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Making an AR-15 In the Wired San Francisco Office
An anonymous reader writes: Wired's writer Andy Greenberg writes about his experience fabricating an AR-15 lower receiver with the Ghost Gunner CNC mill. (That's the same device that was demoed in a Slashdot video earlier this year.) Greenberg points out that CNC millng isn't new, but reports nonetheless: "Aside from a single brief hardware hiccup, it worked remarkably well. In fact, the Ghost Gunner worked so well that it may signal a new era in the gun control debate, one where the barrier to legally building an untraceable, durable, and deadly semiautomatic rifle has reached an unprecedented low point in cost and skill."
Illegal or not?
one where the barrier to legally building an untraceable, durable, and deadly semiautomatic rifle has reached an unprecedented low point in cost and skill.
GOOD!!
Fabricating a lower receiver on a mill is hardly "Making an AR-15" as the headline states.
Our ridiculous gun control laws become harder to enforce.
I fail to see the problem here...
~The grand unifying truth is that the State's power to change us now exceeds our power to change the State.
It sure sounds like one.
The whole discussion about making your own guns, sort of reminds me of the day I realized how easy it was to make beer. So easy that any 14 year old can walk into any random supermarket and buy everything they need to make a couple gallons of beer for less than it costs to actually buy the beer (as it should be!).
So all these prohibitions against selling alcohol to people under 21 are all pretty pointless, even kids without friends older than 21 can get their hands on unlimited supplies of the stuff with just a little thought and effort.
So the latest hopla about making guns is sort of a resurgence of the zip gun culture. Only the results are probably more accurate on the whole.
Why the hoplophobia?
Who cares? It's just a gun. It's not like this guy embezzled billions or even millions. This guy didn't snoop your personal information. Nothing of note happened so why is making a gun a big deal?
You can make a damn effective single-shot shotgun with plumbing parts from the hardware store for about $12.
Making the world a more dangerous place for the rest of us.
Well done.
This is so much more meaningful than 3d-printed parts. His CNC milled part could actually be quite reliable, and if it's machined to proper tolerance and using the proper material it should compare favorably with a manufacturer's part. The 3d-printed weapons, OTOH... you're lucky if you don't lose some fingers.
Home brewing was illegal from prohibition until Carter legalized it which is what started the U.S. micro brewing revolution.
I love Jesus, except for his foreign policy.
Kids want to get drunk now, not in a month.
"Lack of speed can be overcome. In the worst case by patience." --Znork
In America, it is incredibly easy to buy a gun - even if, for example, your ex-wife has a restraining order against you getting within 1,000 feet of her.
Given how easy it is to buy a gun, it is incredibly silly to prohibit making guns.
excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
"...the barrier to legally building an untraceable, durable, and deadly semiautomatic rifle has reached an unprecedented low point in cost and skill."
Of course it's a low point. It's always a low point. Does he ever foresee it taking more skill to make ANYTHING 5 years from now than it does now? When's the last time that technology digressed?
Yeah that's it.... /sarcasm Not like liberals who want to put guns only in the hands of criminals and leave the rest of us defenseless.
Then you can bring the AR-15 to an airport for safety, just like a loving father.
I don't have an "irrational aversion to weapons", I do have a very rational aversion to irrational and aggressive people who need to fire off a few to ward off feelings of inferiority, like this sad sack.
We now have confirmation that a simple method of tool making employed for the last 200 years actually works. Will wonders never cease!!!! A-fucking-mazing!
Fascism: An authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization. See also: NAZI's
No. Kids want to get drunk now _and_ in a month. I had a still and a fake ID at 16. Couldn't pass for 21 unless it was real dark. But back then we could get beer with an 18 ID.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
So all these prohibitions against selling alcohol to people under 21 are all pretty pointless, even kids without friends older than 21 can get their hands on unlimited supplies of the stuff with just a little thought and effort.
I don't particularly mind kids who have forethought and can put in effort, get access to beer. If they're that smart, they're probably smart enough to not overdo it. No, it's the kids that don't think much about anything, and dislike effort, that should be kept away from drugs - including alcohol.
And it's similar with guns. Whoever thinks that making guns cheap and easy to fabricate without skills is a good idea, is nuts. I mean, if that's a good idea why not go beyond that, and give everyone who is unemployed and didn't finish high school, a bottle of Sarin gas in case they feel threatened by someone. Or a flamethrower. What could possibly go wrong?
Therefore, by the (faulty) logic you're using, you're just a cow with a keyboard - osu-neko (2604)
Dismissing the completely nonsensical cosmetic rules of various states: The DoD defines an "assault weapon" as one that has a "selective fire" mode, i.e. fully automatic operation where it continuously fires as long as you pull the trigger until the magazine is empty. The select fire, fullauto, "assault" version is known as the M16. The NON-"assault", semiauto, manual fire version is known as the AR-15.
Regardless of your stance on gun control, at least get the facts straight. The AR-15 is NOT an "assault weapon". Period.
See, I get that the gun advocates want to prove a point here. I do. But the government is not ever going to say "Oh, you know what, you're right. That's silly. Go ahead and make all the guns you want". I realize that this is the libertarian fantasy, but it's just that: Libertarians masturbating.
Instead, what's going to happen is the government is going to start regulating CNC mills (or something equally absurd) in order to control the problem. Yes, that's a stupid thing to do. What, you don't think the government is capable of doing cutting off its nose to spite its face? I think if anyone should realize that the government is capable of doing stupid shit, it's Libertarians. It's all they ever talk about.
So thanks, guys. As someone who likes gcode and cutting metal, you're now going to ruin it for the rest of us just to prove your fucking point.
People who say "sheeple" have about as much sophistication as an AOL user, and in fact are probably actually AOL users.
Printing or milling a lower and saying you made a gun is like building a computer case out of plywood filling it with off the shelf parts. Sure the case is essential but its a paper wait with the really hard to make parts like a motherboard or cpu. If I was at the range and someone offered to let me shoot their milled lower ar-15 I would try it. If they offered to let me shoot their ar-15 with a home made barrel I wold be worried about the safety.
My inner gun lover also says: hey he can't by a high capacity mag for his ghost gun so were all safe right.... right?
If we legalize the making of alcohol, tobacco and firearms, then what are we going to do with all the money we spend on the Bureau of Alchol, Tobacco and Firearms??? Add even more letters to their TLA to justify its existence?
This organization needs to be ended and its responsibilities folded into the Department of Commerce and the FBI.
the growth in cynicism and rebellion has not been without cause
That's not very rational regardless of your protests. The man in the video came across much calmer and more rational and less aggressive than you. Why are you projecting your shortcomings on that fine veteran who is making a living after serving in the armed forces?
Or is you fear rational if its you with the weapon? Maybe you should seek some medical care?
So you have an aversion to a person enjoying firearms? Have you ever fired one? It's kinda enjoyable. The "sad sack" you refer to seems completely rational to me. He's just shooting a gun. You're the one being silly.
Ghost Gunner...may signal a new era in the gun control debate
Presumably he means a "new era" of debate in which gun-rights advocates are not resoundingly winning that debate. This week's news is that the Texas legislature approved campus carry and both houses of the Maine legislature approved constitutional carry. And those immediately followed the Federal Courts rollback of carry restrictions in DC. And last year Illinois legalized concealed carry.
I don't see how Andy Greenburg using a "Ghost Gunner" is going to reverse that trend.
Ceci n'est pas une signature.
3D printers and the programs that drive them must be regulated. Otherwise, consider the dangers to society. Anyone would be able to circumvent laws, such as Arizona's legal limit of two dildos per household.
I'll see your senator, and I'll raise you two judges.
Its a felony to buy a gun with a restraining order; its right there on the form 4473. People who say its incredibly easy to buy a gun usually aren't talking about doing it legally. In California there is a 10day wait even if you're a woman trying to get a gun to protect yourself from the ex you had to get a restraining order against.
In America, it is incredibly easy to buy a gun - even if, for example, your ex-wife has a restraining order against you getting within 1,000 feet of her.
The problem with that is anyone can get a restraining order against anyone else simply by filling out a form and signing a statement of fear for personal safety against a specific person. Attaching any other restrictions to such a bureaucratic routine, like limiting purchases of legal firearms, is a very bad thing.
Just stay away from Gun Free Zones and you'll be fine.
When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
which doesn't make it more difficult, just means you get in more trouble if caught. To a lot of teenagers (and nominal adults) this is not a significant deterrent.
Whoever thinks that making guns cheap and easy to fabricate without skills is a good idea, is nuts.
It doesn't matter if it's a good idea or a bad idea. It's the world we live in now.
It was probably not a good idea to let murderous dictators and their regimes know about the equation E=MC^2. We would definitely be better off if crazy people lacked the information to make nuclear weapons. But that's not even a question worth considering, because that information is already out there. We live in a world where the knowledge of how to make a nuclear weapon can be found on wikipedia.
There is no good way to keep bad people from owning cars, cell phones, computers, kitchen knives, baseball bats, etc. Now guns are in this category as well. It is just a fact that in the 21st century, making a precise replica of a simple physical object is no longer hard nor expensive. Arguing whether it should be is pointless.
It's not fear. It's part of the socialists plan to allow an uprising of the proletariat to effect political change. They want what you have and will rise up to take it or just destroy it when the left wing decides its time for the change. They can instruct the police to look the other way. But there's not much they can do about the Roof Koreans (and others) who are still capable of defending themselves.
Have gnu, will travel.
I'd like to point out that a lower receiver is not a rifle, and it's not even the most stressed part of the rifle during use, it's just the part that the BATF has chosen must be serialized.
You still have to buy a barrel somewhere, and a bolt and a bunch of other furniture pieces and a bunch of small parts and have some technical knowledge to put it all together. Just managing to fabricate a lower receiver, which is basically just a hollow lump of metal with no moving parts, is more of a legal milestone than a technical one. What makes it interesting is not that it's the most important part of the gun (I'd argue that the bolt/chamber/barrel are) but that it's the part that the government decided must be tracked in some fashion. Which makes the lower receiver, from a regulation standpoint, "the gun", even though it's not.
Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
For some rifles, such as the AR-15, the serialized part is the lower receiver.
For other rifles, such as the SCAR 16 and SCAR17S, the serialized part is the upper receiver.
On a Ruger Mark series pistol, the barrel is the serialized part.
I don't think the author realized that this depends on the weapon.
www.facebook.com/DareDefendOurRights
www.fairtax.org
Seriously, just because you can fab something, doesn't mean it's a good idea.
QC that.
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
Tools and objects that can be used to make 3D printers and the programs that drive THEM must be regulated!
Ban the monkeys all the way down!
www.facebook.com/DareDefendOurRights
www.fairtax.org
So all these prohibitions against selling alcohol to people under 21 are all pretty pointless, even kids without friends older than 21 can get their hands on unlimited supplies of the stuff with just a little thought and effort.
~50 million lazy teenagers would suggest otherwise. Are there even enough teenage homebrewers to make a statistic? I bet the number doing it because it's their only way to get drunk is around 6. Just because a rule doesn't make something foolproofishly impossible doesn't make it worthless, otherwise why have any rules at all?
Only the results are probably more accurate on the whole.
Zip guns typically aren't accurate.
Legally Build your own rifle:
https://ghostgunner.net/
https://thepiratebay.vg/torrent/8598235/DefDist_DEFCAD_MEGA_PACK_v4.4_%28Raiden%29_%5BZIPPED%5D
https://defdist.org/
AR-15s make great home defense weapons along with 12 gauge shotguns.
what are we going to do with all the money we spend on the Bureau of Alchol, Tobacco and Firearms???
Dunno but I can tell you it ain't gonna be spent on a director* or enforcement. If the duties of the ATF were folded into the FBI there might actually be sufficient budget to regulate firearms. That's a non-starter in the US.
(*OK after 7 years without one, congress finally appointed a director)
I know; I'm just using the SJW's rhetorical attacks against themselves.
Unlike cars, there is no public record of when they're resold, at least not in most states.
And it's not the receiver that would be matched anyway; it's the barrel.. and guess what? It's perfectly legal to replace the barrel on a gun, and then it won't match either. Regardless, that match can't be made unless the gun has been obtained, and you can't magically match a bullet to a registered gun and then track down the registered owner.
Guns are not traceable. They can possibly be matched, if recovered, but not excluded on anything other than calibur. It's more like blood type evidence than fingerprint.
https://www.eff.org/https-everywhere
We brewed 'Schwanz sauger' wine. (From the Rhinelands of Hatch hall.)
It was as much to piss of the RAs as anything else. There was no rule against it.
Not like we didn't have a keg or two somewhere in the dorm every weekend.
John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
Exactly, which is why moonshine still exists (and I'm not talking about that "History" Channel nonsense)
In America, it is incredibly easy to buy a gun - even if, for example, your ex-wife has a restraining order against you getting within 1,000 feet of her.
(bold added by me)
Since when? 18 USC 922(g) makes it unlawful, and the background check they run when you buy one picks that up.
A cheap home machine like that would truly be a miracle! ...and something to worry about.
Well, we want you to die. But that would preferably happen in a car wreck, trapped, and burned alive.
I know you are being sarcastic...
But in countries with strict gun control, some might consider this...
That said; I think it's sufficient to just declare it illegal to print fire arms... Well, funded criminalswill always have fire arms, gun control is mostly about increasing the effort required to get a gun (and to keep one, as you must keep it secret). It prevents idiots from getting their hands on guns, 3d printing a gun certainly takes a lot of effort.
Not entirely true. A judge needs to approve this. I tried getting a restraining order against someone that was sending me harrassing e-mails but since they didn't have a history of violence against me or act on the threat it was not approved.
I love Jesus, except for his foreign policy.
The whole discussion about making your own guns, sort of reminds me of the day I realized how easy it was to make beer. So easy that any 14 year old can walk into any random supermarket and buy everything they need to make a couple gallons of beer for less than it costs to actually buy the beer (as it should be!).
Except 14 rear olds generally live in their parent's house, and brewing takes a long enough time to risk discovery by said parents.
If you parents don't care if you drink it's usually easier to steal from their stash than either brewing or buying your own.
Since when is Very Bad Thing stopped legislation? It is the law of the land right now. Question 11.h on the 4473
Question 11.h. Definition of Restraining Order: Under 18 U.S.C. 922, firearms may not be sold to or received by persons subject to a court order that: (A) was issued after a hearing which the person received actual notice of and had an opportunity to participate in; (B) restrains such person from harassing, stalking, or threatening an intimate partner or child of such intimate part ner or person, or engaging in other conduct that would place an intimate partner in reasonable fear of bodily injury to the partner or child; and (C)(i) includes a f inding that such person represents a credible threat to the physical safety of such intimate partner or child; or (ii) by its terms explicitly prohibits the use, attempted use, or threatened use of physical force against such intimate partner or child that would reasonably be expected to cause bodily injury. An “intimate partner” of a person is: the spouse or former spouse of the person, the p arent of a child of the person, or an individual who cohabit ates or cohabit ating with the person"
IANAL
FTFY
I art more snarky, and terse than thou. I art Slashdot!
It is a mill. It builds things according to instructions it understands. So what?
3D printers a danger to civilization? At one time the same sorts of worrywarts said that the printing press was a danger to civilization. Many today say the internet is a danger to civilization. Please do not let these nattering nabobs win. We want and need the ability to create objects from designs to be free and open. Trying to limit it is like trying to limit a compiler to only compile programs you like. It is counter-progress nonsense.
That I can print or mill a gun, hatchet, tomahawk or whatever does not in the least mean I am going to be murdering people. The stats on liberalized gun ownership show that each time violent crime drops.
Anyone had a look at one of these? How good is it as a CNC mill in general?
You mean water heaters, 6 ft of copper tube, and a few pounds of stainless nuts?
I love Jesus, except for his foreign policy.
You can apparently make a 9mm submachine gun (albeit with unrifled barrel, so effective range is under 50m) with plumbing parts from the hardware store.
(We know that it's a real thing because the author of this book was imprisoned for actually making one after publishing it.)
It might seem easy. It might seem to make sense. But no matter what the thing is, guns, drugs, food, etc. you will never succeed in tackling a problem by dealing with the supply of something. Given sufficient demand, there will always be a supply or a near-equivalent alternative. History refuses to tell the story differently. Supply side restrictions always fail.
The problem itself must be tackled, not the tools, not the side-effects. You have to address demand. If someone wants to cause harm, they will, by whatever means are available to them be it a gun, a kitchen knife, or a number 2 pencil. Desperate people perform desperate deeds. Malfunctioning minds conceive malformed intentions. Start here first, not last, if ever.
Two of my imaginary friends reproduced once
(and I'm not talking about that "History" Channel nonsense)
LOL... Yea those guys are about as real as vinyl leather shoes. The guys running the stills AND the guy trying to arrest them...
It may or may not be 'easy', depending on your willingness to work with armed felons, but it's certainly not *LEGAL* to do so.
Except 14 rear olds generally live in their parent's house, and brewing takes a long enough time to risk discovery by said parents.
You would think the same would apply to inmates (whom live in a jail cell surrounded by cops). However, the prison wine keeps getting made alongside weapons. San Quentin even has a museum for some of the contraband they've found...
Show me on the 1st Amendment bobblehead where the moderator touched you...
because they hate us and want us to die. That is why they're flooding the streets with guns. 3D printers make it even faster and more effective. They are more effecting at making us constantly die. That is what this is about.
Yippeee! That means I can get the anti tank weapon I've always lusted for. Those SUVs don't stand a chance!
Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
Whoever thinks that making guns cheap and easy to fabricate without skills is a good idea, is nuts.
We live in a world where the knowledge of how to make a nuclear weapon can be found on wikipedia.
Let me put your mind at a bit more ease... MOST of what you may need is on Wikipedia, including the theory behind how such a device might work, however, actually getting past the technical issues necessary to actually build a working device, including production of the fuel and building a working way to trigger the device are NOT straight forward or easy to do and really easy to get wrong. But the real problem for making a nuclear weapon is acquiring the fuel. It is tightly controlled and manufacturing fuel takes large amounts of equipment.
It's not impossible, but it's going to be pretty hard to do it w/o getting the attention of some powerful countries who are going to do their best to stop you..
"File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
We need less guns, not more, and this 3D printer isn't helping the situation.
That stuff is for distilling, not brewing.
Handy if you want to turn your 3-10% alcohol mash into 90% (180 proof) or so hooch, but not really necessary if you just want to get buzzed.
And just to prove they could do it, some buddies in college distilled out about a liter of close-as-damn to 100% pure ethanol (as verified by IR spectrometry, etc) in the organic chem lab. It doesn't stay 100%, since it sucks H20 out of the air prodigiously, but beats hell out of vodka. Just keep away from open flame!
Look up STEN gun sometime. The Brits developed it as a SMG that could be easily manufactured just about anywhere (including your garage), Just In Case the Germans invaded the UK. It was later used by the British Army in WW2, and not really all that different from what you're describing here.
"I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
Having a restraining order, felony conviction, conviction of a crime would could get you a sentence of more than 1 year, and having a misdemeanor conviction of domestic violence all make you a prohibited buyer and the NCIC check *should* catch it.
https://www.atf.gov/file/61446...
That is the 4473 form, which the buyer fills out when purchasing from a licensed dealer.
Face to face private transactions are legal where I am (and in many states) but as a personal thing if a buyer doesn't have a CCW permit then I pay the $20 to transfer it to them thru a local FFL.
Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos
Do we really need people operating machine gun factories from their desks? I doubt it.
I am aware of how hard it is to actually make the fuel undetected, my point was that the information is freely available.
It's not like you can ban aluminum. You used to be able to ban metal of a particular shape, but now people have the tools and information to make metal whatever shape they want.
It's way easier to ban a material like uranium or plutonium than it is to ban shapes. At least currently.
Yeah, I'm aware of the Sten. Mechanically it's probably very similar (it's about as simple as an open bolt design can get). But the beauty of what Luty did is going through a set of premade components readily available in hardware stores (mostly pipes) to come up with a list that requires no milling at all, and no other application of machining tools. The barrel of that thing, for example, is literally just a piece of pipe that just happens to be of the right diameter; so is the receiver. Consequently, not only you can make it in your garage, you don't need any tools for it other than a metal saw and a file. This is one step beyond even the Sten, which still requires some machining and welding to produce.
BAN ALL THE CNCs! Seriously though, which Democrat congressperson will be first to propose it? Let's take bets...
Yep. If you want to hit 100% you need to use dececants.
I love Jesus, except for his foreign policy.
Yep, the anhydrous stuff absorbs moisture incredibly fast, to the point that it can easily be back to the azeotrope by the time you go to use it, if it's not stored over a dessicant, if you leave too much headspace, if you leave the cap off for an hour or two, etc..
Real pain in the ass to work with, unless you have everything set up ahead of time.
The second amendment guarantees it.
The "debate" only exists in the media.
When I was in high school, small town...4,000 population, middle of the country. If you saw a pickup truck in the school parking lot, including teachers, 99% of the time, there would be 1 or two guns in a gun rack, on the rear window. One being a shotgun the other being a rifle. Also, if it was hot outside, the windows would be down, if it was raining, the doors wouldn't be locked. Guys ran around with a skoal can in the hip pocket & a buck knife on their belt. Not one incident of "gun related crimes" EVER happened in schools. You had a beef with someone, you took it across the street AFTER school, duked it out for a while, declared someone the winner, someone the loser. Few days later you'd be hanging out in town having a beer with the same guy. Try that now, they'd toss you in jail and throw away the key. So, that begs the question...WHAT has changed? Perhaps single parent families, everyone living in a sub division with privacy fences, who have no idea who their neighbors are, schools/federal government removing any mention of God from every day life, the increase of violent video games, children growing up with a lack of respect for their elders, or anyone else. SOMETHING has changed since the days I attended high school in the 70's, and NOT for the better.
I think "thought and effort" is the key point. We're living in the age of microwaves, ADD, and the Internet, man.
With that said, I make most of my own alcohol. Get some high tolerance yeast off Amazon and you can brew a 20% (40 proof) wash very easily. I live in a state with relatively cheap alcohol but the cheapest vodka I can get (that doesn't make me blind) is about $14 for 1.75 liters (0.7 liters of pure alcohol) but I can brew the same amount for about $2 with distilled water, sugar, and a good yeast. It's a 100% legal no-brainer but it does require effort.
And yeah, I wish I had thought of this when I was a burgeoning 15-year-old alcoholic that had to jump through all sorts of hoops to get fuel (the Internet didn't exist back then).
Also, can we talk about how much worse alcohol is in every way compared to weed? Seriously, why is MJ still illegal? I don't get it. Alcohol is terrible.
I should buy a half dozen crates of Mosins and have a free gun zone.
"So long and thanks for all the fish."
"Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt, tum soli proscripti catapultas habebunt."
I should add that the metal powder laser sintered 3D printers by their nature leave the object full of tiny little holes. That's fine for some things but as cannon casters found out centuries ago it sucks for barrels - instead of a gun you get a gun shaped fragmentation grenade.
There's some stuff that is already made of metal powder in applications where those little holes are unacceptable, and that's dealt with by a second step - heat it up and squash all the little holes out (forging). Getting a home budget device to do both would be a bit of a challenge.
Haven't taken over yet but are already in control of the police? Pretty big flaw in your conspiracy theory isn't it? Why would someone bother to take over when they already run the place?
Interesting problem....
I'm very pro gun. I'm going to be buying two rifles (AR-15 and AR-10) and two pistols (two Colt 1911s, a .45 and a .22) and will be training for competitive shooting.... I do believe that the second amendment means what it says (The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed) but we made a really boneheaded move in not requiring background checks, and not implementing waiting periods across the board. When I'm ready to buy the firearms, I won't be opposed to a waiting period. I don't see either a waiting period or background check as any sort of infringement.
Also I think the whole "assault rifle" ban was ridiculous; why is it that if I put a semi-auto lower receiver into a plain-looking rifle it was okay, but if I put it into an AR/AK-style rifle that "looks scary" it is suddenly something which needed to be banned?
The interesting issue this presents is this: should we implement background checks for 3D printers capable of sintering metal, or CNC milling machines? Of course for a machinist who already has access to such a machine, it's simple to replicate a pre-original-ban AR lower receiver which is very easily converted to fully automatic (which should not have been banned since that IS an infringement but that's beside the point at the moment).
The bottom line is this: we need to not coddle psychopaths and sociopaths, we need to not ignore warning signs, but to commit and treat them. Don't let people with serious illnesses suffer and let anger or violent tendencies fester. Treat the actual problem - and if it takes implementing universal health care so they can actually get access to proper mental health treatment, so be it. Health care SHOULD be a universal human right - and yes it is an entitlement - EVERYONE should be entitled to full health care.
Why punish the tool, or act like the tool is the problem? The real problem is society telling everyone FUCK YOU WE DON'T WANT SOCIALIZED MEDICINE then suddenly act surprised when a teenager with serious psychological problems steals his mom's firearms and shoots up a school, or when a mentally ill adult decides to shoot up a workplace. Why are we so shocked when we keep rejecting universal health care, and keep rejecting treating the mentally ill?
At one point, there were shooting leagues in schools, where students brought their firearms in. What school shootings were there? The only shootings at that point were ones carried out by the government, not by The People. The mentally ill were locked away (which IMHO is nearly as bad as not treating them at all which is what we do now - we pretend they don't deserve "free" health care) to protect society. My generation? No school shootings, and yet guys often had rifles in gun racks out in the parking lot. No problems with it.... but now we're scared of our own shadows, and a kindergartener drawing a picture of a gun or playing "cops and robbers" and pointing fingers at each other and saying "bang" results in expulsion.
We have our priorities all wrong, we misplace blame on the tools rather than the evil and/or mentally ill people who carry out the evil acts, and we act all shocked when the people we denied health care end up hurting others.
Sooo do we start instituting background checks for ANYTHING which can be used as a weapon or manufacture a weapon (CNC milling machines, die grinders, billet metal, pressure cookers, knives, plate glass, tubing, anything which is combustible, etc.) or do we fucking wake up and provide free treatment to the mentally ill and start locking them up if necessary?
I say we start treating the mentally ill, and if they are a threat so society keep them locked up and provide competent treatment until they are mentally stable, and stop blaming inanimate objects for society's failings.
The Christian Right is Neither (Christian nor right). See: Matthew 23, Matthew 25, Ezekiel 16:48-50
Making a pistol would be more controversial
Are rifle optics regulated in US? I mean I can understand that a rifle with optics is a serious piece of firearm so to speak, but I also think that making a pistol would be more controversial, because of how wearing a handgun would be alot more convenient, because of how a handgun is usually a conceiled weapon
Well big news, guns aren't exactly the tallest peak of the manufacturing world. If you have any kind of CNC machine (not including the ones too flimsy for metal working) guns are super easy. If you have a lot of patience it's entirery possible to manufacture one "manually".
Just to clarify, making a gun is legal in the US, for anyone legally able to possess one.
Provided that the gun in question is not automatic. Automatic means either that specially trained ATF technicians are able to coax it into firing more than once with a single pull of the trigger, or that it uses an open breech design.
Open breech means that the gun rests with the bolt back. Pulling the trigger releases the bolt to move forward into battery, where the gun fires. Special parts are needed to cause the gun to stop after a single shot, and the easy removal of those parts makes the gun automatic, even if those parts are present.
By contrast, in a closed breech gun, the trigger releases a firing pin or striker, starting the cycle. Special parts are needed to prevent the gun from firing again until the bolt returns to battery. Removal of those parts turns it into a nightmare machine, unable to reliably contain the pressure of the burning propellant.
But a closed breech allows a disconnect in the action, requiring that the trigger release for each cycle. Without those parts, or with worn parts, the gun is an automatic. With those parts, it is semi-automatic, or self-loading. Or, a lever allows the user to select between the two, making a select-fire gun.
To summarize:
Open breech = automatic (by decree)
Closed breech, disconnector = semi-automatic
Closed breech, no disconnector, or selectable disconnect = automatic.
Private ownership of automatics requires special licensing of the owner, and a special tax stamp paid on the gun. Those stamps have not been issued since 1986, but owner licenses are available.
An ordinary person can also get licensed to manufacture automatics, but because the ATF won't issue a stamp for their product, they can't make an automatic for personal use. They can only use that license only to make guns for entities that do not require NFA stamped guns, which basically means military and law enforcement.
Or, a person can get licensed to possess an automatic, and purchase a pre-1986 stamped gun. (Note that conversion devices like the Lightning like and the Drop-In Auto Sear [DIAS] count as guns here, as far as the law is concerned, even though they aren't guns.) Expect to spend about $10k getting started in this hobby.
Luty's SMG is an open breech design. Don't even think about building one. But the book is a good read. It will help you understand how the Taliban held off two global super-powers mostly using guns they made themselves. In caves. With hand tools.
Note 1: Conversion of an AR-15-clone is simple. Drill one hole in the right place, drop in one part, one spring and one roll pin, potentially swap out a few other parts, depending on the exact design of your clone, and you are done. But drill that hole without proper authorization and you are looking a 10 year felony sentence.
Note 2: Since we are living in a post-Constitutional, post-Rule of Law era, any owner of a semi-automatic gun can be arrested and charged for NFA violations at any time. The ATF technicians have years of experience getting guns to double fire, and access to soft primers that will fire nearly unprovoked. They also have all the time in the world to tinker with your gun, and they get paid a salary to do it. They will get your gun to double fire at least once, and away you go.
See that "Preview" button?
I have to say, the author sounds woefully incompetent with all things mechanical. He had trouble breaking off plastic support parts? Slit his finger open with a knife? Wore latex gloves in the shop? My goodness he's making an excellent case for non-profit organizations to hand out Ghost Gunners to other such cursed individuals so they don't sustain grievous bodily harm while attempting to build homemade guns.
or a fucking idiot. Not sure which.
If you remove the crime caused by blacks the US is comparable to other countries.
mod me down, but you know it's true
There is no good way to keep bad people from owning cars, cell phones, computers, kitchen knives, baseball bats, etc. Now guns are in this category as well.
That's missing the point of gun control. For example, anyone can own a car but can't legally drive one without a licence. Okay, they could illegally drive one, but that carries risk for them. More over, cars have many uses that don't involve killing people or animals. Guns, and particularly some types of gun, are designed specifically to cause injury or death.
It's more like chemicals and other dangerous substances that you need to jump through hoops to get. Sure, you can fabricate all that stuff yourself if you really want to, but most people don't so the controls work well. Sure, anyone can make a gun*, but it requires effort and skill and risk taking and most people don't bother. If an easy kit is available they might, so it makes sense to look at limiting access to it.
What really screws things is up the emergence of 3D printers.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
That's missing the point of gun control. For example, anyone can own a car but can't legally drive one without a licence.
Eh, kind of. The state typically reserves the right to seize unlicensed cars, and only a person with a driver's license can register a car in their name. In many places in the US, the cops can legally walk right onto your property in order to ticket you and finally tow away your vehicle for lack of registration, even if the tags are not visible from the street.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Right of the rails at the end. Sounds like the climate for a shit storm of unprecedented stink if the ATF busted someone for the semi-auto Ruger they bought at Walmart.
> I know you are being sarcastic
:-)
How could you tell?
> 3d printing a gun certainly takes a lot of effort.
In 1985, using your own Laser Printer to print leaflets took a lot of effort and money. Apple's first LaserWriter cost just a shave under $8000. Add the cost of a Mac, you're well over $10,000. And this is in 1985 dollars.
Choice of software, at the time was painfully limited. MacDraw wasn't even around yet. So you could use MacPaint (painfully) and get low quality images on your laserwriter. You could use MacWrite, or Microsoft Word (such as it was) and get lots of neatly formatted text in multiple fonts and styles.
3D printing is only going to get cheaper and easier. The state of 3D printing today is the worst it will ever be.
I'll see your senator, and I'll raise you two judges.
Add even more letters to their TLA to justify its existence?
I thought we already did that and now it is the BATFE with explosives being the recent addition.
Time to offend someone
You sound similar to a friend of mine. He won't sell to someone unless they have a CCW, go through a FFL holder, or he personally knows them. The first firearm I ever purchased I bought from him but we had been friends for over 10 years at the time so it wasn't like he was selling it to some random person. I still have that SKS and it makes for a fun story when you tell people that you bought it from a cop.
Time to offend someone
You can already basically get a flame thrower shipped to you house for very little, and there is nothing stopping you from getting it. As far as poison gas goes it has been know for a long time that mixing bleach and ammonia is a bad idea.
Time to offend someone
Luty's SMG is an open breech design. Don't even think about building one. But the book is a good read. It will help you understand how the Taliban held off two global super-powers mostly using guns they made themselves. In caves. With hand tools.
The Taliban's success against foreign armed forces was because they fought a guerilla war, rather than try to take them on in open conflict. This is an eminently sensible strategy, but it tells you nothing about how effective home made guns are compared with manufactured ones.
To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
Don't people realize that this idiot meme that the 2nd amendment is about defending against the U.S. government is totally fabricated?
The 2nd amendment is about being able to protect against a foreign invader, in a time that it was assumed there will be no standing army.
Only a complete fool will imagine that in this day and age any weapons he could stockpile will protect him against "future government abuse of power".
"You appear to be making a lower receiver, would you like to :
Register that part with the authorities?
Launch this application in untraceable 'stealth' mode?
I'm actually making a replacement part for my mom's pressure cooker you insensitive clod! "
Sounds like you have a few tens of dollars burning a hole in your pocket.
Time to offend someone
A relative of mine was in court once, asking for a restraining order. She encountered a young woman with a broken arm who was crying because the judge hadn't granted a restraining order against the guy who broke it, and the young woman was frightened for her life.
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
You could easily make one, it isn't like the directions are hard to find.
APK likes to ask for responses to the same things over and over. Maybe he just likes the responses?
The "unprecedented storm" already happened a few years ago, when a guy was convicted of "transferring a machine gun" because the semi-auto rifle that he owned malfunctioned and fired 3 rounds before jamming on the range. ATF actually "investigated" his rifle by sticking rounds with progressively softer primers into it until they could "reproduce" it. ATF also refused to provide the details of how they tested the rifle to conclude that it was a "machine gun", and when the guy sued to compel them to disclose those details, the court ruled against him - so to this date, ATF expert's word on the stand that they identified the gun as full auto somehow is all that is known. The guy got 30 months of federal prison.
Note that this is a failure mode that literally any semi-auto firearm firing from a closed bolt is capable of - all it takes is for the firing pin to get stuck in a forward position (for example, because of accumulation of carbon due to firing) and a sufficiently soft primer. It will also consistently cause a jam almost immediately, so it's not actually useful for any practical purpose.
I think what he means is that to fight a guerrilla war, you need to solve the logistics question, and that includes firearms. The fact that firearms like this one can be easily produced without pretty much any industry whatsoever, and only a few basic tools that only need to be imported once, allows the guerrillas to arm themselves, leaving only ammo to worry about. It's not just Taliban - Chechens employed a homemade SMG called "Borz" in 1994, and if you go back even further there's Sten and its various clones and derivatives (Blyskawica used by the Polish resistance in WW2, Pleter and Zagi used by Croats in their independence war and in Bosnia etc).
Sure, anyone can make a gun*, but it requires effort and skill and risk taking and most people don't bother. If an easy kit is available they might, so it makes sense to look at limiting access to it.
What really screws things is up the emergence of 3D printers.
That was my point. Guns are in the category of "can not keep people from getting", *because* of the emergence of 3D printers.
The OP said:
Whoever thinks that making guns cheap and easy to fabricate without skills is a good idea, is nuts.
As if it was some decision made by a person in a position of authority. All it takes is one nut to figure out how to do it cheaply, and the toothpaste is out of the tube, and there is no putting it back in.
Now that the building blocks for this technology exist, what were the odds that 0 people out of 7 billion would figure out how to make cheap guns and release this information to the public? 0%.
That's my point. It doesn't matter if it's a good idea or not. All it takes is one person to do it, and then we live in a world where it's easy.
You can't even ban 3D printers, because not only do we have 3D printers that print out their own parts, you would just be uniting the gun nuts and the maker movement.
I don't really have a need for more than one AR-15. The mill alone costs more than a new AR-15 from Colt. It costs twice as much as the Armalite products. It's cool to say I did it and all, but I didn't really. I bought a bunch of parts and did a little bit of milling on one of them. I "made" the gun in much the way that I "made" my motorcycle because I changed the tires and the oil.
Easy Online Role Playing Campaign Management
Show me a country where things got better after the peasants were no longer allowed to possess the means to defend themselves.
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." ~Thomas Jefferson
The point of gun control is people control. It's not about lowering crime, it's about ensuring that politicians do not have to fear armed rebellion. Just remember, the worst school massacre in US history didn't involve a gun, just a pissed off school employee with home made explosives and a baseball bat. James Holmes could have killed FAR more people in that movie theater if he'd just gone to Walmart and bought some bike chains, kerosene, and matches.
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." ~Thomas Jefferson
What the hell does that have to do with anything? Who's not allowing anything? Regulation is used to do things like keep felons, drunks, and the mentally unstable from having weapons, in this case guns. Feel free to spare me of any "slippery slope" bullshit.
What I can do is say that every country has become better when peasants no longer need to defend themselves...like in the US, where carrying a gun around is probably overall about as likely to save your life from an attacker as carrying a grounding rod will save you from getting struck by lightning.
Well uranium can be mined in a lot of places where people live. There are places in the US where simply walking outside and picking up a couple rocks will net you a few ppm of uranium. Finding abandoned mines and picking up some of the tailing will often net a pretty decent concentration.
I only point this out because getting a decent purity of uranium from rocks is probably the least of your problem if you need a particular isotope.
We had a freind who was in the war. He knew guns and we thought he liked them. But he said one day that he saw no need for assault rifles.
We asked him why. It turned out that he had been a tank commander, and thought anything smaller than a 100mm bore was too small for practical use!
8-)
Who's not allowing anything?
Promotes banning things, then says "who's not allowing anything". Many laughs were had. Sadly, every person who wants to ban guns says "I don't want to ban guns". Just like how politicians say "I want to protect freedom" when voting for / signing a bill that takes away freedom.
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." ~Thomas Jefferson
Speaks to the third person of the original post, then sets up a straw man. Many faces were palmed. Sadly normal people who enjoy shooting for sport or collecting guns for craftsmanship and what not are drowned out by you morons who don't realize that regulation!=ban.
Read it again because I never said ban anything. That's your paranoia, sonny.
And since we're a few comments deep and we've clearly pigeon holed each other...what the fuck would satisfy you (who's handle means "dead bell" for god knows what reason (yeah I'm one to talk) and I assume is the type to make a youtube video of carrying a rifle into Wendy's to make a statement)? Every newborn infant gets an AR15 for the right hand and an AK47 for the left? And of course the doctors and nurses need to be strapped in case the kid's a terrorist? Or should we also replace fire extinguishers with sawed off shotguns for good measure?
Seriously (as if thats possible at this point..) what's your end game? The US already has the most guns per capita IN. THE. WORLD. Nearly 1-1. Its like 50% more than the next highest country which I think is freaking Serbia, a country thats never 5 years out from civil war. Stop being such a pussy when you already have everything you could possibly want and have to invent boogey men to fight.
Gun shows in most states legally bypass many of the regular laws. Has that changed?
That is a lie. The ONLY change a gun show allows is a Federal Firearms Licensee to transfer a firearm at the gun show instead of at the business location. Every law is still in force and enforced even at gunshows.
Yes, but it was my understanding that there is a lot of 'wink wink' going on at gun shows. The laws are present, but not enforced. My only evidence of this is a undercover 60 minutes-like documentary. Has that not been your experience?
I've bought and sold at Gun shows. The ATF usually sets up a booth there and police are present providing security at the doors. FFL's have to log in and out every firearm received and sold/transferred with a to and from. If the to isn't an FFL they have to have a matching 4473 form, and the ATF audits them. People have and do go to jail for innocent paperwork errors. If there is anything intentional suspected then their business gets shut down until the investigation is over. Personal buys and sells are not wink/wink because there is likely as not undercover agents there as well. The 60 minutes documentary had the journalists actually committing several felonies and were(cough*David Gregory*cough) not prosecuted because of who they are.
The real reason for the whole gun show loophole propaganda is to get people who don't know about the laws and realities to push to make it illegal for private individuals to buy, sell, gift, and inherit guns to each other without going through a federal licensee/dealer. This raises the prices of guns by at least $100 per sale, and creates a de-facto gun registry so that later they can tell you like Dianne Feinstein wanted to "If I could have gotten 51 votes in the Senate of the United States for an outright ban, picking up every one of them . . . Mr. and Mrs. America, turn 'em all in, I would have done it. I could not do that. The votes weren't here."