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Perl 6 In Time For Next Christmas?
An anonymous reader writes Larry Wall has reportedly announced at Fosdem that "Perl 6 Developers will attempt to make a development release of Version 1.0 of Perl 6.0 in time for his 61st Birthday this year and a Version 1.0 release by Christmas 2015." From the article: "There is going to be the inevitable discussions, comments and probably some mileage from detractors to come. However ever were it so, for us in the Perl Community these are quite exciting times. We have two strong languages and a strong community, I think there is a lot that binds us together so here's looking forward to Christmas."
You really don't need Betteridge to know that Perl 6 isn't going to happen. Really, it's like Perl Forever.
CLI paste? paste.pr0.tips!
How's Python 3 adoption coming along? (and they worked so hard to make it forwards and backwards compatible if you remember to put parentheses around your print arguments!)
If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
Perl's strength is that it's expressive. It's not a language which is easy to learn or which generates heavily optimized code.
In the demo phase, you're not really worried about performance. The goal is to have something showing as quickly as possible, and not worry too much about how fast it runs, or how much memory it takes. Overspec your demo system for the time being (ie - make it really fast and install lots of memory), and once you have a reasonable interface go back and recode it in a simpler language which can be more easily optimized.
Languages which are simple to learn (c++, for example) are generally not very expressive. You end up spending tons of time debugging issues of memory allocation, library interface details, and datatype conversion.
Expressive languages are harder to learn, but any individual line in the expressive language does a lot more. Since you are writing fewer lines, and since the fewer lines do more, you end up making programs more easily and in less time.
Yes, the programs will execute a little slower, but as mentioned, this is not important in the demo stage. Your productivity will be much higher. And there are lots of places where performance simply doesn't matter. Scripts usually fall into this category.
Perl was designed by a linguist, not an engineer. As such, it's harder to learn (it's got tons more keywords and context), but once you get the hang of it coding is much more efficient. The following single line:
@Lines = sort { $a->{Name} cmp $b->{Name} } @Lines;
unfolds into several lines of C++, plus a subroutine definition with datatype definitions. The following line:
@Files = <c:/Windows/*.exe>;
can be implemented using one of over a dozen possible library calls in C++, but is builtin in perl. You don't have to look up the library call interface specific to your system.
And note that writing unreadable/unmaintainable code is an aspect of the *coder*, not the language. If you disregard perl because "other people use it to write poorly" you are probably one of those people, in which case you should avoid coding altogether.
I thought it was done over a decade ago but was so different due to strange stuff like 100 different identifiers that no one used it?
http://saveie6.com/
EOM
If the universe is someone's simulation -- does that mean the stars are just stuck pixels?
Version 1.0 of Perl 6.0? Why not just "Version 6.0 of Perl"?
Maybe it will happen, but by then everyone reading this today will be 61+.
Adoption is going to be slow. The current perl is like XP with one important difference - it's still being distributed.
"Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
Perl 6 is the developers equivalent of Duke Nukem Forever. I'll believe it when I see it.
Perl 6 .. from what I read a decade ago ... has 100 different data types? It is a monster which should be avoided for any project where people have to read this stuff. Larry Wall is a linguist turned programmer where Perl is based on expressiveness.
I have not seen Perl used at work for many years besides some dependency for some Linux distro app.
In other words it is the SystemD of programming languages compared to Perl 5.
http://saveie6.com/
From a decade ago until now, the Perl devs have spent those ten years improving upon what you either misunderstood or are exaggerating for comedic effect.
Java was rushed out quickly, and early versions of Java made that obvious. Perl6 is the opposite - they've taken all the time needed to perfectly implement their vision, to make it exactly what it's supposed to be. Not everything is nail, so a hammer isn't the right tool for every job, but Perl6 is a mighty fine hammer. If you have a task well suited to what Perl6 is made for, it's a fine tool for the job.
That's a fair point.
Thanks for the info - I'll go brush up on C++ again.
When they introduced the idea, and that it would run on a virtual machine called "parrot", I wasn't the only one who made Monty Python "but it's dead" jokes. Almost a decade later, Perl 6 is still dead.
"Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
They've been working at Perl 6 for - what? Ten years now? In that time one can develop an OS from scratch. What's Perl going to do? Give you minty fresh breath all day long and unlimited sex with multiple, highly-desirable partners of your choice?
No, that was Perl5. Perl6 is all of that, with Asian twins.
... oh, and regular expression grammars, but hey: Asian twins!
Crumb's Corollary: Never bring a knife to a bun fight.
It's farking 6.0. That *is* the farking version. What is the "6.0" thing if 1.0 is the version?
I look forward to seeing what Perl 6 brings. However, I can't imagine it makes any improvements on the core reason I use Perl5. Perl puts no restrictions on how I program and I am able to get something running by myself faster than any other language.
I am an adult and when I am programming for my own enjoyment I don't want to be told how I have to program. I definitely don't want to have to worry about squeezing my design into some Object Oriented bullshit. I want to tabulate my code the way I feel best. If I want to enjoy some dynamic variable scoping so be it. Mix up some functional with some procedural go for it. Create some cryptic one liner that I won't understand later, live and learn.
Bonus points for still serving its original purpose stellarly. Give me some text and I will mold it to how I want. This is what a majority of commercial software does anyways.
Perl6 began July 19, 2000, announced by Larry Wall in his State of the Onion address.
Yes, it will indeed include the feature you requested, via this new operator, which looks much like Perl's other operators: :O ==8
There's actually a lot of truth in that joke. It's been fifteen years not because nothing was being done, but because a lot was done, and done very thoughtfully, after thorough analysis. The goal was not to get it to market quickly (ala Java) or to solve a pressing business need right now (Google's assorted languages and tools). The goal was to do it RIGHT, really right. Based on the Perl idea of right, of course. Perl6 is like Pavarotti - neither everyone's favorite nor appropriate for all occasions, but damn good at what it does.
I hear they changed the name.
Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
>. Unless Larry took features away
The first thing decided about Perl6 was that some things would go away, meaning you wouldn't have automatic full backward compatibility. Certain constructs that result in a dense line of punctuation marks were an early example.
To be clear, you can now do those things in a more clear, consistent, general and intuitive way - the power wasn't removed, rather special cases and sparse syntax were replaced with concepts that are more generally applicable, using a more clear syntax.
No, Larry and co. screwed around for 15 years, trying to throw in everything and the kitchen sink, and made a badly designed hodge-podge of a mulligan stew. And Perl 6 still isn't done. The world has moved on, only legacy code in Perl 5. Perl 6 is doomed if it even comes out, nothing of note will be done with it.
Eeh. It's not so bad. I've had to maintain code from a few perl programmers recently, and it's usually not too hard to follow it. If I were in charge of corporate coding standards, they'd have to use "use strict" everywhere, and justify any global variables to a design review board. Also, I'd create a design review board. But that's more of an issue with bad programmers than a bad language.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
Help out with grading student programming projects and you'll see that anything can be a write-only language.
ha, never seen anyone use Python 3. Python 2.x frameworks are huge and everywhere though
I was actually not aware that Perl 6 was still, actually, being developed as "someone may use this for real".
I, unlike many people, like perl. Please don't get me wrong - I'm not trying to flame here. I personally love perl (5), and I'd say it's the language I'm most comfortable/familiar with. It's what I've used for years when I've needed to write something.
But I fully realize that perl is not preferred by many, if not most, these days. It has been replaced in preference by python for many (most?) sysadmins and devops. Legacy mission critical perl code (second to, perhaps, old PHP) is, in my experience, the most reviled thing out there - not because the language is bad, but because so many truly horrible developers (think: those who work on Enterprise Java now for a living) wrote it - and bad perl is worse than pretty much anything and everything else due to how 'creative' it let people be. Most developers really shouldn't try to be creative; it ends badly for everyone but the developer (should he want a perpetual job maintaining the code).
Perl just isn't used all that much anymore, and you tend to get yelled at for trying to do so. I personally think this is sad: what other scripting language will work (often without having to install much, if anything, to get it working) on everything from Windows, to Linux, to FreeBSD, to AIX, and god knows what else, completely seamlessly (assuming it was only written in perl and did not system() stuff all over the place). BASH and even simple SH scripts will not do this.
Perl was written and adopted in the era when CGI was still common, if not still relatively young - almost 20 years ago. In the interim, other languages have come on (ruby, python) which are more pragmatic if you're dealing with common developers with common tasks, and it's use (as well as the many, many modules available for use have gone out of repair. What's more, perl 6 largely fragmented interest in further maintenance/development of perl.
I'm really not sure what perl 6 has to offer over perl 5, or other languages - it does appear to be quite the paradigm change, from what I recall reading a couple years ago... I wish it well but doubt it'll see much adoption.
~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
FYI it can target most any virtual machine. Parrot is just one. The JVM is another. For example, Rakudo Perl is a Perl 6 implementation which targets JVM, MoarVM, JavaScript and Parrot.
With all the work that has been poured into MoarVM, MoarVM Perl 6 is now painfully slow.
This is a tremendous improvement. The best they'd ever managed with Parrot was "abysmally slow." Before that, perl 6 implementations ranged from "diabolically slow" to "the madness-inducing manifestation of the visage of Gn'oguracha, Elder Slug-God of Unspeed."
A typical statement from a recent presentation: "2013.08 was about 3,600x slower than Perl 5. 2014.08 is 34x slower. Better. But still sucks."
If they keep pouring in the effort, eventually they may reach parity with Perl 5, which was simply very slow. It is unlikely they will ever approach the performance of modern javascript engines, which are just plain slow.
You are funny, we don't use Ruby where I work. Plenty of Python 2.5 and 2.6 there though.
Ruby I just use for personal things, it's fun.
In other words it is the SystemD of programming languages compared to Perl 5.
Fuck! Don't say that! Red Hat might adopt it shortly before Ubuntu starts cramming it down our throats!
APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
In other words it is the SystemD of programming languages compared to Perl 5.
I've found several choices made by systemd relatively deplorable. I find Perl 6's choices rational and convenient, pretty much all of them. So no.
Someone had to do it.
Regular expression grammars? Perl 5's regexes still beat everyone else's hands down. Significant advances here--especially if performance optimized--would be something to have a look at.
who is waiting for this with bated breath? i think the wait is over, we've moved on from needing anything from perl6.
Legalize the constitution. Think for yourself question authority.
With all the delays I hope the first and not the second.
Whatever happens: congratulations and thanks to a team who have done so much over the years!
God, what a nightmare is to try to actually understand existing code from a different coder.
Where have I heard this? I'm sure someone uttered this phrase before I just can't place ... oh well I'm sure it will come to me.
Before you blame me for being my fault, trolling, etc...
"How come" every time "everybody" starts a paragraph with this phrase disaster is certain to follow?
How come I don't have any problem with any other language?
We all keep lists of languages YOU don't have a problem with.
How come everybody sane I know avoids it as well?
We also know everyone you know whom you deem to be sane.
NSA is actually a bunch of wannabee chumps next to your average Slashdotter with karma to burn.
Ah, shooting the messenger time! Perhaps, but I didn't actually do the teaching myself or even meet the lecturer so no bullet for me.
My point is that choice of language does not completely prevent poor habits. Spaghetti can be constructed even from languages with structures that discourage it. Whether that's from poor teaching or other causes I do not know, but there is some pretty bad code out there in a wide range of languages for whatever reason.
but Perl is that slightly chubby girl with the wry smile that is always reliable and willing to go to the dance with you.
Perl still runs fast.
And, before running, detects typing mistakes in variables when you "use strict;" (which, of course, your editor automatically inserts). Python has this little problem that such mistypings are still a run-time error. When the code that uses them executes. Oh the horror.
But it's got wonderful plumage, don't you think ?
The likes of Python, Ruby and Node.js have eaten much of Perl's lunch and what they haven't eaten is already served by Perl 5. Unless migration is relatively simple (unlike some previous Perl upgrades), I could well see the world choosing to stay with 5.
Fosdem has over 550 talks, and is completely run by volunteers. It will take some time, but will most likely end up on http://video.fosdem.org/2015.
No, not shooting the messenger. I understood from what you said that you were not the teacher.
(I notice that, when someone in the U.S. says something unusual, people in the U.S. often feel that the intent may be to attack them.
I suggest you visit Brazil. People are much happier there than in the United States. There are many shortcomings in the Brazilian culture. However, Brazilians are likely to consider that what someone says is just that person expressing himself or herself, and not an attack.)
"... there is some pretty bad code out there in a wide range of languages for whatever reason."
To me, that is a HUGE issue.
There don't seem to be any well-written books about C++ or HTML, for example. My wife and I spent several hours a few months ago reviewing 18 books about HTML. All were terribly written.
Generally, books about C++ don't educate readers about which constructs are appropriate. So, programmers try everything as a way of educating themselves.
So what? Doesn't change my point - perl 6 is still MIA and DOA. Just like the bird in the Monty Python skit.
"Transparent" is a shit show that trades on every stereotype going. A man in drag is NOT a transsexual.
I'm 61 right now. I'll be 62 when (if) it happens. Do I need to add, "you insensitive clod"?
I re-read and see you DID write "61+", so I fail at reading comprehension.
Personally I think they jumped the shark at Perl 5. My favorite Perl by far was Perl 3 -- when it was a better awk+sed. Now every language seems to want to follow the C++ trend of moving away from it's original strengths ---- and glomming on some really bad object-oriented model on itself during the late 1990's ---- and glomming on some really bad almost-but-not-quite-functional programming features during the 2010's. Seems the programming world would be a better place if the tools focused on their strengts, and didn't all try to be some "oooh, I'm object oriented too", "oooh, I'm functional too" game.
Perl is Finish, Python is Esperanto
Your analogy is especially apt because just as Python isn't perfect, neither is Esperanto.
The nice thing about perl culture, though, is you don't have to deal with quite so many people who think esr knows what he's talking about.
Regular Expression Grammars. If Perl6 consisted of nothing else, I'd still love it.
Crumb's Corollary: Never bring a knife to a bun fight.
'Twas the night before Christmas
When all through the house
Not a creature was stirring
Not even a mouse.
The stockings were hung
From the chimney with care
In hope that St. Nicholas
Soon would be there.
And Ma in her nightgown
And me in my cap
Had just settled down
For a long winter’s nap
When across on my laptop
There arose such a clatter
That I got out of bed
To see what was the matter
Everywhere curly braces
Did litter the halls
And I knew this disaster
Was from one Larry Wall.
I felt woe in my heart
For the many poor coders
Who would follow this prophet
And down many sodas.
Their programs pre-doomed
To illegible hell
'Til the day they heard clearly
Their career path death knell
I did try to warn them
On Twitter and Slashdot
But on they coded like lemmings
Who'd smoked too much hash-pot
But before I despaired, I remembered one fact
Perl 6 had been threatened 'ere machines like the fax!
So I went back to bed full of Christmas Good Cheer
Knowing that Perl 6 would never appear.
Thanks for the recommendation. Is there a particular Scott Meyers C++ book that covers general C++ techniques that you would recommend?
An Amazon search shows other books besides those written by Scott Meyers. So does Google. Also, there is no good way to understand what is the focus of each book, other than reading the very general title and the reviews.
I will start with Effective Modern C++: 42 Specific Ways to Improve Your Use of C++11 and C++14. Wow, 27 reviews, and all 5 stars.
Lol! Wish I had mod points.