Is IT Work Getting More Stressful, Or Is It the Millennials?

dcblogs writes: A survey of IT professionals that has been conducted in each of the last four years is showing an increase in IT work stress levels. It's a small survey, just over 200 IT workers, and it doesn't account for the age of the respondents. But some are asking whether Millennials, those ages 18 to 34, are pushing up stress levels either as IT workers or end users. The reason Millennials may be less able to handle stress is that they interact with others in person far less than other generations do, since most of their social interactions have been through Internet-based, arms-length contact, said Billie Blair, who holds a doctorate in organizational psychology. This generation has also been protected from many real-life situations by their parents, "so the workplace tends to be more stressful for them than for others," she said. Others are wondering if Millennials are more demanding of IT workers. Millennials are also expert users, and "are no longer in awe of technology specialists and therefore demand higher service levels," said Mitch Ellis, managing director of executive search firm Sanford Rose Associates in St. Louis.

Comments

sampling bias

[Sadsfae]

Lots of conclusions drawn from a very small sampling size, there may be some truth to these generalizations but I'd prefer to see more data.

Re:sampling bias

[peragrin]

When it comes to older generations thinking younger generations are whiney, lazy, idiots sample size doesn't matter.

Old people almost always think that. I am not sure if it is a product of getting old, jealousy of the young, or what.

But you can read newspapers from 100 years ago that had the same articles in them.

Re:sampling bias

[odie5533]

The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers.
-- Socrates (470 BC – 399 BC)

Re:sampling bias

[Austerity Empowers]

Pretty much this. When I started work, using email was seen as a kind of rising trend, why use email when you can call someone? Why use a website to get a datasheet when you can call the vendor and have him fax it? I used to get strange looks about my methods, I'm putting too much on myself they said, or don't want to leave my office, etc.

Now the "new trrend" (about as new as email and WWW was in the 90s) is IM, webex, wiki's. The older crowd understands these things but generally thinks they're a pain in the ass, but the younger crowd not only sees them as office furniture but doesn't think twice about setting up a webex on the spot and summoning the mages, without a day of advanced warning and a calendar invite.

I'm not sure we think they're lazy, but certainly hasty, a little inconsiderate and not used to solving problems on their own or at least thinking them through before calling in for reinforcements. It tends to be very raw. But that's just how it will be 15 years hence.

Re:sampling bias

[Anonymous Coward]

Bad example, this was written just before the collapse of the Athenian empire, so the guy had a point. Socrates himself was tried and executed by the invading forces.

Re:sampling bias

[Anonymous Coward]

This is quite true. I was born in the 90s and my superior (who isn't working in the same city as me) hates IM, while I love it and find it the easiest way to communicate next to email. He seems to vastly prefer phone conversations, which I hate because I feel like I don't have enough time to formulate questions that are actually going to generate useful answers and there's no written record of the conversation I can go back to if I get confused about what I'm supposed to be doing. Plus phone connections have such shitty sound quality, I can sometimes barely understand what he's saying...

Re:sampling bias

[chipschap]

What's changed over the generations?

I submit that people are people and fundamentally haven't changed.

Culture has changed, though, and that makes quite a difference. The older generation comes from a different culture than the younger generation, but when us 'oldsters" were "younguns" the "oldsters" of our day thought we were pretty worthless, too. And so on back through the years.

Different cultures, different life experiences. Not different people at the fundamental level.

Re:sampling bias

[fustakrakich]

The point being made here is that there is nothing new under the sun. People pissing and moaning about *how times have changed* are full of it. Nothing has 'changed' except the pace of events.

Re:sampling bias

[pkinetics]

As socrates said 'Kids these days...'

Socrates: "back in my day... we only had hemlock, none of those fancy apples..."

Re: sampling bias

[mattwarden]

It is just as much of a logical fallacy to use past examples of times not changing as proof that times are not changing now. If someone cries wolf, past cryings of wolf do not change the probability that there is a wolf.

Re:sampling bias

[Cafe Alpha]

I say this as a relatively older person. It turns out that it's older people who are whiny and immature.

People get worse with age, and they no longer have people telling them when they get out of hand.

People used to complain about 4chan, but when the God damn 70 year olds figured out Disqus they turned out to be much more heartless and disgusting trolls than any 13 year olds. The 13 year olds try to pretend to be racist sexist sh**s but the old people are THE REAL THING. The kids will grow out of it.

Re:sampling bias

[khallow]

No, he didn't have a point (nor did he actually say that). But why would you expect well behaved children in a situation where they're expecting to fight and possibly die in an incompetently run, losing conflict? Let us keep in mind that just before the collapse of the Athenian empire, they would still be reeling from their humiliating defeat at the hands of Syracuse, a city state with inferior military power (but a far better tactical and strategic position than the invading Athenian forces had).

Re: sampling bias

[Anonymous Coward]

I think this is an argument against millennials. The previous generations assume instructions can/will be followed without excessive documentation and follow up. IE - Byproduct of shortened attention spans, memory retainment...

Re:sampling bias

[Mr D from 63]

Yeah, but now we have unprecedented levels of Global Whining, and unless we do something about it fast, we'll see mass destruction of the workplace environment.

Re: sampling bias

[fustakrakich]

It is just as much of a logical fallacy...

Maybe it's merely a hypothetical fallacy. I do believe it needs to be proven false, logically anyway. Things are changing, but at an evolutionary pace. It is only perceptible on a geological time scale.

Re:sampling bias

[sexconker]

When it comes to older generations thinking younger generations are whiney, lazy, idiots sample size doesn't matter.

Old people almost always think that. I am not sure if it is a product of getting old, jealousy of the young, or what.

But you can read newspapers from 100 years ago that had the same articles in them.

And the old people are right nearly every time. Young people are trash.

Re:sampling bias

[grasshoppa]

It could very well be that they're right ( the old people ).

When I started training the new employees ( 18-25 ), I noticed how much bitching and moaning they did. It was shocking, really. Enough so that I stopped and thought about it, and realized that when I was first entering the work force I did much the same thing.

Maybe I'm old, and maybe you kids really should get the fuck off my lawn, but young adults DO whine incessantly.

Re:sampling bias

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

But it's the "damned kids these days!" because "back in my day!" etc.

The one I heard a lot growing up was: "Kids these days need to learn the value of a dollar!"

Re:sampling bias

[Beck_Neard]

To be fair, there are amazing old people as well. One of the oldest guys at my workplace is 80 or something; he's been retired for 15 years but he still regularly shows up and in his retirement he's written tons of technical articles and books. And when asked of his opinion of the newer generation, "They are enthusiastic and accepting, and this place has never been better." I couldn't imagine that guy saying a single hateful word. I don't know what happens to people that causes them to become hateful pricks as they get older, but I know that simply being old is no excuse.

Re:sampling bias

[hawguy]

As a member of the younger generation, I feel that the younger generation is whinier and lazier. I feel like half the man that both of my grandfathers were, one who fought in a war I see in movies, was an amazing cook, a skilled gardener, and worked two job back breaking jobs to raise his kids while the other paid his way through university while still finding time to play university football and did his stint in the military. When they wanted to work, they'd knock down doors to get employed while kids these days drop off a resume and consider that job hunting. I could go on and on about how the current day generation pales in comparison to the generations before us but I'm sure it will fall on deaf ears.

I'll agree with you there -- my great grandfather started working in a coal mine when he was 17, fought in a war, smoked every day of his life since he was 16 (with hand rolled cigarettes), maintained a 4 acre yard and large garden, raised (and slaughtered) his own chickens. He spent the last 20 years of his life living alone (his wife died "young" at 60). Up until the last year of his life he maintained he house and yard on his own, reroofed his garage on his own when he was 70 - didn't even tell family he was going to do it, no one knew about it until he was done, he shoveled the coal into his coal fired furnace every winter, he eventually stopped raising chickens after one time when the wolves or coyotes got into the coop and he got tired of patching it. He lived to be 82 years old. He never could get accustomed to those new-fangled remote controls for the TV (back when state of the art was an audio based remote) and walked up to the set to turn it on and off. He still managed to keep ice cream and cookies ready for the grand kids when they visited

Me? I'm too lazy to even cut the grass so I bought a condo with no yard, and the grocery delivers my groceries so I don't even go to the store, let alone slaughter my own meat.

Re:sampling bias

[stridebird]

oh yeah, you get time on IM to formulate questions. Lots of time. That's because you are 'talking' to people typing with one finger, whilst simultaneously 'multitasking' (aka not really paying attention anyway). I sit there watching the little pen icon scribbling away thinking, ok , this will be good. Then a 7 word response comes back. It's shit. A chat is so much more efficient. Jot down notes as you talk, then summarise the salient details in an email. Old school? I know it is. But it is simply better work practice.

Re: sampling bias

[Anonymous Coward]

Except the problem is that with all this technology, accountability and expectations on the low end of the corporate structure are increasing. Phone calls and other untraceable communications can lead to someone changing the requirements or communicating them badly without any recourse for the person on the receiving end. In other words, if millennials get the old saying "always get it in writing" intuitively, that is not an argument against them but an outstanding mark on their ability to understand the world around them.

Re:sampling bias

[cayenne8]

Old people are different than young people. Naturally, each group believes that the differences in question make them superior to the other group.

True in many ways....HOWEVER, this latest generation has been more coddled and has more of an entitlement attitude than previous generations. They seem to feel "owed" by society a job, and to be treated nicely and fairly. They are the generation of everyone getting a trophy just for showing up.

This was not something as prevalent in pevious generations, where when growing up, people DID keep score, there were winners and loser, parent spanked kids when they fucked up, neighbors had just as much a hand in disciplining kids in the neighborhoods as the parents....and kids grew up more independently than they do now.

Hell, my parents in today's society likely would have hand child services called on them...they spanked my ass when I was bad. They both worked and I entertained myself much more...I played with the other kids in the neighborhood. I often left the house (unescorted) during the summer in the morning and showed back up at home in time for dinner. I rode my bike and skateboard for miles away from home.

I didn't even have a cell phone, but was under orders to call in (when very young) every hour or so from wherever I was at a neighbor friends' home.

I played and LOST football games, I didn't always get congratulated JUST for trying. I got praise for winning. I had fun, I interacted with numerous friends in the neighborhood I grew up with and got praise for success and well, it sucked when I lost but I learned how to deal with it and deal with all types of people. I got my first job washing dishes at a restaurant when I was 16+ or so, and worked all during high school on weekends and some week nights, but had to keep my grades up to keep the job and enjoy that extra $$$.

Yes....every generation gets to a point where it doesn't understand the next one that well, but I think we have a bona fide GAP in how folks in the US have been raised in a very sharp and distinct manner with the mils.

Let's face it...the term "helicopter parent" is a very new term. And it is sadly accurate, and I think has had a very detrimental effect on this new generation of folks just growing up enough to set foot in the real world that doesn't really give a shit about your showing up. That is expected....

It is what you do after you show up that earns the dollars and you ARE in competition for real with everyone you are in the workforce with.

Re:sampling bias

[mbkennel]

| One of the reasons politicians took the Tea Party members seriously is because

their attitudes were useful to advance the desires of the exceptionally wealthy and powerful who sponsor politiicans

But you think it's really the haircut? If they just cleaned up a bit then substantial efforts to restrain the privileges of the powerful would materialize?

Re:sampling bias

[mbkennel]

| "Kids these days need to learn the value of a dollar!"

They have. Very well.

One dollar means squat. But if you have a billion, you matter.

Re:sampling bias

[PopeRatzo]

my great grandfather started working in a coal mine when he was 17, fought in a war, smoked every day of his life since he was 16 (with hand rolled cigarettes), maintained a 4 acre yard and large garden, raised (and slaughtered) his own chickens. He spent the last 20 years of his life living alone (his wife died "young" at 60). Up until the last year of his life he maintained he house and yard on his own, reroofed his garage on his own when he was 70 - didn't even tell family he was going to do it, no one knew about it until he was done, he shoveled the coal into his coal fired furnace every winter, he eventually stopped raising chickens after one time when the wolves or coyotes got into the coop and he got tired of patching it. He lived to be 82 years old.

And boy, were his arms tired.

Me? I'm too lazy to even cut the grass so I bought a condo with no yard, and the grocery delivers my groceries so I don't even go to the store, let alone slaughter my own meat.

Is "slaughter my own meat" something I need to look up on Urban Dictionary?

One can't be too careful these days.

Re:sampling bias

[Shadow of Eternity]

The latest generation works harder, for longer hours, with higher productivity, than any other generation before them and is the first generation in history to be worse off than their parents.

They're stressed because they're being fucked AND blamed for it at the same time.

Re:sampling bias

[ShanghaiBill]

first generation in history to be worse off than their parents.

Very true, as long as you believe that history started in 1945.

Re:sampling bias

[ShanghaiBill]

Bad example, this was written just before the collapse of the Athenian empire, so the guy had a point.

It is a bad example, but for a different reason: Socrates never said it. The quote is actually from Aristophanes, who was writing a caricature of Socrates.

Socrates himself was tried and executed by the invading forces.

No, Socrates was executed by the Athenians themselves, not by the Spartan alliance.

Re:sampling bias

[bigfinger76]

Minimum wage was $4.25/hr in the mid 90's. How old is your grandmother?

Re:sampling bias

[slew]

Hmm, Socrates didn't actually write/say this (apparently someone else wrote this as part of their thesis in the 1900's and it's been misattributed many times since then) as there are no actual surviving works of Socrates (most of our information about Socrates comes from Plato, one of his disciples).

It is also seems highly unlikely he would say something anything like this except as part of the losing part of a Socratic argument exploration. As I recall he was essentially tried on charges like corrupting the youth and blasphemy and generally being a devil's advocate and disavowing being a teacher which would seem to put his politics on the other side of this quote...

Re:sampling bias

[__aaclcg7560]

"And I would have gotten away with it, too, if it weren't for you meddling kids!" - Old Computer Hacker

Re:sampling bias

[Miguelito]

The 13 year olds try to pretend to be racist sexist sh**s but the old people are THE REAL THING. The kids will grow out of it.

It's cute that you think they'll grow out of it.

Re:sampling bias

[Miguelito]

but the younger crowd not only sees them as office furniture but doesn't think twice about setting up a webex on the spot and summoning the mages, without a day of advanced warning and a calendar invite.

Ugh.. yes. Not just the younger crowd, but seems more likely from them. One of my largest pet peeves is people that simply think that if you don't have time on the calendar blocked out, that it means you're not busy. Even with a calendar invite, it drives me crazy when people will send one shortly before a meeting they want to hold, then get all pissy when you don't go. Sometimes I'm just too busy, sometimes it's because I don't sit there all day watching for stuff to pop up in email or on the calendar.

I have a basic rule of common courtesy where meetings are involved: invites should be sent at least a full business day before a meeting. I know that myself, and several coworkers plan our day around the meetings we have (and that we're actually going to attend). Not to mention, page/txt/whatever invitees if the meeting plans change close to the meeting time, and I'd defined "close" to be anytime within an hour. Just this week I had another case where I travelled to another building, went to re-check the room as I walked in the lobby, and found that in the last 15 minutes, they'd lost the room and converted to online only. Man that pisses me off. If I'd gotten a page/txt I could've saved most of the trip and avoided wasting nearly as much of my time.

Now for a "Holy crap! We've got a fire to put out!" Yeah, setting up a shared session/chat-room/conf-call whatever on short to no notice.. that makes sense. For your little "boy I'm having a hard time working through this..." no.

Re:sampling bias

[peragrin]

Your grandfather did those things to survive. Refrigerators didn't exist you had ice boxes may e if you were wealthy. So food wouldn't keep people canned food to preserve it so they could eat. You want fresh chicken you had to slaughter it, or buy it from a butcher who recently slaughtered it.

They didn't clothing stores like we do know, or grocery stores. You want fresh fruits they were only available in season.

If he didn't shovel coal in his furnace he would freeze to death. Many did from that or from carbon monoxide from said furnace. Hell indoor plumbing only became a thing in the 1920's. At least on a Practical level. Most areas didn't get electritcy until after WW2.

You will quickly figure out how to kill to survive if you find yourself starving with a knife in hand.

You have learned more by the time you are 18 than he did by the time he was 40. At least for book knowledge. Street smarts and expirence not included. We are teaching calculus to high schoolers. Half of his high school class wouldn't have had a 5th grade reading level in today world.

Standards change. Accept all of them and not just the tiny fraction you can see. Or in the words of an iwa jima vet I once knew. I fought so we can disagree. That is the right. For that I will never forget him.

Re:sampling bias

[AmazingRuss]

We always heard that future generations were being sold out for short term gain. This is the first of many.

Re:sampling bias

[cayenne8]

The latest generation works harder, for longer hours, with higher productivity, than any other generation before them and is the first generation in history to be worse off than their parents.

I don't seen that in the Mils I've run into. Perhaps for the generations just prior to them, I see the hard work still, etc...but the youngest ones just in the workforce the past 3-5 years, nope, they expect a high paying job and don't understand you have to work and COMPETE for the money and job.

Just my experience seeing the workforce I started in and quite a few subsequent ones coming in under me....the latest one has real problems.

Re:sampling bias

[synaptic]

^ this

Re:sampling bias

[Maxo-Texas]

As an old timer- I don't view it as whining. It is MUCH harder for 20 to early 30 year old people today than it was for me when I was that age. There was no offshoring, outsourcing, etc. There were layoffs but only when the economy was really bad. Now things can be going fine, your company is making a profit- and you STILL get laid off and forced to train your replacement (which is humiliating) and you get the joy of knowing it is illegal since h1b's are only supposed to be used when local resources are unavailable.

Not so much for California Utilities, Disney, etc. who lay off workers and replace them with offshore and onshore h1b resources. Companies no longer have loyalty and in many cases the severance is pitiful.

Another factor is skill sets. I learned a skillset in IT and it was good for 20 years. The one after that was good for 15 years. The one after that was good for 5 years. I think you can see the trend. Constant training at high expense on your own time. No personal life.

Back when I started, IT were the fucking priest kings. We made good money, worked long 55 hour weeks, and had high status. Today, IT has low status, makes good money, works crazy long 60-70+ hour weeks. At my last place we had multiple divorces and heart attacks. There were 30 year olds walking around with black eyes (DEEP black- not just a little dark under the eyes) from lack of sleep.

It is much much worse for young IT folks today. It's worse for all of them in general. It's taking them much longer to get their careers established and even when they established they are never safe. It's much riskier to buy a house or a new car. Things my generation took for granted are gone.

And then on top of that, the safety net we had, the inexpensive college we had, etc. etc. is all gone. Heck- tho I didn't avail myself of it- when I was in school until very near the end, any debt I took on could have been erased by bankruptcy.

Re:sampling bias

[anonymous_echidna]

They seem to feel "owed" by society a job, and to be treated nicely and fairly.

These are reasonable expectations of a functioning society. That these expectations are considered to be ridiculously entitled is a reflection on society rather than the people who hold them. To look at it another way, if we don't aspire to a fair and just society where people who want to work can find work, then we've really lost the plot. Not to mention that work was easier to find back in the day, and perhaps we are the entitled ones, begrudging the younger ones wanting what we had on a plate.

I didn't always get congratulated JUST for trying

Noticing children's effort rather than results is better for producing successful adults, as it instils perseverance rather than a sense that your skills are innate and immutable.

Re:sampling bias

[AmiMoJo]

Back when I was young I remember one of the older guys feeling the same way you do when I asked a lot of questions. He saw it as whining, but I was actually just trying to get a full understanding of the issues and why things are done the way they are, not complain about them.

Having said that, I did used to complain a bit more than I do now, but only because now I'm just resigned to the fact that everything is shit. They tell you to work hard and achieve your potential and everything will be great, but it's a lie! Coming to accept that when you have spent literally your entire life trying to better yourself and get qualified for these wonderful opportunities can be hard.

Re:sampling bias

[AmiMoJo]

HOWEVER, this latest generation has been more coddled and has more of an entitlement attitude than previous generations.

It's the other way around. The baby boomers have a massive sense of entitlement. How often have you heard phrases like "I worked hard all my life"? They are the ones who had it good, who now own a house with no mortgage and maybe another one to rent out to some poor millennial, while the younger generations can't even get on the ladder.

Young people are stressed because they are screwed. They work long hours for little money, and pay ridiculous rents because houses are unaffordable. The baby boomers feel that they have earned those 4 bedroom properties so why the hell should they downsize and give up their spare bedrooms where they do all their hobbies, just because younger people need a place to raise a family? Why should house prices come down, when houses are valuable assets and are going to pay for their retirements?

It's the older generation that feels entitled. They just want what is best for them, screw everyone else. They set themselves up, saddled the young with the debt and the environmental damage, and are now blaming them for being lazy and weak. They seem to forget that when they were young one person working full time could afford a house, a car and a family.

Re:sampling bias

[Shadow of Eternity]

"High paying job"? They "expect" not to be making less than the minimum wage their parents got, while working longer, harder, and being more productive than every generation before them.

Re:sampling bias

[Shadow of Eternity]

Hahahahaha. Productivity, sure, that's what technology means but harder? Longer hours? Do you even history?

Yes I do, do you know how to count?

What a crock of shit. Do the words "Great Depression" mean anything to you? We get serious economic downturns every few generations, it's nothing special, and no, history didn't begin when you were born.

Oh, nevermind, I guess you don't. The Great Depression saw some of the most far reaching and ambitious public works projects in modern history as well as an equally staggering reform of wall street. This "recession" sees people like you claiming there's no problem and people just need to work harder.

Re:sampling bias

[Shadow of Eternity]

Go look up the PWA and WPA.

Re:sampling bias

[Dragonslicer]

Now the "new trrend" (about as new as email and WWW was in the 90s) is IM...

How is IM a new trend? AIM, ICQ, and XMPP have been around since the mid to late 1990s. IRC is even older, if you want to count that as IM. AIM and ICQ are only slightly older now than SMTP was when they first appeared (approximately 20 years vs. 15 years), but they were only about 5 years after HTTP and HTML, and IRC was developed before HTTP and HTML.

Re: sampling bias

[donscarletti]

They seem to feel "owed" by society a job, and to be treated nicely and fairly.

I'll tell you some personal anecdotes if I may. I'm right on the old end of the so called "Millenial" generation, I graduated from university in 2006. 6 months after getting my first job, the U.S. economy went to shit and the American customer for the project I was working on cancelled the project and my contract was not renewed. 8 months after getting my second job, another round of layoffs hit (based on declining U.S. sales, a failed Nasdaq IPO and the national government cancelling subsidies), with some exceptions in a last in first out pattern, until finally after a year and a half, I was the new guy again and I was actively encouraged to apply for other jobs. I tried a foreign country after that, but the company I worked for folded after 10 months.

To my knowledge I am not a pariah and for what it's worth I am well appreciated by my current employer, I would assume this is more or less typical of those who entered the workforce with me and were laid off along side me. Compared to even Generation X, who got started during the prosperous 90s and were able to keep their first jobs for long enough to make them meaningful, or the Baby Boomers who often went through their whole careers with a single employer, it is really hard to picture those who entered the workforce along side me considering having a job as anything less than an elusive state that can only be retained through long hours, office politics and luck.

Re:sampling bias

[s.petry]

To be pedantic, Socrates never wrote anything. Plato writes specifically about this fact. Socrates did not believe you could teach Philosophy by writing, he believed it required active arguments tailored for each individual.

Re:sampling bias

[tautog]

I've made it personal policy to not return unexpected emails immediately. I might read the email, but I won't immediately respond to it or address it if it is not a priority by my reckoning.

I don't even decline last-minute unsolicited meeting requests until the next working day. As a salaried professional in upper management, I believe that I've earned the right to manage my time and resources as I see fit. Fortunately, I work for an executive staff who agree with me, so the others who disagree with MY standards for time management are, invariably, told to pound salt.

I also hate phone conversations that will set some sort of precedent. I'm perfectly content to collect data to make a decision via phone conversation (I will often also rehash the conversation via email to give the other party an opportunity to clarify or readdress my perspective), but I do not like to debate a position in a voice conversation unless I'm very well prepared. It's probably just my communication style, but I'm aware of my fallacies and try to adjust my processes to minimize their impact.

Of course, having said all that, true emergencies exercise all potential exceptions. Again, I've earned the authority to determine what constitutes an emergency. My CEO might complain about the order in which I address his concerns, but he grants me the discretion to do so. (Yes, I know I'm very fortunate in that regard.)

Re:sampling bias

[tautog]

Large corporations have, largely, ignored IM until it could be managed like Lync (or O.C.). Yes, XMPP and the like have been around for years, but uptake has been, mostly, limited to smaller corps. AIM, ICQ and other externally hosted IM services are taboo is larger environments (due to data exfiltration concerns).

Re:sampling bias

[tautog]

I had to chuckle at this - it's as though the parent thinks that people learn to be bigots when they get older. It's like religion: beaten into you in your youth.

Re:sampling bias

[Austerity Empowers]

They are new in the corporate environment. I've had an IRC channel going now for 25 straight years, but it's always been personal. IM started being a thing at work somewhere around 2003-2005, and has since then become a virtual requirement. But even IM has evolved a lot, from something more like ICQ to an all-in-one chat/webex/sharing environment, and that has really been in the past 5 years. If you've been working for 20, that's "new". If you've been working for 5, that's "forever". Hence the generation gap.

Similarly email existed long before I started working, but I knew many companies in the mid-90s that had no email, or were just thinking about adopting it.

Re:sampling bias

[Headw1nd]

Athenians couldn't vote until 18, were in school until age 20, they were not allowed to participate in politics until age 30. All in all not much different than our system today.

Re:sampling bias

[tautog]

This is how a civil society survives. It takes a generation to enact a radical new idea, because the oldsters resist the change long enough to let the youngsters really think it over. Progress can be good, but it can also be bad. It takes time to learn that.

The young people get pissed because patience is not innate, it is learned. Eventually, (hopefully) the young will get to be old and the cycle repeats itself.

Re:sampling bias

[tautog]

The hateful pricks get that way when they stay somewhere too long or feel like they have no options. I'm closer to being old than being young and I LOVE having that youthful energy around me. It keeps me enthused about the stuff I love (and sometimes forget to love because I'm mired in the bureaucracy that is required to make it possible).

On the wrong day, it sounds like bitching, but, really, it's like a horse chopping at his bit: Come on, you old bastard, LET'S DO THIS. I want to do it, I really do, but give me a chance to do the paperwork and get my old bones moving.

Re: sampling bias

[Anonymous Coward]

I am in my mid 20s and have worked in IT for 5+ years. I can't speak on the behalf of all millenials but I would like to point out one thing. My issue is not entitlement, it is inefficiency! I started out with the DoD, the Tech department on my base was miserable. All of my coworkers had shiny bachelor degrees but were awful problem solvers. Above us was a management that had zero idea on how to integrate customer service principles with technical knowledge.It was the government, not a real shock, very stressful though.

I switched to the private sector and this company was far worse. My new colleagues were demoralized and the environment felt like it was stuck in 97. Half of the developers were h1bs and had little desire to communicate with the support side prior to releasing updates... Each update release was a support nightmare. The ticketing system had never been fully configured, everyone had been jotting down their tickets on notepads, and every single user had admin rights to their own boxes. This isnt a millenial issue, young workers get frustrated when they are constantly backlogged but are seen as to young and entitled to make improvements.

Young workers may be impatient but that may not be such a bad thing. The traditional corporate environment is dying, it is time to blend the best qualities of each generation of worker in order to make efficient tech departments. Show me an efficient department and i will show you a department with acceptable stress levels.

Re:sampling bias

[Blaskowicz]

I'm figuring out that was in the 80s or even 90s and there is nothing "uphill" in what he describes. Going on bike or board at age 10 or 12 and having a social life is great. Some kids spend their lives behind bars, virtually. Always in home, school or a car their parents use to cart them. Also it used to be if you spent all your time in front of computers you were a dork, now that's expected or accepted.

Re: sampling bias

[donscarletti]

Well, Aristophanes quoting Socrates is not so much different to Plato quoting Socrates, which is where his canonical quotes come from.

Aristophanes himself was an expert on cantankerous old people, as evinced by reading "The Wasps", an insightful critique of the classical period / Iron Age problems of increased life expectancy based on better diet and sanitation coupled with a marked decrease in violence compared to the Bronze Age leading to people living well past 40 and causing trouble for the young.

The allegory he tells, of Procleon, an old man addicted to voting and public participation to the detriment of the state rings true today, especially in countries without mandatory voting and too many elections for a working man to attend (the U.S.).

One also should consider that when Aristopanes was born, Rome was still a little discussed village in the middle of nowhere, so as far as knowing about old men, he would have you all bested.

Re: sampling bias

[Hognoxious]

Try putting each question as a separate paragraph, and numbering each one.

It won't make any difference, but try it.

Re:sampling bias

[lgw]

Think a bit about working conditions in the South a while back. You know, before that little war we had amongst ourselves? And looking within America for hardship is a bit silly in the first place - take a look around the world if you ever think you have it rough here!

Every century you can find a time where a generation had it worse than the one before; where working hours were "as long as you can see to work", 6 days a week. And history is full of civilizations that actually collapsed, or were invaded and slaughtered or enslaved by a stronger neighbor. But go ahead, tell me more about how young people in America are having a tough time.

Lasting economic downturns suck, but this is no worse than the 70s, and far better than the 30s, and really the worst economic times in America in the past 100 years are still better than most of the world has it today. What a whiner.

Re:sampling bias

[Cafe Alpha]

Young men (and some girls) just like to troll people.

They'll pretend to be racists and the like just because they know it makes people angry, it doesn't mean that they're really those things.

in math notation P(is a troll) > P(is a racist and is a sexist)

Re:sampling bias

[jordanjay29]

True in many ways....HOWEVER, this latest generation has been more coddled and has more of an entitlement attitude than previous generations.

Oh my God, you're so right!

Re:sampling bias

[jordanjay29]

Both my parents, both from rural areas of the Midwest, either had no refrigerator in their childhood or had one in late childhood (1960s). Icebox, sure, but if you were a farmer in the mid 20th century, which a lot of people still were, were you going to pay for ice in summer or just eat perishable goods quickly or less often? Cellars were useful in winter, smokehouses in summer, canning jars all year round, but a lot of people still didn't have an icebox, much less a refrigerator.

Re:sampling bias

[AmiMoJo]

They need good pay because they have massive debts from education and need to pay insane rents. If a company wants graduates or people with graduate educations they have to pay for them, and under the current system the cost is very high.

Look, young people just want the same things their parents had. Somewhere to live, enough money to have a family. The cost of those things has gone up massively in relation to wages, so actually the current "high" demands are not really high at all.

Many of the older people complaining about this are the same ones who feel entitled to a second home that they can rent out at market rates, i.e. they are causing the problem.

Re:sampling bias

[jordanjay29]

A (face to face) chat is only efficient for the person with all the authority. For the person expected to follow it, it sucks. There's no inherent record. There's little or no time for follow-up. There are so many pieces of needless filler "um," "ah," "you know," and so forth.

But this isn't the problem, the dilemma is not between a face-to-face chat and IM or email. The problem is bad management, caused by managers who don't know how to address their direct reports and ensure that their instructions are delivered appropriately. If Mr. Baby Boomer is perfectly fine with an in-person chat, then a good manager will know that and strive to speak face to face with them. If Ms. Millenial needs to use IM or Email, a good manager will know that and use one of those methods as much as possible.

Re:sampling bias

[jordanjay29]

Oh yes, please! Workplace anarchy!

Re:sampling bias

[jordanjay29]

Well this got political fast.

Re:sampling bias

[jordanjay29]

Back when I was young I remember one of the older guys feeling the same way you do when I asked a lot of questions. He saw it as whining, but I was actually just trying to get a full understanding of the issues and why things are done the way they are, not complain about them.

That's my quintessential problem. I want to ask questions and learn everything I can about a problem before I start, because it will save me time. My boss wants me to stop asking question and figure it out myself, because it will save him time.

Re:sampling bias

[king neckbeard]

I played and LOST football games, I didn't always get congratulated JUST for trying.

Kids see through that 'participation' bullshit pretty quickly, and it practically becomes a loser badge. What a generation of parents tell a generation of children will tell you more about the parents than the children.

Re:sampling bias

[Electricity Likes Me]

Old people are different than young people. Naturally, each group believes that the differences in question make them superior to the other group.

True in many ways....HOWEVER,

Everything else you wrote from this point on is exactly the same thing that was, has and will be said for thousands of years prior and henceforth.

Re:sampling bias

[Electricity Likes Me]

Blah blah blah so clearly we should do nothing because I am so sure I will soon be rich and it would be terrible to have to think of my community once that happens.

Your cynicism is neither helpful, nor deserved, nor insightful and reeks of privilege.

Re:sampling bias

[Electricity Likes Me]

No I'm pretty comfortable saying the Baby Boomers are uniquely the worst and Gen X is just the children who never had a chance to learn better.

Once they die and Gen X has it's tantrum over all the aged-care benefits they're not going to get because of the screwed up workforce dynamics the Baby Boomers led to, all of sudden all the usual castigators of the young will switch their tune to be all about socialism and welfare.

Re:sampling bias

[dbIII]

True, but people actually did read manuals and do training courses a few years ago, while now users are expected to dive in at the deep end and bother hardware support folks if they want to have two MS Excel spreadsheets on their screen at the same time (or similar trivialities).
There does appear to be something more concrete than "kids these days", especially since older users new to office computing are as bad or worse.

Re:sampling bias

[dbIII]

Uphill both ways.

So true - I used to struggle to ride a bike up a hill near my house and then coast down the hill at what I thought was high speed. Twenty years later the town where I grew up was flooded and the top of that hill was a full three feet under water - not much of a hill really. "Miles" when you are small is typically one or two since everything is so big.
Anyway, the point that we have a lot of scared parents around is valid and such a "free-range" upbringing in cities is something more likely from recent migrants than the mainstream.

Re: sampling bias

[dbIII]

That's close to the universal reaction to questions by email.
If I have to ask salesfolk multiple questions by email it's always one per email or any later questions are ignored.

Re:sampling bias

[dbIII]

It appears sometimes some of them pretend so hard that physical assaults happen.
Like it or not, there's a lot of racism about whether a few kids somewhere are "pretending" or not.

Re:sampling bias

[drinkypoo]

Why should house prices come down, when houses are valuable assets and are going to pay for their retirements?

Housing prices are purely the fault of the banks, whose mission is to own everything. They are refusing to sell empty homes at market value, with the end result that they wind up getting burned down or knocked over — and that people cannot afford homes.

Re:sampling bias

[hairyfeet]

Uhhh there is actually a BIG difference between Millennials and previous generations, as they were the first ones raised under the "special snowflake" political correctness doctrine, this is why this is the generation that makes up the overwhelming majority of what is now known as the social justice warrior as being fed a diet of Captain Planet, third wave feminism, and extreme political correctness when combined with 24/7 connectivity to social media has created a group of narcissists that are the absolute worst of BOTH worlds. They are a group that has been coddled so damned much they don't know shit about how things actually work but so fucking arrogant and self righteous that they perceive learning how to actually perform the task as an insult.

Frankly I've never seen any group so fucking clueless yet so full of smugness and a sense of superiority to those around them, the generation before them was just jaded and cynical as hell but were at least willing to LEARN, whereas these Millennials are so damned full of themselves they are downright fricking insulted when the world doesn't conform to THEIR idea how things are supposed to be they practically wear their lack of knowledge as a badge of honor, like its somehow "standing up to conformity" to not learn how to do shit.

Re:sampling bias

[PopeRatzo]

I absolutely agree. People raise their kids like veal now.

Re:sampling bias

[fluffernutter]

This is because in any system there will be an elete few that suck it dry. A perfect system might prevent this from happening but probably all the failures of humanity could be attributed to it and it is on its way.

Re:sampling bias

[fluffernutter]

No the real sickness is that companies shareholders and not leaving enough to be able to offer wages for the best workers, and for people to afford to make themselves into one of the best through training. I don't even expect companies to train empoloyees, though it would be nice. But for crying out loud, even the small technical improvement courses are $5K each. They are *priced for* companies to be paying so unless they do who can afford it for themselves?

There are many good working honest people that would improve themselves to be better workers if they could afford it but they are locked in a system that keeps them in the level they are at, right down to the individual skill level.

Re: sampling bias

[Kjella]

It is just as much of a logical fallacy to use past examples of times not changing as proof that times are not changing now. If someone cries wolf, past cryings of wolf do not change the probability that there is a wolf.

But it does mean that people moaning about today's youth is a useless indicator, like a broken clock is right twice a day. In fact that's giving it more credit than it deserves because it implies a situation we know is true once in a while. I can cry out about unicorns every day, it doesn't change the probability that there really is a unicorns. Mostly because there's no proof that unicorns exist at all. Has there ever really been a generation that's been so much terribly worse than the last?

Re:sampling bias

[AthanasiusKircher]

They seem to feel "owed" by society a job, and to be treated nicely and fairly.

These are reasonable expectations of a functioning society. That these expectations are considered to be ridiculously entitled is a reflection on society rather than the people who hold them.

It is a "reasonable expectation of a functioning society" to expect that jobs exist for you to do and make money to survive.

It is NOT reasonable to expect that society will simply provide you with the specific job you want, a job you find engaging or interesting, or a job that's fun or enjoyable. Despite huge advances in machines and technology, there still are plenty of jobs that require hard work, often physical labor, or tedious activities. Someone has to do them. Society may "owe" you a job -- but it doesn't owe you a job that will enable you to play video games all day long, or a job as an actor or a musician or whatever.

Yet there seems to be some truth, at least in the U.S., to the idea that many immigrants (including those are not legal) do jobs that are too dirty, too laborious, or too unpleasant to find Americans who are willing to work relatively cheaply.

Why is that? How many people end up staying at their parents for a couple years now in their 20s while "job hunting," rather than taking a hard job as a janitor, or a dishwasher or line cook in a restaurant, or mowing lawns, or doing hard manual labor? In previous generations, there would be no question -- most kids were done with any schooling they had by 4th-6th grade, and then they'd be working on the farm or apprenticing to someone or off to the mines or the factories. They needed money to survive. I'm NOT saying we should go back to that, but the reality is our expectations about THE KIND OF JOBS many younger people are willing to do have changed significantly. Society doesn't owe them a job they like.

This is not a new trend, but if we look at the statistics for the number of people in their 20s (and even 30s) who are still dependent on their parents, we see there's a trend here... and it's not just due to lack of jobs. It's due to lack of jobs that younger people are actually willing to do. (To be fair, we've also created unreasonable expectations here. We tell kids they need to finish high school, or they need to go to college. And then when they get out, they could easily end up working a blue-collar job that my grandfathers worked at with their 4th or 5th grade educations. There's a disconnect here on multiple levels.)

I didn't always get congratulated JUST for trying

Noticing children's effort rather than results is better for producing successful adults, as it instils perseverance rather than a sense that your skills are innate and immutable.

To a point. You need both. Also, studies have shown that the results are NOT as good if praise is disproportionate to achievement and effort. One should not be congratulated "JUST for trying," but only for trying HARD. When you get a trophy for "just showing up," it dilutes the actual praise for those who really win trophies, as well as for those who didn't quite win but really made their best effort.

I absolutely agree that STRONG effort should be praised and is good reinforcement for kids. So is recognizing actual achievement and succeeding in goals, though. Both are helpful. But praising someone for any minimal effort ("just for trying") is not generally helpful. The expectation should be that we all "try" in life. When you try VERY HARD and/or actually SUCCEED, then a reward is more appropriate.

Re:sampling bias

[fluffernutter]

Isn't society supposed to be getting better?

When do we all start hitting a button for two hours and then go enjoy our life of leisure?

Will that just be for the wealthy?

Re:sampling bias

[Kjella]

People used to complain about 4chan, but when the God damn 70 year olds figured out Disqus they turned out to be much more heartless and disgusting trolls than any 13 year olds. The 13 year olds try to pretend to be racist sexist sh**s but the old people are THE REAL THING. The kids will grow out of it.

I'm not so sure it's about "growing out of it", it's mostly about who really means it and who just kicks where it hurts. The latter is "just" part of bullying and could just as well be that you're fat, skinny, tall, short, glasses, freckles, divorce kid, clothes, anything really. Those who really divide the world into superior and inferior remain bigots, those who just did it to harass mostly grows out of it. Or graduate to internet trolls, where there's apparently no age limit.

Re:sampling bias

[PopeRatzo]

Oh look, Pope Fuckwit.

That's Mister Pope Fuckwit to you.

Re:sampling bias

[Gr8Apes]

Why do you think you deserve to be rich?

Re:sampling bias

[Gr8Apes]

Hahahahaha. Productivity, sure, that's what technology means but harder? Longer hours? Do you even history?

Yes I do, do you know how to count?

I do, and subtracting 5 hours of facebook/twitter/starbuck's swilling cooler time from the "9" hours they're in the office....

Oh, nevermind, I guess you don't. The Great Depression saw some of the most far reaching and ambitious public works projects in modern history as well as an equally staggering reform of wall street. This "recession" sees people like you claiming there's no problem and people just need to work harder.

It also saw long bread lines, sell your body for a day labor lines, and working for peanuts handouts in those government programs because peanuts were better than nothing. As for reforming wall street, I wish we'd not forgotten those lessons. We can all thank Reagan for starting the unravelling of those reforms in the 80s. I guess he "forgot" why they were needed.

Re: sampling bias

[nine-times]

To play the devil's advocate, have you considered that maybe younger people always are "whiney, lazy, idiots," and older people are the ones with enough experience to see it.

Re:sampling bias

[grasshoppa]

I'm not even talking about asking questions. I LIKE questions from my trainees, shows they're paying attention and have a genuine interest in learning. I don't even mind the "that way is stupid, we should do it this way instead" comments as I learned they're much the same question as "why do we do it this way?", just wrapped differently.

No, I'm talking about solely the bitching and moaning. The "they don't pay for vision?!" or "Why won't they send me to training?", or my favorite ( I hear this a lot ), "We have to clock out for lunch?". It seems to always be a shock to them how the real world operates. I'd like to think I was better than that when I was there age, but I was probably every bit as bad.

Re: sampling bias

[AthanasiusKircher]

what a romantic picture you paint. in this world you suceed by being a maximum cynic who has the best ability to screw over people.

What the devil are you talking about? Are you even responding to my post? I'm not encouraging anyone to "screw over" anyone else. I'm just pointing out that our system is broken in a lot of ways, and we currently have a bit of a disconnect between jobs that are offered vs. jobs that people are wiling to do. Some of that is due to "market inefficiencies," i.e., we're actually paying wages that are too low for labor. And in those cases, we should be paying more. Some of that is due to shifts in how long people tend to stay in jobs or learn enough to become "skilled workers." (A lot of low-paying dirty jobs are paid on the basis of how much volume you can do: people who work in these jobs over a few years will learn to be more efficient and can often earn decent wages. But most people who just are "looking for any job" will quit within a week after starting because it's "too hard" for what they earn.)

And there are lots of other things going on, like I said about how we create expectations that educated workers will find better jobs when there often aren't enough such jobs to go around. Etc.

What's your solution? Who is supposed to do the dirty and laborious jobs? Or are you just a "drive-by" AC who likes to lob insults but has nothing of value to offer in response?

Re:sampling bias

[lgw]

Shadow of Eternity said:

The latest generation works harder, for longer hours, with higher productivity, than any other generation before them

and

and is the first generation in history to be worse off than their parents.

And people actually modded that ridiculous bullshit up. That's the only point I'm making: this hyperbole makes you sound whiny as fuck. This goes beyond "first world problems" as even by the recent history of the first world, we have it very nice.

Re:sampling bias

[Bengie]

the worst financial crisis in 80 years struck

Pfffft. I was getting offered $80k/year starting wages fresh out of college when I graduated during that "recession", and in cities where that'd put my personal income in the top 25% all from $16k of college education. 30 years strait of 100% job placement after graduation from my college. What do I do? Programming. I had at least one offer to fly me out to Cali and put my in a hotel just for an interview on their dime.

If you're having a hard time finding a job as a "programmer", either you're not a programmer or you refuse to move, which I think is a valid reason. I like being near family.

Programming isn't hard. We've got 60 year old ladies at work with no post-highschool education or training and no computers at home, able to do SQL fairly decently. They can write queries good enough to get me useful information when they come to me. Better than some "programmers" I've seen. I swear, most people are functional idiots. If they haven't been "trained", they can't figure it out themselves.

Re:sampling bias

[Bengie]

"put my personal income in the top 25%" of household incomes. Low crime, cheap and high quality education cities to. Voted some of the best in the nation for family living.

Re:sampling bias

[Gavagai80]

Unemployment rate right now is 5.4%. Unemployment rate in 1932 was 23.6%. In relative terms, there isn't a problem.

Re:sampling bias

[Gavagai80]

Most areas didn't get electritcy until after WW2.

70% of USA households had electricity by 1930. (source)

Refrigerators didn't exist you had ice boxes maybe if you were wealthy.

I'm pretty sure most people had an icebox. I can't find exact numbers but: "By 1884, one writer noted that refrigerators [meaning ice boxes] were as common as stoves or sewing machines in all but the poorest tenements. The use of ice in the home was growing to keep food longer and to cool drinks." (source)

Re:sampling bias

[Gavagai80]

Note that an 80% literacy rate is not good at all, since literacy is defined generously and has been over 99% for our lifetimes. I'm sure a 5th grade reading level would be considered literate. Rather than a class full of high school students reading at the 5th grade level, though, it's more likely that a lot of the would-be students weren't in class at all. High school attendance rates in the first half of the 20th century were a lot lower.

Re: sampling bias

[cthulhu11]

Increase of expected hours/week, and in 24x7 services that effectively keep us "on" around the clock. No raises, not even COLA, so earning power is decreasing constantly. Eroding benefits.

Re:sampling bias

[cerberusti]

“The children now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise.”

  Socrates

Might as well actually quote it.

Re: sampling bias

[Holladon]

Many/most people raised in the 80s and 90s are considered Millenials. Only a very small handful of those still in high school fall into the Millenial category. People here seem to be thinking "Millenial" means teens and brand-new employees. Depending on which of the proposed birth year cut-offs you favor, "Millenials" can include people as old as 35 this year.

Re:sampling bias

[Holladon]

I don't seen that in the Mils I've run into. Perhaps for the generations just prior to them, I see the hard work still, etc...but the youngest ones just in the workforce the past 3-5 years, nope, they expect a high paying job and don't understand you have to work and COMPETE for the money and job.

And what are the "generations just prior"? How prior? Prior to whom, precisely? Someone who's been in the workforce for only 3-5 years is maybe, what, mid-twenties, tops? So this is someone who was born in the early 90s. I hope you realize that the the youngest cutoff most social scientists use to describe "Millenials" is 1984, and most go with an earlier year like 1982 or 1980. So while you're bemoaning the common problem of young people new to the corporate world/professional workforce who haven't yet acclimated and attributing this to a particular generation, you're completely ignoring the fact that the "generation" in question is defined as including people about ten years older than the folks you're griping about.

Do you have the same gripes about your 31-year-old coworkers? If not, then guess what, you're yet another person anecdotally demonstrating that this is not a generational trend, but rather the same, age-old problem of young people seeming annoyingly young to those of us who are a little bit (or a lot) older than them.

Re:sampling bias

[cerberusti]

Where did you go to school? My experience with recent grads is bad enough that I do not give a degree in CS any consideration at all, and you must demonstrate that you know how to program before I will pay a decent salary.

Most cannot write a simple program which prints all odd numbers between 0 and 100 (no internet access, but they get to choose any language.) Programmers do make some money, although I have found that most people graduating with a CS degree are not capable of programming.

Re:sampling bias

[cerberusti]

A quick search shows others having a similar problem. I do wish colleges would actually fail those they should, but I guess it is more profitable to take their money (at least it was short term... industry is catching on.)

http://blog.codinghorror.com/why-cant-programmers-program/

Re:sampling bias

[Holladon]

It is NOT reasonable to expect that society will simply provide you with the specific job you want, a job you find engaging or interesting, or a job that's fun or enjoyable. Despite huge advances in machines and technology, there still are plenty of jobs that require hard work, often physical labor, or tedious activities. Someone has to do them. Society may "owe" you a job -- but it doesn't owe you a job that will enable you to play video games all day long, or a job as an actor or a musician or whatever.

The "video games" remark is unfairly dismissive, and denigrating artistic aspirations is hardly the exclusive province of those of us just old enough to look down on 20-somethings. My Boomer parents were doing that decades ago, as I'm sure their parents did as well.

My two minor peeves aside, while there's something to your point, and I appreciate your recognition elsewhere in your comment that there are larger forces at work here too, one key larger force that it seems you haven't accounted for is the resume effect: namely, if I, as a white-collar professional (or aspiring white-collar professional, or aspiring whatever-with-60k-in-student-loan-debt, etc.), find myself unexpectedly laid off and have difficulty finding work in my field, my options pretty much fall into one of three broad possibilities: (1) go back to school, (2) do something creatively/personally rewarding and/or interesting (volunteer work, something creative but still tied to my field, etc.), or (3) take whatever job I can find to put money on the table.

I wholeheartedly agree that option (3) is worthy of consideration and respect, but most employers looking at resumes don't. Period. In fact, in my experience, the average corporate employer's respect for each of the three options has a near-perfect inverse relationship with the cost of each option. This is pure classism, and it is horrific, and it is unquestionably adding to the country's (and the world's) massive economic inequality and countless other problems. A person (with the means to be able to do so) who avoids option (3) isn't necessarily doing it out of laziness or unrealistic expectations. It's highly possible, even probable in many cases, that he or she is doing it because of insight (which may well be subconscious) into the way things are in the modern business world. I'm reluctant to apportion much blame to relatively disempowered individuals for responding in a wholly rational manner to the skewed incentives that the more-powerful create for them.

Re:sampling bias

[Holladon]

In fact, in my experience, the average corporate employer's respect for each of the three options has a near-perfect inverse relationship with the cost of each option.

Of course, I proofread this five times and only after I hit "Submit" did I realize that the relationship I'm alluding to is direct, not inverse. Derp. Or as Gene Wilder (as the only Willy Wonka in existence, and I will abide no dispute on this point) more eloquently put it: "Strike that. Reverse it."

Re:sampling bias

[cayenne8]

"High paying job"? They "expect" not to be making less than the minimum wage their parents got, while working longer, harder, and being more productive than every generation before them.

That minimum wage job thing is really mostly a fallacy, in that most of those flipping burger jobs are not for the PRIMARY bread winner of a home, they are not the head of household. From what I've read, *most* people making minimum wage, are living in households making about $40-$50K a year, they are the kids with their first jobs.

We're not talking about that, we're discussing here people coming out of college, or even high school into the REAL workforce.....

Re:sampling bias

[cayenne8]

They need good pay because they have massive debts from education and need to pay insane rents.

Simple answer to that really..is be willing to MOVE to where there are better paying jobs, in conjunction with lower rents.

That total cost of living thing is an equation to be worked out in life.

There are plenty of places in the US where the cost of living is VERY low, and while the salary might not sound $$$...in an area with lower cost of living, it is easy to not only get by, but prosper on a technically lower salary in a low cost of living area.

There are places in the US where you can get almost a 2500 sq-ft home for the $220-$230K range for God's sake....

The day in age where you don't have to move for a job have long passed us. Are kids afraid these days to move too far from Mommy and Daddy?

Re:sampling bias

[Shadow of Eternity]

You've read bullshit then, nearly 90% of people in minimum wage jobs are 20 or older and most are people trying to survive.

Re:sampling bias

[cerberusti]

In most fields your employer only really cares that you can do the job.

In the past a degree was an indication that you knew at least the basics of the field you were trying to enter. These days it seems colleges will pass nearly everyone in order to keep collecting tuition, and this has been going on long enough that in many cases industry is on to that scam and no longer wants to pay a premium for the degree.

The government has also been guaranteeing student loans, and preventing discharge in bankruptcy. This means even an indigent 18 year old is seen as good for whatever amount of money they care to borrow. It does not matter to the college, the government, or the loan company that there is no need for the number of people who are graduating in many fields, that some fields do not really produce the amount of income necessary to make good on the loan, or that the graduates coming out are not competent to enter the field they were supposedly trained in.

Despite all of that there are still plenty of jobs available, and if you want a job right now you can pretty much get one in most of the US. Some of these pay quite a bit of money as well: plumbing, electrical work, waste collection, and construction all pay a decent wage. Nursing is also a field which always needs more people.

The real fix is to stop guaranteeing student loans and allow them to be discharged in bankruptcy. If you needed to get approved by a private loan company who could lose the money they invest, it would sort this out in short order.

I hire programmers, and do not consider the degree at all for salary or hiring. I pay in line with demonstrated ability and work experience only. I have in fact noticed that for entry level positions applicants without a degree have a much better chance of actually being able to write a program, and as my time is limited I have begun to prefer that when doing the initial filter on applicants (it is shocking how many CS graduates cannot write even a trivial program, but those claiming to have learned on their own tend to only apply for a job after they know enough to at least do something useful.)

 

Re:sampling bias

[cerberusti]

I am a millennial, although on the older side (early 30s) and I definitely see where you are coming from with that rant.

Many people in my age group seem to think the world owes them something. Their parents told them they were special, and they could do anything they want. When something goes wrong it could not possibly be their fault, and someone else should fix it for them. There are plenty of people like that in earlier generations too, but mine seems to be especially full of it.

I admit I was fortunate in many ways. I have parents who care (my mother especially cared enough to hit me or throw things when I annoyed her), I score very well on any test I care to take with very little effort compared to most, and I was born into a middle class US household which was not struggling.

I really think overly protective parents, schools which do not want to leave anyone behind, awards for everyone, college for everyone, etc. have caused a bit of a problem. The thing is that once you leave childhood and enter the real world, nobody really gives a shit about you except you. That is a nasty transition for someone who has been coddled their entire life, and not everyone makes it successfully.

As an adult it is your problem if your life is not going the way you want, and if you want to know who will fix it for you, you should go find a mirror.

People complain about crippling student loans, but they are the ones who signed the loan. They complain that they cannot get a job, but they lack the skills which would make them employable. They complain when they lose the jobs they do get, or are not promoted, but they are the ones on facebook instead of working. They complain that they are fat, but they sit on ass all day, eat mcdonalds, and drink coke. They complain that companies have all the power, but lack the motivation to go start their own. They complain about their huge cell phone bill, but for some reason though it was a good idea to sign up for a couple year loan so they can have an iphone.

I have made my way in the world without too much of an issue (the recession hit me just after forming a new company using my own money, which kind of sucked...but at this point that is over and done.)

I have a decent job because I have useful skills, and control over many aspects of work because I reliably show up and remain calm when things go wrong.
I have no debt because I avoid it when I think it is not in my interest.
I am not fat or diabetic because I eat well and run every morning.

That does not mean that everything has always worked out, despite what may many people think. I do get tired of people saying that I just lucked out, when what is really occurring is that I make changes in my life when I am not satisfied with the way things are going. These can sometimes be major and uncomfortable changes where I need to invest substantial effort and take some risk.

I see so many people saying that somebody needs to fix the problems with our society, but do not even consider that they should be that somebody.

Re:sampling bias

[sydbarrett74]

As probably pointed out elsewhere in these comments, the same is said about every technological development.

'Those impudent whipper-snappers writing on papyri. When I was a child, we were forced to memorise epic poetry. They are so lazy for committing things to an external medium rather than their memories!'

'Those rascals calling on that newfangled telephone gewgaw! Why not take a ride over to the dry grocer rather than calling in an order. The height of sloth, I tell you!'

Re:sampling bias

[Bengie]

Local State uni. Lots of alumni in big companies or important government tech positions. When you graduated, you pretty much had a bunch of practice and theory to be a full-stack programmer, Database admin, network admin, server admin, and system's security. A very well rounded education. When I architect and design my projects, I consider all aspects, security, performance, maintainability, what systems it communicates with.

The most important thing I learned was how to think from other people's positions. I bettered my ability to both be critical and creative by learning other people's point of views. Because I can put myself in a DBA's shoes, or a network admin's, or the security team, my ability to program is much better. I also get a lot of slack from the admins since I do think of them and make their jobs as easy as possible for what needs to get done. For many other programmers, coordinating several admins to setup the environment is like herding cats. I seem to have little issue.

It's amazing how much of a difference small design decisions can make. Butterfly Effect applies to programming and being able to see the ramifications of minute design details helps a lot.

Re: sampling bias

[Cinnamon Beige]

You're probably in the same group as me--and I've watched other Millennials who honestly do feel entitled to a job, in the sense that we're having to work hard to have any job and recognize that the current economic environment means jobs are not easily gotten...and they're complaining because the job in their (exceedingly narrow) field that pays the (nowhere near entry-level) wage they want is not magically appearing in front of them. (I've also watched them quit jobs for strange reasons--'satisfaction' is something to consider when deciding between two jobs, especially when you've debt. 'Can I afford this job?' would have been better, as too much of the money was being eaten by the travel costs and the schedule was...apparently designed for zombies.)

Given that, frankly, I knew going into college exactly what sort of careers the various majors I was considering could get me, as well as what entry-level jobs and wages existed, and I'm at the older end of the Millennial range, I don't feel terribly sympathetic. The information to make an informed choice was there, even if it wasn't as easily obtained then as it is now.

Re: sampling bias

[Pubstar]

I've already been warned by several supervisors that while in communication with certain people at my work, always send an email to them after the call to restate what was said on the phone conversation so I have a record of them telling me to do something. These people have a tendency to 'forget' things they tell others to do and it can lead to people getting fired.

But that is why I love WebEx Connect/Lync/etc. I always have a record of all conversations that I had with superiors. It's saved my ass quite a few times.

Re:sampling bias

[Pubstar]

I was born in 87, played sports my whole life. All the teams I played on that didn't win championships seemed to be happy with the participation trophy. I was one of the few kids that had the mentality of "2nd place is the first loser." Some do, but most don't.

Re: sampling bias

[mattwarden]

The point is just that the absence of an indicator is not an indicator of absence, and people use this argument as evidence that things are not changing now. That assumes stasis and it assumes linearity. When "things change" on important dimensions, it can be very rapid non-linear change, and that change is accelerated when everyone thinks things don't change and are fragile as a result.

Re: sampling bias

[mujadaddy]

Do you know the word "millennium"? Become acquainted, please.

Re:sampling bias

[pnutjam]

let's see your citations. I don't see many teenagers in the $15 /hour protests.

Re:sampling bias

[pnutjam]

I think the simple fact is that our society has been swindled.
We've been lead to believe that saving for retirement, saving for your child's education, and saving for your medical care are achievable goals. They are only achievable for a small subset of the population, a load subset. Most people will always live on what they make. Social capital is worth more then money in the bank, whether it's kids that will help (historical), or society (European model).
Wealth can always be stolen, it can disappear in a moment, often when it is most needed. It can be stolen by inflation, predatory financial markets, swindlers, poor planning, etc. We need to learn to invest more in our social net instead of hoarding and saying, "I got mine."

Because what you got, is too tempting to those who ain't got, and those who got, but gotta have more.

Re:sampling bias

[pnutjam]

That's great if your starting out in a high price area, you can save, or sell some crap and roll into a low price area with a nest egg. I see it all the time.
It's much harder if you start out in a low price area.

Re:sampling bias

[pnutjam]

That's funny, I get that meeting crap from oldsters, when a quick IM would handle things. They also want to call instead of using email or text.

My guess is that your an unabashed fuckup and everyone feels the need to make it a meeting so they can gauge how much you understand and cover their asses.

Re: sampling bias

[Holladon]

Do you know the word "irrelevant"? It describes your comment.

yeah..

[roc97007]

It's important to say, IT people tend to be an isolated bunch to start with, but yeah, although I didn't apply the label "Millennials", it does seem that the young members of the team seem more ... brittle, I guess is the expression I'd use. And in IT, that's not a good thing.

Re:yeah..

[Comrade Ogilvy]

They may be more brittle than the seasoned individuals who self selected to stay in IT for 10 or 20 or 30 years. But are they actually more brittle as a group than the people who dipped their toes in the IT waters when you first started, many of whom removed themselves from the professional over the course of years because they could not hack it? I have no doubts there are aged based differences, but it is difficult to tease out the self-selection bias between generations.

Re:yeah..

[roc97007]

Good point. We are seeing a group before years of selection process.

Re:yeah..

[BarbaraHudson]

Considering the extent of ageism in IT (why keep an old-timer who will only work their 40 hours per week and won't put up with sh*t when we can hire 2 kids at half the price and burn them out) it's more likely that the pile of defective garbage is designed and implemented by the young'uns.

25 years ago software wasn't shipped with continuous patching over the Internet in mind. It had to mostly work as promised because the cost of sending out patch disks was a lot higher. Today, the attitude is "ship it, we'll patch it later." That attitude doesn't come from old coders and product managers who took pride in their work and were in it for the long haul, rather than the quick cash-out.

Re:yeah..

[tsotha]

You're not the first to notice.

Re:yeah..

[BarbaraHudson]

And the older you are, the less likely to put up with that sh*t. Ergo, there's a strong disincentive to hire older workers who will tell you you don't know jack when you're wrong and then prove it.

Re:yeah..

[BarbaraHudson]

How do you think we got to today's technology? It didn't spring, fully formed, from a bunch of millennials. Also, I haven't got a clue as to who you quoted, but it certainly wasn't me,

Re:yeah..

[BarbaraHudson]

If it couldn't be patched, they'd lose sales and face lots of returns. Can you imagine having to send a dvd to each user every patch tuesday?

Re:yeah..

[BarbaraHudson]

Absolutely not true. First off, losing data was a red flag even then. And computer viruses have been around since before the PC. And you don't need the internet for them to propagate - they can do so over the lan, or even via removable media (which with PCs meant a floppy disk). Antivirus programs have been around since the '80s.

Re:yeah..

[hairyfeet]

Sorry Barb but its NOT the method of delivery, that change just happened to coincide with the supercharging of the stock market thanks to a massive bubble that has been blown by the government pumping trillions into the market with 401Ks and 403Bs. When you have THAT much money trying to suck out the last dollar in profit? Quality no longer matters, all that matters is perception on the street.

This is why you get CEOs that literally sell the long term future of the company and the stock gets a bounce, why you can have IPOs that are 50 times what the company could ever realistically earn, and why companies can put out shit software that is damned lucky if its even functional, because as long as they can get something out the door there is a good chance the speculators will see this as a "positive indicator" and give the stock a bounce, which allows the CEO to cash out and move on before the excrement hits the bladed cooling device.

Re:yeah..

[BarbaraHudson]

That makes me feel like the parrot pining for the fjord. Sturgeon's Law is going to have to be revised.

Re:yeah..

[BarbaraHudson]

Has somebody patented the "This is a turd ... on the Internet" yet?

Yes

[Anonymous Coward]

They drive up the stress levels for the rest of us, coming in thinking they know everything, implementing stupid fucking ideas that never pan out, then buggering off to another company before implementation is complete and without any strategy for support or long-term maintenance. Their turnover rates are routinely cited as reasons why our jobs are being shopped off shore, which just adds to the stress.

Re:Yes

[captjc]

They drive up the stress levels for the rest of us, coming in thinking they know everything, implementing stupid fucking ideas that never pan out, then buggering off to another company before implementation is complete and without any strategy for support or long-term maintenance. Their turnover rates are routinely cited as reasons why our jobs are being shopped off shore, which just adds to the stress.

Funny, most of the people I know who are doing that are usually 40-50 year old MBA managers and CXX-titled executives.

Re:Yes

[nctritech]

It's not a good idea to generalize so strongly about an entire demographic like that, or at least not without providing some sources to back up some of the assertions so we can read them and achieve a better understanding of what you're saying.

Re:Yes

[captjc]

You either know a lot of fictional people, or your company is in trouble with so much executive turnover.

I can tell someone hasn't worked in many large multinationals. Some VP or CXX gets hired, brings in his buddies, implements some stupid crap policies, milks the position for what its worth and then leaves after 3-5 years for greener pastures and the cycle continues. Everyone else is left to clean up the mess left behind. Usually the next guy will see the resulting disfunction and hire some consultants who recommend layoffs and various reorganizations. It is the same thing over and over again.

When I was a kid, I used to read Dilbert and laugh. Now I read Dilbert and cry because that shit is all too real.

It's a small survey

[Anonymous Coward]

and the smaller the group the more irrelevant the resulting survey.

Um...

[fahrbot-bot]

Millennials are also expert users...

... define "expert" and qualify "users" - social-media apps on smartphones or things actually used in an office or real work/dev environment?

Re:Um...

[Jhon]

'... define "expert" and qualify "users" - social-media apps on smartphones or things actually used in an office or real work/dev environment?'

I'd say by "expert" they are familiar with the basic interfaces used on many operating systems. Do they know how to create a word document without hand holding? More than likely. Can they create a basic spreadsheet? Probably. Do they understand how to use office (MS or open or whatever version you pick) to its fullest? No. My experience is that many millennials seem to think "expert" knowledge of such software suites comes easy and they actually have it but get frustrated quickly when asked to do something complicated (like db links, mutli-sheet vlookup or *gasp* vb macros ).

I find it easier to train 40 y/o + how to arrange and manipulate their data than I do anyone under 30 years old. Well... maybe not easier, but more enjoyable. It gets old trying to train or teach someone without any real attention span.

Re:Um...

[TheGratefulNet]

the under 30 crowd cannot survive without checking their PHONES every few minutes.

it sort of reminds me of pidgeons and how they move their necks back and forth as they walk. would they be able to walk if you put a neck brace on them? ;)

would the younger crowd even be able to function if you took their phones away?

I know its a generalization, but it still strikes me as strange, every time I see someone walking down the street, face pointing downward, absorbed in some text or IM. its never an older person.

Re:Um...

[Anonymous Coward]

the under 30 crowd cannot survive without checking their PHONES every few minutes.

Had to fire a couple of under-30s over the last few months because while on the job they constantly texted while patrons stood by waiting for assistance. After the fourth time I shitcan them.

This problem is almost exclusive to millenials, yet they're so dense they don't seem to understand what they've done wrong even after you've explained it to them.

Re:Um...

[prowler1]

I find people like to state this as a fact, including the generation in discussion themselves. In reality though, they just know how to use the interface of the common applications but don't really understand how it works. It would be the equivalent of saying that the generation which grew up in the 80's and 90's were more technical because they knew how to use a video player.

Re:Um...

[frisket]

I'd say by "expert" they are familiar with the basic interfaces used on many operating systems. Do they know how to create a word document without hand holding? More than likely. Can they create a basic spreadsheet? Probably. Do they understand how to use office (MS or open or whatever version you pick) to its fullest? No. My experience is that many millennials seem to think "expert" knowledge of such software suites comes easy and they actually have it but get frustrated quickly when asked to do something complicated (like db links, mutli-sheet vlookup or *gasp* vb macros ).

Many (most?) of these so-called "expert" Millenials don't know shit. All they know is how to click on FB. Fortunately there are a few who have actually grokked IT, and those are the ones to employ. Unfortunately, most PHBs don't know this...

What I think

[Anonymous Coward]

It's stressful working for a doomed company. Most tech startups these days are doomed. Most millenials are the ones working at the tech startups.

Seems self-explanatory to me.

Re:What I think

[sound vision]

This is certainly true. The last job I had was at a company just getting out of the startup phase. The company wasn't doomed in the sense that it was going under, but that it got bought out by a large tech conglomerate that started making it a shitty place to work (don't even get me started on what they did to our customers.) It's disheartening to watch a company change before your very eyes - promotion opportunities drying up, good people fired for fabricated reasons and replaced with corporate drones, the rest of the good people jumping ship, a general atmosphere of shittiness around the office, and so many other changes (big and small) to let you know the new overlords don't care about the employees or even fully understand the services the company sells.

Born in 1989, if it makes any difference.

Junk science

[tomhath]

The survey, which started in 2012, just released its 2015 report, and found that of 78% of the IT workers surveyed consider their job stressful. That's up just 1% from 2014, but in 2013 the figure was 57% and in 2012, 67%.

Their numbers are jumping all over the place. I also don't see how they can jump to any conclusions regarding Millennials in the workplace after only four years with such a small sample, and they don't break it out by age group.

Someone needed to fill a column with some words - so here are some words. Come back next week for more words in this column

Entitlement

[TheRecklessWanderer]

So are we saying that the millenials aren't a bunch of entitled rude asses?

Demand for 24/7 systems without paying for them

[swb]

I think some of it is the demand that everything work, all the time, without any room for maintenance while at the same time not being willing to pay for the resources to deliver systems that can provide that.

Re:Demand for 24/7 systems without paying for them

[Anonymous Coward]

The reason you'll never find me working that job at a DC is that I'm the kind of guy that will say, "So let me get this right - you do so much business that you can't have any downtime at all, but a simple, relatively inexpensive means to protect that livelihood is too much to pay for?"

Re:Demand for 24/7 systems without paying for them

[Mal-2]

You: "Okay, let me rephrase this. The hard drive in your server is failing. Do you want to schedule downtime for replacement, or let it fail unpredictably? Your call."

Re:Demand for 24/7 systems without paying for them

[AmiMoJo]

That's not just the young, it's how everyone feels now. They are used to things being free on the internet, and having high reliability. Don't mistake the very young who have no money for being cheap either, kids have always been that way.

Re:Demand for 24/7 systems without paying for them

[ladysybil]

I don't work in a data center and still have that kind of boss.

Boss: We need more harddrive space
Me: we either buy new hds for the server and copy everything over or buy a NAS
Boss: We can't shut down for that long and I don't want to pay overtime
Me: The price for a NAS is $5k
Boss: Too expensive
...week later...
Boss: We need more disk space

Expert Users?

[hodet]

Give me a break. They have a high percentage of clueless users like any other generation.

Staffing Cuts

[Anonymous Coward]

During the recession, many firms cut jobs and made 10 people do the work of 15. That saves money and resulted in no quantifiable loss in productivity of the group, so the firms never rehired the people they got rid of. How would this not be a more stressful work environment?

Re:Staffing Cuts

[drinkypoo]

Let's not forget that IT was always a shitty, stressful work environment in most cases. A lot of people got out of it just because they got tired of being fucked over and then blamed for the fucking they were getting. It's a thankless, depressing, disgusting (anyone have budget for regular PC cleaning out there so they don't turn into dust monsters? hey, the PC monkey is part of the IT department, don't get all snooty network guys) job and it's no wonder that people don't want to do it unless they can get some good money. Other jobs with similar knowledge domains are highly paid, and in most of those, you don't have to crawl around on the floor ever unless you drop a contact lens.

Crap technology?

[bored]

Or maybe its all the crap, half baked technology being used over the last few years. I think we are sort of in a time period like the mid/late 90's where everyone was shoveling garbage windows apps out the door before they were done baking (and win9x itself was a pile of crap).

It seems to me, that over half the "web stacks" are just steaming piles of unfinished garbage. Same with a lot of the core infrastructure technologies that are all the hotness (see docker, openstack, etc).

So, its no wonder these things get stressful, someone hits a bug and suddenly they are trying to fix software that is way over their head on a deadline.

Re:Crap technology?

[skids]

Yeah I too think the technology has devolved over time. Certainly it is next to impossible to find a competently written manual for most things these days. There's no actual contract from vendors as to what's an actual feature and what's just an implementation side effect, software hits the marketplace with things broken that should not even have gotten *to* the QA department, much less past it, and there's no shortage of glossy brochures deceiving the high level managers into believing that everyone is using newer technology than you are with none of the issues/glitches that are causing your organization grief.

I do, however, worry about the data entry skills of the latest generation. You'd think being raised with tech would make them understand the importance of consistency and accuracy, but if my anecdotal experience is accurate they are even less thorough than the older people who had the excuse of not being familiar with the technology.

Re:Crap technology?

[BarbaraHudson]

I do, however, worry about the data entry skills of the latest generation. You'd think being raised with tech would make them understand the importance of consistency and accuracy, but if my anecdotal experience is accurate they are even less thorough than the older people who had the excuse of not being familiar with the technology."

That's why businesses are hiring people with autism. Having the ability to focus on something for an extended period of time is hard for people who expect everything to just work and have the attention span of a tweet.

"Do more with less"

[Culture20]

"Do more with less, and with fewer coworkers with less experience. You have four weeks of paid vacation, but no backup (fewer coworkers, less experience), so if there's a problem, you need to fix it on vacation, so your vacation needs to be a stay-cation." -New corporate management motto.

morale = morale - 4

Re:"Do more with less"

[xystren]

I think we are seeing the effects of the expected long hours - that 60-80 work week being a badge of honor; the effects of the dependency on IT services, without the budget/forethought to provide the needed staff/support and maintenance; the get it deployed and fix it later attitude; deliverables forcing the never having the time to do it right, but always time to do it again; unrealistic project management and project goals/deliverables; threat of outsourcing/off-shoring; corporate treating staff as resources rather than as people; etc., etc., etc.

It doesn't surprise me to tell the truth. One of the reasons that I got out of I.T. (although, no one truly never really leaves I.T.)

Re:"Do more with less"

[itsenrique]

It's like this in many other industries too, even thriving ones. It's the new squeeze the worker theme. The older generation is not immune, but successful older people are much less likely to feel the pinch because they have gone on to better jobs/positions.

Re:"Do more with less"

[RoknrolZombie]

"My phone plugs into a wall, so that's your responsibility too. You need to be available by phone in case our Sales department in Germany has any problems. Oh, and we need to have you come to the morning meetings every day to explain why the Windows update broke Exchange and why we haven't upgraded to Windows 8 yet - we're supposed to be cutting edge! By the way, our website is loading slow and we need you to figure out why. And we want to fire Larry - we're pretty sure he surfs porn sites on his lunch, so go ahead and dig something up. Oh, our vendor for is charging us too much, so you'll have to clean up the database yourself. Don't worry - we'll get you help, the janitor has just started ITT."

I won't, but I could, go on.

That being said, my wife is also a professional and her job is pretty stressful too. Of course, she makes considerably more and actually gets some time off once in awhile, but the stress is there.

Of course it's getting more stressful

[rsilvergun]

Except for a few top guys and the occasional person who wins the lottery in life pay is what is was 20 years ago after 20 years of inflation. Companies are merging left and right and everytime they do it's another round of layoffs. Offshoring and onshoring (via H1-B) are nuts. If you work in IT you're probably seeing something like a 70% Indian workforce with only the occasional American to fill a spot when they ran out of visas. Meanwhile it's a statisical fact that productively is way way up, meaning you're doing more work. Even if the tools are better it still means you're responsible for a hell of a lot more. How the hell would that _not_ be stressful?

Re:Of course it's getting more stressful

[King_TJ]

THIS! rsilvergun is 100% correct here.

I commented already on here about my thoughts on the original topic, but the bigger, underlying issue is definitely tied to the pay rate not really keeping up with inflation. With one of the career jobs most people consider "among the better paying", like I.T., it can really sneak up on you too.

I remember working for a place in the 90's doing server and PC support, feeling I was underpaid but enjoying the other aspects of the job enough not to care. But when I finally moved on, I realized I couldn't find work doing the same thing where my salary was going to be that much higher than what I was making before. (Combination of the dot com crash and economic depression around that time AND the fact that everyone wants to know what you made where you worked previously, and tries not to pay you much more than that.)

Like a lot of people though, I eventually settled for what they were offering so I could at least stay gainfully employed, and believed all the promises of future bonuses and compensation for hard work. But life marches on, even if pay raises don't.... All of a sudden, I'm older and have a whole family I'm responsible for. Things I never cared about before like having a bigger house with a few bedrooms in it and more than one bathroom became big deals (not to mention having to worry about living in a "good school district", vs. just living where you could live cheap).

Wound up not only switching jobs but relocating to get the "better paying" position, only to find cost of living was so much higher where I went, it negated most of the pay increase. One day, you just wake up and say, "WTF man!? I have 20+ years of experience, yet my overall lifestyle and buying power really feels about the same as what it was 10-15 years earlier. I know I'm *doing* way more complex stuff that should offer employers more value, but I'm just treading water."

Re:Of course it's getting more stressful

[MrKaos]

Exactly. All the employers seem to have the attitude "well you love this stuff, so you would do it for free - so you must love working like a slave. If you don't like working like a slave then you can't be very enthusiastic or motivated".

I've long been coming to the conclusion that IT is now fucked however I've also found that the places with mature business practices and decent project management were the ones that offer the least stress. That's because those ancillary to IT were skilled enough to manage the stakeholders, so the only stress you were under was to perform.

Generally if I see an organization filled with a lot of young people and a disregard for experienced people, I run. You can tell what sort of organization it is going to be before even working there. The narcissistic boss, the lead tech bully, the general oppression of people with good ideas, the female office administrator who is just nasty, the 'it's just a job' people and the emotionally intelligent people who are generally liked but just passing through because they realized they made a big mistake taking this job.

Becoming in-demand and a indispensable problem problem solver helps until you can fire them, usually with a smug polite smile, helps you maintain yourself from a mental health perspective. This is because most of them are bound to fail and spend big trying to get good, so if you give them sincere advice that they ignore which costs them money, they will never ignore you again. If find if I maintain a 'I'm here to take your money from you' attitude I can maintain some separation from the assholes and still get some enjoyment from IT work.

Of course, at the core of this argument is *why* IT is so stressful, and it is because it has been invaded by a lot of clueless assholes. You also have to acknowledge your own propensity to assholiness, I know I can be an asshole, so try hard not to be. Get rid of the assholes from IT work and you can get good work done. If you are working with assholes, you'll spend most of your time stressing and dealing with them and their mistakes.

Asshole management is *the* most stressful part of IT work.

Re: Of course it's getting more stressful

[Billly Gates]

You forget the most stressful ones.

The ones not in IT but pms, vps, management, and users who view you as a peon cost center and are happy to file a complaint the second you push back at unreasonable requests. After all they pay your salary! We need results and not complainers and if you won't do it due to my lack of planning then I will find someone who will!

Twice I was so angry I almost quit my job. However, during the great recession I took several month contract jobs so HR views me as a job hopper. Last thing I need is quit less than a year on my resume. Grrrh!

If I did not have bills or could move on due to that several year gap I would in such environments.

In time I will after my 3 years. Lesson for assholes in management are do not be surprised to see a mass exodus during boom times. No one owes me a job yes but no one owes you service either. Works both ways

Re: Of course it's getting more stressful

[MrKaos]

You forget the most stressful ones.

The ones not in IT but pms, vps, management, and users who view you as a peon cost center and are happy to file a complaint the second you push back at unreasonable requests. After all they pay your salary! We need results and not complainers and if you won't do it due to my lack of planning then I will find someone who will!

So true, I know exactly the type you are talking about!

Twice I was so angry I almost quit my job. However, during the great recession I took several month contract jobs so HR views me as a job hopper. Last thing I need is quit less than a year on my resume. Grrrh!

You may of noticed places aren't very well in control of their business processes, which offers a ripe opportunity to improve things which improve control when things fall apart. If they leave you alone, improve it so they pay you begrudging respect or at least leave you alone. If they continue to be assholes, two words : Manual Procedure, after all they need to protect the business data.

I think its a good way to say "Fuck off" in geek.

If I did not have bills or could move on due to that several year gap I would in such environments.

It does suck, I've always tried to frame it in the context of 'what can I get out of this' because sometimes you have to put up with it. I hope I'm past that now!

In time I will after my 3 years. Lesson for assholes in management are do not be surprised to see a mass exodus during boom times.

The morally superior ones who kind of make you feel a little ill. Like eating super greasy food and regretting every moment of the encounter.

No one owes me a job yes but no one owes you service either. Works both ways

Yes, strategic foot dragging has great uses. It would seem we have had some very similar circumstances!!

A question of pacing

[stox]

Many places are trying to adopt styles/methods/etc that are well suited to a startup in manic phase. They don't seem to realize that you can't keep this up indefinitely. Just dump bodies in the meat grinder, and code comes out the other end.

Re:Expert Users

[Jhon]

"Anyone who is calling a support line probably isn't an "expert" in the technology they're using."

Are we talking CONSUMER support lines or INTERNAL BUSINESS support lines? Because many of those calls are to report something is broken or not working as expected by people who are very familiar with what they do.

Millennials will have a very rough landing

[Opportunist]

I've seen it time and again, with the people around me who insisted to spawn child processes. The mix of helicopter parents who would not only ensure no "bad" experience would ever happen to their little precious but also made certain that anyone not seeing their brat as the special snowflake they are will get their banshee like fury, coupled with a school system that promoted feeling good and "everyone's a winner", where you would already get rewarded for showing up, whether you can actually accomplish anything or are essentially a useless waste of oxygen, that can only lead to a VERY hard fall when they come into contact with reality.

These people are by definition not going to be able to handle stress, or even any kind of frustrating experience, well. They are by no means prepared to it. And no, that's not true for everyone born in this age of overprotectionism, but it's never been as bad as it is today.

Re:Millennials will have a very rough landing

[metlin]

What rubbish. Plenty of cultures have parents who are involved in their children's education. My own parents were extremely involved, and as the only child, they put a lot of time and effort into my education and extracurricular activities. To this day, they are quite interested in my career, and are just as involved in teaching my own year old language and music.

That is not a statement on their children's capabilities. Tiger moms are common, and it just demonstrates responsible parents who are genuinely interested in their kids' well being.

My wife and I will certainly be taking an interest in our kids' education and lives, and that is not being overprotective -- that is good parenting.

Re:Millennials will have a very rough landing

[Oligonicella]

You're describing an entirely different kind of parent than he did.

Re:Millennials will have a very rough landing

[Opportunist]

A picture is worth a thousand words.

Re:Millennials will have a very rough landing

[Opportunist]

There is a difference between showing interest in a child's development and interfering with it. Further down the thread I posted a picture that shows the key difference quite bluntly, allow me to link it again. 1969 shows parents being involved in a child's learning progress. 2009 shows parents interfering with it. I hope the difference is easy to see.

Caring about your child is very laudable and shows good parenting. But it may not be taken so far that you try to "fight your kids' battles", so to speak. I see this development with too many young people. We have a growing tendency to keep our kids as kids and keeping them dependent on us rather than preparing them for an independent life. When you see people at 30 whose mom still packs them their lunch and makes their bed, and not because they just happen to be still living at home (not so impossibly out of necessity in this economy) but because they can't even do it themselves, there is something NOT right here.

Showing interest in your kids development is commendable. Essentially keeping them from developing by taking over their life is not!

"user experts"?

[izm]

So, yes...milenials are more immersed in technology, and have a better handle on how to use it, but that doesn't mean they have an understanding of how it works. To call every 20 year old with a cell phone an expert in mobile communications devices is a gross exaggeration. If they're more demanding its because they're used to it just being there...like water or electricity.

No. You're dumb. Stop being dumb.

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm in my thirties. I can attest that twenty somethings freak out like little bitches and make non-issues into epic sources of pointless, unnecessary stress.

Just like they did when I was a twenty something.

Just like the 40+ crowd did when they were twenty-something.

Just like they have been doing for generations.

You're seriously talking about kids who have just left University of Daycare and are stepping into the big bad real world for the first time. They're not established. They don't have stable careers. They have no real life experience. Give 'em a decade and I'm sure we'll be treated to another asinine buzzword declaring that yet another generation is completely incomprehensible to everyone in spite of simple human nature being very easily understood.

Oh, wait. You mean "Digital Natives", right?

[mmell]

You know - those kids who currently have over eight years experience with RHEL 7, nearly a decade with Windows Server 2012 - those kids who grew up with FaceSpace, WhoTube and YouTome? Oh, yeah . . . I remember them.

And for the record, we who have been in the industry long enough to remember a time without all these resources - we who are decidedly not "Digital Natives" - we're the ones who created FaceBox, YouScreen and WhoBook et. al. And we still have a much older word for "Digital Natives" - we still call 'em "n00bz".

Re:Think positive people!!!

[chipschap]

Come on, you left out global warming and save the whales.

This goes back to why one should hire an old fart

[Ronin Developer]

Stress in the workplace has always existed. Granted, this generation tends to communicate more but using tools such as Instagram and Twitter where the communications are short, don't convey much information and are non-personal. Granted, the older generation used email (after the memo went the way of the dinosaur)- primarily to put the discussion into a more formal written form. The phone or in-person conversation allows one to hear the emotion and concerns of the other party. It's easier to resolve issues when speaking with the other parties than to try to hash it out over email or some chat technology for all but the simplest of issues.

The other night, there was the discussion on why hiring an older person wasn't such a good idea with one person insinuated they (older workers) wouldn't work late nights on a regular basis to get the project done. Someone with experience knows that proper planning and design can alleviate most of those late night coding cycles. As such, they are inclined to find a better balance between home and work and still get their work done without burning the candle at both ends. They also know when late night exercises ARE useful or necessary.

What we old fogies have a hard time dealing with is being treated (along with our coworkers) like a disposable napkin. Workplaces that foster that attitude coupled with limited human interactivity breeds stress. And, that stress doesn't know generational boundaries.

Workplace changed too

[Moof123]

Workplace fun has all been drummed out of existence, for better or worse. Way back when companies had more picnics, beer bashes, and tolerated more hooliganism as ways to build teams and blow off steam. Those "good old days" had issues too, but the point is that fun has been squeezed out which also reduces chances for new guys to be brought into the fold and gel with the company.

All that said, this sounds a lot like another round of blaming the new generation for being inferior to the last one. Just as every previous generation has been judged as been inferior, and as will continue in perpetuity.

Re:Workplace changed too

[Maltheus]

Yeah, my company now has its picnic on a Sunday. Why on earth would I give up what little free time off I have to attend?

Re:It's the Millenials

[nctritech]

I disagree with lumping Gen Y in with millennials. The definition of the term is just stretched way too wide in most cases. You can't tell me that someone born in 1980 is going to approach the world the same way as someone born in 1995. Gen Y (the "early" millennials) grew up on BBSes, Commodore 64s, Apple //e computers with Oregon Trail, and NES consoles, while "late" millennials never knew a time that the Internet wasn't ubiquitous in society. To the early side modern technology is amazing; to the late side, it *just is*.

Well....

[Ol Olsoc]

There is something to be said for the millennial general approach to work. At least the ones we hired, all but two were pretty difficult to work with, and needed handling with kid gloves. And quit pretty regularly.

Some highlites:

I had one who wouldn't answer his phone. He insisted that he be texted. I put up with that for a few days, but eventually told him he had a choice of responding to my phone calls, or I would personally pay him a visit every time I needed to interact with him. If a person cannot interact except with text, he needs to get a job that requires only yes or no answers.

Another who would panic every time I spoke with him. This guy was bizarre. I can tell a person to go to hell in such a nice way that they look forward to the trip, but he just couldn't interact properly.

Another guy who went batshit nuts on me when I pointed at his laptop screen. He's busy screaming about "Dont touch my screen! I'm not going to tell you again!" I was so shocked at that inappropriate outburst that I was actually silenced for a few seconds.

Then there was the young lady who we hired, and immediately after getting hired, she goes on a month and a half vacation (unpaid of course) during the year she worked with us, she went on around 3 and a half months vacation, spent most of her time on Facebook, and wouldn't interact with anyone unless absolutely necessary. She quit after a year to go live at home because she found work too stressful.

There were other experiences, but those were the most unbalanced ones.

In general though, they have a tendency to come into the workplace with some overblown expectations, expecting very little interaction to people other than "their friends", and those via texting or facebook updates. They also have a rather exaggerated opinion of their own technical prowess, most believing that anyone of their parents age or older have very little clue about anything, and none whatsoever about computing. At best, we were there to provide support for them.

Amazingly enough, most were looking for a promotion and big raise after a year

The two who we the exception were both young ladies, who were simply incredible. One who was a talented illustrator, and also had a great work ethic. The other was simply amazing, who would finish her work, accurately, on time or sooner, and then ask if there was anything else she could do. I expect to see both as leaders some day.

We might ask why this happens?

One of the biggest culprits IMO, is the self esteem movement. Children were and are being told they are special (and they are) and taught to think very higly of themselves. from an early age these days.

What could be wrong with that?

One of the first things is that people with real self esteem issues tend to have those issues no matter how much "uplifting encouragement" they get. Its a neurosis.

Then we have the rest of the children. Its good not to hate yourself, and no doubt. But real self esteem comes from accomplishments, and not being told how special you are at every chance. High esteem with no real accomplishments is not a good combination. It tends to make you think that life is a sprint, and not a marathon.REal self esteem comes from doing good work and accomplishments, not being told you are special all the time.

Then we have the parents. Parents want the best for their children, but since the rise of the helicopters, and especially the dreaded blackhawk mother, (this is the one who does their children's homework for them so they can take their special classes out of school) We have parents who simply refuse to allow their children to grow up. Ever see those diaper commercials showing 6 year olds? Helicopter fodder.

So now we have the cellular//smartphone. The helicopters can now keep in constant contact and control of ther children. It's completely insane on college campuses now. These children are physical adults, but not at all mature. A friend who is a cou

Re:Well....

[Drewdad]

Have you considered that maybe instead of an entire generation being antisocial morons, your company just has crappy hiring processes?

Re:Well....

[cashman73]

I think a major problem with the current generation is, despite an increase in communications technology and cell phones, the younger generation has larger lost the ability to communicate and interact. Yes, they can text and they can communicate instantly with all of their "friends" in the world (100% of them, anywhere at any time). Though I do wonder how many people on one's Facebook are truly "friends". That being said, their communication is texting -- but 90% of human communication is non-verbal. They're not really communicating when you think about it; but they think they are. Go into any popular bar or restaurant and observe the crowds. The tables with the Boomers and GenXers will be mostly socializing and talking amongst each other -- interacting in person. The tables with the Milliennials will mostly have people staring down at the cell phones tapping away, and very few words will actually be said. If this is how these kids are socializing, I can only imagine how they are in the workplace.

Re:Well....

[Ol Olsoc]

Have you considered that maybe instead of an entire generation being antisocial morons, your company just has crappy hiring processes?

Perhaps, but then the whole helicoptering parent trend, and personal experience would have to be completely wrong. Now you have to explain why it is a completely mistaken idea.

And note, you are the one calling them "antisocial morons". I am saying that they have been victims of well meaning parents and society having gone horribly wrong by refusing to allow so many of them to become functioning adults. Mommy and daddy should never ever go along on job interviews, yes no?

My point isn't the olde fate yapping about "Kids today". My point is that a whole lot of parents should never have parented them the overbearing and overprotective way they did. A whole lot of social "adjusters" should never have given them a false sense of superiority. I'm saying it's my generations fault.

Re:Well....

[Ol Olsoc]

I think a major problem with the current generation is, despite an increase in communications technology and cell phones, the younger generation has larger lost the ability to communicate and interact. Yes, they can text and they can communicate instantly with all of their "friends" in the world (100% of them, anywhere at any time).

The Toyota Venzia commercial says it all

https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

The tables with the Milliennials will mostly have people staring down at the cell phones tapping away, and very few words will actually be said. If this is how these kids are socializing, I can only imagine how they are in the workplace.

One we had was constantly on Facebook. Fortunately she quit before we fired her.

And, a surprising number check their phones during sex. And not the one handed looking at porn version, but actual sex with another person.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...

Re:Well....

[Ol Olsoc]

While it's in poor form to leave your employer as soon as you're hired, I think this young lady had the right idea about work-life balance. Rather than live to work, we should aim to work to live.

She moved in with her grandparents, who as far as I know are still paying her way through life. Great gig if you can get it.

This is the problem. It's easy to have your version of a healthy work/life balance as long as someone else pays your bills for you.

Just wondering though, are her grandparents going to pay for her children, and their children?

Leisure is nice and all, but until everything is free, someone has to pay for it.

Re:Well....

[Ash-Fox]

I've seen so much more absurd non-sense from older generations. You've restored my faith in humanity.

probably a little of both

[The Grim Reefer]

I don't take much stock in this story due to such a small sample size, limited history, and that the numbers over the history of it don't even show a trend at this point.

Still, the "mystery" of IT has been diminishing for years as most people are at least familiar with computers now. The days of the BOFH are more or less over. So most people have a hard time accepting "I can't do what you want because digital Zeus says it can't be done". Everyone needs their own phone, OS, program, or whatever.

The younger generations are also always lazier than the older ones. It was true when the baby-boomers were young, then gen-x, and now millenilals. In some ways it's true. It takes a few years to develop a good work ethic. But it's often that the newest generation just has a different way of doing things because they view the world differently.

Re:probably a little of both

[cashman73]

While it is true that technology is more prevalent today and more people are using it, that does not mean that Millennials are any better than the rest of us at using it. In fact, I can see many examples where they don't know what in the hell they are doing. The ease of use of much technology today has actually had a negative impact. 20 years ago, we learned to do some amazing things with technology, and in order to make that happen, we had to code on the command line and jury rig stuff to get it to work together. Today, everything is all menu-driven in neat little GUIs, and everything works together. If it doesn't work, the product must be defective, and you take it back to the store to get a new one. The Millennials raised with this type of mentality never learn actual trouble shooting and problem solving skills. They learn that when the going gets tough, the tough go back to Best Buy for a replacement.

Dunno

[Greyfox]

But a lot of the IT people I talk to haven't had a vacation in years. Suggest that they take one and you get a stunned pause and then you can actually sense the wave of relief coming off them as they start to think about it. I took a three day weekend skydiving down in Phoenix after going about three years without a vacation and the change to my outlook was amazing. Taking time off and staying in town doesn't seem to have the same effect.

Re:No. You're dumb. Stop being dumb.

[nctritech]

Someone give this coward some insightful points. Well said.

As much changes, it stays the same.

[Anonymous Coward]

I've been in IT support since 1997, the users today are just as dependent as they always have been. The comment, "Millennials are also expert users...", is BS. P&G hires a lot of college interns and they hardly know how to use a computer beyond surfing the web and yet the company is pushing for more and more self support options. They tell the users to use a website to unlock/change their password and not to call the helpdesk as they will be charged for the helpdesk to unlock/reset passwords...we see a few people every day needing password help, from young to old. Millennials are becoming more demanding but only because they don't want to have to support themselves or figure something out, they just want it resolved and don't want to hear that it will take time. As far as the "awe" goes, users are still in awe of repairs even when you just reseated the battery on a laptop to get it to power on, IT support has mostly always been treated as "the help".

Re:It's the Millenials

[sexconker]

Nope. Marketers re trying to increase "millennials" to encompass Generation Y and even Generation X, but that doesn't make it so.

Re:Think positive people!!!

[Em Adespoton]

hole in the ozone, reduce, re-use, recycle, crack babies....

Re:Oh, wait. You mean "Digital Natives", right?

[Toth]

I saw the string "n00bz" and its variations online in the days of dial up at 1200 baud and bang path emailing. I even used it myself once or twice. I didn't see or use it IRL though. We were treated like rock stars by the users. This was probably partly due to the low hanging fruit of a 25 person administrative office and no computers or "ceremonial" computers running a single industry-specific application.

I'd go in after office hours and locate the trash baskets with the most adding machine tape. The next day I'd sit the user for an hour and bring in a computer running Lotus 123 or that Borland app whose name I forget. and show them how to use it. It was not uncommon to cut the labour time in half. A month or so later when we were implementing a custom-written app with changes in the code written the night before and the um .... occasional... user-annoying bug. The users were our friends and partners.

The kids today on our first level support are occasional treated like crap by users/customers. Important executive is outraged because his new mobile has email on it he specifically remembers deleting on his old one. I know the sample size is less than TFA but my feeling is they are not stressed and don't hate their jobs. I do sense more stress in middle managers and the folks that the customers bitch to when they are unhappy with the service.

I was an early adopter of all the Usenet.die.die, mud, etc. I even used ICqueue. Today - I have a gmail account, /. and perhaps one or two other blogs.

I'm still employed by the same company for almost 30 years and I have NO stress in my job.

Kind of an interesting theory, but ....

[King_TJ]

I have a few thoughts of my own on the subject, based on my own work situation, and they don't quite line up with theirs.

First off, yes... I would say that at least for our workplace, stress levels in I.T. have generally increased over the last few years. (I work as part of a 4 person I.T. team for a marketing firm that has several locations strategically placed around the country, close to the majority of clients they have or want.)

Marketing is definitely a business where lots of millennials are hired. Our I.T. group and upper management are really the only people in the company of an older generation than that, other than a few random exceptions.

But to claim the I.T. stress levels are correlated with the millennial generation's lack of in-person communication skills? No... at least for our industry, that's not the case at all. You can't be successful working in marketing for us if you're not an exceptionally good in-person communicator. I know I'm far less comfortable chatting up random people in social situations than any of the millennials we've got working as creative directors, producers, designers, etc. Maybe we're constantly hiring the exceptions to the rule because of the nature of the business ... but regardless, that's the situation for the people our I.T. group supports.

Where I see stress levels climbing has more to do with people expecting more and more from the computerized tools they're given. For example, when I started working for these guys, several of our offices literally spent 90% of their day buried in Outlook. Everything revolved around email correspondence and scheduling meetings or appointments. Sure, they had the occasional need for the rest of the Office suite (especially PowerPoint or Keynote for our Mac users, if they were preparing a presentation for a client), but the vast majority of support calls or issues were "Why did my email bounce?", "It says my mailbox is full!", "I can't find this message I know I saved someplace in here earlier today.", or "So and so received my calendar invite 3 times in a row for some reason." Stuff like that, along with trouble opening various email attachments they received.....

Looking at how things have evolved now? We ran into issues where some of the huge Word templates they use regularly to produce client proposals got too big to keep editing reliably inside Word. (Lots of copy/pasted graphics in them and all that.) So we now paid for a cloud based service designed just for such proposals. Instead of constantly filling mailboxes with email attachments getting shared around, we set up DropBox for Teams so I.T. creates any of the "top level" folders anyone requests and makes sure the proper folks are given read or read/write access to those shared resources. As we've grown, the Finance department required better automation so they could process all the invoices in a timely manner as offices generate them. So they put in dedicated scanning stations at each office with document capture software that goes to "watched folders", with special software that can toss them into their accounting system as it sees new ones appear. The original few, designated office people with copies of Adobe Acrobat (full version, not reader) kept growing as more users saw the benefits of being able to actually edit a PDF document on their Windows PC (or saw Mac users doing it natively with Preview and asked why they can't have the same capabilities). So that led to buying Creative Cloud with user accounts I.T. again has to manage.

On top of that, one of the offices is trying to get more serious about offering in-house video rendering capabilities instead of outsourcing it all the time, so now we're starting to build and support a rendering farm and high end video packages on the clients.

What we haven't done is hire a single new I.T. staffer to help with any of this.... We push for it all the time (especially when one of us is out sick or on vacation and the pressure is really on). But at the end of the day, manag

I dont think what we live today in IT existed

[Anonymous Coward]

I've been :

Lured to a permanent position and fired during the trial period for something that should have been factured on a project basis

Forced to accept to live in a motel for months and working crazy hours because the company was paying a premium and expecting it but i was subcontracted i was not.

Harassed to leave without compensations. Explaining me that else they would fire me for an imaginary fault and that i would have to reverse the charges.
Actually twice, the first time i took it to court, but the second time knowing the stress and lawyer costs, i just asked for a low compensation amount.

Being described a job as integrating new customers into the company IT, in fact i had to put everything in place for one then train foreign
peoples so they could take my job.

Basically none of this would have been a problem if i knew beforehand so i could reject the offer and not leave some good job, been working in corrects conditions or paid accordingly to a short contract or difficult position.

Obviously in the middle you get crazy, angry, buzzwords managers. Reverse pyramid organizations with more CxO than "subcontracted" workers. But i think this part always existed.

I fell that the IT world is sooo fucked up.

Commoditization

[lymond01]

Back in the 90s, IT people were magicians. Now they are plumbers. So much of today's infrastructure relies 100% on IT support -- people can't just write it down, or file it manually. IT folk are in charge of a giant, critical piece of the everyday workload. But expectations are that it will just work, and that things will keep moving forward as new technologies arise. Back in the day, IT could handle an entire 500 person company with 2 or 3 people -- it was all printers and email. Now it's files and databases and remote access and web apps and mobile apps and security and policies.

The IT folk who are more stressed are the ones who haven't staffed up. I've no comment on the younger set...I'll defer to Socrates as people have suggested.

No

[plopez]

From my experience nothing has changed in 20 odd years. The same insane schedules, clueless managers, evil marketing people, etc. still rule the day. Nothing ever changes. The same mistakes made 20 years ago are made over and over again. People come along offering to make things easier with a magic bullet, and it works as they get rich and it makes their lives easier.

As far as 'Millennials' go from my experience it is a mixed bag, some are good and some aren't. There is the natural over exuberance and naiveté but after a few years of Software Development Hell (or perhaps 'Ground Hog Day') we manage to beat that out of them.

Multiple Issues

[Livius]

I think that IT work is getting more stressful, but that is only one factor among many for the increase in stress. Some of it is that there is no longer easy money for easy IT work, like there was during the dot com boom, some of it is that millennials really do have an inflated sense of entitlement, and some of it is that the economy is pushing management to demand more in terms of results while those results are getting more difficult to measure. Contemporary IT work involves a lot of very complex web-based work where the tools really are inadequate. There's a fabulous opportunity for someone who can fix the Internet.

Re:Nice generalization streak going on

[Em Adespoton]

What's up with generalizing whole age groups nowadays?

I'm well under 30....

As you get older, you realize that generalizing whole age groups always exists. I remember being in situations where I was the "token young person" when I was in my mid-30's. The others were continually surprised when I took my position seriously and contributed something of value.

And this was years ago. Having read a lot of literature, I know that such gripes about age generalization goes back at least as far as the written word.

By the way, not everybody who's over 30 generalizes whole age groups ;)

BYOD

[mshieh]

Bring Your Own Device definitely makes things more complicated, but that has nothing to do with the age of workers.

Back in my day, we all died

[PopeRatzo]

When I was a kid, we didn't have any of those sissy antibiotics. When we got sick, our grandmothers would perform extreme unction on us and then leave us on the roof overnight. If we were strong enough to climb down in the morning we got breakfast. If not, we got buried. It made us learn the meaning of a dollar, because for a dollar my sister would bring me a snack up there and leave the ladder against the side of the house. And there was none of this mp3 youtube nonsense. If we wanted music, we had burn the barn down and dance to the crackling fire. I can still beatbox a three-alarm blaze. And sex? We didn't have sex. We just set the women folk up on the roof and if they had the strength to climb down in the morning, grandpa would take them out to the barn and make them pregnant. And that also taught us the meaning of a dollar, because for a dollar, he'd let us hide under the hayloft to watch for Zeus to appear in the shape of a bull to impregnate the females. And if any of us showed any visible signs of arousal, we got beaten with a sickle and our parts were left on the roof to die.

The kids these days don't know how good they got it with their quarter million dollar school loans to prepare them for jobs that don't exist or go to internet scammers in Bangalore. They don't realize how lucky they are not to have to worry about privacy any more, because by god there is none. They make me sick, with their rising sea levels and paint thinner in the water supply and multinational tech companies tracking their every movement. Because when I was a kid, my total lack of self-awareness convinced me that I got where I am today only because of my hard work and talent.

Re:Back in my day, we all died

[germansausage]

Post of the week! You win the internet.

Re:Back in my day, we all died

[maestroX]

+1 for coaxing talent and hard work as the result of domestic violance, rape and tyranny.
You should consider a career in marketing.

Re:Back in my day, we all died

[fluffernutter]

When you got sick, you were allowed to take a day off. That is not always accepted any longer. It is on paper sure, but you still have to have your shit done by noon when you wake up sick.

Management, not Millenials

[Todd Knarr]

It's not the Millenials. They're a bit more demanding, yes, but not significantly so compared to all the other groups of clueless users I've dealt with over the last 3 decades. Mostly they can be dealt with by telling them that I'd love to be able to do what they want but management's refused to allow it so they need to go talk to $AppropriateExecutive and convince him to change the policies on it. That gets them out of my hair.

Mostly the stress comes from management wanting more and more from fewer people with fewer resources, less funding and lower salaries. Instead of being skeptical, they buy into the salespeople's lies completely and then yell at IT when what was delivered doesn't do what was promised and never will. And gods help you if you do manage to prove the salesperson lied, because then it's your fault management bought into it. This from management's not a new thing, I've watched it growing since the early 90s.

Re:Management, not Millenials

[frisket]

It's not the Millenials. They're a bit more demanding, yes, but not significantly so compared to all the other groups of clueless users I've dealt with over the last 3 decades...

I think the point is that it's the Millenials who have gotten jobs in IT; they're actually supposed to know stuff.

Re:Management, not Millenials

[Todd Knarr]

People who know stuff don't cause me any stress. It's people who think they know stuff but don't that cause the most stress, and I haven't found Millenials to be much worse in that regard than any other age group. More often it's that they do know and what they're asking is entirely reasonable, it's just prohibited for silly reasons. Eg., they come in wanting their phone to just work with the Exchange server. Yes, it should just work. Exchange supports all the protocols needed for it to just work. I've argued repeatedly in favor of that but upper management thinks they know better and won't permit POP3/IMAP4 to be turned on, after all they're open protocols and anything open has to be an open invitation to hackers to walk into our network (grumblegriemutterstupidsuits tiesmustcutoffbloodtothebraingrowlgnashgrumble).

That's not it

[Rolgar]

There's a book about generational cycles called Generations that talks about how there is a 4 generation cycle that repeats itself every 80 years or so cause by shared life experiences that are shaped primarily by the emotional and attitudes of society in general and their parents in particular. So, the Millenials have been shaped in attitude by 9/11, the current international conflicts, and their parents' reactions to these events.

It's called Strauss-Howe generaitonal theory. Each generation is one of 4 types (the wikipedia page has the basics, the book is interesting). So what we have is the departure of the Baby boomers from the work force and the arrival of the Millenials and the maturing of Gen X from young adult to mature adult. With this change comes a change of attitude. So, most likely what we are experiencing (saying this as an X'er) is Gen X taking the reigns from the Boomers, and establishing efficiency and control mechanisms on the work place, within a Crisis Turning. Sometime early in the next decade, the next turning will start, as the last boomers turn 65 and we will begin a new High cycle, much like the period between the end of World War II and The assassination of JFK, the bookends of the last High.

They predicted our current Crisis environment (I read their later book, the Fourth Turning, from 1997) with a start date between 2000 & 2005, 18-23 years from 1982, the beginning of the last Turning.

Re:Oh, wait. You mean "Digital Natives", right?

[Ryanrule]

"nearly a decade with Windows Server 2012" old man getting senile

Re:It's the Millenials

[lgw]

45-65 = Boomers
65-85 = Gen X
85-05 = Millenials
05-25 = Digital Natives

Simple as that. No room for a Gen Y. Heck, people stopped having kids by 20 a while back, so the Millenials might stretch out to people born today.

stress

[bigdavex]

I find it's the millennials that are getting more stressful.
 

Actually, it's a great example.

[tlambert]

Bad example, this was written just before the collapse of the Athenian empire, so the guy had a point. Socrates himself was tried and executed by the invading forces.

Totally historically inaccurate, but let's address whether it's a bad example; it's not.

Actually, it's a great example.

The current article was written just before the collapse of the American empire.

People who really had it tough ...

[drnb]

We had very similar childhoods it seams. I'd like to add one thing.

When I was in my college years and facing a banking crisis and economic downturn upon graduation I thought: "It could be worse. I have it so much better than my grandfathers and great-uncles who spent their childhood years in the great depression and their college-age years fighting from Normandy to Germany and Guadalcanal to Japan." Literally, front lines, not in the rear with the gear. Growing up around people who actually did have a tough life gave me some perspective on mine.

Damn Lies!

[s.petry]

Bad example, this was written just before the collapse of the Athenian empire, so the guy had a point. Socrates himself was tried and executed by the invading forces.

Good grief, all you have to do is read Plato's "The Apology" to see that your claim is pure bullshit. Nothing is even close to correct in your statement.

Re:Damn Lies!

[Headw1nd]

If anything, Socrates was executed for being sympathetic to the the Spartans, who had conquered Athens five years earlier.

Re:Damn Lies!

[s.petry]

Wrong, read the books. Socrates was executed because he pissed off a guy with a lot of money. I really don't understand why people make up fairy tales when the facts are at your fingertips. All you have to do is read a bit, but I guess that is expecting way too much.

Technology, same effort, more productivity

[drnb]

The latest generation works harder, for longer hours, ...

Not according to what my grandparents have told me.

... with higher productivity, ...

The last 5,000 years of history shows that improved technology increases worker productivity given the same worker effort.

... than any other generation before them and is the first generation in history to be worse off than their parents.

Grossly exaggerated and mis-stated but true for the post WWII era, which is a very very small portion of even US History. However in its proper perspective a valid point.

They're stressed because they're being fucked AND blamed for it at the same time.

Its dishonest to say they have no contribution to the problem. There are genuine problems related to social skills, focus, entitlement, etc. Every generation leaves college thinking they know everything and have to get slapped upside the head and told know you don't. To be told that at best all you've done is show a potential to learn, now do this job for 10 years and we'll re-evaluate how much you know. Part, and I admit this is only part of the problem, is that past generations had an easier time adjusting to this reality.

And to be honest this generation is not lost. With a sufficiently hard slap upside the head they can get past all that coddling and hippie BS. Those who got such a wakeup in the military have shown that they can perform as well as those of previous generations. For the rest, coming to grips with reality will just take longer than past generations.

Re:Technology, same effort, more productivity

[Shadow of Eternity]

You're joking right? The biggest fuckups I've had to work with are people who came out of the military thinking they're better than everyone else and waving around their More Hooah Than Thou attitude problem.

Re:Technology, same effort, more productivity

[drnb]

You're joking right? The biggest fuckups I've had to work with are people who came out of the military thinking they're better than everyone else and waving around their More Hooah Than Thou attitude problem.

The military, like every segment of society, has their a-holes.

The recent vets I know are not as your describe and are not that unlike Vietnam era vets that I started working for back in the day and the WWII vet I knew as a child (teachers mostly, they were generally retiring as I entered the work force).

Re:Technology, same effort, more productivity

[Electricity Likes Me]

The latest generation works harder, for longer hours, ...

Not according to what my grandparents have told me.

Your grandparents lived in a time when you got a job, held it for the rest of your life if you wanted to, and from that earned an income to support a stay-at-home spouse and multiple children.

Re:Technology, same effort, more productivity

[dbIII]

Yes, the failed NCOs and Officers who found that either a lack of ability or discipline meant they had hit their peak rank so their best bet was being bullies in private enterprise. They are so full of wind that it's hard to stand up to them but 99% of it is just wind. They give the rest a bad name. See the story of Enron as to how a few of them taken seriously can make a workplace incredibly toxic - the sort of shit the military at least tries not to let happen, but once they are loose and everyone is scared of them anything goes.

Re:Technology, same effort, more productivity

[drnb]

The latest generation works harder, for longer hours, ...

Not according to what my grandparents have told me.

Your grandparents lived in a time when you got a job, held it for the rest of your life if you wanted to, ...

Bull. Businesses failed back then too. And for successful companies holding a job for a long time was mostly due to working your ass off to keep that job. There was no guaranteed employment. You had your job as long as the boss was happy. My grandfather once talked back to the boss and he was immediately fired. The laws were not that different from today.

... and from that earned an income to support a stay-at-home spouse and multiple children.

True to a degree but they also lived a much more frugal lifestyle. Didn't go for McMansions, picked a home or apartment that was well within their means. Didn't fund their life on credit cards. What little debt that generation took on would be a home mortgage and it sure as hell wasn't some variable rate loan, the thought of not knowing what a loan payment might be in 7 years was unthinkable. Stay at home moms is also mythologized a bit. When kids were older (10-12) there were often part time jobs. Those part time jobs were quite significant to the family lifestyle, ability to send a kid to college (State U not Ivy League) or a good trade school, etc. Don't confuse 50s era TV families with blue collar reality. My grandfather taught me to weld but my grandmother taught me to solder. She did electronics assembly during the war and in some part time jobs when my father was old enough. When she couldn't get a daytime shift that coincided with school at a good job like that she worked much more menial jobs that did offer such a shift. There was no this job is below my skill level or dignity. My other grandparents, all my great-uncles and great-aunts all have their own stories of a similar nature. The women were grocery store checkout ladies, department store clerks and the five that lived in or near a particular town all worked at the local garment factory for a time.

Is it more difficult today, yes, but perhaps not to the degree you think.

Re:Technology, same effort, more productivity

[pnutjam]

Don't gloss over how much easier it was to live a frugal life then. Every company wasn't trying to dip a finger into your wallet with recurring charges. You weren't brainwashed from birth to consume. Advertising psychology was in it's infancy.
There are plenty of other examples. You can't just toss up your hands and claim your grandpa and I are playing from the same deck.

Re:Technology, same effort, more productivity

[drnb]

Every company wasn't trying to dip a finger into your wallet with recurring charges.

No they were dipping their finger into your wallet through things like company script, company coins, company stores. Historical "decks" were different, however they were rarely fair, they methods of screwing the worker/consumer were just different.

Re:Technology, same effort, more productivity

[pnutjam]

Yes, and brave men banded together and outlawed those practices. Thank god for Unions, right?

Re:Technology, same effort, more productivity

[drnb]

Yes, and brave men banded together and outlawed those practices. Thank god for Unions, right?

Absolutely. But as my grandfather also taught me the unions of those days were very different from the unions of my grandfather's later working years. By then the unions no longer represented the workers, they like wall street, were just another racket. Union reps were no longer workers but "professionals' always seeking to protect the revenue and status and power of the union organization not the union worker. As a nearly 40 year union worker he was very disappointed in the direction unions went, glorious beginning but sold out to criminals and politicians in the end.

Handshake and a "good game" not a trophy

[drnb]

They seem to feel "owed" by society a job, and to be treated nicely and fairly.

These are reasonable expectations of a functioning society. That these expectations are considered to be ridiculously entitled is a reflection on society rather than the people who hold them.

Only because you do not understand the true context of the original statement. Perhaps it was stated poorly, but the job they feel they are owed is the type of job they aspire too. So not "job" in general but "aspirational job". Previous generations had an easier time accepting that they will start with a non-aspirational job, have to spend time proving themselves and outperform others to get such aspirational jobs.

To look at it another way, if we don't aspire to a fair and just society where people who want to work can find work, then we've really lost the plot. Not to mention that work was easier to find back in the day, and perhaps we are the entitled ones, begrudging the younger ones wanting what we had on a plate.

Right because this is the first post-WWII generation to graduate amid a banking crisis and/or economic downturn. Not.

I didn't always get congratulated JUST for trying

Noticing children's effort rather than results is better for producing successful adults, as it instils perseverance rather than a sense that your skills are innate and immutable.

Perseverance gets you a handshake and a "good game" not a trophy. Making the olympic team gets you a congratulations and a "very well done" not a medal.

Nope

[s.petry]

My actual statement to TFA is that it's impossible to measure so impossible to make any such claims. I don't know anyone that has worked in the IT industry and become successful without putting in loads of work early in their career. I spent about a decade working damn near every waking hour. Everyone I know in IT was doing the same thing at about the same time/age.

Claiming this generation works harder is a bullshit generalization, just like claiming my generation worked harder would be a bullshit generalization. I know some millennials that put in a lot of work, but I see quite a few that don't as well. I don't expect them to last long working in IT, because it takes a shit ton of work to gain enough skills to become a commodity.

The second part that becomes impossible to measure is how I rate people I no longer work with? After 30 years of work in IT I don't interface with entry level people very often. Do I have more knowledge than them? Absolutely, I have been at this for 30 years and am very good. Do I have to, or want to, work 90 hour weeks still? Hell no! I did my time in the trenches. Does that mean an entry level person does more than I do? No! Part of the reason I don't have to work 90 hour weeks is that I am more efficient than I was as an entry level person. My tasks are different today, but if I have to help someone with a bit of code I don't have to spend much time looking things up and experimenting.

Kept farther from reality need more time to adjust

[drnb]

The point being made here is that there is nothing new under the sun. People pissing and moaning about *how times have changed* are full of it. Nothing has 'changed' except the pace of events.

You are having a forest and trees moment. Yes nothing changes, but the point is that when a society gets to the point that self-indulgence *greatly* exceeds a sense of duty and obligation to society then that society falls. Things sometimes change for the worse. And certain behaviors are a recurring theme prior to such changes.

I'm not saying we are there. For example many of those of the current generation who went into the military got past the coddling and fake trophies and perform as well as any other generation. And some have faced the hard realities of the present and learned to deal with it, getting past their upbringing. Maybe its more a matter of the current generation needing more time to adjust to reality since they were kept farther away from it.

IT Work Is Stressful

[crywalt]

IT is work getting more stressful. Three words: World Wide Web. Or if you prefer more detail: PHP, JavaScript, Content Management Systems, and malware ravaging the entire network looking for one more server with a hole in it.

It's the millenials

[msobkow]

The millenials are so used to instant gratification that they are completely unreasonable users.

Luxury!

[Hognoxious]

A DVD? I can remember applying patches with a soldering iron that ran on coal.

They took the Tea Party seriously...

[Nova Express]

...because the Tea Party took scalps . They defeated Republican incumbents in primaries. They ended political careers. That's what forced Republican office-holders to take them seriously.

As far as I can tell, an Occupy-backed candidate (if there even is such a thing) hasn't defeated a single Democratic incumbent. As such, the Democratic Party can continue to ignore them the way they ignore black voters.

Perhap young people are just more emotional?

[toadlife]

I'm a good test case as I'm 36 now, and have worked in IT in the same institution since I was 20.

Early on in my career work stressed me out a lot more than it does today, even though today I am responsible for many more things.

I just think as you get older, the intensity of your emotions mellows out.

These stressed out Millennials are just...young.

Mod parent up!!

[MikeTheGreat]

Parent poster is incredibly insightful (and articulate AND concise)! I wish I had mod points!!

Gen X - Gen Y - Millennial differences

[Etcetera]

Whether it's due to accelerating change, proximity, or whatever, there's arguably a pretty large difference even across those 10 years or so. Born in '79, I graduated HS in 1996, which puts me right at the borderline of Gen X and the early Gen Y's. I spent several years working at McDonald's before leaving college to work in the tech industry (just in time for the dot com implosion, natch).

I could more or less imagine friends of mine over the next few years also working at McDonald's... I can't imagine college friends now (born in the early/mid 90's) doing it -- it's seen as beneath them.

Re:Gen X - Gen Y - Millennial differences

[Gr8Apes]

They'll work at Starbucks, though. But yes, earlier on we took whatever we could get as a job. Parents weren't giving you a free ride (or mine didn't) and I worked from high school on. Paper routes, mowing grass and taking care of yards, etc. Working fast food. None of those jobs around me are done by your average teen.

Re:It's the Millenials

[Etcetera]

65-85 = Gen X
85-05 = Millenials
05-25 = Digital Natives

Gotta disagree on that, judging from totally unscientific personal experience watching each incoming set of undergraduates at my local state university.

65-80 = Gen X
80 - 88 = Gen Y (if that)
90+ = Millennials

For political and cultural purposes, becoming "politically aware" somewhere around 2006 is about where I'd draw the line. A quick determiner is to ask them how much they remember about 9/11. If it's vague things about the adults being worried, or their 3rd grade teacher bringing them in for an announcement, they're probably a Millennial.

no...

[Mirar]

I'd say no, but we might be getting better at noticing?

many causes

[ruir]

However, first IT or the sought after upper the ladder tech jobs (not bullshit management), are for people with experience, and older. IT is no longer for people who dabble in it like when our generation started, but for more qualified people. Also due to the "economy", often one tech is doing the work of between 3 and 5 people and that accounts for more stress. People nowadays also worry too much about things that we consider minimal, and have to do a ruckus and a meeting for nothing, and for things that are routine. (...)

Much blame to go around

[fluffernutter]

Mellenials may be whiners, yes. But I think there are two problems. There are also many companies that are trying to do more with less.

expert users

[cascadingstylesheet]

Millennials are also expert users,

Brutha, please ...

They are users, sure. They have gadgets.

The same kind of people who were not nerdy enough to have gadgets when I was a kid all have gadgets now. That makes them users, not expert users, I assure you from painful experience.

Re:Oh, wait. You mean "Digital Natives", right?

[sound vision]

The idea that "IT" itself has changed seems to underlie your post. I would agree with that entirely. Today, measuring by volume of jobs, IT typically means something like Geek Squad or a call center where you walk 60 ungrateful people each day through how to use Outlook. That type of work is not interesting or stimulating, or even a neutral get-'er-done laboring experience. It's straight up maddening. The atmosphere at the office is impersonal or non-existent. Your time is micromanaged to the extent that 100% of your shift is spent dealing with BS, apart from your legally-mandated breaks. Your supervisor isn't much better off, he hardly has time to exchange a couple of words as you walk by, much less an actual meeting. And forget about being promoted anywhere better yourself, because all those opportunities dried up after the corporate buyout.

Then there's the other stuff that people bring up all the time in these articles: stagnant wages, offshoring, and generally treating employees like shit. Being at the same company for 30 years is unheard of now. If you managed to get a foot in the door somewhere back in the 80s, and that company is still around and still valuing their employees, that's like having won the Powerball. The majority of IT jobs these days aren't designed to be liveable; it's only a matter of months before burnout sets in. Virtually no one makes it past single-digit years at the same job - low single digits. At my last employer of several hundred people, I could count the guys who had been there more than 3 years on one hand. "IT" has gone mainstream now that computers have crept into every aspect of every life. IT is the new fast food.

if (no data) { random_speculation() }

[fygment]

Small sample size without accounting for age ... and we make a sweeping age-related conclusion.

Seriously ?

Yes

[goarilla]

We are selfish and spoiled.

"Do more with less" is the mantra

[Drewdad]

I hear it all the time from vendors and at conferences. "IT is being expected to do more with less."

Our IT budget has been flat for five years, and we're supporting double the number of employees.

Do we have difficult users? Yes. I haven't noticed any correlation between difficulty and age, though.

Bullshit

[Hognoxious]

Millennials are also expert users

of Basefuck & Cunty Crush

and "are no longer in awe of technology specialists

Probably due to the Dunning Krueger effect.

and therefore demand higher service levels,"

In other words, they whine until someone wipes their ass.

Or maybe...

[EdwardFurlong]

Millennials have never known anything but a 15 year recession, their entire working career. I wonder also if they breakdown stress levels by age. What kind of job in IT is an 18 year old working anyway? Where I work, after you have been there 20 years it seems like it is almost impossible to be fired. Everybody else gets paid 1/3 as much and does 3X the work.

Millennials are expert users

[Anonymous Coward]

Not the ones I've met. They're experts in posting FB updates, but most of them are dumb as rocks and can't write a sentence.
Also they think a 3hr working day is about all they can take.
Useless.

Demanding?

[Euphorinaut]

From my perception as someone who answers a phone for account lockouts a lot, and resolves most of them by asking if they had capslock on while they were entering their password, I'd say the article is spot on in suggesting that when a millennial calls, they're more likely to have a complex problem, but as an IT worker I fail to see how near zero call volume for millenials having simple PIC(person in chair) problems should be stresfull to me. Isn't the least stresfull call the one that doesn't exist because the problem never existed? Sounds like someone noticed that young people always have more complicated problems when they call and is now making bizarre conclusions about it.

95% of people now own a computing device.

[Peterus7]

Back in the 90s, 5-10% of people had a computer, and that 5-10% of people knew how to use it. Now, everyone has some type of computing device, but the percentage of tech literacy hasn't gone up (especially with the boomer generation.) Dealing with a much larger, scarier, black boxy world is a hell of a lot more frustrating than it used to be.

helicopters

[fragilemaleego]

People born in the late nineties seem to have little interest in driving or working to make a car payment until college, or later. This is completely foreign concept to a Generation Xer like me. We wanted freedom and independence away from parents as early as possible, not smothering and support well into out twenties or thirties. It is naturally difficult for these two groups of employees to understand each other.

users and consumers.

[Anonymous Coward]

Millennials are also expert users, and "are no longer in awe of technology specialists and therefore demand higher service levels,

This is not so!!! Millennials know how to use IT tools but do not know how the tools work. I have worked in IT for over 30 years now and have found the next generation to be so totally out of touch with how it works, They are nothing but a bunch of users and consumers.

Make it so number 1.

yes

[Anonymous Coward]

From what I've experienced in the last few years, IT _is_ getting more stressful.

I left a job that I had liked alot until I started being worked to death. They wouldn't replace people and they kept piling H1B garbage on top of us, all during a pay freeze. Since then, I've seen an incredible amount of incompetence that is bad enough on its own but even worse because it's institutionalized. At interview time you're expected to have a ton of skills and experience but after hiring it all goes out the window in favor of blind obedience. So the boss, who is stupid, forces everybody to be stupid, and then when the project fails because of that stupidity, guess who the blame falls on. It's almost a relief to be fired.

Re:Think positive people!!!

[chipschap]

And "what about the children"

Reactionary nonsense

[foreverdisillusioned]

Let's face it...the term "helicopter parent" is a very new term.

Not a new concept or phenomenon. You should've seen how the Victorians did things.

I played with the other kids in the neighborhood. I often left the house (unescorted) during the summer in the morning and showed back up at home in time for dinner. I rode my bike and skateboard for miles away from home.

Yeah, kids still do that all the damn time. Just because in some isolated cases & areas the cops have gotten uppity and called CPS doesn't mean it's the norm. If you live within a couple miles of the schools near where I live, you are REQUIRED to walk/bike/skateboard to school--no buses are provided.

this latest generation has been more coddled and has more of an entitlement attitude than previous generations. They seem to feel "owed" by society a job, and to be treated nicely and fairly. They are the generation of everyone getting a trophy just for showing up.

The headline-grabbing liberals in a handful of upper-middle / upper class towns are not even remotely representative of the country as a whole. For every hyper-egalitarian anti-competitive nutjob teacher (or parent) out there, there are fifty burned out and working to get by just as their parents did. Harder, even--average weekly hours worked by Americans have been steadily increasing, not decreasing. This is not a country of millionaires. Most parents do not have the luxury of behaving like whatever punching bag O'Reilly is roasting this week.

Ironically enough, the overprotective parents and cops are falling prey to the same trap you've apparently fallen into--believing the bullshit the infotainment media sells you. The scaremongers still seem to believe that crime is rising, well over 20 years into a major decline. And you seem to believe that most people are overreacting, despite the fact that most parents don't have the time, money or energy to bother overreacting, because they are in fact working harder (or at least longer) than their parents ever did and (adjusting for inflation) earning less for it.

One more major detail you failed to mention: my parents didn't need a degree to get a reasonable job. My grandparents' generation didn't need a degree to get a GREAT job. The jobs themselves haven't changed very much; only the requirements have. This is a result of increased prosperity combined with an enabling government and horribly (if understandably) cynical universities that realize that fleecing millions of undergrads is the only way they are going to be able to fund their grad students' and postdocs' research. So if there is a tiny bit of increase in the so-called "entitlement attitude", well, maybe it has something to do with the fact that our society has just recently begun demanding indentured servitude for anything more complicated than flipping burgers.

Yeah, LIKE YOU GUYS NEVER WHINE ABOUT SYSTEMD

[foreverdisillusioned]

Maybe I'm old, and maybe you kids really should get the fuck off my lawn, but young adults DO whine incessantly.

Old people do it too (arguably moreso), but it's not called "whining"--it's called "grouching" or "grumbling" or "ranting" or "bitching" something. I mean hell, just look at the "get off my lawn!" meme we have here. This phrase is always, ALWAYS attached to a rant that would, if uttered by a kid, be considered "whining".

(Disclaimer: I am on balance anti-systemd although I freely admit I'm not familiar enough with the specifics to be confident in my appraisal.)

Just take a look at the systemd fiasco for a great example of this. There are plenty of legitimate reasons to be against it (even vehemently against it, from what I've seen so far), but the average post I see arguing against it is a pile of self-centered, self-entitled whining I've ever seen. It introduces a new standard for "no reason", boo fucking hoo. It's not at all uncommon to hear you greybeards explicitly say that you don't want to learn a new standard, period. Just complain and complain and complain that you can't do X any more... oh wait... there's a new tool that does everything the old tool did and more? Who the hell cares--why should *you* ever have to learn anything new!? Goddamn kids fixing things that aren't broken! I'm not whining; I'm righteously indignant!

You're too wrapped up in your "real work" to even notice that half of the claims you make against systemd are FUD-fabricated bullshit (again, my disclaimer: the other half of the criticisms seem valid. And on a big picture level, of course it's terribly anti-UNIX and Pottering's rambling justifications for this shit is terrifying.) But just stop and think--how arrogant would this attitude seem if it was coming from a recent grad? And as the experienced ones, you guys are supposed to know better.

Re:Yeah, LIKE YOU GUYS NEVER WHINE ABOUT SYSTEMD

[q4Fry]

I think my favorite thing about this post is your handle.

Indicator of the fall of a nation

[ULTROS]

This tends to happen when luxury is commonplace. People always want what they don't have. More Americans have AC, cable/internet, 40"+ tv, refrigeration, and a car than ever before. Parents spoil the kids in an attempt to shut them up(Not parent). Millennial kids are even worse than my generation. I train new guys often in the oil service sector, and some of the 20 year olds are so lazy I will assign a task and come back in 20 min to see them sitting on their ass of facebook. I have to be an asshole at that point. Whiney brats.

Al, is that you?

[mmell]

I knew you couldn't stay away.

He loves me. He really, really loves me. *sniff*