How American Students Can Get a University Degree For Free In Germany

HughPickens.com writes: BBC reports that Germany has abandoned tuition fees altogether for German and international students alike and more than 4,600 US students are fully enrolled at Germany universities, an increase of 20% over three years. "When I found out that just like Germans I'm studying for free, it was sort of mind blowing," says Katherine Burlingame who decided to get her Master's degree at a university in the East German town of Cottbus. "I realized how easy the admission process was and how there was no tuition fee. This was a wow moment for me." When Katherine came to Germany in 2012 she spoke two words of German: 'hallo' and 'danke'. She arrived in an East German town which had, since the 1950s, taught the majority of its residents Russian rather than English. "At first I was just doing hand gestures and a lot of people had compassion because they saw that I was trying and that I cared." She did not need German, however, in her Master's program, which was filled with students from 50 different countries but taught entirely in English. In fact, German universities have drastically increased all-English classes to more than 1,150 programs across many fields.

So how can Germany afford to educate foreign students for free? Think about it this way: it's a global game of collecting talent. All of these students are the trading cards, and the collectors are countries. If a country collects more talent, they'll have an influx of new ideas, new businesses and a better economy. For a society with a demographic problem — a growing retired population and fewer young people entering college and the workforce — qualified immigration is seen as a resolution to the problem as research shows that 50% of foreign students stay in Germany. "Keeping international students who have studied in the country is the ideal way of immigration," says Sebastian Fohrbeck."They have the needed certificates, they don't have a language problem at the end of their stay and they know the culture."

Comments

and the beer is really good

[jfdavis668]

Just what college kids need, access to beer.

Re:and the beer is really good

[Stephan Schulz]

I love Germany, but I don't know of any German beers that are all that good. They certainly have the reputation but the reality has always been disappointing.

The unusual quality that might irritate people used to Bud Light is called "taste", and is usually considered a good thing in beers.

Re:and the beer is really good

[antiperimetaparalogo]

I love Germany, but I don't know of any German beers that are all that good. They certainly have the reputation but the reality has always been disappointing.

I can accept your opinion IF you are from some of Germany's neighbor countries (e.g., Austria/Belgium/Czech - great beers!), or at least from Europe (e.g., i am from Greece, maybe the European country with the least "beer" tradition, but still we have a couple of decent large-scale production beers, plus, a dozen of good micro-brew beers), OR... you exclude from your good beer list any American (at least large-scale production - i can accept that some good micro-brew beers exist in USA... from German descendents!).

Re:and the beer is really good

[nedlohs]

Belgium is right next door. Who cares about the actual German beer...

Re:and the beer is really good

[angel'o'sphere]

Drinking beer and wine (unsupervised) is legal in most of Europe for kids aged 16 and above.

Supervised by parents AFAIK it is 14 (in germany). However no one really cares if the kids are younger in the presence of their parents.

Re:and the beer is really good

[angel'o'sphere]

Then describe what beer you like and you easy get hundreds of suggestions here.

The bandwidth of taste is so big if you had to taste with bound eyes you likely would many beers not even really recognize as a beer.

Re:and the beer is really good

[bobbied]

I love Germany, but I don't know of any German beers that are all that good. They certainly have the reputation but the reality has always been disappointing.

They are not that good, they are just served in larger portions, which makes all the difference... (Well, that and they generally have more alcohol than what Americans are used to). Once you are buzzed, everything tastes good..... Well, at least to the college student.

BTW... I'm partially kidding. The Germans are generally better at brewing beer than the bulk of what's consumed on this side of the pond. Although with the micro-brewery thing here in the states, we have some really good stuff here too, it just doesn't usually come from the big nation wide commercial brewers..

Re:and the beer is really good

[swb]

America used to be the home of mass-produced watery beer, but I don't know about that anymore.

There are so many good beers brewed at American small brewers that it's hard to imagine. There are nearly a dozen microbreweries (nearly all of them canning & bottling for retail sales) within the city limits of Minneapolis alone, each with 3-4 regular production brews.

The shelf space at two of the better stores around here is like 50% small brewery, 30% imports and the remaining 20% pretty much everything else, including all the major brands. It's astonishing how fast the beer market has changed. There are even a few places that have opened up that sell nothing but microbrews with an inventory bigger than a lot of other entire liquor stores.

And all of this is compounded by the small brewers who aren't distributing across state lines. Half the great beer we don't even get access to because its stranded by ridiculous national tax rules.

Re:and the beer is really good

[Penguinisto]

He meant actual beer, not the mass-marketed barley-water that passes for 'beer' here in the US.

(then again, if you attend Portland State University, then kindly ignore what I just wrote, because you're pretty much good to go.)

Re:and the beer is really good

[antiperimetaparalogo]

Yes, that "mass-produced watery beer" (some brands of it imported in Europe (!)... for American tourists!) is my experience of American beer - i am glad that you mentioned good quality small brewery variety exist nowadays in the States, i am happy for you!
I was not trying to insult Yankees (i LOVE bourbon!), i just made a comparison (even our mass-produced -EVEN THE GREEK BRANDS, which is probably the worse in Europe- is decent beer).

Re:and the beer is really good

[Opportunist]

You might want to keep that to yourself in Germany. Saying German beer isn't all that good is like saying you think Polish Vodka is the best ... and you're in Russia.

Re:and the beer is really good

[penguinoid]

Obligatory xkcd.

Re:and the beer is really good

[execthis]

OMG I remember fondly riding my rickety bicycle over the winding cobblestone streets into the Zentrum every week and getting the best pilsner in the world in some place that was like hundreds of years old and buzzing with all kinds of cool people. And riding back home over the cobblestones feeling giddy. Great memory.

As far as education in America - fuck America and its greed and appalling lack of vision. America is now quickly become a place that is only suitable for two types of people - retards and entitleds. It has a lot to offer the lobotomized, retarded masses. Great sports arenas. Tons of entertainment. And it has nice enclaves for the entitleds. But for normal, middle-class people it has become total shit.

Re:and the beer is really good

[grahamsz]

I grew up in Scotland and now live in Boulder, CO.

The average standard and selection of beer in the US is so far head and shoulders above Scotland it's not even comparable. It's not unusual for restaurants to have dozens of beers on tap and larger liquor stores carry hundreds of different brews. If you like a good scots ale then you'll be ok in most of Scotland, and if you like a typical German beer then you'll be happy there, but if you like having a large selection of things to choose from then you'll be happier here.

Re:and the beer is really good

[grahamsz]

Plus if you exclude american breweries that aren't US-owned then you've suddenly lost Bud, Miller and Coors - that makes the average american beer a fuckton better

Re:and the beer is really good

[Shadow of Eternity]

The problem is "microbrew" in america is pretty synonymous with an absolutely rip-snortingly insane amount of hops, you may as well just put a bunch in a blender and add ethanol.

Re:and the beer is really good

[MBGMorden]

There's no shortage of pretty good beer in the US (heck I make my own). The problem is that only a small percentage of people actually want it. Anything beyond Budweiser or Coors Light is considered "weird tasting". That's changing, but for the most part people are drinking that "mass marketed barley water" by choice, not out of lack of options.

Re:and the beer is really good

[ILongForDarkness]

German Pils are kind of middle of the road. I stick to wheat beers and the occasional Dunkle/Schwartz (darker beers). The problem is most people when they experience German imported beer it is usually Becks or Warsteiner neither of which are very good. The good thing in Germany is the prices too. You can get a decent Czech beer if you don't like German for around $1 a 0.5L ~pint (not a "bottle" like they call them over here), bottle of vodka for about $7, nice French wine for about 10 (pisses the French off their wine is cheaper in Germany) etc.

The article: food cost is being optimistic. It all depends on how much like a student you want to live. Meat is much more expensive as is fruit (when I was living there 7 years ago it was a euro for a grapefruit (~1.50 back then). Meat is about the same price in euros as it is in dollars over here (going by canadian prices which is expensive by US standards so probably more like 1.25X USD price in euros ~2X). Gas is about 2/3 the cost in euros per L as it is in the US per gallon. So if you are a student sure hope you don't want to drive.

Re:and the beer is really good

[ILongForDarkness]

IMO you need to step away from the german pils/lagers. Weisse both Heifen and Kristal are just magical. The problem is typically tourists come over and expect to order something that "looks like it does back home" and get Becks or a local equivalent and it is just okay. That said if you like to drink Bud or similar style piss you can get it in Germany for around 30 cents a pint.

Re:and the beer is really good

[blueg3]

The unusual quality that might irritate people used to Bud Light is called "taste", and is usually considered a good thing in beers.

It would be a tough call to choose between the so-called "flavor" of Beck's or Bitburger and the lack thereof of Bud Light.

Mercifully, in Germany and the US, you can get good beer. It accounts for a small fraction of nationwide sales (and a tiny fraction of exports) in either case, but it's there.

Germany is heavy on tradition, so most of the breweries that are good have been doing this a long time. The mass-market is newer and sucks. In the US, the closest thing to a worthwhile traditional beer is something like PBR or Narragansett. (The mass-market crap we got from a combination of German immigrants and industrialization.) So all of our good breweries are young and experimental. Either works, but sadly, neither makes a sizable dent in mass-market beer.

Re:and the beer is really good

[blueg3]

That's so 2000s.

Now it's Belgians. No, wait, sorry, that was two years ago. Saisons? "Farmhouse"? No, that was last year. Sours. I think it's sours now. Especially gose or barrel-aged. Though there's always been a level of support for anything barrel-aged, especially if the alcohol level makes you double check to make sure it's not wine you're buying.

The hoppiness is probably a byproduct of the fact that we have good hop breeding labs and a lot of brewers tired of beer with no bitterness. (Incidentally, Germany has good hop breeding labs, too, but they have a hard time selling their more aggressively-flavored products locally. Sad for a country that's fighting losing one of the world's finest hops to disease and that processes a ton of delicately-flavored hops into canned hop extract.)

Also, it's dextrose-heavy double IPAs that taste like an ethanol-water hop tea. (Or, if you prefer, triple-strength Bud Light with hops.) Even quite hoppy single IPAs still have a noticeable malt presence and yeast esters.

Re:and the beer is really good

[angel'o'sphere]

Don't be shy about greek beer,

Nor is Strella as someone mentioned above a bad beer either.

Beers ... and that counts for many drinks, like a good Sangria ... are made in a certain context.

E.g. San Miguell, a spanish beer, would not win a contest in Germany. Some pubs sell it here and honestly, it is not bad, but for german taste simply to simple. On the other hand: if you drink it in Spain, where/when it is really hot, and you get it served in a glass that was "frozen" in a freezer and gets icy hoarfrost on the outside: it tastes marvelous!

Then in Germany we have so many beers that are brewed for a special occasion. And: if you drink such a beer half a year later: it simply does not taste well.

It is interesting to look at beer bottle labels and figure the "served best at temperature X".

Like with wine, every beer has its special temperature where it tastes best, and for many beers we even have a special glass for the beer. Some beers taste best if drunk from the bottle.

So if you have a random beer in your hands which tastes not good, it simply might be circumstances.

No one will like a heavy, sweat, brown christmas/winter beer with 5.5% (or up to 7.5%) alcohol served at 10 to 12 degrees celsius (which could be the right temperature) in a hot summer with 35 degrees or 40 degrees. Nor would you like it if it is winter and it is cooled down to 8 degrees.

Those heavy beers where invented (Belgium is famous for them) by monks who had to faste during certain periods of the year. So they invented beers that are replacements for the meals. So the beers are heavy and full of nutritions.

Bottom line: if you drink a greek beer in Greece, according to local customs (temperature, time of day etc.) it very likely tastes very well.

Same with Retsina ... a cheap simple greek wine. The good ones are marvelous, but you can only drink them in Germany when it is really hot and the wine is really cold.

Re:and the beer is really good

[blueg3]

They are not that good, they are just served in larger portions, which makes all the difference... (Well, that and they generally have more alcohol than what Americans are used to).

That's a tough sell. Most of the popular German beers are only around 5%. That's more than Bud Light but not outside the range that any college student would be used to. But many of those are served at ~350 mL (12 oz). Weizenbier is often served by the half liter, but that's just a pint. The only German beer that's regularly served in a Mass (liter) is Munich beers. Those are often ~4%. So you're really down to just Munich festbier, which can be north of 5% and served in two-pint glasses.

The real devil is the undertrained American bartender who will pour you a pint of a Scotch ale, Russian Imperial Stout, Belgian quad, barleywine, or big double IPA. Oof.

Re:and the beer is really good

[angel'o'sphere]

You neither pay in grmany nor france 10 euros for an "ordinary" bottle of wine.

And rest assured: a frensh wine is rarely cheaper in germany than in france.

Re:and the beer is really good

[rtb61]

Seriously that is all the morons in this thread get from this story, access to German beer. The United States promotes the American Dream to gain immigrants, becoming a success where the sole measure of success is wealth and thus strives to attract, well, hmm, the greedy. So how are all those get rich quick narcissists and psychopaths working out for America. Hows the corruption going at every level of government, private industry, news organisations, religious organisations and even charities (PS stop calling the American Red Cross the Red Cross, own your own corruption).

So Germany seeks to bring in those who want to learn and the US still purely seeks those who want just want to earn by any means possible. America answer to this waffle on about beer, now what does that remind me of, ohh, that's right typical America media censorship of important stories in favour of empty reality TV fabrications.

Re:and the beer is really good

[Bing Tsher E]

The whole purpose of beer is because the water was bad and dangerous to drink back when beer was actually a practical beverage. Now it's just a cultural thing, like lutefisk.

It's sort of like ketchup. I have an old cookbook, and it has all sorts of kinds of ketchup. The tomato variety is the only one that most people think of anymore, but there was ketchup made out of all sorts of things, for example walnut ketchup. In particular, things that people wanted to preserve out-of-season in the old days.

Re:and the beer is really good

[AK Marc]

Nope. Nobody like beer. They just get used to it, and associate good feelings with it. I don't know anyone that liked their first cup of coffee or their first cigarette, but I know plenty addicted to them. Beer sucks. You have to drink it multiple times to drink it without making a silly face (aside from the Bud Light varieties that are so flavorless that they are less offensive).

What's that you say?

[gstoddart]

The cost of the education pales in comparison to the benefit to society, and the profits isn't always a good metric?

I like your ideas, and I would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

Re:What's that you say?

[Anonymous Coward]

US: Go to school and get buried in student loans only to have your job offshored and you're stuck with the loans until you die. Cannot get a job or underemployed where you have no chance of paying them off? Fuck you pay me - you entitled peon! You owe corporate America because of ... something!

Germany: Go for free because business and government understand that they are all in it with you and what's good for you is good for them.

Huh. How about that?

Re:What's that you say?

[Totenglocke]

"Free". You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. They pay out the ass in taxes for that "free" education and over the course of their career, they'll pay more money than if they just took out loans and paid for it themselves. But sure, keep using the word "free" for things paid for via taxes.

Re:What's that you say?

[Anonymous Coward]

Your terrible argument assumes a simple "dollars out, dollars in" model.

In theory, it's possible that educating everyone increases the wealth of everyone involved by an amount greater than the taxes paid out to cover education over the course of their working lifetime.

Re:What's that you say?

[angel'o'sphere]

Taxes in the US are quite similar to those in germany.

You are just an idiot with "knowledge" that is minimum outdated for 2 decades ...and hence your "opinion" is not worth a single cent.

Re:What's that you say?

[nbauman]

"Free". You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. They pay out the ass in taxes for that "free" education and over the course of their career, they'll pay more money than if they just took out loans and paid for it themselves. But sure, keep using the word "free" for things paid for via taxes.

Yes, it is free.

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazi...

Research shows that the system is working, says Sebastian Fohrbeck of DAAD, and that 50% of foreign students stay in Germany.

"Even if people don't pay tuition fees, if only 40% stay for five years and pay taxes we recover the cost for the tuition and for the study places so that works out well."

It's free to the student because he didn't pay anything.

It's free to the government because they got paid back from it more than they put in.

It's free because when you invest money, and get more out of it than you put in, it's free.

City College in New York City used to be free. CCNY turned out Nobel laureates and creators of industry like Andy Grove, founder of Intel. You can read the biographies on the Nobel prize web site of people who say that they never could have afforded to go to college if CCNY weren't free.

CCNY was a meritocracy. You got in because you made the grade. That's different from a free market, where you get in because your father is rich (like George W. Bush).

I don't think you know what the word "free" means. Most native speakers of English know what the word "free" means, because they are familiar with "free" education and "free" libraries, which is where a lot of them spent their childhood.

I think there must be a script going around to search message boards for the text "free", and post a reply, "It's not free! They pay for it in taxes!"

People in functioning democracies realize that there are some services that the government can provide more cheaply than the "free" market. Education is one of them. The market is always more expensive. You can pay $10,000 in taxes or $20,000 in the marketplace for a year of school. There is no developed country in the world that doesn't provide free education for its population.

In the presidential election, Bernie Sanders is the one candidate who says that college should be free (as it is in Europe), and that students should be able to discharge their current loans. Sanders went to Brooklyn College, which was free at that time (and graduated a few Nobel laureates too).

So if you want free college for yourself and your children, and you want to get rid of your college debts, vote for Bernie. If like Mitch Romney your father's rich, then vote for Hillary or the Repugnicans.

It's also possible that your father is rich, but you want to see free college education for everyone because it's right, or because it's good for the country.

Re:What's that you say?

[bobbied]

So you are saying someone in Germany that goes to college will owe more because of higher taxes vs someone in the US that goes to college and owes back student loans plus pays taxes? Yeah, I don't think so.

I've not run the numbers, but I believe you are not taking everything into account here. Yes, Germans pay much higher tax rates than we do in the USA and where paying back student loans my be onerous for the people who choose to take on more debt than they can expect to be able to repay, I believe that the extra tax burden for life in Germany far exceeds the costs or paying your own way. Of curse, it all depends on where you end up on the income scale, because Germany has a progressive taxation structure with nearly 19% VAT (think sales tax on every thing you buy, though it's sometime hidden from you), plus a top income tax rate of 45% with all the same property taxes and such you have in the USA. It's more, much more, for most upper middle class.

So, sacrificing say 15% of your earnings for life sure seems like a bad trade for any reasonable amount of student loans. Using a community college for 2 years then 2 years at a state school would run you under 20K in tuition, books and fees (more like 15K). If you are careful, work summers, you should get though your STEM degree and into the work force with say $25K in debt (or less if you try or manage to get some scholarships/grants etc.) $25K is a whole lot less than 15% of your lifetime earnings...

Let's say you manage to average 100K/year for 25 years of work, if the increase in taxes is even 5%, you will pay $125,000 for that "free" education. Of course you will pay more than $25K back on your loans, but again, if you just pay the 5% of your income, with starting salaries starting above $60K and quickly rising to $80K, you are going to pay back that loan at 3-4K/year and be done with the debt in 10 years or less.

No, I'll pass on the "free" stuff..

Re:What's that you say?

[Opportunist]

Erh... no.

I know taxes in Germany and I know taxes in the US, I earned money in Germany and I earned money in the US. Taxes are minimally higher in Germany, but considering what you get for your buck, it's money well spent.

Re:What's that you say?

[Opportunist]

Maybe you might want to add that the 45% income tax only applies to you if you already make more money than a sensible person can spend in a lifetime. But it's superficial little tidbits like these that you so conveniently forget to mention...

The main difference is maybe that anyone can start studying at a university, rich or poor, with your brains, not your pockets, dictating whether you get an education. But hey, why should those peons get that right? Down with competition from below!

Re:What's that you say?

[nbauman]

Germany has fewer college graduates. Is Sanders telling the less intelligent 2/3 that he is going to save them from student loans by refusing them admission to college, or is he just a bullshitter?

Germany invests in a student's education, and gets that money paid back in taxes after 5 years (just like CCNY did). With that return on investment, any business would keep expanding.

If Sanders got his way, anybody who was willing to put in the academic effort could go to college.

Even if a kid only goes for 1 year and drops out, you've still increased his lifetime earnings and tax contributions. It's free money.

Germany BTW has one of the best systems of trade schools in the world, so students can also choose vocational training if they prefer.

That's the kind of vocational education system the US used to have before the Reagan Revolution. We did it before, we can do it again.

Re:What's that you say?

[rkww]

No, I'll pass on the "free" stuff..

You seem to have missed the entire point of this story - 'how American students can get a University degree for free.'

Get a degree in Germany, move back to the USA (...if you still want to.)

Comprende ?

Re:What's that you say?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's so funny when you say someone with a bachelor degree is a post grad.
When bachelor/master degrees were introduced here in Germany, the industry didn't know what to do with those bachelor students that knew only half of what the old Diplom students knew.

Re:What's that you say?

[cyn1c77]

"Free". You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. They pay out the ass in taxes for that "free" education and over the course of their career, they'll pay more money than if they just took out loans and paid for it themselves. But sure, keep using the word "free" for things paid for via taxes.

You know what else you get for all those taxes? A work/life balance, health care, retirement, and a lot of other benefits.

Seriously, this excuse that Americans "save" money by paying for everything individually is crap. You pay federal taxes, state taxes, sales taxes (you have now taxed me three times for each dollar spent, thanks). I have to work out my tax liability myself, unlike the Germans, who get a government estimate. Then I pay for half of my health care premiums on top of that. Since Obamacare, premiums have gone up for me and coverage has gone down, so I pay more money for each non-wellcare doctor's visit. (And then taxes on top of that.) I get two weeks of vacation a year (which I will be unofficially penalized at work if I actually use all of it) and no paternity leave.

Let's not forget the 401K that constitutes the entirety of my retirement savings, since pensions no longer exist for younger workers in the US. (They are even taking them away for older workers now!) I also have no paid retirement health care (a future financial concern for me), so that will be an out of pocket expense too. And, on top of all that, I have to pay for college out of pocket and save for my childrens' potential college costs (and who knows if they will even want to go).

So, explain to me again how paying a 50% tax rate instead of a 25% tax rate saves me money in the long run. I still have to pay for the same things, but they are future expenses with unknown costs that will definitely be higher than an additional 25% of my tax rate.

Re:What's that you say?

[drinkypoo]

Germany has fewer college graduates.

Germany realizes that college isn't for everyone, and doesn't shit on people who go to a tech school instead.

Re:What's that you say?

[grahamsz]

But you are also suggesting that's just for education which is clearly untrue.

I've never lived in Germany, but in Scotland you get a lot more for your income tax dollars than you do in the US. Of course if you happen to never get sick or never need welfare then the US is probably going to win overall, but it's hard to make that bet.

Re:What's that you say?

[Anonymous Coward]

Taxes are minimally higher in Germany, but considering what you get for your buck, it's money well spent.

That's probably, because Germany doesn't have over 200 military bases around the world to maintain; money that could be spent on the welfare of the population instead of protecting the status quo of the elite few.

Re:What's that you say?

[Anonymous Coward]

You don't understand Europeans. If you have a degree and are 30-something and haven't lived in at least 2-3 countries, people think you've left yourself behind. And you seem narrow-minded, if you don't have kids but have already decided where to settle. Europeans relocate a lot - not just within Europe but of course also to other continents because there's a big world to explore and you only have one life. As a side note: Don't think the US is that special just because a lot of us come there to work and study - we go everywhere. When there is a certain correlation between higher (progressive) taxes and living standards, Europeans happily pay taxes as "rent" for staying in a nice country. That said, I do see some merit to your typical, American view which emphasizes personal responsibility and so on. On that side of the pond you also work a lot harder and save for retirement - the earlier the better because you need it since you work so hard :) Here we rely on "the system" instead of even thinking about it.

What you also seem to have missed is that in your scenario, there's a lot less of a safety net. If you get an illness or something else unexpected substantially disrupts your studies or work, what do you do? Even if you get your illness treated without the treatment costing you an arm and a leg (I assume Obamacare should nowadays ensure that), a couple of years out of work can harm your career and budget substantially for a long, long time.

Re:What's that you say?

[angel'o'sphere]

In Germany literally EVERYBODY pays 42% (from 50K Euros which if poverty on up) and that jumps to the top marginal rate of 45% once you reach 250K Euros.

Sorry that is simply plain wrong.
No idea where you got that from.

Re:What's that you say?

[MoaDweeb]

Hey, Ben F.!
Citations please!

The personal views of a rich white man from the 18th Century are not necessarily germane to a discussion of 21st Century taxation policy.

Re:What's that you say?

[grahamsz]

I prefer the US. Though I'm young, in good health and am very well paid. Though I have the ultimate fallback and can potentially retire to the UK when thats a better fit for my needs.

Selfish certainly, but it's nice to have that option.

If i wasn't on a six figure income I'd probably go back though, the US is horribly stacked against the lower middle class.

Re:What's that you say?

[ultranova]

Which do you prefer? Freedom, Higher risks and higher reward? No risk, less freedom, but a lower standard of living?

And by "less freedom" you mean "higher taxes", which is not the common meaning of the word or concept.

Socialism has made many promises it cannot keep. Capitalism promises nothing, but can generate much more wealth.

Capitalists, however, demand the entire society be ordered for the sake of making that wealth, which they then pocket. Socialism rose as a counter-reaction to this abuse, and will continue existing as long as Capitalism will.

Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.

Not having to pay your share for the upkeep of the very society you live in is not essential liberty. But then again, the way things are going, I suppose we'll have another revolution before soon. I guess that will hammer the lesson home once again, until the generation that experienced it fades away and the cycle starts again. Just as happened after the World Wars and the rise of Communism.

Re:What's that you say?

[Ramze]

You're conflating freedom with capitalism as well as conflating a social program with socialism.

In the USA, the people have long held that providing an education is so essential to the public good that it's mandatory for everyone to attend school up to a certain age - and usually tax-payer funded. Every public elementary, middle, and high school is a social program. Germany has simply included college as an essential social program - which makes sense given that today's economy requires higher education (given that robots and machines have taken over manual labor.)

Since most decent paying jobs today require a college degree, most every argument made for supporting the public social schooling programs of K-12 in the past can be made for supporting college today as well. Even those that do not have children still pay the taxes for K-12 because it's widely understood that the more educated the populace, the better tools they have to get jobs and the more informed they'll be on social issues when voting.

Your prior post, as the parent points out, omit that Germany is a very different country and provides different benefits than the USA's system - such as their universal health care. Overall, it also has lower rent prices, lower grocery prices, and higher purchasing power than the USA. They have different social programs; but they are not a socialist country.

http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-...

Re:What's that you say?

[tempmpi]

Which do you prefer? Freedom, Higher risks and higher reward? No risk, less freedom, but a lower standard of living?

It is not a binary choice. Rewards for doing well are still high in Germany. It not "no risk" but lower risk. Average standard of living is almost the same in Germany and the US: Where-to-be-born Index You will have a lower standard of living if you are doing well and earning a lot, but on other hand your are not doing that well, maybe because of an illness or because of a few bad choices that you have made, then your standard of living will be a lot higher in Germany.

Socialism has made many promises it cannot keep. Capitalism promises nothing, but can generate much more wealth.

Germany is not trying to establish socialism. Its system is called "social market economy", it is basically capitalism with some regulations and some redistribution of wealth. But it is not even that different from the US. Germany is spending 25.8% of its GDP on these programs, while the US spends 19.2% of its GDP on these programs. There is not a huge difference. There is a slight difference in how the two systems are adjusted but it is not huge.
Statistics from the OCED

Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. And to in my experience end up giving up liberty AND security.

How are people in germany giving up "essential liberty"? Since when is paying 35% instead of 25% taxes giving up "essential liberty"?

Re:What's that you say?

[tempmpi]

Most universities in Germany offer a wide choice of recreational sport activities. People will not get any credits for joining these activities. People are doing it for recreation and there are no official sport teams formed by the university. Universities in Germany do not really care if their students are successful at competitive sports.

Re:What's that you say?

[dave420]

You seem incredibly confused and angry. Germans have an incredible quality of life and access to wonderful universities and so many other benefits of modern society, all not depending on to whom you were born. But we know that. You know that. You are angry about this and are trying to make it sound bad, and failing massively. You are ignoring so many of the benefits Germans get from those taxes, which doesn't strike me as particularly honest.

Re:What's that you say?

[dave420]

Because he pays 25% and is American, therefore paying 25% means freedom. Paying any more than that can't possibly be freedom, in his eyes.

Re:What's that you say?

[dave420]

Lots of countries do this. Germany used to do this, then stopped, and now has reinstated the program. I'm arguing that those people know more about this than you, regardless of what your fit-to-bursting ego tells you :)

Re:What's that you say?

[dunkelfalke]

You look at numbers, but don't understand what they mean. For you, very high wages are important because you have to pay into a pension fund, you have to pay for the healthcare, you need to make some savings in case you lose your job, you need to pay off the loans and decent food is expensive. This is why you think that EUR 50k is basically the poverty line. Matter of fact it isn't, not in Germany, because all the things I have mentioned previously are already taken care of. So we pay more in taxes, but far less in everything else. This is why EUR 50k is solid middle class income for a single person in Germany.

Re:How can they afford it?

[Hognoxious]

If DeVry's Master of Finance program allows resits, you should look into it. Because you appear to have debtors and creditors the wrong way round.

You aren't that fucking 7 digit windbag who goes on about Aristophanes, are you?

Re:How can they afford it?

[rogoshen1]

Look man, if the Germans are going to dominate Europe, there's worse ways they could go about it -- right?

Re:How can they afford it?

[bsolar]

University is pretty cheap in almost all Europe. Most countries have tuitions of about 1000$ per year, which include administrative costs. More than a few countries offer completely free university to EU citizens and Finland offers free university to non-EU citizens too.

Drinking Age - 18 -

[burni2]

Hi,

the drinking age is 18 .. meaning .. Vodka, Barcardi, Tequilla, ..

Our national iconographic singer songwriter and essaist "Otto" described the joys of drinking in his epic song

"Wir haben Grund zum Feiern!" / "We need to party!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

Re:Education

[gstoddart]

And yet, Germany has the biggest economy in Europe, a massive trade surplus, and has a heavy focus on technology and manufacturing.

Maybe the Germans have collectively decided that the cost of the education is trivial compared to the long term gains of keeping some highly educated people around, or having its own citizens be educated.

Maybe, gasp, it's possible to both make profits and take care of your people -- and that it isn't an either/or proposition.

An example of a larger trend

[MyNameIsJohn]

This might be an example of a larger trend for countries with a downward trend in immigration and unsustainable birth rates (ie. less than replacement rate), country vs country, or society vs society to attract talent, ideas instead of just businesses will be the new future.

The race to the bottom for corporate taxes did not accomplish lasting benefits to the societies, now countries want the people which is always where the lasting benefits were.

Imagine, for those mobile enough, to have the options of what country you would like to live, educate, work, raise a family in laid out in front of you. I imagine many countries in Europe would be up there near the top of the list. A main reason to stay where you are is familiarity, family, friends, existing work history and contacts, but in the future where connections can cross the world, the countries depending on a person's roots to stay in the country and not attracting new talent will eventually fall down the ladder.

Re:How can they afford it?

[Kartu]

Compared to USA where they are paying 10k+ (several times more than that in top universities) that's still very cheap.

Re:Education

[JustNiz]

Getting an education in the US is waay different to Germany.

Firstly, education in the US is one of the most expensive in the world. So foreigners that study in the US generally are relatively rich (or from rich families) to start with, and paying A LOT more than it would cost them to live in their own country to be there.

>> not Everyone moves out of the US after studying here...but they're not forced to.

They pretty much are. To study in the US you need a student visa which expires after you graduate or flunk out. If you stay outside of that, without having an something like an H1B or a green card you're illegal. simple. And those are not so easy/quick to get.
Also except for some very specific cases to do with training related to study, a student visa does not entitle you to work either.

Re:Education

[Anonymous Coward]

Why not all three?

Who is really going to invade a country with nuclear arms? The US fights a war from 60 years ago while modern Germany "fights" on an economic and intellectual front. Good luck fighting this year's battles with 6 decades old thinking.

Sorry to dismantle your three-way false logic.

Re:Education

[DutchUncle]

A problem, as in other European countries, is that they are facing immigration from other subcultures which DO have different values, especially about remaining distinct (not integrating socially and/or culturally).

Law?

[angel'o'sphere]

Wow, articles about nonsense, because americans can not believe that "not being 100% capitalistic" is not the same as being socialistic or communistic.

Look at this, an extract from the german constitution:
(1) Alle Menschen sind vor dem Gesetz gleich.
(2) MÃnner und Frauen sind gleichberechtigt. Der Staat fÃrdert die tatsÃchliche Durchsetzung der Gleichberechtigung von Frauen und MÃnnern und wirkt auf die Beseitigung bestehender Nachteile hin.
(3) Niemand darf wegen seines Geschlechtes, seiner Abstammung, seiner Rasse, seiner Sprache, seiner Heimat und Herkunft, seines Glaubens, seiner religiÃsen oder politischen Anschauungen benachteiligt oder bevorzugt werden. Niemand darf wegen seiner Behinderung benachteiligt werden.

Relevant is (3) so I translate:
No one may be disadvantaged or favoured because of his gender, ancestry, race, language, motherland, land of origin, faith/religion, religious or political "ideology". [...]

There is simply no way for a university to charge a foreign student for a service a german student is not charged for. The only way would be to introduce some complex legislation e.g. requiring that a student had done a social service or military service and balancing that for foreign students with payments.

That said, ofc it was possible - and likely still is - to charge everyone after the tenth semester a fee for not finishing his studies in time. Here now you could invent "laws" how to get exempt from that obligation and make the way of getting that exempt so complicated that foreigners have difficulties to get approved.

Anyway. We also have private universities, that charge fees. Regardless if you are german or a foreigner.

We had cost free universities till roughly 2000, then they suddenly changed a lot, now they are changing back.

The treatment for foreigners was always the same as for germans. Not surprising: 90% of the foreigners are foreigners from other EU countries.

Re:Education

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe Germans would re-think that decision if they had to pay a realistic sum for their own civil defense rather than rely on the US and NATO.

Oh I love how this argument always comes out when it comes to how one country manages to do something different compared to the US.
For all the bullshit spewing about how the US "protects everyone else in the world and you would all be fucked without us", you folks certainly let Ukraine down.

Re:Education

[Anonymous Coward]

"Protect your People" That's rich. Since when is Germany facing a problem of not protecting their people? I don't see anyone even threatening to invade German territory.

If you think that America spends all it spends on armaments because it wants to protect its people, then try to actually cut the funds for an arms system that is not necessary to protect the USA. You will find an army of lobbyists and politicians that will fight your tooth and nail to keep companies from removing jobs from their respective districts. The massive military we carry is about money.

Re:Ob

[ganjadude]

the funny thing is the people who complain about this (rightfully so) are the same ones that would call me a racist for saying learn english here in america

Re:How can they afford it?

[antiperimetaparalogo]

If DeVry's Master of Finance program allows resits, you should look into it. Because you appear to have debtors and creditors the wrong way round.

You aren't that fucking 7 digit windbag who goes on about Aristophanes, are you?

It is Antisthenes, not "Aristophanes" - and no, he is not me, i always post with my pseudonymous 7 digit account, plus i made many comments recognizing Greeks as debtors and Germans as creditors!

But since you mentioned Aristophanes: The young and immature will get old and mature, the uneducated can be educated, and a drunk will get sober, but stupidity lasts forever...

Re:Ob

[nbauman]

Why? I didn't speak a word of Spanish when I came to study engineering in Madrid, and I didn't speak a word of German when I came to work in Stuttgart. 10 years later, I'm fluent in Spanish and German.
I need human contact with native speakers (and beers, lots of beers!) in order to learn a language.

It's a lot easier to learn German from a German girlfriend than it is to learn it from Berlitz.

Re:Education

[nbauman]

This simply isn't true. People come to the US all of the time, and get their education...then move back to their country of origin and work there.
Sure, not Everyone moves out of the US after studying here...but they're not forced to. And the taxes you're paying for all that FWEE education come from the working residents of Germany, from whom you'll have to continue to pilfer to fund this Utopian solution.

FTA:

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazi...

Research shows that the system is working, says Sebastian Fohrbeck of DAAD, and that 50% of foreign students stay in Germany.

"Even if people don't pay tuition fees, if only 40% stay for five years and pay taxes we recover the cost for the tuition and for the study places so that works out well."

Re:How can they afford it?

[angel'o'sphere]

Most students tend to study locally, so generally there are no dorms.
Wrong in both.
Most students used to study where ever the "student distribution system (ZVS)" placed them. Or they study where according to their school grades they believe they get the best education. Perhaps 50%, as far as I have experienced in Karlsruhe, far less, study locally.

Dorms, that is a special US thing. Most Europe has no such thing. However the equivalent of a "Dorm" is a "Studentenwohnheim". Special ways of housing for students only where people have a single room apartment with a central kitchen for like 5 to 10 rooms, a pub in the basement or on top of the house etc.

You don't "know that" because those "Dorms" are not on the campus but distributed all over the city.

Karlsruhe has 6 majour ones, with roughly 1000 places each. However Karlsruhe also has about 10 universities. Students from any university may live in any "Studentenwohnheim".

hoping for the experience of the "college life" will be disappointed if they go to Germany.
Perhaps, but I don't think so. The german student life is partly centered around "Studentenwohnheim" if you live in one or ordinary cheap pubs, so called "Studentenkneipen".
However I grant you that the universities themselves don't offer a big "plan of living and social life", but there are plenty of student organizations you can participate in.

Re:Ob

[JustNiz]

>> Well, Germans should learn English, as should everyone else.

As an Englishman living in the USA I can't agree more. Americans are at the top of the list of nations that need to learn English :-)

got my masters in Germany

[bkmoore]

I got my masters degree at the Technical University in Ilmenau. Ilmenau is a small university with very good reputation in central Germany. I did my degree and thesis in German, full immersion. Before that, I got my B.Sc. at the University of CA in Irvine (UCI). I had the GI bill and could have attended any U.S. public university tuition free. I went to Germany because I wanted to. Even without tuition, I still had to pay for living expenses, books, supplies, etc. and had a work permit so I could work part-time to make ends meet.

Having experienced both systems, I would say that the academics were comparable. I think the choice of where to study depends on whom you want to meet and what kind of career you would like having afterwards. The U.S. is closer to a lot of the innovation in computer science, so if striking it rich at the next big thing in Silicon Valley is your ambition, you could probably get better contacts at an American University. Germany has a more traditional industrial economy, a lot like the U.S. was before about 1970. Germany designs, develops and makes a lot of their own stuff. Studying in Germany helped me gain a lot of invaluable contacts in the German "Mittelstand" or mid-sized industry. Germany is one of the few places that still combine product development and manufacturing under one roof and there are a lot of advantages to the 'old-school' way of doing business. It might not be as sleek as "designed in California, made in China" but it's the best way to ensure consistant quality, especially in more complex, safety-critical industries.

Show some courtesy to the locals

[perpenso]

For instance what does she do when she needs to ask about/buy something in a store or whatever?

For my travels in Europe, including Germany, I made sure to at least know how to say hello, thank you, please, water closet and beer (the essentials) in the local language. I never really needed any more than hello. Whenever I walked into a shop or restaurant and said hello in the local language the other person smiled and started speaking to me in English. Exceptions were rare, although admittedly I was generally in the larger cities. And for the exception, a very small clothing shop near my hotel in Paris where I needed a belt (forgot to pack one) hand gestures worked just fine.

My understanding is that many Europeans speak English to each other when traveling. And that there is a bit of a generational component to it, the "younger" generations being more likely to speak English to some practical degree. I suspect that an American traveling in Europe needs only to show the some courtesy to the locals -- ex saying hello, please and thank you in the local language -- and they will find plenty of English speaking employees willing to offer their products and services.

Personal observation: if a bar is not terribly busy the bartender may be a valuable resource in getting the pronunciation of key words and phrases correct. A bartender in Prague was of great help to me with Czech.

Re:Ob

[perpenso]

Perhaps America would be better off if we required all students to learn another language.

It seems pointless. I had a few years of Spanish in high school. While driving through Mexico we were on a desert highway, hundreds of miles south of the border, hadn't seen anything for many miles. A lone gas station becomes visible and we decide to stop. The driver had taken French in high school so I talk to the attendant and ask for a fill of unleaded gas. He repeats my request in perfect English to confirm. Seriously, the gas station attendant hundreds of miles from the border in the middle of nowhere spoke better English than people who grew up around me in California.

As I mentioned in another post, when traveling in Europe it seemed unnecessary to know anything beyond hello in a local language. When saying hello in the local language its as if the clerk, attendant, hostess, waiter, etc thinks "oh, its one of the polite Americans, I'll answer in English rather than pretend we have a language barrier". This really saps the motivation for learning anything beyond hello, please and thank you. :-)

It was already low before

[aepervius]

I mean i recall paying like something 500 DM for a year ? And that was in the end of the 90ies. Same in France a bit earlier, mod 90ies. Tuition fee /admin fee have always been very very low in west Europe, so we never really can grasp how you, living on the other side of the pond, can be buried in student loan. I had more cost staying in a low rent flat (25 m^2 on my own for 200 DM, later in a university communal apartment for student 12 m^2 - 150 DM about 75$ + 5 or 10 DM per month for university high speed internet) than in tuition. Heck food was higher cost than tuition.

Re:Ob

[angel'o'sphere]

Sigh ....

Sometimes you write something that half makes sense. But this again ... (shake heads).

Well, Germans should learn English, as should everyone else.
English is the first foreign language germans learn since 75 years. However since about 10 - 15 years parents can chose for french (surprise our neighbour country is France!) and meanwhile also for other languages as "first" language. Learning english is mandatory. More or less all over the world.

We have 11 aircraft carriers, Germany has none.
Yes, because before the "reunion" and the peace treaty (you know the peace treaty after WWII was crafted 1990? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T...) Before that Germany was not allowed to own/build/operate carriers or any other war ship above 5000 tons.

The US Dollar is the world reserve currency, the German Euro is not.
Neither is. The "reserve currency" is gold. Since oil is traded for Euros equally as for dollars, no one is holding money reserves in dollar anymore (that started around 1987 ... you live in a delusional history world).

Countries like Switzerland, Japan or Saudi Arabia have their "reserves" in Euros and Dollars, more or less 50 / 50 with a noticeable sland towards Euros.

Re:Ob

[angel'o'sphere]

But only because you sucked at maths and physics. :-)
Nice joke. But wrong. You can not get rid of both languages in the end of high school. And it has nothing to do with other topics at all.

Re:Ob

[haruchai]

A well-traveled friend who speaks several languages fluently says you can't learn proper Russian without staying out late at night drinking vodka.

Re:Ob

[dywolf]

standard generational assimilation profile:

1st generation (immigrant): speaks mother tongue
2nd generation: bilingual
3rd generation: speaks major language of country

but looking through your post history, your grasp of facts or history isnt as strong as your racism, so you may struggle to understand this.