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Australia's Prime Minister Doesn't Get Why Kids Should Learn To Code
New submitter Gob Gob writes: The Prime Minister of Australia has come out and ridiculed an opposition policy aimed at teaching kids to code. In response to the leader of the Labor Party's question about whether he would commit to supporting Labor's push to have coding taught in every primary school in Australia, the Prime Minister said: "He said that he wants primary school kids to be taught coding so they can get the jobs of the future. Does he want to send them all out to work at the age of 11? Is that what he wants to do? Seriously?"
doesn't get a few things, like digging 60M tonnes of coal from central Queensland might be a) bad for the Great Barrier Reef (because of the port infrastructure needed) and b) bad for CO2 levels in the atmosphere, and C) bad for Australia because we will pay for infrastructure for these projects to go ahead. He is typical of conservative politics in Australia - I hope his great grand-children forgive him.
Yeah, because as soon as you're taught something you have to go out and get a job based on it. In another time this would have been like querying whether kids should be taught to read and write in primary school...
...this is just more evidence.
No surprise he would say something like that.
... but then, kids who are interested in making their own computer programs should be allowed to do so
And about politicians ...
Most of them only knows how to make a lot of hot air, so I am not surprised at all at that outburst from that PM of the land from down-under
Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
He's the PM who wanted to scrap the National Broadband Network and thought more roads was what Australia needed. He obviously doesn't get information technology at all.
Those who do not learn from commit history are doomed to regress it.
I get that everyone wants to teach kids to do what they like because they think they are the best version of human and obviously it is best for humanity if your life template is copied as much as possible, but I don't get why it is so obvious to everyone that getting everyone to code is so beneficial.
There is a LOT to life, and not everyone needs to be doing the same things, or is even capable or willing to do those things. Everyone has different strengths and limitations. Even if you go on about how learning to code teaches a lot of associated skills, those same skills can be learned many other ways.
I dunno, it just feels like all this "TEACH ALL KIDZ TO CODE, LOL" going around is a bunch of mutual masturbation and self-fellatio.
And rightly so! I've never heard anyone insist we should teach kids how to do basic plumbing or install a new light switch. Seeding tomatoes perhaps?
Teach kida to code? We need more socially inept morons on the planet or something?
There are more people running IE 5 than are running GIMP on Windows. Why aren't you trolling about that?
Because if every kid can code then, like everybody can flip a burger, you have home-grown AND cheap 21st-century labor available. Supply and demand. Eco101.
STOP THE PRESSES! Talk about nothing else! It is IMPOSSIBLE to talk and think about more than ONE problem at a time! Always and only focus on the most important issue ever!
Like adware.
-=This sig has nothing to do with my comment. Move along now=-
A pitty such a subject has made its way to /. Beside laughing at him or joking, what is the whole point with this "news"? Give me back my real /.
Achille Talon
Hop!
that thousands of little script kiddies are already toiling away in sweat shops?
I mostly agree with him.
I (and I'm sure MANY of us!) didn't learn any programming skills formally until college (and some not even there). I learned basic skills on my own because I thought it was fun, learned more formally in college, and really only made the decision to go into software engineering soon before graduation.
I just think kids are better off learning more general areas - math, physics, chemistry, writing/literature, social sciences, economics, and BASIC (pun intended) computer science/programming. Leave the specialization to a time where they know what that even means.
Honestly, what has happened to the conservative movement? Between the US republicans, British conservative party, and Tony Abbott it is like it has been hijacked by idiots. Even worse, the proles voting these idiots into power are generally the ones most likely to suffer under their policies.
The older I get the more I conclude that the world is stuffed full of breathtakingly dumb people faking it.
Learning to code is like learning a second language. It teaches you to think in the mindspace of the computer, so to speak... that is, the kids are learning about logic, arithmetic, flow control, and other such concepts. Once you get the basics down, learning other languages becomes much easier. Even if those kids don't become programmers, the familiarity they get with computers and the higher lessons learned should still be worthwhile.
Those of us who program for a living nowadays probably started programming on our own when we were younger. My first lessons were self-taught, thanks to an Apple II I had access to, as well as a book that taught AppleBASIC (and one designed for kids, of all things - I wish I could find that book somewhere). Later in college, I decided I wanted to become a programmer, and picked up Pascal, C, and C++ quite easily, thanks to my earlier lessons in BASIC.
As long as the curriculum is solid, this seems like a positive thing. I wonder if it's difficult to find qualified instructors, though?
Irony: Agile development has too much intertia to be abandoned now.
I'm a longtime Slashdot reader and I'm tired of DiceDot posting all these political articles! If what I read doesn't confirm my biases, I'd personally prefer not to read it thanks.
OBAMAPHONSE!
Because all children will not become developers. It's that simple.
We need to start seeing programming languages as a modern replacement of the semantics of mathematics, rather than something separate. Mathematics is just programming expressed in the form of symbols. Take calculus for example, the equations describe dynamic systems and the symbols used are type of functions or methods. Programming is thus calculus and a program is a formal math proof. Many people will have issues with Math, but not demonstrate the same issues when it comes to code. Children can be offered a choice between math and programming, but still learn the same set of skills. I personally have issues with understanding and working with the traditional presentation of math equations, but this vanishes when I express those equations in code to such an extent that I'd have the same capability as someone with a Masters or PhD in mathematics. Some people are just wired differently and we need to understand that a one-size-fits-all approach to learning does not gel with how the brain works.
Tony Abbot doesn't understand anything that isn't making him and his mates a lot of dosh RIGHT NOW!
It turns out under his own government's policy kids are already being taught to code, and he wasn't aware of this, so naturally went o the attack. Which seems to be the main talent of this guy.
If it acquires resources on instantiation like a duck, then its a shared_ptr<Duck>
It's good to introduce children things they're likely to encounter.
In my childhood I was taught (simple) woodworking, music (playing flute), theater (acting), sewing, swimming, etc.
Not solely for perspective jobs, just for getting an idea what the world turns
I'd like to say "Why don't you submit a story?", but...
Slashdot's problem is that it's owned by the same company that owns Sourceforge.
Slashdot social media options: AIM, ICQ, Yahoo, Jabber and Mobile Text. Why no MySpace?
He is an idiot. Total numbskull. He's a great leader since everything he says can be guaranteed to be stupid. You know where you are with Abbott and so does the rest of the world. No worries Tony. You can be titular head of whatever you want to be, just ignore all the stuff going around you and everything will be ok.
Don't be apathetic. Procrastinate!
I am a coder, a passionate one, have kids, will teach them, but I do not understand why all kids should learn to code.
He is right. I don't get it as well.
Do we want the kids to be perfecty prepared to build 1990's technology? Remember, you are reading this on a WEB PAGE. Web pages were not even invented until the mid-1990's.
I sympathize with those who want kids to be prepared. But we used to call computer technology, and what we should today call cell phone technology, is changing so fast that almost anything you learned in school will be obsolete before you can get a job using it.
For example, in college I learned FORTRAN and CDC 6400 assembler language. My first computer job I worked in RPG (Report Program Generator) and IBM 360 assembler language. I had the mental focus, and the learned disrespect for computers, but the actual coding learned was history. Ten years later we gave up on punched cards. What will today's programmer do when a speaking AI robot creates custom-made apps?
I have been programming for forty-five years. Teaching kids how to program is like learning to read Latin - historically interesting, but in the market place completely useless.
There is no point in teaching coding skills to anyone who doesn't care about it. I've run into far too many people in this industry who only did it because somebody thought it would be lucrative.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
The summary misses the main point of the story. Tony Abbott ridiculed the concept of teaching children to program in response to a question by the opposition leader when his own government of which he is the leader already has a policy in place to fund teaching children to program (although not to make it compulsory).
All I want is a secure system where it's easy to do anything I want. Is that too much to ask ~~ Randall Munroe
If I recall recent and not so recent posts, Australian ministers don't get a lot of things.
I'm waiting for Slashdot to force a downloader on us that installs crapware like all of sourceforge.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
And yet another incredibly biased news post... that says a lot of the poster. I agree with that prime minister. Not everyone should learn to code. We really don't need more mediocre developers.
Sorry - but writing code is no great secret: all you need to be is smart. Reading and basic math skills will go much further to achieving the goal of preparing kids for their future cube bound existence.
I will also point out that there are way to many programmers with no expertise outside of programming. One trick ponies.
I am very small, utmostly microscopic.
Why are be so pressing on kids to learn coding? If a kid wants to learn coding, they'll learn coding, if they don't want to, they won't. If we start forcing kids to learn computer programming it will be no better then when we force kids to take Shakespeare, Drama, History or Art. Don't make kids learn anything they aren't interested in, because when you do that, they'll never give it a real shot.
Neither do I. Sounds like a waste of time - why no push to teach them welding or whatever?
Kids should learn to code because it's fun and because it's a useful skill to have in today's technologically dominated world. Not to "get a job".
That kind of thinking pollutes education. If schools' primarily concern is to produce worker bees, why not cut out the middle man and send kids to work right away? That way they could gain hands-on experience while learning by doing. It would be good for the economy! Education is overrated anyway. You only need to have marketable skills that are immediately useful in your future job.
Teach kids how to read, how to reason, how to make music, how to speak a second language. Expose them to various fields of science such as astronomy and oceanography. Coding is a tool they can pick up later.
You can also teach pupils Classical Greek, or advanced logic, or finite geometry or a number of other esoterics. The important thing is stuff that can become arbitrarily complex in a systematic way and opens a world of thinking.
Programming may be a bit more directly applicable these days for most. But the main problem, that of engaging the brain fully, can be approached in a number of ways and our current culture of learning tends to dumb down every topic to a degree where it becomes useless for developing a serious skill set.
Just like almost any physical sport can prepare someone for becoming a sportsperson in adult stage. So the schools teach the equivalent of walking, just not too fast. And leave the stairs for senior high.
in fact there is no such a rush.
machines will do their jobs, australia is not a star in computing. if do not want to be just will follow the algorithms programmed by others.
internet has such things like "if something works then should be global", its a kind of facism but its not, just an advice from the world.
but if one can decide if an entire country need to learn or not need to learn then should be responsible for predicting the future of those under that responsible,
cause australia has own monetary system, its not a little bakery but will need to buy as many software future demands.
if one decide to live in a farm growing own food, whats is the problem with that?
instead of doind personal choices, as a politician should put that in vote and work for people to follow votes what as a leader, he wants for the country.
but those politics misunderstand what they want for what all want.
money system is a unavoidable piece of shit.
I have to say I've started thinking about computers differently. It feels like it's made learning about new things easier, especially different programming laungages or whatever complex system you happen to come across.
But I think if you hate coding in the first place, or just aren't into it or won't even go into IT, you're wasting your time and energy.
Teaching coding to elementary/primary school children may not be helpful. A good portion of them may not yet grasp the perquisites necessary to understand logic for conditionals. If there are more crucial learning deficits like reading or arithmetic, then it's better to focus on them first.
Another subject that will be 100% useless for 99% of students.
Remember when you had to know the periodic table by heart. Needed it for test and never thought about it again for the next 20 years.
There is more and more information to learn. Maybe we should rethink how schools work in general. Look for children with talents in certain areas and base the curriculum on that.
Of course this violates bullshit rule number 1 which states that "everybody is the same" ....
Everyone who buys Wild Hunt will receive 16 specially prepared DLCs absolutely for free, regardless of platform.
Keep the kids lock up in a cellar naked and throw them out when there 18 oops that is what we do now? Never mind.
And then can avoid it if it doesn't appeal...
About 30% of Australian high school age kids are in work training or just straight on work, rather than full time students, and are exiting with not much more than middle school level language and maths skills in a US context. So that PM Abbott isn't keen on coding classes isn't a huge surprise.
Luke, help me take this mask off
science isn't really his thing
"Abbott was born in London, England, to an Australian mother and English father, and emigrated to Sydney with his parents in 1960. Prior to entering parliament, he studied for a Bachelor of Economics and a Bachelor of Laws at the University of Sydney, and then a Bachelor of Arts in philosophy, politics and economics as a Rhodes Scholar at The Queen's College, Oxford. He was later conferred with a Master of Arts."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Abbott
I agree that understanding computers is important, but there is much more to the "computing landscape" that programming. Remember that to a hammer (i.e., programmer), everything looks like a nail (i.e., a program). Machine learning is the new paradigm, and there is no programming. IBM's "True North" chip is a neural network chip - not a programmable CPU. In 20 years (maybe sooner) no human will be programming. So we should not be telling kids that being a programmer is a "career".
We have and one was voted up to red. But somehow it was allowed to fall off the first page of the firehose without being posted. Others were hidden away.
Everyone knows this is why we send kids to school.
So they can get jobs while they are in school.
Obv.
I'm unconvinced by all of these initiatives to teach programming to kids. And I say this as the father of a teen who is already a pretty darned good programmer - precisely because I see how unusual it is.
Coding is fun stuff, but really, what's important here is the ability to create models (abstraction) and the ability to do structured problem solving. If you teach these skills with coding, you introduce a lot of overhead in the form of language syntax, compilation problems, libraries, IDEs, and other stuff. For kids who like messing with computers, that's fine, but for everyone else, it just adds a bunch of irrelevant sources of frustration.
You would be better off omitting the overhead and concentrating on the modelling and the problem solving. Make them enjoyable, by including plenty of riddles, logic puzzles and the like. For most kids, that will be a lot more fun than fighting with syntax errors.
Enjoy life! This is not a dress rehearsal.
Sigh... the Honor..... wait.... Prime Minister Tony Abbott is seemingly so used to bickering and working against anything offered by his political "counterparts" in government that he likely goes into an auto just say no mode and is at the same time possibly showing off a subconscious fear that a tech savy population is going to shred an upcoming techno tyrrany to pieces once the kids develop enough critical thinking abilities rendering the government unable to control every thought and behaviour of the population... let true education begin that enables creation rather than just consumption of centralized controlled technology and software. A clear FAIL for the PM
MS, ALS, Aphasia ? http://globability.org - Me http://einarpetersen.com
Probably for different reasons, but I agree. There is a lot of hype about coding as a way to develop analytical and logical skills - I have met quite a few coders that were severely lacking in such skills. A simple example that we are all too familiar with: a large percentage of coders out there seem to be unable to tell when to use "it's" or "its". If they can't get their brains around something as simple as that....
No, not unless he's had it slipped under the table to him recently.
When the government he was in some years ago lost power he had to take a pay cut which he could not afford so he took a mortgage out on his house to support his lifestyle.
Also he worked as journalist and never a lawyer (or economist) despite his education along those lines when he was one of those "perpetual undergraduate student" political types that infest Universities for many years at a time stirring up trouble.
You are probably thinking of Malcolm Turnbull who owns, or used to own, a large chunk of an ISP, practiced as a lawyer and who would understand why kids should know at least a little bit about coding.
that once people is exposed to basic logic, reasoning and critical thinking as a child... It becomes very hard for imbeciles to rule them once adults.
This is the real issue this clown fears.
No one with a working brain understands why it important that kids write software... because it is NOT!
Kids don't need to be taught to code - not because they're too young to learn (I was coding since I was maybe 10 years old?) but because there's already a glut of coders in the workforce. The shortage was a now well-understood hoax made by a few US tech companies who employ coders.
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
Like programming, I try to address on issue at a time instead of writing one giant spaghetti function that does it all.
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
I feel kids should at least be familiar with coding. Learning how computers execute instructions and do what they do is akin to learning about how oxygen combines with fuel in combustion in a science class, or how cells divide in a biology class.
They don't have to know extreme detail, just have a basic idea of how the world works. And in today's world that includes computers.
The language doesn't even matter. Even old-school BASIC is a good language to use for the class, because it's easy to understand and the results are instant. Just enter some lines and type RUN.
It's not like we have to each the kids all about complex APIs, GUI programming, networking and so on. Just teach them enough to get rid of the feeling that the computer is a "magic box" that they have no idea how it works.
Coding and the profession "programmer" is a special task, which needs be aware of computing and thinking in a very logical way. Building furniture, like a chair or a table requires also to become a "cabinetmaker". But school is about learning general knowledge, as a foundation for life and further learning in an apprenticeship or studies. Like teaching childern to handle a saw, hammer and pliers, children should learn to unterstand computers in general and how to handle (personal) data, maybe also touch-typing.
Touch typing is anyway a good example, it is much more needed than coding. As an example in germany touch-typing is teached on Hauptschule (prepares for a apprenticeship in industry or craft), on Realschule (prepares for a apprenticeship in an office, industry or craft) but not on the Gymnasium (prepares for a apprenticeship and studying at university).
So if your kid mastered the "ABI" on a Gymnasium, it learned:
Goethe, Schiller, Kafka *ouch* and so on: Yes
Tax, Social Insurance, Bank Transfers: No
Well. I learned about Kafka also on Realschule...but I learned for life.
Instead of teaching kids to code lets teach them formal logic, data organization, process management, and systems analysis. All those skills are useful in daily life yet learning how to code is a complete waste of time.
When I was young there were no computers. I learned about internal combustion engines. I learned about electricity and electronics. I learned to make things of wood and metal. I enjoyed erector and chemistry sets. All of these things benefit me 60 years later. None of them were taught in my school.
Much later I learned to program in 6 languages (none of which are used today), again without any school help. I created databases for business, educational software, and taught and wrote articles about the industry.
Few of my contemporaries cared for such a broad understanding of practical things, but almost all had access to this knowledge. None of it required government requirements or school. Today there are vastly more opportunities for young people to learn whatever might interest them and school is not required.
Reading and arithmetic are essential to all children. Arithmetic can include logic, though I've never seen it done in public schools. Children need preparation for life- money management, social norms, and the fading understanding of geography, history, economics, other cultures etc. They need some political understanding, not just approved government propaganda but the reality of government & corporate interaction. They need enough chemistry and biology to prepare them for family health management as adults. Where does programming fit in to these requirements?
There is a current trend to confuse education with job training. This needs to stop. Education prepares children to be responsible citizens of the world. Job training can wait until junior college.
...omphaloskepsis often...
You learned because you wanted to learn. You found computers to be fascinating and wanted to know more about them. They were rare creatures, and harder to use and knowing more about them helped you get more out of them.
Computers and computer-devices are almost ubiquitous these days. They hold no fascination for many kids. They don't want to know how to code to understand the computer better or use it better.
Knowing how to code won't fix a glitch-filled rushed-out-the-doors game that was overhyped.
Knowing how to code won't make it easier to use a shitty UI.
Knowing how to code won't make it harder to get viruses.
Those are the issues most people have to deal with concerning their computers. Some of those will drive kids and adults to study computers, how they work and then work their way into a specialized field with them. But you and many others think coding should be a skill everyone has, rather than making it easier for anyone to code. We keep trying to get there but when its not fool-proof, we let it slide by the wayside again.
Scripting, OOP, and other things designed to make it easier and easier to program computers. Keep going with that until with only a little training someone can create the basics of a complex program by voice input. Then we can look back at Star Trek 4 and go "Yeah, I know just what ya mean Scotty. How quaint indeed."
what was I saying ? I complete moron.
I'm a veterinarian. As a kid i tried coding my own game on an atari. I think coding teaches kids about using math creatively, and is immesurably valuable in this regard. Even if you won't become a programmer, coding opens your mind in some way.
Kidz doo knot kneed to no howe to spel or ad upp untill thay leev skool. Just teech themm the bassix att th aage of ateteen wen thay wont two gett ah jobb.
return 0; }
But, basic computer usage should be taught as part of the curriculum. Maybe even doing fairly complex Excel/Spreadsheet calculations. At least, here in the U.S., if a student shows aptitude for any given subject, they are often offered "Advanced Courses" in similar subjects. Not everyone takes Calculus, but those who are seen to have the aptitude tend to get promoted to those subjects. I could see if a kid "masters" Excel in one semester, offering them programming courses would make sense to me, but requiring? I don't know about that.
I don't see why kids need to learn to code, either.
Do they need to learn shorthand for court dictation?
Do they need to learn to build a car?
Do they need to learn to perform an operation?
Do they need to learn to build a satellite?
Of fucking course not. Focus on educating them on the basics of life and they can apply these to individual interests and then pursue interests in higher education.
As a developer myself, I don't think it's a good idea to make kids learn how to code.. Make them interested and let them do it at home if they want to.. The kids are already burdened with so many more classes these days, why even add more if they can't f-ing read/write or calculate correctly..
So I too see no reason why they should have to study coding at school..
I dont understand why there is such a focus on making coding a part of core education. It would seem to me if you are going to add stuff the primary education it should be something guaranteed to be useful to the most people. Why not make first aid and life saving a core subject instead. It seems more useful than coding would be and there would actually be a benefit to having everyone know how to do first aid.
...as over 50% of people in one Australian state, Tasmania, are.
Teaching young kids to code is a great idea that I have already implemented, but it cannot work while in some regions kids are failing to pick up even basic maths. http://www.abc.net.au/radionat...
All this partisan political mania is hiding bigger issues that need to be addressed first.
Kids shouldn't be taught to read either, or by the age of 11 they could read the stupid things Abbott says. They shouldn't be taught arithmetic, or by the age of 11 they could add up the number of times he says stupid things. Let's just march boldly backwards into the future.
You need to work on your reactions in such situations instead of an instant desire to shoot the messenger in such an insulting way.
It's not about which issue is more important.
The real problem is that Slashdot appears to be censoring bad press about its parent company.
This was the most discussed issue on many tech web sites yesterday, multiple stories were submitted to the firehose, several were voted to red, and yet none was accepted onto the front page.
The irony is that it's NOT just opposition policy, HIS government is funding teaching coding, and he didn't know. http://thenewdaily.com.au/news/2015/05/29/tony-abbott-mocks-his-party-in-coding-blunder/
I'm glad someone here sees the outrage. Got a lot of AC's telling me I'm whining.
I don't know, I've been on this website for a long long time, packaging and slinging adware is BAD NEWS folks.
It's currently on the firehose. Vote it up!
You think Slashdot packaging adware on a GPL application they don't own or haven't contributed to isn't probably the most important story Slashdot readers would like to know about?
Anonymous Coward #49797227, I've been around here a long time. You must be new and enjoy your iPhone's clean interface and easy access to Plants Vs Zombies, but some of us here give a damn about software freedom.
I used book-learning to teach myself programming before I was ten. This had hugely negative impacts for my University degree over a decade later. Starting early will also expose 'natural talent' and make it easier to give them guidance and support (in the example that the child may never otherwise have access to computing facilities that would allow them to learn this, although that is becoming far less common).
Leela: "Is all the work done by children?" Alien: "No, not the whipping."