that it's a chicken-and-egg problem, and that we should expect Hamas to step up and break the cycle because Israel is unable/unwilling?
One is attempted murder. The other is a legal dispute.
Manslaughter at best. But it is interesting how a "legal dispute" can kill orders of magnitude more people than your "attempted murder", isn't it?
Show me attempted murder in the checkpoints.
I suppose being crushed to death in an Israeli checkpoint while on your way to work doesn't count? Perhaps when they gunned down a Jordanian judge? Surely he was some radical militant trying to grab a gun from a poor IDF soldier. Palestinians are murdered at these checkpoints every day. There's no need for the "attempted" modifier.
Kidnapping, ransom, and murder of innocent Israeli citizens are all cheered in the Gaza strip. Checkpoints and blockades are a rational response.
Sure, and war crimes against Palestinians are cheered in Israel. Firing rockets is a rational response.
And, of course, Israel provides the Gazans with free power as well.
I suppose this is as good a time as any to summon Godwin. I hear Hitler provided the Jews with free clothing and shelter during WW2.
Imagine asking Gazans to return the favor in any way!
What we're witnessing is just that. Gazans trying to return the favor.
Chuuch. Preach. Tabernacle.