Gates, Zuckerberg Promising Same Jobs To US Kids and Foreign H-1B Workers?

theodp writes: Over at the Bill Gates and Mark Zuckerberg-bankrolled Code.org, they're using the number of open computing jobs in each state to convince parents of the need to expand K-12 CS offerings so their kids can fill those jobs. Sounds good, right? But at the same time, the Gates and Zuckerberg-bankrolled FWD.org PAC has taken to Twitter, using the number of open "STEM" jobs in each state to convince politicians of the need to expand the number of H-1B visas so foreign workers can fill those jobs. While the goal of Microsoft's 'two-pronged' National Talent Strategy is to kill two birds [K-12 CS education and H-1B visas] with one crisis, is it fair for organizations backed by many of the same wealthy individuals to essentially promise the same jobs to U.S. kids and foreign H-1B workers?

Comments

heh

[bigCstyle]

Yeah, more stem workers = lower pay (supply and demand) I am sure this is all completely legit

Re: heh

[Anonymous Coward]

I should endenturely enslave Indians myself, and live like a lazy corporate executive...

Re:heh

[ShanghaiBill]

Yeah, more stem workers = lower pay (supply and demand)

Supply and demand does not apply to labor markets in the same way as in markets for goods and services. Employers often expand their business based on workers available, so supply creates its own demand. Furthermore, employers will often gravitate to where particular skills are already available, leading to the highest demand where supply is also high, such as Silicon Valley and NYC. When workers are paid, they spend their wages, creating more demand for workers to produce the goods and services they buy. Historically, high immigration has led to economic growth, and lower unemployment.

Re:heh

[Anonymous Coward]

As an actual economist, I can safely say that your explanation of labor markets is 100% bollocks.

Re: heh

[Anonymous Coward]

Your answer shows that you are "an actual economist" indeed!

Re:heh

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh brother! economist = phrenologist

On the other hand maybe you do understand that 'supply and demand' is a mythical beast, and prices are set arbitrarily by the commodities brokers.

Re: heh

[Anonymous Coward]

Zuckerberg and Gates built their respective companies on lies. Why should they stop, now?

Re: heh

[Billly Gates]

Really? ?

Supply & demand is most relevant in labor markets than anywhere else! Need something done with a skill no one has? The free market heavily rewards the job seeker for the investment.

Job not so essential that anyone can do like pour someone coffee? Don't expect much.

It professionals are mighty spoiled compared to other fields. My ex was a teacher and was treated like shit and needed more education and paid half of what most reading this are. That is the free market at work

Re:heh

[Teun]

Oh? Then as an actual economist you can maybe spend a few sentences explaining why the OP is 100% wrong.
See, I can understand nothing is black or white but the suggestion that a higher income for many people benefits the local economy is not strange at all, living examples are the Scandinavian countries.

Re:heh

[NostalgiaForInfinity]

Yeah, more stem workers = lower pay (supply and demand)

That's kind of true, but not in the sense you think. Increased supply means lower prices, but it also means increased sales volume, for good as much as for labor.

If you limit the supply of STEM workers in the US, the average US salary will indeed go up, but for the simple reason that only high-value positions get filled in the US; the rest will simply not get filled or outsourced overseas.

At an individual level, if my business needs a programmer and he's worth at most $120000 to me, I won't hire a programmer at $150000, no matter how short in supply they are, because I'd be taking a $30000 loss. And if my business really needs a programmer, at that point, I'd sell it and invest my money elsewhere (or outsource to overseas).

Re:heh

[NostalgiaForInfinity]

No, it's only 50% bollocks. Labor markets do work like other markets.

The important thing is: Employers often expand their business based on workers available, so supply creates its own demand.

That is, increasing supply lowers prices but it also increases volume, also for labor.

So, if we only had 100 programmers in the US, they'd be paid better than pop stars. However, we wouldn't have much of a software industry, because most companies couldn't afford to hire a programmer at those salaries; they'd simply not use computers.

On the other hand, if programmers were as plentiful as Mexican farm laborers or nannies, most small businesses and many households could afford to hire them to write custom software for them. The average salary of programmers would go way down, although the 100 programmers at the top would still be paid very well. And society as a whole would be a lot better off.

Re:heh

[Anonymous Coward]

Completely true.
Let's give an anecdotal example to support this:
Me.
I am a glazier and ironworker by trade. Building large / institutional and commercial buildings is my experience and early background.
I live in Edmonton, Alberta.

In the 80's while running a commercial glass company, my hobby was mini and early personal computers.
In the early 90's there was more demand for my skills in computing than in construction, so I opened a business supplying and manufacturing mass storage devices.
In the mid 2000's I was faced with 2 crises:
First off the fluctuating exchange rates cost us a lot of money.
Secondly, the "Chinafication" of the industry killed off all the North American hardware companies.
Including mine. I am sure that low labour costs had nothing to do with that..

Fortunately for me, my original trades now pay over $60 per hour, due to guess what?
Shortage of skilled labour.

Re:heh

[FatdogHaiku]

Oh brother! economist = phrenologist

Sir, I resent your denigration of Phrenology!

Re:heh

[Antique Geekmeister]

> That is, increasing supply lowers prices but it also increases volume, also for labor.

Except when it doesn't. "Supply increases volume" only when then suppliers _believe_ that there is a profit available, and excess supply often saturates the market. Otherwise, all the empty storefronts I see on one block on my way to work would be filled with active hair salons, unlike the three competing salons on that block that are all going out of business.

Re: heh

[AK Marc]

Nope. Much like supply and demand doesn't much affect gasoline and milk, it also doesn't greatly impact jobs. This is so common there's even a term for it. Inelastic demand. What happens with many inelastic goods is not changes in demand, but removal of demand. When you raise milk by 5%, people still buy about the same amount. But if you raise the price by 500%, people will buy soy milk, or otherwise replace the good with one that's sufficiently similar.

The same happens in jobs. People will move (though not nearly enough to satisfy most models), and employers will move. Jobs will be ended, and new jobs created. The changing of the job market will come before the supply and demand moves the job that much. Jobs will never pay below minimum wage, and never above their value for the company (excepting management). So supply and demand can't fully define the market for jobs.

Re:heh

[NostalgiaForInfinity]

Except when it doesn't. "Supply increases volume" only when then suppliers _believe_ that there is a profit available, and excess supply often saturates the market.

There is no such thing as "excess supply of labor": if labor is cheap enough, there are always more jobs to be done. If people could hire programmers for the same price as tax-evading dog sitters, half of American homes would hire them to do custom development for their home automation.

Otherwise, all the empty storefronts I see on one block on my way to work would be filled with active hair salons, unlike the three competing salons on that block that are all going out of business.

The reason those store fronts are empty is because your town/city is keeping the cost of doing business high: anything from professional licensing and minimum wage to insurance requirements, business taxes, and real estate taxes. Without those high costs of doing business, there would be plenty of takers for those storefronts. That's the same thing that's happening to the software business as labor costs go up: the number of companies in the business shrinks.

Re: heh

[PopeRatzo]

Supply & demand is most relevant in labor markets than anywhere else!

No. See, "monopsony".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

Re:heh

[PopeRatzo]

Labor markets do work like other markets.

They do not. The technical term is "imperfect competition".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

Re:heh

[NostalgiaForInfinity]

You're missing the context here: labor markets work like other markets in that increasing the supply not only lowers prices but also increases demand.

(As to your point, all markets have some degree of imperfect competition; so, yes, labor markets are no different from other markets even in that regard.)

Re:heh

[sjames]

And then supply would collapse because nobody in their right mind would invest more in learning to program than they would ever earn actually doing it.

Or, they would have their welfare cut off until they got a real job.

Re:heh

[NostalgiaForInfinity]

Obviously, if programmers were as cheap as farm laborers, their education would have to be as cheap as farm laborers as well.

My point is that artificially restricting the supply of programmers doesn't benefit anybody: even if average programmer salaries went down by importing a flood of programmers from overseas, that average mostly goes down because low-end programmers are added, not because people's salaries are cut. Furthermore, society as a whole benefits from any increase in the availability of programmers.

Re:heh

[Antique Geekmeister]

> There is no such thing as "excess supply of labor": if labor is cheap enough

I'm sorry to contradict you, but _where_ are you getting this nonsense? "Labor costs" that drop below a sustenance level kill workers, and even prevent the workers from participating in the local economy. Between those two limitations, and all the others, one can certainly have an "excess supply of labor". It's especially apparent in seasonal farm labor when drought or blight ruins the crops, and it was certainly a problem for winter food supplies in harsh climates.

Please, actually work as a farm worker, a fast food attendant, a cab driver, or try to feed a family on a minimum wage before you make such absurd claims,

> The reason those store fronts are empty is because your town/city is keeping the cost of doing business high

This is, once again, complete nonsense. "The town/city" is not keeping the expenses high as a matter of tax or licensing policy. There simply isn't enough street traffic to support so many vendors, especially when modern consumers so easily order goods online from around the world. And for the service industries, such as hair and nail salons, they need parking, foot traffic, and customers who can attend their salons when the businesses are open.

According to your stated theory "That is, increasing supply lowers prices but it also increases volume, also for labor.". It ignores the _caps_ on volume of business, caps due to capital supply limitations, due to available numbers of customers and frequency of service, and due to the minimum costs of keeping the workers alive.

Again, I don't know where you're getting these ideas. They're refuted by the most casual reviews of economic disasters, such as the Great Depression in the USA, or famines such as the Irish Potato Famine or the mass starvations of North Korea of the 1990's. There was no "labor shortage", people would work for less than a survival wage or survival diet and starve to _death_ as they struggled to outlast the famines and poverty.

Re:heh

[sjames]

We've seen right here on /. about various IT people being displaced by H1-Bs, mot supplemented with.

If there was an actual shortage, we'd see ageism go away kinda like in the run-up to y2k where there was an actual shortage of skilled COBOL programmers and they were enticing people back out of management.

We would also see the requires X years experience in X-3 year old technology requirements go away. We wouldn't see lawyers offering employers advice on how to taylor job postings to make sure they get an H1-B.

Re:heh

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you stupid or something ... supply and demand most certainly applies to wages in the same way that it does to other things. if you look at tech jobs over the last 20 years the wages have been relativity stagnant as jobs have been off shored and the ratio of people to jobs increased.

 

Re:heh

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh? I guess that's why McDonalds pays so much to their workers, because the excess of workers causes extra demand?

Likewise, the excess of illegal immigrants causes excess workers for lawn maintenance, which, I'm sure, also causes wages to rise steadily.

Re:heh

[PopeRatzo]

As to your point, all markets have some degree of imperfect competition; so, yes

No no no. You missed the point. "Imperfect competition" is a term of art. It specifically refers to oligopolies and monopolies and monopsonies.

It doesn't mean that the competition is imperfect "to some degree". It means that it cannot be anything like a free market if any of these states exist. As usual, it's the "science" of Economics mislabeling things to suit an agenda. A better description would be "broken competition".

Re: heh

[Shakrai]

Uhh, have you been paying attention to oil prices and the reasons for the decline?

Commodities are not magically insulated from the law of supply and demand.

Re: heh

[AK Marc]

Yes, they are. People are making changes to reduce use, but aren't reducing demand. They don't drive less, they find ways to conserve. There's a difference.

Re:heh

[NostalgiaForInfinity]

"Imperfect competition" is a term of art. It specifically refers to oligopolies and monopolies and monopsonies.

Look, if you get your economic education from Wikipedia, at least read correctly:

In economic theory, imperfect competition is a type of market structure showing some but not all features of competitive markets. Forms of imperfect competition include:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I...

Not "it must be one of these three".

Re:heh

[NostalgiaForInfinity]

We've seen right here on /. about various IT people being displaced by H1-Bs, mot supplemented with.

Yes, what's your point? If they hadn't been replaced with H1-Bs, their jobs might simply have moved overseas altogether. Or they might have had their salaries cut (i.e., not raised).

We wouldn't see lawyers offering employers advice on how to taylor job postings to make sure they get an H1-B.

Given the minefield of legal requirements legislators have created, yes, you need lawyers to hire, in particular to hire overseas, no matter how good your case is.

Re: heh

[Shakrai]

Did you miss the countless headlines about OPEC increasing production for the stated purpose of lowering prices?! Quite successfully I might add. Conservation is a red herring, incidentally, whatever improvements we make with technology are more than offset by third world development (*cough* China *cough*)

Re:heh

[NostalgiaForInfinity]

"Labor costs" that drop below a sustenance level kill workers, and even prevent the workers from participating in the local economy.

We're talking about a specific job category here, programmers. Can there be an excess supply of programmers? No. At some point, it simply doesn't pay to be a programmer, and people go back to being Baristas instead. Nobody starves, nobody gets killed.

one can certainly have an "excess supply of labor". It's especially apparent in seasonal farm labor when drought or blight ruins the crops, and it was certainly a problem for winter food supplies in harsh climates.

That is not an "excess supply of labor", it's a misallocation of labor. In principle, those people could do lots of other things. In many cases, however, people are prevented from hiring them altogether because government has created large obstacles to hiring them.

Again, I don't know where you're getting these ideas. They're refuted by the most casual reviews of economic disasters, such as the Great Depression in the USA, or famines such as the Irish Potato Famine or the mass starvations of North Korea of the 1990's. There was no "labor shortage", people would work for less than a survival wage or survival diet and starve to _death_ as they struggled to outlast the famines and poverty.

That's not "excess labor", it's too many mouths to feed due to some other scarcity. You can see that those problems have nothing to do with "excess labor" because those people would have starved even if they had all been incapable of work (e.g., children, disabled).

Please, actually work as a farm worker, a fast food attendant, a cab driver, or try to feed a family on a minimum wage before you make such absurd claims,

I've lived on less than minimum wage. What's your point?

According to your stated theory "That is, increasing supply lowers prices but it also increases volume, also for labor."

I didn't "state a theory". I pointed out that when people say that increased supply lowers prices, they are neglecting that it also increases volume. Obviously, that only works up to a point. Do such trivialities even need to be pointed out?

This is, once again, complete nonsense. "The town/city" is not keeping the expenses high as a matter of tax or licensing policy. There simply isn't enough street traffic to support so many vendors, especially when modern consumers so easily order goods online from around the world.

Who said anything about "vendors"? The point is that unless your city or the buildings themselves are not viable, there are uses for these spaces, provided they are offered cheap enough. Worst case, turn them into housing for the homeless at $1/night.

Re: heh

[AK Marc]

How about this for an example of supply and demand. If a radio station ran a promotion tonight, for $0.20 for a gallon of gasoline. How would that affect your weekly consumption? For most people, that wouldn't change the amount they purchase or consume for this week. Similar effects are seen with milk.

You are confusing "oil" and "gasoline". When you learn the difference, feel free to start reading the posts again from the top. Though, I expect you to keep arguing against what nobody ever said, so you can declare a "win" in your mind with an argument nobody is having with you.

Re:heh

[sjames]

If we had an actual shortage as you claim, they couldn't have afforded to let those rare and needed U.S. workers go. If there was an actual shortage, they wouldn't have to post the job openings strategically to make sure they don't accidentally get a qualified U.S. applicant.

Re: heh

[Shakrai]

You are confusing "oil" and "gasoline"

You're kidding right?

so you can declare a "win" in your mind

If you think I care that much about the "win" you've completely misunderstood me.

with an argument nobody is having with you.

*shrug*, I re-read your post I initially replied to and parsed it more carefully; in fairness you didn't directly link supply and demand to price.

Re:heh

[NostalgiaForInfinity]

You continue to reason in nonsensical terms like "actual shortage", as if it were a binary thing.

If it helps, try to think of it as a "shortage of cheap IT workers". You erroneously assume that if companies can't hire cheap IT workers, they will substitute expensive IT workers. A few may, but many will simply find other solutions.

Furthermore, your entire premise is somehow that it is the job of the US government to protect the salaries of US IT workers; of course it is not. When IT workers want protectionist laws, it's no different from bankers or farmers asking for government handouts and protectionism.

Re: heh

[itzly]

Speak for yourself. I certainly drive less when gas prices are high.

Re:heh

[Maxo-Texas]

Which is one of the challenges (for now) of indian competition.

A degree in india is 7.5 to 20 lahk while a degree from comparable western universities is 20 to 50 lahk.*

Living expenses are even lower so the amount of debt incurred is tiny compared to western students. The net result is a degree cost 25% of a comparable western degree.

The lower level of debt allows a much lower income level. This is likely to continue for another 20 to 40 years at current inflation rates and presumes that indian tuition won't accelerate as western tuition has and that western tuition won't continue to outpace indian tuition inflation.

*http://www.mba.com/india/plan-for-business-school/enroll-in-a-program/financing-your-degree/how-much-will-it-cost.aspx

Re:heh

[sjames]

Well, gee, it seems there is a severe shortage of electricity, food, housing, pretty much everything. By God it's like Soviet Russia around here. Not one cheap food item on the shelves!

Shortage isn't binary, but it does show signs and symptoms. Those include rising prices (in this case salaries) broadening standards (that would mean more willingness to accept telecommute, more willingness to hire older workers, etc), more concessions to work/life balance, and other measures. In other words, there is an existing under-utilized pool of IT labor in the U.S.

It is the Government's job to protect the economy of the U.S. and that includes making sure the general population is able to maintain their standard of living.

I don't mind helping the farmers, but the bankers were the architects of their own problems got bailed out anyway and left everyone else holding the bag. Then in gratitude they began a crazy and often illegal campaign of mass foreclosures.

Re: heh

[bill.mcnew]

Conserving means using less.

Re: heh

[Anonymous Coward]

the h-1b program is a corrupt giveaway to extremely profitable companies that, instead of actually offshoring want to pay the price for foreign labor in the United States. when a programmer here can get 60000 and the company can import someone to do the same thing for 30000 a year they will do so. it is the worst form of crony capitalism there is. I also don't understand why it got so far in an economy where we have 92 million people out of work.

Re: heh

[Anonymous Coward]

All of those things would be happening if there was indeed a shortage which we know for a fact is impossible with 92 million people out of work.

Re: heh

[AK Marc]

Most people don't find a way to stop driving to work when the price of gasoline goes up 5%. Usage doesn't drop for small changes in price. A 200% increase for a period of a year will cause carpools to start up at work, and people trading in their suburbans for Priuses, but 5% here and there has almost no effect on usage.

Re: heh

[Skapare]

i just don't drive at all when gas costs money

Re:heh

[Anonymous Coward]

No, it does not.
A market price is set by demand and supply. One does not necessarily effect the other.
Read about the history of milk pricing, if you want to learn.

Re:heh

[Anonymous Coward]

don't forget the fake openings that companies list when transferring an existing employee internally, not removing filled listings, high skills jobs with joke salaries and benefits, etc.

i don't give a shit about foreigners and am all for lower supply although that has already benn proven to NOT be the case.

Re:heh

[NostalgiaForInfinity]

Shortage isn't binary, but it does show signs and symptoms. Those include rising prices (in this case salaries) ... In other words, there is an existing under-utilized pool of IT labor in the U.S.

They are "underutilized" because they aren't willing to work for the kinds of salaries they can get from companies and companies aren't willing to pay them more for the skills they have. That's not going to change through restricting immigration.

Restricting immigration does keep IT salaries higher, but primarily for the simple reason that it prevents lower paying IT jobs from getting filled, hence keeping the average high. Companies are not going to raise their salaries for lower paying IT jobs substantially, they are simply going to find other ways of getting the work done, and if that doesn't work, change businesses.

It is the Government's job to protect the economy of the U.S. and that includes making sure the general population is able to maintain their standard of living.

Even if restricting H1-Bs would raise IT salaries, of what possible interest is that to Americans at large? If Apple or Microsoft pay there developers twice as much, it's their customers who pay that money, i.e., prices go up. And since Apple and Microsoft compete with companies in India and China, they may well become uncompetitive altogether, meaning all the jobs are gone.

I don't mind helping the farmers, but the bankers were the architects of their own problems got bailed out anyway and left everyone else holding the bag. Then in gratitude they began a crazy and often illegal campaign of mass foreclosures.

"Good productive farmers and workers. Evil bankers. Government should step in and bring some order into these markets". You should read up on the history of those ideas.

Re:heh

[Anonymous Coward]

Increased supply means lower prices, but it also means increased sales volume

Um, that's not how supply and demand work. This is a classical conservative mistake and has been called everything from "Supply Side Economics" to "Voodoo Economics" to "Trickle Down Economics". The fact is that for a given good there is something called elasticity of demand. Some products have a very elastic demand and some are almost perfectly inelastic. For example, if the cost of amputations were suddenly reduced by 90% you wouldn't see the number of amputations increase ten-fold. Cutting the cost of toilets cause people to buy significantly more toilets. You can't manufacture demand by increasing supply.

You know what does increase demand? Disposable income. When people have money, they like to spend it. When they spend it, that's demand. If you really want to drive demand figure out how to get people more disposable income.

Re:heh

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes and your answer shows what is wrong you the actual economist do not have a fucking clue how the world works.

Re:heh

[sjames]

H1-B is NOT immigration. I don't oppose immigration, I oppose H1-B. The dynamic of abusing the employee's tenuous status is part of the problem. I'm guessing they will seem a lot less valuable to employers here if they have a green card such that they can change jobs without risk of being deported.

But beyond just IT, I'm pretty sure most Americans would find increase in income to match the last 30 years of inflation would be a real help. It would also stimulate the economy and boost profits of a lot of companies.

Your understanding of economics seems to consist mostly of talking points.

Re:heh

[Anonymous Coward]

"your entire premise is somehow that it is the job of the US government to protect the salaries of US IT workers; of course it is not. "

However the object of the government IS to protect the citizenry as a whole. So, in the case of one group of citizens wanting to harm another group of citizens by employing non-citizens, what should the government do?

If the company isn't going to go out of business, but instead simply won't make as much profit, should the US government allow the outsourcing?

Re:heh

[JustSomeProgrammer]

Those are some interesting points. I'm almost sold to your point of view but the allocation of labor you bring up I think is not as malleable as you make it sound. It's not that easy to turn a random hairstylist into a programmer for example. Maybe turning her into a cook might work... they are both considered low skill jobs, but if the local economy isn't supporting either of those positions, how do we mass retrain the work force? If we can't do the retraining then that person is going to be checking the unemployed box.

Re: heh

[bill.mcnew]

This is the second part of your proof that you are not an economist. Our IT director was gone for 2 weeks for vacation. People throughout the company called him about 4 times a day. If say he was gone for 2 months with no phone calls the company would have ground to a halt completely. The company would've lost several hundred million dollars. Believe me when I tell you they are more than willing to pay double or better than what they pay an h 1 b visa worker. Go to your masters back at the Democratic National Committee and tell them that your we are wise to their antics. And take you economics back to Cuba.

Re:heh

[NostalgiaForInfinity]

H1-B is NOT immigration.

H1-B is the primary way by which tech immigrants come into the country. It wasn't intended that way originally, but that's how it has worked out, and it's how the legal framework is set up. That's no accident either because it's the way it works in most other countries too: temporary work permit, then permanent residency, then citizenship.

I'm guessing they will seem a lot less valuable to employers here if they have a green card such that they can change jobs without risk of being deported.

Transferring between employers is easy for H1-B workers; the old employer doesn't need to approve and doesn't even find out. So, employers have no special hold over H1-B workers. The only thing that makes H1-B transfers difficult is the government red tape and quotas that surround them.

But beyond just IT, I'm pretty sure most Americans would find increase in income to match the last 30 years of inflation would be a real help. It would also stimulate the economy and boost profits of a lot of companies.

Americans are actually doing quite a bit better now than 30 years ago. There has been some stagnation, mostly under Obama, whose economic policies turned out to be a complete failure, measured against his own predictions and promises.

Of course, we'd be doing a lot better still with more immigration, lower taxes, and less regulation.

Re:heh

[sjames]

On the other hand, with a green card they need not do anything special to change jobs and don't have to deal with any red tape.

The rest is trickery with numbers that assumes that as long as flatscreen TVs get cheaper it's harmless that food, clothing, shelter, and medical care skyrocketed.

Re:heh

[Anonymous Coward]

On the other hand, with a green card they need not do anything special to change jobs and don't have to deal with any red tape.

It would be lovely if skilled immigrants could come in on green cards, but that's not how it works anymore, thanks in large part to people like you. You talk out of both sides of your mouth, claiming that you are for immigration, but actually just sabotaging it.

The rest is trickery with numbers that assumes that as long as flatscreen TVs get cheaper it's harmless that food, clothing, shelter, and medical care skyrocketed.

That "trickery with numbers" is called "facts". It's a lot better what you have: just making stuff up, as you just did again.

Re:heh

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not sure where you got that I claim that it's easy to acquire new job skills. All I was saying is that a low-skilled programmer (i.e., the kind a US software company doesn't want to hire at a high salary) doesn't have to starve, there are plenty of other jobs in the US for him. On the other hand, turning a low-skilled programmer into a high-skilled programmer is obviously quite difficult; if it were easy, companies would be doing it and saving themselves tons of money.

Re:heh

[Anonymous Coward]

I said the same thing and got down modded :/

Why are thou forsaken me /.

Re:heh

[Anonymous Coward]

Imperfect competition can affect a variety of markets; it is not limited to labor markets. Just because some (microeconomic) markets are not properly competitive doesn't mean that labor markets don't work like other markets.

Re: heh

[Anonymous Coward]

I think you're missing the forest for the trees. Elasticity of demand affects many things, not just labor markets. Just because there is inelasticity in a market doesn't make it fundamentally different from other markets.

Also, many jobs pay below the minimum wage -- the minimum wage is only effective if the employer believes that it's enforced. As an example, the recent exposé on nail salons in San Francisco & NYC shows a virtual kind of indentured servitude where employees work much below the minimum wage.

Re: heh

[Anonymous Coward]

What? No.

Monopsony is when there is a single consumer of labor in a market. That leads to distortion of prices in that market. The common example taught is that of a mine owner in a small mining town: if there's only one mine, and there's only one mine owner to work for, the owner of the mine has pricing power because the mine workers can only realistically work in one place. Therefore, the mine owner is able to influence prices because he is the only one consuming labor.

But it doesn't happen often, and it doesn't mean "supply & demand isn't relevant in labor markets". In fact, monopsony is *defined* by a specific characteristic of supply and demand: there are many employees supplying labor, but only one company demanding it: a monopsony.

Re: heh

[PopeRatzo]

Monopsony is when there is a single consumer of labor in a market.

It's also used to describe any market inefficiency caused by a very limited number of sellers and many buyers.

The same way Microsoft or AT&T were said to have engaged in monopolistic practices even though they were not the only sellers in their respective marketplaces.

Re: heh

[fustakrakich]

I think the red herring is the 'increased production'. It never happened. Prices are set arbitrarily, just like interest rates. And we all know how well Libor handles that little business. To think that petro/dollar rates are set any different is totally naive. The whole 'supply and demand' thing is a complete fantasy outside the itty-bitty local market.

For the Needs and Pleasure of the Wealthy

[ohnocitizen]

Its hard not to be cynical when this is how the wealthy use their influence in a society that actively caters to them. I'm glad Slashdot keeps reporting on these issues, and I hope we will support and punish as appropriate candidates who oppose H1B. I hope we will have our own movement and do our own work in as many different social avenues as we can to defeat attempts to make things harder for us for the sole reason of lining the pockets of the wealthy more than they already are.

Re: For the Needs and Pleasure of the Wealthy

[Anonymous Coward]

The people responsible for the h-1b visa program are the same people who want illegal immigration as well. Can you guess who that is?

Theo, about your rhetoric

[Anonymous Coward]

The specific jobs that are listed today won't actually be there by the time the 10 and 12-year old American kids graduate from college. By that time, it could be that even the technical skill sets employers are hiring for will be different.

They were hoping you'd be bright enough to figure that out.

Maybe Gates and Zuck are saying, "Look, American companies have all these IT jobs they've been trying to fill, preferably on US soil. We need more talent! Homegrown talent would be great, otherwise, we'll need to bring them in from outside."

Re:Theo, about your rhetoric

[Anonymous Coward]

Gates and Zuckerberg do not care where their workers come from but how much they cost as they run businesses and not charities. In fact it is in their best interest to 1. train domestic talent 2. import foreign workers 3. domestic salaries are now depressed 4. profit.

Neither Gates nor Zuckerberg got rich and where they are by working for someone. Certainly not working for someone in slaverITy.

Re:Theo, about your rhetoric

[Ol Olsoc]

Gates and Zuckerberg do not care where their workers come from but how much they cost as they run businesses and not charities. In fact it is in their best interest to 1. train domestic talent 2. import foreign workers 3. domestic salaries are now depressed 4. profit.

Neither Gates nor Zuckerberg got rich and where they are by working for someone. Certainly not working for someone in slaverITy.

You forgot the supply part. Coding training is the new English major, and any parent who doesn't want a 35 year old cellar dweller in their house should probably try to talk their chilren into som eother career choice.

Re:Theo, about your rhetoric

[Anonymous Coward]

Coding training is the new English major,

That's not a bad analogy. Increasingly, the white collar job market is viewing basic training in programming to be an essential skill, and it's the responsibility of the applicant, not the employer.

Re:Theo, about your rhetoric

[Ol Olsoc]

Coding training is the new English major,

That's not a bad analogy. Increasingly, the white collar job market is viewing basic training in programming to be an essential skill, and it's the responsibility of the applicant, not the employer.

I'm trying to imagine the people in Human Resources doing coding.......

Re:Theo, about your rhetoric

[unixisc]

Given how specialized and difficult recruiting is these days, I wonder how long will recruiting be a low skill job? I have seen plenty of people from other disciplines get into recruiting. Far from being an HR drone job, it's now a very high stress job, given that recruiters have targets to fill, and they'd tend to lose their jobs if those ain't met. Also, given how specialized the searches are, recruitment is becoming as segmented an industry as engineering or other high skilled disciplines.

Re:Theo, about your rhetoric

[Anonymous Coward]

The spending of the ill-gotten billions is helping Bill Gates redefine himself as an ethical person. At least, in your eyes.

Re:Theo, about your rhetoric

[exomondo]

Gates and Zuckerberg do not care where their workers come from but how much they cost as they run businesses and not charities. In fact it is in their best interest to 1. train domestic talent 2. import foreign workers 3. domestic salaries are now depressed 4. profit.

Take a look at the mantra pushed in stories on slashdot. Sure not everybody agrees but in general you see the pontificating that software-as-a-service is bad, that paying a subscription fee for software is bad, that software should be free and that you should be able to pass it around free of charge, internet advertising is bad and you should be cutting off that revenue stream for companies by using ad-blocking software, etc...

I'm not saying there is anything wrong with espousing those values but you have to understand that this reduces the ability for these companies to make a profit thus they need to reduce their costs as well. The cost of software and IT infrastructure has been driven down drastically so obviously the costs must be cut too.

Re:Theo, about your rhetoric

[Anonymous Coward]

At least he's trying to atone. I'm going to guess you've never volunteered or donated anything in your bitter life.

Re: Theo, about your rhetoric

[Anonymous Coward]

It wouldn't be hard if they paid decent wages and treated the employees fairly.

Re:Theo, about your rhetoric

[unixisc]

And these billions are ill-gotten why, exactly? 'Cos Microsoft charged hundreds of $$$ for every copy of Windows, Office, et al instead of giving it away for free, like the Linux guys do? Well, even RMS is okay with people selling software - he just wants copyleft rights to be a part of the package.

Re: Theo, about your rhetoric

[Anonymous Coward]

yeah, that will not happen. one of the things a skilled business leader nose or at least learns within a short time is that there are some people who want to do technical stuff and some people who don't. there's some people who just want to deal with other people all day long and that's it and there are others who would like to deal with machines all day long. they are not the same people and they are not easily interchangeable.

Re: Theo, about your rhetoric

[Ol Olsoc]

yeah, that will not happen.

Likewise, I'm trying to imagine coders using the shoes people wear, the purses and Italian suits, and the font on their resume as job qualifications.

Really, IT anf HR are just about opposite ends of the spectrum of human interests.

Reading comprehension FTW:

[rmdingler]

Encourage the cleverest of the endemic miscreants to pursue career paths that are ever in our favor,

or don't act surprised when we accommodate our needs from the foreign hordes.

Re:Reading comprehension FTW:

[Opportunist]

But everyone and their dog is already rushing for BA degrees. How many more miscreants do you need?

Its the same issue either way

[Anonymous Coward]

The issue is lack of skilled workers - either training workers in the same country or hiring workers having such education from another country will solve the issue. As an employer, I hire either and don't care which, and would suspect most businesses including MS and Facebook are happy to find skilled workers either way.

Re:Its the same issue either way

[Anonymous Coward]

"The issue is lack of skilled workers"...

You forgot to follow that with ..."that are willing to work for the peanuts I want to pay them."

Re:Its the same issue either way

[Ol Olsoc]

The issue is lack of skilled workers - either training workers in the same country or hiring workers having such education from another country will solve the issue. As an employer, I hire either and don't care which, and would suspect most businesses including MS and Facebook are happy to find skilled workers either way.

If you'd renounce your citizenship and move to one of those other countries you'd get cheap labor.

Please?

Re:Its the same issue either way

[Anonymous Coward]

No need to renounce citizenship, we already use workers overseas - they are getting the jobs that could be in the U.S. We're paying $200K for workers in the U.S., have of which can't produce anything useful and we have to let them go within a year, compared to $20K in Romania with a higher success rate.

Re:Its the same issue either way

[Anonymous Coward]

If our customers won't pay more for our software compared to the competition, then we can't pay workers substantially more than the competition. Software is a global business, and customers don't care where anything is made - whether that's electronics, food, software or anything else, that's reality.

Re:Its the same issue either way

[Wycliffe]

"The issue is lack of skilled workers"...

You forgot to follow that with ..."that are willing to work for the peanuts I want to pay them."

I'm not sure it's that simple. Sure, one business could pay double the market rate and steal employees from the shop down the street
but that only gets you so far and IT is already paid at about double the rate of most industries so the people who can do it already are
doing IT and it doesn't matter if every employer doubled the amount that they are willing to pay tomorrow if there are no more employees
left. I think that's the reason that facebook, etc... have all the other perks. They are trying as hard as they can to recruit people and
I don't know of anyone who has turned down a job with either google or facebook because the pay was too low or there wasn't enough
perks.

Re:Its the same issue either way

[Anonymous Coward]

No need to renounce citizenship, we already use workers overseas - they are getting the jobs that could be in the U.S. We're paying $200K for workers in the U.S., have of which can't produce anything useful and we have to let them go within a year, compared to $20K in Romania with a higher success rate.

You can tell this is true, because he posts using his real world name, provided a link to his company site advertising the positions to be filled, complete with the locations, duties and salary offered as well as a detailed overview of the working environment and conditions. Oh wait, he didn't do any of that, guess he's lying.

Re:Its the same issue either way

[unixisc]

Sez one AC to another.....

Re:Its the same issue either way

[Anonymous Coward]

"The issue is lack of skilled workers"...

You forgot to follow that with ..."that are willing to work for the peanuts I want to pay them."

Is there any evidence to support that hypothesis? Is the status quo really that there are masses of unemployed skilled American workers turning down jobs because the salaries are too low?

Re:Its the same issue either way

[Anonymous Coward]

The problem is that the unemployed American is not even being considered for the job when they do apply. The job requirements are carefully set out so that only the Infosys-style company will have an employee that meets the criteria. There's all kinds of backroom shenanigans going on here, and as usual, the average citizen is the fool at the card table who is being taken.

Re: Its the same issue either way

[Anonymous Coward]

With 92 million people out of work I can guarantee you they can easily find anybody they want to work for them relocate for them and work extra hours. But of course if you want to pay half or less than that you have to go outside the country and that is what they're doing. it is even worse than offshoring at least then you have to watch your actual job leave not simply be replaced by someone who just flies in and takes it.

Re: Its the same issue either way

[Anonymous Coward]

How many of those 92 million are experts in something that these companies actually want? Something like SAP. Oracle. Core Java. Analytics. So that they actually address a need for their potential employers, as opposed to just expecting to be hired b'cos....

Also, from the POV of a terminated employee, how does it make a difference whether his job goes to someone flown in from Bangalore on an H1B/L1 or whether it's assigned to a team in Bangalore or Bucharest or Warsaw or somewhere else? Yeah, it makes a difference to the employers, but in what way does it impact an employee who's lost his job to such a team?

Re: Its the same issue either way

[Wycliffe]

With 92 million people out of work I can guarantee you they can easily find anybody they want to work for them relocate for them and work extra hours. But of course if you want to pay half or less than that you have to go outside the country and that is what they're doing. it is even worse than offshoring at least then you have to watch your actual job leave not simply be replaced by someone who just flies in and takes it.

Most of those 92 million are not qualified. If you know of a GOOD programmer out of work
and is willing to work for double or even triple minimum wage then please contact me as I
will hire him on the spot. Many programmers with a 4 year degree are paid on par with
doctors who spend 8+ years in school.
I'm not saying that h1b1s aren't being abused to save money but good employees in IT can
still find jobs that are paying considerably above what most other professionals make as
well as at least 4-5 times what you make on minimum wage. A good programmer can
easily make double what many non-IT people with masters degrees make.

Re: Its the same issue either way

[Anonymous Coward]

No, among 92 million workers believe me there are at least two or three million far better than you at anything. The idea that in the midst of a severe recession we have to go outside of America to import foreign workers is simply immoral at several levels in addition to being false. That kind of excuse will not work and the word is getting out that our government is actually working against us. But never fear while you may still be able to get a decent job as a decent programmer it simply won't last that long if corporations are allowed to use a program to simply fire people and replace them with foreign workers. This country should serve me not foreign citizens. It is only due to our government working the crony capitalist side that they can import foreign workers. So our government is actually working for foreign citizens and not us.

Re: Its the same issue either way

[Catbeller]

Disney not two weeks ago fired their IT department and replaced them with H1B workers. They just didn't want to pay American salaries to American workers. The arguments is over.

Re: Its the same issue either way

[Wycliffe]

Disney not two weeks ago fired their IT department and replaced them with H1B workers. They just didn't want to pay American salaries to American workers. The arguments is over.

Disney has plenty of money but to give you a view from the other side:
We're a small business (less than 20 employees) and we've had this
discussion more than once. I have no desire to outsource but our IT
budget can barely afford to hire American programmers. Sure, we would
love to pay everyone six figures but the money just isn't there. To make
matters worse, our competitors have already outsourced their IT. We pay
our office staff above market wages at 30-40k per year but we just can't
afford to pay our IT the 80k plus required when everyone else is at 40k.
It's got to the point where it's hurting our growth as we just can't find
programmers willing to work for what we're able to pay (60k) and we are
considering what it would take to outsource our IT.

Re:Its the same issue either way

[Anonymous Coward]

Sez one AC to another.....

The difference is that I'm not making assertions.

No need to renounce citizenship, we already use workers overseas - they are getting the jobs that could be in the U.S. We're paying $200K for workers in the U.S., have of which can't produce anything useful and we have to let them go within a year, compared to $20K in Romania with a higher success rate.

You can tell this is true, because he posts using his real world name, provided a link to his company site advertising the positions to be filled, complete with the locations, duties and salary offered as well as a detailed overview of the working environment and conditions. Oh wait, he didn't do any of that, guess he's lying.

Anyone paying really paying $200k US to people who "can't produce anything useful" would link to a job posting where they are trying to get better employees instead of just making claims about off shoring for better people.

Gates and Zuckerbergs Vision for America

[l0ungeb0y]

If Gates and Zuckerberg have their way -- all US tech workers will compete directly with foreigners for their jobs. In the words of FWD.us "Major Contributor" Lars Dalgaard:

"Nobody's going to hold you up and carry you around...If you're not going to work hard enough to be qualified to get the job...well then, you don't deserve the job."

And part of WORKING HARD ENOUGH is WORKING CHEAP ENOUGH.

Remember kids -- you got give us MORE FOR LESS if you want to make it in today's Globalized Economy. Just being a US Citizen doesn't mean you deserve to work in the US. Why should we "Carry You Around" if we can import workers willing to work for the equivalent wage they'd get in Bangalore while working in San Jose and will even offer to CARRY US AROUND the corporate campus in Rickshaws and Litters in their off hours?

This is why we need to revamp the educational system in America -- to train young thralls how to compete in the workplace of the future

Re:Gates and Zuckerbergs Vision for America

[Njorthbiatr]

It's strange that businesses oppose raising wages. It's like the prisoner's dilemma and everyone wants to screw everyone else over.

Look, you'll pad profits for a short while (maybe), but in the long run it's detrimental to the entire economy since the bulk of the population ends up with less spending power. If corporations were forced to pay their workers fair rates everyone would benefit.

Re:Gates and Zuckerbergs Vision for America

[Ol Olsoc]

This is why we need to revamp the educational system in America -- to train young thralls how to compete in the workplace of the future

Eat lots of Ramen, live in a 300 square foot apartment with 15 other people - not you're getting it!

Re:Gates and Zuckerbergs Vision for America

[Tablizer]

come out with a differentiated product... Just being able to pound out the same ol' scripts and O-O classes won't get you there though

The trick is to indeed pound out the same old thing, but market it as something new and different, such as "cloud" or "node" or "parallel" or "3D coding" or "Shiny Bullshit on Rails", etc.

In my many years in the industry, I'm still amazed at the power of bullshit. I suppose we could view such as job security as each fad creates a rewrite of the same things projected into the fad or language of the month.

Re:Gates and Zuckerbergs Vision for America

[Opportunist]

By that time he's had his stay, pumped the stock value and received his golden parachute. Why should he give a fuck about anything you mentioned?

Re:Gates and Zuckerbergs Vision for America

[Opportunist]

I think it's time we teach our kids valuable skills they'll need in the future. How to hold and use a rifle. How to tie a hangman's knot. How to spot a manager trying to blend into the crowd...

Re:Gates and Zuckerbergs Vision for America

[fermion]

15 years ago many tech workers screamed the libertarian anti-union songs about how a new economy, not based on old rules like profit and loss and robber barons, would create a magical world in which workers and bosses were equal, and all would be fairly treated, and no governement intervention would be required. Then the bubble burst and people lost jobs and workers had to pay huge taxes on stock incentives that were now worthless and everyone started crying about H1B taking their jobs, just like the lowly auto manufacturer workers. It became a time where there was less difference between a tech worker and bluer collar worker. They were all semi-skilled workers

Here is the thing. Apple, Facebook, MS, are all employers just like any other employer. They want to acquire employees at the least cost. They want to pay the least they can. they don't want people to leave. If this can happen with local employees, that is great. They are cheaper to acquire. But local employees know how much it costs in the US and can leave at any time. That means they cost most in the long term. It would be one thing if local employees could be contract, but the courts have said they can't if they don't have control over the schedule. It would be one thing if local employees could be tied to a job, but courts has awarded money for anti-poaching schemes.

So what is an employer to do. H1B is a good solution. Workers don't know how much the cost of living is, and is likely to be willing to live a much lower standard of living for a certain amount of work. Workers are much harder to poach. Workers are much less likely to complain about an employer violating the laws of the US.

So no, it is not wrong for these companies to want H1B employees. There are not enough US kids who are willing to do a days work that also have mad technical skills. And no, it is not wrong to encourage US kids to go to school and learn the latest technical skills. Even if they do not use them directly, and really many college graduates don't work in their field of study, these skills are useful not matter what. It is also wrong to live in a country where we think that workers do not have a right and need to organize in cartels just like employers do.

Re:Gates and Zuckerbergs Vision for America

[ub3r n3u7r4l1st]

And yes, on the corollary, I should be able to go to China and India and compete with the local kids for their jobs. Unfortunately their draconian regulations make it extremely tough to do so, even if the language barrier is not an issue.

Re:Gates and Zuckerbergs Vision for America

[ub3r n3u7r4l1st]

"It would be one thing if local employees could be tied to a job, but courts has awarded money for anti-poaching schemes. "

It could be easily done through the use of employment contracts that has to be renewed every X time periods based on performance. You salary is set during the terms of the contract, and you receive a bonus for finishing the term. If you leave you lose the bonus and unpaid benefits. This is similar to how academia operates.

Re:Gates and Zuckerbergs Vision for America

[Anonymous Coward]

This is no longer capitalism. Capitalism became an "ism"-- a kind of religious belief-- that arose out of a model of mining and manufacturing industries. Its dogma has been rewritten to address some aspects of service industries, but it does not do a good job of that-- capitalism is a bad model for the health care industry, for instance. And the software industry is so very different from mining, manufacturing, or service industries that capitalism does not fit at all.

No other industry in western history has had its most significant products/services forced to compete, and in some cases lose, to products of a gift economy. But OpenOffice, LibreOffice, all the Linux distros, the Apache family of Internet servers: these are all free products of a global gift economy that capitalism cannot explain, that won't go away, but which have so much impact on the economy that they can no longer be ignored. For Microsoft to continue in the same direction it has been going from 1980 to 2010, it does not need more code monkeys. Instead it needs a reduction in the number of coders who are contributing to the FOSS products that are making its proprietary ecosystem less and less relevant.

Capitalism needs to be ditched for some new, post-capitalistic, dogma. But the doctrinal changes that need to happen in the software industry are the kind of thing where advances are recognized somewhat after the funerals of the current prophets and pulpiteers.

Re:Gates and Zuckerbergs Vision for America

[I4ko]

Your post would have been funny if it was not informative. But alas it is. And this is exactly why I as a foreign H1-B holder am planning to leave the US. If you make it so bad, that I get a batter deal back at home, I have no reason to even want to come, especially not planning to have and raise children in what the US has become, but people are only now starting to realize. The sad part is.... after almost 6 years, thinking clearly through it, I already had a better deal back home and I wasted my best years for nothing. Even being a farmer in China, a worker on an oil rig in the sea, or a shepherd in New Zealand now seems preferable than being a H1 in US; and those are not easy jobs. You know, some place that does not thing only for the profit and for the price of the stocks at the next quarter board meeting. Publicly traded companies are the doom of all. No public company would do something out of pride of a job or a product well done or out of idealism. If it was a private one, perhaps 1 in 10000 would still care about the product, the service or the society they are rending it to.

Re:Gates and Zuckerbergs Vision for America

[serviscope_minor]

So no, it is not wrong for these companies to want H1B employees.

Yeah it is because it's unethical. I want cheaper workers, but I'm not going to sell my ever living soul to get them.

Re:Gates and Zuckerbergs Vision for America

[I4ko]

Any they don.t give a flying donkey's ass about the long run. All the care about is the next quarterly board and stockholder meeting. You know, they care to look good in front of the people that employ them, and hang on long enough to negotiate the next golden parachute.

Re:Gates and Zuckerbergs Vision for America

[I4ko]

Hey, you got it wrong.. Eat only but less ramen, it hurts my bottom line to feed all those slave...err...live in worker force.

Re:Gates and Zuckerbergs Vision for America

[I4ko]

No, the real problem is "right to work" states and two week notice. Make it like Europe - labour code, mandatory no-term (infinite term) contracts, 3 months notice, and needing a good reason to fire someone and most of it will just fall into place nicely. And one more thing - stop offering annual wage before taxes, only negotiate on net money coming to employee's account monthly.

Re:Gates and Zuckerbergs Vision for America

[Anonymous Coward]

Here is the thing. Apple, Facebook, MS, are all employers just like any other employer. They want to acquire employees at the least cost.

Dream on. Apple, Facebook, MS, etc. pay $150k+ per year to their mid-level developers.

It's not their fault you and your ilk don't qualify to work there.

Re:Gates and Zuckerbergs Vision for America

[AK Marc]

Is that why the red states are the most armed and the most anti-education? They don't want to make any more managers for the big revolution. But will be hunting them.

Re:Gates and Zuckerbergs Vision for America

[AK Marc]

Then the bubble burst and people lost jobs and workers had to pay huge taxes on stock incentives that were now worthless

The worker's failure to cash out of a bad investment doesn't mean it wasn't real income paid at the time it was earned.

Re:Gates and Zuckerbergs Vision for America

[Njorthbiatr]

I'm an investor. I prefer thinking for the long term.

Re: Gates and Zuckerbergs Vision for America

[Anonymous Coward]

These days every stock owner likes to call themselves investors. Unless you've been in the company before day 1, have participated and approved of the business plan you are no investor. You are just a regular speculant.

Re:Gates and Zuckerbergs Vision for America

[Anonymous Coward]

What an elaborate way to say you agree with slavery for profit since you have no confidence in the young you would rather exploit if only they'd get "mad technical skills" and let you pay them in pizza discount vouchers. Nevermind the older workers you conveniently disregard, or that lawyers are hired precisely to skirt laws and ensure no local applicants are found to fill jobs.

By the way the unions, at least in my country, are actively participating in selling out the worker's rights in enterprise bargaining agreements for paltry below inflation wage increases. It's a perfect storm. Your grandkids may not be able to afford a computer or phone to post on the internet with so go on keep cheering it on.

Re:Gates and Zuckerbergs Vision for America

[Anonymous Coward]

>There are not enough US kids who are willing to do a days work that also have mad technical skills

Bullshit. They just won't do it for 9 bucks an hour, and they won't work 14 hour days, because they want a work life balance and they want to work somewhere that doesn't treat them like shit.

Re:Gates and Zuckerbergs Vision for America

[Anonymous Coward]

This is not capitalism. It's cronyism, oligarchyism, and probably a number of other corruption-isms. If this were truly a level playing field, this wouldn't be a problem. There's massive arbitrage taking place here, and the end result will make this 1st world country look like a 3rd world country. You want your barefoot kids begging for food in the streets while they try to dodge the gates & zuckerberg limos that speed through town, almost running them over?

There is NO concern for the public here. People just parrot "be the best in your field" not understanding that doesn't work for the other 99% of the people in that field. Not many people can just jump to another field either due to various barriers put up that require massive amounts of money invested in education to happen. Money that isn't there if you're 40 and are supporting a family. The jobs you can just jump into are fewer now due to this happening to everyone, and won't pay nearly as much as you were getting, which might make that mortgage payment pretty difficult. Don't forget, this is happening in a bunch of areas, not just tech.

Unfortunately, the common answer you get this problem pretty much just amounts to "well, fuck you, I got mine."

Re:Gates and Zuckerbergs Vision for America

[Anonymous Coward]

Unfortunately, you're in the minority then. The real movers and shakers in the stock market don't seem to care about any of that, and will dump stock like a loaded diaper on a bad RUMOR, never mind factual news. This winds up really screwing companies over, so they wind up playing it extra safe and attempt to game the system to get the highest score in the only area that seems to count, stock price, no matter what the long term consequences are. That's why you see these destructive slash & burn policies of firing employees en masse in order to get the quarterly numbers up. Numbers up, stock up, bonus up. Move on to the next company and repeat.

Re:Gates and Zuckerbergs Vision for America

[roman_mir]

Individual freedom has never been as important as it is now and is needed more than ever. Individual freedom is exactly is what is missing and the 'libertarian song' as you derisively called it is exactly the idea of individual freedom.

Unions don't help people by the way, people outside of the unions cannot compete for those jobs since union is a labour monopoly. More to the point a union is not just about united individuals it is about special government protections that unions get, so it is about government oppression of individual freedoms.

Lastly you cannot force somebody give you a job. It is just not possible to do legitimately and if it were it would be completely immoral and against individual freedoms. Without freedoms an individual is nothing. Life without individual freedom is not worth anything.

Re:Gates and Zuckerbergs Vision for America

[Anonymous Coward]

Then perhaps you should force your company's compensation committee to weigh benefits more heavily on Long-Term measures with long stock vesting periods.

Re:Gates and Zuckerbergs Vision for America

[Anonymous Coward]

... that also have mad technical skills.

That's why Americans are training the H1B employees: Because Americans don't have technical skills and Bangladeshi immigrants do. I spot an flaw in your argument.

... not enough US kids ...

There's another practice popular with corporations: Outsourcing. It allows a corporation to replace skilled, high-cost employees with short-term, less-skilled, low-cost contractors. It also covers any skill shortage, without the need for flying-in Bangladeshi immigrants, whose presence emphasizes the double-standard on employee's rights.

Re:Gates and Zuckerbergs Vision for America

[Howitzer86]

I might be okay with this if not for the constant propaganda used to snare kids into this vicious cycle for their benefit. I mean, I guess eventually word will get around that these jobs won't pay well... after hundreds of thousands of people find out the hard way. The AC poster here has a good point I think. Computers aren't the end-all-be-all of everything. There's jobs people don't talk about or know about, that pay well and have decent hours and are sorely under-serviced.

Re:Gates and Zuckerbergs Vision for America

[Anonymous Coward]

Typical. Business wants to eat its cake and have it too. And is too stupid to see why that's utter nonsense.

Re:Gates and Zuckerbergs Vision for America

[Anonymous Coward]

>I think it's time we teach our kids valuable skills they'll need in the future. How to hold and use a rifle. How to tie a hangman's knot. How to spot a manager trying to blend into the crowd...

This is correct. The only actual solution is force.

Re:Gates and Zuckerbergs Vision for America

[Opportunist]

Well, looking back in our history as a species, it seems to be eventually the only thing that eventually leads to change. Anything else has been tried and failed.

But don't start it too early. First, you need the army on your side. Without, using force is decidedly not a good idea, if history is any indicator.

Re:Gates and Zuckerbergs Vision for America

[Anonymous Coward]

There are not enough US kids who are willing to do a days work that also have mad technical skills.

My Son has been looking for a job for over 8 months. He is willing and has always worked hard. He has mad skills yet he can't get past the dumb shit Head Hunters and HR. He is looked down on because he has held a steady job for over ten years. He didn't bang around from one job to the next.

So don't give me that shit. It is most likely some asshole like you is the one in the way of my Son getting hired.

Hell leave the US and go to India asshole.

Re:Gates and Zuckerbergs Vision for America

[Anonymous Coward]

Things would be so much better if there were some modest basic income or a negative income tax. To provide some level of security since employment cannot be guaranteed.

Regarding the actual question

[stevelinton]

Comes to timing. The K-12 CS students are not going to fill the vacancies advertised today, but they might fill the ones advertised in 4-15 years time, reducing the need for H-1Bs at that time

Re:Regarding the actual question

[Anonymous Coward]

This assumes there is any shortage of IT workers now, not to even go into the fact that H1B is largely a vehicle of exploitation, wage manipulation, and offshoring.

I always wondered about that

[Ol Olsoc]

Why on earth are we trying toteach coding to everyone, and obliterating the the sexual discrimination in STEM, only to have no jobs for the newly trained US citizens?

Seems like getting more people trained in the art of making buggy whips and sealing wax.

Re:I always wondered about that

[Opportunist]

So we no longer have to pay engineers like they produce anything meaningful. Just because it takes brains to do that job doesn't mean they have to earn more than burger flippers, ya know?

Re:I always wondered about that

[Anonymous Coward]

After 30 years of professional programming I find flipping burger and baking pizza in a wood fired stone oven far more rewarding than programming.

Re:I always wondered about that

[Anonymous Coward]

I wouldn't worry. The truth is that you can't train someone to have an aptitude for something. There's a strong undercurrent of positivism in modern educational dogma: "You can be anything you want!" The sad truth is: no you can't. Everyone has certain aptitudes and certain potential. The current initiatives like code.org will turn out people who can put a few things together, follow recipes they find online, etc. But at the end of the day, it won't increase the number of people who have an aptitude to excel in the field. Also, there's the interest factor. Some people consider software development tedious and boring. These initiatives won't change that.

Re:I always wondered about that

[Anonymous Coward]

If Zuckerberg and Gates have their way, then the software they produce is what today's students would be trained on, which gives them a large, new target market: the schools and all the parents who want to give their kids the very best chance to get high grades. If the kids are using Microsoft in the schools, well then they are less likely to get an Android or iWhatever and more likely to go with a Microsoft phone or tablet (do these really exist yet?) And with all the MS and FB indoctrinated graduates emerging from high schools, the continued success of those closed gardens would be guaranteed.

If schools were to look closely at alternatives in terms of cost/benefit rather than bells/whistles and slick marketing devices, they might well gravitate toward Linux based solutions. In several European countries, Brazil, and elsewhere these have proven to be much less expensive to set up, operate, and upgrade. If the USA went with Linux in its schools, that would hurt Microsoft very badly.

Re:I always wondered about that

[Anonymous Coward]

The only sexual discrimination in STEM is unqualified women getting jobs that should have gone to qualified men.

http://www.pnas.org/content/112/17/5360.abstract

Re:I always wondered about that

[Ol Olsoc]

I wouldn't worry. The truth is that you can't train someone to have an aptitude for something. There's a strong undercurrent of positivism in modern educational dogma: "You can be anything you want!" The sad truth is: no you can't. Everyone has certain aptitudes and certain potential.

Isn't it odd? Seems like a person having a talent for something is somehow bad today. But today we seem to believe that anyone can be Einstein if only we apply ourselves.

That kind of thinking might even be part of the problems that some young people have with depression these days. When they try and fail the you can be anything you want mentality has only one person to blame - you. Well sorta, but I don't want to get in that issue again.

The current initiatives like code.org will turn out people who can put a few things together, follow recipes they find online, etc. But at the end of the day, it won't increase the number of people who have an aptitude to excel in the field. Also, there's the interest factor. Some people consider software development tedious and boring. These initiatives won't change that.

I liken it to one part of my work, which is 3-D animation. I've had people tell me they want ot learn how to design objects and "do 3-D". It usually takes about 15 minutes for them to remember something else they had to do.

It's similar to coding in that it takes a metric ton of attention to detail, and doesn't happen at all like they envisioned it. Most people are simply not focused enough - and that isn't an insult. I had an helper once who had some attention span issues. He could do some awesome things when you didn't drive him out of hisrange. I was happy to have him there.But he wasn't ever going to do coding or 3-D work.

Re:I always wondered about that

[0123456]

Isn't it odd? Seems like a person having a talent for something is somehow bad today. But today we seem to believe that anyone can be Einstein if only we apply ourselves.

Modern left-wing dogma is based on 'we're all the same under the skin!' and there's no inherent differences between people and some just succeed through luck so we must take all their stuff and give it to the unlucky ones.

Admit that some people just aren't as good as others at some things, and the whole scam collapses.

Re:I always wondered about that

[Anonymous Coward]

They're just Ultron's puppets. They think they're dancing for shareholders, but it's actually the Cylons who are audience to this song and dance.

"The Capitalists will sell us the rope with which we will hang them."
Vladimir Ilyich Lenin

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1968HY4DKc

Re:I always wondered about that

[AmiMoJo]

What evidence do you have that certain people just can't do certain things because of lack of natural ability? Obviously some people have developmental issues, but in the far East where the attitude is that if you work hard you can learn anything it seems to be true.

With enough effort and support a person of average intelligence can learn to do most things, most jobs. Software engineering isn't some high science that requires exceptional minds, it's a process that can be learned and which is as much experience and knowledge as it is skill.

Re:I always wondered about that

[Anonymous Coward]

I can take lesson, exercise regularly, train diligently; I will NEVER make a living off of playing tennis.

Re:I always wondered about that

[Opportunist]

You're forgetting who you're dealing with: MBAs. From the old "the knave thinks others are like him" they extrapolate that if anyone can learn what's necessary to push pencils and fill Excel sheets, anyone can learn anything.

Re:I always wondered about that

[Opportunist]

If you can teach me to play the guitar (and trust me on this one, I've tried EVERYTHING), I'll believe you.

For the better part of the past 5 years I've been trying to learn this instrument. And I don't mean "pick it up every once in a while", I mean learn. Daily. Mostly because I'm not the kind of person that gives something up when I really, and I mean REALLY, want it.

But slowly I think I have to admit defeat. My fingers just don't want to stretch across bars. It takes me half an eternity to put my fingers down on the strings in such a way that they actually "ring". And we better not start with bar chords.

Until I insisted in learning to play the guitar, I would have believed you. Because I eventually learned to do anything. But this seems to be my limit.

Re:I always wondered about that

[AmiMoJo]

I'm the same, my fingers don't reach and arthritis makes it hard to stretch. I was not talking about physical limitations though, I meant the mental capacity to understand and master the concepts.

The problem: Monopoly

[Anonymous Coward]

When there's an abundance of workers in a certain field, these can be hired cheaply. In a healty market, this implies that a company creating their products more cheaply can drop prices for their customers - and it will happen by market forces, as if one company doesn't, another will (there is many burger flippers, and burgers can be had quite cheaply).
The same does not hold true for microsoft or facebook. Even if labor was free, another company will have troubles to get into the same market. Hence, surplus workforce in this field causes one thing only: Gain for the companies with monopolies.

Re:The problem: Monopoly

[Opportunist]

Huh? What ivory tower do you live in?

Production cost only affect one part of the decision process: Whether or not a product gets produced. If the production cost is higher than the possible sales revenue, it will not be produced.

The price of a product is entirely dependent on the spot where it's possible to maximize revenue. Price never has, and never will, be affected by production cost, unless cost pushes against the price to the point where profit becomes zero. Then, and only then, cost will push the price upwards or the product is discontinued due to being unprofitable (in its most literal sense, being unable to profit).

Dropping costs have never caused prices to drop. Never. All lower costs ever did was increasing the profit margin until someone came along and decided to make do with a lower profit margin. Then, and only then, prices dropped. Competition is what drives prices down. Lower costs only mean more profit.

Re:The problem: Monopoly

[Anonymous Coward]

? Dropping costs have never caused prices to drop. ?

Really? Technology is the one area where consumer prices have fallen the most.

Re:The problem: Monopoly

[Anonymous Coward]

You're right that companies set prices to maximize profit. Though you're wrong about the consequence of that: production costs do influence what the optimal price is. Suppose you could sell 1 million units at $10 or 2 million units at $9. If your cost is $7 per unit, you should sell at $9. If your cost is $8.9 per unit, you should sell at $10. That doesn't even get into economies of scale. This example works even if there are no competitors, but people are willing to forgo the good or will buy less of it if the price is higher.

Re:The problem: Monopoly

[Opportunist]

Yes, and when did that start? Before or after Intel finally had a competitor for the CPU market (well, one where the CPUs weren't just kinda-sorta-pretty-much-but-not-quite compatible)?

Name ONE SINGLE instance where you can't immediately trace it to stiff competition. Ram and storage are both dirt cheap, due to a lot of suppliers. Even SSDs are rather cheap, despite being the latest and greatest development in the area. In the CPU market you only have two suppliers, and you will notice that the prices reflect that. GPUs you have nVidia as the leader with ATI doing its best to keep up, and the prices show it.

But maybe you could explain to me the price development of de-facto standard software in various areas. You might notice that these prices actually went up with time rather than down. And that there is more often than not no sensible competitor in sight. Or who'd you suggest is a viable competitor to Adobe (be it Acrobat, Flash or Photoshop)?

Re:The problem: Monopoly

[CrimsonAvenger]

Dropping costs have never caused prices to drop. Never.

Never?

The machine I'm typing this on cost less than the computer I was using twenty years ago. And has many times the memory, mass storage, and processor speed.

So MUCH better machine for rather less. Sounds like a price drop as a result of dropping costs to me. Or are you asserting that terabyte hard-drives are just as expensive as they were twenty years ago? Ditto 4gig of RAM, etc...

So, provide your interpretation as to the reasons for my current laptop to be cheaper than what it replaced, that doesn't include lowered costs....

Re:The problem: Monopoly

[Opportunist]

How many companies make Ram, Storage? How much does Ram and Storage cost? Compared to earlier?
How many companies make CPUs and GPUs? How much do they cost? Compared to earlier?
How many companies make operating systems (suitable for average desktop work)? How much do they cost? Compared to earlier?

Re: The problem: Monopoly

[Catbeller]

RAM prices stayed high long after production costs dropped. It took government action - overseas, I recall- to punish the collusion and price-fixing and force the prices to drop. There ain't no such thing as a free market.

H1-Bs rock

[Anonymous Coward]

It's awesome for me, as a startup founder. The American workers typically want between 130k-160k but the foreigners (mostly here on student visas) are happy with 40k. So I can hire 3 or 4 foreign engineers for every 1 American engineer.

We need to greatly expand this program so employers can create more jobs.

Re:H1-Bs rock

[Opportunist]

You mean destroy more jobs.

Re:H1-Bs rock

[Joe_Dragon]

and you want 60-80 hours a week for that 40K and it's in the bay area where rent is very high.

Re:H1-Bs rock

[Anonymous Coward]

And why exactly is creating more jobs important? If they're filled by H1-Bs then they don't really do anything about unemployment. Four workers at 40k might add more to consumer spending than one at 160k, and they'd certainly affect different parts of it, but that one would add more in tax revenue and investment spending, so that difference is probably a wash.

Re:H1-Bs rock

[Anonymous Coward]

You have no idea what you are talking about.

Bay Area hiring manager. New average college grads are paid $100K+ - H1-B, F1, or US citizen.

If ARE you in the Bay area getting paid 40K then look for another job, today. Those H1-Bs are **PORTABLE**. You can get another job as easily as anyone else, just gotta drop a FYI form into the mail moving the visa to the new employer. You can change employers immediately, you don't even need to wait for the change of employer form to be processed (just make *sure* it is filled out properly). The H1-B is not indentured servitude, you can compete for jobs with everyone else.

The H1-B does affect supply and demand, but not in the way you people all think. The supply is global. If there is no local supply. The demand moves offshore.

You know what happens when I try and try and try and fail to hire enough developers in the Bay area (for anywhere from $100K to $500K+ depending on experience)? The project gets done anyway, but the work gets moved to Canada or India or China where the visa issue doesn't restrict my ability to hire.

I'd rather relocate those people to the Bay area - pay them competitive local wages, have them pay local taxes, spend money in the local economy etc. But becuase of visa caps I can't do that. Having a distributed team across timezones causes a *lot* more problems than simply paying a competitive local wage. If I apply for a H1-B for them they have about a 30% chance of being picked in the lottery each year. I can't run my business with that level of uncertainty, so the jobs go offshore!!! I fail to see how that is a good outcome for the US.

Where the H1-Bs *ARE* badly badly abused is by Indian outsoucing companies, not by places like Microsoft. It gets abused in two ways:
1) They will bring in one barely qualified person as a local contact on a H1-B visa. That person will interact with the client and send all the work to be done overnight in India.
2) They will bring in barely qualified workers, train them (to replace expensive US workers), then send them back to India to continue for less money. The way the visa laws are written - the the visas are only for TEMPORARY workers - all but encourages this!!!

Tightening up on the above two would seriously improve the H1-B situation for legitimate US companies. It's not the current requirements, but the job should be for an *ongoing* position, not just temporary. If you've got a history of using H1-Bs for short term contracts then no more visas for you Mr off-shoring company.

Re:H1-Bs rock

[ub3r n3u7r4l1st]

The $100K+ you saved will not be enough to pay for the potential loss of IP / code theft. That is why our place no longer hire curry niggers a few years ago. We exclusively hire US citizens and the work morale, profit both improved.

The premium for the American work ethics is worth it.

Re:H1-Bs rock

[Anonymous Coward]

Then stop shopping for H1-Bs and hire locally. You can fill your ranks perfectly well if you are willing to pay enough; that's the whole point. Competition for labor is what drives wages up, and wages have been stagnant for years thanks to your efforts: local talent is too expensive, so you're seeking employees that will work for less and watering down the labor pool, all in one fell swoop. You're a terrible fucking person.

Re:H1-Bs rock

[I4ko]

Cry me a river.. New college grads in Bay Area start at round 75k. Almost no one pays 100k+. The prevailing wage stats are screwed up, because of a few companies that really pay 3x or 4x, but those can be counted on the fingers of one hand.

Re:H1-Bs rock

[Anonymous Coward]

H1-B visas may be portable, but the employer sponsored green card applications are not. As soon as you switch to a different employer, the process starts again. It is the employer sponsored green card that is held over H1-B's heads, given that that it takes 5-10 years to get a green card for certain nationals. This is one reason why legitimate companies like H1-B's (Indian outsourcing companies don't sponsor green card applications).

Re:H1-Bs rock

[Anonymous Coward]

You could move the work to a cheaper part of USA instead of off-shoring, but no. It's either a crappy, high expensive place to live or another country. You don't force foreign works to migrate to the bay area so why do you attempt to force US citizens? By moving the work to a different area in the US you stay within a nearby timezone, don't have to worry about 30% of your workforce disappearing, and they'll be less language and cultural miscommunications. That's not even counting the expensives saved not having to worry about foreign laws, taxes, and HR issues.

What's the real reason you're using H1-Bs or moving work offshore? All your arguments fall apart if you relocate some work to a different part of the country. And don't say you can't do that because you clearly can. It's way easier to move to a different state than it is to move to a different country. Your shortsightedness and self-delusions (or maybe you're just lying) are what's bad for the US.

Re:H1-Bs rock

[Anonymous Coward]

What is the name of your company?

Re:H1-Bs rock

[Anonymous Coward]

Have you been to flyover country? Those people not only smell bad and talk funny, they are religious fanatics that would gladly kill you in the name of their GAWD. They only have the virtue that you can pay them less, not that they are smart enough to get the job done.

Personally, I'd take my chances in a move civilized part of the world like India, Pakistan, or China.

Re:H1-Bs rock

[Anonymous Coward]

maybe you should try Midwest America. You could pay competitive wages( at a lower cost ) and still get great talent.

Re:H1-Bs rock

[fluffernutter]

Why do slashdot posters always quote salaries in the bay area?? Good on you if you are in the bay area or can move to the bay area, but most people are:
1) not in the bay area, and
2) cannot move to the bay area
There is such a thing as family obligations and local ties to community. One hotspot in the US is not good enough.

Re:H1-Bs rock

[Anonymous Coward]

As a tech worker in the US, the requirements asked for positions such as this are ridiculous. I've been watching listings requiring a 4 year college degree, at least 4 years of related experience and a laundry list of skills just to get into an entry level position. The "shortage" of skilled labor is really just a shortage of imaginary people willing to start at the bottom after almost a decade of actually doing the work without the need for a college degree.

Re:H1-Bs rock

[RyoShin]

The project gets done anyway, but the work gets moved to Canada or India or China

So you've already tried hiring in Iowa, or Colorado, or Montana, or Mississippi? Every American state and territory before looking out of the country?

If not, why not? You complained about time zones, but a time difference of 4-5 hours is better than 11-12. Because they're not in the Bay area? Neither are the folks in Canada or India or China. Are you requiring that folks from other states move to the Bay area? I'm sure there are a lot of people that, even for good money, would not want to move at all. (And, again, neither would the folks in Canada or India or...)

Re: H1-Bs rock

[Anonymous Coward]

triple any amount you would be saving and that is what you will be paying in taxes for welfare since most of them will have to go on it since you're importing foreign workers using the power of government to run people off who are very well qualified.

Re:H1-Bs rock

[ub3r n3u7r4l1st]

Yup I know about those Islamic countries you are talking about.

Re:H1-Bs rock

[Anonymous Coward]

National Socialist American Workers Party

To hell with fairness

[Opportunist]

Cheap labor is what we need!

No.

[Anonymous Coward]

Because we all know who they're going to hire. Given equal education and experience, they'll take the foreign worker that they can exploit for half the wage and send home packing the first time s/he complains over a local talent every single time. We all know it's true.

Get rid of him

[koan]

It's as simple as not using Facebook, I know, I know... you're "trapped" on it now because you were stupid enough to use it in the first place.

Zuck: They "trust me"
Zuck: Dumb fucks

-Mark Zuckerberg

Re:Get rid of him

[sound vision]

Deleted my Facebook account in January (after 6 months of not using it, to be sure I wouldn't become a quit-and-return) and haven't looked back.

Had to do literally 10 captchas (not because I failed, but because they make you jump through 10 of them) and click through pages and pages of warnings for them to tell me they'll delete my account in a week or two... that's AFTER finding the deletion link, which I didn't even get through their site, but had to Google for. Delete now before they just take away the option altogether.

Re:Get rid of him

[koan]

Amen.

As long as the jobs actually go to the kids

[msobkow]

As long as the jobs actually go to the kids in the end, I see no issue with the companies covering their bases.

After all, there is no guarantee whatsoever that the training programs are actually going to entice a significant number of kids to enter STEM careers. There have always been science classes and science clubs, yet the percentage of people pursuing STEM careers has always been relatively low.

Re:As long as the jobs actually go to the kids

[HiThere]

There's also absolutely no guarantee that anybody will be hiring those skills. Why should the rich bastards be the only ones who demand guarantees?

Were I advising someone in school, I'd look at the current economics of STEM professions, and the BS surrounding them, and advise the students to study foreign languages. Or *something* besides STEM. Otherwise in 20 years you'll have a huge debt and no way to ever pay it off.

Re:As long as the jobs actually go to the kids

[msobkow]

The only "guarantee" is that people will always need plumbers, electricians, and other tradespeople.

Re:As long as the jobs actually go to the kids

[0123456]

The only "guarantee" is that people will always need plumbers, electricians, and other tradespeople.

Yes, but, in ten or twenty years, Indian and Chinese plumbers will be doing that work over the Internet with plumbing drones.

Re:As long as the jobs actually go to the kids

[HiThere]

Sorry, but I don't even accept that as guaranteed. Too many things that people thought were "hard problems" turned out to be relatively easy. I'd bet the hard part of being an electricial is object recognition.

Selfishness 101

[Tablizer]

As a CEO, you want cheaper labor and more labor choice. The "side" impact to society of getting that is of no concern to the CEO if it doesn't affect the bottom line. And there is almost no penalty in spinning the truth to get it.

Re: Selfishness 101

[Anonymous Coward]

a permanent underclass that cannot afford to buy that company's products will manifest itself within 10 years if this government atrocity is not stopped. if you want to know how the 1 percent get richer this is it: crony capitalism at its worst!

Or...

[Anonymous Coward]

This is why we need to revamp the educational system in America -- to train young thralls how to compete in the workplace of the future

Or maybe we just need to revamp US employment, tax and immigration laws to prevent so called "job creators" from creating the feudal system of the future.

Re:Or...

[Anonymous Coward]

You run into an even bigger problem with this approach: politicians are owned by the ultra rich company heads, therefore answering to them and not you or I. If you can figure out a non-violent way to fix this problem, I'd like to hear it.

Promising same jobs...?

[fustakrakich]

Yes, they are playing a shell game, and you the routine, the house always wins.

Re:Promising same jobs...?

[fustakrakich]

I stared at that damn comment for three minutes! And the word just... disappeared..

Blame HR demands

[Billly Gates]

When they boss around IT managers with need +10 years experience in html5 Android development the only hits are Indian recruiters saying my guys have +10 years of Android & html5 experience in Bangalore then what are you going to do?

Then HR screams raise the caps!! No qualified workers exist and pass it off to the mbas

Re:Blame HR demands

[crtreece]

Indian recruiters saying my guys have +10 years of Android & html5 experience

They aren't lying. There are 120 guys there, and they average 3 months experience each. Tadaaa, they have 10 years experience. /s

US has responsibility to save the world

[Anonymous Coward]

US needs to help the poorest people of the world by giving them the best salaries in the best jobs. This will help spread the wealth so it isn't just concentrated in the hands of American workers.

We just need more talent!

[mmattb]

>>> "promise the same jobs to U.S. kids and foreign H-1B workers" ??? I think people have this confusion that if somebody takes a Software Dev job on an H-1B, that that means they are taking a job an American would have otherwise. Maybe in some regions of the country? But in my experience there are WAY more openings for highly talented engineers than there are people qualified to fill them. I'm a Sr. Software Dev working for a $1bil company, growing 30%+/year, and I can say - one of our biggest velocity killers is our ability to bring on qualified people fast enough. Believe me - we would hire more Americans if there were more qualified ones applying! There are plenty of 'programmers' in the U.S., but the ones who actually know what they are doing are very difficult to find and keep! So it makes total sense to expand training in the U.S. while seeking talent elsewhere at the same time...

Re:We just need more talent!

[techno-vampire]

If you can't hire and keep enough American talent, your first step is to ask yourself why. Is the salary you're offering too low? Are you expecting them to work too many hours? Are your other benefits, such as health care inadequate? How are working conditions at your office, compared to other companies in your field? Or, are your expectations and job requirements unreasonable? There has to be a reason, and the odds are that it's something you can fix once you've pinpointed it. But just saying that there aren't enough qualified Americans and that your company can't survive without H-1B workers isn't going to solve your long-term issues.

Re:We just need more talent!

[Anonymous Coward]

Super ignorant.... Yes, some companies have issues that stop them from hiring the people they would like, I doubt his company is one of them. I also work for a massive IT / Software company experiencing massive growth. Wages here are very high, working conditions are pretty good, the location is great. We cannot hire enough good people fast enough. I've seen plenty of people in interviews that just aren't good enough. Whenever someone walks through the door that is good enough, we throw money at them.

We have to hire foreign workers because of the lack of credible candidates.The foreign workers get the same money that a local work would. They are actually more expensive because we pay them the same, give them the same benefits AND have to pay for their visa and re-location. Why would we go to that expensive effort if we didn't need too?

Re:We just need more talent!

[Anonymous Coward]

Also, he never said that they couldn't retain talent. They just have a hard time finding enough of it. Fuckheaded posts like yours fuck me off.

Re:We just need more talent!

[techno-vampire]

Why would we go to that expensive effort if we didn't need too?

Is it possible that you're setting the bar too high and expect too much, too soon from your new hires? Remember, if you want people to stay with you and not jump ship quickly, you need to expect them to grow into the job because if they can already do everything you need, they're not going to be interested in what you want, they'll be looking for new challenges and new things to learn and they'll leave as soon as they find it. I don't know if this applies in the slightest to your situation, but judging only from what you've written here, it looks like a possibility.

Re:We just need more talent!

[techno-vampire]

If they could retain talent, they wouldn't have to worry as much about finding it. As far as your last sentence goes, that's got to be your problem, because I'm not making it mine.

Re:We just need more talent!

[Fallen Kell]

There are plenty of 'programmers' in the U.S., but the ones who actually know what they are doing are very difficult to find and keep!

No, really, they are not that difficult to find and keep. They might be difficult to find and keep when another company is offering a 20% raise over their existing salary and you don't match it. But that isn't actually "difficult" in the sense of the word, that is just market forces saying that you arn't paying enough.

Re:We just need more talent!

[Anonymous Coward]

Where do you expect these people to come from if you don't train them? This is the root of everyone's problems. You pay someone $$$$ to leave their current job and work for you (then a bigger company does it to you), hire a questionable employee from a failed company or who was fired or is lying about their experience, or hire someone without enough experience and train them yourself. I don't have any experience managing a high traffic website, nor will I ever unless a company hires and teaches me. Some things are too expensive to train yourself in.

Let your senior people train the junior developers. If all you're trying to hire are senior workers and specialists you're doing it wrong.

Re:We just need more talent!

[Anonymous Coward]

If you can't hire and keep enough American talent, your first step is to ask yourself why. Is the salary you're offering too low? Are you expecting them to work too many hours? Are your other benefits, such as health care inadequate? How are working conditions at your office, compared to other companies in your field? Or, are your expectations and job requirements unreasonable?

It's clear that you've never been in a tech company at one of the major hubs. My past and present employers meet all those criteria easily and it's still damned difficult to find competent software engineers and when you find one, you have to bid against the other tech companies in the area to get them. Mostly the people who show up are bottom feeders who can kinda, sorta code a little. Nobody wants them because they would be a unmitigated disaster working on a shipping product that requires reliable, maintainable and secure code.

That being said, nobody wants the vast majority of H1-Bs either because they're just as bad or worse. The ones that are good get the same white-glove treatment as the good ones here. We have to pay them just as much as the locals and eat their H1-B costs as well.

There has to be a reason, and the odds are that it's something you can fix once you've pinpointed it. But just saying that there aren't enough qualified Americans and that your company can't survive without H-1B workers isn't going to solve your long-term issues.

All the people who are reasonably competent that I know already have jobs and even a couple who are not particularly good. So, likewise, if you can't find a job, "there has to be a reason, and the odds are that it's something you can fix once you've pinpointed it." (Hint: it most likely involves vastly improving one's skills.) Even if every H1-B opening were eliminated tomorrow, it wouldn't make the unqualified candidates any more employable.

Re:We just need more talent!

[mmattb]

Yep, those are all part of the equation, there is no doubt. Like all companies trying to compete to nab the 10Xers out there, we have to (and do) put a huge amount of resources into all of the above. But do you think that that makes anything I said untrue? The reason we have to jump through those hoops is that demand for talent like that is really really high relative to supply, which is essentially the point of my comment.

Re:We just need more talent!

[techno-vampire]

But do you think that that makes anything I said untrue?

No. I was just pointing out the probability that part of the problem is at your end, and that you should take a good look at what you're offering, and ask yourself if that may be part of the trouble. The worst thing that can happen is that you find that your company is right in the middle of the pack for pay, benefits and other workplace considerations and that there's nothing you need to do (except possibly increase pay, if you think it will help) to make yourselves more attractive.

Bait & Switch

[Anonymous Coward]

Use the H1B's to bring down the salaries, then overtrain the kids into Facebook and Microsoft specific technologies so they can lay off any older staff, but the kids won't be able to work anywhere else. They're trying to turn America into a company town, with the company deciding who eats at the company store and gets company "script".

Their "focus on training" is overfocused and won't produce computer scientists. It will produce drones who will never, never, argue with the "Big Vision" people.

If you want to hire the brightest

[fullback]

you'll have a hard time finding them among US kids.

The US ranks 36th in the world in math, reading and science. The top seven are all from Asia. More than 25% of the US are below the median, and only 8% are above. More than 55% of the top seven countries are above the median and only about 8% are below.

There is the problem. While you're giving everyone trophies and thinking about the racial mix of a classroom, the rest of the world is studying.

Until slavery returns, students will do.

[gestalt_n_pepper]

Sure, it's a little costlier than a full blown slave at a Chinese Apple phone factory, but be assured, it's only a temporary setback until we can get indentured servitude for student loan defaults back on the books.

Double-Dippers

[Anonymous Coward]

Double-dipping is a nasty habit.

Time to evolve or die, buggy whip makers

[Anonymous Coward]

And part of WORKING HARD ENOUGH is WORKING CHEAP ENOUGH.

As has been popularly said on this site, nobody promised you a living doing the same thing for your entire life. Someone out there is just as (poorly) qualified as most of you are but is willing to work for less? Well isn't that just too damned bad.

Like the buggy whip makers and the RIAA / MPAA, it's time for IT workers to evolve or die.

South Park

[Anonymous Coward]

They Took Our Jobs!

Age Discrimmination Problem

[randalware]

I trained to be a IT professional.

All ways good in my working career until I hit 40 after that it was much harder to get a job.

If your training is only good for 20 years of work, the pay has to go way up.

Employers want cheap slave labor, not workers with wisdom, families, and an outside life.

Re:Age Discrimmination Problem

[sound vision]

When did you hit 40? It might just be the job market going to shit. It dropped off the first big cliff in the dot-com boom, and it dropped of a second, arguably bigger cliff in the banking crisis.

Discouraging future generations

[dougg76]

I have discouraged my children and most others that I know in IT / Software are discouraging their children from pursuing CS / IT degrees. While there are plenty of jobs, there are few careers.

Re:Discouraging future generations

[Anonymous Coward]

While there are plenty of jobs, there are few careers.

So?

They're having existing workers train H1-Bs

[Karmashock]

That puts the lie to the skills argument.

There are no ethics

[rsilvergun]

in business. I think that was the Grandparent's point. You can do anything to anyone when it's "Just Business"...

Re:There are no ethics

[the grace of R'hllor]

You can do anything you want to anyone, period. The difference is that being an unethical asshole has consequences in other areas. The deficiency lies with business.

Not the same thing

[Anonymous Coward]

A person lining in a third world country would not mind spending two to four years abroad in employee living quarters to make a third of what the people in US used to earn. But the person living in US has a harder time competing with them because they have to pay for their mortgage.

Re:Not the same thing

[ruir]

Why are they paying for their mortgage in the first place? If you cannot afford a home, rent one.

Skills supply vs demand

[Anonymous Coward]

The specific jobs that are listed today won't actually be there by the time the 10 and 12-year old American kids graduate from college. By that time, it could be that even the technical skill sets employers are hiring for will be different.

They were hoping you'd be bright enough to figure that out.

Maybe Gates and Zuck are saying, "Look, American companies have all these IT jobs they've been trying to fill, preferably on US soil. We need more talent! Homegrown talent would be great, otherwise, we'll need to bring them in from outside."

This!!! I work in a recruiting company for technical jobs, and more often than not, people with the required skillsets are not Americans, but more often than not Indians, and some Chinese and Russians thrown in. Client needs someone who knows SAP ABAP or Oracle Primavera or SalesForce.com or SharePoint... I do a search on the job boards, and find few Americans available for any salary. It's not the money: it's more that fewer Americans are into IT, maybe due to the perception - rightly or wrongly - about such jobs getting offshored.

Anyway, companies like Microsoft, FaceBook and even other companies in other market segments - Wells Fargo, Walmart, FedEx, et al - require these very skills. Not just a generic 'programmer' or 'software developer' or 'software engineer', but people who are SMEs in the tools or platforms they already have. Why? Because that's where they have sunk their cash, and if they have to get people with different skills, there's a good chance that they'd have to sink new cash into other tools that the new hires are familiar with. So they look all over the US for programmers who are either citizens or permanent residents, and when they don't find them here, they either try to get someone abroad here on an H1B (maybe due to the need to interface with clients here) or ask someone in Bangalore or Moscow or somewhere else in Eastern Europe to do it. Yeah, they want it done cheaper, since that cost ultimately gets transferred to the client, but more often than not, the issue is not getting it done cheaper, but getting it done in the first place.

The idea of getting US kids to develop such skills is a long sighted one - so that instead of having to bitch about how there are no jobs for them when they grow up, they are ready to take such jobs when they grow up. As others have pointed out here, there are skills that foreign programmers just don't have - a primary one being the ability to communicate seamlessly with Americans. So it's not that if they develop skills in things like SAP or Oracle, their jobs will suddenly be replaced by 10 people in Elbonia (and to this day, I have rarely seen any SAP consultant - American or H1B - come cheap). One thing is true though - unlike in the 90s when developers were very mobile between jobs due to the opportunity to rake in a windfall, that won't be happening anytime soon, if ever. But not due to a price disparity between American and foreign workers.

Re:Skills supply vs demand

[Anonymous Coward]

"SAP ABAP or Oracle Primavera or SalesForce.com or SharePoint"
"The idea of getting US kids to develop such skills is a long sighted one"

The idea that SalesForce.com is a SKILL is your first mistake.

Re:Skills supply vs demand

[Anonymous Coward]

Sez someone who likely doesn't have Salesforce.com at his company, and doesn't need people who'd implement or configure it according to their requirements.

Don't be a protectionist

[samantha]

We should be able to hire anyone we wish to fill jobs we have to offer from anywhere on earth they may currently live IFF they can fulfill the job requirements are are willing to abide by our laws. That is the only stance consistent with freedom and rationality. A potential hire is not better or more deserving of a job just by virtue of being an American. I have worked in software in Silicon Valley for 35 years and there are deep problem finding qualified software engineers. Companies I have been at have lost good talent due to visa snafus and quota and time limits.

So stop pretending that H1B visa holders are a threat to some supposed right you have to a job you do not otherwise qualify for. And don't bring out that they work a lot cheaper. In all cases I was involved in the visa holder was being paid the same as other workers in the position.

Re:Don't be a protectionist

[Anonymous Coward]

even if they work for cheaper, I dont understand the arguments of those throwing a fit about it;

someone is willing to do the same job as you for cheaper? Thats injustice? gtfo [not you obviously, but those making that argument]

Re:Don't be a protectionist

[Anonymous Coward]

It's about more than dollars and cents; it's about things like social cohesion; taking care of one's OWN community, etc. Do you really believe that labor operates in a free market, devoid of manipulation by those who want to decrease the cost of labor on the balance sheet? If you do, you have a lot to learn.

Re:Don't be a protectionist

[oh_my_080980980]

LMOL right go talk to other industrialized nations; everyone has a restriction on who can work there. Don't like it move to Somalia.

Hilarious

[Anonymous Coward]

its super hilarious to see the same people that bitch about women bitching about "equality in the workforce," "affirmative action," etc etc [all of which I bitch about too] are suddenly gung ho about the injustices caused by businesses looking to hire foreign workers who will do the same work for less pay, and possibly faster.

haha, go hard or go home

Do you want jobs in the US at all?

[Anonymous Coward]

Clearly they should just ship the jobs overseas to begin with and save themselves the all the blowback involved in trying to fill jobs in the US.

The nonexceptionalism of american workers.

[jnwrd]

Enough with the economic nationalism already. Ask yourself this: Why do kids born in America deserve higher wages and better jobs than immigrants? Are the immigrants not human too? In response to all of this "progressive" weeping over the loss of american jobs to globalization, I would just respond that this same globalization has pulled far more humans out of poverty than any aid program ever has or will.

Re:The nonexceptionalism of american workers.

[Anonymous Coward]

In a fair economy they don't, but keep in mind that the same wage in USD can buy you much more in India than in USA.
In a fair economy, wages in USA would collapse to Indian levels, but so would asset prices. What's keeping asset prices high is government policy with various QE mechanisms and programs to save the banks.

So the question then is: Is it fair to Americans to get "Indian wages," while the American asset prices are kept artificially high (not by market, but by policy)?

Re:The nonexceptionalism of american workers.

[oh_my_080980980]

Actually, it's not our responsibility to fix your country. Fix your country if you want better paying jobs.

Time for IT workers to actually *do* something?

[walterbyrd]

We all know the situation is bullshit. So we bitch, and send each other links to articles. As if that will fix the problem.

Situation-1:

Manager: you're fired. Train your H1B replacement before you go, or you get no severance.
IT Worker: guess I have no choice.

Situation-2:

Manager: you're fired. Train your H1B replacement before you go, or you get no severance.
Entire IT staff: you try to pull that bullshit, and we all walk out right this minute!
Manager: okay, you win.

Re:Time for IT workers to actually *do* something?

[Anonymous Coward]

Unionization is the only alternative to being wiped out. Unfortunately that realization will come too late for most. Welcome to the new American serfdom.

short-term vs long-term solution anyone?

[Anonymous Coward]

"is it fair for organizations backed by many of the same wealthy individuals to essentially promise the same jobs to U.S. kids and foreign H-1B workers?"

It's fair and square. H1-Bs is the short-term solution. Education reform is the long-term solution. Is this that much hard to understand?

It would take 5-6 years for any education reform initiative to yield tangible results. Schools can't start churning quality STEM grads overnight. But business can't wait that much. So it is only reasonable to also push for more H1-B visas. Otherwise Gates/Zuck would just have to move much of their business abroad altogether. How would you like that?

Re:short-term vs long-term solution anyone?

[ruir]

There is not much to understand they just want to create hordes of low-paid employees. The rest is just bullshit talk.

Re:short-term vs long-term solution anyone?

[oh_my_080980980]

And those 20,000 employee Microsoft fired are doing what now? Fuck off you ignorant troll.

Violate economics for geopolitical purposes? No.

[sethstorm]

Economics does not work that way.

A decrease in the labor supply (a supply curve shift to the left) will cause a shortage, with an increase in required wages to meet equilibrium. If what you and the guest workers said was correct about shortages, then wages would go up - not down.

An increase in the labor supply (a supply curve shift to the right) will cause a surplus, with a decrease in required wages to meet equilibrium. This is what really is happening, since there is an increase in the labor supply beyond what the equilibrium will support.

Geopolitical interference with developed nations like the United States, such that citizens are purposefully and systematically excluded from selection, is a valid explanation.

Flawed Sampling.

[sethstorm]

If you actually controlled for admissions criteria, which no current ranking system (especially PISA), the US would be much higher.

Then stop justifying it.

[sethstorm]

A potential hire is not better or more deserving of a job just by virtue of being an American.

Given that the American has more freedom than the typical guest worker (or their home country), that alone is enough justification.

Companies I have been at have lost good talent due to visa snafus and quota and time limits.

There was even better talent that was right in the US. Unfortunately, you weren't willing enough to work with US citizens in good faith.

So stop pretending that H1B visa holders are a threat to some supposed right you have to a job you do not otherwise qualify for.

Then stop with the unrealistic requirements that are designed solely to disqualify US citizens. The citizens are qualified, especially those that are asked to train guest worker replacement, you just have an anti-citizen bias. Your best bet would be to prepare to accept the idea that US citizens are qualified.

The guest worker program has never been about freedom; it has been about making an end-run around the Constitution's provisions prohibiting slavery and indentured servitude.

Higher degree of personal freedom versus others

[sethstorm]

Enough with the economic nationalism already.

Not going to happen as long as there's an effort to oppose US citizens. No sense in taking envious jabs out at the modern-day Roman Empire just because you live on the wrong side of it.

Why do kids born in America deserve higher wages and better jobs than immigrants?

The US has a higher degree of personal freedom not present in nearly all the offshoring destinations. In every sense of the word, businesses in this environment hate freedom.

Are the immigrants not human too?

Guest workers are not immigrants. Before you ask, mine came to live long, prosperous lives as citizens.

I would just respond that this same globalization has pulled far more humans out of poverty than any aid program ever has or will.

The vast body of evidence would point to a large wealth transfer that penalizes freedom.

I know you spent years learning your skills...

[Bonzoli]

Given that your over 30 and clearly want a living wage and a 40hour work week. We have decided to get an H1B visa worker in here to learn your job and move it to a communist country. There they work for rice and we only need to wrap nets around the building vs giving you a pay raise. Its what the stock holders want and of course I'll get a huge bonus for saving expenses for the company.

Hmm, Faced with this scenario, what smart American would want to be a Computer grad. Basically only the hardcore guys will want to suffer this, the rest will go on to a business degrees.

Re:Violate economics for geopolitical purposes? No

[NostalgiaForInfinity]

A decrease in the labor supply (a supply curve shift to the left) will cause a shortage, with an increase in required wages to meet equilibrium. If what you and the guest workers said was correct about shortages, then wages would go up - not down.

Yes, wages do go up when you restrict the supply of software developers, I never disputed that. What I'm pointing out is that it also means fewer software developers and fewer software companies.

What you have failed to explain is why that is good for anybody. Even if you buy into the protectionist b.s. that it is the job of the US government to cause prices on software to rise so that software developers can live in luxury, how does that benefit America as a whole? How is that any different from crooked Wall Street traders demanding special treatment and bailouts from the US government?

Zero-sum

[NewYork]

Unlike Capitalism, Globalization is Zero-sum WITHOUT http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B...

promise...jobs when...?

[Anonymous Coward]

first, who's promising a job to anyone? second, improving k-12 education in this country will hardly fill the current open positions, so a two-prong strategy makes sense.

So,

[Anonymous Coward]

I love a good corporate conspiracy as much as the next guy, but what this boils down to is: tech companies say they need to hire via H1B because there isn't enough local talent, then back up that claim by trying to generate more local talent.

They need employees today, and with child labor laws they can't exactly hire any of the kids they are trying to get into STEM now. Never mind that it takes time to educate them.