Slashdot Mirror
Samsung Cripples Windows Update To Prevent Incompatible Drivers
jones_supa writes: A file called Disable_Windowsupdate.exe — probably malware, right? It's actually a "helper" utility from Samsung, for which their reasoning is: "When you enable Windows updates, it will install the Default Drivers for all the hardware no laptop which may or may not work. For example if there is USB 3.0 on laptop, the ports may not work with the installation of updates. So to prevent this, SW Update tool will prevent the Windows updates." Too bad that the solution means disabling all critical security updates as well. This isn't the first time an OEM has compromised the security of its users. From earlier this year, we remember the Superfish adware from Lenovo, and system security being compromised by the LG split screen software.
You've got to be fucking shitting me?
- Dan
Samsung: You're terrible programmers!
Microsoft: No, you are terrible programmers!
Kids, kids, you'really both terrible.
(-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
So, basically they have shit hardware or shit drivers, and the only way they can think of to fix this is to prevent your operating system from trying to apply updates?
This sounds like incompetence all the way around, and is on-going proof of why I hate OEM laptops. Because they fill them with so much garbage.
It seems like every time I hear anything about Samsung, I find myself thinking "nope, I would never buy their crap".
And, once again, corporations put their own crappy "innovation" ahead of the needs of their customers.
Pathetic.
Lost at C:>. Found at C.
If true then I guess I won't be buying any Samsung computers anytime soon. A company that stupid simply isn't worth doing business with. Add this to the Samsung TVs that listen to your living room and the bloatware on their Android devices and I pretty much can't see any reason to buy from Samsung these days.
Yes, this is ugly situation, but I am curious if this is caused by non-compliant hardware or driver's issue?
*cough*
This is not malicious. It is stupid and ignorant, but not malicious.
This reminds me of when someone got Verisign to issue a signed certificate saying "microsoft.com". Clearly Verisign, and not MS's, fault.
It turned out Microsoft could not issue a revocation, because Internet explorer does not check CRLs. MS's fault, right? Wrong. They were not testing CRLs because verisign would not bring up the web server that issues them, causing each and every SSL connection to time out. MS preferred, reasonably IMHO, to be insecure over not working.
Shachar
Disabling windows update - at least automatically - is a good idea.
It kept installing that reminder about Windows 10 coming soon.
I don't want Windows 10 - I hear it disables some critical software (Solitaire)
Well, I could tell you, but I don't think you'll like the answer... *hands over robes, a candle, and a copy of "Jobs"*
I've lost track of how many times I've been burned by a driver update from Microsoft that turned out to be incompatible with my hardware, likely because Windows Update misidentified my hardware as compatible with the driver. I no longer install any drivers through Windows Update, but instead go to the vendors sites and get them straight from the source.
Fortunately, the drivers are always optional updates, so you can just flag them as hidden and ignore them.
I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
I've had bad days when Windows decided it knew better about video drivers than a popular GPU vendor, and I ended up in a BSOD loop. I had to go into safe mode and roll back updates before I could get the thing to cooperate.
I'm sure Microsoft has quite nice support services to help OEMs to make their computers work as nicely as possible with Windows. Samsung just didn't bother to have proper communication with Microsoft to get this worked out smoothly.
You know, or you could save your work instead of just leaving it open forever and hoping the computer doesn't shut down or restart for some reason.
I'm trying to calculate just how much Kool-Aid you have to drink until "the OS decided to reboot all on its own" becomes acceptable behavior.
I've lost track of how many times I've been burned by a driver update from Microsoft that turned out to be incompatible with my hardware
That's odd. The last time I had such troubles was around Windows XP and I fiddle with a lot of different computers and setups.
It would've been far simpler and less controversial for Samsung to just turn off the Windows 8/10 equivalent of Windows 7's "[right click on your computer's icon]->Device Installation settings->Do you want Windows to download driver software and realistic icons for your devices" option in the "Devices and Drivers" control panel and provide their own "driver update" program. I don't have a Samsung, for all I know, they may already have a "driver update" program. I know at least 2 major Windows-PC vendors do have their own "update" programs that include alerting users when their drivers are out of date, and it wouldn't surprise me if Samsung was doing the same.
Given what Samsung is doing, if Samsung provides its own "Samsung Update" that (by default) automatically takes all critical Microsoft Updates and which at least gives the user the option of taking vetted non-critical updates (or even better all Windows updates EXCEPT conflicting driver updates) AND keeps this running as long as Microsoft continues to allow access to its "Windows Update" functionality (which is presumably longer than the "10 years" it promises to keep fixing security holes) then I can see this being "not all that dangerous." However, if they do this they need to make it VERY clear to the buyer that Samsung, not Microsoft, is taking responsibility for keeping the operating system up to date.
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
Unfortunately, not all driver updates fall under the optional updates. I agree that most are, but I had a client come to me saying his wireless driver was "missing". It was installed, but non-functional. Oddly, it didn't show a "failed to start" yellow triangle or any other anomalies in the device manager. I rolled back the driver and checked Windows Update to find an "Intel Centrino Wireless-N" critical update. It kept installing automatically until I hid the update. It is rare that this happens, but does from time-to-time.
And to think, their hardware is still better than most out there.
If there hardware requires weird non-standard drivers and disabling updates to work then it is by definition crap hardware. Maybe the hardware is fine and they are incompetent at software but that is not the most likely explanation. There would be no reason to disable Windows Update if the hardware worked as expected.
They still get the fewest complaints on NewEgg for much of their stuff for a reason.
Popularity and an alleged low number of complaints on NewEgg hardly constitutes proof of quality. If we are going by anecdotes the few pieces of Samsung hardware I've owned have been pretty much crap. Does that mean all Samsung products are junk? Of course not. But when I hear about them doing something so obviously stupid as disabling the standard OS update because it doesn't work with their hardware then I regard that as prima-facie evidence that their products are crap.
I bought a Samsung laptop. i5, 6gb ram, Hybrid NVIDIA and Intel graphics, 750gb HDD, DVD burner. It is light, well powered and cost efficient back in 2011. Windows 7-64 bit. Problem is: Even the keyboard hotkeys such as screen brightness, WiFi, etc. work only through a "Control panel" that takes ages to load. Volume keys don't work within a game and sometimes the trackpad stops working after sleeping. And also I don't dare installing Linux on it because I read about severe cases of linux bricking the UEFI and rendering the laptop completerly useless.
Alas, after you start it up (either from off or sleeping) and wait the 10-15 minutes for the HDD to calm down (after stripping down the startup, defragmenting, ccleaner and the such) it runs really well.
If I allow Windows Update to "update" the driver for my Bluetooth stick, it doesn't work any longer.
I've seen that problem before on a Bluetooth stick. The real issue was that I had purchased some Chinese ripoff clone of another product (I didn't know at the time that's what I was doing. We learn.); and the original company had released updated drivers to Microsoft. These new drivers worked just fine with the oem product, but something in the ripoff product didn't work with the new drivers, and the stick stopped working. I had to back the drivers out, re-install the original drivers and mark that particular update as "do not install".
I've no idea if the original company (who had their gear ripped off) spiked the driver deliberately or simple broke it by accident.
Disabling windows update - at least automatically - is a good idea.
Maybe for a corporation with an IT staff. If you are like me and have to support small numbers of technologically illiterate people then automatic updates are a blessing. Otherwise those machines would literally never get updated. Ever.
Though honestly as the designated family techie the best thing (for my sanity) I ever did was move my parents to Apple products. Not so much because I think they are inherently better but they do result in less tech support problems (for me) and I got them support contracts (1on1 and Applecare) so Apple can and does deal with the majority of their technical issues rather than me. When my dad was on Windows I'd get at least 2-3 calls a month about something not working. Now I get maybe 1 call every 6 months and it's usually much easier to resolve.
Linux might have some slight incompatiblity with an ever shrinking list of now obscure hardware. But when it works, it works. There is nothing this fucked up about linux drives. At worst, a few of them simply don't have the features we'd like, but nothing catastrophic.
Can someone please tell me what this means? I cannot parse this phrase.
Probably a typo, and should read "all the hardware on my laptop"?
Jumpstart the tartan drive.
You're not alone, I have no idea what it's supposed to mean either.
Get free satoshi (Bitcoin) and Dogecoins
Years ago I learned never to trust MS with hardware updates. Don't know how many times a graphic card or lan update from them pretty much disabled the graphics card or lan.
Wuddooeyeno? IITYWYBMAD? Like nuts? eclecticallyincorrect.com
It's this meme: http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/...
I don't think it really applies here though.
I could have sworn MS had some way for OEMs to get drivers certified, and provided by Windows Update directly...
- chrish
Surely there must be a way to have avoided this.
Maybe Microsoft should set up some kind of... Lab. To certify the Quality of Hardware for Windows. And maybe they could make it really simple for vendors like Samsung to send them copies of drivers for certification so that Windows Update would be aware that they existed.
And maybe, instead of demanding millions of dollars in fees for this service, they could charge something simple up front like just $250 and then not cause any more problems. Then Samsung would have been able to run through a quick certification process and avoided all of this trouble.
Man, why does Microsoft make it so hard for vendors to get their devices supported?
That would be when you click the "No, not now! I'm in the middle of giving a presentation to the board!" button, and then it responds with "Well, FINE. I'm tired of waiting and next time I WON'T ASK YOU."
Or when you don't respond quickly enough and it takes your lack of response as consent.
And then it decides to reboot on its own.
I should save my VMs and shut them down when I'm not directly monitoring the screen of my host OS to catch a random reboot due to updates every once in a while?
Boy, this takes the cake.
The other half of the problem is Windows with its crappy drivers, bloatware and backwards compatible garbage.
There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
This is not malicious. It is stupid and ignorant, but not malicious.
Sufficiently large values of stupidity asymptotically approach maliciousness. In other words if the action is dumb enough there is no effective difference.
Well there's certainly a prominent example of a company taking explicit aim to *break* knock-off devices in a driver update:
http://arstechnica.com/informa...
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
I agree, the HP machine I had years back was decent. Their tech support, on the other hand, is hilariously incompetent to the point of negligence, by which I mean, something broke under warranty, I called them, they insisted not only that I didn't have a warranty, but that the machine (which I purchased directly from them not a year earlier) didn't exist and never had. Took hours on calls (mostly on hold) to get them to admit otherwise. Never buying an HP consumer machine ever again. (And the machine wasn't even amazing, just decent, given as mentioned, something broke and required repair about a year in, and it finally died permanently after about 4 years. My new machine, an MSI, is going strong almost 5 years after purchase; the only thing I've had to replace was a keyboard, which was a 10 buck self-install.)
It happened to me with genuine products. Logitech keyboard/mouse that had a bluetooth receiver. Windows 7 decided it should have a new shiny bluetooth 3 driver installed for it which didn't work, which lost you access to the keyboard and mouse. Downgrade and pin, as you say, or disable the bluetooth entirely and have it act just as a keyboard/mouse.
jh
Look at the Vista fiasco. OEMs had to be dragged, kicking and screaming, to the privilege model (which has been in the UNIX world for decades, and was in the Mac world for at least five years) where they don't have all their stuff run with admin rights. Then, when MS added some fundamental security features like ASLR, forcing drivers to be rewritten, OEMs shipped alpha-quality code, then blamed the crashes on MS.
Yeah, I'm rather sympathetic with Samsung here. The actual problem is with idiotic updates that break all the stuff you've finally got fixed from the last time an update broke it.
An update should fix the stuff that's broken, not break the stuff that's fixed.
http://www.geoffreylandis.com
Clevo comes to mind. They are a Taiwan based company, and have produced some very good hardware in the past.
They have a wide range of products to choose from. If you want a Xeon based laptop with three hard disks in a RAID 0/1/5 configuration, they have a model for that, although the battery with something like that is more of a UPS function (lasts ~30 minutes) than something you would use without having it plugged in. If you want an ultralight model, they also have those, and a lot in between.
Enabling automatic updates is a greater security threat than not updating your OS at all.
The risk of data loss due to sudden unwanted restarts is far greater and more real than having an OS that is 2 days out of date
Strictly speaking risk of data loss due ti restarts is not itself a security threat.
In the free world the media isn't government run; the government is media run.
If really worried, do your work in a VM and have something like AutoProtect in VMWare Workstation save a snapshot every few hours. If you go home, find the VM rebooted, it isn't tough to go back to a point in time before the reboot, save one's work then reboot.
If the host machine reboots, it will just suspend the VM before the reboot, so unless one is running an item in real time, the RPO is 0 and RTO is just getting the VM turned back on.
Another option is using WSUS. I have it configured to auto-approve all patches, but if one wants to take the risk at delaying being patched, no machines will reboot until you tell it to.
Finally, you can always set Windows Update to notify you about updates, so you don't get any reboots until you push the button.
No, it isn't fun rebooting, especially when one has been in IT long enough to be proud of system uptimes, but better a low uptime than hacked box, so patches are a necessary evil.
I'm trying to calculate just how much cheap moonshine you have to drink until a prompt where the computer asks if you want to reboot now, or not counts as "the OS decided to reboot all on its own".
Microsoft update WILL reboot on its own. It'll pester you for a few days then it literally reboots your computer without giving you a choice.
In the free world the media isn't government run; the government is media run.
That's certainly not helpful if you want to run Windows, since the windows drivers are buried in this bootcamp nonsense. Could anyone please point me to a separate download location for drivers for e.g. the camera in a polycarbonate 24" iMac?
You can likely use the Freeware (oops, now it's $20, but still worth it!), Pacifist, to extract the iSight Driver from the Bootcamp 1.2 or greater .pkg file (assuming you want Vista or later Windows-Support). It should be the same camera as all of the Polycarbonate iMacs, and in fact, all iMacs up to and including the Late 2009 model.
I had to disable some drivers from updating to keep my computer running. The drivers installed automatically were not only older, they didn't work for my configuration. For most end users an automatically installed update making their computer non-bootable is a huge problem.
That said there have to be a better way to do this, what about a mechanism where an OEM can declare some drivers untouchable for Windows update? Or even making the hardware manufacturers/device driver writers use the existing hardware detecting mechanisms correctly?
Comment removed based on user account deletion
WQHL is another walled garden. A lot of vendor's don't like the Ts&Cs that MSFT has put forward for WQHL certification. Yes, it's sub-optimal but if you're dealing in Windows Drivers, it's the road you must travel on.
If only MSFT would make WQHL certification easier then you'd see more vendors jumping on the bandwagon and having their updates distributed through Windows Update.
Harrison's Postulate - "For every action there is an equal and opposite criticism"
Neither Linux nor FreeBSD were willing to enable ASLR by default and other similar technologies because they broke so much code. OpenBSD came along and did it, took it on the chin, and everyone benefited.
Or a slight variation :
you want to boot your laptop for a presentation in front of a few hundred people.
It's 8:50 in the morning, your presentation is at 9:00.
You get a nice blue screen that tells you "Please wait till 30 updates are installed". Then you get "Please wait till 200000 files are updated".
It often takes more than 30 minutes to do so.
The ACTUAL solution to this is for Samsung to stop buying hardware components from vendors that submit non-working drivers to Microsoft for inclusion in Windows Updates.
Driver updates offered via Windows Update are always listed as "optional". Even with automatic updates enabled they would have to be chosen manually before they would be installed. On top of that, it would be easy to uninstall such an update via "Progams and Features" in Control Panel, or to click on "Roll Back Driver" in Device Manager.
Disabling updates to prevent bad driver installations is both misguided and unnecessary.
Back when the (then) newest version of Windows would reboot when there was a problem instead of giving you a BSOD with the option to kill whatever caused it and try to continue, I had a friend who was a senior developer. He actually insisted that if something went badly wrong, he wanted his computer to reboot right then and there. He didn't care what program had crashed, he didn't want a chance to save his work, he just wanted it to reboot without asking. I never did understand his attitude, but I can only guess that a lot of people must have shared it because there wasn't the type of mass protest that I would have expected. Clearly, when it comes to Windows, spontaneous rebooting has been acceptable behavior for decades.
Good, inexpensive web hosting
die
The real problem is that the systems contain hardware that isn't compatible with the standard Windows drivers yet is still showing up in a way that Windows will think it is and will pull drivers via Windows Update.
USB (even USB 3.0) is a documented standard that is supported out-of-the-box by Windows (and is likely part of the Intel chip-set they are using in the laptop), why would it need special drivers?
or linux, my PC is a tool not a toy
Snowden and Manning are heroes.
or linux, my PC is a tool not a toy
That's a Shame. My PC is a Tool when I need, and a Toy when I want.
Mine runs Unix. Yours doesn't.
But just remember: You started it.
Back in those days, I wouldn't dream of normally running as root under Linux, and neither Ubuntu nor Mac OSX wanted anybody to use an actual root, preferring sudo. My wife had a Windows setup at work, and had to fight IT to get a non-admin account on one of her machines so she could actually test the software she was maintaining under realistic conditions.
"When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
All they needed to do is make sure that their certified drivers are slipstreamed into any updates and not just the MS generic ones.
Paul E. Bahre
it would be very nice if Windows stopped insisting that its driver for "Unknown Device" is up to date, at newest version and doesn't need to be replaced by another driver supplied by the manufacturer. Once new hardware in Windows is recognized as "Unknown Device" it's about impossible to convince Windows to change it to something more reasonable. Remove the hardware, wipe all traces of its past existence from system, install the correct drivers and only then install the hardware.
Seriously, Microsoft, the first this issue appeared was Windows 95. And it still persists!
45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
I can completely understand the logic behind this decision on Samsung's part: my new Lenovo laptop was swiftly rendered unable to connect to the internet because of incompatible driver issues after a cumulative update. My current workaround is to retire the Windows8 system and run linux from a usb.