Windows 10: Charms Bar Removed, No Start Screen For Desktops

jones_supa writes Late last week, Microsoft pushed out a new build (9926) of Windows 10 to those of you who are running the Technical Preview. The latest version comes with many new features, some easily accessible, others bubbling under, but two big changes are now certain: the Charms bar is dead, and Start Screen for large devices is no more. Replacing the Charms bar is the Action Center, which has many of the same shortcuts as the Charms bar, but also has a plethora of other information too. Notifications are now bundled into the Action Center and the shortcuts to individual settings are still easily accessible from this window. The Start Screen is no longer present for desktop users, the options for opening it are gone. Continuum is the future, and it has taken over what the Start Screen initiated with Windows 8.

Comments

Screenshots

[kcwhitta]

Screenshots of more than just the settings would have been nice.

Re:Screenshots

[Anrego]

Indeed. I mean you can find them in google, but you'd think an article on the subject would at least include a screenshot of what it was actually talking about.

Re:Screenshots

[ArmoredDragon]

It's not much to look at, sadly, as the new build brings the start menu more in-lines with Windows 8. Also sadly, along with this change they require you to use Cortana in lieu of the normal start menu search. They replaced the regular WPF start menu with a XAML (metro app) start menu that depends on a bunch of metro stuff to work, and removing Cortana breaks it. There's a hidden registry setting to go back to the one found in previous builds, but I suspect Microsoft will remove it like they did the start menu from Windows 8.

Meanwhile I've found that you can presently "de-metro"ify this build with these three powershell commands:

Set-ItemProperty HKCU:\Software\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Explorer\Advanced -Name "EnableXamlStartMenu" -Value 0 -Type DWord
Get-AppxProvisionedPackage -Online | Remove-AppxProvisionedPackage -Online
Get-AppxPackage | Remove-AppxPackage
logoff # logs you off so you can log back in to see the effect

(The first two lines are actually one line; should be 4 lines total)

After you do that, it very much resembles the Windows 7 start menu. But again, I am doubtful that Microsoft will leave all of this intact for the final release, much as they did with Windows 8. One can only hope, or perhaps fill it in as a big petition in the feedback app (the code above removes that app, so keep that in mind.)

http://i.imgur.com/880f17Q.png

Re: Screenshots

[ModernGeek]

I hate that now we're left with a bunch of icons that don't match each other, as if they used two or zero user interface guidelines to build this thing.

It's like we have two platforms that were smashed together with a sledgehammer, and they're not able to fully separate them. They should talk to the scientists that unboiled the eggâ¦

They either need to redesign all the icons or revert back to the Windows 7 ones. I could live with Windows with those registry changes, I would hope for Microsoft that those be controlled with toggle switches and not removed.

Re: Screenshots

[Anonymous Coward]

as if they used two or zero user interface guidelines to build this thing.

Interface Guidelines?!? This is Windows, man! We don't need no steenking Human Interface Guidelines!!!

Re:Screenshots

[Opportunist]

Damn right, I could be productive, why the heck would I want that in an OS that I have to use at work?

Re:Screenshots

[houghi]

I just bought my first Windows PC since Win95. The first thing I did was download a browser. The second thing i did was install Classic Shell on my 8.1.

That said, I never understood the 'start' button that is used on Linux as well. Why only one button? Luckily under XFCE I am able to have several 'start' buttons. Each one has a few programs that I often start grouped by how I like it. So no whole tree that I need to go past.

Re:Screenshots

[PrimaryConsult]

That's what the quick launch bars are/were for, if you make it small enough it's just another menu. I dunno if it's in Windows 8 because I got so frustrated with the start screen's jarring appearance that I just put shortcuts to everything I run on the desktop, removed the start button and trained myself to never hit the windows key unless I'm using it in a key combination. Even though I eventually installed classic shell, my workflow had been destroyed enough by that nonsense that I haven't bothered to set the rest of that up yet. Thanks Microsoft for sending me almost all the way back to windows 3.1, at least Windows+D is a bit easier than alt+tabbing to program manager...

Re:Screenshots

[meerling]

Agreed.

Re: Screenshots

[jbolden]

Well of course the right way to do that would be to make the new style of icons mandatory. But forcing change through was the Windows 8.0 days. Microsoft chickened out with 8.1 and so now you get the half assed slow movement in a general direction kind of change.

Re:Screenshots

[stooo]

I don't understand your single sentance

Re:Screenshots

[blackomegax]

Like KDE's user-unfriendliness. Seriously, teach the average joe how to configure KDE to emulate Windows 10. I fucking dare you.

Re:Screenshots

[ArmoredDragon]

Dunno I'm just going by Microsoft's own terminology. They tend to refer to "legacy" apps as WPF and metro apps as XAML.

Re:Screenshots

[ArmoredDragon]

The only way I can figure is for each task you want to do, you have to search the Google

That's the way I've always done it with every scripting language (including bash.) Usually the most helpful examples are on stackexchange.

Re:Screenshots

[blackomegax]

That last link looks like it'd be a sharp decent UI style for KDE, but my point was you can't expect a normal user to take stock-KDE and set *that* up from it to get something user-friendly. Stock KDE is a joke in itself but I won't go there since people that *use* kde change the defaults, but it's still like...Driving a stick shift with a twig.

Three-month-old Continuum screenshot

[tepples]

Google Images search for windows 10 continuum brings up images such as this one from this page. It looks like a small chunk of a Windows 8 Start screen and part of a Windows 7 Start menu put together. I'm assuming that the appearance of the new Continuum start menu didn't change when Microsoft removed the option to use full-screen Start screen.

Re:Three-month-old Continuum screenshot

[Adriax]

Different but not horrible. Kinda like when they changed the classic 9x/2000 start menu with XP.
10 is looking decent enough to give a shot.

Re:Three-month-old Continuum screenshot

[Opportunist]

Great, now all they still have to do is replace that right portion with something useful and we might get a GUI again that's usable.

Re:Three-month-old Continuum screenshot

[jones_supa]

Actually Continuum is a feature that switches between windowed desktop and fullscreen mobile modes when you dock or undock your device.

See this demo video.

Re:Three-month-old Continuum screenshot

[JohnFen]

10 is looking decent enough to give a shot.

It's good enough that I won't howl if my employer requires me to start using it. However, there is not a single thing in Windows 10 that I find compelling enough to make me upgrade unless I'm required to. There are some minor performance improvements, but nothing that makes the upgrade a "must-have". All of the new features are things that I will never use and don't care about. And I am very, very nervous about the tighter integration with the cloud.

Re:Three-month-old Continuum screenshot

[hairyfeet]

I'm running it on the weakest system I have ATM, an AMD netbook with an E350 APU, 8GB of RAM (yes I know that is overkill, I scored the RAM on sale crazy cheap) and a 320Gb 5400 RPM drive. I figured that if it ran well on a system this weak it'll run good on anything...the verdict? Even with all the drivers running in compatibility mode it runs BETTER than Win 7 on the same hardware, it even has hardware acceleration for video that is smoother than the Win 7 that came with it!

Anybody whose followed my posts know that I don't talk nice about a version of Windows unless it deserves it, I HATE Windows 8, thought it was a frankentard of an OS, hated everything about Vista except for the cool black theme (which I still use on my Win 7 systems) and think Win 7 is the best OS they've made since XP X64 so when I say Win 10 looks like its gonna be a GREAT OS I don't say that lightly, in fact the only way I see them fucking it up is on the pricing side, the OS itself? its damned good. Takes just a couple minutes to get rid of the social crap (which I can't even get mad at that, lots of people like to be tweeting twits taking social shits) and once I added 8 gadgetpack to get back my CPUMeter and NetworkMeter? I was a happy camper.

And I would just like to say how happy I am to see the death of the "Charms" bar, that thing was retarded! But then again damned near everything about Ballmer's Folly was shit design from the start so the fact that charms was stupid really isn't a surprise. Good riddance to bad rubbish.

Re:Three-month-old Continuum screenshot

[NotDrWho]

I second the nervousness about the cloud, and would like to add my own trepidation about the closer tying of licenses to individual machines and subscription payments.

Seems like since World of Warcraft, every software developer wants me to pay a goddamned subscription fee for SOMETHING. Then when that doesn't work, they want me to go to their store and buy every little update and app for some extra fee.

How about you just sell me your software upfront....I install it....and I use it? Is that too much to ask?

Re:Three-month-old Continuum screenshot

[Anonymous Coward]

How about you just sell me your software upfront....I install it....and I use it? Is that too much to ask?

That is exactly what Microsoft is doing, so what are you whining about?

Re:Three-month-old Continuum screenshot

[meerling]

I'm not thrilled about cloud because it's nothing more than Big Iron with whitewash on it, except this time, it's somebody elses iron.

Re:Three-month-old Continuum screenshot

[blackomegax]

I've got the next gen iteration of your chip, an A4-5000 quad-core Atom-alike. 10 is blazingly fast on it with an SSD. To the point that only gamers and servers will need bigger cpu's like haswell/broadwell to do anything meaningful.

Re:Three-month-old Continuum screenshot

[Just Some Guy]

Why is 8GB overkill? I put at least 16 in anything I have control over.

Re:Three-month-old Continuum screenshot

[rtb61]

I kinda smell an OS that generates internet hits each it time it boots up and continues to do so while it is running. Need all those internet hits and have pretend balmy bing hits to be able to sell advertising. I would have deep concerns about how invasive it is as an OS and how much advertising it will be looking to start to sneaking in.

I would hope that M$ofties does not choose to be idiots and the default is secure and mind your own business and not insecure and invading your privacy. Better make sure some features have to be accepted and turned on twice to emphasize them and most definitely are not required to use your computer, else there will be a big price to pay.

There are better market areas to head off into rather than being douche bags in their advertising market war with google, now is not the time to double down on the stupid and pay attention to customer preferences that are never expressed in bean counter spreadsheets, those pots of gold at the end of the rainbow that turn out to be just full of angry customers.

Re:Three-month-old Continuum screenshot

[unixisc]

Charms bar was what prompted me to leave Windows 8.1 for PC-BSD. I don't plan to replace that on this laptop that I'm working on. I do have a Brother P-touch label maker for which I need Windows, so I'm considering buying the $59 WinBook once Windows 10 is out, and provided Windows 10 runs on that.

One thing though - what's the need to rename 'Control Panel' - a term Windows users are all used to - w/ 'Action Center'? Makes no sense - what actions are we taking that's different from whipping up a browser, or our email, or Word 2016? Why not just leave it as Control Panel, add whatever fancy toys you wanna add there, and let it go.

One more thing I'd like Microsoft to do - give people the option of which UI they wanna use on what - be it Metro on tablets, Metro on desktops, 7 on tablets or 7 on desktops. Maybe have the default setting as 7 on desktops and Metro on tablets, but make it configurable at the 'Action Center'.

Also, are they still asking people to make their hotmail ID their login?

Re:Three-month-old Continuum screenshot

[Billly Gates]

I do not know if I can adjust hairy. I love Aero and the familiarity of Windows 7. I know XP users hate 7 because they too like the feel and know where everything is at for the last decade so why change?

What I worry about is can I still do instantsearch or will Cortana pop up and Bing power options instead of just opening power options to set my sleep mode? I hated this with 8 with a passion.

I need my aero too. Windows 7 is exactly what I tried to do with Vista via hacks like VistaGlaze with all the colors. I want customization. After 8.1 I am afraid of change.

I am downloading 10 as an upgrade on the 7 box I am using now but I have a feeling by tomorrow night I will be putting 7 back on. 8.1 had a tendency to crash on youtube regardless if the video card was an ATI or Nvidia.

Re:Three-month-old Continuum screenshot

[JohnFen]

From 7. I use Windows 8 extensively at work, which is why I never upgraded my personal machines. Yes, there are security improvements, but that's not enough to convince me to take that upgrade.

Re:Three-month-old Continuum screenshot

[Shirley Marquez]

On a desktop or laptop system the appearance DID change. In the previous build, the Start screen (if you used it) looked like the Windows 8 start screen. In the new build you can expand the Start menu to full screen, but it still has the app list along the left side along with tiles to the right, so it's like the Start menu but larger. The app list also looks different; it now has the Windows 8-style Metro/Modern look. I haven't yet tried the new build on a tablet or convertible, so I don't know what you will get there.

Another notable change: you can no longer search for apps by typing at the Start menu or by clicking a Search icon from the Start menu. Instead, you have to click the Search icon that is next to the Start icon and use Cortana to search for your app.

Re:Three-month-old Continuum screenshot

[lsatenstein]

Google Images search for windows 10 continuum brings up images such as this one from this page. It looks like a small chunk of a Windows 8 Start screen and part of a Windows 7 Start menu put together. I'm assuming that the appearance of the new Continuum start menu didn't change when Microsoft removed the option to use full-screen Start screen.

If I compare that to the Gnome 3.14, I think I would prefer Gnome 3.14. with two supported and freely available tweaks.

Re: Three-month-old Continuum screenshot

[kyjellyfish]

I don't have much of a problem paying for a subscription for software like Office or anti-virus protection, where I expect to see feature upgrades, and I decide to switch to another app, I cancel the subscription and move on. But I DO draw the line with having to make a payment every year for my operating system, which in essence makes my OS a utility, like gas or electric. WHEN WILL IT END!!!

Re:Three-month-old Continuum screenshot

[doccus]

Why is 8GB overkill? I put at least 16 in anything I have control over.

Indeed. Can you really have *too much* RAM? Seriously?

Re:Three-month-old Continuum screenshot

[toddestan]

I have to say my experience is the opposite. I'm running the technical preview on much weaker hardware - first generation Core 2 duo machine with 3GB of ram, and Windows 10 is sluggish, occasionally unresponsive, and likes to grind the disk a lot for no apparent reason. I ran Windows 8 on the same hardware, and Windows 8 absolutely flew on it, even before I managed to scrounge up an extra GB of ram. Now, it's likely that the Windows 10 build is not very well optimized at this point, so it's hard to draw conclusions. But I wouldn't call the current Windows 10 release faster than Windows 7 by any means, and certainly not faster than Windows 8 which is noticeably more responsive than 7 is (shame about the UI though...).

Re:Three-month-old Continuum screenshot

[hairyfeet]

You REALLY don't know anything about hardware, do you? the E350 is the first generation of bobcat, AMD's answer to Atom. And while it stomps the Atom that is pretty much ALL that it stomps, with performance around that of a 1.3GHz Celeron dual...and it still runs great!

And as I said I got the RAM stupid cheap, but just FYI just to test I popped it out and popped back in a 2GB stick I had lying in the RAM drawer. Now even though the 2GB ran at 1066 instead of the 1333 my 8GB runs on it STILL ran just fine, it just took a little longer to load. Honestly I don't even know if I can blame that on the memory as I had a little over a GB that was just being used for a cache and when dealing with a 5400 RPM drive instead of an SSD (I'd put in an SSD but this model requires major surgery to get at the drive, I dread the day I need to change it) but the only way to rule out the HDD would be to run a dozen boots and average the thing out and sorry Charlie, you ain't paying me so if it takes more than 10 minutes tough luck.

Re:Three-month-old Continuum screenshot

[hairyfeet]

If you like the A4 you should really try an AM1, you can score a quad core AM1 WITH the board for less than $100 bucks, $70 if you go for the dual (but doubling your CPUs for $30 seems like a no brainer to me) and that is for a system that easily does 1080P with the included HDMI out!

You slap one of those with a cheap SSD and a TB HDD for video storage in a low end "VCR style" case? BAM you got yourself a BADASS HTPC that will not only stream, be a jukebox and media center, you can even play a lot of mainstream games on it, its just crazy how sweet those babies run!

Terrible names

[TWX]

Charms bar? Continuum?

Names used to be fairly intuitive, and even when they weren't completely intuitive their names were derived from their technical function. I'm thinking "context menu", "start menu", "task list", "quick-launch menu", and "system tray".

Now they're just marketing doublespeak.

Re:Terrible names

[jandrese]

Just because open source projects can choose terrible names doesn't mean they have a monopoly on it.

Re:Terrible names

[TWX]

Huh?

Where were we talking about open-source projects?

Re:Terrible names

[Anonymous Coward]

It was a joke, son. Please try to keep up.

Re:Terrible names

[jellomizer]

I don't care what they call it. But I just want the ability to drill down to find my feature.
The Windows 8 Interface, and Office 2007+ Ribbons with its tiles, kills the drill down idea, and gives you a big set of data cluttered in your face.

I am all for a spot for shortcuts and links, where you can put the most used features right at your beck and call. But being the case I use 20% of the features 80% of the time, means I much rather have most of the stuff shoved away from my site, until I need them, and I can use common sense to find out where they are.

Re:Terrible names

[petergriffinismyhero]

Charms bar? Continuum? Names used to be fairly intuitive, and even when they weren't completely intuitive their names were derived from their technical function. I'm thinking "context menu", "start menu", "task list", "quick-launch menu", and "system tray". Now they're just marketing doublespeak.

The Charms Bar describes the quantum state of all the Charm quarks used by your install of Windows 10 (within the bounds of quantum mechanics of course).

Re:Terrible names

[ljw1004]

Well the Charms bar is apparently dead so it no longer matters that its name is terrible.

Apple already came out with "Continuity". So Microsoft's "Continuum" sounds pretty similar. You might just have to knuckle down and live with a new term for seamless transitions between phone+tablet and laptop+desktop devices. Of all the terms they could have chosen, "Continu*" don't seem too bad.

Re:Terrible names

[Peter Simpson]

Charms bar? Continuum? Names used to be fairly intuitive, and even when they weren't completely intuitive their names were derived from their technical function. I'm thinking "context menu", "start menu", "task list", "quick-launch menu", and "system tray". Now they're just marketing doublespeak.

Hey Microsoft!

Pick a UI and stick to it! I'm getting very tired of having to relearn the entire UI whenever you make a new release.

Re:Terrible names

[war4peace]

Slowly, they're closing in the gap from Linux naming conventions :)

Re:Terrible names

[Crashmarik]

Please Incontinent-Wombat and Diarrhea Tapir are fine names for projects.

Re:Terrible names

[Virtucon]

Charms bar? Continuum?

It's the new "Dude, Where's My Car?" Operating system design methodology. You'll have to guys pop up in leather jumpsuits asking if you have your Continuum Transfunctioner? They had thought about using "Chinese Food" as a menu but it would be nested too deeply with infinite "and then" sub-menus.

Re:Terrible names

[CaptainDork]

Try the labeling of quarks.

Re:Terrible names

[Virtucon]

So does that mean every Windows 10 system will include a cat that's either possibly alive or dead? I'm not sure I want a cat in my Desktop system getting fur all over the insides. I wouldn't want a dead cat either because it'd start stinking up the place.

Re:Terrible names

[TWX]

His name wasn't too bad, and worked fine as the owner of the bar on the Promenade...

Re:Terrible names

[PRMan]

Well, then you'll be very happy. Because after upgrading my Windows 7 laptop to Windows 10, all I noticed is that it's faster and the battery lasts longer and it's harder for stupid people to run untrusted stuff from the internet. Other than that, it's pretty similar.

Re:Terrible names

[Opportunist]

Almost. But it's the OS that's alive or dead, you just won't know 'til you try to save your work.

Re:Terrible names

[Anonymous Coward]

This is terribly funny. Someone mod this sublime humor up, it doesn't deserve to be hidden away like a Windows start menu.

Re:Terrible names

[macs4all]

Apple already came out with "Continuity". So Microsoft's "Continuum" sounds pretty similar. You might just have to knuckle down and live with a new term for seamless transitions between phone+tablet and laptop+desktop devices. Of all the terms they could have chosen, "Continu*" don't seem too bad.

But in Apple's case, it was used not to refer to a "contin*" between the "look and feel" of the OS on different devices; but rather an actual, functional, feature (being able to start a document on one device, and then seamlessly (and automagically) transfer it to another class of device.

But that's ok, it has been a LONG time since MS had an "original" thought that didn't didn't actually originate in Cupertino.

Re:Terrible names

[TWX]

I blame the newest distributions and projects. Older project, when the UNIX mentality was still in force, seemed to be named, to an extent, based on what the thing did. Early Linux distributions modeled themselves on commercial UNIX and followed suit for a long time. Also for a long time, code-names for distributions (like Lenny, Squeeze, Sid, etc) were short and simple, and not really necessary to know when there were other terms (unstable, testing, stable) to be used too.

Somehow the use of the code-name as something much more important has happened though, and I'm not entirely sure why. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense and just confuses the point. To an extent I blame Ubuntu, they seem to be pretty bad with it, but a lot of other projects and distros are suffering the same thing.

Re:Terrible names

[Ol Olsoc]

Charms bar? Continuum?

It's the new "Dude, Where's My Car?" Operating system design methodology. You'll have to guys pop up in leather jumpsuits asking if you have your Continuum Transfunctioner? They had thought about using "Chinese Food" as a menu but it would be nested too deeply with infinite "and then" sub-menus.

Silly goose! The continuum Transfunctionator is alway, always, right beside the wobbulator snubber. Anywhere else, and you'll get a data frap that will cause your facebook to splooge.

Makes a hell of a mess on the touchscreen.

Re:Terrible names

[grimmjeeper]

But here's the thing. I'm sure there are a handful of people who don't have anything complex to do on their laptop but like having a keyboard when posting their instafacetwitter drivel but still like to have a portable tablet with a touch screen. However, the whole reason Windows 8 has been such an utter and complete failure is that the business world has people doing real work on real desktops and laptops that need real windows. We're not a bunch of hipster douchebags who have nothing better to do than to break out in bad choreographed dancing at staff meetings. We have work to do. We don't care about transitioning from desktop to anything because there's no reason for us to do it. We don't want a tablet UI infecting our desktop/laptop operating system. We want to get our work done. This absurd attempt to make one operating system fit for both business desktops and consumer electronics devices is a fool's errand. Call it whatever you want, it's a stupid idea. Desktops and work laptops need a desktop OS/UI. Phones and tablets need a mobile OS/UI. Trying to make one OS/UI for the whole market will just ensure that you will fail utterly at both. Microsoft needs to rectify their cranial-rectal inversion and break the two halves into separate products.

Re:Terrible names

[Ol Olsoc]

I don't care what they call it. But I just want the ability to drill down to find my feature.

Yes. I always liked to go through every menu to look at what is there. Drilling is a fine way to do this without actually performing the function. It also tends to allow me to figure out where things are when something new comes up, and I need to find something, because... hey, I know where that menu function is!

Re:Terrible names

[JohnFen]

I absolutely loathe the use of code names. Their just cutesy nonsense that makes it a bigger pain in the ass to figure out exactly what is being discussed.

Re:Terrible names

[Virtucon]

So I won't get the "Big Ass Panties" effect then? I'm disappointed.

Re:Terrible names

[itsenrique]

Im taking a class on Windows 8.1 client administration and its very hard to actually learn this shit for exactly this reason. So many of MS's new names are not even self-descriptive! It's horrible! The MS Press book is written half like a sales pitch. The FOSS world is very far from perfect, but at least the conventions make sense once you learn why they are the way they are. Microsoft's latest round of technologies to lock everything down (a large % of the class) and confuse the shit out of users with marketing gobledeegook! I swear I'd rather be back on 95 than use this latest shit they are serving up (8.1/8), if only there were more viable competitors.

Re:Terrible names

[Minwee]

Shitty names and FOSS go hand-in-hand.

If you can think of another name for the Secure Human Interface Teletype then why don't submit it to the shitty developers? Or make your own shitty fork if you don't want to work with the shitty team. All of the code is right there in the shitty repository.

Re:Terrible names

[meta-monkey]

Particularly when they're all the same thing, with no sense of order. At least Android goes up a letter each time, so you know "KitKat" comes before "Lollipop."

But OS X and the cats? Leopard, Lion, Mountain Lion, fucking Ocelot whatever. All that shit means is I have to go lookup the fucking 10.x number so I know if it'll run on my wife's computer.

Re:Terrible names

[chipschap]

As I say every so often, I'm just so glad I don't have to deal with any of this. I need to actually get something done on my computer, and Linux has served me well for 20 years. To each his own.

Re:Terrible names

[Tablizer]

Names used to be fairly intuitive...

Didn't Windows 95 require clicking the "Start" button to Shut Down? When Go is Stop and Stop is Go, there is no "intuitive". MS has long sucked in that regard.

Their naming is not going to heck in a hand-basket, they already live in heck.

(When Bill Gates dies, St. Peter's gate will have a button that says, "Go To Heaven". Bill will click on that button and end up in Hell. When he complains, his "Start" button design will be pointed out to him.)

Re:Terrible names

[ShaunC]

The first thing that comes to my mind is "charm bracelet," telling me that Windows is now the preferred OS of 10 year old girls. It's still missing the Hello Kitty Explorer, maybe that'll show up in a later preview.

Re:Terrible names

[TWX]

Those commercials for adult charm-bracelets, very-much overpriced mass-produced jewelry that husbands are supposed to purchase so their kids can give it to mom, are what I think of.

That, and the Irish serial killer from one of the Austin Powers movies...

Re:Terrible names

[TWX]

The choice of name of the Start button was poor, but the idea that a single button on one corner of the screen would give the user access to nearly every kind of function on the computer was not a bad one. Apple did it with the Apple menu. When the Start Menu was created, Microsoft's Windows Logo was not obviously a window, it was so stylized, so simply putting the icon by itself on the button wouldn't have helped those doing tech support explain to users how to get to that menu.

Re:Terrible names

[NotDrWho]

I thought the first season of Continuum was pretty good. But the second season was just tedious. Got tired of them constantly resolving storylines with "but then we just changed history again with time travel."

Re:Terrible names

[Em Adespoton]

No, I think it has more to do with Heisenberg.

In other words, you can know that the function to perform some task exists*, or you can know where to find the control that should make it work** -- but knowing either one will cause the other to fail.

Really, Quantum is the reason I hate "modern" UI -- the spatial UI makes sense with human psychology; this contextual stuff means that we change the function of the software just by observing it, and that means we can never memorize it all and just move on.

* while you spend hours looking for it

** only to find that the control actually does something markedly different, even though the tooltip and icon indicate it should do exactly what you want

Re:Terrible names

[omnichad]

Why don't you just admit the woosh and move on?

Re:Terrible names

[Whorhay]

When I read your comment I heard it internally in the voice of ZeFrank nd couldn't stop giggling.

Re:Terrible names

[Ol Olsoc]

So I won't get the "Big Ass Panties" effect then? I'm disappointed.

I called Kim Kardashian to put in a good word for you. Might be able to work something out.

Re:Terrible names

[omnichad]

will include a cat that's either possibly alive or dead?

No, that's Mac OS X (pre-10.9)

Re:Terrible names

[meerling]

Well, you can make an argument for Start and Stop going together without eating up more desktop real estate and for the Stop to be a subsequent option under the Start might be reasonable since you have to start before you can stop.
On the other hand, I prefer to go with the idea that it was just so much better than the second choice on their list, "The Tome of Ignorance and Incomprehensibility" that numerous bots, err, people on the internet suggested. :P

Re:Terrible names

[Tablizer]

You trying to Start something with me? :-)

Call it "Windows" or "System" or "Services" or "Computer" or "Action". And maybe a Windows icon would have been better than "Start". Make a pop-up roll-over to the icon that says "Windows and User System Services and Options" or the like.

Re:Terrible names

[Sir_Eptishous]

I think of the Lucky Charms leprechaun sloshed out of his mind at the local pub!

Re:Terrible names

[Sir_Eptishous]

DS9 allusions for $1000.

Re:Terrible names

[Darinbob]

They've had silly FOSS names for some time now, over a decade. Not just code names for a release but actual daily use programs. Orage, synaptic, avahi, thunar, dolphin, konqueror, etc.

Not like good old classic Unixy names like grep, man, awk, sed, and the like. Everyone know what those meant.

Re:Terrible names

[ArcadeMan]

And to be more specific, the last one really alive was the Snow Leopard.

Re:Terrible names

[radarskiy]

"Drill down" is only effective when you know it exists and where to find it.

For discoverability you need a relatively shallow traversal graph with potentially multiple arcs to any node.

Re:Terrible names

[jandrese]

At least the old Unix names were at least somewhat relevant to their purpose, even if severely shortened to save keystrokes:

grep: Global Regular Expression Print -- Ok, still pretty bizarre sounding if you're not a bearded unixguy
man: Short for MANual. Straightforward.
awk: Beats me. I think it's named after the author's initials or something
sed: Stream EDitor: does what it says, edits streams of characters

Re:Terrible names

[jbolden]

Continuum creates a continuum between desktop (windows 7) and Metro, integrating the two into a single GUI. That names makes sense.

  Charms bar is a play on cntl-c to end where Win-C is used to bring up a bar to switch contexts (search web or change settings). At least the C makes sense.

Re:Terrible names

[Virtucon]

In other words, you can know that the function to perform some task exists*, or you can know where to find the control that should make it work** -- but knowing either one will cause the other to fail.

Really, Quantum is the reason I hate "modern" UI -- the spatial UI makes sense with human psychology; this contextual stuff means that we change the function of the software just by observing it, and that means we can never memorize it all and just move on.

Which is why the UI design should be more straightforward. Contextual order in UI is more troublesome and more difficult to learn, hence trying to avoid nesting menus beyond two layers. In the literal sense there's nothing quantum in a UI and when we're talking Windows, nothing transforming to come close to it. I can only hope that the folks who have brought Start Menu sanity to 8/8.1 produce something that we're used to at least however I could also assume that MSFT has gone out of their way to prevent it. So either I'll have a reasonable Start Menu or I won't but just starting at the screen figuring out where/what to click seems inevitable.

Re:Terrible names

[jbolden]

That's what the Ribbon does, it hides based on context. Which means they can have more items not fewer.

Re:Terrible names

[sjames]

Am I the only one who thout replacing the "charms bar" with the "action center" sounded like a mid-'70s toy company trying to sell a "girl's toy" to boys?

How about selling an OS to adults?

Re:Terrible names

[macs4all]

Pick a UI and stick to it! I'm getting very tired of having to relearn the entire UI whenever you make a new release.

You DO realize who you're talking about, right? MS is almost as bad as Samsung at releasing just any old thing off the engineer's bench and calling it a "product".

Mods: -1 Disagree is NOT a valid Mod. Stop it!

Re:Terrible names

[macs4all]

Apple already came out with "Continuity". So Microsoft's "Continuum" sounds pretty similar. You might just have to knuckle down and live with a new term for seamless transitions between phone+tablet and laptop+desktop devices. Of all the terms they could have chosen, "Continu*" don't seem too bad.

But in Apple's case, it was used not to refer to a "contin*" between the "look and feel" of the OS on different devices; but rather an actual, functional, feature (being able to start a document on one device, and then seamlessly (and automagically) transfer it to another class of device. But that's ok, it has been a LONG time since MS had an "original" thought that didn't didn't actually originate in Cupertino.

I see the MS Shills are out in Moderating Force...

Re:Terrible names

[JohnFen]

But what the ribbon does in practice, at least for me, is to guarantee that I'll spend far too long trying to figure out where in the hell an option actually is.

God, I hate the ribbon.

Re:Terrible names

[disambiguated]

That's just it, products aren't supposed to be released with code names, that's the whole damn point. For decades code names were used just to give the people working on a project something to call it, because coming up with a real product name takes time (market research, trademark search, considering how it sounds in other languages, etc.) Ridiculous names were chosen on purpose so that they wouldn't be mistaken for actual product names. I guess some marketing genius didn't get the memo.

Re:Terrible names

[rock_climbing_guy]

Related Dilbert: http://dilbert.com/strip/1997-...

Re:Terrible names

[TWX]

"Start" is at least short. On my Linux box at work, I renamed the XFCE "Applications Menu" to "Xfce" so that it wouldn't take up unnecessary space on the panel.

I wish they would have named it something like "Fn Menu" for Function Menu- when I did phone support it would have been fun telling users to go to the effin' menu on the bottom left corner of the screen...

Re:Terrible names

[The Wild Norseman]

We're not a bunch of hipster douchebags who have nothing better to do than to break out in bad choreographed dancing at staff meetings.

That's a little harsh, man. I worked all month for that "tribute to Bob Fosse" number.

Re:Terrible names

[Tablizer]

Being short is not much use if it doesn't tell you much and/or is misleading. Might as well call it "Do". Better vague than misleading. Or, just use a Windows logo icon with a roll-over if space is your main concern. I still find the case for "Start" very weak when weighing space versus communication success.

Re:Terrible names

[LinuxIsGarbage]

The choice of name of the Start button was poor, but the idea that a single button on one corner of the screen would give the user access to nearly every kind of function on the computer was not a bad one. Apple did it with the Apple menu. When the Start Menu was created, Microsoft's Windows Logo was not obviously a window, it was so stylized, so simply putting the icon by itself on the button wouldn't have helped those doing tech support explain to users how to get to that menu.

This was actually a problem in Office 2007. There was an Office logo "orb" that many users thought was a decoration. It was replaced with "File" menu / ribbon tab in Office 2010.

Re:Terrible names

[jbolden]

Assuming you aren't vision impaired
if you regularly use Office applications and have that problem do a training video.

Re:Terrible names

[Blaskowicz]

It makes me think of Prue, Piper and Phoebe. I find it confusing there are not pictures of Alyssa Milano in the Charms bar and scenes of three sister witches arguing about trivialities.

Re:Terrible names

[Celarent Darii]

AWK is from the names of the programmers who invented it: Alfred Aho, Peter Weinberger, and Brian Kernighan. It is more of a language interpreter than a program, so the name is more about the language than the interpreter itself. There is a certain tradition of using acronymns for naming languages (LISP, Algol, Perl, Fortran) and using names of people (Pascal, Ada), so AWK combines the two traditions.

One of the best tools ever for disentangling output on the console.

Some of the strange GNU projects still follow this tradition. So GIMP, even it is sometimes criticized for its name, is actually quite logical: GNU Image Manipulation Program. These are usually the most successful.

A lot of the furry creature names are completely useless in my opinion.

Re:Terrible names

[jellomizer]

How does your kernel preference affect the quality of the user interface?
Actually Most Unix designs over exaggerate the problem I have stated.
I want to run a program that does this.
Well I /usr/bin or /usr/sbin/ or /usr/local/bin or /usr/local/sbin I sure hope the command lets me know what the heck the program does.

MWM, FVWM, CDW (the classic interfaces) tended to give you what you can have the rest was via command line in Xterm.
Windows 8 UI stole the Ubuntu method in a lot of ways as well.

You are dealing with these issues, it is that you got use to them and don't realize how bad off you are.

Re:Terrible names

[JohnFen]

Office isn't worth that amount of effort. What I do now is just to avoid using Office whenever possible. Its UI is abominable, with the ribbon being the worst, but not only, offender.

Re:Terrible names

[jbolden]

If you don't need to use Office much or a competitor you aren't the target market.

Re:Terrible names

[JohnFen]

I'm not sure I understand your point. Because I'm not the target market, that means that I am not allowed to point out the ribbon seriously sucks for me? BTW, I am surrounded by people who are the target market and use Office constantly. The majority of them agree with me that the ribbon blows. They're just resigned to its presence and have gotten used to it.

Re:Terrible names

[jbolden]

You were using your personal experience, "I do this X, I do Y". That's not valid because you aren't the target market.

The people who use Office constantly most likely are able to use more features more effectively more often as a result of the ribbon. If they were to look at there 2003 documents and compare them to their 2013 documents they would see a difference. I'm not sure if you are pulling a valid sample or not, your typical Office user doesn't have strong opinions on computer issues and likely is easily led in the conversation towards and opinion depending on who they are speaking with.

Re:Terrible names

[JohnFen]

You were using your personal experience, "I do this X, I do Y". That's not valid because you aren't the target market.

Indeed I was. And it's a completely valid opinion. Microsoft may not care because, as you say, I am probably not their target market, but that has nothing to do with it.

The people who use Office constantly most likely are able to use more features more effectively more often as a result of the ribbon.

This is the sort of thing that Microsoft tends to say, and completely avoids a number of important points. What are you basing this determination on? I could believe the "uses more features" claim -- that can be measured -- but what about the "more effectively" claim? Whenever Microsoft says things like that, they're basing it on stuff like how many keystrokes/mouse clicks it takes to do something. That's a very poor measure of how effective users are, though.

I'm not sure if you are pulling a valid sample or not, your typical Office user doesn't have strong opinions on computer issues

But they tend to have rather strong opinions about the tools that they use, including Office. Just like all other sorts of professionals.

I'll ignore the sneaky little implication that I might be biasing them myself (I'm not, since Office and the ribbon are not things I bring up), but will throw you a bone: it's certainly not a valid sample, because it's only the people I work near. That's a sample that is both too small and too homogenous to be anything near statistically valid.

Re:Terrible names

[mcswell]

I can't find features in the ribbon that I used to use when there were menus, and I could more effectively explore the command space. So if anything, I use fewer features, and less effectively, with the ribbon. I count myself blessed when I get home and can use LibreOffice.

Re:Terrible names

[jbolden]

Microsoft may not care because, as you say, I am probably not their target market, but that has nothing to do with it.

Of course it does. Saying product X doesn't work properly because it doesn't do use case Y for which is was never intended is fallacious. "This wine glass sucks because when I try and use it to hammer nails it shatters" is simply silly.

This is the sort of thing that Microsoft tends to say, and completely avoids a number of important points. What are you basing this determination on? I could believe the "uses more features" claim -- that can be measured -- but what about the "more effectively" claim? Whenever Microsoft says things like that, they're basing it on stuff like how many keystrokes/mouse clicks it takes to do something. That's a very poor measure of how effective users are, though.

The most common testing Microsoft does is giving experienced Office users a series of tasks often using features of Office that they aren't familiar with or necessarily even know exist. For example someone who frequently does PowerPoints may not know about transitions between slides, tell them to change the transition in a presentation. The level of success is then measured.

Prior to the ribbon, using menus, the typical Office user could complete 30% of those tasks successfully. With the first release of the ribbon it doubled and we are in the latest beta at 80%. That's a huge change in effectiveness.

They can also measure based on those tests how many of the tasks the typical users were able to complete immediately i.e. which ones they know how to do before taking the test. That number has gone up as well though not as much. They also look at time to complete simple tasks which is what you are talking about with the mouse clicks. That changes a bit with context sensitivity but the huge drop in effectiveness by that measure was moving away from keyboard shortcuts when people transitioned from WordPerfect.

Re:Terrible names

[jbolden]

What's preventing you from mousing over the ribbon to explore possible commands?

Re:Terrible names

[mcswell]

I did that, I didn't find what I was looking for. (Lots of stuff I have no use for, though: Mailings? How 1980s!)

Re:Terrible names

[jbolden]

I was talking about the exploration issue. If you were looking for something specific why not try help / Google?

Re:Terrible names

[mcswell]

I was replying to the comment that asked why I didn't mouse over the ribbon to explore commands. As for "help", it seems to have gotten much more nebulous than it used to be. I suppose I could google what I want, but that sort of demonstrates how inscrutable the ribbon is; I never had to google to figure out where Word's menu commands were.

Re:Terrible names

[jbolden]

I was replying to the comment that asked why I didn't mouse over the ribbon to explore commands.

OK yeah that's what I meant. If you were just exploring then it works. If you want something specific just Google.

I never had to google to figure out where Word's menu commands were.

You likely are doing stuff that is harder now. There were pretty complex procedures a decade ago for many tasks.

Microsoft would be onto a winner if...

[Viol8]

... they took the Win 7 desktop + the win 8 kernel and called it windows 10. Job done. The days when anyone cared about all these GUI toys like the charms bar/continuum/whatever on a PC is long gone - people have got all that crap on their smartphones now.

Re:Microsoft would be onto a winner if...

[nine-times]

You know, aside from the "Metro" or "Modern" interface, I don't have a problem with Windows 8. It seems like they've addressed that, so I'm not sure what else you're hoping for.

Actually, I do have one other annoyance: their seeming insistence that you have some kind of an Windows web account (outlook.com or whatever) in order to run the OS I understand that they're actually doing something kind of neat with that, but it's pretty annoying that they won't let you skip it during the Windows setup.

Re:Microsoft would be onto a winner if...

[PRMan]

This is EXACTLY what they did. My Windows 7 upgrade never even asked me for a Microsoft Account. And it's running just fine without one.

Re:Microsoft would be onto a winner if...

[Opportunist]

Nobody would mind a better OS, but when the GUI has reached the pinnacle of usefulness, why try to force a change?

To entertain everyone with the ever popular car analogies, a car has a steering wheel, two or three pedals and a dashboard with a more or less common way to display what you want. The designs changed over time, but that's fairly constant. Why? Because it's been tried and proven as useful and intuitive, and people all over the globe know how to deal with this. It works. It works great. You don't see car manufacturers try to come up with, I don't know, a HOTAS setup for cars (well, maybe in some far out "concept" cars to entertain the press, but sure as fuck not in series cars) or try to be "creative" with their user interface. Despite heaps of changes under the hood in the past decades. Quite seriously, cars ain't the same they were 2 decades ago, but the user interface didn't change at all!

And? Do you see people lament and complain how they don't need a new car 'cause it just looks like the old one? Slap on a new paint job and design the exterior differently and they'll go "ohhh shiny!" and buy it.

Same for GUIs. Keep the user experience the same, just round the edges and make it flashy and gadget-y (and PLEASE allow us to disable all the blinkenlights, for those that don't want SHINY but rather go for useful).

Re:Microsoft would be onto a winner if...

[nine-times]

Sounds like you're projecting.

Re:Microsoft would be onto a winner if...

[gstoddart]

their seeming insistence that you have some kind of an Windows web account (outlook.com or whatever) in order to run the OS

I sincerely hope that isn't true, and that they're not going to take the step to force you to sign up for some of their crap.

I should think they'd break some antitrust laws by requiring shit like that.

And I bet they won't allow you to return it if you say "piss off, no I don't want one".

Looks like I better buy my next Windows machine soon, because Windows 10 sounds more and more like a shitpile I won't want.

Re:Microsoft would be onto a winner if...

[ray-auch]

Actually, I do have one other annoyance: their seeming insistence that you have some kind of an Windows web account (outlook.com or whatever) in order to run the OS I understand that they're actually doing something kind of neat with that, but it's pretty annoying that they won't let you skip it during the Windows setup.

You need _an_ email account - nothing more. It doesn't have to be windows or live.com or outlook,.com at all - I use a throwaway on one of the domains I own.

If you want to have things shared across multiple devices (I am finding now that I do - and I suspect it will become more of a requirement not less) you need a common identity, and without a corporate domain, windows is simply doing what most websites and services do and using an email address.

Also, you can stop it requiring email account, even in 10 (tech preview) - simply disconnect the network during installation, it will allow local account - if you think about it there isn't much else it _can_ do...

Re: Microsoft would be onto a winner if...

[Anonymous Coward]

Or you can leave your network plugged in and just use the local account option it provides.

Re:Microsoft would be onto a winner if...

[nine-times]

Are you sure? Because I'm pretty sure that you don't just need an email account, but a Microsoft Live account (or whatever they're calling it now). That Microsoft account doesn't need to include an outlook.com email account, and it can be bound to an email address that's not on a Microsoft domain, but you need to open an actual account for Microsoft services.

And if that's right, that's what annoys me. I wouldn't mind if they set the default to use a Microsoft account. I wouldn't mind if it warned you strenuously, "If you don't set up or use one of these accounts, some Windows features may not work." I just don't like being forced to have an active online account with someone in order to install an operating system.

Re:Microsoft would be onto a winner if...

[KlomDark]

You don't need a Windows account to install it, but you have to be firm with it. It asks two or three times and if you keep saying No, it will eventually give up and keep installing.

Re:Microsoft would be onto a winner if...

[nine-times]

I tried installing Windows 8.1 a couple weeks ago, and I spent 20 minutes looking for a way to get it to let me install without a Microsoft account, and couldn't find one. I found a way to get it to let you set up a new account, once the install is finished, without a Microsoft account, and that's the best I could do. Even that wasn't easy.

But I tried going through each step carefully, looking for any button I might have missed, and there just wasn't anything. It hit a certain point, and it would not let me proceed without an account.

Re:Microsoft would be onto a winner if...

[Anonymous Coward]

It's a sneaky option, because it isn't what is labeled. You click the button that says "Create an Account", and then on the next screen there is a button to "Sign in without a Microsoft account" (don't fill in any of the information above the button). Screenshots here: https://superuser.com/question...

Re:Microsoft would be onto a winner if...

[meerling]

So, are you arguing against using something that's perfect, or are you attempting to type sarcastically to indicate that a plutocracy is about as capable of creating anything useful, much less perfect, as a dog is of balancing the national budget?

You know, we really need a sarcasm font or some other means to obviously indicate sarcasm. I'd love to say we can usually get it from the basic context of the text, but damn, have you talked to some of these people out there? It's amazing how many of them cling to bizarre concepts that they try to foist on people as being real that nobody else would even consider. For one well known example, though not relevant to UIs or MS, the world is only 6000 years old. Screw that, I've held man made objects a lot older than that!

Re:Microsoft would be onto a winner if...

[meerling]

Can't be, his bulb burned out years ago. :P

Re:Microsoft would be onto a winner if...

[Sir_Eptishous]

Exactly.
I've often wondered why they try to reinvent the wheel with things like a gui, etc;

It would be like "we just implemented the new dinner fork. You're going to love it! It's shaped like a flower petal attacked to a crowbar. Our marketing and eating interface people tell me it's great!"

Re:Microsoft would be onto a winner if...

[Sir_Eptishous]

That was the experience I had also. As soon as it started trying to force me down that road I just read about other peoples ways of getting around it, and found that other(hidden) option.

Re:Microsoft would be onto a winner if...

[Darinbob]

You can skip it, it's just clear at first glance how to do so. This feature convinced me that the primary goal for Windows 8 was to push their store, they want a piece of the pie that Apple was getting with their store (which no one on the mac would ever have dreamed of using at the time). Consider that even after installing without getting their Microsoft account, that some apps still want to use it. Ie, Mail refuses to work without also giving your Microsoft account in addition to your real mail account, you can not download any free apps without the account (though you can get the free 8.1 upgrade w/o out it).

Re:Microsoft would be onto a winner if...

[jbolden]

What would be the upside of them letting you skip it? They want to provide web services they need an account. The same way as you needed a mouse in older versions.

Re:Microsoft would be onto a winner if...

[mattventura]

Last time I installed it (about a month ago), there was a button at the bottom to use a local account without having to jump through any hoops. Of course, being MS, it wasn't labeled "Use a local account" or even anything seemingly related.

Re:Microsoft would be onto a winner if...

[gbjbaanb]

those pesky shareholders are going to get their wish - only instead of Windows 11, it'll be various bits of cloud enabled functionality (for only a small monthly subscription, of course).

Re:Microsoft would be onto a winner if...

[Chas]

1) The file: open, save, close is really designed around a dual floppy paradigm. It makes no sense at all with SSD hardware.

What would make sense? You still open files. You still save them. And you still need to close them (or have some means of releasing locks on them so that they can be moved/copied/backed up/etc).

2) As the number of system services require notification increase integrated notification handling becomes key

This is, essentially, what an idea "Event Viewer" should be doing.

3) As device types become much more variable (ranging from a watch to a 55+" TV) graphics need to switch more readily

You're mistaking form-factor for something that actually matters.

When you're talking about a 55" TV, you're talking about what? SD Widescreen? HD? SHD? 4K? What? Resolution's the issue, not the device itself.

And the answer isn't necessarily "waste more space so stuff remains clickable on high-res or touchscreens"

4) As input devices became more variable applications needed to take better advantage of them

So Microsoft and application developers should be building in NATIVE SUPPORT for my left-right testicle-twitch control unit?
And my retrofitted Atari Paddle controller should be AWESOME in Excel right?

Face it. Standard desktop is 1-3 monitors, a keyboard, directional controller (mouse or mouse simulant (rollerball, touchpad, or joystick)), speakers and a microphone.

If Microsoft wants to give the OPTION for new interfaces, great!
But forcing everyone (including enterprise partners, where retaining costs MONEY), over to a new UI paradigm when there was nothing intrinsically wrong with the old one, is Just Fucking Stupid.

There are basically NO functionality enhancements added to Windows 8 that required such a drastic UI revamp for desktop users. And there was DEFNITELY no reason behind applying that crap to Server 2012!
I've also used Win8 as a tablet interface. It works fairly nicely. But I STILL don't want it replacing my desktop UI!

Re:Microsoft would be onto a winner if...

[JohnFen]

You need _an_ email account - nothing more.

Which is terrible. I shouldn't have to provide an email account (or any personal or contact information at all) in order to use an operating system.

Re:Microsoft would be onto a winner if...

[Opportunist]

New technology will come and add to it, that's a given. But do you really think throwing out what we used for ages is a good idea? Can you point me to a new input medium aside of keyboard and mouse that offers better control in a desktop environment? And no, I don't give a shit about how great the new crap works on tablets and phones. I want a DESKTOP operating system. If something else works better on a tablet, do something else on a tablet. Simple as that. Even Apple was smart enough to know that one size fits all works in operating systems about as well as it does with underwear.

Re:Microsoft would be onto a winner if...

[bloodhawk]

Most of the improvements in win 10 are actually in the kernel and security as well as DX 12. just that the general user community focus on the UI, not MS.

Re:Microsoft would be onto a winner if...

[thegarbz]

Nobody would mind a better OS, but when the GUI has reached the pinnacle of usefulness, why try to force a change?

Your entire point revolves around the idea that the UI has reached the pinnacle of usefulness. I disagree, but I understand why you may not. I assume you use your computer sitting down with a mouse and keyboard?

I use mine like that as well. I also fold my keyboard away and then touch the screen. Sometimes I write on it with a pen. Windows 7 was unusable in this scenario. Windows 8 was woeful. Windows 8.1 was a significant improvement.

Your car analogy assumes that the user will keep using the car the same way and that the vendor is changing the rules. That is not the case. How many motorcycles have you seen with a steering wheel and 3 pedals for control?

The idea of the computer is changing. That change is largely driven by touch screens. For touch screens the UI needs to change. A lot of elements of windows 7 make the UI difficult to use including small touch targets, no gestures, no ability to use it without a keyboard, the inability to detect if the screen was being touched with a tip of a pen or the hand holding the pen etc.

Have we reached some pinnacle now? Heck no, it's a major work in progress. But not everything is a case of change for change sake. This is Microsoft responding to users replacing PCs with tablets, not Microsoft driving (because lets face it they are pretty damn bad at that too).

Re:Microsoft would be onto a winner if...

[thegarbz]

... they took the Win 7 desktop + the win 8 kernel and called it windows 10. Job done.

Spoken like someone who's never used a computer with a touch screen let alone a convertible tablet.
No job would not be done there. Windows 7 is borderline unusable in that scenario, a scenario that is becoming increasingly popular as schools and workplaces are rolling out tablet based devices.

Re:Microsoft would be onto a winner if...

[jbolden]

Can you point me to a new input medium aside of keyboard and mouse that offers better control in a desktop environment?

Yes the digitizing pallet. That's been used by artists for a long time. It is also particularly important for people who need to operate laptops one handed, like workers who are standing.

I want a DESKTOP operating system. If something else works better on a tablet, do something else on a tablet. Simple as that. Even Apple was smart enough to know that one size fits all works in operating systems about as well as it does with underwear.

Microsoft has always believed in ubiquitous computing. That people want to run the same applications in different environments and not buy their applications over and over and over. It may be that Apple is right that people do want to do that, but I have trouble believing the same people who whine constantly about how much Windows upgrades cost really want to pay 4x over for the software.

Re:Microsoft would be onto a winner if...

[LinuxIsGarbage]

To entertain everyone with the ever popular car analogies, a car has a steering wheel, two or three pedals and a dashboard with a more or less common way to display what you want. The designs changed over time, but that's fairly constant. Why? Because it's been tried and proven as useful and intuitive, and people all over the globe know how to deal with this. It works. It works great. You don't see car manufacturers try to come up with, I don't know, a HOTAS setup for cars. . .

No. You do see them doing that. HVAC gets frigged up at a moment's notice. In my opinion, the ideal car HVAC control is three knobs, and three buttons: Fan, Hot/cold mixer (not thermostat), vent direction (face, floor, defrost); A/C, Rear defrost, recirc. Very simple to operate. Crank everything full clockwise for max defrost power.

On my circa 2010 Ford they removed the third knob (vent direction) and replaced it with a wall of buttons. So it isn't immediately intuitive by feel if it's on defrost, or floor. If you press the button twice it will go back to what it was before. What value does any of this functionality give?

"Automatic climate control" has been around for a while. I find it doesn't balance fan vs. temperature the same way I would. Sometimes in very humid weather I want max CFM of temperate air. I have to override the "automatic" system, defeating the purpose.

Now there's completely non-tactile, touch screen HVAC systems where you have to compete with the radio to control HVAC. This isn't just high end luxury, but moderately priced mid sized sedans. More and more in these configurations I notice there's a one hard-key shortcut to max A/C, and max defrost (crucial if your window starts fogging or icing over while driving), so they admit they are needlessly complex to operate while moving.

And the old standby: The cable operated parking / emergency brake has given way to an electronic switch. And in most cars I've had, when the power locks are hit, there's still a manual switch that can be operated. That seems gone now too.

Re:Microsoft would be onto a winner if...

[Blaskowicz]

The web applications I use have a "save" button, "save preferences", "send", "submit"

Re:Microsoft would be onto a winner if...

[mattventura]

Because "Sign in without a Microsoft account" sounds nothing like "Create a local account". I mean, you're not even signing into anything, you're creating an account.

Re:Microsoft would be onto a winner if...

[dunkelfalke]

Both is not quite a desktop environment, which exactly was the GP's point. Besides, your use cases are a tiny minority.

Re:Microsoft would be onto a winner if...

[jbolden]

People who need to stand and use a interface a tiny minority? Google's estimate on number of computer panels currently in all uses is 10b globally. If even .1% are being used for an extended period of time that's a substantial chunk of the market.

As for artist,s, architects... they come in around 2% of users. More than say developers.

Good! RIP Charms Bar

[Anonymous Coward]

It sounded stupid and it was stupid, an artifact of trying to force desktop computers to have the interface of a mobile device. Please stop this insanity. At work everyone has 17" monitors, at home I have a 22" monitor, and none of them are (or will be) touch screens. There's plenty of room for a real UI.

Re:Good! RIP Charms Bar

[Anonymous Coward]

> At work everyone has 17" monitors

Do you work in 1998?

Re:Good! RIP Charms Bar

[meerling]

I bet they're CRTs as well. ;)

but its worth remembering

[nimbius]

the start menu still contains a mini start screen. George Lucas pulled this shit in the prequels by wedging jar jar binks into the last one, and you know what it has in common? Lucas and Microsoft are doing it as a big "Fuck You" to their respective audiences for refusing to accept what everyone but the author knew sucked. Saying "continuum is the future" is a strange way of saying, "Listening to your fucking customers is a novel approach microsoft is begrudgingly accepting piecemeal after a blinding 2 years of profit loss"

Re:but its worth remembering

[hibiki_r]

Let's be fair to George Lucas: Jar Jar only appeared in the movie so that he could be to blame for making Palpatine emperor. The only way he could have made it better is if Yoda had gone after Jar Jar and chopped him into pieces for voting for a Sith Lord.

Re: Fuck you cocksuckers.

[Anonymous Coward]

Thank you, Mr. Ballmer.

How does Microsoft test with USERS?

[mykepredko]

Seriously. It seems like Microsoft decides what are the systems that users should be working with and runs from there with no regard to what users are actually working with.

The biggest irony is that they don't seem to understand that the people who will have the biggest problem with what they are throwing out are developers. I can't imagine that Microsoft's own developers are running their own development systems on Windows 8.1 - I wouldn't be surprised if it were a dirty secret within Microsoft that application development takes place on Win7 (and maybe WinXP).

I understand the appeal of having one OS and UI for all devices but a Phone isn't a Tablet which isn't a laptop which isn't a desktop which isn't a server. And if you're a developer, requiring a touch screen hurts your productivity.

myke

Re:How does Microsoft test with USERS?

[CaptainDork]

Microsoft development platforms are Unix.

Re:How does Microsoft test with USERS?

[kolbe]

Just PM'ed a buddy of mine in Cloud and Enterprise Engineering @ Redmond, WA. about this. He says he uses Windows 2012 Server as his desktop and VMWare Workstation running Slackware Linux on it. Yeah, seems weird, but he says he is more efficient that way.

Re:How does Microsoft test with USERS?

[Ol Olsoc]

I understand the appeal of having one OS and UI for all devices but a Phone isn't a Tablet which isn't a laptop which isn't a desktop which isn't a server. And if you're a developer, requiring a touch screen hurts your productivity.

myke

The appeal pretty much fails in real life, don't you think? It's more like the feature creep in software. Reviewers can rhapsodize about the 20 new features in say, Windows office, where something no one ever uses is become a big deal in a review.

It just seems like soundbite mentality to talk about one interface to fit them all. And yeah, I can see touchscreen capability in some programs to be seriously useless.

I also wonder if developers are going to be hit by the separate version of Windows 10 for smaller tablets.

And really, isn't separate versions of Windows by screen size sort of proving that "one interface to rule them all" just doesn't work?

Re:How does Microsoft test with USERS?

[ljw1004]

I can't imagine that Microsoft's own developers are running their own development systems on Windows 8.1 - I wouldn't be surprised if it were a dirty secret within Microsoft that application development takes place on Win7 (and maybe WinXP)

I'm a Microsoft developer. I and most of my colleagues develop on Win8.1. I don't know why your imagination is failing you.

My team does much of our work on VMs running recent builds of VS, and those VMs typically run Win8.1 -- presumably because it has a lower memory footprint than Win7.

As an engineer who actually uses win8.1 for my daily work, the only main UI difference with Win7 is the start screen, and that has negligible impact because I launch apps either by clicking on the taskbar or by pressing Win and then typing by keyboard the name of the app. Exactly the same workflow and same number of keystrokes as before.

Re:How does Microsoft test with USERS?

[XnavxeMiyyep]

I do the same thing for applications, files, etc.

That was my biggest complaint about Windows 8; it broke that workflow by splitting things into "Apps", "Settings", and "Files", which it determined pretty arbitrarily.

Although I haven't used it, Windows 8.1 seems to have fixed that issue by combining them again.

Re:How does Microsoft test with USERS?

[drinkypoo]

Windows Server has long been the way to get the expert's version of NT. On occasion, though, it has had DirectX compatibility issues.

Re:How does Microsoft test with USERS?

[mykepredko]

Thanx for the reply. I guess my experience is coloured by my working with the Win8.1 BT UIs and having to pair devices through the multiple methods which require multiple screens to reach the pairing UIs as well as how the BT APIs change the state of the desktop for the user (I'm still looking for an API that will allow me to do the discovery, pairing and connection without causing the current application to be lost).

If you have some suggestions on where to look for APIs that allow these operations (as well as I suspect other enumeration tasks) from an application without the user having to reset the application and desktop to where it was - I would be eternally grateful.

myke

Re:How does Microsoft test with USERS?

[jp10558]

Hilariously, for power users, the command line / search is probably easier than the mouse. Heck, for servers, Microsoft is pretty much saying you use a powershell command prompt to do everything and GUIs are slowly not being written for new OSs.

Now, as I work 50% of my time on RHEL servers, once I set up SSH on my Domain Controllers, it lets me integrate much easier from Linux to process commands on Windows. Makes things like Puppet easier too.

However, I don't imagine I'm the average Windows user or server administrator. I always figured the only reason Windows got market share from Unix was the GUIs so less experienced people could "admin" them. But now Microsoft is throwing that away (albeit slowly).

Oh well, if I have to choose between the unusable mess of Metro and Powershell, Powershell via SSH wins for me every time.

New name: 'Windows Auschwitz 9-11 happy' bar

[TiggertheMad]

Now they're just marketing doublespeak.

So true. When I saw the blurb about the 'charms bar' I immediately imagined an exclusive hipster cereal bar in San Francisco that exclusively served lucky charms cereal with organic unpasteurized milk. The flatware was reclaimed 1890s mining camp tin spoons, and the maitre'd was dressed like lucky the leprechaun.

I suppose we have that dumb fuck Balmer to thank for this....

Re:New name: 'Windows Auschwitz 9-11 happy' bar

[Tablizer]

...like Lucky the leprechaun

It's now the Blue Screen of Unfortunate Sorcery.

Re:New name: 'Windows Auschwitz 9-11 happy' bar

[greg1104]

You haven't lived until you've poured a PBR into some Fruity Pebbles.

Re:New name: 'Windows Auschwitz 9-11 happy' bar

[Darinbob]

And you know this place must exist somewhere. If not San Francisco then in Portland.

But how did it happen?

[Anonymous Coward]

What I still don't understand is how management, which is presumably comprised of older, more conservative, more experienced types, fell for the ridiculous idea of replacing the proven desktop metaphor with a tablet interface. (I'm assuming the idea was proposed by young, inexperienced marketers and junior executives.) What in the world was upper management thinking when they signed off on this, and why are they still working at microsoft after it's been proven a disaster?

Re:But how did it happen?

[Anrego]

I think panic is the key word.

Microsoft doesn't want to be the next RIM. They've been sitting comfortably on their office/desktop monopoly while google and apple have (not necessarily for better) been driving the future of computing, and are worried they may no longer fit into it. Everything they've done recently screams of desperate flailing to stave off a march down RIM's "we innovated once, that aught to be enough" path of doom.

This comes off less as some young guy saying "tablets guys, tablets are cool, lets do tablets!" as some old guy screaming "everyone is using tablets and we don't do tablets, we need to get on tablets now!".

Re:But how did it happen?

[grimmjeeper]

Unfortunately, they're using the only schtick they know when it comes to innovation. Build something vaguely similar to what everyone else is doing and then use their monopoly position to leverage everyone into using it. Trouble is, they don't have the lever any more and it doesn't work. So they have no idea how to proceed. This is why their response to the failure of Windows 8 is so confused.

Re:But how did it happen?

[Anonymous Coward]

But they could have "done tablets" perfectly well without shitting all over the proven desktop metaphor.

Re:But how did it happen?

[meta-monkey]

And there's no "grown-up" alternative. Back in the day you didn't run Windows 95 - ME at the office. You used NT.

If they'd made a vanilla, office-friendly version of Windows 8 called "Windows 8 NT" or whatever else, that kept the same interface as 7, they might convince some corporate IT departments to upgrade. But when you've got a staff of 10,000 plus, and you're looking at rolling out a new OS with a completely different interface, at the minimum you're taking a huge productivity hit while people figure this new thing out, and at worst you're springing for new training.

I can only imagine how many billions of dollars in productivity were lost when they switched to the Ribbon in Office. It's as if millions of voices suddenly cried out "where's the edit menu?" and were suddenly confused...

Re:But how did it happen?

[meerling]

If you are talking about microsoft, they do what the boss tells them, or piddle around achieving nothing.
If you mean the rest of the business world, they didn't. Drove microsoft crazy trying to get them to move from Win 7 & Win XP to Win 8. For the most part, it failed.

Re:But how did it happen?

[saikou]

Panic :)

Their Windows Phone phones and tables didn't take off. People didn't really like interfaces, so to save the face bosses declared that "if only everyone was _forced_ to try Metro, they'd absolutely _love_ it, tiles and all!". And what way did they have to force people to "try" it? Why put it on the desktop, of course. So everything went flat and square and ugly and full of tiles :(

Maybe by Windows 12 there will be some neat transparency and shine and prettiness again?
I can hope :)

Re:But how did it happen?

[drinkypoo]

And there's no "grown-up" alternative. Back in the day you didn't run Windows 95 - ME at the office. You used NT.

Ah, but what about that long period of running WfW at the office, except on servers and maybe CAD workstations and the like?

Re:Thanks

[CaptainDork]

You don't even have Windows 8.1 yet and Windows 10 isn't complete.

You won't know how to operate a Mac, either.

After a glimmer of sanity..

[wolfguru]

Microsoft returns to the delusion that they can drop nearly 25 years of desktop productivity and working style with a wave of their magic wand and everyone will fall happily in line. Changes have to make sense, an offer an advantage, or they will never be adopted. Has Microsoft decided to completely concede the desktop space to Macintosh and Linux? The biggest strength of Windows for years has been that when you start a program, you know how to use it, even if you do not know what it actually does - F1 for help, File > open to get whatever you're working with as material,and other similar conventions that allowed users to go from one program to the next with a modicum of understanding of the tools, if not the functions. The Microsoft design team has gone deaf to the actual user, and it all about the science fiction interface. Funny how you never see anyone in those scifi images do anything for more than a minute at a time.

Re:After a glimmer of sanity..

[PRMan]

Trust me. After only a weekend, I can tell you that if you liked Windows 7 and hated Windows 8, you are going to like Windows 10. All of the annoying stuff is gone and all that's left is better speed and battery life.

Re:After a glimmer of sanity..

[Anonymous Coward]

My computer is plugged into the wall, not a battery.

Re:After a glimmer of sanity..

[macs4all]

he biggest strength of Windows for years has been that when you start a program, you know how to use it, even if you do not know what it actually does - F1 for help, File > open to get whatever you're working with as material,and other similar conventions that allowed users to go from one program to the next with a modicum of understanding of the tools, if not the functions.

Oh, you mean like the way that Copy/Paste (and "Select" (Mark)) work in PowerShell???

Boy Howdy does that piss me off every time I have to copypasta between a Windows app (like, er, Explorer) and PowerShell.

Re:After a glimmer of sanity..

[macs4all]

Changes have to make sense, an offer an advantage, or they will never be adopted.

Like when Apple changed the way Scrolling worked in OS X a few Revs. back, it pissed a lot of people off, but at least they had a good (and correct) argument for it (that people going back and forth between iOS and OS X had to remember which way to scroll). And they also quickly listened to their users and made the "natural scrolling" direction Optional.

Yes, there have been some UI changes that weren't so well handled; but at least Apple USUALLY has a good reason for making the change (please, no flaming, it's just a general-purpose example!)

Re:After a glimmer of sanity..

[msobkow]

More importantly, Microsoft seems hell bent on discarding the years of research IBM put into the Common User Access guide on which Windows was originally based. A lot of the "new" metaphors *were* tried out during that research, and users hated it as much back then as they do now.

Here it is!

[Ol Olsoc]

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/... The real Windows 10! We fixed everything.

Re:Here it is!

[ItsJustAPseudonym]

Your sig: "To a coward, courage always looks like stupidity."

First of all, that's a cool sig. Second, what does it imply about us Slashdotters, when we mainly think Win 8 and Win 10 UI's are stupid?

Re:Here it is!

[Ol Olsoc]

Your sig: "To a coward, courage always looks like stupidity." First of all, that's a cool sig. Second, what does it imply about us Slashdotters, when we mainly think Win 8 and Win 10 UI's are stupid?

It was just a happy coincidence!

But wait. I have to think about this a minute. I hate W8 with a passion, but does that mean Microsoft was courageous> oh, , um, er.

BUT - will it auto-calculate folder sizes?

[Ralph Spoilsport]

IF not, WHY not? Apple does it. WTF?

Re:BUT - will it auto-calculate folder sizes?

[The MAZZTer]

It's too slow to be useful and will utterly kill network drives.

Re:BUT - will it auto-calculate folder sizes?

[ljw1004]

I'm using Windows8.1 and it auto-calculates folder sizes.

Re:BUT - will it auto-calculate folder sizes?

[drinkypoo]

It's too slow to be useful

SSD

and will utterly kill network drives.

Seems like Microsoft can address this one of two ways. One, just don't do it to network drives, the OS knows which those are. Two, by now they ought to have been able to implement this in SMB or whatever it is called now, where the client just asks the server for the size of the directory so it doesn't have to do all the calls manually. The server can prioritize that stuff last.

Re:BUT - will it auto-calculate folder sizes?

[dotancohen]

$ du -sh *

You can add that to a context menu item. At least in Linux (KDE), it is easy to add. I don't have a Windows machine around, but they say that Windows is easy to use.

Re:BUT - will it auto-calculate folder sizes?

[macs4all]

IF not, WHY not? Apple does it. WTF?

Especially since that has been available on Macs in the Finder since at least System 7 (1991), and maybe even before (can't find a reference right now).

Re:BUT - will it auto-calculate folder sizes?

[rdnetto]

$ du -sh *

You can add that to a context menu item. At least in Linux (KDE), it is easy to add. I don't have a Windows machine around, but they say that Windows is easy to use.

Or you could just Right Click -> Properties.

Terrible names

[pak9rabid]

Those names weren't Apple-ley enough I guess.

Looks UGLY

[ArchieBunker]

Windows 8 and these screenshots look really ugly. Why the switch to every shape being super sharp and using a 4 bit color palette? Looks like something I could draw up in paint in a few minutes. At least Apple's designs are aesthetically pleasing. This just hurts your eyes.

Re:Looks UGLY

[Anonymous Coward]

At least Apple's designs are aesthetically pleasing.

Sadly they went with the same flat look when transitioning from Mavericks to Yosemite.

Re: Looks UGLY

[jd2112]

Looks better than Win8 but nowhere near Win7 or even Vista.
I would say Windows 8 looks like something designed in a communist country but even the North Koreans know enough to rip off MacOS!
Bring back Aereo! Since I'm not a gamer my GPU is suffering from severe boredom.
I hope WindowBlinds is ported to 10 quickly. That and a start menu replacement is the only way I can stand windows 8!

Re: Looks UGLY

[omnichad]

So you want the GPU to start tuning television channels over the web?

Re:Looks UGLY

[Darinbob]

I like the flat looks. Aero was the thing I liked least about Windows 7.

Re: Looks UGLY

[Billly Gates]

You sir are in luck as Aero is returning

Re:Looks UGLY

[JohnFen]

I hated (and still hate) Aero as well. I set all my Win 7 machines to the old XP skin. That said, I hate the new flat look even more. It's not only ugly, but it reduces usability.

Re:Looks UGLY

[tnk1]

Aero is fine... if you can turn it off.

If you have the machine that can feasibly do all that fancy graphical shit, then why not? As long as they don't make you have to use it.

Re:Looks UGLY

[Darinbob]

I always found much of it distracting. Not necessarily the translucent windows and things but the overall look. Why do we still need window borders? We've got MacOS without borders, xfce windows w/o borders, etc. Similarly, shrink down that title bar and don't make it glossy. The fake 3D look is pretty archaic.

Re: Looks UGLY

[tepples]

If a GPU can decode ATSC from a software-defined radio, then by all means let it.

Re: Looks UGLY

[jd2112]

So you want the GPU to start tuning television channels over the web?

Actually streaming video is one of the few things that I do that actually uses my GPU...

Re: Looks UGLY

[omnichad]

In case you missed it, Aero != Aereo

Re: Looks UGLY

[omnichad]

In case you missed my point, Aero != Aereo.

Re:Thanks

[ganjadude]

yeah because learning MAC, an entire new eco system is going to be easier than learning about the incremental (although visually major) update to windows??

Re:Great news. Bye Charms bar!

[ray-auch]

Good news: charms bar's been gone since early preview builds, wonderfully refreshing to be able to hit the scrollbar reliably again.

Bad news: the start menu has not got more functional and sensible, it's gone way backwards in the latest build, and it's now the only option. Incremental search for applications is now completely broken, you get one result (if you are lucky) and half a screen of completely irrelevant web search results. In fact after enjoying using the previous builds, I may now revert to 8, it's that bad.

Re:uh huh

[davester666]

lipstick was 3 releases ago. now they are left with shoe polish.

the best thing about win10...

[Connie_Lingus]

i've been running win10 on my primary dev desktop for months now and on an i3 laptop, and i can say, without a doubt, the best thing about it is the install.

i have yet to have to install a driver for anything, and everything "just works" right from the jump.

its a pretty amazing technical achievement, considering the size of the wintel environment.

Re:the best thing about win10...

[norite]

Kinda where linux was 10 years ago. Glad to hear they're finally playing catchup.

Re:the best thing about win10...

[dave420]

That has to be some sort of perverse joke, right? Did you use Linux 10 years ago? It sure doesn't sound like it!

Still don't like it

[gabereiser]

You can iterate all over Windows 8 all you like Microsoft, it still looks like crap. If you want to go minimal with your metro style crap, go minimal. Stop adding complexity to the design. Either go minimal, or not. I don't care either way as I use osx and gnome far more than I use windows. But still, it looks to me as if they can't make up their minds about the design of it all.

Charms Bar vs Action Center

[Bacon Bits]

It's not at all clear to me what "Replacing the Charms bar is the Action center which has many of the same shortcuts as the Charms bar but also has a plethora of other information too." actually means.

If it means you still have to point your mouse to a corner and wait for a hidden window to magically appear, then it doesn't fix the major problem with the Charms bar.

If it means you have a bunch of options and settings that are only accessible from this hidden menu which you have no indication on the screen whether or not it exists, then it doesn't fix the major problem with the Charms bar.

If it means you only get a bunch of random icons with no label for what those icons mean, then it doesn't fix the second problem with the Charms bar.

Having a secondary OS Settings menu to complement the Start menu for programs isn't necessarily a poor design choice, but I am really concerned that they're not going to correct the fact that the theme of Windows 8 was to remove the user interface from the screen and magically expect the user to know what to do.

Re:Charms Bar vs Action Center

[vux984]

It's not at all clear to me what "Replacing the Charms bar is the Action center which has many of the same shortcuts as the Charms bar but also has a plethora of other information too." actually means.

First, the Action Center was a feature of Windows 7 (Vista?). It is not a new thing.

So I guess it means the charms bar is gone. And its functionality has been moved to the action center. Seems pretty reasonable.

I never liked the charms bar. Glad its going away. I hate hot corners.

Having a secondary OS Settings menu to complement the Start menu for programs isn't necessarily a poor design choice

Its really just expanding the role of an existing control panel.

Re:Charms Bar vs Action Center

[omnichad]

point your mouse to a corner and wait for a hidden window to magically appear

Or press Win+C or swipe from the right on a multi-touch touchpad (or from the right on a touch screen).

If you have a recent touchpad, I'd argue that the charms bar is *too* discoverable with most people finding it when they're trying to move the mouse or scroll.

Re:Charms Bar vs Action Center

[T.E.D.]

If it means you have a bunch of options and settings that are only accessible from this hidden menu which you have no indication on the screen whether or not it exists, then it doesn't fix the major problem with the Charms bar.

Oh! Is that what they are calling the "charms bar"? Dayum, I seriously dislike that thing. I typically want to reboot my machine only when something I'm having trouble killing is making it sluggish. In that scenario, it would seriously take some impressive creativity to come up with an interface for doing that which is worse than how Windows 8 does it. If the little magic window doesn't come up, is it because my system is sluggish, or because I don't have the mouse in the right place? If I do manage to get it up, where exactly is that reboot control that I hardly ever need to use? Surfing through 3 touchy magic sidebar menus on a system that gives you only a few cycles a second is ridiculously frustrating. Particularly with the computer's reset button just sitting there on the case taunting you the whole time...

If that is going goodbye, I hope they remember to burn the corpse so that it can't rise from the grave.

OTOH, most of the rest of these complaints about Windows 8, I can't get behind. The "start menu" scheme of previous versions had gotten so unwieldy as to be useless. Everyone just used start-menu search tools anyway, so it makes perfect sense to redesign program starting around that interface. Just hitting the window key and typing a program name is the way it should be. I really appreciate the bigger icons on the Windows 8 "start screen" that autoupdates as I type in the search menu. I kinda hope they ignore the whiners and keep that (or at least give me something as good).

Re:Charms Bar vs Action Center

[Simulant]

I've always found the Action Center to be an unwanted middle-man. If it's going to be central now, please make it quicker to get to. Right now I have to aim, click, aim again, and click again. I'm sure there's a hot key but the extra aim/click can go, IMO. Or add a double-click option.

Going to/from a Mac isn't hard

[sjbe]

yeah because learning MAC, an entire new eco system is going to be easier than learning about the incremental (although visually major) update to windows??

The Mac interface is a LOT closer to classic Windows (XP through 7) than Windows 8 is. I've transitioned plenty of people between OSX and Windows XP/Vista/7 in both directions. They're not all that different and transitioning between them isn't hard for most folks. I use both on a daily basis. Windows 8 is a HUGE departure in interface intended to merge touch screen and keyboard/mouse interfaces.

Personally I absolutely loathe Window 8. For me it is the most annoyingly unintuitive OS interface I've used in the last 20 years. Maybe it's fine on a tablet but I absolutely hate using it on a desktop.

Re:Going to/from a Mac isn't hard

[Chas]

The Mac interface is a LOT closer to classic Windows (XP through 7) than Windows 8 is.

Oh bullshit.

I think the Windows 8 interface is ass-tastic too. But I own an MBP (job requirement) as well and the interface is not "a lot closer to Classic Windows" than 8 is.

Re:Going to/from a Mac isn't hard

[vux984]

The Mac interface is a LOT closer to classic Windows (XP through 7) than Windows 8 is.

Nope. Not even close.

If anything Windows 8 and OSX are the closest. (Start Screen = Application Launcher); and the taskbar and dock continue to converge.

I've transitioned plenty of people between OSX and Windows XP/Vista/7 in both directions. They're not all that different and transitioning between them isn't hard for most folks

Agreed. Its not that hard to transition to OSX. Less so than people would imagine. But its far harder than your letting on.

But transitioning form 7 to 8 isn't hard either. It's far easier than transitioning to OSX because once they know how to find and launch a program in 8 it looks exactly the same on 8 as it did on 7. And the names of all the apps and utilities etc are all the same. Snipping Tool, Notepad, Internet Explorer, Stickies, etc.

Whereas everything equivalent on a Mac is a bit different, and has a new name. "command-shift-4 for screenshots", TextEdit for notepad, Safari for IE, Notes.app... etc. And even the familiar stuff like Microsoft Office has a completely new skin, and doesn't work quite the same in a zillion places.

Its simply completely dishonest to suggest OSX is easy to transition to while 8 is hard.

I can't really see why anyone would pay to upgrade to 8.1 from 7; but I can't imagine getting worked up about a new computer coming with 8.1.

And 10 is looking better still. I'm sure it'll have its flaws. Every OS does. (XP was widely "loathed" on /. for its fisher-price look and then-new two-column start menu when it arrived too...) And people were falling over themselves to boast how the first thing they did was restore it to "Classic" Win2K themes.

Maybe it's fine on a tablet

It is.

but I absolutely hate using it on a desktop.

I agree it needs about 5 - 10 minutes to cleanup its settings to make sense on a default, pin what you need, cleanup the live-tile overload on the start screen, tell it to boot to desktop, and use the desktop versions of the photo viewer, etc so you aren't being thrown into "Modern UI" at random all over the place. Turn off the extra hot-corners, etc.

But you don't need any third party utilities or anything to make Win8.1 a completely serviceable desktop OS. I'm at this point indifferent which one I'm using.

I like the start-menu search on 7 better than being tossed to full-screen for that in 8.1 enough to recommend "launchy" to power users who use the 'feature' but that's about it.

Re:Going to/from a Mac isn't hard

[Blaskowicz]

You can't even do ctrl-alt-del on a Mac. Really, the interface is weird and dated. I would rather use the Windows 3.1 interface (it just needs a tweak so your minimized icons have a bar of their own in the bottom). Hell it's easier to get around in fluxbox, editing the menu by hand in a text editor. Macintosh is harder to use than "worse than Windows 3.1" linux/unix window managers.

Re:Going to/from a Mac isn't hard

[sjbe]

Oh bullshit.

What an eloquent rebuttal.

I think the Windows 8 interface is ass-tastic too. But I own an MBP (job requirement) as well and the interface is not "a lot closer to Classic Windows" than 8 is.

And I own a MBP, a Mac Mini, a Window 7 laptop, a Windows 8 desktop, etc and I disagree with you. What you or I own means nothing. If you disagree that's fine - but explain why. Something more than "nun-uh" preferably.

The new interface they slapped on Windows 8 IS wildly different from the interface in Windows 7 and earlier. It's arguably more of a change than from Windows 3.1 to Windows 95 which was a pretty big change. I have had to train plenty of people at work and home (I run the IT stuff at my work among other roles) on the transition between Macs and Windows boxes as well as between Windows versions and to a person I've had an easier time transitioning people between Windows XP/7 and a Mac than between Windows XP/7 and Windows 8 Metro. The Mac and earlier versions of Windows use similar interface conventions and generally do things in similar ways (mostly). Generally if someone is comfortable in one they can pick up the other pretty easily. With Windows 8 Metro they pitched that and lots of people (myself included) took some time to figure out how things work and to be frankly Metro has more in common with iOS then it does Windows.

Re:Going to/from a Mac isn't hard

[sjbe]

If anything Windows 8 and OSX are the closest. (Start Screen = Application Launcher); and the taskbar and dock continue to converge.

Disagree completely. Windows 8 Metro is closest to iOS if anything. I use Windows 8, Windows 7, XP and OSX daily. OSX's basic interface conventions are far more similar to older versions of Windows than Windows 8 Metro is to older versions of Windows. And since you can't really get rid of Metro satisfactorily without third party help I stand by my statement at least for the time being.

But transitioning form 7 to 8 isn't hard either. It's far easier than transitioning to OSX because once they know how to find and launch a program in 8 it looks exactly the same on 8 as it did on 7.

Except that "find and launch" bit is a pain. Do you have any idea how much time I've had to blow explaining the differences between 7 and 8 to people? 8 is designed for touch screens and not a single desktop or laptop computer we use has or needs a touch screen. The apps are the same but I still have to interact with the file system and other OS features regularly so that doesn't mitigate the problem at all for me.

I agree it needs about 5 - 10 minutes to cleanup its settings to make sense on a default, pin what you need, cleanup the live-tile overload on the start screen, tell it to boot to desktop, and use the desktop versions of the photo viewer, etc so you aren't being thrown into "Modern UI" at random all over the place. Turn off the extra hot-corners, etc.

Which most people I know are never going to do. Maybe you work with more computer literate folks than I do (wouldn't be hard) but I generally see the defaults left at whatever they are. Any system that requires that much clean up is something I have NO interest in using.

But you don't need any third party utilities or anything to make Win8.1 a completely serviceable desktop OS. I'm at this point indifferent which one I'm using.

Personal preferences I guess. I truly cannot stand Windows 8's interface. I find it clumsy, badly designed, and it generally just gets in my way. I'm not the pickiest but it makes even things that should be easy needlessly difficult in my opinion.

Re:uh huh

[NotDrWho]

That brown stuff isn't shoe polish.

Re:Fuck you cocksuckers.

[meerling]

Thanks for falling into the racist slurs to really drive your point out to lunch and not come back.

Hey, I bet if you gave our ancestors the new OS interface they'd totally freak!
In my opinion, if something works, why replace it with something that doesn't. :P

Re:Certain?

[greg1104]

Are you sure about that?

Cat ?

[stooo]

Cat exists under Linux.
You can do that natively :

make a box :

if (( RANDOM % 2 )); then echo "Cat is dead">/tmp/Box; else echo "Cat is alive">/tmp/Box; fi

open the box :

cat /tmp/Box

Microsoft has never been unprofitable recently

[rsborg]

the start menu still contains a mini start screen. George Lucas pulled this shit in the prequels by wedging jar jar binks into the last one, and you know what it has in common? Lucas and Microsoft are doing it as a big "Fuck You" to their respective audiences for refusing to accept what everyone but the author knew sucked. Saying "continuum is the future" is a strange way of saying, "Listening to your fucking customers is a novel approach microsoft is begrudgingly accepting piecemeal after a blinding 2 years of profit loss"

Huh - 2 years of profit loss eh?
http://money.cnn.com/2013/10/2...

I'm no friend of MS, but you really need to work on your facts. The rest of your comment I can agree with.

You're dreaming

[msobkow]

Everywhere I worked in those days, there was Win98 on desktops throughout the corporations. Only the engineers and developers ran NT anywhere I worked.

Of course we're talking a period where "networking" meant file and printer sharing and nothing more.

That's nice, but ...

[bjoswald]

I'm sticking with Windows 7.

Re:That's nice, but ...

[iggymanz]

or not, if it deactivates itself because you changed a disk drive, and the indian argues with you

Microsoft's UI history is...not good

[dtjohnson]

It is not as if we must have the 'start' menu, or even a work-like or work-similar functionality. What fills us with dread is that the new Windows 10 UI is likely to be difficult and time-wasting to use...and since Windows is ubiquitous...we will likely be using it anyway. We, all of us, use a variety of digital UIs every day...the dashboard on our car, the screen on our home entertainment system, our smart phone, kitchen appliances, etc. Most of these are fairly simple and intuitive to use...simple enough that we don't give them a second thought. That's the point, here. Windows 8 is NOT simple or intuitive. It is painful, irritating, and time-wasting. That 'start' menu was nothing special as a UI feature. It was actually very poor...beginning with the obvious conflict between clicking on 'start' to perform a 'shutdown.' But...we were used to it. We were familiar with it. There's nothing wrong with a new UI if it is good as in 'powerful,' 'simple,' 'easy,' and 'fast.' The first iPhone (and ipod touch) was radically different from anything that had gone before it but it was a very good UI and people were able to use it effectively after just a few minutes. The Windows 8 UI, on the other hand, requires a book with screenshots in one hand and a smartphone with tips in the other hand to really accomplish anything for a first-timer. So...Windows 10, whatever it ends up being, will be carrying a lot of baggage to the rollout. Know that Microsoft.

End of support without paid upgrade

[tepples]

they want me to go to their store and buy every little update and app for some extra fee.

Think of it this way: If you were distributing software for home users, how would you recover the cost of making and testing updates to correct security vulnerabilities? I'm interested in what you'd recommend other than charging for updates after several years.

Re:End of support without paid upgrade

[silanea]

Think of it this way: If you were distributing software for home users, how would you recover the cost of making and testing updates to correct security vulnerabilities?

You do realise that those vulnerabilities are neither god-given nor the result of unpredictable fluctuations in the space-time continuum? They are defects in the product. What happens when Toyota ships a faulty model? They have to swallow the cost of a recall. What happens when Microsoft ships faulty software? They have to swallow the cost of issuing a patch.

The software industry already operates under a degree of leniency with regards to defective products that the majority of industries would not dare dream of. Do not paint them as the victims here. The only way to "recover" the cost of fixing bugs is to make sure you do not make them again in your next product.

Windows XB

[tepples]

It's an operating system, not a video game.

It's a video game. The Start screen appeared in Xbox 360 before Windows 8.

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[account_deleted]

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[account_deleted]

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Translation

[lennier1]

They still don't understand that the damn thing should be OPTIONAL so the user can decide.

Does it preserve my workspace yet?

[hackertourist]

The single biggest gripe I have with Windows is that I frequently lose state: I usually have lots of programs and files open. When a Windows update requires a reboot, I lose all of this so I have to spend time reopening apps, finding which files I was working on and reopening them.

Apple has figured this out for OS X, and Microsoft planned it as a feature of Windows 7. I've seen no mention of this for Windows 10. What's keeping them so long?

Re:Goodbye "desktop" Linux

[dave420]

So much opinion masquerading as fact. Incredible. You should probably stay out of these threads, as all you seem to do is harp on about OSX like your life depends on it, which seems a bit desperate. I feel bad for you if you have to hang out in Windows threads to make yourself feel better by pointing out to everyone why they're retarded and you (and your OS of choice) is awesome.

Just accept that you are you, and others are others. What you like might not be what they like, and vice versa. Getting all upset because not everyone agrees with you is only serving to make you look like a jealous school kid, regardless of whether that is true or not, or maybe some sort of egocentric lunatic who simply can not fathom why others might disagree with them.

Then let's sue Ford over the Model T

[tepples]

I was under the impression that even automakers had a statute of limitations for product defects. Or would someone have grounds to sue Ford over a defect in the Model T?

Command-Option-Escape

[sjbe]

You can't even do ctrl-alt-del on a Mac.

The equivalent on a mac is Command-Option-Esc which is identical to pretty much every unix system out there.

Really, the interface is weird and dated.

Right. Apple sells millions of these things thanks to their "weird and dated" interface. Clearly that is a huge problem for them.

Re:Goodbye "desktop" Linux

[macs4all]

So much opinion masquerading as fact. Incredible.

If we collectively removed all the comments on /. that fall into that category, there would only be about 10 comments-per-article. Plus, I don't think I ever claimed that my post was pure "fact". Of COURSE it is my opinion; that's what makes Slashdot, er, Slashdot... Next!

You should probably stay out of these threads, as all you seem to do is harp on about OSX like your life depends on it, which seems a bit desperate. I feel bad for you if you have to hang out in Windows threads to make yourself feel better by pointing out to everyone why they're retarded and you (and your OS of choice) is awesome.

Ah, now you are assuming that I don't have a dog in this fight. You would be wrong.

I currently am employed developing custom application software for a Microsoft-owned ERP package, and so spend every workday (at least!) using various Microsoft OSes and other software products. I am, for instance, typing this on my work laptop, a Sammy that runs W7 (which, like most Slashdotters, I am fairly happy with, OS-wise).

I deal on a daily basis with MS Server installs from Server 2003 through Server 2012 R2 at my office and at client sites. I occasionally have to interact with Windows 8 on co-worker's computers.

And before this job, I have had to run Windows at work (at least) clear back to W 3.10 and NT 3.51 in various Development jobs.

So, I think most people reading these words would agree that I am fully qualified to give an "Expert Opinion" on the various pros and cons of various Windows and MacOS versions up through the years.

In contrast, you will NEVER see me even attempt to chime in on various Linux distros, UIs, etc; because I have little to no experience with that platform.

Just accept that you are you, and others are others. What you like might not be what they like, and vice versa. Getting all upset because not everyone agrees with you is only serving to make you look like a jealous school kid, regardless of whether that is true or not, or maybe some sort of egocentric lunatic who simply can not fathom why others might disagree with them.

As I stated above, I happen to have deep and daily experience with nearly every version of Windows, both "desktop" and "server", since W3.10 to W8 and NT3.51 to Server 2012 R2, as well as deep and daily experience with every version of MacOS and OS X, since System 1.0 to OS X 10.9 (haven't loaded Yosemite yet). Can you claim the same?

So I am FAR from the "jealous school kid" you try to make me out to be.

Oh, and speaking of "Hanging out in (other platform's threads)" (even though I believe I have amply demonstrated my "bona fides" to be in this thread, above), if we removed all the comments from the Linux and Windows fans that contiually Apple-bash in "Apple threads" on Slashdot (but, unlike you and me, usually masquerading as ACs, instead of putting their Karma on the line like us adults (not jealous school kids)), again, we'd have a pretty lonely site.

Afterall, controversy is what drives this site, to a very large extent; and that ain't going away on ANY front any time soon...

Got it? Good!

I thought this was News for Nerds?

[RockDoctor]

What's a charms bar and why would I want one?

Some of us use windows for work, so haven't seen any of this shit, and are unlikely to.