Shift Work Dulls Brain Performance

Work? FRANCE??? Hahahahaa! by Anonymous Coward · 2014-11-04 06:09 · Score: 3, Funny

I know this study is flawed because it involves work and France. They pretty much don't do that over there.

But.... by Anonymous Coward · 2014-11-04 06:11 · Score: 0

It is a fast way of multiplying by powers of 2.

Re:Work? FRANCE??? Hahahahaa! by Anonymous Coward · 2014-11-04 06:17 · Score: 1

And what "work" do Americans do exactly, in an entire nation of bureaucrats?

Methodology? by Njorthbiatr · 2014-11-04 06:17 · Score: 2, Interesting

When did they test these candidates? If you're testing everyone at 8 AM that's going to show a bias for the people just woke up and had their coffee compared to the night shift workers who are getting ready for bed.

Re:Methodology? by xaotikdesigns · 2014-11-04 08:03 · Score: 1

Likewise, what about those of us that find it difficult to fall asleep at a decent hour in order to wake up at five or six in the morning so we can make it in to the office at 8?
You tell me I have to come in at 8 in the morning, and I'll only get five hours of sleep a night. You tell me to come in at noon, and suddenly I'm getting a full nights sleep and able to stay awake and do my job without issue.

--
XDInd
Re:Methodology? by __aaltlg1547 · 2014-11-04 13:10 · Score: 2

Anyone in manufacturing knows more stupid shit happens on 3rd shift than any other. I guess this helps explain why.
It doesn't tell us what to do about it, unfortunately, other than avoid 2nd and 3rd shifts if you can.
Re:Methodology? by Bite+The+Pillow · 2014-11-04 15:05 · Score: 1

Any time someone here asks a question like that, I can usually read the article and prove you stupid. I'm not wasting time doing that. Instead, you tell me what you used to question the methodology.
Was it the summary? did you read the summary and immediately type the first thing that came to mind? Because I bet you did.
Re:Methodology? by Njorthbiatr · 2014-11-04 15:59 · Score: 3, Informative

I read the abstract; the actual article is paywalled, which is why I asked the question.
But thanks for assuming I was criticizing the study when I said nothing of the sort and simply had a question about its methods.
Re:Methodology? by kilodelta · 2014-11-05 02:23 · Score: 1

The same applies for police work. The shifts go 07:30-15:30, then to 23:00 to 07:00. All the interesting antics happen on the last two shifts.

And then watching your district commander who is a Lieutenant try to twist and swerve to explain crime in the area is priceless.
Re:Methodology? by __aaltlg1547 · 2014-11-05 15:30 · Score: 1

I always imagined some of that was fewer people watching at night, so the gloves are off.

I wonder how long until we realize... by clawsoon · 2014-11-04 06:18 · Score: 3, Insightful

I wonder how long until we realize that shift work is a public health issue, like clean water and vaccination and smoking.

Re:I wonder how long until we realize... by Anonymous Coward · 2014-11-04 06:22 · Score: 0, Insightful

So your solution is to force everyone to work at the same time. Thanks for making rush hour even worse, asshole.
Re:I wonder how long until we realize... by Njorthbiatr · 2014-11-04 06:26 · Score: 1

Well no, but the compensation should certainly be higher.
Re:I wonder how long until we realize... by fustakrakich · 2014-11-04 06:50 · Score: 4, Funny

So your solution is to force everyone to work at the same time.
Yes, everyone should have to work 24 hours a day. Food and rest are for sissies.

--
“He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
Re:I wonder how long until we realize... by K.+S.+Kyosuke · 2014-11-04 08:38 · Score: 1

Well, in the year 1,000,000,000 CE, that would give you roughly six hours of sleep every day. You'll just have to wait a bit.

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Ezekiel 23:20
Re:I wonder how long until we realize... by TWX · 2014-11-04 08:57 · Score: 1

You know, not everyone's peak of work performance happens at the same time.

Mornings are rough for me. I'm adequate in the mornings, but I'm better in the afternoons.

--
Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
Re:I wonder how long until we realize... by Anonymous Coward · 2014-11-04 10:23 · Score: 0

public health is socialism.
People need to take responsibility for their health instead of relying on the government.
Re:I wonder how long until we realize... by roman_mir · 2014-11-04 14:06 · Score: 1

What kind of stupid comment is that? What does it mean to "realize that shift work is a public health issue", what is the purpose of this so called 'realization'?
Are you saying that people shouldn't be allowed to work hours different than whatever you think they should work?
Are you saying that there are no jobs that must be done in hours different than what you think the work hours should be?
Are you saying that people should be paid something different than what they are paid already for different shift work, maybe we should prevent people from being able to do this work by making it prohibitively expensive to pay for it?
What is your comment implying, because it has no meaning and yet it is at '5 Insightful', insightful of what?

--
You can't handle the truth.
Re:I wonder how long until we realize... by Your.Master · 2014-11-04 16:28 · Score: 1

public health is socialism.
That's like saying mass media is feudalism. Or that the flu is capitalism. You're thinking of public healthcare, not public health.
Having established that -- public health is inherently not individual (that's what makes it public) and therefore it literally cannot be an individual responsibility. Calling it an individual responsibility is tantamount to calling for irresponsibility.
That doesn't necessarily mean that government has to do it -- washing your hands is a public health issue that has some government involvement in places like restaurants and also in educating students in schools, but is mostly a cultural thing that is enforced through parental teachings, shunning, etc.. Sometimes governments jumpstart these things -- seatbelt wearing is just an unconscious fact of life for most people my age and younger, but it's also an enforced law and that's because after seatbelts were available people still didn't wear them. Seatbelts are thus mostly a non-governmental issue now (at least in the circles I run in), which was a governmental thing in the past. Standard vaccines are basically pushed by government agencies even though most non-crazy people tacitly support these measures.
It's legitimate to question whether this is a public health issue, or whether seatbelt wear was truly public health, or the degree of severity and "public-ness" necessary to warrant government intervention. It's pretty much ideological crazytown to deny that issues of public health exist.
Re:I wonder how long until we realize... by Anonymous Coward · 2014-11-04 22:27 · Score: 0

public roads are socialism. Build your own roads
public education is socialism. Educate your own kids
public water is socialism. Dig your own well
Re: I wonder how long until we realize... by Anonymous Coward · 2014-11-07 06:46 · Score: 0

You're being sarcastic, but it took me a minute to figure that out. I thought you were just commenting on the status quo!

No shit by NotDrWho · 2014-11-04 06:19 · Score: 2

Anyone who has ever done factory work could tell you that. It's brain-numbing. I used to have co-workers who used to talk to themselves and act like schizophrenics after 20 years of it. Fortunately, it was only a temporary college job for me.

--
SJW's don't eliminate discrimination. They just expropriate it for themselves.

Re:No shit by ShaunC · 2014-11-04 07:18 · Score: 4, Insightful

The article, and the actual study which requires a purchase of at least US$30 to view, do not appear to take the nature of the work into account. Shift work doesn't mean factory work or manual labor. Factory work is going to be exhausting no matter what the shift, right? From what I gather, the study is paying attention to the hours worked and not necessarily the work performed.
I spent about 5 years in a mostly nocturnal habit, doing development and sysadmin work remotely from my apartment. I'd wake up around 2 or 3 in the afternoon, shit/shower/shave, spend a couple of hours getting my food and coffee and watching a bit of TV, sit around working on things until around 2 or 3 AM, and then venture off into gaming or Slashdot or Fark or what have you (this was the late 90s and early 2000s) until I went to bed at 8 or 9 AM. Rinse and repeat. I enjoyed this schedule and in fact there's evidence that I thrived on this schedule. Being awake when nobody else is, there are few distractions, I can focus on what needs to be done while the majority of my fellows and users are asleep. Lack of interruption is a treasure.
Then I moved into the enterprise doing development and DBA stuff. Almost 8 years getting up at 6 AM most days, showing up to work tired half the time, having to suck down several cups of coffee prior to being fully awake at all. The story, always the same. Despite any weariness or necessity for caffeine, I still accomplish my best work by far and away prior to lunch, and then attempt to ride the day out until 5:30 hits. The morning is my productive time, after lunch I mostly exist to put out fires, sit in on meetings of lower importance where I'm barely a stakeholder, and plan out the actual work that I'll be doing tomorrow morning. I dislike the schedule because I know that once I get home and the sky grows dark I'll be picking up my second wind and going straight back into a work frame of mind.
My own personal rhythm thrives at night, this has always been true and remains so despite any schedule change you might throw at me. Even with a normal business hours gig in the enterprise, I've still probably done some of my best work from home (after hours but salaried, whatever I accomplish tonight I don't have to fuck with in the office tomorrow) than I've done in the office. I would be, and have been, way more productive if my work schedule was 8:30 PM to 5:30 AM. Was that physically killing me or dulling my mental performance faster than running 8:30 AM to 5:30 PM? It sure doesn't feel like it.
I wonder if I could parlay my penchant for overnights into some sort of International Ops Lead scenario? I'd love to be awake and cranking around the same time that the offshore teams are doing whatever they do/don't.

--
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Re:No shit by sandytaru · 2014-11-04 07:23 · Score: 1

That actually makes me wonder if they controlled for "type of work" as a variable. It's not called out in the methodology in TFA. Someone who is 3rd shift is already less likely to be in an intellectually stimulating job (did 2nd-3rd shift at a 24 hour call center here for a while. I quit when they stopped letting me study for classes.)

White collar workers may work 12 hour days, but they're at least working 7AM to 7PM.

--
Occasionally living proof of the Ballmer peak.
Re:No shit by fustakrakich · 2014-11-04 07:25 · Score: 1

To keep the brain sharp, give it rich nutrients, some water, and most importantly, lots of light.

--
“He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”
Re:No shit by JeffAtl · 2014-11-04 07:33 · Score: 1

I used to feel this way about myself as well, but then I discovered that I wasn't getting quality sleep or enough of it. Have you tried getting 8 hours sleep?
I think what happens is that night owls tend to not have an alarm, so they can wake up when their body is ready. When the night owls have to wake up early, they still try to stay up past midnight and end up getting startled out of a deep sleep 5 hours later.
A plan to try is to go to bed at least 8 1/2 hours before the time your alarm is set. That gives your body a chance to wake up on its own rather than being startled by the alarm clock and spending the rest of day in a groggy state.
Re:No shit by Anonymous Coward · 2014-11-04 07:48 · Score: 0

Open up yer skull, let the light shine in.
Re:No shit by Pentium100 · 2014-11-04 08:03 · Score: 2

I am similar to the OP in that sunlight makes me want to sleep. I am better at night, but my work is standard 8-17, so I can do stuff at night only on weekends and vacations. The weird thing to me is that I can be sleepy all day, but when the night comes I no longer want to sleep.
However, I have solved the waking up problem, at least for me. I have created a playlist of a few songs (~30min in length) that starts out slow and quiet and finishes with a louder song. I set it to auto play 25 minutes before I need to wake up. The "turn off" button is 4 meters away from my bed. I sometimes wake up when song #1 is playing, sometimes during song #2 and sometimes on the second-to-last song, but I manage to wake up and not be tired or need coffee (I do not like coffee, I drink a lot of tea though). I guess the 25 minutes of music manages to "catch" me in a sleep phase from which it is easy to wake up.
Also, to accommodate my wish to stay up later and need to wake up early I get a 3 hour nap after coming from work (18:00-21:00), then stay up until 00:00, go to sleep and wake up at 05:45. During vacations I go to sleep at 14:00 and wake up at 22:00.
Re:No shit by Anonymous Coward · 2014-11-04 08:07 · Score: 0

I used to feel this way about myself as well, but then I discovered that I wasn't getting quality sleep or enough of it. Have you tried getting 8 hours sleep?
I think what happens is that night owls tend to not have an alarm, so they can wake up when their body is ready. When the night owls have to wake up early, they still try to stay up past midnight and end up getting startled out of a deep sleep 5 hours later.
A plan to try is to go to bed at least 8 1/2 hours before the time your alarm is set. That gives your body a chance to wake up on its own rather than being startled by the alarm clock and spending the rest of day in a groggy state.
The problem, one that morning people never understand, is that for many it is difficult to get your body to fall asleep at a time when it doesn't want to. I could very well go to bed at 9pm but unless utterly exhausted I'll just lie there awake until around 11-ish. Anyone who says "just go to bed earlier" is one of those uncommon folk who can do shift work easily because they have no real sleep rhythm in the first place.
Re:No shit by Aighearach · 2014-11-04 08:14 · Score: 1

I did the same schedule when I was in my 20s, for about 5 years, and worked great the first few years, but as I got older it just stopped working and I started turning into a zombie. My opinion, either it takes years to cause the negative effects, or else youths have some natural protection. I certainly did thrive at first being able to work whatever hours I preferred, but eventually I came to prefer more normal hours.
"I used to feel this way" seems to be the norm.
I stopped using alarms years ago, and after getting used to it, I wake up when I need to; even if I'm waking up after 5 hrs to go fishing. Being jolted by the alarm has a real cost, waking up naturally, even after reduced sleep, doesn't leave the same grogginess.
Re:No shit by K.+S.+Kyosuke · 2014-11-04 08:46 · Score: 1

There's at least one possible explanation: you had no basis for comparison as an individual and you didn't notice it happening. What if your brain performance were better today had it not been for that kind of work schedule? How would you measure yourself against a hypothetical scenario? Plus, there's the fact that these studies cover averages. Nobody is saying that you can't be different, but the average worker being hired doesn't come with a measured night shift brain performance degeneration coefficient.

--
Ezekiel 23:20
Re:No shit by K.+S.+Kyosuke · 2014-11-04 08:48 · Score: 1

The "turn off" button is 4 meters away from my bed.
You're lucky if that's all it takes for you. I resigned on using alarm clocks after I put three of them in highly elevated positions (inaccessible without at least a chair), and then woke up late, with all three of them under my pillow.

--
Ezekiel 23:20
Re:No shit by Anonymous Coward · 2014-11-04 08:57 · Score: 0

No, that's not what happens. Us night owls have skewed circadian rhythms. Meaning we don't get tired at night like other people do. We get tired in the early morning or later. There are various reasons why this happens. (To understand them better look into circadian rhythm disorders such as DSPS. It sounds like the GP has a form of DSPS) Asking us to go to bed at 11pm is like asking a normal person to go to bed a 2pm then wake up at 10pm. That person will feel like crap because their body wasn't prepared for sleep at that time. They may have been unconscious, but their body wasn't going through all the self-healing/cleaning sleep processes like it should have been. When they wake up they're going to feel tired because 10pm is when their body wants to go to sleep. All their organs and hormones will shift into sleep mode and the person will have to fight to stay awake. Their previous sleep wasn't restorative.
When you guys force us night owls to get up at 7am, our bodies are only in sleep mode from maybe 4-7am. For us, it doesn't matter if we force ourselves to sleep at midnight or go to bed at 4am. We still get the same amount of quality sleep, only between 4-7 because 4am is when our bodies become ready for and expect sleep. We feel just as groggy waking up when going to bed at 12am or 4am, so we might as well stay up until 4am to get more work done.
For those of us with strict circadian rhythms that don't change well, it sucks. It sucks big time (every cell in your body has a circadian rhythm, pray they stay in sync or even sleeping during your normal hours isn't good enough for all of you. You're always tired all of the time and never get fully restorative sleep). We lose jobs because of it and end up unemployed because managers are stupid, forcing people to work bad hours. Shift workers get slack, 9-5pm is shift work for us but we we're seen as super lazy coming in at 10am and fired at 11am, even if we were staying until 9pm. For those of us with more flexible rhythms, we take drugs (caffeine) to make it though the worse bits. Caffeine masks the feeling of sleepiness, but not it's physical effects. Anyone drinking coffee to feel better anytime during the day didn't get proper sleep and isn't at their best. I'm sickened about how much our culture prides itself on poor sleep and damaging yourself. Bragging about how much coffee you drink is like bragging about how many needles you can stick into your arm. Those aren't good things
I'm graduating soon and am looking for a job. I'm avoiding every company that brags about the quality of it's coffee and energy drinks. Their work/life balance ages and kills you faster than the non-coffee addicted companies and their employees are less productive and more irritable.
Re:No shit by ultranova · 2014-11-04 09:19 · Score: 1

Factory work is going to be exhausting no matter what the shift, right?

Why would it be? The whole idea of a factory is to have enough volume of production that investing in machines becomes profitable. It's not a Wheel of Pain.
Obviously, incompetent management can turn any workplace into a Hell on Earth, but that's a separate issue.

--
Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.
Re:No shit by JeffAtl · 2014-11-04 10:01 · Score: 1

I fully understand as I was a night owl for most of my life. I was able to transition to functioning in the morning by forcing myself to get up early every morning - including weekends. It's really tough for the first few days or weeks, but my body eventually adjusted by feeling tired earlier in the evening.
The biggest thing for me was to really tone down any physical or mental activity a few hours before I wanted to sleep. I used to workout in the afternoons, but I switched that to morning before work. I'm not a gamer, but games before bed would need to go too.
It's also really important not fight through a feeling of sleepiness if it comes earlier in the evening.
Re:No shit by sysrammer · 2014-11-04 10:54 · Score: 1

"A plan to try is to go to bed at least 8 1/2 hours before the time your alarm is set"
'Tis a good plan. Tends not to work for people with a shifted diurnal pattern.

--
His ignorance covered the whole earth like a blanket, and there was hardly a hole in it anywhere. - Mark Twain
Re:No shit by Anonymous Coward · 2014-11-04 11:13 · Score: 0

I fully understand as I was a night owl for most of my life. I was able to transition to functioning in the morning by forcing myself to get up early every morning - including weekends. It's really tough for the first few days or weeks, but my body eventually adjusted by feeling tired earlier in the evening.
The biggest thing for me was to really tone down any physical or mental activity a few hours before I wanted to sleep. I used to workout in the afternoons, but I switched that to morning before work. I'm not a gamer, but games before bed would need to go too.
It's also really important not fight through a feeling of sleepiness if it comes earlier in the evening.
Good for you, but you're one of the lucky ones if that's all it took. Some of us have been trying to adjust for years but still our natural wake-up time is after 9-10am.
Re:No shit by Trax3001BBS · 2014-11-04 11:31 · Score: 1

I'd wake up around 2 or 3 in the afternoon, shit/shower/shave, spend a couple of hours getting my food and coffee and watching a bit of TV, sit around working on things until around 2 or 3 AM, and then venture off into gaming or Slashdot or Fark or what have you (this was the late 90s and early 2000s) until I went to bed at 8 or 9 AM. Rinse and repeat. I enjoyed this schedule and in fact there's evidence that I thrived on this schedule. Being awake when nobody else is, there are few distractions, I can focus on what needs to be done while the majority of my fellows and users are asleep. Lack of interruption is a treasure.
Up until my computer "broke" (Newegging parts for a new one) that was my schedule for close to three years and it also agreed very well with me, no programing strictly gaming.
Re:No shit by Anonymous Coward · 2014-11-04 13:52 · Score: 0

I'm avoiding every company that brags about the quality of it's coffee and energy drinks. Their work/life balance ages and kills you faster than the non-coffee addicted companies and their employees are less productive and more irritable.
You do realize that some people drink coffee(and energy drinks) because they like it, not because they need it to wake up, right? I get plenty of sleep but still enjoy coffee in the morning and would prefer a company that has good coffee so I don't have to bring my own. Just because a company brags about the quality of it's coffee and energy drinks doesn't mean it has a poor work/life balance....
Re:No shit by Bite+The+Pillow · 2014-11-04 15:12 · Score: 1

Shift work does seem to be mostly dull or repetitive. I would expect a study, even if did not make that sort of distinction, to inevitably study that distinction.
If the study did not make some sort of accommodation for the type of work performed, it definitely studies boring, repetitive work compared with less boring, repetitive work.
Re:No shit by JeffAtl · 2014-11-05 01:52 · Score: 1

Yeah, but the number of self diagnosed night owls that suffer from a permanent medical condition is likely very small. More likely, the person's reward centers are adversely conditioned.
Re:No shit by JeffAtl · 2014-11-05 01:56 · Score: 1

It wasn't easy - I unsuccessfully tried for years to make the shift. My biggest problem and the problem that I've observed with most night owls is poor self-discipline when it comes to winding down a few hours before bed.
It's no shock that falling asleep is a problem when a person engages in stimulating activities like gaming or debating on message boards the entire evening.

Correlation/Causation by BenSchuarmer · 2014-11-04 06:21 · Score: 3, Insightful

Maybe people who weren't as mentally sharp had fewer employment options and ended up in jobs with shift work.

Re:Correlation/Causation by jellomizer · 2014-11-04 06:31 · Score: 1

I have seen a lot of sharp people working in factories.
They are smart people, they are just not ambitious.
Getting a College Degree/Certificates/Licences etc... Isn't about intelligence it is about doing the work. Now a lot of this work is not fun or enjoyable. So the people who get these accreditation get it from their own personal ambition, not from actual intelligence.
Sure there is a set of people who have significantly below intelligence who are unable to do work that requires brain power. But people with 1 Sigma below average and all above average, in general can be prepared for jobs that doesn't require shift work.

--
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
Re:Correlation/Causation by xdor · 2014-11-04 07:53 · Score: 1

Exactly.
Re:Correlation/Causation by bluefoxlucid · 2014-11-04 08:14 · Score: 2

The worst offense here is mechanism: the brain is not a muscle, and doesn't get weak and dull through disuse, or strong and sharp through work.
Every study on improving the brain through effort has taken a structure of giving people blunt memory tasks or having them study problem solving skills (i.e. mental math, problem analysis, even home economics). The memory studies show marked improvements; but any study which probes the subjects on thought process discovers they've started chunking or otherwise applying techniques to improve their memory. The other types of studies transfer some sort of skill, such as arithmetic strategies or efficient ways to do your housework, and then show a marked improvement.
In other words: people show improvement when they develop better methods to approach problems. People develop easier methods to handle problems they're exposed to (WELCOME TO TOOL-USING SPECIES!). People in dull shift work have NO REASON to develop more than marginal improvements in working ethic, for there is no return; so they don't use or develop any effective strategies, and so develop habitual dullness of mind.
A human is a special kind of knife which is sharp specifically because it wants to be sharp, and dull when it doesn't care to cut things or doesn't believe it can cut things better by being sharper.

--
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Re:Correlation/Causation by Anonymous Coward · 2014-11-04 09:09 · Score: 0

Some of us like the night. Fuck you Ben for believing we're all stupid and too dumb to get a "real" job. Don't sleep tonight and then see how dull your brain feels for the entire day. Too many shift workers don't get enough sleep. We still have to get groceries, make dentist appointments, call to fix cable bills, etc... during daily hours when we should be asleep or out of the sun (which attempts to reset your body clock to normal hours). Telemarketers, landscapers, and the generally louder noise of the day as well as brighter lights right before getting to sleep degrades daytime quality of sleep. Poor sleep results in long term brain damage. It doesn't cause brain damage, but reduces the brain's ability to heal itself, so the normal damage adds up instead of being cleared away.
Re:Correlation/Causation by BenSchuarmer · 2014-11-04 09:58 · Score: 1

I never said that nobody who does shift work is smart, just that people who aren't smart may be more likely do end up doing shift work than people who are.
Re:Correlation/Causation by bill_mcgonigle · 2014-11-04 10:06 · Score: 1

Maybe people who weren't as mentally sharp had fewer employment options and ended up in jobs with shift work.

The recovery of cognitive functioning after having left shift work took at least 5 years (reversibility).
You might have noticed that if you weren't up all night.

--
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
Re:Correlation/Causation by Anonymous Coward · 2014-11-04 10:41 · Score: 0

You didn't have to say it, you implied it, ya uppity bastard.
Re:Correlation/Causation by Anonymous Coward · 2014-11-07 10:47 · Score: 0

Maybe people who weren't as mentally sharp had fewer employment options and ended up in jobs with shift work.
I seem to remember that the guys keeping track of the Mars rover were on 25 hour cycles (here's a link: http://www.space.com/18381-cur...). This study directly shows that these guys became moronic and thus screwed up their units and hence why the follow up mission crashed into the planet. So, yes: shift work makes you dumb. I've been doing shift work for years and it's turned me into a moron too.

FRANCE?! by Anonymous Coward · 2014-11-04 06:25 · Score: 2, Interesting

France has been "innovating" on work rules based on their pet notions of what is right for a long time.

The "traditional" French baguette is not traditional at all, it was invented less than a century ago because laws about working conditions forbid bakers from baking bread in the wee hours of the morning (swing shift), so they needed to invent a loaf that took less total processing time.

Now, I'm not saying that it wouldn't be nice to live in the French dream world, but (speaking as a scientific atheist) we do need to bear in mind that there is no stress free disease free immortal existence for humans, and that the human condition entails suffering and risk, and I value free will and individualism more highly than the French, because I value a small percentage of the population achieving great things and propelling our species forward more than I value a more pleasant dreary existence for multitudes of undistinguished people. And before you push back on that, remember that I'm not conceding at all that a pleasant dreary existence is the best way to go for the multitude, we need to keep sacrificing ourselves to propel society forward so the picture of the pleasant dreary existence painted in Federation Space can come about.

Many things that cavemen evolved to do probably led to not only dull minds, but caved in skulls, death in childbirth, and child mortality rates of greater than 50% before adulthood, etc. If only they had lived long enough to get all the cancers they were flirting with eating smoked, salted, rotted, etc. foods.

Al that to say, I don't even agree with the metrics they are using for this type of study, and coming out of France we can be certain that it simply reinforces preexisting notions along the lines of "c'est ironique, non?" "c'est l'amour", "c'est la guerre", "c'est la vie" et cetera. LOL French.

I think Lavoisier might have been the last Frenchman who contributed anything of interest.

Re:FRANCE?! by Reason58 · 2014-11-04 09:25 · Score: 1

"child mortality rates of greater than 50% before adulthood"
How do you have child mortality after adulthood?
Re:FRANCE?! by Anonymous Coward · 2014-11-04 16:41 · Score: 0

Nevermind "Many things that cavemen evolved to do probably led to not only dull minds".
If that were truem then why did we evolve to be the smartest species on the planet by a long margin?

Re:Work? FRANCE??? Hahahahaa! by Anonymous Coward · 2014-11-04 06:25 · Score: 1

We blow shit up. And we're damned good at it too.

Am I the only one by Cro+Magnon · 2014-11-04 06:26 · Score: 2

who read the headline as "Shit Work Dulls Brain Performance"?

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Re:Am I the only one by Anonymous Coward · 2014-11-04 06:32 · Score: 0

You must be a shift worker!
Re:Am I the only one by Aighearach · 2014-11-04 08:16 · Score: 1

Cavemen only have two shifts; hunt all day, or forage all day.

Lack of sleep, not shift work by zodar · 2014-11-04 06:27 · Score: 4, Insightful

As someone who used to work a graveyard shift, I know my brain felt dulled not because of the shift, but because I got 5 hours of sleep a night. The world does not recognize the need for people who work graveyard to sleep. I swear the garbage trucks came five days a week back then.

Re:Lack of sleep, not shift work by Anonymous Coward · 2014-11-04 06:42 · Score: 0

No kidding. I spent close to 2.5 years on night shift and I had to deal with the stupid lawn guys coming by every 5 days at my apartment complex. I was lucky to get a good 6 hours of sleep a day. People have NO CLUE how annoying it is to get a door to door salesman or other person knocking at your door in the middle of your sleep time. The faster we can automate shift jobs the better, then people will be able to sleep.
Re:Lack of sleep, not shift work by Xeleema · 2014-11-04 07:10 · Score: 2

Worked graveyard myself for almost six years & completely agree with day-walker's rude outlook on people who sleep during the day.
Answering the door naked, shotgun over a shoulder helped make sure things got real quiet real fast.

As for automating shift-work - automation breaks.

--
"When I am king, you will be first against the wall..."
Re:Lack of sleep, not shift work by Quirkz · 2014-11-04 07:43 · Score: 1

Did you try putting a sign up on the door or anything? When we had the kiddos we just left a "Ssh! Babies sleeping!" sign on the door for about 9 months, and almost everyone respected it.

--
The Quirkz Handbook of Self-Improvement for People Who Are Already Pretty Okay
Re:Lack of sleep, not shift work by Anonymous Coward · 2014-11-04 07:56 · Score: 0

Also, wear ear plugs, and an eye mask.
Also, you can go the extra mile and pad the walls, door, and windows of your bedroom entirely in foam rubber blocks (the kind normally used as padding for shipping). They absorb sound quite well. They don't look very nice, but presumably your bedroom is for sleeping and you do everything else in other rooms (which still look nice).
Re:Lack of sleep, not shift work by Aighearach · 2014-11-04 08:26 · Score: 1

Jefferson Airplane has a garbage truck sound mixed into some of their songs. That was before digital keyboards; they used a special looped tape effects system. They would work late recording, and then they got woken up by the garbage truck, so they included it in the music. In fact, the Volunteers album and title song was originally Volunteers of Amerika, a take-off of the name of the garbage company, Volunteers of America. (a non-profit that runs garbage service as a fundraiser)
If you're in a city, there are probably going to be various "garbage" (and recycling) trucks every day still. In my area there is more competition than ever, and more service levels to choose from. Plus there are three cans to empty, (plus a 4th small bin for glass) instead of 1. And some companies now let you schedule an "extra" pickup any day, so the truck might come back even off-schedule. And the different companies try to service the same street on different days, because there isn't room for multiple trucks on the same residential street at the same time.

Shit Work Dulls Brain Performance by Anonymous Coward · 2014-11-04 06:27 · Score: 0

That's how i read the topic, and it's true too.

Until who realizes? by oneiros27 · 2014-11-04 06:32 · Score: 1

We've got groups fighting the idea that maybe airborne polution is affecting our environment ... most likely because it affects their corporate profits.

If you say that shift work is hazardous to worker's health, no matter what you do (easiest might be to consider it hazardous, and therefore suitable for hazard pay and/or require some monitoring of the employees), it's going to affect corporate profits and therefore, people are going to fight against it.

I'm guessing that the group likely to study this further will be the military ... you can't have people making bad decisions because they're keeping abnormal shifts when it might affect starting World War 3. For all we know, this might've been a factor in the nuclear cheating scandal ... either the need to cheat on the test (because the folks had gotten stupid after working shifts), or the stupid decision to cheat on the test.

--
Build it, and they will come^Hplain.

Re:Until who realizes? by Charliemopps · 2014-11-04 06:42 · Score: 2

Most people that work 3rd shift in the united states get a shift premium as it is. Depending on the company there's usually an hourly bonus of a few dollars after a certain time of day. Most places I used to work at when I did factory work, it was around 6pm to 8pm to around 6am and you got up to an extra $3 an hour which was no small chunk of change in the 90s. If they didn't offer that, no one wanted the job because it really was awful. It has nothing to do with the time of day or the light... or anything like that. It made your life miserable due to everyone else not doing it. You'd have to modify your bedroom so you could sleep during the day. Who's taking your kids to school? Got a dr appointment? Gotta go when you're normally sleeping. Same with the bank, shopping, everything. Hell, even trying to get gas turned into a problem. There are certainly plenty of 24hr gas stations, but its not all of them and you could be certain the ones that were convenient for you were the ones closed at 4am.
Then there were the problems it caused at work... I was a welder. Run out of gas in the middle of your shift? You're going home. Get injured? You got 1 bleery eyed nurse and a Dr that couldn't do better than the 3rd shift position at a rural clinic. Want to order parts for tomorrows job? You have to leave a note for first shift to call it in because everywheres closed and by the time the orders in, even if it's next day aired, it won't be delivered for 2 days as far as you're concerned because you have to wait 12hrs for the order to get put in and UPS doesn't deliver at midnight.
Re:Until who realizes? by blue9steel · 2014-11-04 07:52 · Score: 2

For all we know, this might've been a factor in the nuclear cheating scandal
That was a promotion system design problem. They were all getting excellent scores but the promotion system was basically linked to perfection. No one is perfect, but when you're strongly motivated you'll find some way to cope. The outcome was inevitable.
Re:Until who realizes? by Aighearach · 2014-11-04 08:07 · Score: 3, Interesting

I remember in the 90s I was on "swing shift" (3-11pm-ish) and we got an extra 17 cents. Lots of people preferred it because they had mornings free during business hours. "Graveyard" shift (11pm-7am) got an extra 91 cents, and "nobody" wanted to do it. Oh, they had people willing; people who were told they were being moved to that shift, and who wanted to keep the job hoping that after a couple years they could switch back. But they had too many new people, production was so much lower they shut it back down.
I'll bet for many manufacturing jobs they could do fine now without more than a few cents extra, because that sector hasn't recovered and isn't projected to.
As far as ordering parts, these days you should be able to do that online and you can have them there by the start of the next shift if your supplier has rush service and starts early. Most parts suppliers start their first shift an hour or two before the companies they service, so that isn't unusual. Day shift can't get parts until the middle of the next day, unless you're at the start of the special delivery route, because they're not going to deliver in between shifts.
As far as appointments and things, you've got it backwards. Day shift has the hardest time, because they have to take time off work to get anything done, and that has a cost for the worker. Workers who constantly ask for time off to run errands are not valued team players. Night shift, if you keep a normal sleep pattern, but just at a different time, then you can set your appointments for after work (evening for you, morning for everybody else) and then sleep afterwards. No problem. Even if you use a lopsided pattern (sleeping immediately after getting off work, which makes for a sucky worker the last few hours of their shift) you still wake up during business hours. Most of the people with this sort of "problem" that I saw were going to the bar at opening (7am) drinking until 9, then sleeping until 6pm, and complaining there was no time they "could get anything done." On a 3 shift schedule it is normally an 8 hr shift, so you have 16 off hours, and 8 of those are business hours. Compare to day shift, who has 16 off hours, none of which are business hours. And if you have a schedule like 10hrs 4 days on, 3 off, then you have at least one whole business day off every week to schedule stuff.

Shift work in general, period by Anonymous Coward · 2014-11-04 06:32 · Score: 0

Routine dulls the mind.

After lunch by Anonymous Coward · 2014-11-04 06:33 · Score: 0

Sure. 90% of Frenchmen are in the bag after lunch. What other result would your expect?

I totally agree by Anonymous Coward · 2014-11-04 06:33 · Score: 0

This is true. I worked for twenty years at a job where I . . . um . . . what was I talking about?

Work Dulls Brain Performance by BenSchuarmer · 2014-11-04 06:37 · Score: 1

no adjective required

Shift Work - Clarification by SixFactor · 2014-11-04 06:37 · Score: 1

"Shift work" covers a wide range of jobs, from repetitive tasks (as in a factory) to technical support (as in a call center). TFA is really more interested in the disruption of the circadian rhythm because of those types of jobs. What would be interesting is if there was some differentiation in that study according to the types of jobs. Would working at a call center result in a different sort of degradation than, say, assembly? The former engages the brain (according to my firstborn, who seems to enjoy it), while the latter, well, I don't know if I could handle something like that for too long.

And having worked night shifts during our refueling (nuclear plant) outages, I can say that it was never dull, with all manner of problems to solve and people to deal with. There's definitely a nice camaraderie that develops on the night shift, so the term "anti-social" didn't quite apply.

--
Science never settles, never rests.

Re:Shift Work - Clarification by Aighearach · 2014-11-04 08:33 · Score: 1

An accurate study would require having the same people working the same job on different shifts, but you'd probably have to hire the people and pay their salary just to get them to do the study. And it would take years, you'd need a few years on each schedule.
Unless some dictatorship decides to order people to participate, nobody is ever going to do a high quality study of this. Just using people in real jobs, there are too many confounders to have a lot of confidence in the causes. Correlation alone might turn up some specific conditions that make it better/worse, but is unlikely to uncover the actual causal relationships.
When I did factory work in the 90s, the graveyard shift were known to be the most social. They had way fewer personal conflicts. They could agree on music. They were most likely to have social events together on days off. Way lower production, too...
Re:Shift Work - Clarification by SixFactor · 2014-11-04 09:39 · Score: 1

"Way lower production, too..."
That's kind of funny (and expected); I had the opposite experience at the plant. Night shift got things done, and done right! Might have had to do with a much smaller "uh-oh" crowd present in the wee hours.
I agree with you about how doing a meaningful study of this would be difficult. Maybe if the setting were say, in mainland China, which has a more compulsory (read: coercive) culture, then perhaps useful data could be obtained.... hmm....{Flame Proofing ON}

--
Science never settles, never rests.

Um... by jtownatpunk.net · 2014-11-04 06:40 · Score: 1, Insightful

Maybe people who couldn't get anything better than "shift work" had duller brains to start with.

Re:Um... by AthanasiusKircher · 2014-11-04 07:59 · Score: 5, Informative

Maybe people who couldn't get anything better than "shift work" had duller brains to start with.
While this is certainly a possibility, even if you took a quick glance at TFA (I know, I know...), you might find out there seems to be more than that:

Those with more than 10 years of shift work under their belts had the same results as someone six and a half years older. The good news is that when people in the study quit shift work, their brains did recover. Even if it took five years.

Why would dumb people "recover" lost brain function if they never had it in the first place?
And once you read that in TFA, it might actually make you want to click on the link to the study itself, where you can discover the methodology in the abstract without even reading the article:

Methods: We conducted a prospective cohort study of 3232 employed and retired workers (participation rate: 76%) who were 32, 42, 52 and 62â...years old at the time of the first measurement (t1, 1996), and who were seen again 5 (t2) and 10 (t3) years later. 1484 of them had shift work experience at baseline (current or past) and 1635 had not.

"Prospective cohort" -- i.e., they had a control group, which they measured periodically. The shift workers did significantly worse....
(Why is it that everyone at Slashdot seems to automatically assume every study is done by idiots who could not possibly foresee their first possible objection? And why do such posts get modded up? There are lots of crap studies out there, but not every obvious objection was unforeseen by most research teams. Sorry for the exaperation, but if you're not even going to bother to RTFA, stop modding idiots up who also haven't.)
Re:Um... by Delicious+Pun · 2014-11-04 08:02 · Score: 1, Flamebait

Ah, so you're a shift worker then?
Re:Um... by buck-yar · 2014-11-04 09:57 · Score: 1

Wow, did you even try and read "the study itself?" Its pay-walled.

Personal Experience by CaptainOfSpray · 2014-11-04 06:41 · Score: 5, Insightful

Three-and-half years of shift work (interesting, well-paid work for a good employer and decent working conditions) did me physical harm that did not wear off for many years after the experience. I felt listless, short on energy and intitative and thinking power, slightly better while on days, but very bad while on nights. That listlessness was still with me for years afterwards.

During those years, I experienced three different shift patterns. Rotating once a week (day, evening, night) was worst - pretty hellish. Rotating once a month was bearable. I once did 4 months straight on nights - to my surprise, that worked OK (physically). At the end, I was back on weekly rotation and couldn't wait to get out.

Shift work wrecks your social life. Your friends never know where you're at, so they don't include you in their plans, and you don't have the energy yourself to organize anything.

--
"Cock Up Your Beaver" does not mean what you think. This sig is intended to clog filters and annoy do-gooders

Re:Personal Experience by DerekLyons · 2014-11-04 07:05 · Score: 1

Shift work wrecks your social life. Your friends never know where you're at, so they don't include you in their plans
I never had a problem with that when I was on shift work... but in the interest of full disclosure this is a Navy town and pretty much everyone has at least a sailor or yardbird or two in their social circle, so dealing with weird schedules is pretty much a part of daily life.
Re:Personal Experience by T.E.D. · 2014-11-04 07:32 · Score: 1

Shift work wrecks your social life.

Only if you are on 2nd shift. Third shift I've found works really well. You go home in the morning and get your 8ish of sleep in, and then you have the whole evening off to do typical "after work" stuff with friends and family, just like everyone else. The only real drawback is that this puts work at the end of your waking hours, instead of the beginning, so you aren't quite as fresh there.
So generally if I find shift work is required, I refuse 2nd and volunteer for 3rd.
Re:Personal Experience by Anonymous Coward · 2014-11-04 08:14 · Score: 0

Shift work wrecks your social life.
Only if you are on 2nd shift. Third shift I've found works really well. You go home in the morning and get your 8ish of sleep in, and then you have the whole evening off to do typical "after work" stuff with friends and family, just like everyone else. The only real drawback is that this puts work at the end of your waking hours, instead of the beginning, so you aren't quite as fresh there.
So generally if I find shift work is required, I refuse 2nd and volunteer for 3rd.
2nd shifter friends can be the most troublesome to coordinate with: when you're having an event they're always working, and when they're having one because it has to be after work for them it doesn't start until nearly midnight and you may very well be too tired from the day to even show up.
Re:Personal Experience by Lemmeoutada+Collecti · 2014-11-04 09:11 · Score: 1

Of course, all of this describes what some of us feel working the day shift. And others feel it just working a steady night shift. I think what needs to be studied is how much working against one's internal clock affects all of these scenarios.

And for the love of $diety, admit that not everyone is a morning person.

--

You can have it fast, accurate, or pretty. Pick any 2.
Re:Personal Experience by Anonymous Coward · 2014-11-04 09:51 · Score: 0

If you become dizzy, disorientated and dull from day-to-day work, you should consider if there's something wrong at your workplace.
Of course not everyone is made the same, but having to shift from day-cycle to night-cycle AND having people and processes depend on you, is pretty stressful and weakening. I'm surprised people do those jobs for so little money actually. They deserve more.
Re:Personal Experience by Anonymous Coward · 2014-11-04 12:31 · Score: 0

I remember a shift worker coming in to our local and trying to get the shift rotation changed. Problem is, she needed the other shift worker's support and she didn't have it.
Poor thing, I remember thinking "this person is going off the deep end and isn't going to last." She looked strung out.
Re:Personal Experience by Anonymous Coward · 2014-11-05 02:31 · Score: 0

I got most of those symptoms from having kids ;-)
Seriously, I'm sure my mental agility has gone down since I had kids. They're sleeping through the night these days, but it's hard to get as much sleep as I used to.
Re:Personal Experience by Reziac · 2014-11-07 02:23 · Score: 1

I know of one grocery chain that deliberately rotates everyone's shifts, so you have a different shift EVERY DAY -- the object is to try to prevent anyone from making it to the 20 year mark, which triggers a big benefits package. Quit before the 20 years are up, and you lose those benefits.

--
~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?

Yeah by Anonymous Coward · 2014-11-04 06:42 · Score: 0

but can you drop acid during the day and have no one notice? Hm? I like the night shift. I like to boogie on the acid high, yeah.

Disagree by DaMattster · 2014-11-04 06:43 · Score: 0

I do shift work here and there and I certainly don't notice my mind dulling. I work actively to keep sharp and continue to learn. Those who stop wanting to use the noodle God gave them, might very well lose cognitive ability.

Re:Disagree by Anonymous Coward · 2014-11-04 07:50 · Score: 0

Of course, a sharper mind might have enabled you to see that a dulling mind would be less capable of evaluating its own sharpness.
Re:Disagree by Aighearach · 2014-11-04 08:39 · Score: 1

I do shift work here and there and I certainly don't notice my mind dulling. I work actively to keep sharp and continue to learn. Those who stop wanting to use the noodle God gave them, might very well lose cognitive ability.
That you don't notice it is not evidence (at all) that it isn't happening. Your noddle only knows it is a noodle, it doesn't know what it would be like to not be itself. You'd need to use an external, objective measurement to even have a valid claim one way or the other.
If you believe your thoughts come from an animated noodle, I can see how it might be hard to imagine that the noddle isn't perfectly designed for whatever worldly work you're toiling in. Otherwise, it wouldn't give you comfort.
Re:Disagree by praxis · 2014-11-04 08:49 · Score: 1

They claim that shift work dulls your brain, not that shift work makes it impossible to counteract that dulling with other stimulation. You claim you actively work to keep sharp and continue to learn and that you see a net positive, they claim that one component (shift work) is a negative component. You can't really compare one component with the sum of multiple components. I'm curious how you'd feel if you were doing creative and interesting work at your peak hours in addition to continuing the active work to keep sharp and continue to learn. That would be a more apropos comparison.

Re:Work? FRANCE??? Hahahahaa! by Anonymous Coward · 2014-11-04 06:52 · Score: 2, Interesting

The general population doesn't even know how to fight. The general population thinks "our troops" are "over there" doing some kind of "stuff" to "protect our freedoms!"

Re:Work? FRANCE??? Hahahahaa! by l0ungeb0y · 2014-11-04 06:57 · Score: 1

Hey now, sipping espresso, chugging beers and striking everytime a bureaucrat or management farts is hard work

Who needs a damn brain? by fustakrakich · 2014-11-04 06:57 · Score: 1

We have Google...

--
“He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”

Re:Who needs a damn brain? by Aighearach · 2014-11-04 08:43 · Score: 1

I can ask google "6 feet in inches" and it tells me, but when I ask "42 noodles in IQ" I get 7 million results, and no conversion.
So your brain doesn't need to be very active anymore, but you still need at least a couple cells to rub together.

Re: what were we measuring again? by Anonymous Coward · 2014-11-04 07:04 · Score: 0

I do shit work all the time and I'm still sart.

Re:Work? FRANCE??? Hahahahaa! by Anonymous Coward · 2014-11-04 07:04 · Score: 0

You know it! The intermix ratio of espresso and beer is the hard part, naturally.

Re: what were we measuring again? by fustakrakich · 2014-11-04 07:08 · Score: 1

Yet you show none of his talent...

--
“He’s not deformed, he’s just drunk!”

Re:Work? FRANCE??? Hahahahaa! by Anonymous Coward · 2014-11-04 07:17 · Score: 4, Interesting

Well... guns anyway. Balls? I'm less convinced.

The history of US warfare is filled with one-sided confilicts, late entries and early pullouts. The modern American talks big but lacks the will to see things through (see the current situation in Iraq... ISIS taunts the US as a recruitment strategy because they know you're not willing to take the kind of casualties necessary to go back in and squash them).

What's the mechanisim by T.E.D. · 2014-11-04 07:48 · Score: 2

This is one in a series of "studies" I've seen saying this. What I don't understand is what the mechanism for causing this effect is supposed to be. It can't be absolute time, because then you'd find people with "normal" hours in certain time zones get this brain damage as well. If its lack of sunlight, then you'd see the same brain damage with people who live very far north, or in areas that don't get much sunlight like the Pacific Northwest and England (we can have fun joking, but its indisputable that lots of the world's smartest people live in these places). If it's changing your sleep patterns that causes the damage, then you'd see the same problem with frequent fliers. The simple solution there is to pick one shift and stick to it, which is decidedly not what I'm seeing suggested.

If it's not sunlight or switching, then there's simply no biological mechanism I can think of that would cause problems simply due to the values of numbers on a piece of machinery that humans invented a few hundred years ago.

I can however think of reasons why lots of people would love to grasp any possible pretense to argue against shift work. One should show much extra scrutiny for any heavily promoted "study" that tells people exactly what they want to hear.

Re:What's the mechanisim by Anonymous Coward · 2014-11-04 19:17 · Score: 0

there's simply no biological mechanism I can think of
Excellent. Since you're a master of understanding the human body please explain to me how to cure my non-24 hour sleep wake syndrome (N24)?
Poor sleep definitely degrades brain performance. That isn't disputed. Shift workers have a lesser quality of sleep than normal workers. There's tons of distractions trying to keep you awake during the day that don't exist at night. Blueish light frequencies, even the tiniest bit from the crack under your door (don't remember the name of the study, but basically any amount has measurable effects) suppresses melatonin production leading to less deep sleep during the day and potential fatigue during the night.
Worse, shifting your sleep patterns too quickly can fracture your body's circadian rhythms. Your mind might be wide awake while your body is too tired to do anything or you can't keep your eyes open yet feel like going for a jog. That quickly reduces your health.
Frequent fliers nap on the planes and keep better in sync with your original rhythms. Shift workers can't do that. You don't have to know the underlying chemical reasons to realize that changing sleep cycles faster than your body can adjust to them leaves you stressed out and sleep deprived. Tomorrow, suddenly start going to bed and waking up 8 hours earlier. Next week swap your AM and PM. Restore your original sleep schedule on the third week. Don't tell me you won't feel like shit at every transition.
Re:What's the mechanisim by Anonymous Coward · 2014-11-04 21:16 · Score: 0

Socialization is proven to be a health factor for our species, it would be no surprise if those on night shifts saw fewer opportunities to socialize and in turn experienced mental deterioration. I'm sure there are a dozen other possibilities though.
Re:What's the mechanisim by Anonymous Coward · 2014-11-05 01:41 · Score: 0

Here are a few things I'd like to see by law.
1. A guarantee off 11 hours off between the end of one shift and the beginning of the next shift for hourly employees.
2. For every 50 hours worked, 1 vacation hour earned. Someone should be netting 5 paid vacation days for every 250 days worked. For hourly and salary workers alike.
3. 50 hours:1 sick pay hour at 80% pay. We could either go the route of doing this through payroll taxes or through the use of insurance companies.
I'd also like to see a negative income tax, but that's another story.

Re:Work? FRANCE??? Hahahahaa! by TheCarp · 2014-11-04 08:34 · Score: 1

Burawhat? Im sorry I don't know, but do you want fries with that or not?

--
"I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"

Of Course... by Headrick · 2014-11-04 08:49 · Score: 1

Of course shit works dull brain performance.

Oh, "shift"...

In France's Defense by Anonymous Coward · 2014-11-04 09:57 · Score: 0, Insightful

They've always been dull in the brains category.

Define "Shift work" by deskjethp · 2014-11-04 09:59 · Score: 1

Day shift, night shift, rotating shifts, double shifts, split shifts... People who work "regular day hours" might have a crappy job, while people who work the night shift get to hang out with all the other cool nightshift people. I work a "shift". 8:30 A.M. - 4:30 P.M. Three problems of said shift are: 1) It is unfathomable that anyone would want to be awake between 4:30 A.M. and 10:00 A.M. 2) The shift is spent sitting at a desk (My most enjoyable job had me running around a sales floor for 6+ hours) 3) It supports the ridiculous notion that people need to conform to a 24 hour day mentality. (Yes, point 3) may contradict with point 1) under certain circumstances.) As long as I accomplish necessary weekly tasks, what difference does it make whether it feels good to cram the necessary hours into a couple of days or spread them out throughout the week? Yes, this would make scheduling a problem for many schedule makers. But: Many non-customer facing paper pushing code writing office type jobs do not necessitate regular scheduling.

Re:Work? FRANCE??? Hahahahaa! by rwa2 · 2014-11-04 10:16 · Score: 1

Huh, huh, huh, thank you, drive through.

I mean, thru

A problem of definitions by Cantankerous+Cur · 2014-11-04 10:44 · Score: 1

The main issue I'm finding here is what do they define as shift work. And dear lord, doesn't anyone else have a problem with the phrasing "antisocial shifts"?

From my perspective, what they actually measured here (or failed to measure) is the effect of having a shift that changes often. I believe that you can work 2nd or 3rd shift and experience relatively few side effects (there was a study about issues with not sleeping when it's dark out but moving on). The real problem is the constant change of sleep pattern. Changing that pattern puts more stress on the body which potentially explains the increased risk of death with daylight savings.

Did anyone else read the title as "Shit work?" by gestalt_n_pepper · 2014-11-04 10:46 · Score: 1

Or was it just me...?

--
Please do not read this sig. Thank you.

I knew it... by Trax3001BBS · 2014-11-04 11:00 · Score: 1

I worked shift work, 40 hours swing shift, then 40 hours graveyard, up to days
(repeat). Graveyard you worked more than 40 hours but it spanned to the next week and so no over
time.

I transferred to days every other year just to avoid a back assed work scheduled,
Truman's wife was claimed to of come up with.

5 days in to the Graveyard shift you asked anybody what day it was and they most often gave a blank stare.

Being inside a room with no view of the outside was a world of florescent lights. which for
green reasons half were off, that lasted around 6 months when they all were turned back on and a bit more sanity as you could see more (I felt).

I figured it would turn one stupid :} as just when you got used to working a shift you switched to a different shift (world).

Re:I knew it... by Trax3001BBS · 2014-11-04 11:22 · Score: 1

). Graveyard you worked more than 40 hours but it spanned to the next week and so no over
time.
7 straight days, at the end you had 5 days off, then day shift which were training days, as the day shift had enough to control the operations.

Shift work? by TechyImmigrant · 2014-11-04 11:53 · Score: 1

I don't know about you, but I feel much better when I shift work onto someone else.

--
I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.

Re:Work? FRANCE??? Hahahahaa! by Anonymous Coward · 2014-11-04 13:30 · Score: 0

thats the problem with strong democracries with many power brokers. To much fickleness. The only time we had the full gumption we were led by a 4th term president. When you power is solidified you can force the issue through. Of course there was less media so local towns were probably easier to control. Now. with the internet? good luck with that.

But maybe its for the best. Maybe we should let those desert dwellers kill themselves.

Been there, done that... by Kittenman · 2014-11-04 14:20 · Score: 1

Spent 3 years or so working as an operator. Fine, good grounding for the support work I'm doing now some thirty years later. And I got 20% shift bonus for doing it.

One thing that lasts - I now have no time for people who say that certain things should be open at certain times of day. Example; don't serve beer/wine until noon. Back when I worked shift, most people's morning was my evening. If I fancy a beer with my dinner at 8 am, so what? I remember hanging around with fellow shift workers 'til 11am, waiting for the pubs to open on the last night...

--
"The greatest lesson in life is to know that even fools are right sometimes" - Winston Churchill

My "me too" anecdote by codeButcher · 2014-11-04 20:36 · Score: 1

Due to some medical problems involving endocrinology, I imagine my body being somewhat more sensitive to hormonal/nutrient changes than the norm. Nothing insurmountable - apart from my chronic medication, the normal rules of eating healthily, exercising, and getting enough sleep seem to do the trick well enough to see me through the normal day-to-day.

A year or two ago I started in a job that required (tele or physical) presence for releases every second week (a lot of people where involved each time, it mostly involved waiting for everyone to do what they do, doing some checks in your own area of responsibility when the time came around). This normally was scheduled to start at 22:00 or 00:00, often it only finished around 06:00 or 07:00. (This was after working a normal 8-5 workday...)

Of course, everyone was given time off for the time spent on releases. But getting home at (say) 7, trying to sleep was nearly impossible for me. In my case I'd sleep maybe an hour or two, then wake up tired and grumpy, and because there was nothing else to do, eventually go back to work to put in a handful of (sluggish) hours. I did feel that I only got back into a fairly normal routine, waking up refreshed and ready, after about a week. Rinse and repeat. Apart from an inability to concentrate sufficiently at work, it also left me listless and tired. My social life suffered, as well as "reading up" I would normally do on subject matter in the evenings to keep up with developments in my field. Not good for work performance, or career in general....

Yeah, imagine a multi-million company thinking that such practices are good w.r.t. their mission critical systems.... (You can imagine what other "innovations" such an organisation can dream up.) I'm glad I'm out of there, money or not.

(I don't envy parents of small babies in this regard, but that is another matter for now.)

While sleep researchers seem to be clear that they still know very little about their subject, the basics of the light/dark cycle (including "blue" and "yellow" light) and its influence on hormones (melatonin, serotonin, ...) seem to be in place. These hormones can have a profound effect on brain function and other health issues. It's a no-brainer, really.

I'm currently trying to uphold a routine (including weekends and holidays) of bedtime around 21:00 or 22:00 at the latest, which allows me to wake up naturally (no alarms) around sunrise. Routine does not go together well with exceptions, which is a bit sucky when you are doing a little evening coding and get into the "flow" and just want to finish one last thing... Might also interfere with some socialising. But on the whole, a healthy sleep routine is benefiting me at least as much as all the healthy eating and exercising combined.

--
Free, as in your money being freed from the confines of your account.

Wasn't this already proven/common knowledge? by Anonymous Coward · 2014-11-04 21:09 · Score: 0

I could've sworn I saw an article years ago that came to the same conclusion, that graveyard shifts severely degrade health?

I did night shift (11pm-7am) for 3 years in an ops control capacity and it definitely affected my health & mental capacities. It's been quite a few years since I went back to 'normal' hours but I'm still recovering from the after effects. I put on 15kg that I'm still struggling to get rid of (and keep off), I go through periods of really bad insomnia and feel tired nearly all the time. Brain-wise I'm pretty much back to normal, but physically the body hasn't recovered.

There's also the social impacts of shift work. You stop going out because you're tired, you eventually find yourself never catching up with friends because when you get home on Saturday morning ready for bed, they're up, well slept and ready to enjoy the weekend. Sure you get extra loading, but after a while the extra money stops being enough of an incentive to watch your health deteriorate. There's a small number of people whose bio-rythmns make them suitable for graveyard shifts, but for most of us it's really detrimental work.

"Shit work" by hoover · 2014-11-05 01:37 · Score: 1

Did anyone else read the headline as "Shit work..."? I think it's high time for a coffee and / or new glasses ;)

--
Ever wondered whats wrong with the world? http://www.ishmael.org/

Does the study cover working an EA shift? by Anonymous Coward · 2014-11-05 05:17 · Score: 0

I wonder what the long term affects are of having worked at EA as a tester, you know, wake up at 8AM, get home at 5AM the next day, repeat 6 days a week mandatory, 7 days a week (voluntary, with great preference by management). All for $10/hr (although I would hope minimum wage increases have improved that?).

Re:Work? FRANCE??? Hahahahaa! by Anonymous Coward · 2014-11-05 07:13 · Score: 0

Correction: The US is not willing to inflict the collateral damage necessary to wipe them out. Not to mention the resulting condemnation in the international community.

Fickleness? You know the US leadership wanted to use nukes in Vietnam, right? The only reason it didn't happen was due again to unacceptable collateral damage in the projections.

Basically, stupid posts like yours illustrate the typical problem of any superpower: Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Sorry your country is irrelevant on the world stage and not capable of projecting power on a global scale. But don't use this feeling of inferiority to attack a world leader.

Re:Work? FRANCE??? Hahahahaa! by JakeBurn · 2014-11-05 08:24 · Score: 1

If by general population you mean people living in the suburbs, then yes, the general population doesn't know how to fight. Most rural areas and inner cities are filled with people that not only can fight, but enjoy it. I would take my 13 yo nephew in a fight with most suburban men. Its also sad that when I see some jackass placing ill conceived stereotypes that apply to so few people that they aren't really even legitimate stereotypes. Nearly everyone I know in my circle of colleagues and family is either educated on our military or has family members in the military and know exactly where our troops are. Care to go into detail where you think all of these ignorant people are? Our military is too politicized for the 'general population' not to know at least where we are fighting. With as many guns and angry people we have here it will be a long while yet before the pussification of our men takes us out of contention in some upcoming war.

Re:Work? FRANCE??? Hahahahaa! by JakeBurn · 2014-11-05 08:33 · Score: 1

We didn't go into Iraq to free them. We didn't go into Iraq to rebuild them. We into Iraq to crush their military force and kill Sadam Hussein. Our mission there ended when that happened and everything after was just our politicians trying to lessen their asshole appearance to the world. And we really couldn't care less about ISIS because its not a problem that directly impacts the USA. When we are asked to, or if they actually work themselves up enough to launch a serious attack against us, we'll happily go thin their numbers with bombs and return home. When you fight an enemy that isn't a standard army and instead hides among the rest of the population, you can never end that enemy without also ending the population as well. We will definitely do that, but not until we hit the threshold of necessary, American deaths to ISIS to whip up our citizens. After Obama's failed presidency, expect a Republican president who will likely take action against them as soon as his poll numbers aren't optimal.

Shift work?? by cwsumner · 2014-11-05 08:51 · Score: 1

I didn't get past the paywall, so I have to ask:
What kind of work are they talking about?

Workers who change schedules more than once a week, like some of the police departments, and try to stay awake both night and day?

Or workers who stay on a night shift perminantly, and get used to the schedule?

That is a -huge- difference. I worked "12 on and 12 off" for six months and was fine after the first week. But they did have "daylight" lights for working.

Re:Work? FRANCE??? Hahahahaa! by Anonymous Coward · 2014-11-11 22:14 · Score: 0

Isn't ISIS a product of CIA ?
The reason US is in Iraq and in the Middle East is OIL.
The moment OIL gets out of US control, and the US Army is there back again, right?

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Shift Work Dulls Brain Performance

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