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A Tool For Analyzing H-1B Visa Applications Reveals Tech Salary Secrets

Posted by timothy on from the sifting-and-stacking dept.

Tekla Perry writes: The golden age of engineers is not over,' says a French software engineer who developed a tool for mining U.S. Department of Labor visa application data, but, he says, salaries appear to be leveling off. Indeed, salary inflation for software engineers and other technical professionals at Google and Facebook has slowed dramatically, according to his database, and Airbnb and Dropbox pay is down a little, though Netflix pay is through the roof. The data also shows that some large companies appear to be playing games with titles to deflate salaries, and Microsoft is finally offering technology professionals comparable salaries to Apple and Google. There's a lot more to be discovered in this interactive database, and researchers are getting ready to mine it.

74 of 124 comments (clear)

  1. Lots of highly paid folks by mystikkman · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Looks like there are a lot of highly skilled and highly paid people in the companies I looked... the opposite of the Slashdot narrative of indentured servants working on minimum wage.

    1. Re:Lots of highly paid folks by MacTO · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Of course there's a lot of people who are highly paid. Chances are that those people are highly skilled, or at least have highly specialized skills as well.

      Put another way: if you get a degree in computer science, or you are self-taught using common resources, you probably have a skill set that reflects that reflects the bare minimum that a company will accept and you have a skill set that the market is flooded with. Either way, you are unlikely to receive a good salary and you are probably going to face a lot of competition to get a job.

      On the other hand, those who specialize may enter disciplines with less demand but they are also entering disciplines with far less competition for jobs. If that discipline offers a good return for the investment for a business, those people will frequently garner better salaries. Likewise, if you have that computer science degree but consistently put in the effort to perform beyond expectations chances are that you'll have more opportunities and reap better rewards.

      I'm not going to say that it'll work for everyone. Motivation in the workplace and soft skills count too. Too many people hold themselves back due to psychological rather than intellectual reasons. On the other hand, if you prepare yourself to be a low paid cog you will almost certainly end up being a low paid cog.

    2. Re:Lots of highly paid folks by TheGratefulNet · · Score: 4, Informative

      no one ever said 'min wage' for h1b.

      but its minimum in RELATIVE terms because there's no reason to have to pay local salary rates if you don't have to.

      maybe its only 10k less or 5k less but if the workforce is over 50% indian (bay area: its more like 80% or more; wish I was kidding) and a huge percent of those are h1b's, then it adds up.

      there are pay windows or ranges and every h1b salary is on the low end of the range. because, "they can" and they do get away with it.

      the indentured servant is 100% true; once you are onboard, you are abused, overworked and treated like shit. they know that you are stuck there. they brought you in FOR that reason, mostly.

      --

      --
      "It is now safe to switch off your computer."
    3. Re:Lots of highly paid folks by kilfarsnar · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Looks like there are a lot of highly skilled and highly paid people in the companies I looked... the opposite of the Slashdot narrative of indentured servants working on minimum wage.

      And then there's this from TFA:

      In Négri’s opinion, that could be a trick to bring in a technically skilled worker at a lower cost: “If the title says software engineer, you pay a lot” to stay in compliance with the H-1B laws that require immigrants to be paid the prevailing wage, he says. “If the title says ‘consultant’, instead of $130,000 you might pay $60,000, the gap is that big.” He pointed to a “technology lead” for Infosys in Sunnyvale, Calif., listed in the database as having a salary of $87,000. “That’s not much for Silicon Valley,” Négri says.

      While it may not be minimum wage or indentured servitude, the point about wage suppression still has merit.

      --
      "What the American public doesn't know is what makes them the American public." -Ray Zalinsky (Tommy Boy)
    4. Re:Lots of highly paid folks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Maybe some folks should spend less time on Slashdot and more time improving their technical & non-technical skills. /looks in the mirror...

      Apparently the United States Department of Labor couldn't find any qualified US citizen / permanent resident data analyst to analyse their own data. So they hired "a French software engineer who developed a tool for mining U.S. Department of Labor visa application data." He probably received an honorary H1-B Visa as partof the renumeration package.

    5. Re:Lots of highly paid folks by penguinoid · · Score: 1

      the indentured servant is 100% true; once you are onboard, you are abused, overworked and treated like shit. they know that you are stuck there. they brought you in FOR that reason, mostly.

      Good thing they're not working on something where they can secretly insert a backdoor to get their vengeance later.

      --
      Don't waste your vote! Vote for whoever you want, unless you live in a swing state it won't matter anyways
    6. Re:Lots of highly paid folks by TheGratefulNet · · Score: 1

      you mean, like, "doing the spyful?"

      I bet it happens more than we want to admit.

      --

      --
      "It is now safe to switch off your computer."
    7. Re:Lots of highly paid folks by guru42101 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The other thing a lot of people overlook is people here working on Visitor B-1 visas, different than an H1B. Basically they're not employed directly by a US company, they're paid by some firm in India or wherever. The visa lasts usually 6 months and they must leave the country and reapply. At my employer we have an army of them contracted from Bristlecone, Wipro, IBM, and probably some others. Most of them are paid significantly less than a US employee, even after their rental car and hotel are covered. One I work with regularly let it slip how much they make in Rupees and it ended up being around 11 USD/h after conversion. From when I relo'd here I know the company has a bank of rooms at the nearby hotel at a significantly discounted rate (probably 30-40/n) and they carpool everywhere. A similar low experience US employee would probably get 25-30/h in this area.

    8. Re:Lots of highly paid folks by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      Put another way: if you get a degree in computer science, or you are self-taught using common resources, you probably have a skill set that reflects that reflects the bare minimum that a company will accept and you have a skill set that the market is flooded with.

      If you have a CS degree from a decent university, you're competing with entry-level grads who just barely took an eight-week-course in programming from some coding bootcamp.

      Somehow those guys manage to find jobs, and a CS degree is already more skilled than them.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    9. Re:Lots of highly paid folks by dj245 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Looks like there are a lot of highly skilled and highly paid people in the companies I looked... the opposite of the Slashdot narrative of indentured servants working on minimum wage.

      And then there's this from TFA:

      In Négri’s opinion, that could be a trick to bring in a technically skilled worker at a lower cost: “If the title says software engineer, you pay a lot” to stay in compliance with the H-1B laws that require immigrants to be paid the prevailing wage, he says. “If the title says ‘consultant’, instead of $130,000 you might pay $60,000, the gap is that big.” He pointed to a “technology lead” for Infosys in Sunnyvale, Calif., listed in the database as having a salary of $87,000. “That’s not much for Silicon Valley,” Négri says.

      While it may not be minimum wage or indentured servitude, the point about wage suppression still has merit.

      Companies do play games with the titles. Another way that wages are suppressed is by bringing in a foreign worker at the prevailing local rate. Take a look at the numbers for Accenture. The vast majority of their H1-B hires are just barely more than the prevailing rate. In most cases, within $100.

      I have also heard that it is very common for a company to claim on H1-B applications a higher salary than was actually paid to the employee.

      --
      Even those who arrange and design shrubberies are under considerable economic stress at this period in history.
    10. Re:Lots of highly paid folks by morphotomy · · Score: 1

      Yea I've worked with plenty of H1-B's. I was reporting to one actually until he became a fully-fledged citizen. The only H1-B I've seen that was incompetent was removed quickly.

    11. Re:Lots of highly paid folks by CohibaVancouver · · Score: 1, Insightful

      this highlights how well software engineers are compensated even compared to other types of engineers.

      Is "Engineer" a protected term in the USA?

      Here is Canada there is no such thing as a "software engineer."

      Chemical Engineer, Electrical Engineer, Mechanical Engineer, sure... But not "Software Engineer."

    12. Re:Lots of highly paid folks by Bonzoli · · Score: 1

      I expect we should discuss average and median.

    13. Re:Lots of highly paid folks by theonegri · · Score: 1

      You made me laugh. Thanks

    14. Re: Lots of highly paid folks by theonegri · · Score: 1

      I am socialist!

    15. Re:Lots of highly paid folks by Hodr · · Score: 1

      Certainly is a protected term. Just ask my custodial engineer. He had to get his NPSE cert before we would let him move out of his apprenticeship.

    16. Re:Lots of highly paid folks by terrab0t · · Score: 1

      The University of Waterloo has a Software Engineering program.

      I highly doubt all of the people currently holding the job title of Software Engineer here in Canada took an accredited engineering program though. The term Engineer is protected, but I don't know how well.

      As for the US, I'm guessing it's not a protected term. They make a complete mockery of it.

    17. Re:Lots of highly paid folks by l0n3s0m3phr34k · · Score: 1

      Ah, Accenture! At HP, they've been gutting the "Global Service Delivery Help Desk" using that company. All the LTE (long term employees, as opposed to FTE or full time employees) people are being forceably converted to contractors via Accenture. Even the "team leads" and "desk managers" are being given the boot. I'm guessing it's at least 100 people...many of them having worked for HP for 5+ years are loosing all their benefits and their basically loosing a few thousand a year...not to even mention what it's doing to retention and moral.

    18. Re:Lots of highly paid folks by Ryanrule · · Score: 1

      name names. whos in charge of it? whos the person at accenture? give all the info. phone numbers. addresses. where their children go to school.

    19. Re:Lots of highly paid folks by nobuddy · · Score: 1

      It is protected, but has been abused for decades and no one does a thing about it.

    20. Re:Lots of highly paid folks by Culture20 · · Score: 1

      As for the US, I'm guessing it's not a protected term. They make a complete mockery of it.

      It takes years of study and certification to become a Mockery Engineer, though.

    21. Re:Lots of highly paid folks by MorphOSX · · Score: 1

      Eh, "highly paid" is subjective. Tech Companies got caught in this vicious cycle of inflation because of where they chose to settle, and it's self-perpetuating. We demand these high paychecks for work, or see jobs that pay six figures for whatever, and only after we get the stars out of our eyes and the dollar signs out of our gut that we realize "shit, I'm being paid $250k and the cost of living means I'm keeping less take-home now than i was when i was making $55k at Podunk High." Have friends that took jobs in Silicon Valley because "Zomg six figures" who had to downsize their homes, downsize their families, and otherwise tighten their belts because they failed to do due diligence. I really hope that in tech, telecommuting becomes more of a thing. I'll gladly work for 60-70k/year in a job that would pay double if it means I can live somewhere with a low cost of living that I enjoy living and just work from there.

    22. Re:Lots of highly paid folks by Alan+Shutko · · Score: 1

      Take a look at the big body shops. Accenture: average salary $66k. Cognizant: $60k. In the tens of thousands of people they sponsor each year, a lot of them are neither highly skilled nor highly paid.

    23. Re:Lots of highly paid folks by swillden · · Score: 1

      Of course there's a lot of people who are highly paid. Chances are that those people are highly skilled, or at least have highly specialized skills as well.

      FWIW, at least at Google it isn't about specialization. Google SWEs are expected to be generalists, able to specialize as needed.

      In fact, it's generally recommended that SWEs change teams within the company every few years, and that they intentionally look for a change that requires them to learn new skills. The belief in the company is that this approach serves both engineers and teams, providing fresh perspectives and insights to both, and spreading knowledge across teams (by moving it) and within teams (by reallocating responsibilities).

      There are exceptions, of course. Some skills are rare enough that people stay within that field, even as they move between teams. On the other hand, even those exceptions have exceptions. I won't mention his name, but Google employs a famous cryptographer who recently decided that after many years of breaking the world's encryption systems he wanted to work on image compression. So he is. Another engineer I know has a PhD in computational mathematics, with a specialty in image processing. After a few years extracting building details (exterior shape, mostly) from merged aerial and street view photography, he now works on UI frameworks.

      The choice of when or if to move to another team, and which, is the engineer's. The destination team also has a say, but most teams are perpetually short-staffed. Unless the team in need of some deep skill (e.g. a PhD in computational mathematics with specialization in image processing), or unless the engineer hasn't been performing well in the previous role, they're unlikely to refuse. This is why apparently-odd moves aren't uncommon; people decide they'd like to do something different, so they do.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    24. Re:Lots of highly paid folks by Dahamma · · Score: 1

      Like many things, it depends on the state. Most (including California, the relevant state for most of the examples in this article) in fact do *not* have any requirements for "software engineer" or the use of "engineer" for basically non-engineering jobs (e.g. "sanitation engineer").

    25. Re: Lots of highly paid folks by Lotharus · · Score: 1

      ...you insensitive clod!!

      --
      http://undecidedgames.blogspot.com
  2. Cherry picking salary data by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

    These are all companies based in cities with astronomically high costs of living.

    1. Re:Cherry picking salary data by parkinglot777 · · Score: 1

      How come the parent post is rated as informative/interesting? It has NOTHING to do with the point of TFA but to arouse those who are anti H1B. Of course, TFA highlighted only high number. If you really dig into the data given as a link by TFA, you should at least see what TFA is directed to.

      TFA gave a link -- http://www.flcdatacenter.com/d... -- to FLC site which is the list of prevailing wage for all job codes related to areas in the US. The only missing link for comparison in TFA, for me, is the hiring salary from all companies. As a result, it looks to me that TFA assumes/uses those high salaries as a standard paid by most companies (look at the number of applicants given in TFA example) which is unlikely true.

      I understand that FLC listed the minimum salary based on job title that a company must pay (if you download and look in the readme.txt). The only problem is that it is just data in the book, but not the data in practice. Think of it as book keeping in accounting, a business owner may keep 2 books - one for submitting taxes and the other for real revenues/losses. Thus, the real salary may not reflect the one used in the application, and it is usually lower for those companies that know the work around.

    2. Re:Cherry picking salary data by avandesande · · Score: 1

      Yes and no... they are just confirming what those of those working in 'tier 2' companies have seen over the last 10 years.

      --
      love is just extroverted narcissism
    3. Re:Cherry picking salary data by Thelasko · · Score: 1

      These are all companies based in cities with astronomically high costs of living.

      Here is a link to the data Go compare salaries somewhere with a lower cost of living.

      --
      One of our competitors trademarked the term "hypothesis". From now on, we will call them "boneheaded ideas".
    4. Re:Cherry picking salary data by nobuddy · · Score: 1

      This disregards that those locations are high cost of living because of the long history of highly paid highly skilled tech workers living there.

  3. The title game by clifwlkr · · Score: 5, Insightful

    You can clearly see the way the companies are manipulating the system. Don't hire them as 'engineers', but as 'technology leads' then make up a low salary for them. No, the salary is not minimum wage as posted above, but it is half of what you would have to pay a standard software engineer, and you have their loyalty as it is a hassle to switch jobs. Yes, some companies appear to be above board, but is Google really only paying their software developers 123,000 in Silicon Valley? That seems low for that place. And yes, these salaries look big until you consider where they are. They are pulling salaries from the biggest companies in the most expensive places. Anyone looked into the data yet and see what the consulting sweat shops are paying/claiming? Again, tax the heck out of H1Bs and if there really aren't any engineers available in the US these companies will be happy to pay the penalty. Or better yet, untie H1Bs from a company, make it a 2 year visa, and let them go wherever they want. My guess is the companies will not be so hot on using H1B labor at that point.

    1. Re: The title game by GrantRobertson · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I like your last idea. It comes off as less punitive and more about "freedom."

    2. Re:The title game by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      If they offer a salary too low for you, then don't take the job.

      Funny how that (different AC) got modded down to -1 for not fitting the groupthink here. People seem think supply and demand should apply to other people, but not to them.

      Nobody owes you a job. If you don't like the salary being offered, then nobody is forcing you to take it. Move on. But software is a global industry. The work can generally be done anywhere,, by anyone. It isn't anyone else's responsibility to ensure that your business model is as profitable as you want it to be.

    3. Re:The title game by mystikkman · · Score: 2

      > but is Google really only paying their software developers 123,000 in Silicon Valley? That seems low for that place

      Those numbers don't include stock options, which are a big part of compensation. The SV companies that don't give stock options have high salaries posted. The amount of ignorance in these comments is amazing.

    4. Re:The title game by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      123k is a low salary, but you also make 200k more a year in stock options. So typically you are getting ~330k a year in total compensation.

    5. Re:The title game by Thelasko · · Score: 1

      Absolutely, this doesn't just apply to software engineers in Silicon Valley. Looking through the data, I see the same thing for all kinds of engineers in the Midwest. There are "Senior Engineer Design" people making $93k ($73k prevailing), while a "Technical Specialist Advanced Systems Design" makes $80k ($66k prevailing). These are arguably the same position, but the "Engineer" title makes more money.

      --
      One of our competitors trademarked the term "hypothesis". From now on, we will call them "boneheaded ideas".
    6. Re:The title game by fluffernutter · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Nobody owes you a job.. but it is the large companies claiming they can't find anyone and thus hiring H1Bs. If their claim is truly justified, then technical people are in short supply and the salary would be increasing. The fact that salary is leveling off means that they must be able to find enough people and thus should not be hiring H1Bs. This is the way the market works, there is no other way. If the market is working fairly for everyone then one of the two alternatives must be the case.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    7. Re:The title game by clifwlkr · · Score: 1

      Simple then, let them do it anywhere else then and try and compete. Don't allow the companies here to bring people in from overseas to work here at deflated wages and with strong ties to a single company at the workers disadvantage. Let them do it at some other spot then, and try to compete with others working onshore in the US. Big difference between that and the H1B program. Like it or not, countries all over the world have immigration laws to avoid flooding their countries with people. Ever try to work in Mexico as a US citizen, or own some property? It's not just the USA that does this. Again, if there is a shortage then allow an increase in Visas for the US as a temporary FREE worker competing evenly on every level. Then it is a fair game.

    8. Re:The title game by orlanz · · Score: 1

      I always liked this idea. The H1B is tied to the employee, not the company's position. Have the person be similarly powered as a native. And after 2 years, the employee can take it else where. The person would need to continue renewing the H1B. Renewal can't be declined (unless user is a criminal or terrorist, etc) but can't go more than 6 months without a job, else it will expire. If the company fires the person in less than 2 years, the H1B visa expires.

      This way it benefits everyone equally. The company takes a risk in getting an H1B so will only hire true vetted requirements, and that person is incentivized to do their best. The person isn't stuck with a horrible employer and can seek higher salaries but still can't lazy off. The natives will need to compete, but atleast it will be fair. The country can manage the number of H1s in the system and know that they are actively contributing to society without concentrating those H1s in a small group of companies. And the system downsizes naturally in a recession.

      In this plan, I think taxes should be the same, but the benefits such as social security or 401s etc shouldn't be tallied. This will encourage the person to either seek better options or reinvest in their home country or become part of ours.

    9. Re:The title game by MooseTick · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "123k is a low salary"

      According to (http://www.whatsmypercent.com/), 123k puts you down in the 97% range. If it weren't for H1B peeps, maybe you'd be making 150k. While 27k is a lot, someone who makes more than 97% of the nation can't complain too much.

      --
      Ninjas don't carry tic tacs
    10. Re:The title game by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      The problem with this model is that companies are banking on desperation. The H1Bs are possible because there are other governments that treat their people poorly and therefore they are willing to come here for less. Is it fair for our government to allow us to be subjected to market forces that are only possible if the alternative is abject slavery and starvation?

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    11. Re:The title game by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      The problem with this model is that companies are banking on desperation. The H1Bs are possible because there are other governments that treat their people poorly and therefore they are willing to come here for less. Is it fair for our government to allow us to be subjected to market forces that are only possible if the alternative is abject slavery and starvation?

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    12. Re:The title game by l0n3s0m3phr34k · · Score: 2

      you have no comprehension of how "cost of living" varies from city to city? Just because it's 97% "nationwide"...it costs far more to live in California as it does in the midwest.

    13. Re:The title game by kylef · · Score: 2

      Funny how that (different AC) got modded down to -1 for not fitting the groupthink here. People seem think supply and demand should apply to other people, but not to them.

      Not so. Most of us are just asking for the same supply and demand rules to apply to software jobs as to any other job in the US, rather than being targeted disproportionately by H1B visa policy. If demand really does exceed supply as the software barons claim when lobbying politicians, then prices for labor should be increasing, which is how the labor supply works in every other sector of the economy. But if prices are stagnant or even declining, then claims of a shortage ring hollow.

      Nobody owes you a job. If you don't like the salary being offered, then nobody is forcing you to take it. Move on. But software is a global industry. The work can generally be done anywhere,, by anyone. It isn't anyone else's responsibility to ensure that your business model is as profitable as you want it to be.

      Of course no one owes anyone a job. But we're not talking about "global" software supply/demand and salaries here: we're talking very specifically about the situation inside the US, because we're evaluating a question of local public policy there only (i.e., the H1B visa quotas). Gaming the system via immigration policy to keep wages artificially low in a few specific categories should be revolting to any capitalist who claims to respect the market. If immigration limits are to be enforced, they should be enforced across the board, without special consideration to special interests.

    14. Re:The title game by niittyniemi · · Score: 1

      Absolutely, this doesn't just apply to software engineers in Silicon Valley. Looking through the data, I see the same thing for all kinds of engineers in the Midwest. There are "Senior Engineer Design" people making $93k ($73k prevailing), while a "Technical Specialist Advanced Systems Design" makes $80k ($66k prevailing). These are arguably the same position, but the "Engineer" title makes more money.

      It is time that the title "Engineer" was stopped being abused by the IT
      industry.

      The fact is that any goon, whatever his/her qualifications (or lack thereof)
      can apply for a job as a "Software Engineer" and can be interviewed and assessed
      for the post by other "Software Engineers". Hence, the hideous state of a lot
      of codebases.

      Compare with a Mechanical Engineer. In the UK at least, first you have to do
      your degree, then you have to get a job and be trained/handheld by a
      Chartered Engineer for several years before you sit your professional exams.
      If you pass those exams you then have the right to become a member of the
      Institution of Mechanical Engineers, IMechE, and only then can you be let
      loose on the jobsmarket and legally describe yourself as an "Engineer".

      The same process goes for electrical, civil, chemical engineers. They all have
      their own institutes and professional examinations.

      Would you like your local bridge to be designed by a civil engineer who wasn't
      Chartered? I think not. A Chartered Engineer is threatened with expulsion from
      his institute and the end of his career as an engineer if he fouls up.

      Yet the IT industry will happily take someone fresh out of university and let
      them loose coding eg some banking application. When the crackers inevitably
      break in, he/she might get sacked but they'll just move on continuing to
      describe themselves as a "Software Engineer".

      It's time that software developers had a professional institute that forces
      them to do their time under a time-served, qualified engineer and then sit
      professional examinations before they can call themselves "Engineer".

      Once this happens, it will put an end to your H1B problem and the driving down
      of salaries and hopefully improve the quality of software.

      --
      The Machine stops.
    15. Re:The title game by Thelasko · · Score: 1

      Actually, there are professional engineering licenses in many US states. They are only really only valuable in the civil engineering field. As an ME, I sat for the "Fundamentals of Engineering" (FE) exam. Passing that exam allowed me to register as an "engineer in training". However, I've found that certification carries little to no value in my field, and so I never went on to get my PE.

      I suspect most H1-B candidates went to school in the US under student visas. They likely have taken the FE exam as well, so I doubt it would have much impact.

      --
      One of our competitors trademarked the term "hypothesis". From now on, we will call them "boneheaded ideas".
    16. Re:The title game by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      Your argument would have merit if there actually were any devices that were made ground up domestically. But there isn't a big sign at the mobile device store indicating the foreign devices and the domestic devices priced a reasonable $50 higher. The consumer's job is to work and consume, nothing more. Don't burden people in the individual consumer role with changing any of this. The company's job is to take as much money as they can from the consumer. The government's job is to make the country comfortable for as many people as possible. The stats don't indicate that the government has been going its job.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    17. Re:The title game by Pulzar · · Score: 1

      Or better yet, untie H1Bs from a company, make it a 2 year visa, and let them go wherever they want. My guess is the companies will not be so hot on using H1B labor at that point.

      A lot of people (including, obviously, you), don't understand that that's how H1B works already:

      H1B Visa Transfer FAQ

      --
      Never underestimate the bandwidth of a 747 filled with CD-ROMs.
    18. Re:The title game by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      I think you have proven the ACs point. We don't live in Russia, life is a certain way here. Has the government decided they don't care about our current quality of life and are they willing to make us more like Banglore? Perhaps, but then they should at least be up front about it and allow the public to decide. I think more and more are looking for assurances that life will remain safe and sound for generations to come.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    19. Re:The title game by aralin · · Score: 1

      For example in San Ramon, CA, where I live, 123k household income puts you in the 50% range. It is actually exactly the median income for the city in 2012. Now that is 40 min commute to Google HQ. If you want to live closer, it is even worse... FYI.

      --
      If programs would be read like poetry, most programmers would be Vogons.
    20. Re:The title game by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      The ideology is strong in this one. Hint: according to the strictest interpretations of the Constitution, the Federal government has much more responsibilities and authority than that, and the Constitution places very few restrictions on state governments. (They have to be democratic, respect rights from the Bill of Rights, and leave interstate and international stuff to the Feds.)

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    21. Re:The title game by Bengie · · Score: 1

      Just because they hired someone at a lower rate doesn't mean they're not still trying to find a more qualified person at a higher rate. Good programmers are still in short supply, but sometimes you need to make do. The ratio of good vs not-so-good programmers is so bad that the not-so-good set the average.

      It takes us years to find good programmers. Yes, we could increase the advertised salary, but that just increases the noise from the number of baddies with credentials who want easy money. We find we're better off starting with a decent wage, finding a person we like, then letting their salary quickly increase via raises.

    22. Re:The title game by kylef · · Score: 1

      Do you own an IPhone? Why is that product made in China rather than the US? Oh right! The wages for factory workers in the US were to high so they off-shored all the manufacturing jobs to a cheaper labor force.

      Well welcome to the same treatment.

      It's not the "same treatment" at all. In the one case (outsourcing), unskilled jobs are moving overseas not due to government interference but due to global economic pressure. Leaving a country is a basic right, as long as someone else is willing to let you in.

      In the other case (in-sourcing), government is actively bringing specific types of skilled people into the country, bypassing normal immigration law and targeting very specific industries thanks to lobbyists.

      You aren't screaming to have all the manufacturing jobs brought back to give Americans those jobs again as that would raise the cost of that new phone you buy every year or the new TV or appliances you get so cheaply.

      Are you serious? "Have them brought back"? Like this is some kind of two-bit dictatorship? People (and the jobs they create) are free to emigrate to any country that will let them in. Good luck trying to write a law which forces job creators to remain in the US. That is truly a dark path.

      By contrast, immigration policy is supposed to be "fair". But programs like H1B are anything but.

      Shut up and deal with it the way the rest of the country has had to. Crybaby whiners.

      The "rest of the country" certainly hasn't faced competition from H1B visa workers, more than 95% of which target the software and IT industry.

      But regardless, your sentiment is clear. You are more interested in taking others down a notch because of envy, rather than being genuinely interested in public policy fairness.

    23. Re:The title game by fluffernutter · · Score: 1

      Well then Americans are mostly all screwed. Better make plans to move out by next generation, because the 1% boat has sailed. We'll be line China soon. Watch it, it's coming. Already Uber is reminding me of a modern spin on a Rickshaw service.

      --
      Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
    24. Re:The title game by godrik · · Score: 1

      Or better yet, untie H1Bs from a company, make it a 2 year visa, and let them go wherever they want.

      I am on H1B right now and probably getting a green card soon. Tying the visa to a particular job is in my opinion the worst thing about H1B. From the employee perspective, it is pretty bad. They have no leverage for negociation at all. For the company, it is pretty good, they can keep on paying substandard salary. For the country, it is pretty bad, since it creates small monopolistic job markets.

      Let them compete on the national job market and I think you will solve the problem with tech emigration and the lack of stem workers in the US.

  4. Not at Pied Piper by StikyPad · · Score: 2

    They pay the new guys double what the founders are getting.

    --
    https://www.eff.org/https-everywhere
    1. Re:Not at Pied Piper by Shortguy881 · · Score: 1

      And all the 4k Pr0n you can compress

      --
      Brilliance without wisdom, power without conscience. Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants.
    2. Re:Not at Pied Piper by StikyPad · · Score: 1

      38% when I'm watching it.

      --
      https://www.eff.org/https-everywhere
  5. Where the H-1B wage levels come from by NCoast · · Score: 5, Informative

    I know something about H-1B wages. Follow this federal prevailing wage link (http://www.flcdatacenter.com/OesWizardStart.aspx) and you'll see that they are geographically-specific, and every H-1B wage comes in 4 levels, from entry-level to highly skilled. H-1B employers have to pay at least as much as shown in this federal prevailing wage database and possibly more, if they ordinarily pay people with the same duties in the same location higher than the minimums shown at the above link. BTW, that website can be useful when negotiating your own salary.

    1. Re:Where the H-1B wage levels come from by ranton · · Score: 1

      Those are some insanely low wages. It put the highest level of wages for Software Developer: Applications in the northwest Chicago suburbs at $91,624. While that is well above entry level wages, it is nowhere near what a senior level developer in that area makes. Add another $30k to get into the ballpark.

      --
      -- All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. -- Edmund Burke
  6. business models by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    Like it or not, programming can be done anywhere. That puts you into competition with the whole world, whether you want to be or not. Very few software jobs can't be shipped to China or India if that makes more economic sense.

    You aren't special, and it isn't anyone else's job to ensure that your business model succeeds. That's usually the slashdot groupthink when it applies to OTHER industries like truckers being put out of jobs by automation. "If their business model isn't working, find a new one" - repeated endlessly on here. Well, guess what, you can't have it both ways. If your job can be done cheaper or automated away, it will be. If your business model isn't working, find a new one.

    1. Re:business models by Greystripe · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If that were true then companies would not use H1B's in the first place. Since they are using H1B's then it means that the companies care where the programmer is located.

    2. Re:business models by GargamelSpaceman · · Score: 1

      However making programmers cheap increases the tendency for those who pay for coding to want linear increase in human resources to result in linear output. Well designed software does far better than linear output for input effort.

      The only kind of coding that conforms to this is spaghetti coding. That is the crappiest code possible. The crappier the code base the smaller the bit of code each developer can work on. The cheaper the coders the crapper the code base will become. This is 'ok' because the deficiency can be mitigated by hiring more coders.

      Imagine running a factory full of broken machinery and as many workers as it would have without the automation each babysitting their own rusted bolt because people are cheaper than new bolts.

      --
      ...
    3. Re:business models by kylef · · Score: 1

      If that were true then companies would not use H1B's in the first place. Since they are using H1B's then it means that the companies care where the programmer is located.

      Precisely. Very few successful and reasonably large projects are staffed by ad-hoc collections of international programmers located around the world. While it can be done, the efficiency and throughput of such projects is usually quite low. Communication overhead is usually the crippling factor there.

      Offshoring an entire project is much costlier to do, and frequently management is unwilling to cede control and simultaneously unwilling to relocate. Furthermore, the same pressures in the new local market that made you leave the former local market start to creep in. Bangalore salaries for competent programmers have increased about six-fold in the last 12 years or so. The cost savings from your expensive move might suddenly evaporate.

      So, companies would MUCH prefer increasing staffing levels at their current locations, especially if they can lobby politicians to make it happen without driving up salaries!

  7. Re:TFA is misleading regarding IBM's drop by gnupun · · Score: 1

    But it says "status: withdrawn", so was the salary for withdrawn cases used in the statistics?

    2014
    H-1B Senior Software Engineer $7,278,870,000 Year $63,294 Philadelphia, PA Unknown 1 Withdrawn 15-1131

    http://data.jobsintech.io/comp...

  8. H1B Solution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    There's a simple solution to the H1B problem. Add an additional 50% employement tax on H1B's. That will grossly level the playing field, by increasing the costs of an H1B, but still making it accessible to those companies that can't find US talent.

  9. Re:TFA is misleading regarding IBM's drop by tomhath · · Score: 1

    That would skew the lot a whole lot more than a couple hundred K.

  10. Re:TFA is misleading regarding IBM's drop by PPH · · Score: 1

    but I don't think IBM would pay a SW Engineer 7.2 Billion

    Maybe the guy who wrote the payroll program.

    --
    Have gnu, will travel.
  11. Overall the numbers look relatively competitive... by DomNF15 · · Score: 2

    The averages reported for Microsoft, Google, and Apple ($121k, $124k, and $123k, respectively) seem to be more or less in line with what folks at my Westchester County, NY based company are making (arguably as expensive a place to live as those famous West Coast places). I do agree with the assessment that the H1B folks are treated like indentured servants, the management knows they can't easily move to another company and dangles the Greencard like an almost unobtainable carrot, even when the Greencard is company sponsored. This also affects things like workload and yearly salary increases adversely, I've seen it happen firsthand.

  12. everything by phorm · · Score: 1

    Pretty much anything can be done globally, including management, but we don't see that so much do we?

    Beyond that, there are some things that you don't intelligently outsource, such as things dealing with breakthrough technologies, military secrets, medical/financial systems, etc. Why, because foreign countries don't necessarily follow the same laws and domestic, and even if they do ... good luck putting the genie back in the bottle when they've leaked out and the worked is out-of-country. At least domestically if you catch somebody spying etc you can charge them and/or lock them up.

  13. Re:Nitflix's F*'d HR means they have to pay more by ark1 · · Score: 1

    Netflix numbers don't tell it all. The big difference is justified by the fact that the pay includes bonuses/stocks and all their jobs are in the Bay Area where cost of living is way above avg. A Goog/MS Senior Engineer making 150-160K + bonus + stock will end up with a similar total compensation package.

  14. Re:Overall the numbers look relatively competitive by DomNF15 · · Score: 1

    I've seen domestic workers sleeping at their desks, what's your point? Any group you chose will have outliers (bell curve and all that). Are you suggesting there's systemic slacking off among the H1B crowd?

  15. Re:Overall the numbers look relatively competitive by DomNF15 · · Score: 1

    Closer to $1.2k/year, but that's also true of the domestic workers. I think you have to negotiate a salary well when you start a job, otherwise you're at the company's mercy once you join in terms of salary increase. Over the course of a few years, you either have to demonstrate capacity to be promoted, or at least function at a level well above your peers to get decent increases, in my experience.