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How English Beat German As the Language of Science

HughPickens.com writes German was the dominant scientific language in 1900. Today if a scientist is going to coin a new term, it's most likely in English. And if they are going to publish a new discovery, it is most definitely in English. Look no further than the Nobel Prize awarded for physiology and medicine to Norwegian couple May-Britt and Edvard Moser. Their research was written and published in English. How did English come to dominate German in the realm of science? BBC reports that the major shock to the system was World War One, which had two major impacts. According to Gordin, after World War One, Belgian, French and British scientists organized a boycott of scientists from Germany and Austria. They were blocked from conferences and weren't able to publish in Western European journals. "Increasingly, you have two scientific communities, one German, which functions in the defeated [Central Powers] of Germany and Austria, and another that functions in Western Europe, which is mostly English and French," says Gordin.

The second effect of World War One took place in the US. Starting in 1917 when the US entered the war, there was a wave of anti-German hysteria that swept the country. In Ohio, Wisconsin and Minnesota there were many, many German speakers. World War One changed all that. "German is criminalized in 23 states. You're not allowed to speak it in public, you're not allowed to use it in the radio, you're not allowed to teach it to a child under the age of 10," says Gordin. The Supreme Court overturned those anti-German laws in 1923, but for years they were the law of the land. What that effectively did, according to Gordin, was decimate foreign language learning in the US resulting in a generation of future scientists who came of age with limited exposure to foreign languages. That was also the moment, according to Gordin, when the American scientific establishment started to take over dominance in the world. "The story of the 20th Century is not so much the rise of English as the serial collapse of German as the up-and-coming language of scientific communication," concludes Gordin.

323 comments

  1. WWII proably didn't help much either by NotDrWho · · Score: 3, Insightful

    ...unless you're willing to hold your nose on where you get your rocket scientists.

    --
    SJW's don't eliminate discrimination. They just expropriate it for themselves.
    1. Re:WWII proably didn't help much either by rwa2 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      And yet the funny / ironic thing is the Werner von Braun orchestrated a surrender of his team to the US instead of the rapidly advancing Russian forces due to religious reasons... he would prefer the German rocket scientists fall into the hands of Christians instead of atheists.

      The ensuing space race / cold war could have turned out much differently.

    2. Re:WWII proably didn't help much either by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The Soviets did capture quite a few V2 scientists themselves, they just weren't ever desperate enough to promote them to trusted positions. After Sputnik, the U.S. was willing to pretend all that "used Jew slave labor to build weapons of mass destruction" stuff never happened--as long as the old Nazis could help 'Merica beat them evil Ruskies!

    3. Re:WWII proably didn't help much either by LWATCDR · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Not really von Braun did more as political figure than as an engineer. The Thor, Atlas, and Titan had very little input from von Braun and Polaris and Minuteman had zero.
      I doubt that religion had much to do with it. I am sure avoiding being slaves in Russia had a lot more to do with it.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    4. Re:WWII proably didn't help much either by jellomizer · · Score: 1, Interesting

      So you had the choose of optional Christianity vs. Mandatory Atheism.
      Now the U.S. weren't any saints but our culture was separated by an ocean from the war and were able keep our ideals a little more in controlled and more willing to accept different people especially in the more urban areas.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    5. Re:WWII proably didn't help much either by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Huh? But the Russians invented Cosmism, the religion of space.

    6. Re:WWII proably didn't help much either by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Sounds like a distinction without a difference. If predominately-Christian America was generally less-likely to enslave its war captives than officially-atheist Russia (and it was) it's the same thing, whether you choose to call it religion-motivated or expectations-motivated.

    7. Re:WWII proably didn't help much either by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not just rocket scientists. Operation Paperclip was just the tip of the iceberg. Scientists for the whole aeronautical industry (Germany was far ahead in a lot of fields, as well as behind), in guns, and a slew of other things.

      But most important was converting the German spymasters and their informants into spying for the western powers, especially in the east, as soon as chill took over in Soviet and American relations.

      America can now pretend to hold it's "nose", on these people, but a large amount of Germans were encouraged to enter America, encouraged to lie on papers by the American authorities themselves, and then conveniently shoved under the bus after their purpose was served. And it was widely known. Hypocritical for a country to play the spotless morality queen after that.

    8. Re:WWII proably didn't help much either by pegdhcp · · Score: 3, Funny

      Yes otherwise Soviets would be first to send a satellite into the orbit and a human to the space. Also USA would be in need of Soviet rockets to send their astronauts to the ISS as of now... Ah, wait, I was trying to see what is happening in an alternate reality and suddenly a paradox occurred I guess.Sorry guys...

    9. Re:WWII proably didn't help much either by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Exactly. My mom was born in '37, the youngest of a large German family in the mid-west. Most of her older siblings speak it fluently, but she knows almost none. Many of her older brothers ended up fighting for the US in Germany, where their language skills were an asset. Ironic given that such knowledge was simultaneously being suppressed at home.

    10. Re:WWII proably didn't help much either by Hognoxious · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Bollocks. It's just a coincidence that two different ways of making a choice lead to the same outcome.

      It's like arguing that x^2 and 2x are the same because it happens to work if x == 2.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    11. Re:WWII proably didn't help much either by GrahamCox · · Score: 2

      Werner von Braun orchestrated a surrender of his team to the US instead of the rapidly advancing Russian forces due to religious reasons

      Citation needed? I'm sure he had plenty of good reasons. The Germans were very well aware of their likely fate at the hands of the Russians - they not only had a brutal reputation but the Germans knew that they felt justified in using that brutality in revenge. As the Red Army swept across eastern Germany, in some villages more people committed suicide than were left remaining afterwards. Thousands of women were raped. The Allied powers on the other hand were seen as the far "milder" enemy - in fact in the early stages of the war Hitler didn't even expect to have to fight the British and Americans, he expected a negotiated peace.

      Von Braun was well aware of all of this and knew that if he was captured by the Russians, the worst he could expect was to be summarily shot. On the other hand the worst he could expect from the Allies was a fair trial. In the end he didn't even need to go through that.

    12. Re:WWII proably didn't help much either by rwa2 · · Score: 1

      There are a lot of interesting citations coming back from a search for "von Braun surrender Christian", and there seems to be a fair amount of revisionist history efforts to color him one way or the other, ranging from " von Braun was Lutheran but never talked about it or practiced it and didn't go to church" to "von Braun was a devout Creationist with many published treatises on the matter". But yeah, can't discount the practical considerations over the ideological ones.

      Another entertaining tangent is whether Hitler's invasion of Russia was just his attempt at saving the Russians from Stalin, who did a remarkable job offing his own citizens. We actually met some white Russians (the Russian Orthodox tsarists who fled their homeland to the US after the Bolshevik revolution) who were actually on Hitler's side of the conflict, reasoning that if he freed the Russians from communism they might be able to return home.

    13. Re:WWII proably didn't help much either by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Even funnier is an observation that Russian people are more religious than Americans.

    14. Re:WWII proably didn't help much either by tehcyder · · Score: 1

      And yet the funny / ironic thing is the Werner von Braun orchestrated a surrender of his team to the US instead of the rapidly advancing Russian forces due to religious reasons... he would prefer the German rocket scientists fall into the hands of Christians instead of atheists.

      The ensuing space race / cold war could have turned out much differently.

      I'd love to have seen the intellectual acrobatics he went through to reconcile his "Christianity" with being a Nazi mass murderer.

      --
      To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
    15. Re:WWII proably didn't help much either by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      Another entertaining tangent is whether Hitler's invasion of Russia was just his attempt at saving the Russians from Stalin, who did a remarkable job offing his own citizens. We actually met some white Russians (the Russian Orthodox tsarists who fled their homeland to the US after the Bolshevik revolution) who were actually on Hitler's side of the conflict, reasoning that if he freed the Russians from communism they might be able to return home.

      There's plenty of material available on collaboration of various nations inhabiting the Soviet Union with the Nazis, including Russians. But ultimately, the collaborators were all wrong in one thing: they assumed that because their government lies to them about everything, it also lies about how bad the Nazi are. Look up "Generalplan Ost" for details.

    16. Re:WWII proably didn't help much either by Kartu · · Score: 1

      None of them was even remotely at Von Braun's level.

    17. Re:WWII proably didn't help much either by Kartu · · Score: 1

      Oh yeah. We saw how well things fly without vB, cough, Vanguard rocket, cough

  2. German illegal? by deadweight · · Score: 4, Insightful

    German was *illegal*?? WF? All the current "this politician has totally undermined the constitution in ways never seem before" crap must come from people with short memories.

    1. Re:German illegal? by i+kan+reed · · Score: 1

      FYI, most people weren't even born in 1923 when it was overturned. Only about a half a percent of the population is above the age of 90.

    2. Re:German illegal? by NotDrWho · · Score: 1, Redundant

      Hell, that was in an era when the Comstock Laws made it legal for the Postal Service to search through your mail to make sure you weren't sending information on contraception. And when supporting "anarchism" or "Bolshevism" could get you thrown in prison. And when supporting a mine strike could get you killed.

      --
      SJW's don't eliminate discrimination. They just expropriate it for themselves.
    3. Re:German illegal? by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 0, Troll

      I remember in 2012 when there was a Congressional hearing to decide if Muslims should be illegal. A coworker was watching it crying. I took a look... jesus christ what the fuck? They were actually discussing if the Islamic faith was so toxic that we should barre anyone Arab or Islamic from entering the country, eject the ones we have, strip all kinds of rights, and imprison or monitor any practicing Muslim or person of descent from an Islamic family.

      FDR all over again. Concentration camps, anyone?

      And NOBODY seemed to have a problem with this!!!

    4. Re:German illegal? by plopez · · Score: 2

      If you take a clear unbiased look at US history this happens over and over. The US changed the language after breaking off from Britain changing 's' to 'z' in many spellings for example, the role of the Spanish in the western US is glossed over and contracts land deeds which by treaty the US was supposed to honor in the peace treaty with Mexico were voided, newly arrived immigrants were often banned from jobs and political office, Jews and Catholics treated as second class citizens, Japanese interred, black activists; such as the Black Panthers; assassinated, people of color are *still* trying to be barred from voting, and now it is the Muslims turn. Not too pretty.

      --
      putting the 'B' in LGBTQ+
    5. Re:German illegal? by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 4, Insightful

      FYI, most people weren't even born in 1923 when it was overturned.

      People should be able to use books, or the internet, to learn about things from other eras. The point is that claiming "things are worse than ever" is pretty silly in a country where it used to be common for people to own slaves.

    6. Re:German illegal? by i+kan+reed · · Score: 1

      Well, sure. But there are worse abuses in more recent history. One only needs to turn their gaze on segregation and go "oh, yeah, half our country thought second-class citizens were a great idea".

    7. Re:German illegal? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >The point is that claiming "things are worse than ever" is pretty silly in a country where it used to be common for people to own slaves.

      Of course it is, and people reveal themselves as idiots when they falsely claim that things are worse than ever.
      Unfortunately so many of the regressive types that long for the terrible past do so because they want their white privilege back.

    8. Re:German illegal? by Bigbutt · · Score: 2

      Voyage of the Damned when almost 1,000 Jews were turned away from the US in 1939.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M...

      [John]

      --
      Shit better not happen!
    9. Re:German illegal? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      And NOBODY seemed to have a problem with this!!!

      Of course not! It's okay when democrats (the party of George Wallace) do this. The last democrat president that suffered any serious protests was Johnson, and that's because the republicans were sane then, actually standing up for civil rights, and the democrats were more overtly racist. Remember it was Eisenhower who sent the first troops (regular army!) in to desegregate the schools.

      No, the present situation with everyone bowing down before Obama is much worse than the Reagan worship of the 80s.

    10. Re:German illegal? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What would you expect in a "country" where 25% of the population believes that the Sun revolves around the Earth. What is more to say to that ....

    11. Re:German illegal? by Hadlock · · Score: 4, Informative

      My grandparents are 82 and I only learned last year (at age 30) that they both speak fluent German.They changed the spelling of their last name and learned English due to social pressures. This was in a predominantly German-speaking rural Texas community surrounded by other German-speaking communities*, I can only imagine how badly speaking German was stigmatized in urban academic circles. This is a real thing.
       
      *Texas has it's own recognized dialect of German, look it up on Wikipedia

      --
      moox. for a new generation.
    12. Re:German illegal? by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 2

      I remember in 2012 when there was a Congressional hearing to decide if Muslims should be illegal.

      Citation please.

    13. Re:German illegal? by Jason+Levine · · Score: 3, Informative

      The history of the US is filled with great moments, but also with horrible moments. There's also the Japanese internment during WW2 and the Ludlow Massacre where striking workers and their families were killed by company militia and National Guard troops.

      --
      My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
    14. Re:German illegal? by Spy+Handler · · Score: 1

      And NOBODY seemed to have a problem with this!!!

      A lot of people did have a problem with this apparently, because Islam is more praised and protected by the US gov't now than ever.

      I am not familiar with the congressional hearing you're referring to. Were they discussing stripping rights from Muslims living in the US, including US citizens, and imprisoning or deporting them summarily? Because that's what it sounds like you're saying.

      I'll just say that there is a metric ton of difference between rounding up citizens and lawful residents based on their religion, and simply barring entry of foreign nationals from another country. Former is a flagrant violation of constitutional and human rights, while the latter is simply called controlling your borders -- something every sovereign nation in history has done and is self-evidently entitled to.

    15. Re:German illegal? by NatasRevol · · Score: 1

      It can't revolve around a flat land, duh.

      --
      There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
    16. Re:German illegal? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It was the same congressional hearing that wanted to make counting to ten illegal, i.e. the non-existent one.

    17. Re:German illegal? by Sperbels · · Score: 2

      But all that's behind us now and the US gov only does benevolent things now. Right?

    18. Re:German illegal? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Yes. That is why a pedantic and painfully logical interpretation of the constitution is usually for the best, even when you don't much like the result. Popular opinion often leads to a lot of creative interpretation that looks evil in hindsight. I can't wait until the 9th amendment starts getting some real traction. The roots of freedom lie in letting people do things you don't like so much, as long as it is causing no harm to you.

      My mother and uncle were born in the days of anti-German hysteria, my grandfather was Swiss, and grandmother Austrian. At home, they spoke a dielect of German that most Germans would consider hardly German, but to their American neighbors, it was German enough. When my mother started school, she came home crying every day because her English was so heavily accented. My grandparents switched overnight to speaking English at home (which they probably should have doen earlier, but for different reasons.) My uncle, two years old at the time, remembers being highly confused that one day he could ask for bread and get bread, the next day he would ask for bread and get his hand slapped.

      Another neighbor, born of Swiss parents about the same time, told me about checking his lunch as he walked to school, and throwing the sandwich in the ditch if it was Swiss cheese. He didn't want to be teased about being a German cheese-eater.

    19. Re:German illegal? by dbc · · Score: 1

      argh. wasn't logged in. parent post is mine.

    20. Re:German illegal? by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      It was covered a lot at the time, and they even had hearings to follow-up, and hearings about the hearings. There were congressional hearings to discuss if the hearings were themselves illegal because of how they were targeting and proposing to target Muslim-Americans, and hearings to discuss the response of Muslim-Americans to the hearings about the civil rights of Muslim-Americans and their status as an internal threat to the security of the nation.

      It's funny looking back at news articles, at clips of the hearings, at a brief few minutes stolen here and there. At times, it looks quite tame. Watching them actually occur was ... disturbing. After a few minutes, I was already waiting for the ghost of FDR to appear and tell everyone to just throw those brown-skinned suicide bombers into the concentration camps with the Japs and Krauts.

      We talk about this once great nation; I wonder if it was ever great.

    21. Re:German illegal? by dbc · · Score: 1

      And this is attached to the wrong comment. oooof. Having a bad post day today.

    22. Re:German illegal? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The point is that claiming "things are worse than ever" is pretty silly in a country where it used to be common for people to own slaves.

      Unless you are the owner of the slaves...

    23. Re:German illegal? by the+gnat · · Score: 1

      I remember in 2012 when there was a Congressional hearing to decide if Muslims should be illegal.

      The links you provided do not support this description. Moreover, the way our system of government works, any moron congressman with an agenda can hold hearings to discuss his bedwetting problems. That doesn't necessarily make it representative of popular sentiment, and it certainly doesn't make it official government policy.

    24. Re: German illegal? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thought?

      No no no, you mean still think

    25. Re:German illegal? by the+gnat · · Score: 1

      everyone bowing down before Obama

      Uh, who is bowing before Obama? A large fraction of the Democratic legislators running for re-election this year are actively avoiding mentioning his name.

    26. Re:German illegal? by swilly · · Score: 2

      This was very common. Germans emigrated in large numbers in the late 19th century, but you wouldn't know it today. In response to public outrage at unrestricted submarine warfare many Germans immigrants Anglicized their names, turning Schmidt into Smith, Wilhelm into Williams, and so on. Anglicization also happened in England, with the most notable case being the rename of Saxe-Coburg to Windsor (yes, the English royal family were Germans with blatantly German names).

    27. Re:German illegal? by The+Ickle+Jones · · Score: 1

      Right. You can tell exactly how informed and intelligent someone is when they suggest that things like the NSA's mass surveillance are alright. How could the government possibly abuse that?

    28. Re:German illegal? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      All the current "this politician has totally undermined the constitution in ways never seem before" crap must come from people with short memories.

      The banning of German by some State legislatures is nothing compared to Obama lawlessly assuming dictatorial powers to ignore or change laws according to his own whims since the banning of German represented action by hundreds of individuals, not the concentration of power into the hands of a single individual. Never before has a U.S. President grabbed so much unilateral authority with the possible exception of Lincoln. I won't bother presenting a long list of all of Obama's transgressions since those inclined to support him will just put their fingers in their ears and chant "la-la-la-la ..."

    29. Re:German illegal? by DerekLyons · · Score: 2

      And this isn't old news either - that a Presidential candidate (JFK) was Catholic was a divisive issue within living memory.

      The problem with knowing the truth of US history is, starting in the 60's the black civil rights movement co-opted the idea of discrimination and painted in simple black-and-white terms. Steadily since then, except for things like the internment of the Japanese that simply couldn't be overwritten, the story of discrimination and persecution in the US has been told solely in terms of antisemitism and Jim Crow.

    30. Re:German illegal? by jasonditz · · Score: 1

      My high school didn't offer German language classes and at the time (20 years ago) it was explained to me that the local anti-German language law was still on the books. I don't know that this was actually true, and the Supreme Court ruling certainly made such laws unenforceable, but it pushed me into three years of French instead.

    31. Re:German illegal? by bobbied · · Score: 5, Interesting

      The USA has not always walked worthy of the document that started it all (The Declaration of Independence) but we are generally progressing towards the realization of it's principles.

      Did we have slaves? Initially, yes. However, we did fight a bloody civil war in the 1860's and managed to abolish it in our laws. Tens of thousands of lives, both white and black where lost in this war. The USA paid in blood to do right.

      Did we illegally arrest and hold Japanese Americans during WWII? Yes, but we have recognized that it was wrong and done what we can to restore what was lost.

      Did we take territory from Mexico during a war? Of course, during the war we actually took ALL of Mexico, seems to me we gave a lot of it back and I'd bet that the people who live there now wish we had kept it all. Also don't forget that this war was to protect the disputed areas called Texas which had already declared it's independence and then joined the Union in 1845. Territory that had gone though multiple country's hands, including France, Spain before Mexico ended up with it. But this war was initiated by Mexico's attacks, and when the USA totally defeated Mexico, we gave most of it back to them.

      Civil rights laws have (as a matter of law) established equal rights for all Americans. We may not have lived up to that ideal, but it is ILLEGAL to discriminate based on race or gender. Any failure to meet that ideal needs to be subject to legal action and dealt with in the courts.

      How all this says that the USA is a bad place is beyond me. Are we perfect? No. But we are advancing closer to the ideal expressed in our founding document. "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." We need to keep advancing on the ideal set forth in the Declaration of Independence and should not abandon our past by declaring the USA a lost cause. Because it will only truly be a lost cause if we give up.

      --
      "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
    32. Re:German illegal? by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      I don't care. That the system of government theoretically can't do a thing and that it aspires to do a thing it shall fail at are two different things; our system of government has succeeded in imprisoning anyone for being German or Japanese, for expressing a political ideal, and for any number of other things it is designed not to imprison people for. That they held hearings as such is itself a cause for alarm, and I don't give a damn what you have to say about what our government is designed to not allow those hearings to accomplish.

    33. Re:German illegal? by Darinbob · · Score: 1

      Nixon's southern strategy is what helped flip a lot of this, along with a two party system. One of the two parties (sometimes both) wants to get the votes of the intolerant bloc.

    34. Re:German illegal? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Remember that great != perfect

    35. Re:German illegal? by bobbied · · Score: 3, Interesting

      One small correction... We returned a LOT of Mexico, but not MOST of it after the war. The USA kept 55% or so but the land was seen as worthless, having little water. However, in the treaty that ended the war we did pay some of their debts and damages. Also, any citizens of Mexico where offered relocation from the territory if they wanted to stay in Mexico. If they stayed, they where given immediate US citizenship including the right to vote.

      --
      "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
    36. Re:German illegal? by lgw · · Score: 1

      If you paid more attention to state legislatures, you'd be in a never-ending state of panic. There's no end of absolutely crazy crap proposed, and the state congrescritters seemingly oblivious to it, because it has no chance of ever going anywhere. That's the entire point of democracy, after all: the freedom to propose fringe ideas, to succeed or fail on the whim of the majority. It's absolutely the worst possible system of government (except for everything else that's ever been tried).

      But it's not particularly alarming when there's a "hearing" on some stupid BS. Think of it as a safety blow-off valve for crazy.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    37. Re:German illegal? by CODiNE · · Score: 1

      Equally silly is the "things are better than ever" response to that.

      Some things are better, some things are worse. Let's look at the evidence to see which it is in the case of $RANDOM_TOPIC.

      --
      Cwm, fjord-bank glyphs vext quiz
    38. Re:German illegal? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you take a clear unbiased look at US history this happens over and over.

      Violations of the Constitution by lawless politicians happen over and over? Never to the extent that it is happening now.

      The US changed the language after breaking off from Britain changing 's' to 'z' in many spellings for example

      Daniel Webster played a key role in improving the standardization of English spelling. So what?

      the role of the Spanish in the western US is glossed over

      Even if true, so what? The Spanish claimed large territories which are now part of the US, but they were never able to populate them with more than a few tens of thousands of people. For example, I believe there were only about 18,000 Latinos in CA when the US acquired it. Thankfully, US culture is based on English culture, not Spanish culture. That's why the US isn't as disfunctional as Latin America. Be grateful for that.

      land deeds which by treaty the US was supposed to honor in the peace treaty with Mexico were voided

      Governments don't always honor treaties. It sucks sometimes, but that's the way of the world. That's why you should never fully trust the government and should never cede control over your life to the government.

      newly arrived immigrants were often banned from jobs and political office

      ... and many newly arrived immigrants have also found fame and fortune. Ask yourself why immigrants have continued to flock to the US if it treats immigrants so horribly? Does that make any sense to you? Maybe the US doesn't treat new immigrants as poorly as you have been told. Incidentally, why shouldn't people born in foreign countries be banned from political office? There are real concerns about the degree of assimilation and loyalty to the country for anyone just off the boat. In any case, those bans disappear for the first generation born in the US. Contrast that to most nations in which generations pass without new immigrant group ever being fully accepted. The US has been more accepting of new comers than any other country, ever. Try not to lose perspective in your efforts to hate the US.

      Jews and Catholics treated as second class citizens

      Human nature makes people distrust those who are different. A cursory review of the centuries of sectarian conflict and factional fighting in Europe makes the distrust displayed by mostly Protestant America understandable. In any case, being treated socially in a cold way is a far different thing from being locked out of politics in an institutional way and the US was the first country in the West (maybe the world?) to ban religious tests for office. As the number of Jews and Catholics increased, their political representation increased as it should have. Once again, the US was much better about accommodating the new comers than other countries usually are.

      Japanese interred

      That sucked for those detained and for those whose property was taken from them as a result, but in the context of all the atrocities committed in war, it was not the huge horror that some people like to make it out to be.

      , black activists; such as the Black Panthers; assassinated,

      The Black Panthers were a violent street gang who used Marxist "activism" as a cover for their true nature. Read David Horowitz's Radical Son for some perspective. The BPs got into confrontations with law enforcement. Sometimes gunfire was involved and BP members died, but that wasn't "assassination". That was thugs getting shot by cops. The Professional Left frequently imbues ordinary criminal activity with some grand purpose. Don't be fooled.

      people of color are *still* trying to be barred from voting

      I presume you meant to write 'there are still attempts to prevent people of color from vot

    39. Re:German illegal? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      That's nothing. My wife's religion was flat out banned until 1978.

      "Whereas traditional American Indian ceremonies have been intruded upon, interfered with, and in a few instances banned;"

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Indian_Religious_Freedom_Act

    40. Re: German illegal? by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      So it's like those situations where an MP, after a G&T too many, suggests that maybe we should offer to pay the air fair of any immigrant who wishes to go home, and theodp posts an article saying "OMG UK gubmint planning to deport all darkies ahunderedandeleventyone!!!!"

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    41. Re:German illegal? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      our system of government has succeeded in imprisoning anyone for being German

      Never happened. Incidentally, war sweeps aside freedoms. That's one of the reasons why people say "war is the health of the state". The fact that the political class, regardless of party, has endorsed a never ending war on terror should make every American citizen nervous.

      As to the Peter King hearings ... meh, Peter King favors anything that favors Israel. If that means smearing all Muslims, that's okay by him. I don't see anything at all wrong with some examination of radicalization in Islam anyway. Nothing in the hearings indicated that Islam itself was a threat so no general action, such as banning all Islamic immigration, was implemented. If the country was ever attacked by a religious sect that was an inherent threat, it would be entirely appropriate for immigration by members of the sect to be barred. If you want to live in the US, then you have to abide by certain rules one of which is "don't go around killing other people just because they belong to a different group than yours". If you can't live by such rules, then you shouldn't be let in.

    42. Re:German illegal? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nixon's southern strategy is what helped flip a lot of this

      I love the contortions that Democrats go through to excuse the fact that the DP has always been the home of racism in America. The DP fought for slavery, undermined the Union war effort, invented segregation, invented Jim Crow, founded and staffed the KKK, enslaved blacks with welfare and promotes racialism, racial preferences and racial conflict whenever it can.

    43. Re:German illegal? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What are you trying to say? That you have no basis to complain about the state of affairs as long as people are one tiny step below owning slaves?

      Newsflash, people exaggerate things when they try to make a point about how bad something is.

    44. Re:German illegal? by frank_adrian314159 · · Score: 2

      Texas has it's own recognized dialect of German...

      Guten Tag, y'all...

      --
      That is all.
    45. Re:German illegal? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      1%er's and the one day my ship will come in brigade still do!

    46. Re:German illegal? by Livius · · Score: 0

      Are we perfect? No.

      No country is perfect, but many do better at living up to their ideals, and none are so obnoxious in telling the world how their country is different because of its ideals.

    47. Re:German illegal? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ya better believe it buddy or its Gitmo for you! USA #1

    48. Re:German illegal? by Imbrondir · · Score: 2

      Did we take territory from Mexico during a war? Of course, during the war we actually took ALL of Mexico, seems to me we gave a lot of it back and I'd bet that the people who live there now wish we had kept it all. Also don't forget that this war was to protect the disputed areas called Texas which had already declared it's independence and then joined the Union in 1845. Territory that had gone though multiple country's hands, including France, Spain before Mexico ended up with it. But this war was initiated by Mexico's attacks, and when the USA totally defeated Mexico, we gave most of it back to them.

      Not to take away from your speech, but I believe you are severely downplaying the Mexican conquest. Mexico lost almost half their territory, while USA increased almost 50% in size. I wouldnt be so quick to mark Mexico as the first agressor in the war either. Pre independence, Texas was first pretty much conquered by US settlers, in a somewhat similar fashion to how the Muslim arabs conquered Lebanon from the Christian arabs.

      Not that this changes how the USA is good or bad today

    49. Re:German illegal? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      With the lifting of capital controls in 1974, the USA surrendered its sovereignty involving border control. Every time Congress tries to pass any meaningful means of border control, global interests warn of calling the debt.

      Inability to prove a conspiracy is IPSO FACTO proof of a conspiracy.

      The racists were right all along.

    50. Re:German illegal? by Half-pint+HAL · · Score: 1

      I remember in 2012 when there was a Congressional hearing to decide if Muslims should be illegal.

      Citation please.

      It's in the deleted scenes on the special edition Bluray.

      --
      Got them moderator blues I blieve I walk out the do', With these mod-points I been gettin', I 'most never post no mo'
    51. Re:German illegal? by bobbied · · Score: 3, Insightful

      There are two sides to every conflict. However, in this case it is clear that Mexico "fired the first shot" as it where, by engaging their military outside their country and attacking a US patrol in Texas, killing 16. War was declared on both sides and the conflict lasted about 18 months with the total capture of ALL of Mexico by the USA.

      I'm sure the Mexican view is quite different, given that they still had not recognized the independence of Texas, but their surrender and subsequent sale of additional land to the USA makes the border between our two countries pretty much a settled issue at this point. Those who complain about it now are misguided and unfairly maligning the USA's actions.

      --
      "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
    52. Re: German illegal? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So Fred Hampton has a shootout with the cops while he was asleep and unarmed? GTFO of here with that bullshit, the Panthers were militant and radical but many were still assassinated.

    53. Re:German illegal? by EuclideanSilence · · Score: 1

      It was made illegal in 23 states. And this was during a time when the 14th amendment wasn't being taken literally by the supreme court. So except for the 14th amendment, it wasn't a violation of the US Constitution.

      The Sedition Act of 1918 is a better example, where Freedom of Speech was infringed: "any disloyal, profane, scurrilous, or abusive language about the form of government of the United States...or the flag of the United States, or the uniform of the Army or Navy".

    54. Re:German illegal? by Hadlock · · Score: 1

      You can buy that on a sign in multiple gift shops in Fredericksburg, Texas, and probably at Friedhelm's on the north end of main street. My cousins call their grandparents Oma and Opa. Texas was predominantly German and Spanish speaking up until the first world war. There were more German speaking Texans than Irish Speaking or Italian speaking New Yorkers. Czech bakeries are A Thing in Texas. Stop off at the Czech-Stop if you're ever headed between Dallas and Austin or San Antonio.

      --
      moox. for a new generation.
    55. Re:German illegal? by GrahamCox · · Score: 1

      Are we perfect? No. But we are advancing closer to the ideal expressed in our founding document.

      "Humanity can generally be relied on to do the right thing, once all other avenues have been exhausted". - Churchill.

    56. Re:German illegal? by steelfood · · Score: 1

      come from people with short memories.

      No, just poor education.

      Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.

      - George Santanyana

      We don't live in an ideal. But it's important we set it up as our goal and try to get as close to it as possible. And when we collectively take a step back, which is inevitable, it's important to note this and do what we can to reverse it. Apathy and scaremongering are both unproductive.

      --
      "If a nation expects to be ignorant and free in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be."
    57. Re:German illegal? by readin · · Score: 1

      FDR all over again. Concentration camps, anyone?

      And NOBODY seemed to have a problem with this!!!

      So NOBODY had a problem with it and it sailed through Congress, became a law, and American Moslems started being rounded up and herded into camps or deported? I guess I haven't been paying enough attention to the news because I missed all that. Funny I haven't noticed anyone being missing from my office.

      --
      I often don't like the choices people make, but I like the fact that people make choices. That's why I'm a conservative.
    58. Re:German illegal? by readin · · Score: 1

      Nixon's southern strategy is what helped flip a lot of this

      I love the contortions that Democrats go through to excuse the fact that the DP has always been the home of racism in America. The DP fought for slavery, undermined the Union war effort, invented segregation, invented Jim Crow, founded and staffed the KKK, enslaved blacks with welfare and promotes racialism, racial preferences and racial conflict whenever it can.

      Yep

      --
      I often don't like the choices people make, but I like the fact that people make choices. That's why I'm a conservative.
    59. Re:German illegal? by readin · · Score: 1

      It was made illegal in 23 states. And this was during a time when the 14th amendment wasn't being taken literally by the supreme court. So except for the 14th amendment, it wasn't a violation of the US Constitution.

      The Sedition Act of 1918 is a better example, where Freedom of Speech was infringed: "any disloyal, profane, scurrilous, or abusive language about the form of government of the United States...or the flag of the United States, or the uniform of the Army or Navy".

      We had a progressive in the White House (Wilson). Progressives tend to view the Constitution as an impediment to their agenda.

      --
      I often don't like the choices people make, but I like the fact that people make choices. That's why I'm a conservative.
    60. Re:German illegal? by silfen · · Score: 1, Troll

      Just remember that it was progressives who brought us segregation, as well as anti-miscegenation laws, forced sterilization, and numerous other racist policies, the same kind of progressives as are so dominant in the Democratic party now.

    61. Re:German illegal? by cjsm · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Also don't forget that this war was to protect the disputed areas called Texas which had already declared it's independence and then joined the Union in 1845.

      American settlers in Texas, with U.S. support, declared independence from Mexico to protect slavery, which was illegal in Mexico. Nothing noble about that.

      Did we take territory from Mexico during a war? Of course, during the war we actually took ALL of Mexico, seems to me we gave a lot of it back

      We let them keep half their country? Aren't we special! I guess if Russia took all of the Ukraine and gave half of it back, they'd be wonderful too.

      I'd bet that the people who live there now wish we had kept it all

      Mexico would be much wealthier country if we hadn't taken half of their territory. Not to mention the constant meddling of the United States in Mexican affairs. As Mexican President Porfirio Diaz said: "Poor Mexico, so far from God and so close to the United States!"

      --
      This ad space for rent.
    62. Re: German illegal? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The actual Sir Winston quote referred to Americans, not humanity.

    63. Re:German illegal? by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      We talk about this once great nation; I wonder if it was ever great.

      If you consider 'great' to be 'perfect,' then no.

      I like to refer to the Goethe quote, "a man's imperfections are those of his times......his genius is his own." Who knows what barbaric things we do now that people will look back in horror. Maybe eat meat? I'm not going to stop, though, due to the approbation of future generations.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    64. Re:German illegal? by billstewart · · Score: 2

      Any argument that only has two sides is a boring and overly limited view of reality. Texas was part of Mexico at the time, and there were a bunch of illegal immigrant gringos who came in and wanted to be able to own slaves.

      But separately from that, during the various wars in Europe in the early-mid 1800s, there were a lot of German immigrants who moved to Texas and the rest of Northern Mexico. The Texas German dialect is dying out, but you'll still see a lot of German culture in places like New Braunfels, some of the cooking in San Antonio, and a lot of mariachi music is strongly German oompah-band stuff.

      --

      Bill Stewart
      New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
    65. Re:German illegal? by dunkelfalke · · Score: 1

      I wonder why. Myself I am from Germany, been often enough in Czech Republic. Czech food is usually boring - basically the same as in Southern Germany - and the bakeries aren't really anything special. You'll probably find more interesting bread in a small German town than anywhere in Prague.

      --
      "It's such a fine line between stupid and clever" -- David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
    66. Re:German illegal? by bobbied · · Score: 1

      Mexico would be much wealthier country if we hadn't taken half of their territory. Not to mention the constant meddling of the United States in Mexican affairs. As Mexican President Porfirio Diaz said: "Poor Mexico, so far from God and so close to the United States!"

      The implication here is that the USA improperly took this territory from Mexico, which is NOT true. This is also a rewriting of history that makes the USA into a bad actor by distorting the actual happenings.

      The problem for your view is that the USA had taken ALL of Mexico and *could* have easily just absorbed it. Mexico had been basically bordering on anarchy in the decade before the war and really had no effective government at the time. Had the USA been interested in just taking land, they would have owned Mexico, lock stock and barrel. We didn't. In fact, we spent money to assist them in getting their government going again after the war and helped them rebuild.

      Then, at a later date.... Mexico agreed to SELL the US additional land and resolve the pending border dispute.

      I'm sorry that some in Mexico feel cheated, but I don't believe they have a valid case to lay such claims at this late date.

      --
      "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
    67. Re:German illegal? by bobbied · · Score: 1

      Your mileage may vary, but the USA's history is pretty full of good behavior.... We've taken more territory than any other country in history, only to return it when the war was over, we've provided food and protection in many situations where others couldn't or wouldn't. We provide the majority of funding for the UN. Given what we COULD have done with our resources and military, we are usually the good guys.

      So I ask you, are you really sure you'd rather do without the USA in the world? Or could it be that your *real* problem is that you are jealous of it's accomplishments? After all, it's becoming fashionable to hate the rich these days... To say they got rich in immoral ways, even if they earned it fairly... Just being well off is enough to condemn them.

      --
      "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
    68. Re:German illegal? by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      No different from US limitations on immigration now, except that that particular group wound up in a very bad situation. At that time, we knew that Germany was violently anti-Semitic. We didn't know that (a) they would start murdering Jews on an industrial scale, or (b) that they were going to conquer most of Europe, and murder Jews there on an industrial scale.

      In 1939, the US was still in the Great Depression, and the idea of a thousand poor immigrants was not tempting.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    69. Re:German illegal? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The Mexican military attacked Fort Texas, which was built in Mexican territory, not in Texan territory, (you may argue that), so they fired the first shot against an invading army. Texas border with Mexico was not the Grande (or Bravo) river as it is today, but the Nueces River, located northward.
      Also, I believe there was a strong pressure from the North states to avoid taking too much from Mexico, since those territories would be part of the South. I recall having read that Lincoln (obviously he was not President in that time) was opposed to the war with Mexico for similar reasons. So, the return of part of the taken land was not because of good will.
      At the end, the borders are settled, but if you want to be fair, you must try to learn what really happened.

    70. Re:German illegal? by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      Did we illegally arrest and hold Japanese Americans during WWII? Yes, but we have recognized that it was wrong and done what we can to restore what was lost.

      What do you mean, "illegally"? Korematsu v. United States has not been overturned, so it's still a binding precedent that the president of the United States can unilaterally confine thousands of people to concentration camps with a stroke of his pen.

      Oh, and apologies and reparations? Those are not legally binding, sorry.

    71. Re:German illegal? by bobbied · · Score: 1

      Texas claimed all the way to the Rio Grande was theirs. Santa Ana singed a treaty to that effect after he was captured. Mexican forces where to with draw past the Rio Grande. Mexico objected, but Santa Ana did sign the Treaties of Velasco to make peace with Texas. Mexico was defeated by the Texans and lost the territory in the rebellion.

      The annex of the Republic of Texas included the territory all the way to the Rio Grande. The USA adopted this view, Mexico objected. So Mexico then, full knowing it could start a war, fired on US troops in the territory in question. Which is what I said. They fired the first shots. Then they succeeded in loosing their third war in about a decade.

      Yea, the Mexican view is different.. But the subsequent sale of additional lands to the US pretty much settles the question of where the border is. Seems to me the sale pretty much shows the Mexicans admitting that they had no further claim to the land to the north.

      --
      "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
    72. Re:German illegal? by bobbied · · Score: 1

      Given the ownership of the land in question was and is arguable, I think you overstate your case. The Mexicans fired on US troops who where occupying land that Mexico understood the US had annexed when they admitted the Republic of Texas into the union. They knew full well that a war could be the result of this action, but they did it anyway. They then lost the SECOND attempt to retain this land by force, this time to the USA...

      BUT, the real clincher is the sale of additional lands to the USA. Had Mexico felt it had a claim to the lands taken previously, why on earth did they sell *more* land to the USA? I think that clearly establishes that Mexico had dropped all claims to the lands to the north of the purchased land and wanted to establish a well defined border with the USA which stands to this day.

      --
      "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
    73. Re:German illegal? by bobbied · · Score: 1

      It's not overturned? Perhaps, but I dare say it would not be possible to do this today. You don't put US citizens in confinement without good reason, and certainly not in large numbers because of their race. I think there has been a bit of change in the law in that regard...

      --
      "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
    74. Re:German illegal? by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 1

      I dare say it would not be possible to do this today.

      At least two Supreme Court justices of our era (Rehnquist and Scalia) disagree with you on that.

      "An entirely separate and important philosophical question is whether occasional presidential excesses and judicial restraint in wartime are desirable or undesirable. In one sense, this question is very largely academic. There is no reason to think that future wartime presidents will act differently from Lincoln, Wilson, or Roosevelt, or that future Justices of the Supreme Court will decide questions differently than their predecessors."

      "The Supreme Court's Korematsu decision upholding the internment of Japanese Americans was wrong, but it could happen again in war time."

      And if you'd think that people today wouldn't stand for it, you're wrong, too. Some people not only would do that all over again, they write books to justify it and claim that the same argument also applies in the "War on Terror". These are usually the same kind of people who are fond of the phrase "constitution is not a suicide pact" (by which they mean that it can be ignored at will if they feel sufficiently threatened).

      Now, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that things haven't improved in US in that department since WW2. They did, and public opinion would not be so easily swayed today (in WW2, internment was virtually uncontroversial). But it's far from a settled thing, as well, both legally and in terms of public support, and we have to remain on guard against repeat attempts.

    75. Re:German illegal? by Eunuchswear · · Score: 1

      You are a lying toad.

      --
      Watch this Heartland Institute video
    76. Re:German illegal? by silfen · · Score: 2

      No, you're simply historically illiterate. (Progressives obviously have abandoned eugenics itself, but merely replaced it with other racially discriminatory policies.)

      At its peak of popularity, eugenics was supported by a wide variety of prominent people, including Winston Churchill,[114] Margaret Sanger,[115][116] Marie Stopes, H. G. Wells, [117] Norman Haire, Havelock Ellis, Theodore Roosevelt, Herbert Hoover, George Bernard Shaw, John Maynard Keynes, John Harvey Kellogg, Robert Andrews Millikan,[118] Linus Pauling[119] and Sidney Webb.[120][121][122]

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

      In 1913, President Woodrow Wilson ordered the segregation of the federal Civil Service.[16] White and black people would sometimes be required to eat separately, go to separate schools, use separate public toilets, park benches, train, buses, and water fountains, etc.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

      Sanger's eugenic policies included an exclusionary immigration policy, free access to birth control methods and full family planning autonomy for the able-minded, and compulsory segregation or sterilization for the profoundly retarded.[84][85]

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

      Keynes was a proponent of eugenics. He served as Director of the British Eugenics Society from 1937 to 1944. As late as 1946, shortly before his death, Keynes declared eugenics to be "the most important, significant and, I would add, genuine branch of sociology which exists."[154]

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

      I could go on. But why don't you read about it from a black Stanford economist, Thomas Sowell, in his book "Intellectuals and Race".

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

    77. Re:German illegal? by Imbrondir · · Score: 1

      Given the ownership of the land in question was and is arguable, I think you overstate your case. The Mexicans fired on US troops who where occupying land that Mexico understood the US had annexed when they admitted the Republic of Texas into the union. They knew full well that a war could be the result of this action, but they did it anyway. They then lost the SECOND attempt to retain this land by force, this time to the USA...

      The Mexicans shot first. But its not as if the annexation of Texas supported by illegal american immigrants isnt an act of war either. Apparently said immigrants were not happy about Mexico abolishing slavery. Mexico didnt have the military might to win the war, but you cant blame them for being upset about it.

      BUT, the real clincher is the sale of additional lands to the USA. Had Mexico felt it had a claim to the lands taken previously, why on earth did they sell *more* land to the USA? I think that clearly establishes that Mexico had dropped all claims to the lands to the north of the purchased land and wanted to establish a well defined border with the USA which stands to this day.

      They knew they had lost, with no opportunity in sight to win their land back.

  3. Same old American Xenophobia by i+kan+reed · · Score: 0

    It's amazingly symbolic of the progress we've made that there are just large numbers of people complaining about Islam and world religions being covered in social studies segments rather than being against the law, like German was.

    America: We're not as xenophobic as we used to be!
    America: From many come one, yeah, we're even tolerating those people now.
    America: Our courts force us to obey the first amendment.

    1. Re:Same old American Xenophobia by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Isn't it odd that no matter how much progress America makes, the Left is always ready with a cutting criticism? Even considering that up until recently, new immigrants were expected to assimilate into the existing society, instead of having exceptions made for them?

      Go ahead and try that bullshit anywhere else in the world. How welcoming is Egypt to new people? Nigeria? China? Thailand? Oh, but America somehow fails to live up to an imaginary ideal that NOBODY IN THE WORLD does, so that's wrong and we should hate Americans for that.

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
    2. Re:Same old American Xenophobia by fustakrakich · · Score: 1

      America: Our courts force us to obey the first amendment.

      Oof! How I wish!

      --
      “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
    3. Re:Same old American Xenophobia by r1348 · · Score: 1

      Are you seriously using Egypt, Nigeria, China and Thailand as a human rights comparison?

    4. Re:Same old American Xenophobia by jellomizer · · Score: 1

      A small but vocal group of whiners doesn't represent our full culture.
      They will always be Xenophibic people, because we will always have problems and will need some one to blame. Europe, Asia, Africa, South America, and Australia have this problem too.

      If you are in a majority, having a growing minority group can feel threatening to any person. If the minority is willing to change to be part of us, then we take it as a complement.

      The First Amendment law is counter to what most governments wan't as it makes their job more difficult. Being that the courts make sure it is in place and active is positive. Because it is a hindrance towards easy government it is too easy to sliding scale away from it.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    5. Re:Same old American Xenophobia by king+neckbeard · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I would say that melting pot works better than multiculturalism, and it also happens at the genetic level. Most Americans are mutts, which isn't as common elsewhere AFAIK.

      --
      This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
    6. Re:Same old American Xenophobia by NatasRevol · · Score: 1

      Imaginary ideal?

      It's in the fucking constitution.

      It's just ignored a lot.

      --
      There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
    7. Re:Same old American Xenophobia by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Even considering that up until recently, new immigrants were expected to assimilate into the existing society, instead of having exceptions made for them?

      You're confusing culture and law.

      You're expected to change your ways to adapt to American culture, but it's optional. You can be a recluse if you really want to. You know the stereotype immigrant who can't speak English and sticks to their own little enclaves.

      The exceptions minorities get however, is related to law. Laws are not optional. Follow them, or you get arrested/jailed/shot by government.

      If your law is so complicated you need to make exceptions, the fault is not with the minorities asking for and getting those exceptions, but the law that was written so poorly that it can't treat everyone equally before the law, and needs exceptions to patch it up to a sorta kinda working level.

    8. Re:Same old American Xenophobia by The+Ickle+Jones · · Score: 1

      Oh, but America somehow fails to live up to an imaginary ideal that NOBODY IN THE WORLD does

      Well, American is supposed to be the best (according to lots of people here), so I expect more.

    9. Re:Same old American Xenophobia by lgw · · Score: 1

      All ideals are imaginary. It's great to strive for ideals, but you can't say things are getting worse because we're not meeting some ideal we have met. The realistic goal is incremental progress towards an ideal.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    10. Re:Same old American Xenophobia by i+kan+reed · · Score: 1

      Nothing represents our entire culture. A small(but not that small) but vocal group of whiners does reflect aspects of our culture.

    11. Re:Same old American Xenophobia by lgw · · Score: 1

      Gah! "Ideal we have never met".

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    12. Re:Same old American Xenophobia by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Isn't it odd that no matter how much progress America makes, the Left is always ready with a cutting criticism? Even considering that up until recently, new immigrants were expected to assimilate into the existing society, instead of having exceptions made for them?

      Go ahead and try that bullshit anywhere else in the world. How welcoming is Egypt to new people? Nigeria? China? Thailand? Oh, but America somehow fails to live up to an imaginary ideal that NOBODY IN THE WORLD does, so that's wrong and we should hate Americans for that.

      The reason those other places are such shitholes is that they do not even try to live up to that imaginary ideal. Striving to be better is something to be proud of. Striving to not be as bad as Nigeria is setting the bar a bit low.

    13. Re: Same old American Xenophobia by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not sure where to start on this one... pretty sure every Northeastern city has an Italian neighborhood, probably an Irish neighborhood, maybe a Polish one or a Russian, etc. Sure, now we look at them with a certain kind of nostalgia, but unless you're grandparents (maybe great-grandparents these days) were part of one of those neighborhoods, I'd bet they didn't always feel that way.

      Now as far as the US being unique in accepting all people... I recently moved to Europe. Pretty much literally; I arrived, got some temporary living arrangements squared away, then let the local government know that I was interested in staying... all in English. Within a few months, I had my residency and work permits (needed even though I was keeping my US based employment) & still not speaking more of the local language then just the basic hellos and goodbyes. I could easily live my whole life here & just remain "the foreign guy" the whole time & the locals would be perfectly OK with that. I couldn't imagine someone trying to do this same thing in reverse...

    14. Re:Same old American Xenophobia by Prien715 · · Score: 1

      Isn't it odd that no matter how much progress America makes, the Left is always ready with a cutting criticism? How welcoming is Egypt to new people? Nigeria? China? Thailand?

      Yeah, it's stunning that some of us aim higher than Egypt, China, or Thailand as the aim for our moral compass. It's like aiming for bug-free code: we may never get there, but even incremental progress is still progress.

      --
      -- Political fascism requires a Fuhrer.
    15. Re:Same old American Xenophobia by Livius · · Score: 1

      Welcoming people means assimilating them, not leaving them isolated from the mainstream ethnic group. "Exceptions" are reverse racism, when they're not actual positive racism.

    16. Re:Same old American Xenophobia by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Imaginary ideal?

      It's in the fucking constitution.

      There is nothing in the US Constitution that requires uncontrolled immigration be tolerated. There is nothing that requires accommodation of foreign languages in government or schools. There is, technically, nothing in the Constitution that prevents a State law banning the use of certain languages. Banning the use of German during the war was a little crazy, but lots of crazy things happen when a population gets whipped into a war frenzy.

      It should not be forgotten that Woodrow Wilson was President during WWI. Wilson was a racist tyrant of the first order. All the dictators of the 20th century admired Wilson.

    17. Re: Same old American Xenophobia by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I could easily live my whole life here & just remain "the foreign guy" the whole time & the locals would be perfectly OK with that. I couldn't imagine someone trying to do this same thing in reverse...

      The difference is due to English being the lingua franca of the modern industrialized world. I can easily understand the annoyance encountered by someone who came to a nation of 320 million English speaking people expecting documents and other communication to be conducted in a language used by only a few million people who live on the other side of the world.

      Usually, when people speak about the US being unique in accepting all people, what they are referring to is that a person can emigrate to the US, become a citizen and be accepted as an American. In most countries, immigrants are never fully accepted. So your experience with being "the foreign guy" and remaining "the foreign guy" if you lived there your whole life is consistent with that viewpoint.

    18. Re:Same old American Xenophobia by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Isn't it odd that no matter how much progress America makes, the Left is always ready with a cutting criticism? Even considering that up until recently, new immigrants were expected to assimilate into the existing society, instead of having exceptions made for them?

      Go ahead and try that bullshit anywhere else in the world. How welcoming is Egypt to new people? Nigeria? China? Thailand? Oh, but America somehow fails to live up to an imaginary ideal that NOBODY IN THE WORLD does, so that's wrong and we should hate Americans for that.

      American isn't perfect but its society is one of the best at supressing the violent/ruthless side of humanity--in other countries that ugly side of humanity is dominant.

    19. Re:Same old American Xenophobia by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Believe me, people in Egypt, Nigeria, China, and Thiland have *plenty* of cutting criticism for their autocracies. It just gets suppressed before it makes it to CNN. No one likes living non-free once they know how democracy works.

      The challenge is to increase freedom in the USA, and I trust the Left more than the Right to do that.

    20. Re:Same old American Xenophobia by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > Are you seriously using Egypt, Nigeria, China and Thailand as a human rights comparison?

      It's so unfair being compared to the other members of the death penalty club.

      Do they execute the mentally retarded there too?

    21. Re:Same old American Xenophobia by readin · · Score: 2

      True, he should have used other countries like Japan, Norway, Mexico, Australia, etc. that also are less welcoming to border jumpers/trespassers.

      --
      I often don't like the choices people make, but I like the fact that people make choices. That's why I'm a conservative.
    22. Re:Same old American Xenophobia by readin · · Score: 1

      Imaginary ideal?

      It's in the fucking constitution.

      It's just ignored a lot.

      Where in the American Constitution does it say we have to accept anyone and everyone, and that we shouldn't expect those we do accept to adapt to our culture and political system?

      --
      I often don't like the choices people make, but I like the fact that people make choices. That's why I'm a conservative.
    23. Re:Same old American Xenophobia by readin · · Score: 1

      Imaginary ideal?

      It's in the fucking constitution.

      There is nothing in the US Constitution that requires uncontrolled immigration be tolerated. There is nothing that requires accommodation of foreign languages in government or schools. There is, technically, nothing in the Constitution that prevents a State law banning the use of certain languages. Banning the use of German during the war was a little crazy, but lots of crazy things happen when a population gets whipped into a war frenzy.

      It should not be forgotten that Woodrow Wilson was President during WWI. Wilson was a racist tyrant of the first order. All the dictators of the 20th century admired Wilson.

      Yep

      --
      I often don't like the choices people make, but I like the fact that people make choices. That's why I'm a conservative.
    24. Re: Same old American Xenophobia by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not everyone here speaks English, and not everyone who can understand a little English is comfortable speaking it. People really do need to go out of their way to accommodate me from time to time.

      One oddity of all this is that there is an official language here (not English) as opposed to the US, where there is no official language.

      I think you are right that becoming fully integrated into the local community would be a little different here. It's not because of permanent residency or citizenship issues though, it's more because they are a smaller, tighter knit community then in the US. I don't think anyone is recognized as a "local" unless they were born close by (like in the town... Or maybe one or two villages over, but certainly not on the other side of the country... in some cases those people are thought of as being just as foreign as me). Moving around the US is fairly common, but few people move very far from home here by choice.

  4. I am SHOCKED! by gurps_npc · · Score: 1

    Shocked, I say. To find out that the loser of a major World War (twice) lost their per-eminent place in scientific literature.

    --
    excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
    1. Re:I am SHOCKED! by i+kan+reed · · Score: 1

      And yet Germany, Italy, and Japan are all major economies. Germany and Japan are still science centers.

    2. Re:I am SHOCKED! by Spy+Handler · · Score: 1

      The Latins lost WW-1 and WW0 to the Huns and the Vandals, yet that didn't stop Latin from being the pre-eminent scientific language until the 1800s.

    3. Re:I am SHOCKED! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Germany and Japan are still science centers.

      Well sure, they had all those Jews and Chinese to experiment on.

    4. Re:I am SHOCKED! by butalearner · · Score: 2, Funny

      But Latin sounds awesome, as compared to the angry, smashed together words that Germans use. Seriously, their language is terrible to look at and to listen to, so I'm feeling a touch of schadenfreude over the whole thing.

    5. Re:I am SHOCKED! by Oligonicella · · Score: 2

      I wonder who helped them rebuild?

    6. Re:I am SHOCKED! by fustakrakich · · Score: 1

      And yet Germany, Italy, and Japan are all major economies.

      And yet, they are still occupied countries.

      --
      “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
    7. Re:I am SHOCKED! by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      By the time the Vandals got to Rome, the "Roman Empire" was a shadow of it's former self. It wasn't even a single entity anymore. I think Latin hung around so long because the only educated people in the West were Catholic clergy, who happened to all use Latin until the 1960s.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    8. Re:I am SHOCKED! by Vlad_the_Inhaler · · Score: 1

      I don't know about Japan (but I imagine you are wrong), but Germany is not an "occupied country" any more. One of the side-effects of reunification was a peace treaty formally ending that status. With the USSR giving up control of "their part" the western allies had no reason not to do the same. Margaret Thatcher was less than enthusiastic about this but could do little once George Bush the Elder (I think it was him and not Clinton) had made the decision. Thatcher was dumped around then anyway and John Major was a lot less bigoted.

      Going back to the actual story here: At the time the Nazis took power, a large proportion of German scientists were jewish. Once their initial fears proved to be overly optimistic, those who could headed for the exits and were mostly not replaced. At that point German as the "Language of Science" was pretty much dead, losing WW2 just confirmed this.

      --
      Mielipiteet omiani - Opinions personal, facts suspect.
    9. Re: I am SHOCKED! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Heh - right you are. I am German but have no illusions about my native tongue. Harsh to listen to, and a nightmare to learn and master when you don't grow up with it.

      Unbeatable when it comes to express complicated subject matters precisely and concisely, though. Significantly fewer ambiguities in its grammatical constructs and words for everything. And if you don't have a word for it you can make one up on the spot by concatenating existing ones. And whole paragraphs are singles sentences!

    10. Re:I am SHOCKED! by fustakrakich · · Score: 1

      The bases are still there, ready for action.

      --
      “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
    11. Re: I am SHOCKED! by brainnolo · · Score: 3, Informative

      I am a native Italian speaker, but speak Russian, German and English daily. German is by no means the best language when it comes to being both precise and concise. The cup for that goes to Russian hands down. Both Germans and Russians express themselves very clearly and unambiguously (well, when they need to) but Russian sentences are shorter on average. Italian, on the other hand, is either ambiguous (relies on context a lot) or very verbose if you cannot allow yourself to be misunderstood.

      Regarding how it sounds, German is terrible but at least is generally easier to understand than English for a foreigner (some Americans seem to have a damn frog in their throat). Unless you made the mistake to speak to an old Bayern, then you might as well pretend to be deaf. Italian is generally pleasant (even the dialects) and Russian can be very pleasant, if spoken by a well educated person, or extremely rude and unpleasant if spoken by a gopnik.

    12. Re:I am SHOCKED! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You seem not to understand what "occupied country" means.

    13. Re:I am SHOCKED! by fustakrakich · · Score: 1

      Yeah, I do... It's not always a shoot-em-up...

      --
      “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
    14. Re:I am SHOCKED! by Vintermann · · Score: 1

      You don't really need to rebuild much to do the kind of stuff the Germans were best at. As German was at its high point as the language of science from 1880 to the outbreak of the first world war, mathematicians like Georg Cantor, David Hilbert, Gottlob Frege, Kurt Gödel, Ernst Zermelo, Dedekind, Felix Klein and Richard Dedekind were active. Then there were the physicist like Albert Einstein, Max Planck, Werner Heisenberg, Erwin Schrödinger and Arnold Sommerfeld. You can kind of understand why German was used for math and physics.

      --
      xkcd is not in the sudoers file. This incident will be reported.
    15. Re:I am SHOCKED! by Whiteox · · Score: 1

      Spot on! Latin was used for diplomatic and administrative purposes across Europe, Central Europe and Eastern Europe during the times of the Holy Roman Empire. Why? Because of the huge problem of communication with peoples within the empire. At least 19 different languages had to have some sort of commonality, and the RC church was the ideal way of this kind of transmission.
      Don't forget that the Byzantine Empire (Eastern Rite) lasted to 1250 and used Greek and Latin. The Holy Roman Empire (in some form) lasted till 1918, with the last Emperor, Otto Hapsburg dying a few years ago.
      So even though Austrian German was the operative language for hundreds of years, Latin was used as the written form and spoken still in diplomatic circles when German was not shared. The old Austro-Hungarian Empire officially stopped using Latin in 1867, although in practice it was used for another 50 years as German became the lingua franca.
      However I should point out that the watershed v German and English had a profound effect of Sciences and History. Even today, the ex-Axis countries are repairing the gap. Their Universities were not recognized in the West, and the Western academia have consequently poor knowledge of Central and Eastern European sciences as it wasn't inclusive in the Western mindset.

      --
      Don't be apathetic. Procrastinate!
    16. Re:I am SHOCKED! by gweihir · · Score: 1

      They still have that place. Germans these days just publish in English.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    17. Re:I am SHOCKED! by readin · · Score: 1

      Would it have mattered? Certain cultures seem to rise above whereever and whenever they get the chance. Japan was held back by their government's ban on foreign contacts until the 1860s, and then they modernized so quickly that by 1905 they were able to defeat a modern Western Navy and by the 1930s they were a colonial power. Then after WWII they rebounded again.
      Germany was wealthy before the war and rebounded well afterward.
      China was wealthy until they decided to limit foreign contacts. Communism held them back for a while too. Then when they let capitalism have a shot they became wealthy quite suddenly. Chinese in Singapore, Malaysia, and Indonesia have long been wealthier than their neighbors. Hong Kong did very well under the British.
      Taiwan, with cultural influences from both China and Japan, has done very well.
      Northern European countries are wealthier than southern European countries. Is it the wealther? Natural resources?

      America helped them rebuild quickly to provide a bulwark against Communism, but even without that help (assuming it wasn't needed to prevent a Communist takeover that would have set them back centuries) the Germans and Japanese would likely have rebuilt and become wealthy again fairly rapidly.

      --
      I often don't like the choices people make, but I like the fact that people make choices. That's why I'm a conservative.
    18. Re:I am SHOCKED! by dewatf · · Score: 1

      Yes the abandonment of Latin as part of the progressivism was a mistake.

      German may have lost out to English as a result of WWI, but English was second and it was inevitable that it would take over. The US, UK, and all its colonies and Commonwealth (Australia, India, NZ, South Africa) made up a very large language block and became the wealthiest and most industrialised nations of the first half of 20th Century, as another wave of globalisation was taking off. They were stable free nations were scholars, business people and those seeking opportunity migrated to in times of trouble. English became the lingua franca of not only science but trade, the humanities, pop culture and the internet. It's also good for crosswords.

    19. Re:I am SHOCKED! by grouchomarxist · · Score: 1

      The grandparent is wrong about all three. They are probably facetiously referring to the American military bases located in these countries.

    20. Re:I am SHOCKED! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, German spoken by native english speakers can definitely sound horrible. By the way, most dialects here sound much more pleasent than Hochdeutsch.

    21. Re:I am SHOCKED! by grouchomarxist · · Score: 1

      Definitely not the standard definition of "occupied".

    22. Re:I am SHOCKED! by fustakrakich · · Score: 1

      Well yes, it's a matter of pride. To admit you are occupied is to admit weakness. So, we create euphemisms, like "allies" and "coalition of the willing".

      --
      “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
    23. Re: I am SHOCKED! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      German is not harsh to listen to; stop trying to pander by playing up to stereotypes. Any language sounds harsh if your only exposure to it is via comedians, etc, shouting it. Italian, English, or any other language would sound harsh, too, in that case.

      Watch German tv shows, news, or films. Listen to music (not Rammstein or anything else stereotypical), listen to Juli, Silbermond, Cassandra Steen, then tell me that "German sounds harsh".

      Enough with the lame, WW2-era misconceptions already.

    24. Re: I am SHOCKED! by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      If you look at any case where similar texts are written in different European languages, you will find that the English version is among the shorter, while the Russian version is among the longer. This has had publicity effects: since a one-page press release is much more informative in English than Russian, US audiences got the impression that the Russians were deliberately giving less information than people in the US would.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    25. Re: I am SHOCKED! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have one German word for you: "zart." ...tsssssart... ...meaning tender, gentle. Yeah, that's right!

    26. Re: I am SHOCKED! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I find your list of languages that you speak fluently impressive. Nonetheless, I doubt that by not being a native speaker of German you could have reached the same level of written German in particular as a native one. I would never make that claim for my English skills.

    27. Re:I am SHOCKED! by dave420 · · Score: 1

      No, it's a matter of knowing what words mean, and not simply making up alternate translations to win an argument... When a country is occupied, the occupying forces control the laws and institutions of the land. Clearly that is not the case in Germany, so you are clearly either completely ignorant of the concept of occupation, or are lying... Your choice.

    28. Re:I am SHOCKED! by fustakrakich · · Score: 1

      Clearly that is not the case in Germany...

      You don't know that. Propaganda is still as effective as it has always been. It's even working on you this very moment. Let's see what would happen if Germans voted in somebody the Americans don't like. It would be like Chile in 1973. So please, save it. Occupation can wear a velvet glove also.

      --
      “He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
  5. EnlishBeat as the Language of Science by Foofoobar · · Score: 1
    --
    This is my sig. There are many like it but this one is mine.
  6. Godwins law by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Well, the whole nazi take over thing and german scientists fleeing the country might've played a role

  7. WWII proably didn't help much either by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Think Holocaust.

    We know the famous ones that left before the worst of it began, can you imagine how many didn't?

  8. A very useful second language in my field by damn_registrars · · Score: 1

    While English is the official language at conferences I attend in my field, German is one of the next most spoken (likely after Mandarin Chinese and slightly ahead of, or even with, Russian). A lot of the top PIs in my field speak it as their first language as well, which makes it a very valuable negotiation tool.

    --
    Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
    1. Re:A very useful second language in my field by Vlad_the_Inhaler · · Score: 1

      Was ist ein "PI" wenn es zuhause ist? Private Investigator?

      --
      Mielipiteet omiani - Opinions personal, facts suspect.
    2. Re:A very useful second language in my field by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Was ist ein "PI" wenn es zuhause ist? Private Investigator?

      Principal Investigator would be my guess. This is usually the title given to the leader of a major scientific project, experiment or mission.

    3. Re:A very useful second language in my field by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Tut mir leid, aber ich verstehe den Witz nicht.
      Ist das eine Anspielung auf die Zahl Pi?
      Ist es für den Witz wichtig ob man die Buchstaben zusammen oder getrennt ausspricht?
      Warum ist da ein Fragezeichen hinter Private Investigator? Soll das nicht die Antwort sein?

    4. Re:A very useful second language in my field by Vlad_the_Inhaler · · Score: 1

      nice try.
      almost perfect.

      "das" Antwort.

      --
      Mielipiteet omiani - Opinions personal, facts suspect.
    5. Re:A very useful second language in my field by dave420 · · Score: 1

      I hope that was a joke, as "Antwort" is feminine, meaning die is correct...

  9. Germany had the last laugh... by tlambert · · Score: 1

    Germany had the last laugh... German has always been "one space after terminal punctuation in sentences", and since 2009 or so, that's been retcon'ed into English as well: "Ha! Take that English speakers! You may have won the world wars, but *WE* took the second space after your periods!".

    1. Re:Germany had the last laugh... by bluefoxlucid · · Score: 1

      People argue that two-spaces is an anachronism and we shouldn't do it anymore. They tell us that the computer algorithms adjust everything to have that extra space from one space after a period or colon. Yeah? And when you post on the Internet, it condenses two spaces to one, and it's in variable-width type, and the period is like two pixels wide, and the space doesn't automatically become wider.

      People are so fucking stupid they type arguments on a computer screen about how things they're looking right at are displayed, without noticing that what they're describing is exactly not what they're looking at.

    2. Re:Germany had the last laugh... by aaaaaaargh! · · Score: 2

      I always thought this rule was invented to make it easier for typesetters to distinguish the end of a sentence from abbreviations. Were the two spaces ever actually typeset?

    3. Re:Germany had the last laugh... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think you mean the French won, since everyone now uses French spacing (a single space).

    4. Re:Germany had the last laugh... by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      It's vestigial from the typewriter, which could only do whole-number spacing and could not do justified text. Typesetting did not have a fixed amount of space after a period, because the whole line was stretched out to justify the text. They did, however, leave more space after a period than they did between words. Computers can make the space any size that you wish, so physically entering two spaces is indeed anachronistic unless you are using a monospace font and wish to poorly approximate typeset text.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    5. Re:Germany had the last laugh... by Vlad_the_Inhaler · · Score: 1

      One period!
      One space!

      Nah, it does not have that ring to it.

      --
      Mielipiteet omiani - Opinions personal, facts suspect.
    6. Re:Germany had the last laugh... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ein Punkt, Ein Leerzeichen, Ein Führer?

    7. Re:Germany had the last laugh... by AthanasiusKircher · · Score: 1

      Germany had the last laugh... German has always been "one space after terminal punctuation in sentences", and since 2009 or so, that's been retcon'ed into English as well: "Ha! Take that English speakers!

      Umm, no.

      Making the sentence space the same size as the interword space is called "French spacing," which was a minority practice that was originally only common in some French publishing houses in the late 18th and 19th centuries. I also have no idea what 2009 has to do with it, since French spacing became the norm in most Americans and Western European publishing houses around 1950 or so.

    8. Re:Germany had the last laugh... by AthanasiusKircher · · Score: 4, Informative

      I always thought this rule was invented to make it easier for typesetters to distinguish the end of a sentence from abbreviations. Were the two spaces ever actually typeset?

      No, not quite.

      Early typesetting practices up to the late 1600s or so varied considerably according to local style. By the early 1700s, the standard practice emerged that larger spaces were placed after punctuation by typesetters to mark the ends of important parts of a sentence (which would allow readers to parse the meaning easier). The standard ultimately adopted in much of Europe was putting an M-quad (a square spacer the size of an 'M' in the font) after a period, an N-quad (the size of 'N', about half an M-quad) after lesser punctuation like commas, and a normal spacer (now called a "thick space") after words, which traditionally was about 1/3 of an em.

      Note that these were the way a typesetter would begin to space a line, but most typeset matter was justified, which means various spaces in the lines had to be modified and squeezed or stretched, which might in some cases involve adding extra spacers in places. (The rules for which spaces to add width to were often quite complex, for those typesetters who wanted to obtain an optimal result.)

      When typewriters first came into use in the late 1800s, people tried to imitate proper typesetting as best as they could by using 2 or 3 spaces after periods, and sometimes 2 spaces after other punctuation. Ultimately, the standard typesetting rule of 2 spaces after a period came about as an approximation to proper typeset text in the late 1800s.

      In the period of roughly the 1920s to 1960s, a little war among publishers to decrease publication costs in books led to poorer cheap materials being used, as well as anything to minimize costs, so interword spaces got squeezed to 1/4-em in many houses, margins got smaller, line spacing decreased, etc. Obviously the large sentence spaces now looked out of place, so they were also reduced gradually to an N-quad and then just a standard interword space. (This was previously known as "French spacing" -- not as anything to do with the Germans, as asserted by the GP. It was practiced in the 19th century in a small number of French publishing houses.)

      Meanwhile, typists were (and are) some of the few to attempt to retain the old larger sentence spaces that imitated the way things had been done in typesetting in the 18th and 19th centuries.

    9. Re:Germany had the last laugh... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I always thought this rule was invented to make it easier for typesetters to distinguish the end of a sentence from abbreviations. Were the two spaces ever actually typeset?

      By default, TeX puts a larger space after a period at the end of a sentence, or what it thinks is the end of a sentence. Sometimes it needs some human help. Ditto for derivatives of TeX (LaTeX, etc.)

    10. Re:Germany had the last laugh... by Whiteox · · Score: 1

      No. The space before the full stop has nothing to do with typesetting. It is a writing style now out of favour. A few years ago I edited a 500 page document and had to remove all the spaces before stops. Easy enough to do - just search for " " and replace with "" a few times but a hassle none the less. The author was an 80 year old writer of esoteric dogma. She also indented the first word at the beginning of every paragraph.

      --
      Don't be apathetic. Procrastinate!
    11. Re:Germany had the last laugh... by Whiteox · · Score: 1

      I have some old books (17th century) where the first word of the next page overleaf is printed under the text. When did this go out of fashion?

      --
      Don't be apathetic. Procrastinate!
    12. Re:Germany had the last laugh... by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      I wasn't talking about spaces before full-stops. Never seen that.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    13. Re:Germany had the last laugh... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      TeX emulates the "wedged full stop" that was used in the better typesetting systems. When you load the type, you put inter word spaces which are wedges and then you put equal pressure on them all and the words end up being properly justified. Someone came up with the idea of using a period and a wedge as one unit which helped with some edge cases.

    14. Re:Germany had the last laugh... by AthanasiusKircher · · Score: 1

      I have some old books (17th century) where the first word of the next page overleaf is printed under the text. When did this go out of fashion?

      That's a "catchword." They were used by binders to be sure pages or gatherings (i.e., groups of pages sewn as a unit) were in the correct order.

      They decreased in use significantly over the 1800s as printing machinery became more automated. You can still sometimes find them (or related marks to number gatherings) in handmade books in the early 1900s.

  10. Pfft. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    LATIN is the language of science. Sum iure ?

    1. Re:Pfft. by plopez · · Score: 1

      Don't forget the Greeks had a name for everything ;)

      --
      putting the 'B' in LGBTQ+
  11. Could have fooled me by O('_')O_Bush · · Score: 1

    "Today if a scientist is going to coin a new term, it's most likely in English."

    Could have fooled me. Looking at a broad range of newer terms in mathematics, physics, biology, and chemistry, an awful lot are Latin or derived from Latin.

    Where are the sources backing up that claim?

    --
    while(1) attack(People.Sandy);
    1. Re:Could have fooled me by Livius · · Score: 1

      And when they want something that sounds exotic, it will be Swahili, Polynesian, Japanese, etc.

    2. Re:Could have fooled me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Biology is the only field in which new terms derived from Latin are routinely adopted.

      Of course the great thing about English is, if English needs a word, it steals one as often as it invents one. Totally contrary to the attempts made by some countries to prevent the infiltration of foreign words. What do the French call email? What do the Turks call the internet?

    3. Re:Could have fooled me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      English language news sites... Try following the news in your 2nd or 3rd language and you will quickly notice how many terms are coined in those languages just to be translated so the people who can't be bothered to learn anything but their native english aren't left in the dark.

  12. Wow by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I didn't realize that _any_ language was banned before in America.

    Disgusting.

    1. Re:Wow by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you think Krauts and Japs were treated badly in the U.S., you should have seen how they treated Jews and Chinese.

  13. death of German math by phantomfive · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I read Turing's Cathedral recently that discussed this exact topic (with relation to math). German was still very strong after WW1 (Godel, Von Neumann, Hilbert, Einstein, Schrödinger and even more if you include groups like Hungary and Poland who were strong in math but discussed it in German, which is where we got Ulam and Teller). Unfortunately for the Germans, a lot of those mathematicians were Jewish, and they left when they saw war coming. Most of Ulam's family that didn't leave were killed in the Holocaust.

    In the US, some foresighted individuals (like Veblen, Aydeloytte and Flexner at Princeton's Advanced Institute especially) made a huge effort to help the German scientists escape. So many top scientists did leave that the entire center of science moved from the German world to America.

    --
    "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    1. Re:death of German math by Alomex · · Score: 1

      So many top scientists did leave that the entire center of science moved from the German world to America.

      Which lead to the radar, sonar and atomic bomb and hence victory in WWII. Think about that the next time your friendly republican says that cutting government budgets is always a good thing (particularly to give tax breaks to the wealthy)... but we digress.

    2. Re:death of German math by Bananenrepublik · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately for the Germans, a lot of those mathematicians were Jewish

      Wow. That's an unfortunate choice of words.

    3. Re:death of German math by Jeremy+Erwin · · Score: 1

      Turing's famous paper: On Computable numbers, with an application to the Entscheidungsproblem The paper's in English, but the problem it solved was formulated by David Hilbert, in German, in 1928.

    4. Re:death of German math by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So, Jewish scientists fled Germany because the Nazi government was reducing their budgets? What are you trying to say? Was this just an uniformed attempt to casually associate Nazism with the US Republican party?

    5. Re:death of German math by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're a moron and as dumb as the republicans you profess to burn.

      The Germans had the former two technologies as well and the Soviets invading Manchuria NOT Truman's (racist democrat) bombs, were responsible for the final victory with Japan.

      Jackass.

    6. Re:death of German math by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You must have missed the part in Obama's budget that cut CDC funding for over 250 million..

      We have a word for you in Ohio, regardless if you're a R or a D, it's 'DUMBASS'

    7. Re:death of German math by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't you mean an unfortunate choice of Nazi policy?

    8. Re:death of German math by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Which lead to the radar,

      British and German

      sonar

      Canadian and British

      and atomic bomb

      British and some German Jews.

    9. Re:death of German math by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The exodus of Jews from Germany in the mid 1930s had nothing to do with "seeing war coming", and everything to do with Nazi policies of religious and racial persecution.

    10. Re:death of German math by readin · · Score: 1

      So many top scientists did leave that the entire center of science moved from the German world to America.

      Which lead to the radar, sonar and atomic bomb and hence victory in WWII. Think about that the next time your friendly republican says that cutting government budgets is always a good thing (particularly to give tax breaks to the wealthy)... but we digress.

      Yes, next time your friendly Republican wants to cut government budgets, remember how freedom and lack of government oppression is what brought those great scientist to America, and that such freedom and limited government should be encouraged.

      --
      I often don't like the choices people make, but I like the fact that people make choices. That's why I'm a conservative.
    11. Re:death of German math by Alomex · · Score: 1

      Just because you cannot imagine a government that funds the sciences, patches holes in the streets, gives public schools decent funding and provides freedom it doesn't mean it can't be done. In fact according to the conservative Canadian think tank Frasier Institute there are six countries with higher freedom than America, five of which have significantly higher levels of government participation. They are, the according to you less free countries: New Zealand, Netherlands, Australia, Canada and Ireland.

      The one exception with much lower taxes and higher freedom? Hong Kong, which funnily enough is the one who is about to fall off the list given the events of the last few weeks.

      But go on telling yourself how cutting NIH budgets makes you "freer" every day.

    12. Re:death of German math by Bananenrepublik · · Score: 1

      Since it's the core of Nazi ideology, I don't think the goddess fortuna played much of a role and there wasn't any choice.

  14. Yes it did happen. by LWATCDR · · Score: 1

    My great grandfathers drug store was burned to the ground because he was unlucky enough to have the last name of Bosh in 1918.
    My uncle who was about 20 years older than my mother fought in WWII.

    --
    See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    1. Re:Yes it did happen. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The tool company is Bosch. The slang term for Krauts is boches.

      Somebody, somewhere in this tale, is fucking stupid.

    2. Re:Yes it did happen. by LWATCDR · · Score: 1

      My families name at the time was Bosh. We are in no way connected to the tool company but still german.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
  15. German science... by Savage-Rabbit · · Score: 3, Informative

    One can dump on the Germans as much as one wants but both during WWI and WWII they matched and in some fields outdid the allies in technology and scientific research despite these boycotts, despite the isolation and despite the stultifying effect that the Nazi regime had on parts of the German tech sector which says something about the caliber of German science, scientists and engineers. As late as the 1950s the chief designer of North American Aviation went to night school in order to learn German so that he might study German aerodynamics research more in more detail. This resulted in the complete redesign of the aircraft that was to be come the world beating North American F-86.

    --
    Only to idiots, are orders laws.
    -- Henning von Tresckow
    1. Re:German science... by NotDrWho · · Score: 0

      during WWI and WWII they matched and in some fields outdid the allies in technology and scientific research

      Yeah, they built some of the best ovens in the world.

      --
      SJW's don't eliminate discrimination. They just expropriate it for themselves.
    2. Re:German science... by ageoffri · · Score: 1

      Except the point of the article wasn't to dump on German scientific advancements. The Fine Article is showing that the political actions of Germany caused German scientist to be ostracized from the new mainstream science community. Politics impact scientist for good and bad and this is one example.

      --
      -- Slashdot, making the Left look conservative since 1997.
    3. Re:German science... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The entire US space program was run by former Nazi's...
      More or less because the US didn't even have a space program to speak off...

    4. Re:German science... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But their safety record was terrible.

    5. Re:German science... by PPH · · Score: 1

      Yeah, they built some of the best ovens in the world.

      Oh yeah? Nothing can beat a Dutch oven!

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
    6. Re:German science... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I know you are making a crude holocaust joke, but they are not the only crematoria ever built. It is a very common thing to have ovens to perform cremation of remains. I'm willing to bet those ovens have improved dramatically in 70 years, at least in terms of efficiency.

      The holocaust is not that the corpses of dead people were burned. It was all the horrible treatment up to and including the killing of people that was the holocaust.

    7. Re:German science... by Kjella · · Score: 1

      One can dump on the Germans as much as one wants but both during WWI and WWII they matched and in some fields outdid the allies in technology and scientific research despite these boycotts, despite the isolation and despite the stultifying effect that the Nazi regime had on parts of the German tech sector which says something about the caliber of German science, scientists and engineers.

      Germany lost WWII mainly through their own mistakes, their war machine was strong enough to break Europe's back. Major WTFs being:

      - Battle of Dunkirk, could have been a slaughter
      - No real plan for the Blitz
      - Opening the eastern front before Britain capitulated
      - Pearl Harbor, not really Germany's fault tho

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    8. Re:German science... by mvdwege · · Score: 1

      No. Once they invaded Poland, they were doomed from the start.

      With the state of their Navy, Air Force and operational doctrine, they had nothing to force Britain to capitulate. Churchill put his finger on it when he said "Hitler knows he has to break us in this island or lose the war". Germany had no means to succesfully invade and conquer Britain. At best approximation they had the forces to force a small beachhead, and be thrown back.

      Then there is the fact that the Molotov-von Ribbentrop pact was a marriage of convenience. While Stalin may have been complacent enough to disregard a German breaking of the pact, there is no way there would not eventually have been a war between two ideologies who were fundamentally opposed to each other. With Nazi Germany bleeding out in a campaign against Britain and the US (and a sustained push against Britain would have brought in the US), the temptation to open a second front and grab most of Eastern Europe would have been too great

      Any way you look at it, unless you have Wehrmacht fanboi goggles, the strategic situation had always to have been in Germany's disfavour.

      --
      "I know I will be modded down for this": where's the option '-1, Asking for it'?
    9. Re:German science... by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      One problem with alternate history (including speculations) is the tendency to figure that, while action A didn't work well, another action would have. Another is to see, with 20/20 hindsight, what might have worked. To go through your major WTFs:

      The Battle of Dunkirk could indeed have been a slaughter, if it had worked well. The usual alternative idea seems to be to send Panzer divisions into bad armor country, campaigning instead of refitting for the second part of the Battle of France. One of the reasons the Germans didn't press quite as hard was that they were much too confident in what their Air Force could do, and this was true of pretty much every Western belligerent with significant air power. (I don't know much about Soviet and Japanese air power theory.)

      The Blitz had no real plan, and no belligerent had a good strategic warfare strategy in Europe. That includes the British (excessive concentration on city-busting, which was not a particularly good target), and the US (no concentration on any useful target type). The Allied Transportation Plan was conceived largely to reduce German strategic mobility, not to destroy the German economy. In any case, while the Transportation Plan and Oil Plan were in effect, Bomber Command did a lot of city-busting while the Eighth and Fifteenth Air Forces bombed all sorts of targets.

      Hitler's main war goal was a final solution for the Jews (we all know which one he settled on). His secondary goal was to conquer much of the Slavic lands to expand Germany. He was not going to leave the Soviet Union alone, particularly since he had a very low opinion of it. He thought, correctly, that defeating Britain would be a long and expensive undertaking, and part of the idea behind hitting the Soviets in June 1941 was to destroy a power Churchill thought of as a potential ally. In fact, after Finland and the Battle of France the Red Army was busy reorganizing and modernizing. There were actually forty tank divisions facing the German invasion, most of which were woefully underequipped and badly trained. Give the Soviets another year, and there would have been forty tank divisions which were mostly underequipped and trained to a mediocre standard. Some of these tank divisions (the 8th in particular) put up a stiff fight. In 1942, the Soviets would have put up a much stronger fight. Note that, by 1943, they were fully able to stop a German strategic offensive despite having had their army basically destroyed in 1941 and having to rebuild during 1942 while fighting a desperate war.

      Roosevelt was always going to intervene against Germany. In September 1941, he put the US Navy on a war footing in the Atlantic, meaning that the USN was at war against Germany (and not really doing well). Pearl Harbor and Japan succeeded in diverting a lot of US effort and materiel to the Pacific in the first year the US was formally in the war, and US entry when it did arguably reduced Allied fighting power in Europe for a time, as the US accelerated its rapid buildup.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
  16. Welcome to Latin by Khyber · · Score: 1

    Germanic means shit when we have a base language to work from.

    If this wasn't immediately obvious, then most of you likely have no reason to be in the scientific field.

    --
    Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    1. Re:Welcome to Latin by jfdavis668 · · Score: 0

      People have forgotten that German and English used to be the same language, back when all those Angles and Saxons decided to invade.

    2. Re:Welcome to Latin by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      Not really. They spoke low Germanic dialects, which are closer to Dutch.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    3. Re:Welcome to Latin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      English (and dutch) didn't make the first lautverschiebung, and yes thats closer to dutch. I neither know spanish, dutch nor italian, but I guess that the relation dutchgerman is like those two languages.

    4. Re:Welcome to Latin by jfdavis668 · · Score: 1

      Much of northern Germany is still populated by Saxons. They still speak a low Germanic dialect, and are considered to be speaking German. The modern German language evolved over time. It didn't exist when the Angles and Saxons sailed off to England.

  17. Because the US was really the only winner of WWI. by LWATCDR · · Score: 1

    World War I devastated Europe in both lives and in wealth. The US came out of WWI as a world power. Sure the US lost a lot of men but nothing like the number France, Germany, and the UK lost. The US filled the gap in science after WWI. It didn't hurt that Edison had invented the industrial research lab and other companies in the US soon developed labs of their own.

    --
    See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
  18. How English Beat German As the Language of Science by Eloking · · Score: 1

    Two words : "World Wars".

    --
    Elok
  19. Old articles by jfdavis668 · · Score: 0

    Why is slashdot suddenly full of articles I read on other web sites days ago?

    1. Re:Old articles by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      Luxury! When I were a lad, slashdot was full of articles I'd read on slashdot a few days ago.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
  20. Re:How English Beat German As the Language of Scie by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Plus, the Germans insisted on using the metric system.

  21. Re:How English Beat German As the Language of Scie by jfdavis668 · · Score: 1

    In science, everyone uses the metric system. Now, if we can only get the engineers to convert.

  22. because once they hit the web, they get submitted by swschrad · · Score: 1

    it is far more likely to have first read on an article about the new GUI in one or another Linux distro on Slashdot than first read about transmission of Ebola through improper sterlilization of overgloves before disrobing. the AP will get the Ebola stories first. once the East Gutwrench Reporter and Advertiser runs the AP story two days later, when they're run out of new angles for stories about the new paint job at Ernie's Cafe, some tech in East Gutwrench will submit it because it's cool.

    --
    if this is supposed to be a new economy, how come they still want my old fashioned money?
  23. Re:How English Beat German As the Language of Scie by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Did you notice the whooshing sound when the joke went over your head?

  24. Hyperbole much? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "The Supreme Court overturned those anti-German laws in 1923, but for years they were the law of the land."

    You mean the laws enacted in 1917?

    So that would be six. Six years.

    That doesn't make it any more acceptable, but six years isn't long enough in legislative terms for most things to take hold and affect all future generations.
    I'm more inclined to think it was the second world war hot on the heels of that first one. That left a worse mark on the German reputation, and six years of war scars a generation far deeper than six years of useless laws.

  25. They speak English in Star Trek by skaag · · Score: 1

    Obviously English becomes the language of our planet before star date 2233.

    --

    All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain... time... to... die...

  26. Royal Society by DrElJeffe · · Score: 1

    Don't discount the Royal Society journals and the early influence of British scientists. Yes, Newton's principia was published in latin, but the Journal of the Royal Society was printed in english. Even Leeuwenhoek had to have his work translated into english to get it published. I would say that the language of science went from greek to arabic, then to an early mix of latin and english, then to german due to the influence of the thriving german chemical and optical industries, then back to english.

  27. Re:How English Beat German As the Language of Scie by Deadstick · · Score: 1

    Two words : "World Wars".

    There was only one of those, with a twenty-year lull in the fighting.

  28. Plus ca change by Deadstick · · Score: 2

    1917: Sauerkraut becomes Liberty Cabbage.
    2003: French fries become Freedom Fries.

    1. Re:Plus ca change by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...and we weren't even at war AGAINST the French...

    2. Re:Plus ca change by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I always thought that around 1917 was when 'Frankfurters' became 'Hot Dogs' as well...not sure if that's true though.

    3. Re:Plus ca change by Vintermann · · Score: 1

      Hamburgers are still hamburgers, though.

      --
      xkcd is not in the sudoers file. This incident will be reported.
    4. Re:Plus ca change by codeButcher · · Score: 1

      I guess you do know that the statue honoring Liberty, which was gifted to America by the French, is hollow? The French do seem to have a fine sense of humor.

      --
      Free, as in your money being freed from the confines of your account.
    5. Re:Plus ca change by Deadstick · · Score: 1

      I guess you do know that the statue honoring Liberty, which was gifted to America by the French, is hollow? The French do seem to have a fine sense of humor.

      Don't know about their sense of humor, but they obviously know it wouldn't be very clever to make a large metal statue out of a solid lump.

    6. Re:Plus ca change by Deadstick · · Score: 1

      No, they became Liberty Sausage.

  29. my rant... by bkmoore · · Score: 4, Funny

    My Herrschaft, German really is such a Biedermeier language and and doesn't fit with the current Zeitgeist. It has a gestalt that is more suited for 19th century expression. After the English-language Blitzkrieg that has taken over most pop culture, any german-language expression is seen as just a lot of flak from a karabiner. I guess we'll have to replace classical german terms such as Herz, Eigen-vector, E-Modul, with a more english ideal; cycles-per-second (so much for brevity). But German is such a beautiful language an sich. I really had my Aha-Erlebnis when I realised that german expressions were no longer associated with übermenschen traveling in U-Boots or flying in Luftwaffe planes. Now the whole world can enjoy rooting for German Wunderkinder on the national team, and at home recreate the best parts playing foosball. Maybe the French feel a bit of Schadenfreude at seeing the significant influence of german Gedanken in the english language. Maybe someday they'll be a putsch and French will take over, but for now, I'm counting on a german-language encore.

    1. Re:my rant... by the_other_chewey · · Score: 1

      replace Herz, [...] with a more english ideal; cycles-per-second (so much for brevity).

      This one is a false near-cognate: The cycles-per-second unit is "Hertz", as in Heinrich, not as in heart.
      That still makes it German though...

    2. Re:my rant... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You do realize that some of your so called 'German' words are actually of romance origin?

    3. Re:my rant... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      French had more influence on english than german. Havent you heard of normans invading england? really I as a german had this in english class why you not?

    4. Re:my rant... by Rising+Ape · · Score: 1

      Yes that's right, but the Norman words are so well integrated now that most English speakers wouldn't recognise them as foreign. The German ones still tend to look German. I doubt too many people would see this post and know that recognise, foreign, tend, recent, doubt, people and post are loanwords. "Integrate" still has a foreign feel about it though.

  30. WWII not WWI by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    The Slashdot summary gets it wrong. The anti-German hysteria that surrounded WWI did little to harm the mystique that surrounded German scholarship and the sciences. If you wanted to be near the top of your profession, you still needed to study in Germany. The Journal of the American Medical Association went out of its way in the 1920s and 1930s to report on developments in German medicine. German obsession with detail and their work ethic still trumped that fading war hysteria.

    It was Nazism and the horrors of World War II, including the complicity of German science and medicine in those policies, that pushed Germany into second place. Forcing Jewish scientists to leave began the process. Making academia politically correct continued it. In physics and other fields, Jewish were dramatically overrepresented. Jews made up but 1% of the German population, but they'd be awarded a quarter of the nation's Noble Prizes. Most of those Jews came to the United States and remained there after the war.

    And the fact that the U.S. ended the war far better off economically than any European country, meant that far more money was available for research here than in battered Germany. That also attracted scientists here in large numbers. Nazism, WWII, and post-war money made the difference, not the hysteria surrounding WWI.

    That BBC article illustrates how foolish it is to get your news from journalists. Driven almost exclusively by fads and hysterias, journalist think history is driven by the same forces. Not so.

    1. Re:WWII not WWI by g01d4 · · Score: 2

      If you wanted to be near the top of your profession, you still needed to study in Germany

      Or at least know German. When I was in HS in the mid 70's you were expected to take three years of German if you wanted to major in a science. I was lazy and went with Spanish. Sure enough when it was time for my senior project in college an important relatively current journal article was in German. I asked a professor to translate it for me. When my results didn't come out as expected I had a go at the relevant section of article myself. Parsing the math and scientific terms I was able figure out what the issue was. For a short while afterwards there was a shift towards Russian if you wanted a relevant language. Didn't last that long.

    2. Re:WWII not WWI by PPH · · Score: 1

      Please bear with the Slashdot editors. Word of of the second World War hasn't made it here yet.

      Stand by for breaking news.

      --
      Have gnu, will travel.
  31. German Ancestry by Jason+Levine · · Score: 1

    I did some ancestry work on my wife's family awhile back. The family story was that they came from Russia. I was surprised to find that one of her direct ancestors was listed as coming from Germany in one census and then Russia in another census. Now, it could have been a mistake (census takers were never perfect) or it could have been a German ancestor lying and saying he was Russian to escape anti-German sentiment. It would have been right around this time as well.

    --
    My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
    1. Re:German Ancestry by jfdavis668 · · Score: 1

      Or, they could have come from somewhere which was part of one and now part of the other.

    2. Re:German Ancestry by mbone · · Score: 1

      Or they could have been some of Catherine the Great's Volga Germans, whom I believe still qualify for German citizenship, even if they were born in Russia and never spoke German.

    3. Re:German Ancestry by painandgreed · · Score: 1

      I did some ancestry work on my wife's family awhile back. The family story was that they came from Russia. I was surprised to find that one of her direct ancestors was listed as coming from Germany in one census and then Russia in another census. Now, it could have been a mistake (census takers were never perfect) or it could have been a German ancestor lying and saying he was Russian to escape anti-German sentiment. It would have been right around this time as well.

      I've done some genealogy work and seen similar things. My conclusions is that the censuses simply weren't taken all that seriously. I've been looking at pictures of the original census pages and it's obvious that they were filled out by a single person doing all the writing and getting information from the head of the household, probably waiting in line. Either the person giving the information, most likely head of household, or the person doing the writing were not looking at correctness and detailed records, but a headcount for states voting purposes. I've seen names that were illegible or abbreviated severely, different spellings of first names, names that changed from census to census and hardly followed any sort of legal name criteria usually bouncing between first and middle given names, the wrong last names being used because it was too similar to the name of the person previous in the census and the writer probably misheard and assumed they were the same family, different states of birth listed for people I know are the same person, etc. No doubt your ancestor could have given a fake country of origin, perhaps gave it as it was at that time, or started to explain and the writer just decided to write something down quickly.

  32. Re:How English Beat German As the Language of Scie by jfdavis668 · · Score: 1

    Did you notice the whooshing sound when MY joke went over your head?

  33. Because Latin? by neo-mkrey · · Score: 1

    Can't take anything this guy says seriously if he doesn't mention the root language of Latin.

    1. Re:Because Latin? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What's the root language of Latin?

      Did you mean "the root language, Latin"?

    2. Re:Because Latin? by myoparo · · Score: 1

      Except that Latin is only the "root language" for Romance languages and, last I checked, English is not one of those. Yes, we've borrowed a great deal of Latin words and created our own imaginary Latinate forms, but this is not something that other languages, such as German, couldn't do either.

    3. Re:Because Latin? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Koine Greek or STFU.

    4. Re:Because Latin? by jfdavis668 · · Score: 1

      Let's go all the way back to Linear A.

  34. Re:How English Beat German As the Language of Scie by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    To whoosh someone, your joke actually has to be funny. His was, yours wasn't.

  35. Criminalizing a language. by Ihlosi · · Score: 1

    ... why aren't there mandatory whippings for blatant disregard of the Constitution when making laws?

    1. Re:Criminalizing a language. by ProzacPatient · · Score: 1

      ... why aren't there mandatory whippings for blatant disregard of the Constitution when making laws?

      I figure your comment is probably sarcastic but I'll just say that legislators would have to be guilty of something specifically codified in criminal law to be receiving such punishment but since it is not illegal to make dumb laws there is no punishment.
      Even if it were somehow illegal the Eight Amendment of the very same Constitution forbids such punishment.

    2. Re:Criminalizing a language. by readin · · Score: 1

      ... why aren't there mandatory whippings for blatant disregard of the Constitution when making laws?

      I figure your comment is probably sarcastic but I'll just say that legislators would have to be guilty of something specifically codified in criminal law to be receiving such punishment but since it is not illegal to make dumb laws there is no punishment. Even if it were somehow illegal the Eight Amendment of the very same Constitution forbids such punishment.

      I guess it depends on your definition of cruel and unusual. America has mostly discarded physical punishments such as whippings, but given a choice between a whipping and three years in jail where I'm likely to receive beatings just as bad or worse than the whipping anyway - the whipping would seem less cruel and unusual.

      And what about long sentences that effectively remove the prime of your life? You go to jail when you're twenty and come out when your 40 (especially bad for a women who may be deprived of the opportunity to ever have children). 200 or even 400 lashes delivered 10 at a time on a monthly basis (or whatever the back can tolerate) would again seem far less cruel and unusual.

      --
      I often don't like the choices people make, but I like the fact that people make choices. That's why I'm a conservative.
    3. Re:Criminalizing a language. by readin · · Score: 1

      ... why aren't there mandatory whippings for blatant disregard of the Constitution when making laws?

      I figure your comment is probably sarcastic but I'll just say that legislators would have to be guilty of something specifically codified in criminal law to be receiving such punishment but since it is not illegal to make dumb laws there is no punishment. Even if it were somehow illegal the Eight Amendment of the very same Constitution forbids such punishment.

      Whether or not it is in the criminal law, it is by definition illegal to violate the Constitution because the Constitution is the law of the land. You're right though that no punishment is specified. Perhaps their should be.

      --
      I often don't like the choices people make, but I like the fact that people make choices. That's why I'm a conservative.
  36. More due to money spent on research by jbeach · · Score: 1

    ...then some theories about German itself falling out of favor. The US leads the world in research spending, while Germany is fourth. No language conspiracy theories needed to explain this. Also, means we better continue outspending China and Russia.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L...

    This is a similar reason as to why the Islamic world fell behind, after having such an early lead in science and math. They simply spent less on research than the other nations around them.

    http://www.meforum.org/306/why...

    --
    The Invisible Hand of the Free Market is what punches workers in the nuts.
  37. Ever Heard of an Alsatian Wolf Dog? by l0ungeb0y · · Score: 1

    It's what we commonly refer to as a German Shepherd -- but after WWI, the notion of "German" anything was so reviled that they started calling German Shepherds Alsatians. It was this bias, hatred and on-going punitive measures against Germany post WWI that helped bring Hitler to power. With that in mind, I can only imagine what global menace shall be unleashed after renaming French Fries to Freedom Fries.

  38. Two words by mbone · · Score: 1

    Adolph Hitler

    There was lots of groundbreaking research published in German in 1930. By 1950, not so much.

    1. Re:Two words by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      stupid austrian immigrants.

    2. Re:Two words by Famak1994 · · Score: 2

      Most of what caused WW1 and 2 was the speed at which Germany was advancing in technology which Britain feared tremendously. But what really kicked it off was their advancements in submarine technology:

      "At the start of World War I, Germany had twenty-nine U-boats; in the first ten weeks, five British cruisers had been lost to them. On 5 September 1914, HMS Pathfinder was sunk by SM U-21, the first ship to have been sunk by a submarine using a self-propelled torpedo. On 22 September, U-9 sank the obsolete British warships HMS Aboukir, HMS Cressy and HMS Hogue (the "Live Bait Squadron") in a single hour."

    3. Re:Two words by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      In the case of the three British cruisers, they assumed that they'd run into a minefield, and slowed down and tried to recover survivors from the first to sink. The British had submarines and torpedoes at this time, also.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
  39. Common? by Myria · · Score: 1

    The point is that claiming "things are worse than ever" is pretty silly in a country where it used to be common for people to own slaves.

    Except that it was never common to own slaves. Slave ownership was primarily among Southern aristocrats--your average white Southerner wasn't rich enough to afford one.

    Still laughed, though. <3

    --
    "Screw Sun, cross-platform will never work. Let's move on and steal the Java language." - Visual J++ Product Manager
    1. Re:Common? by ShanghaiBill · · Score: 1

      Except that it was never common to own slaves.

      It may have been uncommon to own slaves, but it was much more common to be one.

    2. Re:Common? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And had they not been black slaves, then, like many other place, they would be white slaves from the local below-average people.

      second class citizens don't even have to be different, they just have to be available.

    3. Re:Common? by crunchygranola · · Score: 1

      Except that it was never common to own slaves. Slave ownership was primarily among Southern aristocrats--your average white Southerner wasn't rich enough to afford one.

      Would you agree with the statement "it is not common in the U.S. today to own an SUV"?

      In suspect most people would disagree with this, and say that SUV ownership is common. The average number of vehicles per household is about 1.9, and the fraction of passenger vehicles on the road that are SUVs is 11%, so we can estimate that one in five households in the U.S. owns a SUV.

      In the slave holding regions of the U.S. one in three families owned slaves! In the seven states of the lower south there were as many slaves as there were white people, under such conditions how could it possibly be that ownership was rare?

      I submit that the statement "slave ownership was primarily among Southern aristocrats" is essentially a tautology - it is true only if you consider most anyone owning a slave an "aristocrat".

      --
      Second class citizen of the New Gilded Age
  40. The American Language by westlake · · Score: 2, Informative

    The US changed the language after breaking off from Britain changing 's' to 'z' in many spellings for example

    Noah Webster published his speller in 1783. His grammar in 1784, and his dictionary in 1826.

    His most important improvement, he claimed, was to rescue "our native tongue" from "the clamour of pedantry" that surrounded English grammar and pronunciation. He complained that the English language had been corrupted by the British aristocracy, which set its own standard for proper spelling and pronunciation. Webster rejected the notion that the study of Greek and Latin must precede the study of English grammar. The appropriate standard for the American language, argued Webster, was "the same republican principles as American civil and ecclesiastical constitutions". This meant that the people-at-large must control the language; popular sovereignty in government must be accompanied by popular usage in language.

    Noah Webster

    This is an essentially modern approach to language and usage.

    You see it in H.L. Mencken, you see it in The American Heritage Dictionary.

    One of the most provocative essays in Shakespeare in America: An Anthology from the Revolution to Now: (Library of America #251) offers a much needed reminder that Shakespeare first attracted readers and audiences in the states because the language was familiar and accessible.

    Very close to what you would have heard on the street.

    ''American audiences will hear an accent and style surprisingly like their own in its informality and strong r-colored vowels,'' Meier said. ''The original pronunciation performance strongly contrasts with the notions of precise and polished delivery created by John Gielgud, Laurence Olivier and their colleagues from the 20th century British theater.''

    Meier said audiences will hear word play and rhymes that ''haven't worked for several hundred years (love/prove, eyes/qualities, etc.) magically restored, as Bottom, Puck and company wind the language clock back to 1595.''

    ''The audience will hear rough and surprisingly vernacular diction, they will hear echoes of Irish, New England and Cockney that survive to this day as 'dialect fossils.' And they will be delighted by how very understandable the language is, despite the intervening centuries.''

    First US performance of Shakespeare in the original pronunciation

    1. Re:The American Language by Jeremy+Erwin · · Score: 1

      The last link is very interesting. Thanks.

  41. Ohjeminechen! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So eine Sauerei, ja fick doch die Ingeborg!

  42. Re:How English Beat German As the Language of Scie by jfdavis668 · · Score: 1

    Depends on if you are a scientist or engineer.

  43. And what does this mean? by joh · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It means that Germans are able to read German stuff AND English stuff while many scientists from the US are just able to read English things.

    By the way, learning a second language as early and thoroughly as possible does something to you. It breaks the unconscious 1:1 connection between concepts and words and makes you understand that even the best language is just a poor crutch. There have been countless studies about that. It even helps a lot with not reacting by instinct to things you hear and read because you have learned to differentiate between words and meanings and helps you to grow a kind of conscious processing layer between them. I've learned to never trust the words of someone who knows only one language. Chances are that most of what he treats as thoughts are just unconscious reactions. Things like knowing that the word "freedom" has the same roots as the German "Frieden" ("peace" as opposed to "war") actually helps you with understanding the world instead of just parroting noises.

    Not so long ago you would never have been considered educated if you couldn't read and write at least two, maybe three or four languages. And I think there's more to that than just quantity. It's a bit like being able to see with two eyes instead of one, you gain the insight that there's actual a room in front of you and not just a picture. It adds a quality that is very hard to acquire when words, ideas and concepts are all the same to you in a totally unconscious way that you soaked up mostly in childhood (basically very much like an animal).

    So: I think that learning a second language may easily be the most important thing you can learn in the long run.

    1. Re:And what does this mean? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We call such individuals rootless cosmopolitans.

    2. Re:And what does this mean? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Those who can speak two languages are called Bilingual.
      Those who can speak three or more languages are called Polylingual.
      Those who can only speak one language are called American.

    3. Re:And what does this mean? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The closest common root for "freedom" and "Frieden" is Proto-Indo-European *pray- ("to like/love/be fond of"). That was a very, very long time ago, with quite a different meaning still. After that, the geneses of both words diverged significantly, and that they converged again to sound similar is pure chance. So the notions of "freedom" and "peace" are only related by the fact that both are desirable, nothing more.

    4. Re:And what does this mean? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      BTW, "peace" and "freedom" are related by the exact same root. Only they didn't converge again.

    5. Re:And what does this mean? by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      It breaks the unconscious 1:1 connection between concepts and words and makes you understand that even the best language is just a poor crutch. There have been countless studies about that.

      Really? What studies? I have observed this concept, but I have never seen studies about it.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
  44. It Will Change by sycodon · · Score: 2

    Language usage rises and falls with the dominate civilizations. French, German, Latin, Greek, Arabic (of some kind) all had a go at it in the past.

    English will probably give way to Chinese at some point.

    --
    When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
    1. Re: It Will Change by Hognoxious · · Score: 2

      Language usage rises and falls with the dominate civilizations.

      Perhaps your native tongue will get a turn one day.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    2. Re:It Will Change by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Who with the ability to properly metabolize alcohol and thus understand individualism would want to live under collectivist Asian rule? Until the time of Abraham, the whole of humanity was united in idolatry, colllectivism, every birth a rebirth and other expressions of Easternness.

    3. Re:It Will Change by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I doubt that Chinese will ever become a global written language. The Chinese character set is simply too complex for the return on investment of the number of native Chinese speakers. Anyway, I can recall a documentary in the mid-1980s which pointed out that "there are more people in China learning to speak English as a second language than there are people in the US".

      As for the rest of the world learning to *write* Chinese... http://pinyin.info/readings/texts/moser.html

    4. Re: It Will Change by Capsaicin · · Score: 1

      I don't often praise people for being grammar nazis, but using spelling (do they pronounce it that way too?) 'dominant' as 'dominate' really does grate ... so thank you! It's a surprisingly common mistake as well.

      --
      Better to be despised for too anxious apprehensions, than ruined by too confident a security. --Edmund Burke
    5. Re: It Will Change by rezme · · Score: 1

      That, and the whole concept of a grammar "nazi" on this thread is somewhat apropos as well.

  45. German was widely used natively in the US by smellsofbikes · · Score: 1

    Until as late as the 1850's, there were as many German speakers in Pennsylvania as English speakers, and until just before WWI it was common to hear people speaking German in the streets of any of the large cities. (There are still about a quarter million people in Pennsylvania who speak a version of German as their primary or daily-use secondary language, apparently.)
    Likewise, in Colorado, there were so many German speakers that when Colorado became a state in 1876, the laws of the state were distributed, by law, in English, Spanish, and German, until 1914.
    Those are the two states I know best: I presume many other states had similar situations.

    --
    Nostalgia's not what it used to be.
  46. Foreign Languages in Schools by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I was in high school in the 1970s, and in my school district there was no foreign language instruction before the freshman year of high school. We had two choices. German or Spanish. Students with and interest in science and technology were urged to take German, and everyone else to take Spanish, because, hey, Mexico was only 1200 miles away, and they might want to vacation there some day. I never used my knowledge of German professionally, but I enjoyed being an exchange student (once I got over the culture shock, and got a German girlfriend) and still visit every few years. In fact I'm headed back next week. TschÃf¼s!

  47. It always changes. by Etherwalk · · Score: 1

    Yes--It was Latin for a thousand years, then it started to be okay to write poetry and the like in modern languages. (Petrarch, in Italian). And to use it for scholarship after that, and we had the industrial revolution. I guess German was winning for a while, and now English is.

    It may be Chinese in seventy years or so, but maybe not--I've heard Mandarin is rather difficult to learn, which may slow it down.

    But then, Latin wasn't exactly a walk in the park.

  48. segregation by avgapon · · Score: 1

    so, do you know when racial segregation was outlawed in your country?

  49. Summary is a BBC rip-off by Gimble · · Score: 1

    The summary is a blatant rip-off of the BBC article found here.

  50. Re:How English Beat German As the Language of Scie by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

    And luckily neither went to penalties, or the Germans would be dominating Europe even now.

    I'll get me coat.

    --
    Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
  51. Wortlaengerheitversicherungsmittelstoff by Hognoxious · · Score: 2

    Isn't the real reason that scientific words are already long enough without joining three or four of them together?

    --
    Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    1. Re:Wortlaengerheitversicherungsmittelstoff by Famak1994 · · Score: 1

      Still, English is a terrible auxiliary language since it's riddled with bigotry and ambiguities. (eg two, to, too)

      I'm waiting for the day when we finally drop this pitiful language and adopt a constructed language that's purely based upon logic such as Lojban...

  52. I like the English Beat by Morpeth · · Score: 1

    Had some good tunes, and they spawned The Fine Young Cannibals and General Public

    --

    'The unexamined life is not worth living' - Socrates
    1. Re:I like the English Beat by GrahamCox · · Score: 1

      Or "The Beat" as they were actually called, in their home country.

  53. It also helps by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    When a paper is written with more than one word.

    The German language is mostly constructed out of making ever longer words out of independent ones

  54. Obligatory screed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In the USA, learning a foreign language is tacit admission of foreign policy failure.

  55. The problem with tautological reasoning by Mister+Liberty · · Score: 1

    Is that according to the gist of this article, there is no Science in China.

  56. Chemistry by TheSync · · Score: 1

    In the late 1950's, my father had to take German as part of his chemistry grad school (think Adolf von Baeyer, Fritz Haber, Otto Wallach, Richard WillstÃtter).

    Now as far as I see, the highest SJR ranking German-language titled journal is Journal fur die Reine und Angewandte Mathematik founded in 1826, but most articles in it are English language.

    Also ironically Springer Science+Business Media, a leading scientific journal publisher mainly of English language journals, is based in Germany.

  57. Re:How English Beat German As the Language of Scie by Whiteox · · Score: 1

    Plus, the Germans insisted on using the metric system.

    Much better than the Napoleonic measurement. That was a disaster.

    --
    Don't be apathetic. Procrastinate!
  58. Half true... by Famak1994 · · Score: 1

    German was a contestant, but French was the dominate auxlang (auxiliary language) used by most politicians internationally at the time.

    As far as the international effort to criminalize Germany:

    It should be worth mentioning that it's illegal in over 13 nations to question the history of the holocaust and that the numbers are based on eye witness reports and not actual forensics. Furthermore, antisemitism is a misnomer since the word 'Semitic' is a linguistic term that refers to a group of languages from the Middle East and has absolutely nothing to do with genetics nor religion. It was first coined by those who were in opposition of Jewish businesses reviving the Hebrew language (which had been a dead language for almost a thousand years) as a means of communication with one another back in the 1800s. However what sparked WW1 was Britain's fear of Germany's technological advancements in submarine technology which posed a great threat against their world dominating Navy.

    Of course, everything that I've just said could get me deported to a country that takes offense and convicted as a criminal against history even though it's the job of historians to constantly revise history as new data is gathered...

    1. Re:Half true... by Optali · · Score: 1

      Allow me to tell you, mr. Eyewithness Reports, that I have lived in one of the towns were Dora Mittelbau was placed (check it out in Google). I have seen Bergen Belsen and there are still MILLIONS of Germans who's fathers and mothers have either been in one of the camps or known about them. And do you now how these who "Knew about them" gained knowledge of these places? Easy: They were forced to BURY the death after the liberation.

      If this is not enough, there are FILMS and PHOTOGRAPHIES, some made by the Nazis, who as good Germans where very meticulous in everything. But wait. there is more: Documentation, tons, and tons of documents, from the memoirs of the Wannsee Conference to the minute logistics of the trains schedules...

      In your utter idiocy you forget that it was not only the Germans who were involved, but that you will find victims (and excecutors) in all EUROPE, specially in Russia .

      To make matters worse, the Nazis not only killed their enemies, but they also forced "common" people from what was supposed to be their allied countries into slavery: Here in Holland the Dutch still remember how 9 of every 10 men in working conditions were deported to Germany were many died just as the Jews in the camps... and these were "friendly" inhabitants of a country known to have offered little to no resistance. Among these Dutch who remember is my wife, who's grandpa was among the deported. I myself have known people with the KZ tattoos during my childhood (nope, it was not hip then and they weren't jews).

      So make me a favour with your "only eye-witness" and go search for Sasquatch or burn crosses somewhere and shut up this butthole of yours that you call mouth.

      --
      -- 29A the number of the Beast
    2. Re:Half true... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's a well known fact that no formal investigation has been done on all of those who died which is stated in nearly every history book. But I agree with you that it's bit unfair that the modern world ignores that it wasn't just Jews who died but the mentally ill, the physically disabled, and many other peoples from varying nations and religious backgrounds. Yet because of one controversial Jewish law, nobody is allowed to conduct any kind of forensic investigation nor return the remains of their loved ones to their families to be properly buried.

  59. Chinese by vasilevich · · Score: 0

    ... not to alarm you, but how about Chinese? Asia is growing in power, economically, socially, politically. Will Chinese surpass English in the future?

    1. Re:Chinese by readin · · Score: 1

      ... not to alarm you, but how about Chinese? Asia is growing in power, economically, socially, politically. Will Chinese surpass English in the future?

      Not Chinese as it is currently written. It is too hard to learn. It is to hard to type. Chinese written with pinyin may work, but I'm not sure if the number of homophones will make that difficult.

      Chinese as spoken might work. The grammar is simple. I can't say much about the precision and ambiguity since I don't know the language that well.

      Currently Chinese scientists learn and use English. The transition would likely occur if the Chinese government decided to make it happen by sponsoring conventions, journals, and such.

      --
      I often don't like the choices people make, but I like the fact that people make choices. That's why I'm a conservative.
    2. Re:Chinese by Famak1994 · · Score: 1

      Natural languages (Chinese, English, German, French, etc) all have their languistic flaws in the face of globalization. Sooner or later, an international effort needs to be pushed forward to construct a language that is not only phonetically/logically free of ambiguities, but can easily be adopted by nearly everyone.

      English is merely a placeholder until that time comes. In other words, our capacity to think and reason is limited by the language that we think in. The only way we'll be able to reach beyond these limitations is to construct a language that will allow us to think in ways that go beyond the current limitations.

      A prime example is Lojban: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L...

    3. Re:Chinese by readin · · Score: 1

      Even the Chinese have trouble learning to write Chinese. It is more severe than the flaws of most languages - especially in an age of typing. But I'm pretty sure they teach pinyin to all the kids in China (except perhaps HK and Macau) so pinyin might take over as a written language. I believe it is already heavily used as an input tool for computers (they type the pinyin and a list of characters that match show up - then they select the character).

      Esperanto and Lobjan haven't caught on nor are they likely too. It is hard enough to learn a new language - learning one that no one uses doesn't interest many people.

      --
      I often don't like the choices people make, but I like the fact that people make choices. That's why I'm a conservative.
  60. Re:How English Beat German As the Language of Scie by readin · · Score: 0

    In science, everyone uses the metric system.

    You're right. It's not just the Germans. The largest French-speaking country uses French units. The largest Chinese-speaking country uses French units. The largest Spanish speaking countries all use French units. Japan uses French units.
    Only America uses practical units. No wonder we're so technologically advanced and our language has become a standard.

    Now, if we can only get the engineers to convert.

    Not just Engineers. Everyone should convert away from those French units and return to using the rational measurement system America uses.

    --
    I often don't like the choices people make, but I like the fact that people make choices. That's why I'm a conservative.
  61. They forgot a few other issues by thogard · · Score: 1

    German and English won in the engineering world because of compound words. You can invent a new device and create a name that works in letter describing it.

    English wins over German because of the relative lack of gendered words. Genders can get very messed up when using compound words. As an example, if a boat is female and a trailer is male, what gender should a boat-trailer be?

    1. Re:They forgot a few other issues by silfen · · Score: 1

      if a boat is female and a trailer is male, what gender should a boat-trailer be?

      It's necessarily determined by the last word in the compound because German uses suffixes to indicate case and gender.

  62. WWII proably didn't help much either by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Think Holocaust.

    We know the famous ones that left before the worst of it began, can you imagine how many didn't?

    I also think Hiroshima. I also think Nagasaki. I also think Dresden. I also think Hamburg. I also think thousands of other crimes in history.

    I think that bigotry will not help prevent a next world war.

    Paai

  63. Because the US was really the only winner of WWI. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    World War I devastated Europe in both lives and in wealth. The US came out of WWI as a world power. Sure the US lost a lot of men but nothing like the number France, Germany, and the UK lost. The US filled the gap in science after WWI. It didn't hurt that Edison had invented the industrial research lab and other companies in the US soon developed labs of their own.

    France lost the first world war, England the second (thanks to the US who confiscated a large part of her empire). Funny thing is that after each war Germany rebounded within twenty years to become the most powerful nation in Europa.

    Paai

  64. WWII not WWI by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...

    The Slashdot summary gets it wrong. The anti-German hysteria that surrounded WWI did little to harm the mystique that surrounded German scholarship and the sciences. ... It was Nazism and the horrors of World War II, including the complicity of German science and medicine in those policies, that pushed Germany into second place.

    ...

    Sorry to dispel these myths, but the chance from German to English was driven by plain old numbers. In most systems, physical, sociological, whatever, when a treshold is reached, there is a sudden phase shift (think freezing water). It wouldn't have mattered if all jewish scientists had emigrated to Russia, the english language was poised to take over in any case.

    Paai

  65. German Ancestry by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You will not believe how many germans fugitives in the west after wwii claimed to be Poles. I know two from different families. Many more so-called Poles, also in Poland itself, do not even know that their fathers or grandfathers fought in the Wehrmacht. In Poland, graves were destroyed, children taken away from their parents and given to Polish couples, speaking german was punished by death.

    paai

  66. Santa Ana's losing war by billstewart · · Score: 1

    Mexican history considers Santa Ana to be one of their least competent generals over the years. But after he lost, the US rejected his initial peace proposals, which would not only have given the invaders the land they got, but also the states of Sonora and Chihuahua. While they were officially Mexican territory at the time, the local Native Americans had other opinions about whether they were interested in being run by the Spanish or Mexican colonialists, and groups like the Apaches and Comanches wouldn't have been much more cooperative to the US than they were to the Mexicans.

    --

    Bill Stewart
    New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
    1. Re:Santa Ana's losing war by bobbied · · Score: 1

      The Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo was signed and ratified by the US senate in 1848. Now if you are talking about the Indian raid problem, I'm not sure exactly how that applies to this discussion about the charge that the USA improperly took land from Mexico or what the USA could have done differently.

      --
      "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
    2. Re:Santa Ana's losing war by billstewart · · Score: 1

      This was the negotiations that led up to the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo; Santa Ana really didn't want to be stuck with the not-really-conquered tribes if he was going to lose the good land north of them.

      --

      Bill Stewart
      New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
  67. Request: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Can we get that "not allowed to teach it to children under ten" rule applied to religion, please?

  68. Re:Because the US was really the only winner of WW by LWATCDR · · Score: 1

    " England the second (thanks to the US who confiscated a large part of her empire)."
    What part of the the old UK Empire did the us confiscate?
    India?
    that is just dumb.

    --
    See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
  69. Re:Because the US was really the only winner of WW by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    hint: what did the US get in return for fifty WWI destroyers...?

  70. Burying the lead by lightbounce · · Score: 1

    "That was also the moment, according to Gordin, when the American scientific establishment started to take over dominance in the world." That one sentence at the end explains it all. English became dominant because the Americans and the British dominated science after WWI. German was the lead language before 1900 because that's when they dominated science. It didn't help that Hitler caused many of Germany's remaining best scientists to emigrate to America and Britain in the '30s.

  71. Re:Because the US was really the only winner of WW by david_thornley · · Score: 1

    The US was a world power before WWI. During WWI, the US had the third largest fleet in the world, a large population, and a large industrial base. The lack of US impact in 1917 was more a matter of deployment than force. The only reason for not considering the US a Great Power would have been the US isolationism of the period.

    --
    "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
  72. And there are still people asking why? by Optali · · Score: 2

    STUPIDEST QUESTION EVER.

    I am native German speaker and I love my language (I speak Dutch too, but German and Spanish are both my mother languages)

    But, we have 4 declinations and 8 verb tenses. Yes, there are many other languages with this many declinations (Icelandic), but we decline almost everything except the punctuation marks and to make matters worse we have two types of declination, the strong and the weak. Most of the people I know who have a Good command of German struggle with this concept and have a very difficult time placing the articles (three genres, four declinations, two cases). For the natives this is obvious and innate and misplacement sounds pretty hilarious.

    And this is not all: Our language is agglutinant, so that we can make up extremely large words AND we put sometimes extra letters in between (Fugenzeichen). We have our weird ß (not a beta!) that we use in certain words for purely grammatical reasons. Our phonetic is not difficult except a few sounds like the ch in "ich" who are impossible for most non-Germans (add "r" rolled in different ways who seems to produce real nightmare to English speakers). And we place commas almost in every part of the sentences: Sometimes you can't tell nomal text from a CSV... LOL (I'm joking but it's almost this bad)

    And last but not least there is another extremely funny characteristic of German: We use separable verbs. While this is common in many Germanic languages, our closest relatives like Dutch prefer to keep things at bay and the phrases are normally build in such a way that the phrases don't run out of control. Unlike in German, were it is absolutely normal to put the first part of a separable verb at the beginning of a phrase (in second place after the subject, normally) and then go on for a whole paragraph worth of text until you get the final part of the verb at the end of the phrase (which can easily be a quarter of a page, and no, I'm not joking). The problem is that you will only know the meaning of the whole phrase once you have read / heard the dreaded final part. We natives have a feeling for that and we can infer the final part out of the context and we are used to read whole blocks of texts in one go... but for non-natives this is a serious issue that makes reading slower and this is specially important when you are trying to figure out what a scientific texts says.

    But why am I telling you all this? Somebody explained this already better than me: Mark Twain nailed it in his Essay "The Awful German Language" (http://www.crossmyt.com/hc/linghebr/awfgrmlg.html#x1) and despite his funny tone he does a very good job at explaining how my mother tongue works.

    Take English on the other hand: I agree it has it's drawbacks, for instance the chaotic phonetic which makes it difficult to know the spelling of a word you don't know even for a native. But the advantages are way more than the drawbacks. It is much more tolerant to faults so that mildly wrong written text can still be understood while in German it could destroy the whole readability of a phrase.

    Not for nothing English is also the language of the Arts... and don't take this wrong: It is not because of the cultural hegemony of the USA during the first part of the XX century: Had English not been fantastically suited for poetry and rhymes it would not have triumphed.

    As a final note I would however make you aware that German is the Second most spoke language in Europe, as both, mother tongue and second language: Besides of Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Luxemburg and Lichtenstein there are German speaking minorities in Italy, Belgium and some East European countries trumping over French not only in the number of native speakers but also in he number of non native who learn or use German for various purposes.

    --
    -- 29A the number of the Beast
  73. Re:Because the US was really the only winner of WW by LWATCDR · · Score: 1

    Not nations that is for sure. The US got some bases but except for the one in Bermuda, the Bahamas, and some in Canada the US returned them all in 1949.
    The problem is that you do not seem to know what the words confiscated means since the UK leased the US those bases, or large since the those bases where in no way a large part of the British Empire, and you really don't seem to have much of an knowledge of history.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D...
    Yep that statement was just dumb since no part of the British Empire became part of the US.

    --
    See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
  74. Re:How English Beat German As the Language of Scie by dave420 · · Score: 1

    You think units should be difficult to convert between, and that English is somehow American. You're not too bright, are you?

  75. Re:How English Beat German As the Language of Scie by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Except for the Germans and Austria, the Axis and the Central Powers were *radically* different in composition; moreover, the character of the way Germany and Austria were governed were also significantly different -- in particular, the old power elites were heavily marginalized in Germany.

    Japan allied itself with the Entente Powers in WW I, and made active war against the Germans.

    Italy only fully entered the first world war on the side of the Allies.

    So it wasn't so much a "lull in the fighting" as it was a complete change of opponents for the Allies at the end of the first world war.

    The result of WW I was a collapse of culturally, linguistically and religiously heterogeneous empires into independent nation-states dominated by single linguistic, cultural and religious majorities. WW II in central Europe was almost entirely driven by the question of the power of the dominant group to convert, expel, or exterminate the minorites in its territory. Indeed, much of Potsdam focused on that matter, and there were enormous population migrations in central and eastern Europe after the end of WW II.

    The breakdown of multi-ethnic nation-states continued to provoke outright war in Europe until the end of the 20th century, and continues to be a live political issue in Hungary and its immediate neighbours, in Ukraine, in the Caucasus, and even in the Baltics.