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Even the "Idea Person" Should Learn How To Code

Posted by samzenpus on from the need-to-know-basis dept.

theodp writes: "A few months ago," writes Steph Rhee, "I was at a dinner with a dozen students and a 60-year-old entrepreneur who made himself a fortune on Wall Street. At the time, I was a junior at Yale and the only person at the table studying a computer-related major. We went around saying what our big dreams were. When I said that I'm studying computer science because I want to be a software engineer and hope to start my own company one day, he said, 'Why waste so many years learning how to code? Why not just pay someone else to build your idea?'" But Rhee isn't buying into the idea of the look-Ma-no-tech-skills "idea person." "We must not neglect the merits of technical skills in the conception of the 'idea person,'" she argues. "What the 60-year old entrepreneur and others of his generation — the people in control of the education we receive — don't realize is this: for college students dreaming of becoming unicorns in Silicon Valley, being an 'idea person' is not liberating at all. Being able to design and develop is liberating because that lets you make stuff. This should be a part of what we see in the 'idea person' today and what it means to be 'right' when designing an undergraduate curriculum."

37 of 217 comments (clear)

  1. useless idea person... by gbjbaanb · · Score: 5, Insightful

    for every 100 "idea" persons there is 1 who not only has the ideas but knows enough that those ideas are sane and sensible. This is why the "idea person" is a fool and treated as such.

    You see these guys on shows like The Apprentice, the ones who have no talent or skills and so have to fall back on their mouths. They're simply salesmen who always get shown up to be useless in the end. Even a true businessman has plenty of skills they have to learn around organisation and management (real skills, not just shouting at people and pretending they know what they're doing).

    So: Idea people, get a clue.There's no easy way to skip the essential steps of truly knowing what you're doing unless you learn those skills.

    1. Re:useless idea person... by jellomizer · · Score: 3, Insightful

      There is value from someone outside the box. Normally I like to work with the lowest ranking person who would be using such a tool. As they are often the ones with the best ideas, because they know what is going on at the detail level. Not some high up Big Picture Idea guy. Who just crams features that may or may not be useful. Also dealing only with techs (unless your product is made for them) can be not productive, as they will normally resolve down to what is easiest to build, because to make a good product, you will sometimes need to push the boundaries a bit more.

      Now that said. Any ideas needs to be balanced with the limitation of technology. I had to once reject a customer who wanted me to make an App to do the following. OCR documents, If the document date (which was not formally standardized, nor was willing to standardize it) was past the data retention period would flag the document to be deleted, as well put them in a work queue for the hard copies to be destroyed. I had to turn them down, because the application was a constant high risk of huge failure. OCR isn't perfect, the fact that the date wasn't standardized made it worse, combined the result is intended to cause data loss means any glitch is a problem. I offered an alternate solution, where when they store the documents they enter the retention date, manually, and if they added a bar code to them it would make the process simpler. However that required too much manual effort. He just wanted to put a stack of documents on a scanner. Scan them and have everything go automatically.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    2. Re:useless idea person... by timholman · · Score: 4, Insightful

      for every 100 "idea" persons there is 1 who not only has the ideas but knows enough that those ideas are sane and sensible. This is why the "idea person" is a fool and treated as such.

      Exactly. Good ideas, even brilliant ideas, are a dime a dozen. It is the execution that matters, and great execution is a very rare bird indeed.

      But once again we see this too-common meme popping up yet again; that everyone should learn to code. I see it at my university, where enrollments in our entry-level CS course are going through the roof. Everyone is taking a programming class because all the talking heads tell them they should.

      Ultimately (IMHO) it's a waste of time and resources. Any moderately intelligent person can be taught to code "Hello World" in any given language, but that doesn't make him a programmer any more that teaching him to shoot a basketball makes him into a professional player.

      Good programmers become "good" by immersing themselves in the language and the problem to be solved. It requires a degree of focus and experience that you won't get from a few simple programming assignments. So what happens if you make your "idea man" take a two-week short course in the fundamentals of programming? He'll write that "Hello World" app, think to himself "Is this all there is to programming?" and become even more dismissive of the profession than he was before.

      If you're going to teach programming, focus your efforts on the people with a genuine interest in the subject. Wasting time and money on people with no real aptitude or interest is like teaching a chimpanzee to pretend to play the piano: it makes for a cute article in the news, but it's no substitute for real talent and ability.

    3. Re:useless idea person... by drinkypoo · · Score: 4, Insightful

      But once again we see this too-common meme popping up yet again; that everyone should learn to code.

      What makes it too-common? I don't see it that often.

      Ultimately (IMHO) it's a waste of time and resources. Any moderately intelligent person can be taught to code "Hello World" in any given language, but that doesn't make him a programmer

      Look, we have this concept of an individual who is "well-rounded" not by accident, but because we have seen that people who know more about more stuff have more intelligent things to say. As it turns out, things you learn in one area often have broad applicability. If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. If you also have a screwdriver, the world looks like a different place. When you have a whole garage full of tools, it looks different again.

      Heinlein had it right when he said that specialization was for insects. Life is too short for anyone to become a master of all trades, but life is too wondrous to restrict one's learning to a single discipline. Live a little. Learn. Experience.

      The value in teaching everyone beginning programming is a lot like the value in teaching everyone a foreign language, or a musical instrument. Not everyone is going to become a master. Many will not even develop competence. But at minimum, they will become more aware of how the world works, and be able to make better-informed decisions. They will actually learn to see things differently and approach things in different ways. They will have a different idea of what is possible than people who don't know what they know.

      TL;DR: It's a waste to try to make everyone into a programmer, but it's not a waste to teach everyone about programming.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    4. Re:useless idea person... by drinkypoo · · Score: 3, Insightful

      And yet, when you look at the stalwarts of today's tech industry, most of them excelled, not because of their technical skills but because of their ideas.

      And yet, when you look at the stalwarts of today's tech industry, all of them excelled in part because of their technical skills, which formed their ideas. Sometimes they lacked the technical ability to carry their ideas to completion without assistance, but that's a mark of every great human endeavor.

      Bill Gates was a programmer, albeit a mediocre one. Steve Jobs was also a bad programmer, and a worse EE... but he could at least build circuits and write code. These people excelled because of their ideas, but their ideas were founded in reality because they did have skills, even if they weren't exceptional in those areas.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    5. Re:useless idea person... by gnasher719 · · Score: 2

      And yet, when you look at the stalwarts of today's tech industry, most of them excelled, not because of their technical skills but because of their ideas. The best technical skills in the world don't mean a thing if you can't envision how to use them for something others want. Put differently, it is a lot easier to teach others to code than it is to teach them to think creatively.

      No, they didn't succeed because of their ideas, but because they managed to put money where their mouth is, and got the finances to turn the idea into something that can be sold.

    6. Re:useless idea person... by Dcnjoe60 · · Score: 2

      Yes, Bill Gates and Steve Jobs knew how to program. They both were mediocre cooks, too, but they didn't become famous chefs because of that. Both Bill Gates, Steve Jobs and many others had a vision of what the technology could do before others around them did and they were able to capitalize on that.

      Another commonality between the two was that they both knew their strengths and weaknesses and surrounded themselves with people who made up for those weaknesses.

      Finally, they both happened to be in the right place at the right time. The tech industry today is very different than in the 1980s.

      Not to dismiss their accomplishments, nor to discourage one from pursuing a CS discipline, but to be successful, in any endeavor, you need capital, vision, hard work and luck. If you are missing one or more of those, it is unlikely that you will succeed, regardless of one's educational background.

    7. Re:useless idea person... by freezin+fat+guy · · Score: 2

      I disagree. I think coders should all be forced to learn to learn the intricacies of investment.

      Because, naturally, there can only be ONE human thinking skill which rules them all, and which people who are gifted in other areas should be forced to struggle through.

    8. Re:useless idea person... by timholman · · Score: 5, Insightful

      TL;DR: It's a waste to try to make everyone into a programmer, but it's not a waste to teach everyone about programming.

      I am the last person to argue against a well-rounded education, or to giving people the opportunity to learn whatever they want. But the idea that "we should teach everyone about programming" is, in my opinion, another example of the educational fad mindset that sweeps through society every few years, i.e. "subject XYZ is so important, that we should make everyone learn about it!"

      Sorry, but I disagree. If you want better-rounded students, make them take more courses in science or mathematics. Make them learn a second language, or learn to play an instrument. Have them take classes in rhetoric, and learn to make presentations in front of an audience. There are dozens of different classical subjects that will do a better job of providing that broad base of experience and knowledge that you'll need as you go through life.

      But programming is too specialized. Now many Slashdot readers will disagree, but most of them think of programming as something so familiar that they can't comprehend why anyone wouldn't see the value in learning about it. Let me provide a different example to illustrate my point.

      Consider: Electronics is everywhere today, embedded in almost everything we use in our work or our entertainment. Since electronics is so incredibly important to modern society, we must encourage every student to learn about electronic circuits. Let's have them all design and build simple electronic circuits. At the very least, let's have them all work with Arduino boards and learn the fundamentals of hardware systems.

      If one were to make that argument, it would be dismissed out of hand, as it would for any one of a hundred other topics that are absolutely integral to a high-tech civilization. Electronics is too complex and specialized; at best you could only provide a cursory experience to students. Would it still be valuable to some of them? No doubt. But does that mean we should make everyone take a class in electronics? Not at all.

      Programming is no different. Learning to program requires learning a considerable amount of syntax to accomplish anything significant, and the "language-du-jour" (do you teach Basic? Fortran? Cobol? Java? C+? Swift?, etc.) changes constantly. So what you wind up with is a cursory exposure to the topic, in a language that may or may even be considered mainstream in five years. It might lead some people to learning more about programming, but does that mean it was the best use of society's limited educational resources, as opposed to a broader instruction in science or mathematics? I would argue "no".

      In the ideal world, we'd all be Renaissance men and women, but in the real world people tend to focus strictly on what interests them, or on what makes money. Educational fads come and go, but they never make much traction against basic human nature. Saying "everyone should learn about programming" is no different.

    9. Re:useless idea person... by Your.Master · · Score: 2

      I learned some very basics about circuits in grade 9 science, which was a mandatory class. You learn about resistors, capacitors, inductors, and make calculations of circuits involving them in DC current. I can't remember if we wired up a breadboard to make lights respond to switches at that time, or if that came later.

      Didn't really dive into AC current calculations until we hit classes that were not mandatory, although of course we talked in broad strokes about it.

      I don't dismiss the electronics course idea out of hand because I think it's a good idea. Op amps are too much, but you can absolutely introduce kids to simple circuits. I don't think it's fundamentally different from introducing kids to basic chemistry or basic biology, both of which only convey the tip of the iceberg to students.

      This said, in elementary school we were exposed to LOGO and the like, and a popular spare time activity was to make "movies" using a simple scripting environment. This was the mid-90s. Honestly I think basic programming is easier to teach than electronics, having had experience with both. It's also more easily "gamified" such that even some students that would never want to program in their spare time, get into it.

      It's almost entirely irrelevant what language they are taught in. You really just need loops and branching to give the idea.

  2. Seems obvious by asylumx · · Score: 3

    I mean I wouldn't expect a non-engineer to be coming up with great ideas for space travel, either. Wild ideas only rarely make it. We hear about stories where those wild ideas from people who have no skill do make it but the vast majority of those wild ideas fall flat.

    1. Re:Seems obvious by jellomizer · · Score: 2

      There is a lot of talk about Thinking Outside the Box. However that is rarely useful, and doesn't happen. I have been credited and celebrated for my out of the box solutions to problems. However they were not really outside the box, just not how things were normally done.
      1. Everyone has a different box to think in. Their experience determines its size.
      2. Many of the ideas may be standard in each box, however some ideas are unique to a box, differences in skill sets determines this.
      3. Fear normally keeps us in following "this is how it is done" method. A new method already exists in someones box, you just need to get them to speak up.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    2. Re:Seems obvious by nine-times · · Score: 2

      I think the bar you're setting for "outside the box" might be too high. It reminds me of when people talk about "originality" in art, and dismiss everything as "unoriginal" because it was inspired by something or other. Set a standard so high it can't be reached.

      I do a lot of what people consider "outside the box" thinking, but in my mind, it's really just "taking a step back". Are we asking the right questions? Are we trying to accomplish the right goal? To give a simple/obvious example, a client says that they want Microsoft Office, but don't have the money to pay for it. If everyone else is scrambling around looking for sales and discounts, then it might be "outside the box" thinking just to say, maybe we should download a copy of LibreOffice, let them test it, and see if it does everything they need. The box you were in was "buying a cheap copy of MS Office", and you thought outside of the box.

  3. As long as they're not forced by Big+Hairy+Ian · · Score: 2

    Great idea but not everyone is cut out for programming. Also if they're going to learn programming it's worth them learning comprehensivley not just doing a bit of Java script as the more they know the better they'll understand what the pitfalls are.

    --

    Build a Man a Fire, and He'll Be Warm for a Day. Set a Man on Fire, and He'll Be Warm for the Rest of His Life.

    1. Re:As long as they're not forced by jellomizer · · Score: 3

      Just like how we are forced to learn how to read, write, and do arithmetic.
      In today's world, everyone should have a basic level of programming skills, I don't think it needs to be comprehensive, but to a level where they can solve simple problems and know where your limitations are. Basic Programming literacy should be at least the following
      IF conditionals (with AND and OR)
      LOOPs
      Varables
      and nesting.

      Mostly a CS101 type of stuff. But that should be generic everyone is taught skills.
      Not so they can grow up to be programmers, and software developers, but as a tool to train their brain in different methods of solving issues.
      We have Liberal Art skills, that gives critical thinking
      We have Mathematics that gives us tools that we can use to solve problems.
      Computer science is actually a good way to glue both together. You want to create, you have an problem, you can use the tools of math in different ways to help create a solution.

       

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    2. Re:As long as they're not forced by 0100010001010011 · · Score: 2

      Not everyone is cut out for making effective Power Point presentations but we got rid of standalone presentation makers years ago. It's what my dad used to do. Now everyone puts together their own presentations (For better or worse). Coding is going to end up being the same may.

      You'll have mid level managers that can do it effectively to convey their idea. There will be mid level managers that put together terrible pieces of code.

      My manager learned VBA and uses it for everything. It's gotten to the point where his year end reviews, budget, etc are all one massively interconnected set of spread sheets. But it means he works 1/10th as hard as his counterparts who still do it the old way 'by hand'

  4. I disagree by CustomSolvers2 · · Score: 2

    "Idea persons" should focus on "ideas", on "big pictures", on "marketing perspectives" or on whatever they do; and let programming and taking care of making-things-work side of things to engineering-minded people.

    Although having some programming knowledge does seem a good complement for anyone's education (like maths or history), transmitting ideas like "anyone can code, because it is very easy" is not good to anyone (equivalently to what happens with most of lies). Logically anyone can become a programmer, but having certain attitude and knowledge is required.

    --
    Custom Solvers 2.0 = Alvaro Carballo Garcia = varocarbas.
  5. Listen to the old guy by rfengr · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Listen to the old guy. He will retire early with a nice nest egg. That beats being a coding wage slave. Also shows you the 0.1%'s perception of CS people; you are just labor to be used, in the grand scheme of things.

    1. Re:Listen to the old guy by Kester1964 · · Score: 2, Informative

      Here are some engineers who became very rich. They needed investors to start the company and through that company's success become investors in new companies.

      Would that 60 year old entrepreneur have the vision these guys had to not only get rich, but make things and have helped shape the world we live in today

    2. Re:Listen to the old guy by gweihir · · Score: 3, Insightful

      And in the process, he will have had a massive negative influence on society. Too many like him and everything collapses.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    3. Re:Listen to the old guy by Bengie · · Score: 5, Interesting

      There is an over-abundance of mediocre programmers, making them easily replaceable.There is very high demand for programmers, just not of the mediocre variety. Where I work, the problem domain is complex enough that we have about a 1 year learning curve before a programmer brings in a net profit. It takes us 6 months to a year to find a new programmer. We're specialized enough that both Google and Microsoft have partnered with us so we can help them.

      Finding good programmers is hard.

    4. Re:Listen to the old guy by Viol8 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      "A Cloud infrastructure is more fault tolerant and has less single point of failures then a mainframe."

      Really? How many times has Azure gone done now? Mainframes are built to be resilient - they have to be as most of them need to run 24/7/365 for decades at a time. When a major bank decides to run its back end processing systems on a "cloud" service then I might sit up and take cloud systems seriously.

      "So they are not passing down their wisdom and training replacements, but staying in the job until they die, leaving a gap that is hard to fill. "

      If the old guy is doing something like COBOL which the younger coders don't want to learn then whats the alternative?

      "By the time you peak in your career, you should be working on a succession plan, trying to get the new guys to work with you, "

      Don't be daft. Its not the coders job to sort out training for his potential replacement, thats up to company management to arrange it. Most coders I know have enough on their hands just trying to meet deadlines without being some sort of kiddy coder support service.

  6. Or maybe it is a burden... by QuietLagoon · · Score: 2

    ...Being able to design and develop is liberating because that lets you make stuff..../quote> That citation comes from a person who does happen to find it liberating to be able to design and develop.

    .
    What if a person does not find that liberating but burdensome? Why push someone to do something they find to be burdensome?

    This article looks like a case of I like it, therefore everyone likes it.

  7. Ideas are overrated by X10 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Ideas are heavily overrated. It's the execution that makes the difference.

    --
    no, I don't have a sig
  8. Very finance specific by Errol+backfiring · · Score: 4, Interesting

    a 60-year-old entrepreneur who made himself a fortune on Wall Street

    The con, sorry, finance industry is one of the few areas where sane thinking only leads to people jumping ship instead of production. In real professions, you'd better know what you are talking about.

    I always wonder how anyone with more than a half brain cell can work in the finance industry and still look at himself in the mirror each morning.

    --
    Nae king! Nae laird! Nae yurrupiean pressedent! We willna be fooled again!
    1. Re:Very finance specific by gweihir · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I always wonder how anyone with more than a half brain cell can work in the finance industry and still look at himself in the mirror each morning.

      Apparently, 1 in 100 persons is a psychopath. In the finance industries, among CEOs, military leaders and politicians, that rate is much worse. And there are always the narcissists, the authoritarian followers and the plain stupid. How do you think "they" get anybody to fight wars, to spy on everybody, etc.?

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    2. Re:Very finance specific by Viol8 · · Score: 2

      "How do you think "they" get anybody to fight wars, to spy on everybody, etc.?"

      Well its a good thing that someone is willing to fight wars and undertake spying or we'd all be speaking german and goose stepping to work. Yeah I know, Godwin etc, but in this case its a valid counterpoint.

    3. Re:Very finance specific by westlake · · Score: 2

      I always wonder how anyone with more than a half brain cell can work in the finance industry and still look at himself in the mirror each morning.

      One of the least attractive qualities of the geek is his readiness to denigrate skills he doesn't have and doesn't understand, marketing and finance being among the most obvious.

    4. Re:Very finance specific by drinkypoo · · Score: 2

      Well its a good thing that someone is willing to fight wars and undertake spying or we'd all be speaking german and goose stepping to work.

      Political skullduggery led to WWI led to WWII. So no, without people willing to fight wars and undertake spying there would never have been a WWI, let alone a WWII.

      Yeah I know, Godwin etc, but in this case its a valid counterpoint.

      No, because it's not even a valid argument.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    5. Re:Very finance specific by blue9steel · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I'm pretty sure that was a comment on morals rather than skill difficulty.

    6. Re:Very finance specific by gweihir · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The psychopaths are not enough to start wars. For that they need the stupid, the narcissistic and the authoritarian followers.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
  9. What an idiot by Calavar · · Score: 2

    Bill Gates, Mark Zuckerberg, Larry Page, Sergey Brin -- none of them knew how to code, right?

  10. Re:fuck that - do something worthwhile by Required+Snark · · Score: 2

    Why are you posting on Slashdot when you clearly should be living off the grid in a mud hut in the middle of nowhere. Even better, if you were in a mud hut off the grid we wouldn't have to put up with your drivel.

    --
    Why is Snark Required?
  11. Edison Exemplar by ZecretZquirrel · · Score: 2

    Thos. Edison was an archetype of the innovative entrepreneur, and he was not a "idea person". He was a relentless prototyper, experimenter and learner.

    Learning by doing is essential. Ideas have to be generated, tried and qualified (and mostly rejected) by doing, not just thinking.

  12. That's the truth, and it sux. by AndyKron · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Being able to design and develop is liberating because that lets you make stuff like flashing sequins sewn into a shitty sweater you got at Goodwill because you're too fucking poor to buy anything else. That's the truth, and it sux.

  13. When they get rude by Atrox666 · · Score: 2

    When people hear that I can program apps I often get hassled by someone who of course has the next multi million dollar idea. I'm not interested but they rarely take no for an answer.

    I've said directly to people that if I'm smart enough and disciplined enough to actually build an app chances are I'm smart enough to have 5 ideas better than theirs and if they really were smart then I'd be happy to recommend a book. People think there is some idea shortage out there. I like asking them about their "spec" because they almost never have anything but vague bar room banter and haven't even thought that out particularly well.

    Reading makes their lips tired and no one ever takes me up on the book recommendation. Most apps pitched are already out or are outside the physical abilities of the phone.
    Maybe it's because I'm a bitter old man but I love showing them the app they just described and watching their little hearts break.

  14. Yes by American+AC+in+Paris · · Score: 2

    This is a good idea; a deeper understanding of the various roles around you can only improve your own work.

    Similarly, coders should be able to:

    • Read (and write!) a project proposal
    • Successfully explain their work to a room full of non-technical people
    • Interpret a project plan and identify risk points
    • Understand an annual report
    • Grasp basic employment law

    Specialized skills are substantially enhanced by a broader understanding of the organization as a whole.

    --

    Obliteracy: Words with explosions