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China Confirms New Generation of ICBM
Taco Cowboy (5327) writes with news of the Chinese military's latest toy, an ICBM capable of delivering multiple warheads across the Pacific. From the article: The DF-41 is designed to have a range of 12,000 kilometers (7,500 miles), according to a report by Jane's Strategic Weapon Systems, putting it among the world's longest-range missiles. ... It is "possibly capable of carrying multiple independently targetable re-entry vehicles", the U.S. Defense Department said in a report in June, referring to a payload of several nuclear warheads. It also quoted a Chinese military analyst as saying: "As the U.S. continues to strengthen its missile defense system, developing third generation nuclear weapons capable of carrying multiple warheads is the trend." China's previous longest range missile was the DF-5A, which can carry a single warhead as far as 12,000 km, according to Jane's.
Missile defense shield sounds kind of useless now. China felt the need to develop a weapon that could penetrate such a shield. I wonder why.
I thought you were moving out, after those last couple "incidents" with the island. No, don't get angry, it's just that you never pay your rent, and you break everything.
I know, we depended on you a lot during that whole spat we had with USSR, but come on, you never do any chores, you just sit there threatening us until one of us decides it's easier to do it than put up with your shit.
This missile development effort has been known of since forever. Pictures of the TEL has even showed up. What has not been made public is if the missile is fully operational and deployed or not. The Chinese have also not displayed DF-41 in the National Day parade either.
This article brings nothing new as there is still no official report of it being operational.
someone remind me again... they're the bad guys, and we're the good guys, right? it's all so confusing sometimes - i don't always know when i'm meant to be properly scared into fully thinking and doing what i'm told. the news generally does a good job, but sometimes i wish Vince McMahon were put in charge of all news... life was so much simpler when it was Hulk Hogan vs. the Iron Sheikh.
All current missile defense shields are kind of useless.
China felt the need to achieve military parity.
Developing ICBM technology comes with Rocketry and is simply a prerequisite for Space Flight.
"Kill 'em all and let Root sort 'em out"
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It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
Doesn't matter what you do, you're still in the holodeck.
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Nuclear proliferation is becoming to sound like the plot to some absurdist classic Star Trek episode.
The leaders of all the planets' nations sit in a room, arrayed in a circle. The room is white and completely bare, except for their chairs, and in the center of the room a single gleaming, chromed post rising from the floor about 3 feet tall. Atop the shiny post is a single large, tennis-ball sized red button.
It is widely accepted among all the leaders that pressing the button activates a mechanism that destroys the planet. Yet this doesn't stop them from rising from their chairs, and arguing - yelling, taunting even - other leaders around the circle, so enraging them that at times several of them are close to snapping, rushing forward and pounding the red button.
Because at the end of the day, the leaders are all flawed human beings, driven by the psychological baggage of behavioral evolutionary holdovers, cultural and religious constructs, and overwhelmingly the inability to view the other participants in the room as peers equally deserving of resources as the tribes represented by the leaders.
Sooner or later, someone - in a moment of hubris, misplaced confidence in their own technology or military, or religious zeal - is going to dash out of their chair and smack that button.
THIS SPACE INTENTIONALLY LEFT BLANK.
I'm guessing your trolling. The trident is definitely a MIRV system. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T...
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Obama has already wagged his finger at them and double dog dared them to defy him. No worries.
Aside from our plethora of Trident II missiles deployed in our nuclear missile submarines that utilize MIRVs. America has never been really into land based ICBMs and we don't deploy land-based ICBM MIRVs although the Minuteman III is MIRV capable. We've always prefer air launched (bomber) and submarine launched nuclear weapons. It was the Russians that really dove into land-based ICBMs and the big thing we were always concerned with during SALT and START treaties was the Russians increasing the throw-weight of their land based ICBMs.
"Lack of speed can be overcome. In the worst case by patience." --Znork
I think it was done already, multi headed ICBM's were in the 1960's. I guess we should go to yellow alert? (pun intended)
After all, so many here have pointed out that China only has 300 warheads, 700 at the most.
And as the far left wingers know, there is no way that they are in active production that enables them to put 600 warheads on their subs (100-160 warheads / sub, with 3 subs currently, and another 5-6 coming ), another 500-1000 in their planes, and another 1000 on land-based ICBM (i.e. 100 missiles).
So, yeah, I have no doubt that the far left is right.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
These are not in silos. These are truck launched that will be hidden in their 3000 mile long underground tunnel.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
I would feel just fine if China was doing nothing but nukes. However trying to hide them, along with developing systems to take out spy and comm sats makes me a lot more nervous. The reason is that when you are hiding things and wanting to take our our ability to verify what they are up to, that indicates that they are up to a first strike planning.
With the Soviet, we and them were committed to MAD. IOW, we really did not want to go to war because we really saw it as unwinnable. Many of Chinese leaders, esp. in the military, see nuke war as winnable. The ONLY way that it is winnable is if you launch first and destroy the enemies ability to verify what you are up to.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
MIRV is neither defensive or offensive. OTOH, the ability to take out an enemies comm and spying network IS first strike.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
Lasers and Rail guns. In addition, I have to wonder with CHina's actions esp. in space, what reactions the west is taking?
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
Not only must it include CHina, but their allies. In particular, North Korea, Burma, Iran, and Venezuela.
Basically, China is in the process of building their own NATO with a quiet spread out system.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
Actually, they are 'borrowing' much of that technology from the west, israel, and Russia, and simply building it.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
Don't worry, its just their way of competing against Amazon's droid delivery service.
You're missing one critical piece in this example: the red button doesn't destroy the planet, it sends a message to other humans outside the room to destroy the planet.
This is how I understand both the US and Russian system to function, but I don't know about the Chinese system. I would hope the designers of these systems realize that leaving this decision up to a politician alone is not the right answer, as the other systems have recognized.
Grammer Nazis - I mod you "troll" unless you actually add something on-topic. Yes, I know I have mispellings in my sig.
Funny, isn't it? But Lenin foresaw it exactly, when he remarked "the capitalists will sell us the rope with which we hang them".
I am sure that there are many other solipsists out there.
http://thebulletin.org/iron-do...
"Kill 'em all and let Root sort 'em out"
... version 41is better than 5A?
It little behooves the best of us to comment on the rest of us.
The multi warhead capable assertion is lame. It's just a matter of the weight the missle is capable of delivering. Since the miniaturization of thermonuclear war heads has been done years ago, this is silly. A W-88 warhead in the US arsenal weighs little enough to be transported on an appliance dolly for heavens sake.
Oh, yeah! Wise guy, huh? Woob woob woob woob! Nyuk! Nyuk!
... developed weapons specifically ranged to reach US? Nice.
It could also solve their over-population problems as well.
the US does not have MIRVs,
Yeah, except for the Minuteman III, the Trident SLBMs, and the now retired Peacekeeper/MX. You know, only 100% of the US ICBM force.
Slashdot still doesnâ(TM)t support Unicode after it was added to the HTML standard in 1997.
MIRV has nothing to do with first strike. It has everything to do with making anti-ballistic missile systems entirely ineffective.
Slashdot still doesnâ(TM)t support Unicode after it was added to the HTML standard in 1997.
The Israelis have a solution to that. Bomb everything in and around the tunnels.
Rooster
The problem with that is the question of what's considered a "use".
Is the use of a small backpack nuke enough to justify an all-out assault? What about a dirty bomb set off by a state-sponsored terrorist? If a country starts a campaign using thousands of conventional explosive bombs against Chinese targets, is that enough for China to retaliate with a nuke?
It is a fallacy to assume that we will always fall down the slippery slope, but it is also a fallacy to assume that we can't.
You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
Or like the fake Polish radio station assault Hitler staged to justify the invasion of Poland. "Look, look! Somebody nuked us! Don't question how a U.S. operative with a suitcase nuke managed to get into [insert disposable Chinese metropolitan area], get out the codes, you fool!!"
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Less than a couple of miles of tunnels in a VERY tight 10 mile area, is easy compared to going after 3000 miles of tunnel.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
His argument is based on looking at contrails and comparing them to his guess as to the best angle of intercept, then theorizing about what might happen. What actually HAS happened is that thousands of rockets have been fired at Israel and no-one has been killed by them.
The video game franchise "Fallout" is all I'm thinking when seeing news like this. In the Fallout universe, nuclear war breaks out in the year 2077 between USA and China (in this universe, the USSR still exists and is an ally to China) as the Earth's non-renewable resources like fossil fuels run out.
In our world, it just seems to be purely over who controls the World Order: the East or the West? I'm sure there are many factors I'm unaware of right now, but this buildup of military forces in the Pacific has me concerned for the future.
For more info on what I'm referring to, here's the Fallout Wiki's article on the "Great War" aka WWIII.
http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/...
Did you forget to look at that page before linking to it?
Iron Dome, fully deployed in November 2012, is a system for intercepting medium-range rockets. Count the number of ROCKET fatalities after November 2012. For that matter, look at the number after they STARTED deploying Iron Dome in the first location compared to before they had iron dome.
Iron Dome is not designed to defend against snipers, flu, mortars, or insults. It defends against rockets.
outcome would be both countries being completely destroyed. It's just simple deterrence, same as everyone else.
The problem with what you are saying is that if our comms and spy sats are taken out, AND somebody launches quickly from the ocean, then it is possible to destroy a nation, even America.
And China's work is headed in that direction. As I said elsewhere, back in the original cold war, American and Russian leaders did NOT want nuke war, and in fact, put limits on what our nations could do to prevent making first strike winnable.
But China refuses those changes. Worst yet, they have a massive spying going on over here which is letting them know exactly what we have, and how to take it out.
No, China is to be feared because they will in fact, cause a nuke war if they continue on this path.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
So what you are saying is we dont have ways to take out spy and comm sats. Just the dirty chinese do. Uh huh.
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A leader might accidentally trip and fall on the button in your scenario too. Einstein said, learning how to release atomic power changed everything except our thinking. That issue is still playing out, and motivates much of my efforts (whether towards abundance for all, better tools for civic sensemaking and education, or work towards self-replicating habitats for Earth and space). Who in the tech profession has not seen a variety of complex systems fail in unexpected ways over the years? So, speaking purely probabilistically, chances are, we will see these weapons go off sooner or later due to accident or error. They might go off because of a technical accident ("99 Red Balloons" wrongly interpreted as an attack, a massive solar flare causing a launch, bad capacitors causing a launch, etc.). Or they might be used because of a psychological or political accident (like the one your insightful story is about). As others have also pointed out, "MAD" assumes rational actors trying to act in self-preservation; if you put lunatics in charge of the button then it might get pressed for any number of crazy reasons same as many people regularly do other self-destructive things.
21st century technologies of abundance (nuclear, biological, chemical, nanotech, robotic, AI, communications, bureaucracy) create more "buttons" in more places in the hands of more people. That makes it more and more likely a button somewhere will get pressed. Worse, many (probably most) the people using these 21st technologies are still locked in a 20th century (and earlier) mindset of worrying about material scarcity. So, they ironically are willing to use nuclear energy (as bombs) to fight over oil fields, when nuclear energy could instead produce all the energy we might otherwise get from oil (not that I'm much of a conventional nuclear fan compared to renewables, energy efficiency, fusion, or LENR).
While we need to do what we can to reduce the chance that any of the buttons get pressed including by promoting a philosophy of mutual security, we should also design with the expectation they will eventually get pressed, and create an infrastructure that is resilient and distributed enough to muddle through anyway as a form on intrinsic security. The internet was supposedly designed to survive nuclear war. We need to apply some of the same thinking to agriculture, power, medicine, education, transportation, and so on. However, this strategy for intrinsic and mutual security is completely at odds with maximizing short-term economic profits by "just in time" delivery of good produced or routed through centralized hubs controlled by a few monopolistic actors.
My OSCOMAK project (and precursors) was a hope in that direction (not that I've succeeded much with it directly).
http://www.kurtz-fernhout.com/...
http://www.pdfernhout.net/prin...
"Why do I want to build these habitats? Most people would agree there is at least a one percent chance the human race will wipe itself out within the next century through a nuclear or biological war. The issue isn't even necessarily about our politicians making mistakes. The fallibility of the Soviet missile command computer technicians is what worries me most. Like anyone else familiar with computers, I know how easy it is to make a mistake with one. Beyond accidental warfare, expanding populations and industrial pollution threaten our lives just as much. I feel that even if there is only a one percent chance of ecological disaster over the next century, I want to do my best to ensure human survival in that case.
Most people do not think about these issues, or if they do, rapidly dismiss the problems as too large and impossible to do anything significant about. I feel I have an alternative to apathy or despair. Some habitats in space or underwater would probably survive a nuclear war. Unlike bomb shelters, they would provide an intact technological
A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
The technology that we developed was from the 60's. And then USSR and America did treaties that forbade just that. So, no, we really do not have any. OTOH, China does not have treaties forbidding them, and refuse to enter into any that will.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
Even assuming everything goes according to Chinas plan and the entire US is turned into a radioactive wasteland with absolutely zero survivors and not a thing left standing.
US subs will still completely destroy China in retaliation, just like I already mentioned.
It's pointless.
You could have all the comms and spy satellites that you like and still be vulnerable to a first strike from beneath the sea, so they aren't really gaining anything here anyway. (Well they are gaining things in other areas, but not for a nuke first strike)
On February 21, 2008, USA destroyed a malfunctioning U.S. spy satellite USA-193 using a RIM-161 Standard Missile 3.
Just Drop A http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H... In http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A....
You'll Drown The World.
Casteism
That was not R&D. That was taking out a sat that still had fuel and it was on the edge of the atmosphere.
There is a HUGE difference in our taking out a falling sat, vs. in active development of a massive anti-sat program.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.