Why the Public Library Beats Amazon

Nate the greatest writes: The launch of Kindle Unlimited last month has many questioning the value of public libraries, with one pundit on Forbes even going so far as to proclaim that the U.K. could save money by shuttering all its libraries and replacing them with Kindle Unlimited subscriptions. Luckily for libraries, they're safe for now because they still beat Kindle Unlimited and its competitors in at least one category: content you want to read. As several reviewers have noted, Kindle Unlimited is stocked almost entirely with indie titles, with a handful of major titles thrown in. Even Scribd and Oyster only have ebooks from two of the five major U.S. publishers, while U.S. public libraries can offer titles from all five. They might be expensive and you might have to get on a waiting list, but as the Wall Street Journal points out, public libraries are safe because they can still offer a better selection. That is true, but I think the WSJ missed a key point: public libraries beat Amazon because they offer services Amazon cannot, including in-person tech support, internet access, and other basic assistance. The fact of the matter is, you can't use KU, Scribd, or Oyster if you don't know how to use your device, and your local public library is the best place to learn.

Comments

Libraries are one thing Amazon is not

[Anonymous Coward]

An actual place.

Re:Libraries are one thing Amazon is not

[tepples]

An actual place requires actual staff during operating hours and requires actual bus drivers to get patrons there and back. Not everybody wants the limits inherent in that arrangement.

Re:Libraries are one thing Amazon is not

[mendax]

The fact that the public library is an actual place is important. Libraries are not just places to get information. They are sometimes positioned to be social centers of communities, places for those without Internet access to get that access, a quiet place to avoid the hustle and bustle of life, a place to meet friends, a place to hold a meeting, a place to do homework and study, and so on and so on. Libraries have long since been simply a place to get the latest novel or some old classic.

Re:Libraries are one thing Amazon is not

[Anonymous Coward]

That is for the general public and they have damn near everything or can get it. Music, movies, books, magazines, internet access and more. Anyone saying public libraries should go away is against society in general, IMO. Not everyone can afford the niceties from Amazon, let alone even having internet access at home (if they have one) to access Amazon and order their junk.

Amazon will never replace libraries and if libraries every do go away, our society will be much worse off because of it. Libraries are a necessary part of our educated society, but if we're headed for Idiocracy, then it won't really matter. There is no other place that someone can get access for free to all of the resources that libraries offer. The only way this will happen is if Amazon becomes a publicly funded "company" via "global tax dollars" and opens physical locations themselves and offer "memberships" for free, to ALL.

Re:Libraries are one thing Amazon is not

[ljw1004]

We take my 10-month old daughter to "Baby Story Time" at nearby libraries. Last week one of the libraries brought in some zoo animals for the kids to pet.

My iPad and SurfacePro aren't as good at telling stories to baby. There's less social interaction and she gets too fixated on the screen. Also tries to eat it.

Re:Libraries are one thing Amazon is not

[Anonymous Coward]

Where do you live that you are required to take a bus if you want to go to a library? That must be troublesome indeed - unless it's one of those buses with strippers on it.

Re:Libraries are one thing Amazon is not

[camperdave]

Whereas Amazon has ample table space, quiet study areas, and you can browse through every part of every book in stock.

Re:Libraries are one thing Amazon is not

[timeOday]

But libraries already have floating e-book licenses you can check out for downloadable content (including off hours) in addition to everything else they offer.

My daughter volunteered at the local library this summer teaching younger kids to read. In theory some semblance of this "could" be done over the Internet, but I just don't see it actually happening, and it wouldn't be the same.

Re:Libraries are one thing Amazon is not

[Anonymous Coward]

not every one is ok living perpetually in their mom's basement.

Re:Libraries are one thing Amazon is not

[Anonymous Coward]

And you need a multi-million dollar library for that? Seems rather inefficient.

Re:Libraries are one thing Amazon is not

[0bject]

I'm sure most parents would be totally OK with the much more efficient "Toothless Joe's Baby Story Time" hosted at his white panel van in the alley behind the gas station. Kids could pet exotic animals like wild rats and racoons. It would be a hoot.

Re:Libraries are one thing Amazon is not

[Trepidity]

Yeah, I don't know why you'd take the bus when the metro is so much faster.

Re:Libraries are one thing Amazon is not

[plopez]

And virtual libraries require servers, networking, storage arrays, other ancillary gear, and an army of staff to maintain them. Virtual libraries also require readers and a network connection. And electricity. You can have a real library even without electricity.

Re:Libraries are one thing Amazon is not

[timeOday]

Libraries are also a haven from commercialism. Any privatized variation on the library, run by e.g. Amazon, will unavoidably slide into becoming a flea market and / or Cable TV, just as surely as the Internet did. There are deep inherent conflicts between the goals of spreading knowledge vs turning a buck.

Re:Libraries are one thing Amazon is not

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm sure most parents would be totally OK with the much more efficient "Toothless Joe's Baby Story Time" hosted at his white panel van in the alley behind the gas station. Kids could pet exotic animals like wild rats and racoons. It would be a hoot.

For a moment I thought about Billy the Exterminator [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_the_Exterminator ]. LOL

Re: Libraries are one thing Amazon is not

[Anonymous Coward]

++
Anyone who think libraries should just go away can piss the hell off. A well run Library is a huge boon for a community both from a social and learning standpoint. God forbid when we finally go ebook only and people stop visiting Libraries. That would be sad indeed.

Re:Libraries are one thing Amazon is not

[Bite The Pillow]

Fuck that, I'm staying with Project Gutenburg for my books on my Kindle DX.

It works perfectly for me, because I'm already behind on my reading list by life + 75 years.

Re:Libraries are one thing Amazon is not

[countach]

But those secondary reasons might not be a sufficiently compelling argument for spending public money on it.

Re:Libraries are one thing Amazon is not

[Applehu Akbar]

I've tried my library's e-book download service and I've tried Kindle Unlimited.

And guess what? Neither of them carry the books I actually want to read. Back to one-at-a-time Kindle purchases for me.

Re:Libraries are one thing Amazon is not

[Applehu Akbar]

Good point. Where on Amazon can I get fleas from a homeless guy?

Re:Libraries are one thing Amazon is not

[Anonymous Coward]

Another thing libraries offer is protection from censorship. Each book exists physically in a library and most will resist government goons until forced to remove/replace a book by the courts, usually attracting media attention in the process. Amazon is a single point of attack and has already shown they will quietly "update" everyone to a censored version of a book, and no one will ever know unless they re-read a book they read in their youth (like The Adventures of Tom Sawyer).

Re:Libraries are one thing Amazon is not

[AthanasiusKircher]

The fact that the public library is an actual place is important.

Another facet of having an actual place is that humans orient themselves around physical spaces in ways that just aren't the same electronically.

One of the most important ones to me is the bookshelf, particularly for non-fiction books (which is mostly what I read aside from classic lit). No matter how good Amazon's "products like this one" or "products other people have purchased" lists get, they still generally don't offer the same kind of discovery sensation of browsing on shelves for me. Amazon is very good at showing me books that other people like me already know about. It is TERRIBLE at showing me more obscure or older related items that people like me don't tend to know about already, but which might be just as good resources (or even better). Even a relatively small public library will often have some intriguing random discoveries for me when I'm browsing in an area devoted to a particular subject. And a large university is often a revelation.

Physical bookshelves make this sort of browsing possible quickly and efficiently. They also register an amazing sense of "location" that just doesn't happen on the web. I used to visit a small local public library every couple weeks when I was a kid and check out books (mostly from the science section). After a few years, I had exhausted many of the good books in that section, so I didn't go to that library much anymore. But I remember returning there maybe a decade later, and when I went back to those shelves, I saw many of my old favorite books, still in their same locations on the shelves, and I *remembered* where they were... it was actually a somewhat moving experience. Now, of course, I have plenty of my own bookshelves in my home, and I have a similar sense of location -- even though I have thousands of books, I know basically where everything is. Whereas if I forgot to rename a PDF file I downloaded and/or forgot to put it in the right folder on my computer, I could have a lot of difficulty finding it.

It's also like the physical sense one often has of reading a physical book, which makes it very different from reading an ebook where the text can reflow on demand or when a font is resized or whatever. With a physical book, I can often find something I read again by thumbing through and thinking, "Yeah, it was about 1/3 of the way through the book, and I remember it was in the upper right corner of a page somewhere" and I can usually find it within a minute or two. Obviously a full-text search on an Ebook can often be just as efficient, but sometimes I don't remember enough unique words from the passage or sometimes it was a diagram or something... and I can find that instantly in a physical book.

Spatial organization is really important to memory. There was a well-known memory technique used in medieval times to memorize long lists of things and even entire books, which often involved imagining a very large building with many floors, and on each floor were many rooms, and in each room were many pieces of furniture with many drawers (or other containers), and within each drawer was some imaginary physical item meant to be a mnemonic for the things to be recalled. By "constructing" this imaginary building in your mind and repeatedly "revisiting" it as you memorized something, it would cement the text in your mind.

Nowadays this art of memory has been almost forgotten, but in a mostly oral culture where books were rare and manuscripts often could only be consulted in one place but copying was too expensive to take a copy with you, it was necessary for scholars to memorize large amounts of texts when doing research. There was a whole "craft of memory," and it mostly revolved around spatial metaphors.

Our modern physical libraries and books are similarly navigable when they exist in real space in ways that electronic materials often aren't. That doesn't mean that we can't make the electronic materials better and often superior in some ways, but we lose something when the physical orientation around books goes away.

Re:Libraries are one thing Amazon is not

[darnkitten]

My library's online catalog is scheduled to have a "browse" function--you will be able to see a row of covers in shelf order that you can swipe/scroll along for that kind of discovery. Unfortunately, it won't duplicate the rows above and below, as I would have liked for that shelf-jumping serendipity of discovery, but it will allow a combined browse of all 10 libraries in our user group as if all our books were shelved together.

Of course, Sirsi-Dynix (the company providing the system) has been promising us this new version for, what, three years now? .

"Sometime this year, my arse...".

Re:Libraries are one thing Amazon is not

[JasonGoatcher]

Some Kindles give Internet acess for free. The experience sounds ultra-shitty to me, but it is offered. And it's a cellular connection, so you could technically be homeless and use it, though recharging might be a problem.

Re:Libraries are one thing Amazon is not

[ayesnymous]

An actual place.

An actual place that you might NEVER use, but still have to pay for.

Re:Libraries are one thing Amazon is not

[Sarius64]

Nothing replaces the giant reference books you find at public and university libraries. These books are thousands of dollars each and unlikely to ever be scanned in a searchable format. I'm not indicating that libraries cannot be improved or pulled into the new technologies. However, throwing away the functions and knowledgebase in current libraries is a terrible agenda.

Re:Libraries are one thing Amazon is not

[Anonymous Coward]

They can buy kindle.

I like libraries. You can FEEL the books. There are old books, there are new books. There are all kinds of books. You don't need money at all to read the books. You don't need electricity to read the books. If the "company" stops being a "company" the books will still exist. There are many libraries, it's unlikely they will ever get a kind of monopoly they will use to extract more money from people to keep the service going. The people working at libraries usually love books, instead of electronic devices. I also like the smell of books. My kindle smells just like what it is; electronics and plastic. I can leave a book somewhere, find it later. I can gift a book to someone, and it actually feels like a gift. I have traded books on holiday in a far away country with other travellers. I wouldn't take a kindle with me because it's easy to break it, in comparison books are almost indestructable. Once my whole backbag got wet, the book inside got all wrinkly, but was still readable. I sure hope books, and libraries as the home of books won't vanish as long as I'm alive. I also want my kids to have the same feeling of wonder I felt when I realized how much written goodness there is just waiting for me. Millions of stories, millions of universes. Millions of ideas. I know the exact same words COULD be inside my kindle, and some of them are, but their soul lives inside the books. The dusty, old books. And their home, the libraries.

Re:Libraries are one thing Amazon is not

[Anonymous Coward]

Any commercial operator will try to pump out as much monetary value as possible. The noble reason for libraries to exist, and to be funded by public funds is the sharing of knowledge to those who want to learn. I'n my books (heh) that's a cause to support. Libraries are doing good job at it, and aren't that expensive really. Even the poorest of people can go to a library and educate himself. With libraries and books you can't really alter the text after it has been printed and spread to thousands of locations. In electrical texts we have always been at war with eurasia. Wikipedia confirms this.

Re:Libraries are one thing Amazon is not

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes. You live in a society that affects you on daily basis. You want that society to be as civilized as possible. Libraries help in this. It's a kind of forced handout, but eventually you also reap the benefits youself by living in a better place. Maybe you should use the library if you coudn't figure that out yourself?

Re:Libraries are one thing Amazon is not

[symbolset]

As I was standing there before the shrine of knowledge completely stunned, another potential patron joined me. For half a minute we stared at the portal that would not open before he turned to me to ask: "They close?"

"I guess so." I replied. We stood there a moment more, as if that would change things. And then we left.

Re:Libraries are one thing Amazon is not

[Anonymous Coward]

Reference Books are going the way of websites. Many of the Reference Book companies are starting to cancel their print materials and replace with subscription databases.

Re:Libraries are one thing Amazon is not

[nbauman]

You're exactly right. I've had the same experience.

One of the best libraries in New York City was the Donnell library on 53rd St. and 5th Ave. It was originally designed as a collection for elementary and high school students, but it was the best place for an adult to learn about a new subject. It was staffed by some of the best librarians in the world. A good librarian knows the field, knows how to order good books, knows where everything is in the collection, and knows how to help people.

They had 2 bookshelves of their science and math collection, 500s and 600s, which contained every classic science and math book I read in high school -- Microbe Hunters, The World of Mathematics, 1-2-3 Infinity -- they were all there. And they also had the new books that I hadn't read yet. In the big book stores, by contrast, they bought only the latest titles from this year's offerings by the publisher, and unless a title was really popular, they yanked it from the shelves in 3 months and never stocked it again. I could stand in front of those 2 bookshelves and get an education just by looking at the spines of the books.

Unfortunately, Mayor Bloomberg decided to sell the Donnell in a real estate deal. He decided the land was too valuable for a library. (Long story, Google "Donnell library.") I've talked to librarians. There's no library in New York City today with a collection like that. You can't stand in front of 2 bookshelves full of the classic science and math books. (There isn't even a bibliography that lists those books.) Once that book collection was dispersed, that information was gone.

Bloomberg and the library director said, Oh, we don't need paper books any more, we can get digital subscriptions. Well, surprise. Because of the way journal publishers price their digital subscriptions, the cost of a subscription to a single journal can be thousands of dollars. They charge academic libraries according to the number of users. A librarian told me that if she wanted to get a digital subscription to the New England Journal of Medicine (the most essential medical journal of all), they would charge her a price based on the entire population of New York City. There are basic publications (like Science Citation Index) that I used to use in print, that are not available any more in any public library.

Re:Libraries are one thing Amazon is not

[butalearner]

But libraries already have floating e-book licenses you can check out for downloadable content (including off hours) in addition to everything else they offer.

My daughter volunteered at the local library this summer teaching younger kids to read. In theory some semblance of this "could" be done over the Internet, but I just don't see it actually happening, and it wouldn't be the same.

Just so. In fact, these days it seems like libraries are more about being community centers than a place to borrow books. Where I live now it's not quite as noticeable, but in my previous city there was always a line to get on the computers, but hardly anybody browsing the stacks.

My library hosts story time for kids, book/movie/anime clubs, beginner PC classes (typing, office software), board game nights, arts and crafts for kids, arts and crafts for adults...all free. During tax time, they have all the forms and information you might need, and they provide information sessions and classes on free e-filing. They also host paid events; recently they had a LEGO exhibit with competitions for kids and open build time, and a Tor editor and author Q&A session where they critiqued the first couple pages of attendees' stories. Granted these things could be hosted elsewhere, but being at the library makes it more likely that I'll hear about it and far more likely that I'll go.

Also, my library also gives me access to subscription sites, including ebook and audiobook sites. I can pay $100 per year to subscribe to ancestry.com, or I could go to my library. I can pay $260 to get lifetime access to a single language on RocketLanguages, or I could go to my library and get access to every course on every language they have for free. While the interface isn't as slick as Duolingo, there are more languages available and it just feels like a better way for me to learn.

And of course there are the books themselves. My city has a pretty solid collection of sci-fi/fantasy, though it's not quite as exhaustive as my previous city. One nice thing they do here is try to have plenty of copies of the first books in a series, something that was a big annoyance before. I can't remember how many times I saw an interesting book while browsing, only to find out it is a sequel and I'd have to request the first one. I could also check out e-readers themselves, something that is relatively new both here and my last city.

TL;DR: you might replace one single aspect of libraries with something like Kindle Unlimited (and poorly at that), but that's not all libraries provide. Not by a long shot.

Re:Libraries are one thing Amazon is not

[nbauman]

Right. I used to use Science Citation Index, which can answer questions like, "What are the most heavily-cited articles in Cell?"

The New York Public Library used to get the paper edition. Now it's digital-only. The subscription model, based on university libraries, is to charge libraries based on the number of patrons. So there might be 10,000 users at Columbia University. But if the New York Public Library wanted to subscribe, they would charge them based on the entire population of New York City. It would be prohibitively expensive. So public libraries can no longer get those reference books.

Re:Libraries are one thing Amazon is not

[nurb432]

Try getting out of print material from amazon...

Re:Libraries are one thing Amazon is not

[BButlerNWW9564]

cause it's free

Re:Libraries are one thing Amazon is not

[Applehu Akbar]

The Project Gutenberg classics are available on Kindle, usually in a free edition.

Re:Libraries are one thing Amazon is not

[Anonymous Coward]

I've tried my library's e-book download service and I've tried Kindle Unlimited.

And guess what? Neither of them carry the books I actually want to read. Back to one-at-a-time Kindle purchases for me.

I use my libraries e-book service with the overdrive app and it's fantastic, there is a ton of content on there and I can always find something to read. Libraries for the win!

Re:Libraries are one thing Amazon is not

[Sarius64]

I agree with you. But digitizing the older books of this sort doesn't appear to be a reality, either.

Re:Libraries are one thing Amazon is not

[nbauman]

I'm not sure what reference books you're thinking of. Google Books was scanning the entire collections of entire university libraries.

However, I was trying to find the song that was the source of the line, "A pint's a pound the world around, so damn all foreign measures," which was originally a British anti-metric tirade. I was pretty sure that I had seen it in a letter in Science magazine. Science is online in full text, and I subscribed, so I searched for it. I couldn't find it.

I went to the New York Public Library Performing Arts library and told the librarian what I was looking for. He led me to an entire bookshelf full of reference books of song titles. I thought the title was, "A pint's a pound the world around," so I spent a couple a few hours going through every likely book. But none of those books were online. If they were, it would have been a lot easier.

I was there at a Wikipedia event, and the librarians showed us around. They rolled out two book carts with the Rogers & Hart archives. They have files with articles about every theater in New York City, with information that is available nowhere else (and disintegrating). They would like to digitize those files and put them into a database, maybe Google Books, but they can't, because they're full of copyrighted articles, many of which are from publications that aren't even in business any more, and it would be impossible to get permission -- orphan works. I think they could be more aggressive in exercising fair use, but they want to maintain good relations with the creators who donate their archives to the library.

Re:Libraries are one thing Amazon is not

[cthulhu11]

... on the rare occasions that their goofy formats / software requirements are usable.

Re:Libraries are one thing Amazon is not

[wwphx]

I had an amazingly weird college book store experience while taking a New Mexico State University class on a military base. I went to the store, on-base, to buy the book for the class. It was a window where you told the worker what class you were taking and they went and got your book. I thought it was maybe because they offered a small number of courses on-base, so they didn't have the room for a big bookstore. Then I take a class in Las Cruces at a large facility: same thing. Zero opportunity to browse shelves and discover new things to learn, something that I loved to do when I lived in Phoenix. New Mexico is a weird place in a lot of ways, but Arizona has gotten even more strange in the last decade.

Today's Dictionary.Com word of the day was 'philology: the love of learning and literature'.

Re:Libraries are one thing Amazon is not

[wwphx]

I'm taking classes in library science right now, and this is a big problem. I remember using a reference online in class that listed all book stores in the world. It's revised every couple of years, I thought it would be pretty cool (dunno why) to own a copy. The new book is over $500 for a physical copy, you can buy the previous edition on Amazon, ex-libris, for $5 or so.

I don't have a problem, per se, with companies wanting to make a profit. But there's a difference between making a profit and gouging for as much money as you can. Libraries never have as much money as they need, and pricing online material like this is going to move them one step closer to extinction for both the companies making the resources and the libraries themselves.

Re:Libraries are one thing Amazon is not

[wwphx]

Remember the kid who was taking AP English and writing a paper on 1984? Amazon yanked the book because they screwed up their licensing, and the kid lost all his notes that were on his Kindle.

And considering the strong-arming that Amazon is attempting to do with Hachette and did with Time-Warner Video, they definitely ain't no saints.

Re:Libraries are one thing Amazon is not

[nurb432]

Gutenberg isn't amazon :) But yes, that is another (legal) option.

But more to my meaning: There are thousands and thousands of out of print ( but still relevant ) books in libraries that are still under copyright.

Re:Libraries are one thing Amazon is not

[Sarius64]

Have you seen any illuminated books? There were many from different sources at all five college libraries I've attended four public). In many theatrical, geography, and historical references the books recording the facts are works of art in of their own merit. I've been to libraries in DC, NYC, and man other large cities where exploring the old reference sections can yield many treasures. Those libraries have inspired many people in all aspects of research. I'll look up the Google scanning you've indicated; but that's going to be a hundred year project for each library archive if the texts are going to be searchable.

Re:Libraries are one thing Amazon is not

[lsatenstein]

Whereas Amazon has ample table space, quiet study areas, and you can browse through every part of every book in stock.

Surprise, Surprise, Surprise.
I was told that Quebec public libraries do not support the Kindle. They do support other readers, as long as the software is open source and can read the e-books, held by the library system. Kindle is proprietary end hence is a no-no.

Re:Libraries are one thing Amazon is not

[Anonymous Coward]

"Go to College if you want to get laid, go to the library if you want an education." Frank Zappa

Re:Libraries are one thing Amazon is not

[MPAndonee]

Why is this moderated FUNNY, when it's true?

Re:Libraries are one thing Amazon is not

[Anonymous Coward]

Libraries are not a book warehouse. Besides the things listed in the summary public libraries are also places where individuals can gain computer skills if they apply themselves. There's tons of people out there who do not know how to use a spread sheet or word processor. What's sad is when the economy is down the use of libraries goes up at an intense rate however Libraries are one of the first things to get cut in city/state budgets.

Re:Libraries are one thing Amazon is not

[mrfatmann]

I sometimes think MY Kindle isn't mine because the GUI makes it easier to buy more books than it does to search and use the one's I have.

Oh, and all the ads!

Re:Libraries are one thing Amazon is not

[tepples]

Taking the metro would obviously require moving to a city with one. The only subway here sells sandwiches.

Re:Libraries are one thing Amazon is not

[pweidema]

Libraries are also a haven from commercialism.

Oh yes, this is more and more important, and harder and harder to find.

The day they put ads in my library books - well, I don't want to think about that.

Didn't Amazon already "fix" the support issue?

[Anonymous Coward]

They built on-demand live personal support into the device. If you have a problem, you push a button, and someone is there. Sure, you have to know how to push a button, but you also have to know how to open a book.

Re:Didn't Amazon already "fix" the support issue?

[roc97007]

Ob. youtube.

And now...

[Reason58]

Let me tell you why the apple beats the orange.

Re:And now...

[Bite The Pillow]

The wall street journal thought it was important enough to write an article about, so go yell at them.

And some dude named Nate Hoffelder thought it was important enough to write some web page about so yell at him.

Then Nate shoveled it into the Slashdot Word Salad Shooter (tm), and Soulskill shat out this garbage. Go yell at it.

Even worse, Reason58 felt the need to post a statement which boiled down to "I don't want to have to think about difficult things like how different sub-populations utilise different resources and what kind of impact, or lack thereof, that might have on business and economy." So go yell at yourself.

I'm just stating the obvious, and I won't be back round in the morrow to see you fail to defend yourself, so again feel free to yell at yourself.

Public Lending Right

[ZombieBraintrust]

The author has missed the point in the forbes article where the author was looking at the UK.

we in the UK already operate our libraries in that fashion. We have something called Public Lending Right

With some small changes they could force the publishers onto UK Kindle unlimited under this model. This would put all the books you want to read on the platform. Of course none of these changes likely have political support to actually happen. No pol is going propose shutting down libraries and sending the money to a foriegn company.

Re:Public Lending Right

[Frankie70]

I went through the wikipedia article of Public Lending Right - I can't make head nor tail of it.

A Public Lending Right (PLR) programme, is a programme intended to either compensate authors for the potential loss of sales from their works being available in public libraries, or as a governmental support of the arts, through support of works available in public libraries, such as books, music and artwork.

They are already being compensated right - i.e. the library buys the books. Isn't that compensation already?

Re:Public Lending Right

[blane.bramble]

Yes, the library buys the book, but that doesn't benefit the author much - one book will be borrowed by many people, none of whom now have to buy the book, so this is a net loss for the author. Public Lending Right compensates for this loss by making a small payment (fractions of a penny I believe in most cases) for each time a book is borrowed. This is totaled up and then paid to the authors (presumably once such payments have exceeded a certain threshold).

Re:Public Lending Right

[david_thornley]

In what way is that different from what libraries have been doing all along? I've always been able to go into my public library and walk out with books to read with no benefit to the authors. (Except for when I then decided I wanted to own the author's books: buying new or used books* is a far more reliable way of finding a specific book than going to the library.)

*Search online for used. Walking into a used book store is fun but they rarely have a specific book you want. They likely have books you didn't know you wanted, but that's something different.

Re:Public Lending Right

[Frankie70]

> Yes, the library buys the book, but that doesn't benefit the author much - one book will be borrowed by many people, none of whom now have to buy the book, so this is a net loss for the author.

So what?

Once the book is sold, does the author get to decide what is done with it? I can buy a book & then share it with friends and family. Should I send some money to the author then?

Support

[Impy the Impiuos Imp]

> Including in-person tech support.

"I'm sorry, sir. I cannot unstick the pages because you let the barf dry."

The #1 reason public libraries are better

[weeboo0104]

Not everybody can afford a Kindle.

My library card didn't cost me a thing to request and I can check out as many books as I can read for free as long as they are returned on time. Heck, I can even check out CD's, DVDs and puzzles for my kid.

Public libraries are great sources for local history, in-person social networking, and meetings on how to become more involved in the local community and volunteering.

Re:The #1 reason public libraries are better

[alexander_686]

Not exactly true and kind of misses the point.

You say not everybody can afford Kindles? The point was to close down all of the libraries, and used the money saved to buy everybody a Kindle or some other type of e-book. If e-books and libraries were equivalent than society would win. E-books and libraries are not equivalent yet, at least the book lending portion. However, my local library does allow me to check out e-books and audiobooks via the internet so we are getting close.

Taxes could be cut, libraries could be redeployed to something more useful - like coffee shops that could be used for networking. I say the last bit half in jest. If you are interested in networking, community meetings, etc. then we should figure out the best way to delivery that. Maybe generic community centers could do better? Other people have mentioned internet access and tech support. Maybe free city wide wifi would be a better choice?

I love libraries, but let's not try to justify their existence with a bunch of ad hoc ad ons in ex post facto rationalization of logic.

Re:The #1 reason public libraries are better

[Anonymous Coward]

and used the money saved to buy everybody a Kindle or some other type of e-book.

and then the media empires will have won with drm infested books and media, and the shredding of fair use principles (whats left of them anyway). no thank you

Re:The #1 reason public libraries are better

[Anonymous Coward]

Not everybody can afford a Kindle. My library card didn't cost me a thing to request

Ah, brilliant logic. It didn't cost YOU anything, therefore it is free. Hate to break this to you, but libraries are expensive. Now, I support libraries, but they are not these free resources that just sprout out of the ground. They cost a lot and the money comes from somewhere.

Re:The #1 reason public libraries are better

[alexander_686]

Then I would suggest, and I do in fact encourage, reform of the copyright laws.

Clinging to yesterday's 19th century inefficient technology with some ill-defined nostalgia for the past is probably not the best way to ensure liberty in the 20th century. As a case in point, my library immediately deletes all borrowing history the moment a book is returned or the e-book lending period expires. Not exactly on point to what you are saying, but pointing out the type of things we should be doing. That being said, even if all libraries go DRM, there is nothing stopping you from walking into a bookstore and buying a hardback with a $20 bill.

Re:The #1 reason public libraries are better

[weeboo0104]

Not everybody can afford a Kindle. My library card didn't cost me a thing to request

Ah, brilliant logic. It didn't cost YOU anything, therefore it is free. Hate to break this to you, but libraries are expensive. Now, I support libraries, but they are not these free resources that just sprout out of the ground. They cost a lot and the money comes from somewhere.

Yeah, the funny thing is my property tax statement itemizes how the taxes I pay each year are divided up.
This past year, my tax statement says that $174.20 of my taxes went toward the library. I saw a 6" Kindle on Amazon for $69. Wi-fi only. So even if I purchased or say my property taxes paid for that Kindle, I'd still have to buy Wi-Fi to use it. That's just so I can use it personally. There's no ability to share that Kindle with anybody. And there is nowhere to physically meet the other people in the community.

Now if you think paying $174.20 is expensive for a library, I paid $2,143 to the local school district. I don't have any kids in school, but I still have to pay for the schools. If you wanted to save money so badly, maybe we should stop paying for public schools and use the money to pay for Kindles instead so kids can learn from those.

Re:The #1 reason public libraries are better

[Anonymous Coward]

The equality of access is great, as is the fact that many books are still only available in paper format. And the fact that it's a public space is a good thing too.
I can request books online and get an email when they are at my local branch. My kids can go there and do homework with friends, and check out manga which has been vetted by a librarian (have you ever looked through some of the random manga at a Barnes & Nobel? I can't tell the stuff aimed at teen girls from the stuff aimed at middle aged guys with a schoolgirl fetish without spending way more time than I want; the library does that for me). And I can get ebooks in kindle and epub formats from their website. I'm happy to have my taxes going towards libraries, and I'm lucky to live in a county where most people would feel the same way.

Re:The #1 reason public libraries are better

[nbauman]

Clinging to yesterday's 19th century inefficient technology with some ill-defined nostalgia for the past is probably not the best way to ensure liberty in the 20th century.

In defending brick-and-mortar libraries, were are not clinging to 19th century technology.

We know about and use the latest technology here.

Therefore, we know that the promises of visionaries and marketing people often aren't kept. Most of us have been through this many times before. Many of us have struggled to get these systems working. Most of us knew what was going to happen with the Obamacare website.

Digital technology is a great addition to the brick-and-mortar library. If you think that we can therefore dump the brick-and-mortar library and put everything on line, you haven't used libraries much and don't understand them.

As Carl Sagan said, it's nice to smoke a joint and write down a lot of visionary ideas. But then you have to wake up next morning and look over your visionary ideas and see if they make sense.

That being said, even if all libraries go DRM, there is nothing stopping you from walking into a bookstore and buying a hardback with a $20 bill.

You don't seem to know that there are lots of people who can't afford to walk into a bookstore and buy a hardback with a $20 bill. The people who read books the most are children and students.

Re:The #1 reason public libraries are better

[nbauman]

I compared the science collection at my local library and my local Barnes & Nobel. My library had a shelf full of science classics, like Microbe Hunters. B&N had this year's publisher's offerings. If they don't sell, they're gone. For the next Christmas sales season, they send all the slow-movng books back to the publishers and buy the new season's offerings. Microbe Hunters? Can't find it in a commercial book store.

Re:The #1 reason public libraries are better

[nurb432]

It *did* cost him. He just thinks public services run on air, not taxes..

Not saying i support it, but if you take the millions for the library, you can buy a lot of kindles and pay for the subscription too....

Re:The #1 reason public libraries are better

[david_thornley]

Reforming the copyright laws won't make the Kindle DRM-free. It won't make it possible to lend or give Kindle books freely, or resell them. Just because I could legally do something doesn't mean a company has to supply its products in a form that supports that use.

The only way to make Kindle books work like real books is to have Amazon regulated by the government, and that frightens me almost as much as a thoroughly dominant Amazon not under government control.

Poor librarians!

[SeaFox]

The fact of the matter is, you can't use KU, Scribd, or Oyster if you don't know how to use your device, and your local public library is the best place to learn.

Roped into doing Amazon's job for them, because they want to encourage people to read, even if it's not through a hard-bound book they check out.

A place of knowledge

[Anonymous Coward]

Public libraries around here are starting to expand their offering by adding maker spaces and hosting information sessions on the equipment contained within... I believe this to be a great way for the libraries to remain relevent in the information age.

My local library

[OzPeter]

My local library doesn't just have books.

It has:

Books (well yeah)
Magazines
Newspapers
Audio Books
DVDs
Meeting Rooms
Events
Internet Access
Printers
Photocopiers

In general it is trying to position itself as a local community resource

Somehow I can't see all of that being replaced by a Kindle, and thats without even going into what limited selection of titles the Kindle will have.

Re:My local library

[UnknownSoldier]

Mod parent up.

Plus the ability to borrow books and loan them to family members.

Re:My local library

[ZombieBraintrust]

Amazon covers quite a bit of that. Books - Yes
Magazines - Yes
Newspapers - Yes/No (maybe not your local paper)
Audio Books - Yes Amazon owns Audible.com
DVDs - Yes Amazon does Movie/TV Streams
Meeting Rooms - No
Events - No
Internet Access - No
Printers - Go paperless already
Photocopiers - Stop waisting paper

Somethings you missed
Research Help
Free Day Care (people leave their kids unattended at libraries)
Curated Childrens Section
Table and chairs for studying.

Re:My local library

[Anonymous Coward]

Public libraries are paid for by local taxes. A lot of Amazon's stuff is for the kids with sufficiently rich parents.

Re:My local library

[Trepidity]

You can get academic journal articles in many libraries, which can help independent researchers, autodidacts, or even just particularly interested people. Obviously a local branch serving primarily non-researchers won't have a huge selection of journals on the shelves, but many do have access to academic library material via partnerships, if you want those materials. For individual articles, sometimes they'll even just get you a PDF scan (if local policy/law permits).

Depends on the library systems of course, but I've used two systems that are like that. The Danish public libraries have access to the entire national university system's holdings via loans and scans, and it works very nicely. Now you might think that's something that only happens in Socialist Scandinavia, but another place that does that is, oddly enough, Texas: through the TexShare program, anyone holding a public library card can visit most academic libraries in-person, or access electronic databases remotely.

Re:My local library

[praxis]

Amazon covers quite a bit of that.
Books - Yes

Very few books are available under Kindle Unlimited. Those that are not are very expensive.

Magazines - Yes

I do not think any magazine are available under Kindle Unlimited.

Newspapers - Yes/No (maybe not your local paper)

I could not find any newspapers available under Kindle Unlimited

Audio Books - Yes Amazon owns Audible.com

Again, nothing I could find under Kindle Unlimited

DVDs - Yes Amazon does Movie/TV Streams

Again, nothing I could find under Kindle Unlimited

Meeting Rooms - No
Events - No
Internet Access - No
Printers - Go paperless already
Photocopiers - Stop waisting paper

Not all photocopies are a waste of paper.

Somethings you missed
Research Help
Free Day Care (people leave their kids unattended at libraries)
Curated Childrens Section
Table and chairs for studying.

Or did you mean to compare items you can *purchase* on Amazon and its affiliates with items you can loan from the local library. That would be a silly comparison.

Re:My local library

[mythosaz]

More importantly, any good library has back issues of those periodicals, and your main public library has them going back for decades...

Re:My local library

[Jason Levine]

My local library has all of that plus, through an agreement with Amazon, it has Kindle versions of books that you can borrow. The books download onto your Kindle (or phone/tablet/computer with the Kindle app) and can be read until the load period expires at which time they are deleted. (In fact, since I'm a New York State resident, I can take eBooks out of my local library and from the New York Public Library. The latter has a bigger selection but can sometimes have a longer wait.)

The original article asked if Kindle Unlimited made libraries obsolete. Even if the physical books, DVDs, meeting spaces, Internet access, etc didn't push libraries above Kindle Unlimited, borrowing Kindle books from the library/Amazon would. By no stretch of the imagination does Kindle Unlimited mean we can shutter all libraries.

Re:My local library

[darnkitten]

More likely, your library provides e-books through Overdrive or a similar service, but because you have a Kindle or are downloading a Kindle-format book, Amazon requires your library checkouts to go through the Amazon site before you can download, so they can serve you a few ads and offer you the "opportunity" to purchase the book instead of checking it out. Other brands of e-readers may do something similar, or may allow you to check out through the Overdrive site and read if you have the appropriate DRM software installed. The publishers don't trust libraries enough to allow us to check e-books out to you directly or without DRM.

Re:My local library

[modi123]

You forgot one of the more important archival facets - microfiche! Where's your microfiche back log there Amazon?
Oh, yeah, you don't!

Viva la Microfiche!

Death rattle

[Anonymous Coward]

So, what's saving the library is the fundamentally unnecessary limitation of digital copies?

GOODBYE, LIBRARIES.

They should become specialists in archival services.

Re:Death rattle

[plopez]

"They should become specialists in archival services."

They are. And good luck reading your book in 10 or so years when your favorite electronic publishing house shutdown, gets bought out, or just stops offering the format your electronic book is written in.

Complaining about lack of titles misses the point

[adturner]

Yeah, the number and variety of titles is lacking with Amazon KU. But this is typical Amazon (and business 101 actually). You start small and grow over time. Amazon negotiated the deals it could bring KU to market and no doubt plans to grow their titles/publishers over time. Remember when Amazon used to _only_ sell books? Or what about few titles were available Amazon Instant Video a year ago vs now? Sure, it won't happen over night (not so much Amazon's fault, they'd love to include more publishers/titles), but it will improve over time.

title

[Anonymous Coward]

misleading.

selection

[roc97007]

My perception is that libraries carry books because they are books, and not for trendy or financial reasons. If I can't find an obscure title online, (admittedly, this happens less and less often) I can often find it at the library.

Re:selection

[ilparatzo]

That's funny, because recently I've found the opposite to be true. I find an obscure history title or psychological study I want to read on Amazon and then search all the local libraries (City and County) and come up empty. In fact, at least in my area, it seems like the large libraries primarily carry popular titles or oft-read items like magazines, romance novels, recent biographies, etc. In fact, the closer that your book seems to get to being considered a "textbook" the less likely you are to find it in the library.

I always thought of the library as this great storehouse of knowledge and insight. In reality, it seems to be more of a provider of services. As evidence, the county library in my neighborhood is going through a remodel and they've relocated to a small spot in a strip mall close by. There are two shelves of books, with the same amount of space being reserved to magazines. At least 1/2 of the entire space is consumed by public computers. And while every computer is taken, there is typically just one person looking down the aisle of books. Now certainly the lack of people is in large part due to the small number of books, but it strikes me as a view into what the library is evolving into.

Re:selection

[Anonymous Coward]

As evidence, the county library in my neighborhood is going through a remodel and they've relocated to a small spot in a strip mall close by. There are two shelves of books, with the same amount of space being reserved to magazines.

How big is their interlibrary loan selection?

It sounds like they're doing the Redbox thing: warehouse the books wherever land is cheap and put a kiosk in every neighborhood so neighborhoods without libraries can still have a library presence. That doesn't sound like such a bad idea.

Re:selection

[alexander_686]

Libraries do carry books for "financial reasons", in the sense that library space is a cost and libraries don't have unlimited money. They do try to get the most bang out of their buck to server their "customers". Libraries routinely cull their collections. Most libraries have book sales where they get rid of their excess inventory, making room for new books.

That being said, most libraries tend to take a long and deep view. What was trendy yesterday and obscure today is the stuff of historical research tomorrow. This is particularly true for research and archival libraries. That being said, digital storage of media is getting cheaper and better every day.

Re:selection

[Anonymous Coward]

Not all obscure titles are textbooks. Some are out-of-print popular books. Or popular books that have not yet been presented in eBook form. I was looking for example, for one of CH Cherryh's classics that fall under that limitation just yesterday. I'm not too sure about a lot of Gene Wolfe's classics, either. The worst offenders are probably books published between about 1965 (give or take 3 decades) and 5 years ago.

No, there are limits to just how technical I expect books in the public library to be. Of course, the local centers for higher learning also have libraries, and the more technical stuff can often be found there.

Besides technical documents generally don't render very well on a 7-inch e-reader. So when all else fails, grit your teeth and buy the horribly-priced dead tree edition.

Re:selection

[darnkitten]

You might check if your library is considering joining a lending group or partnership. My library is currently a member of a 10-library lending group spread over three counties. We have a volunteer courier system that moves books between libraries fairly efficiently and a shared catalog that allows you to order or borrow from any library in the group. This allows us to specialize in some of the less popular or more obscure materials instead of all having to carry the "popular titles or oft-read items like magazines, romance novels, recent biographies, etc" and to tailor our collections in more interesting ways. My small rural library library has started collecting fiction and non-fiction books published in the UK and Australia, films based on books, and obscure mystery and sci-fi series, while another library in the group collects all the popular political books, thus sparing the rest of us that expense. This last month, almost a fifth of my library's physical checkouts were ordered from other libraries and and we loaned out about two-thirds of that total to other libraries (mostly from the obscure series). It works well enough we are negotiating to join a nearby 7-library system and another 90-something-library system, though that might require us to pay for courier services.

In addition, we offer interlibrary loan services, and have borrowed from as far away as Alaska and Florida. We have ordered academic materials in support of local patrons pursuing graduate degrees and for homeschooling families (we help to cover costs for academic .interlibrary requests, but request return postage for other requests beyond a certain amount). Additionally, many journal articles, some textbook chapters, and similar materials can be provided free as electronic copies through ILL.

I would ask your librarian directly, though. For some inexplicable reason, some libraries don't publicize the the many fine services they offer.

Re:selection

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, you don't really have a library then. two shelves of books?!? I have more than that at home (unless the shelves you are talking about are really, really tall and or really long)

My local library has staff of over 70, their collection includes over 900000 books. About half of that are "textbooks", the rest are novels, kids books, etc. On top of those they have around 150000 "other than books". Most of this is music albums, around 90000. The rest is mostly movies on dvd/blueray. Through the system I can also borrow material from any other library in the country, including most of the scientific libraries. Forgot to mention the magazines. They have pretty mach every magazine published around here. They also carry all the major, and often not so major newspapers from around the world. Granted, my local library is the main library of the area. It has several side libraries with their own book collections.

2 shelves? I'm feeling sad. A library should have at least two floors of books.

We can't get rid of libraries

[tyggna]

Where will my Sims go to live after I burn their house down?

Re:We can't get rid of libraries

[Anonymous Coward]

The local gym is better because it has showers.

The Dewey Decimal System

[TheRealSteveDallas]

Suck it Bezos!

Librarians

[dane23]

You can have my librarians when you pry them from my cold dead grasp.

Re:Librarians

[JoeRandomHacker]

Why is there no "+1 Disturbing"?

Re:Librarians

[Anonymous Coward]

You can have my librarians when you pry them from my cold dead grasp.

Security!

Instead of replacing the library...

[Dcnjoe60]

Libraries were created for the common good. That is why they are free to the public (and paid for through taxes). Instead of replacing the library with a corporation like Amazon.com, maybe what is needed, for the common good, is a public library version of something like Amazon. Already many local libraries allow one to check out e-books.

E-readers and public libraries aren't mutually exclusive. Maybe sometime in the 21st century, there won't be as many physical libraries, but the public library will still exist through through the checking out of free e-books. There is no reason why libraries and book stores could coexist and not e-libraries and Amazon.

Re:Instead of replacing the library...

[Obfuscant]

E-readers and public libraries aren't mutually exclusive.

That's the reason why this current comparison is silly. Let's instead compare the similar functions and similar sources. That would be ebooks and all retailers, not just Amazon.

The one misleading statement the summary contains is that "libraries can have a greater selection". Technically, true. They CAN. But do they?

I've found that my public library's selection of ebooks is VERY much smaller than I can find in online retailers. I can find lots of fluff reading at the library, which is stuff that the common public wants. For more technical or limited demand things the online retailers are much more likely to have copies. And one of the "limited demand" criteria for my public library happens to be politically based.

Fortunately, the university library also does ebooks, and their technical selection is excellent.

The major advantage to the public/uni libraries is that access to the ebooks is free. Selection is less, and I don't believe it will ever become equivalent because it would simply cost too much to cater to everyone.

Re:Instead of replacing the library...

[Dcnjoe60]

Public/uni libraries, even prior to ebooks had less selection that what was commercially available. Whether paper or ebook, they still have to purchase the book with limited funds, so they are more likely to purchase something on the best seller list than something of a technical nature. It's just basic supply and demand and the format of the book doesn't change that.

Re:Instead of replacing the library...

[Obfuscant]

Public/uni libraries, even prior to ebooks had less selection that what was commercially available.

They do, however, have more older things available, so the proper word for the paper stuff would be "different", not specifically "less".

Re:Instead of replacing the library...

[Anonymous Coward]

And that sir is why they are talking about getting rid of them. The common good doesn't help big business increase its choke hold on the peasants. Plus think of all the profits they will get limiting the access to information.

Kindle isn't a public service

[Anonymous Coward]

Why are we even comparing Kindle to a public service that is free by design?

If the idea is to privatize public libraries, then I want nothing to do with it.

I want physical books and magazines

[fivepan]

I realize my tech nerd status may be jeopardized with this statement, but I have zero interest in e-books and magazines. I've tried them...I really, really have. The reader I bought specifically for this purpose now sits somewhere in my kid's room after I gave it to him. Other than for a quick look at recent news or sports scores, I don't read on my phone or tablet. I want the paper versions I can hold in my hand or pluck from the shelf and skim through. As others have mentioned here, public libraries are so much more than just a repository for books but even the books alone is enough for me to never want to give up my library card.

Re:I want physical books and magazines

[Anonymous Coward]

You don't sound like someone who actually reads books, as in literature etc. So, yeah, the e-readers where definitely not made for you. For us bookworms the Kindle has revolutionized our reading (I carry with me all my books at 200g of weight, I go on vacation and I don't even need a PC to get new content etc).

Re:I want physical books and magazines

[countach]

Then buy them yourself. Your idiosyncrasies are not a reason to not push ahead with e-libraries.

Amazon

[Tailhook]

I've been purchasing used books on history, politics and science from Amazon for almost the cost of shipping, which is close to or less than the cost of the fuel it would have taken for the two round trips to the library, and it takes a lot less of my time. Funny thing is, about half of these have library card sleeves. These books sat unread in libraries (you know, the places that supposedly have "content you want to read") for decades almost untouched (based on the condition I find them and the empty cards I find in said sleeves) until the libraries sell them off to make room for more new books almost no one will read. Here are a few from 2013;

(shipping included with these prices.)
Nuclear disaster in the Urals, Zhores A Medvedev, $6.98
The Forsaken: An American Tragedy in Stalin's Russia, hardcover, Tim Tzouliadis, $6.78
Red Atom: Russia's Nuclear Power Program from Stalin to Today, Paul Josephson, $4.94
The Future and Its Enemies: The Growing Conflict Over Creativity, Enterprise, and Progress, Virginia Postrel, $4.00
Behind the Facade of Stalin's Command Economy: Evidence from the Soviet State and Party Archives, Paul R. Gregory, $5.36
The Legacy of Chernobyl, Zhores A Medvedev, $4.49. (got 2x for some reason; gave one to a co-worker.)

I could go on all day as I've been reading this sort of stuff from Amazon for going on ten years now. Most of these are hard covers in excellent condition.

The truth is libraries are dead to me as a source of reading material. I can't afford the time or fuel it takes to frequent them, and they simply can't host the selection I demand, which is why they purge themselves of their stock using Amazon. Right or wrong that's how it is.

Re:Amazon

[turp182]

I hope you have a wife and two kids (minimum on both fronts), because that reading list is NUCLEAR. For the most part.

Re:Amazon

[darnkitten]

Oddly enough, as a small rural librarian, (small library, that is--I am over 6' and overweight :) ), I also purchase obscure ex-library books on Amazon or half.com, for myself, for patrons who can't-or-won't-use-the-internet, and for my library's collection. I can't say I've had any interest in your reading list locally (though it sounds fascinating), but we've purchased reprints of obscure pre-colonial religious texts, archaeological texts on the Vikings, the Kievan Rus, and prehistoric Britain, German-language texts on the period of WWII, and a variety of sociological texts (sociology of American military base design, anyone?). most of these have been at the request of patrons.

Ask--you might well have a local librarian who can justify purchasing interesting reading material from Amazon so that others in your community can enjoy them as well.

BTW, have you thought of thought of joining an online book-lending program? You could be someone else's lending library and someone else could be yours, as well...

Re:Amazon

[Anonymous Coward]

Mod up, underrated comment

Re:Amazon

[Anonymous Coward]

It's a shame when people live so far away from a library. It generally means you're cut you off from most community resource venues, and to some extent, a community in general.

Re:Amazon

[LMariachi]

Just because they have the old sleeves and cards doesn’t mean they were still being used. You don’t know how often they were checked out via barcode after the old handstamp system was retired.

(Paul Josephson was one of my professors! For a seminar class on Appropriate Technology. Good teacher.)

I love my local public library network

[Kevoco]

I don't mean their LAN, I mean the network of libraries with a shared online card catalog and the ability to reserve a book and then receive an email when it has arrived.
My local library is part of BCCLS - bccls.org - 75 Public Libraries in NJ's Bergen, Essex, Hudson, and Passaic Counties

With so many libraries contributing to the inventory, I rarely find myself needing to purchase a book from Amazon. I am an Amazon Prime member, I buy lots of other stuff for sure.

not sure how this is news.

[nimbius]

the fact that a public library is better than a private corporation is pretty much a fact of life.

Re:not sure how this is news.

[anmre]

What's better: municipal parks or the NFL?

Re:not sure how this is news.

[biodata]

not sure if trolling but municipal parks obv.

Re:not sure how this is news.

[anmre]

It was a bad joke. I was agreeing with the OP that an opinionated comparison between two unrelated concepts is not really news for anybody, much less nerds.

Unfortunately I suck a e-jokes :)

KDP Select

[ysth]

There are so many indie books because, AIUI, you cannot choose to have a book included in Kindle Unlimited unless you are providing it to Amazon under the KDP Select program. This program gets you higher percentages and free marketing and promotional tools. The tradeoff is that whatever books you have in the program be available exclusively from Amazon. This is a tradeoff that is going to make sense for many authors, but is just horrible for readers. And in the long run, the lock-in this inspires is bad for the authors too.

See Chris Wright's rant.

Re:KDP Select

[0123456]

Actually, it's because Amazon pay maybe $2 every time an ebook is borrowed, which is fine by most indie authors selling their ebooks for $4.99 or less, but not by trade publishers trying to sell their ebooks at $14.99.

Re:KDP Select

[ysth]

So, you think the trade publishers would be fine with exclusivity and their only beef is the money? I think differently.

Re:KDP Select

[0123456]

You do realize that trade publishers (at least the Big Five) don't use KDP, and all have their own contracts with Amazon, right?

Old books, and getting rare books

[Anonymous Coward]

I can see two advantages to my local library: 1) They have a collection of valuable books, some of them out of print for decades, and 2) if their collection does not include the book, they have the connections to get it for me. I have been able to get hold of a rare book, long since out of print, just by telling the librarian that I really wanted to see it. In the end it came from the far side of the world, Australia (as seen from Denmark)

Forgot something...

[Anonymous Coward]

They both forgot the most important thing libraries have that amazon doesn't, swathes of fucking filthy homeless hanging around getting their diseases everywhere.

The WSJ doesn't really miss the point

[Anonymous Coward]

The point, for the WSJ, is just different from what you think it is. Which is to say, any time you can replace a public service with a private one, that is a good thing from the WSJ's point of view. Getting rid of all the public things--libraries, schools, parks, art, streets, radio, etc.--brings us closer to the ideal of total control by the oligarchy. Open spaces are replaced by controlled spaces, spaces ruled by corporate will.

Not only does Amazon not have what libraries have, but they never will--many libraries house archives that will likely never be digitized, historical records, and the like. I mean, I have access to two major university research libraries and the Boston Public Library, which by itself holds something like 9 million items.

It's the twenty-first century

[jabberw0k]

You and Joe Biden ought to check your calendars; it's been the 21st century for well over a decade now.

Also, real libraries have old and out-of-print books, rare books, maps, art collections, local publications and artifacts, and plenty of things that are highly unlikely ever to be digitized, or which history -- and historians! -- demand be kept for the public good. In this information age, we need librarians more than ever. Get rid of libraries and you scrap civilization itself.

Re:It's the twenty-first century

[alexander_686]

You got me on the date thing – I am showing my age.

On to your point, I would agree that we need librarians and archivist. However you are off point. The topic at hand is about lending libraries and the most efficient way to lend out books, music, movies, etc. Almost everything you point out is in the domain of research, archive, and other special collection libraries. These libraries tend not to lend stuff out. Does it matter if a library or a historical society holds these archives? I can't think of one.

Re:It's the twenty-first century

[Sarius64]

Mod up please! I wish we had anything from the library of Alexandria.

Re:It's the twenty-first century

[nbauman]

Also, real libraries have old and out-of-print books, rare books, maps, art collections, local publications and artifacts, and plenty of things that are highly unlikely ever to be digitized, or which history -- and historians! -- demand be kept for the public good. In this information age, we need librarians more than ever. Get rid of libraries and you scrap civilization itself.

Librarians have another important value. They understand the way information is structured -- what's there and how to find it.

For example, I was researching medical topics. The New York Public Library used to have an excellent medical collection -- and an excellent staff of medical librarians, which is even more important.

One of the librarians explained to me how medical information is structured. When a doctor wants to learn about a new subject, he goes to a review tutorial article, which is designed to give an overview of the field. There are certain medical journals which are generally recognized as core journals -- the New England Journal of Medicine, JAMA, The Lancet, BMJ, and a few others. http://library.mssm.edu/brando... If you look at a Wikipedia medical article, those are the reliable medical sources that they cite. So if I want to learn about macular degeneration, for example, I would start by looking for a review article on macular degeneration in the New England Journal of Medicine.

The point is that the New York Public Library used to have not only books and journals sitting there, but a medical librarian who understood the field (most medical librarians have PhDs in a biomedical science), knew how information was structured, and clued me in.

(In fairness, the NYPL has a good telephone reference service, and I've used it, but it doesn't compare to having a librarian right there to explain it to me and show me how to look it up.)

But now, the New York Public Library tossed out is medical collection, and fired the medical librarians.

Mayor Bloomberg said, "OK, let's throw out all the paper and get digital subscriptions. People will even be able to use them from home. We don't need libraries." Here's the catch: A personal subscription to the New England Journal of Medicine is $100. A library subscription to the paper edition is $4-500, because journal subscriptions are based on the number of patrons who can read it. A digital subscription to the New England Journal of Medicine costs thousands of dollars. A librarian told me that they would charge her based on the number of patrons in the entire New York Public Library system, which would be tens of thousands of dollars. They charge even more to let your patrons read it from home.

I will leave it to you to consider the absurdity of New York City, one of the world's major medical centers, without a medical collection in its public library, at a time when we're supposed to become medical consumers. Let them eat Wikipedia.

Re:It's the twenty-first century

[david_thornley]

They should have digitized the scrolls before the fires.

Missing the point

[William Baric]

The only reason for local libraries is copyright laws.

Re:Missing the point

[biodata]

This. Plus it's somewhere to go and read books and magazines, check out the internet if you can't afford it or are away from home, and get help with finding information from skilled experts at finding information.

Here's a crazy idea

[wonkey_monkey]

Why not have both?

Evil Library

[JimSadler]

Take a hard core right wing idiot like Florida Governor Rick Scott, who is one of the sickest republicans alive and give him power over libraries. Guess what he did!!!!! The poor often don't have net access or computers of any kind nor know how to use them. So you make all social benefits by computer only forcing the poor to go to the libraries. That may be quite expensive as our libraries can be far from the bushes in which the poor sleep around here. Then when they get to the library they will often find a two or three hour wait before it is their turn. And it just keeps getting better. They have no mail addresses or stoves or refrigerators so food stamps are out. And the state will chop off any benefit which they might be entitled to simply because they can't get mail. Knowing that the state sends out numerous mails requiring a time demand answer. Then we have the next treat. The public library is open to all which means the poor and alcoholics and dope addicts try to stay inside the library for many hours during the hot days in Florida. But even in the various fugues and trances caused by untreated mental illness, addiction, malnutrition and a host of nasty diseases these folks get a slice of revenge. Between the isles in the stacks they urinate, take a dump if they are not leaking directly into the chairs and sofas. I guess Rick Scott has figured out that they save on water bills if the poor don't use the toilets but use the floors instead. So what the right wing has created is what used to be a jewel of civilization called the library and made it into a stinking useless joke filled with the lowest classes of people who do not read a thing while they are there.

Public libraries buy ebooks from Amazon

[oneiros27]

There's actually been a bit of discussion among the library community -- most libraries who offer ebooks get them via Overdrive, which has some major ties (is owned by?) Amazon.

But most libraries have privacy policies, but there's now a third party that can track their citizen's reading habits. There's also complaints about how Amazon sends e-mails to people who have 'checked out' ebooks that tells them to buy the book when it's about to 'expire'.

See, for example, the comments from Librarian Black. (it's in video form, but she raises issues about state laws on keeping lending info private, and most library's policies of not endorsing companies). It's possible that it's changed; I refuse to check out ebooks from my local library, as it's using Overdrive.

No shortage of Arrogance

[pubwvj]

"Kindle Unlimited is stocked almost entirely with indie titles, with a handful of major titles thrown in."

My, my, your arrogance is showing. The big publishing houses have no monopoly on good literature. "Indie Titles" represent a tremendous amount of really great reading. Broaden your mind.

Besides, the public library is way the heck in town. That's a long drive for many of us in rural areas and those public libraries that are that mere long drive are not very big.

Fortunately, the web, iBooks, Kindle and public libraries and our own bookshelves can all happily coexist. It is not a matter of either-or. We can have it all.

There's another reason to stay with print books.

[Anonymous Coward]

It will never be practical to corrupt or destroy all the copies of any widely-printed title. But once people rely overwhelmingly on electronic libraries, it will not be long before such an event is discovered - that some political or religious group or foreign government had released a worm that alters specific works, and no one had noticed it for months or years. With e-books, something like the Ministry of Truth becomes very practical, erasing and rewriting the past to suit the agenda of the present.

It alway comes back around...

[Sir Holo]

Best Buy was frequently called the "Showroom for Amazon."

What goes around comes around. Eaxmple:

Amazon is my "Showroom for the local library." (Also for books, before go buy them elsewhere – used – many ex-library copies.)

Where

[Anonymous Coward]

And where will the homeless go and stay all day to get out of the weather?

Kindle Unlimited Library

[claude.j.greengrass8]

There are many books available at my local library that will never be available via Kindle.

Digital Access versus Digital Restriction

[noidentity]

Digital public libraries could be OK if they didn't make you use a certain OS and certain software to view the books. PDF downloads for everyone, searchable. The crap our local library has is worse than useless, because I spent lots of time trying to get it to work but it's clear it does not want it to be easy.

Good for just browsing

[the_arrow]

One thing that libraries are very good for, is to just walk around aimlessly along the shelves and see what's there. You still can't do that online.

For example, I was at a library just the other day, and didn't really know what book I wanted, so I just wandered around, picking up a book here, a book there, putting back a book when I found something more interesting. Left the library with The Complete Conan Saga, and Gaimans The Ocean at the End of the Lane.

Re:Good for just browsing

[nbauman]

One thing that libraries are very good for, is to just walk around aimlessly along the shelves and see what's there. You still can't do that online.

For example, I was at a library just the other day, and didn't really know what book I wanted, so I just wandered around, picking up a book here, a book there, putting back a book when I found something more interesting. Left the library with The Complete Conan Saga, and Gaimans The Ocean at the End of the Lane.

Good point. Librarians know that. They know their patrons, and put together an interesting collection for them. So I used to go to the science and math section, the 500s and 600s, and find a good small collection of science and math books. I could pull out a book like The World of Mathematics. When I go to a big open-shelf university collection, the 500s might go on for ten shelves, but most of them will be specialized books, like, a 1995 conference proceedings.

Small libraries can be better than big libraries.

Forgot something...

[Anonymous Coward]

How about you give them a home? You are spending more money bombing others homes than the upkeep of the libraries and housing al lthe homeless people would take combined.

Oublic library are safe due to other reason

[aepervius]

At least in UK orwell book will not be removed from public library anytime soon. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07...

Touch and feel

[coofercat]

I'd live to give my kids a copy of "That's not my ___" (http://www.usborne.com/catalogue/subject/1~b~bbtnm/thats-not-my.aspx) with it's touch and feel areas on Kindle. I'm sure they'd find a way to get some touch and feel sensation out of it, by maybe chewing the corners, dribbling on it it generally trying to use it in ways the manufacturer doesn't advise.

Closing libraries in preference to kindle (or any other e-book reader) is quite probably the stupidest idea I've heard on the subject. It's great for the trash novels and other ephemeral crap, but for just about anything decent, or *shudder* different, it fails entirely.

tech-support

[StripedCow]

The fact of the matter is, you can't use KU, Scribd, or Oyster if you don't know how to use your device, and your local public library is the best place to learn.

So do I understand correctly that you want to retrain local librarians in tech-support workers?

public libraries

[Anonymous Coward]

The Bucks County (Pennsylvania) library also lends out movies and music, yoga kits and baking pans. It has ebooks, too, but the last I checked, the selection was paltry. It has meeting rooms for patrons, events for children and adults, and best of all, it's a place where one reader can always find another. I get great recommendations from total strangers who are also browsing the stacks. Mind you, I love my Kindle, but if I had to choose, I'd go with the library any time.

Sniping Commentary

[Frightened_Turtle]

"Luckily for libraries, they're safe for now because they still beat Kindle Unlimited and its competitors in at least one category: content you want to read.

There is so much wrong with that backhanded insult that there is no "content you want to read" among self-published books.

Currently, the top bestsellers lists contain more self-published authors than authors represented by publishing houses. Self-publishing authors are outselling traditionally published authors and are .

The OP's comment comes from the misnomer that self-publishing is the last bastion of a writer whose writing was so bad, he couldn't get it accepted. The reality is the cartel of the Big-5 publishing companies have been artificially keeping the number of authors on the market artificially small so they could better control the markets in terms of product availability and price controls.

The advent of digital publishing has given authors a way to get around the market controls of big-industry publishing. Even traditionally published authors such as Barry Eisler and H.M. Ward have walked away from the publishing houses and turned to self-publishing. The work coming out of self-published authors is incredible. Hugh Howey's dystopian science fiction Wool would probably have never seen the light of day if not for self-publishing and his books have sold millions of copies. There are other yet-to-be discovered authors such as William D. Richards Aggadeh Chronicles Book 1: Nobody or Michael Patrick Hicks Convergence who are turning out real page turners with gripping stories and excellent writing.

Yeah, there is some crap out there (published as a joke; read the description; the author, Phronk, is a satirist and pretty damned funny). If you are unsure about a book by a self-published author, just download the free sample of their work and see how it reads before you buy. Many authors with a series of books offer the first book free—if you don't like it, you aren't out any money. If you do, then you've got a whole series to buy.

Many independent writers take their craft very seriously. They employ a team of editors, proof readers, and a cover artist or two to ensure that the reader is going to get the best reading experience possible. If they weren't putting so much work into assuring the quality of their work was there, the self-publishing movement would have collapsed years ago. Instead, because of the commitment to quality by the authors, the self-publishing movement has been growing in strength, variety, and quality. Self-published authors gain no support from advance payments, no corporate backing, and no financial assistance. They are not subsidized by monies from other authors (as is a practice in traditional publishing). Instead, they make 100% of their incomes from direct sales to readers. If they weren't doing the proper Q.A. on their books, their livelihoods would be unsustainable.

So, don't go listening to big-publishing shills trying to shoot down the first real competition they've ever faced. There is plenty of excellent reading to be found among self-publising writers, contrary to what the O.P. alludes. And as far as public libraries are concerned, independent writers are huge supporters of libraries, unlike big-industry publishers who try to milk money from municipalities by over-charging libraries for books and ebooks.

Re:Sniping Commentary

[mphicks]

Even traditionally published authors such as Barry Eisler and H.M. Ward have walked away from the publishing houses and turned to self-publishing. The work coming out of self-published authors is incredible. Hugh Howey's dystopian science fiction Wool would probably have never seen the light of day if not for self-publishing and his books have sold millions of copies. There are other yet-to-be discovered authors such as William D. Richards Aggadeh Chronicles Book 1: Nobody or Michael Patrick Hicks Convergence who are turning out real page turners with gripping stories and excellent writing.

Hi Frightened_Turtle,

I just wanted to say thank you for mentioning my work here. Your kind words are very much appreciated, and to see myself mentioned in the same graf as Barry Eisler and Hugh Howey is high praise indeed, IMHO. Thank you!

Mike

Re:Sniping Commentary

[david_thornley]

I don't think GP was saying that there was nothing good on KU. I think GP was saying the library was better at it.

There's stuff I like to read that was published by the big publishing companies, and so I doubt it's on KU. I can get it at the library (although there may be a wait).

If something's not on KU, I'm SOL. If something is not in the library, but was published in paper, I can almost certainly get it through interlibrary loan.

Define 'beat'

[johnlcallaway]

'Trumps' means there are a list of requirements and measurable facts. Since I haven't been to a library in years, they don't 'trump' Kindle for me.

The library may have more books, but as long as there are books I want to read on Amazon, it's kinda irrelevant. When I can carry a large selection of reference books and entertainment inside every device I have, Amazon wins. I'm sure both places offer items not offered by the other one. The library has rarely carried technical books for anything related to computers that was anything near current. I might be able to look at a book covering the history of computers, but it's doubtful they will have the latest Oracle or Java or iOS or Android development book for the latest release. I'm sure other people in other fields (medical, legal, etc) probably have similar issues with the library.

The library serves a tax-supported purpose by providing a place for those without means or skills the opportunity to read a wide variety of material and have access to a wide range of technical, educational, and self-improvement resources with assistance. It also provides a place for people who like books and can buy them, to not have to buy them. Saves building up stockpiles of dead trees in the basement.

But it only 'trumps' Amazon within a very constrained requirements list created by one person that identifies a small group of people that benefit from the library. A person that probably decided to prove that libraries are still relevant (they are) and wanted to justify that cause. While I agree her argument is valid when used to justify funding libraries, stating that libraries 'trumps' Kindle is a personal opinion and not a fact.

Cheap Insurance

[cwsumner]

At least part of the library still works if the power is lost. That might be -really- important some time...

A Revisionists Dream

[Anonymous Coward]

Replacing many diverse repositories of hard copy (hard to change on a whim) information with a centrally controlled (easily changed on a whim) electronic repository with many endpoints. This would be a revisionists dream come true...

I believe the dangers of this power have been demonstrated before.

Thanks for seven valid points

[tepples]

You make some valid points. So let me sum them up: Memory palace effect of being able to see covers, reading without having to use wall power or solar panel, purchase outliving the publisher, supportive local staff, smell association effect, resale, and shock and moisture tolerance.

Re:Thanks for seven valid points

[david_thornley]

Could I add easier browsing? If I'm interested in a general topic, I'll often find that the books are in close physical proximity. I haven't found browsing on eReader or computer to be nearly as efficient.

In my house, books also helped the income of a structural engineer, who we hired to look at what was causing the cracks in the walls. Turned out the house hadn't been quite designed for the weight of the books.

A steady diet of Gutenberg

[tepples]

Be careful that you don't pick up values dissonance from the opinions expressed in your 19th century reads.

Analogy

[Astfgl]

Public library : Kindle Unlimited :: Netflix DVD plan : Netflix Streaming plan