An Organic Computer Using Four Wired-Together Rat Brains

Jason Koebler writes: The brains of four rats have been interconnected to create a "Brainet" capable of completing computational tasks better than any one of the rats would have been able to on its own. Explains Duke University's Dr. Miguel Nicolelis: "Recently, we proposed that Brainets, i.e. networks formed by multiple animal brains, cooperating and exchanging information in real time through direct brain-to-brain interfaces, could provide the core of a new type of computing device: an organic computer. Here, we describe the first experimental demonstration of such a Brainet, built by interconnecting four adult rat brains."

Comments

What could possibly go wrong?

[random coward]

Really! What could possibly go wrong?

Re:What could possibly go wrong?

[Anonymous Coward]

a version of the matrix/terminator

Re:What could possibly go wrong?

[PolygamousRanchKid]

This was covered in a 70's horror filmed called "Willard": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

Oh, you just can't beat those classics . . .

Re:What could possibly go wrong?

[Anonymous Coward]

This, for a start:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Amazing_Maurice_and_his_Educated_Rodents

(And I'm not referring to the Rodents in the title. If you've read the book, it's a whole different set of rats we should be scared of.)

Re: What could possibly go wrong?

[CurveBall]

Conjoiner rats. That's what.

Re:What could possibly go wrong?

[Anonymous Coward]

I was more thinking 'The Matrix', Maybe Morpheus got it wrong and the real reason for harvesting humans was a form of compute expansion, harvesting the higher-level functionality of living human minds while keeping the lower levels stimulated.

Re:What could possibly go wrong?

[ArmoredDragon]

Maybe skynet actually ran on a Beowulf rat cluster.

Re:What could possibly go wrong?

[Forever Wondering]

Or, try "Donovan's Brain" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

Re:What could possibly go wrong?

[Anonymous Coward]

I was thinking more the Rat King from The Amazing Maurice and his Educated Rodents by Terry Pratchett

Re:What could possibly go wrong?

[iluvcapra]

They remade it in the early aughts with Crispin Glover...

Re:What could possibly go wrong?

[jsilver212]

I have heard that was the original plot idea in the Matrix (using a human mind network for some nefarious computing tasks), but it was changed to the "battery" idea because they didn't think the audience would get it. [citation needed] Anyone have any references of this?

Re:What could possibly go wrong?

[Chikungunya]

This is what came to my mind immediately when reading the title, for both kinds of rats.

Re:What could possibly go wrong?

[phorm]

I thought the plot seemed familiar but I recall seeing it in colour.

Sure enough, there was a remake in 2003.

Is there any old movie that HASN'T been remade? Maybe some Chaplin films?

Re: What could possibly go wrong?

[savuporo]

Typical demarchist response.

Re: What could possibly go wrong?

[BarbaraHudson]

That skynet would be a lot easier to defeat because it blends.

Re:What could possibly go wrong?

[DroolTwist]

Maybe skynet actually ran on a Beowulf rat cluster.

In this case, wouldn't it be a Beowolf cluster?

Re:What could possibly go wrong?

[gstoddart]

Why, no. It would be a Beorat cluster.

Do try to keep up. ;-)

Re:What could possibly go wrong?

[Number42]

I'm pretty sure one of the comics kept the idea.

Re:What could possibly go wrong?

[Anonymous Coward]

I always thought he was oversimplifying when he pulls out the battery. Seeing Neo wake up in the tank in the giant people-farm made me immediately think, "Ooh, he was a processor!" Not, "Ooh, he was providing power...somehow."

Re:What could possibly go wrong?

[Anonymous Coward]

(oh, this is known someplaces, African computers are Africans with all limbs severed and the cranium open to pick up and carry radio signals, babbling what they pick up and make out of it... call it voodoo if you like, but the idea is not unnatural)

Re:What could possibly go wrong?

[Anonymous Coward]

4 Congresscriters brains wired together...
What could go wrong?

Quad core cpu?

[Anonymous Coward]

id make a comment about mice being input devices but this is just rediculos

Re: Quad core cpu?

[goombah99]

From the description is sounds like the monkeys were doing Agile programming.

Re: Quad core cpu?

[Anonymous Coward]

From the description is sounds like the monkeys were doing Agile programming.

similar, but less smelly cages/cubicles.

Re:Quad core cpu?

[Anonymous Coward]

Why can't he be using the same CPU even before looking at his spelling?

Re:Quad core cpu?

[Grizzlysmit]

oh no a computer that eats it's own wiring

Re:Quad core cpu?

[Anonymous Coward]

So this is how the BORG got started. The scientist is Unimatrix One.

Re:Quad core cpu?

[antdude]

Maybe your single core brain needs more cores to fix your grammar issues. :P

Ethics?

[Anonymous Coward]

Anyone?

Re:Ethics?

[Opportunist]

Why do you expect from scientists what politicians and economists dumped ages ago? Get with the times!

Re:Ethics?

[Duhavid]

Anyfour.

Humor aside,there are serious ethical issues here.

If an alien race as much above us as we are above rats were to come here and began to use Humans in like manner, how would we react/feel/moralize?

Re:Ethics?

[random coward]

Well at least they didn't use human brains. Although I expect I should add Yet to the statement....

Re:Ethics?

[Anonymous Coward]

The human race, in overwhelming majority, accepts the killing and/or use of animals for various purposes. We do this because they can't fight back. We are apex predators.

Should aliens come and do the same to us, c'est la vie. You win some, you lose some.

Consistency is the primary virtue of ethics. If you're unhappy with that, perhaps you should re-examine your position and admit to yourself that you don't really hold a given position. Hypocrisy is a primary evil.

Re:Ethics?

[blue trane]

Experiments should require the informed consent of all subjects. Until we can communicate with rats, we should not use them in experiments. Get informed consent from humans. If you can't, then do a non-destructive experiment, a simulation. Do not use live creatures without their consent.

Re:Ethics?

[nine-times]

Well maybe they could also put our brains into a kind of simulation, so that we didn't know that they were using us in this way. Like we could be sitting in little pods, wired up to drive their computing power, while we think we're walking around in the world, living our lives. In that case, we wouldn't feel anything about it.

That is, we wouldn't feel anything about it until Keanu Reeves liberates us using magic kung fu.

Re:Ethics?

[Anonymous Coward]

I am consistent in demanding that other people treat me better than I treat them.

Re:Ethics?

[alvinrod]

I take it you won't be using any antibiotics or other medication anytime soon then. No one seemed to ask those poor bacteria or viruses if they consented. If you have an issue with that, why is your arbitrary line that covers rats any better than the one I've suggested?

Re:Ethics?

[Anonymous Coward]

And that's a perfectly legitimate position to hold. I take no offense at people who have views I disagree with, as long as they stand by them.

It's hypocrites that really piss me off. I suppose you could hold the position that you should publicly support one view and practice another, but then you'd be a politician and I hate them too.

Re:Ethics?

[gurps_npc]

What makes you think aliens aren't doing it already? If they are doing it, we wouldn't care. Because we couldn't notice - anymore than the rats do. Those rats will definitely do a lot better than the rats that I called the exterminator on last week.

The main problem with your argument is that you are granting greater capabilities to the rats than they have. I'm not talking about hypothetical souls, I'm talking about comprehensive power. The rats are not smart enough to understand any of what we are proposing doing to them.

Secondly, as below, as above fails many ways. It is not transitive. Just as humans ascribe greater rights to a intellectually challenged human than we do to mammals and greater rights to mammals than we do to bacteria (you don't hear about bacteria abuse cases), intelligent aliens should grant greater rights a talking, tool using humans than they do to non-talking, non-tool using mammals. If they don't, then they are no better than criminals that abuse animals.

Rights are not an all or nothing affair - they are granted based on various factors, including intelligence.

Re:Ethics?

[Duhavid]

"What makes you think aliens aren't doing it already?"

A La the Matrix? Perhaps.

"If they are doing it, we wouldn't care."

Once we knew, we would care.

"Because we couldn't notice - anymore than the rats do."

They don't? How do you know?

"Those rats will definitely do a lot better than the rats that I called the exterminator on last week."

Not necessarily. Are they confused, frightened, in pain? Dead might be better.

"The main problem with your argument is that you are granting greater capabilities to the rats than they have. I'm not talking about hypothetical souls, I'm talking about comprehensive power. The rats are not smart enough to understand any of what we are proposing doing to them."

Smart is only part of the issue. What about what happens to them as these things are done to them? What do they experience? Are we right in doing it to them? Why is this needed?

"Secondly, as below, as above fails many ways. It is not transitive. Just as humans ascribe greater rights to a intellectually challenged human than we do to mammals and greater rights to mammals than we do to bacteria (you don't hear about bacteria abuse cases), intelligent aliens should grant greater rights a talking, tool using humans than they do to non-talking, non-tool using mammals. If they don't, then they are no better than criminals that abuse animals."

It succeeds in many ways. And why does it have to be transitive.
We do ascribe greater rights as creatures climb in intellectual capability.
Why should that allow us the right to tamper?
And are we being criminals that abuse animals in doing things like this?

"Rights are not an all or nothing affair - they are granted based on various factors, including intelligence."

I see your point. Pain and discomfort and utility to the species being so used should be part of those "various factors".

Re:Ethics?

[Anonymous Coward]

Assuming ethics is a real thing (rather than a convenient fiction), a superior species would probably be superior at ethics as well and would either not do that (if it's unethical) or be able to explain why what they're doing is ethical. At which point if humans don't agree to bad. apparently we're wrong.

Re:Ethics?

[Krishnoid]

If an alien race as much above us as we are above rats were to come here and began to use Humans in like manner, how would we react/feel/moralize?

Well, there's one way to find out -- keep wiring rat brains together until they become smarter than us, give them instructions on human testing, and see what they come up with and how we feel about it.

Get your paws off me, you damn dirty multirat!

Re:Ethics?

[alexgieg]

The line the OP suggested isn't arbitrary, it's pretty objective. Beings with a nervous system and a brain suffer more than beings with just a nervous system, which in turn suffer more than being with mere nociception, which in turn suffer something, compared to being with none of those, who suffer nothing.

Not harming being who can feel excruciating pain would cause our scientific research to stop? No, it'd just advance at a slight slower speed.

So, why then do we harm them? For most people, because we can. And if "might makes right" is what most go with, all the power to them. When the ethics of might eventually bites them back, it's nothing but their own fault.

Re:Ethics?

[Anonymous Coward]

This is a false comparison. Humans have rights because we are capable of understanding them. Animals do not, because they cannot. Aliens who respected rights would respect ours as well, since they would understand that humans use rights to manage social interactions, and mountain lions, etc. do not. Nor rats.

Re:Ethics?

[Anonymous Coward]

If I use your own logic against you: Without communicating with lifeforms who do not have a brain, how do you know they suffer less?

Re:Ethics?

[alexgieg]

There's no channel through which nociception can travel.

Re:Ethics?

[alvinrod]

Suffering is rather subjective and considering that the outcome of a lot of research is the death of the subject, does it matter much whether it was a rat or a paramecium? Neither appear to have shown any sapience so pain is a useless metric unless someone is testing pain responses.

Let's turn the question around and ask how much suffering would you be willing to inflict to rats if it would yield a cure for cancer? Can you contemplate or measure the reduction in suffering that would reduce to humanity? What's 100 years of suffering in millions of rats against the rest of the life of the universe and trillions of humans of suffering prevented?

Obviously we can't know in advance the results of any experiment, but that's what review boards are for. Not every scientist is a Mengele and stopping progress until we have all of the answers is likely objectively worse from the point of amount of suffering inflicted than using animals in laboratory experiments.

Re:Ethics?

[alexgieg]

The problem with this line of reasoning is that it assumes a linear progression in research, when by all measures it seems to be exponential.

From a certain perspective this might seem like the argument works against my point, because the earlier we do something would mean its result would be multiplied by orders of magnitude later on. However, that'd be a stochastic reasoning, because there's a point at which the result was achieved. Therefore, the distinction is between a linear delay vs. an exponential growth.

In other words, if we wait 50 years because we don't want to cause excessive suffering to animals, the trillions of human beings in our future light cone would most probably "feel" it as a delay of seconds, if that much.

IMHO then, reasoning from the perspective of extremely future benefits isn't useful. At most, only the near future is actually affected. And even that might be just a minor delay, since computation and simulated models are themselves advanced so much that in a few years they'll outpace anything doable by directly manipulating living beings.

Re:Ethics?

[CanadianMacFan]

I'm fine with the use of animals in medical research as long as the animals are properly cared for, the minimal number are used, the minimal procedure is used, ethical reviews have been undertaken, the appropriate animals are used, their suffering is minimize, and only when there is absolutely no alternative available. (There's probably a couple more but that's just off the top of my head.) I don't want animal research used for cosmetics, toxicity, or for things just because we can do them. This definitely falls into the last category. This isn't going to help save anyone's life and even if this research were to continue (which I am completely opposed to) it's not like we're going to be building computers in the future by hooking up a bunch of brains together.

Re:Ethics?

[Anonymous Coward]

Humans have rights because a lot of other humans died for those rights, hence it became more productive for those that have all to allow some degree of freedom to everybody else, also for societies that can support it make more economic sense to have a middle consumer class

 

Re:Ethics?

[Anonymous Coward]

>> it's not like we're going to be building computers in the future by hooking up a bunch of brains together

You need to re-watch the Matrix then. ;)

I partly am jesting. But I'm pretty sure there's some truth to that in humanity's future.

Re:Ethics?

[sexconker]

Using consenting humans would be far more ethical than using non-consenting animals.

Re:Ethics?

[sexconker]

There's no channel through which nociception can travel.

You don't know what any being, or any thing, feels or thinks.
In fact, you don't know that anything other than yourself feels or thinks.
There is no physical explanation for the manifestation of consciousness.

Re:Ethics?

[thrich81]

Right now there is a rat infestation in my yard and house. I don't have any ethical issues with getting rid of them by any manner possible. We tried live traps and got one. Next it is going to be lethal traps and poisons and I am beyond caring about whether the lethal traps are painless or not. So ethically, what's the diff between these lab rats and my pests? Just a rhetorical question, as intuitively it seems there is a difference but I can't figure out what it is.

Re:Ethics?

[Anonymous Coward]

Why do you torture plants?

Re: Ethics?

[Anonymous Coward]

Soon you will know: "plug it in, plug it in."

Re:Ethics?

[Anonymous Coward]

Humans understand human rights. Animals understand their own animal rights. Many animals stay out of rivals territories, know how to play together, know when one of them is threatening, know how to show surrender, etc... Animals definitely have social rules. Rules for packs, rules for being on your own, etc... Humans aren't some special beings, we're all just animals with different motivations.

If aliens come, they'll probably have some of their own rights that we won't understand. By your logic, it would be ok for them to wipe us out. But it won't come to that. Once they're able to reproduce the experiment a few times they'll keep moving until up the food chain until we're connecting human brains. Give it 40 years at most. It'll be interesting to connect animal and human brains. Someone will try it.

Re:Ethics?

[Anonymous Coward]

I know for sure you're a fucking retard though

Re:Ethics?

[LesFerg]

I put a trap in my ceiling space to conquer a rat invasion. The first strike was within hours, but the next one I never heard and a few days later when I got up there to check it, there was a scattering of chewed bone pieces around the trap, none larger than a centimetre, and not a trace of anything else, not even fur.
So where is their ethics cut-off, and how to we measure ours against theirs?

Still, I would rather NOT be part of a project which uses coercion (torture?) such as depriving a bunch of rats of water until they do what I want.

Re:Ethics?

[Anonymous Coward]

We would respond violently, of course.

Rats, being far less intelligent, just keep going about whatever they normally do.

This is one of many reason they are selected.

I expect the aliens would choose a more friendly choice for experimentation as well.

Re:Ethics?

[quenda]

Well at least they didn't use human brains. Although I expect I should add Yet to the statement....

You could study rare naturally occurring two-headed humans, with two brains connected at the spine (so one CNS).
They are able to coordinate surprisingly well.
Unfortunately, all anybody seems to care about is their sex life, which is scientifically dull.
(Except for the original Siamese Twins who had 22 kids between them, so must have been doing something extraordinary.)

Re: Ethics?

[AgNO3]

You must hate that plants feel pain and just playing the sound of a caterpillar eating a leaf causes them to react defensively. Look it up.

Re: Ethics?

[Anonymous Coward]

They owe me money, that's why.

Re: Ethics?

[Anonymous Coward]

Animals will have rights the day they learn to use guns and start founding corporations.

Re:Ethics?

[Anonymous Coward]

[...]So where is their ethics cut-off, and how to we measure ours against theirs?

Rats are pretty smart. Maybe they know the trapped rat is suffering. Maybe they care. Maybe they know that eating that rat will cause it to suffer more. Maybe they care about that too. And maybe they know the eaten rat won't give a damn when it's dead.

Re: Ethics?

[Anonymous Coward]

since computation and simulated models are themselves advanced so much that in a few years they'll outpace anything doable by directly manipulating living beings.
 
lol no, fool. Of course im open to an ample peer literature concluding otherwise. Your move, every hour of delay and I torture another babby bunny to death

Re: Ethics?

[alexgieg]

It's always interesting to find someone who doesn't understand the difference between linear growth and S-curved recursive exponential growth, and who also believes in Orgel's Second Rule. Nice try, Anonymous Luddite.

Re:Ethics?

[itchybrain]

Ahem.

A virus is not a living organism.

Re:Ethics?

[Duhavid]

I understand your dilemma.

I think that part of the difference is
    A, the harm they can do to you
    B, the inability to have cooperation with them.

If you could negotiate with them ( stay away from the house, I'll refrain from killing you, maybe spend part of the money saved on traps and poisons on some food, left away from the house periodically ), maybe you would. I would. But, we cant. So, what are our alternatives? Kill them, drive them away, or put up with the damage they do, the harm they can do to us and our loved ones.

All hair our new four-brained overlords!

[Anonymous Coward]

All hair our new four-brained overlords!

Re:All hair our new four-brained overlords!

[johanw]

Why stop at only four? 6 billion minds, all acting as one.

Re:All hair our new four-brained overlords!

[Demonoid-Penguin]

Why stop at only four? 6 billion minds, all acting as one.

A giant King rat?

Excuse me while I squick out for a moment.

[Anonymous Coward]

I tried imagining how they'd do such a thing and what'd it be like for the rats. Ew!

Re: Excuse me while I squick out for a moment.

[tmosley]

Well, they were completing tasks for rewards, so probably not that bad. Worst of it is the electrode implants, which aren't really that bad. Lots of humans have stuff like that.

The linkage is reversable too. Really not that bad. What will be interesting is the human applications once we get non invasive nerve gear. Brain node on an ASI might be an interesting job.

Re: Excuse me while I squick out for a moment.

[weilawei]

You ought to read Hard-Boiled Wonderland and the End of the World by Murakami. I think you would enjoy it.

Quick summary from Wiki:

The story is split between parallel narratives. The odd-numbered chapters take place in the 'Hard-Boiled Wonderland', although the phrase is not used anywhere in the text, only in page headers. The narrator is a "Calcutec", a human data processor/encryption system who has been trained to use his subconscious as an encryption key. The Calcutecs work for the quasi-governmental System, as opposed to the criminal "Semiotecs" who work for the Factory and who are generally fallen Calcutecs. The relationship between the two groups is simple: the System protects data while the Semiotecs steal it, although it is suggested that one man might be behind both. The narrator completes an assignment for a mysterious scientist, who is exploring "sound removal". He works in a laboratory hidden within an anachronistic version of Tokyo's sewer system. The narrator eventually learns that he only has a day and a half to exist before he leaves the world he knows and delves forever into the world that has been created in his subconscious mind.

Re: Excuse me while I squick out for a moment.

[bazmonkey]

They weren't working for rewards. TFA says they were deprived of water until forced to cooperate. I can totally understand animal experimentation for medical advancement (live saved > lives lost). I can even understand killing rats as pest control (those rats in particular need to leave). THIS, however, was purposely acquiring rats in order to perform this test, in which they were indeed threatened with death lest they perform. Disgusting.

imagine

[bugs2squash]

imagine a Beowulf cluster of these...

Re:imagine

[Opportunist]

Does it run Natalie ... I mean, Linux?

Re:imagine

[Anonymous Coward]

no it runs on a hamster wheel.

Re:imagine

[Applehu Akbar]

If I had a Beowulf cluster of these, I would run my own LexisNexis mirror.

Re:imagine

[desdinova 216]

something something hot grits?

Re:imagine

[Dracos]

Ahem, Beorat cluster.

Re:imagine

[Arthur Dent '99]

Better yet, imagine a Beowulf cluster of wolves!

(The Wulfings were a powerful clan in Beowulf, and Wulfings means the "wolf clan".)

Re:imagine

[MrKaos]

• Imagine there's no Beowulf cluster,
• it isn't hardware dude,
• no target architecture to compile for
• and no fanbois too
• imagine all the ratbrains
• computing their little peeeeiicccceee
• - whooohoooo

Re:imagine

[t_ban]

imagine a Beowulf cluster of these...

It's called a law firm.

I for one...

[Anonymous Coward]

.. Welcome our new RatNet overlord.

Mod article

[SeaFox]

+1, Creepy

Re:Mod article

[Type44Q]

There's a special place in hell for those who torture small mammals; it likely resembles the inside of Richard Gere's ass.

Plot of Sci-Fi

[Anonymous Coward]

This is straight from the Psycho-Pass anime. It's the Sibyl system.

Re:Plot of Sci-Fi

[neminem]

It's straight from all sorts of sci-fi - my first thought was Vernor Vinge's Tines from A Fire Upon the Deep (a single Tine has the intelligence of a dog, a half-dozen working together have human-level intelligence, with a spectrum in between), but you could probably find tons of other similar-acting alien life forms in other media, too.

Welcome, Rat Overlords!

[Anonymous Coward]

I for one welcome our hyper-intelligent synchronized-brain rat overlords!

Re:Welcome, Rat Overlords!

[WillAffleckUW]

I for one welcome our hyper-intelligent synchronized-brain rat overlords!

Pinky and the Brain.

I for one ...

[Krishnoid]

Welcome our cute and fuzzy, already pretty intelligent long-tail enabled distributed multiprocessing overlords.

Re:I for one ...

[MightyMartian]

In Soviet Russia, rats' brains you!

Rat-Borg of Nine

[tekrat]

Isn't this how the Borg operate? Collective thought working towards a single goal. Interconnected minds sharing problem solving, which is how they quickly adapt.

I for one welcome our new rat overlords....

Re:Rat-Borg of Nine

[nine-times]

I never thought about it quite like that before, but it makes me wonder: If the Borg operate by using biological brains as processing units, does the nature of the brains have any impact on the outcome of the processing? Like if the Borg assimilated a race with very different brains, might their presence in the collective affect the decisions made by the collective? Could you flood the collective with so many pacifists that the Borg become peaceful?

I guess it applies in real life, to this rat experiment. On either a quantitative or qualitative level, how do the individual rat brains influence the results?

Re:Rat-Borg of Nine

[Anonymous Coward]

Isn't this how the Borg operate?

It's definitely how the Tines operate. Or, I guess, will operate.

Re:Rat-Borg of Nine

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes.

There are a few references to the assimilation of civilizations and individuals changing the Borg overall, and one example where the reintroduction of a Drone who spent some time on the Enterprise resulting an a bunch of drones forming an ascension cult led by Lore.

Re:Rat-Borg of Nine

[dissy]

Going off of TV episodes, some books, and the borg documentary, the borg queen has said on a few occasions that certain species are put to certain tasks to be most efficient.

The Klingons were assimilated for physical strength requiring tasks, not brain/CPU power.

The Voth however were assimilated for their technology (roughly equal to the borg) and their brain power, and used mainly to advance the borgs theoretical physics and such.
The Voth also had transwarp technology independently developed, and while it may have been ret-con'ed in it was stated this is where the borg got it from too.

The Kazon on the other hand were avoided for assimilation completely, as the species was deemed too stupid and incapable for anything, and their very presence in the borg collective took them that much further away from "perfection"

PS, sorry... </nerd>

Re:Rat-Borg of Nine

[Anonymous Coward]

I never thought about it quite like that before, but it makes me wonder: If the Borg operate by using biological brains as processing units, does the nature of the brains have any impact on the outcome of the processing? Like if the Borg assimilated a race with very different brains, might their presence in the collective affect the decisions made by the collective? Could you flood the collective with so many pacifists that the Borg become peaceful?

I guess it applies in real life, to this rat experiment. On either a quantitative or qualitative level, how do the individual rat brains influence the results?

You missed the underlying concept of the Borg.

They're creepy, scary, singularity-convergent badguys. Also, the idea (within the framework of the series,) was that they were from their own perspective, the next logical step in evolution; you could look at it as an experiment. If they're right, and working in this way makes them able to out-compete other organisms for resources, they'll be ABLE to out-compete them for resources, demonstrated practically when they DO out-compete them for resources.

Their existence is an acid-test of the idea that theirs is a better model, or paradigm, and by the time they encounter the UFP, (represented by the Starship Enterprise in the first episode of the new series when it first came out,) it had kind of grown out of control, to fill the available niche in the universe, which is the state of development we see them in when they're introduced. In fact, it pretty much follows the model of biologists whose name I can't recall just now, but the idea is that a species expands to fill the available niche, taking up all available resources, unless and until controlled by external, (natural) forces such as predation by other species, or starvation or lack of needed territory. These forces apply sufficient downward pressure on the population to check its expansion, stabilizing the size of the population.

(Agent Smith got it wrong when he told Morpheus in "The Matrix," that every species (other than man,) inherently strikes a balance. He ultimately compares humanity to a virus... but this idea flies in the face of hundreds of years of biologists' studies. But it sounded COOL! In reality, every species tries to make as many copies of itself as it can, as indicated by what happens when a new species, often called an invasive one, is introduced to an environment. It competes if it can, and if possible, carves out a niche for itself, either alongside others, or if they're better than the competition, eliminating them altogether.)

Re:Rat-Borg of Nine

[Anonymous Coward]

The matrix comparison is not only flawed in itself, but the quote you are referencing is provably false in pretty much every way too.

Agent Smith: I'd like to share a revelation that I've had during my time here. It came to me when I tried to classify your species, and I realized that you're not actually mammals.

Funny, I figured the tits were a dead giveaway.

Every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with the surrounding environment; but you humans do not. You move to an area and you multiply, and multiply, until every natural resource is consumed and the only way you can survive is to spread to another area.

That must be why there are no humans living in Europe where they lived hundreds of years ago, because they consumed all the resources and moved on... Oh wait, no that didn't happen, we still live there to this day.

There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. Do you know what it is? A virus.

Last I looked, a human was able to reproduce just fine without taking over and destroying any other host organism.
No virus I know of is capable of reproducing or even replicating (the thing viruses actually do) on their own without such a host.

Yup, identical!

Re:Rat-Borg of Nine

[Anonymous Coward]

Sky... RatNet

Re:Rat-Borg of Nine

[nine-times]

Don't apologize for a nerdy post. You're responding to a message on Slashdot where someone's talking about Star Trek. It's a little off topic, but who cares? I started it.

I didn't know all of that, since I just watched the series and have not read the books. Mainly, what struck me was an idea that I only mentioned for a second, which was the idea of giving a poison pill to the Borg. That's essentially what they did when they taught individuality to Hugh, which was successful in disrupting the Borg. However, I imagined a scenario for a Star Trek story that presents the following dilemma: The Borg is destroying the Federation and taking over the galaxy, and the only way to stop it is to feed an empathic pacifist civilization to the Borg and hope that their influence becomes significant.

I guess basically it'd be the same concept as Hugh, but on a large genocidal scale. And I suppose you could muddy the waters a bit by saying, "They're in the Borg's path anyway, and all we need to do is just not try to save them."

Anyway, that's what popped into my head, and I thought, "That's fucked up. But I feel like it could make for a good DS9 episode."

Re:Rat-Borg of Nine

[Anonymous Coward]

Evolution has consistently "drifted" (laymen have misread anthro phrasings) into a common optimum, wherein most species are optimal with redundantly excessive offspring. Like GP, I observe this is pretty much every animal, including humans.

These excess are kept in check by limited resources. Sometimes it's a wavering limit, because seasons or because it's pegged to a prey's/predator's population, but births climb until they cause deaths to climb equally.

Humans are doing exactly that, only it's taking a while. Technology keeps pushing the roof, we have developed innumerable techniques to tap any kind of semi-viable resource, and they use themselves to scale up globally.

But obviously there's a limit somewhere. Obviously only so many humans at 2 Kcal/day are possible. It might be trillions (our current output is bubbled, unsustainable) if the affluent quit fucking around with disparity barriers, but there's a limit and when humans reach it, the population will settle, whether by choice or by logistics.

The latter will be uglier, even if you naively pretend it won't involve revolution and war everywhere. We bubbled very hard, and the snap back will plummet the population.

Borg

[Anonymous Coward]

Just add wireless and we're no longer the dominant species.

Re:Borg

[MightyMartian]

We never were the dominant species. I'd say E. coli, or possibly some underground species of Archae are the dominant life on Earth.

Re:Borg

[newcastlejon]

Add another rat and then we'll see.

Re:Borg

[Anonymous Coward]

We never were the dominant species. I'd say E. coli, or possibly some underground species of Archae are the dominant life on Earth.

Ranking by biomass, in the animal kingdom alone insects are more dominate than humans by 10-100 times.

Bacteria (all bacteria taken together that is) has over a thousand times the biomass as humans.

A couple quick Google searches didn't turn up any biomass amounts for E coli specifically, so I can't say for sure, but yes I presume it is safe to say even that one bacterial strain far outweighs humans.

I did however come across this interesting article (if tldr, scroll down to the table):
http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2011/11/03/141946751/along-with-humans-who-else-is-in-the-7-billion-club

Humans:
- Population: 7 billion
- Biomass: 350 million tons

Ants:
- Population: 10 billion billion
- Biomass: 3,000 million tons

Bacteria:
- Population: 4 quadrillion quadrillion
- Biomass: 1,000,000 million tons

Re:Borg

[Anonymous Coward]

Algae, or the micro stuff in the upper ocean layer. Yeah, ants. Bacteria. Roaches. There's room across the niches for some varied forms, but basically the hyperadaptive fuckers are the dominant ones. Though, biomass doesn't directly imply survivability or adaptability coverage or niche range. If there was a massive cosmic radiation wave or a not-graygoo failure or a meteor or a (real) climate upheaval or the air changed, I'd look at the still-moving ashes to name champions.

And while not to be named among the winners, pockets of humans would be around. Not by simian features, no, but you might argue that synthetic adaptions derive from naturally-evolved intelligence.

AC.Falos

how much longer

[Anonymous Coward]

until it starts talking about shinies

End result?

[wb8nbs]

Did it vote Republican?

So Rat Kings exist

[Anonymous Coward]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rat_king_(folklore)

This will be done, says Ship.

[Anonymous Coward]

Read "Destination Void" by Frank Herbert to see some ways this could go haywire.

Re:This will be done, says Ship.

[MightyMartian]

Ah yes, the Organic Mental Cores.

Great novel too.

On Ship's Pandora, Raja Flattery's you!

How long till someone ports Doom?

[Nyder]

How long will it take someone to port Doom on them/it? I'm sure nothing would go wrong with that.

Re:How long till someone ports Doom?

[ameoba]

Quake would be a better option. The original Doom had poor mouse support.

Re:How long till someone ports Doom?

[Anonymous Coward]

Quake would be a better option. The original Doom had poor mouse support.

Poor mouse support indeed! Well done, sir!

Although that does raise the question: should research funding support poor mice, or is that better left to rodent welfare programs? From your position, it sounds as if you're against mouse welfare, though I hesitate to judge... you probably have your reasons.

Re:How long till someone ports Doom?

[Anonymous Coward]

Quake would be a better option. The original Doom had poor mouse support.

The question here is the opposite: if mice has good Doom support or not.

Re:How long till someone ports Doom?

[Anonymous Coward]

Of course it runs RatBSD.

I wonder what its like?

[Anonymous Coward]

Having artificial "thoughts" forced into you brain. Confusion and pain or just total insanity?

Re:I wonder what its like?

[GoonDuIO]

Have you ever had thoughts that make you go, "Where the hell did that come from?" I guess it's something like that. Thoughts that appear out of nowhere and makes you confused. Or it could be like schizophrenia.

MMMM Tastes Like Bacon

[Anonymous Coward]

I swear, if they name it korrok, I'm out.

Because no one of us....

[gestalt_n_pepper]

is as dumb as ALL of us. Now the wisdom of crowds can generate tulip manias faster than *ever* before. What a great time to be alive....

Re:Because no one of us....

[Some nick or other]

Crowds can go very wrong or very right. Sounds like we need some control of chaos to keep the worst of degradation from happening if we start wiring brains together :)

Mad scientists

[Anonymous Coward]

Why don't the heartless scientists just stop torturing and killing animals. This is like the man who kills dogs to transplant their heads, or the US military cutting off the legs of tens of thousands of animals to help train field medics. It is cruel and inhumane.

This is Kiko...

[roman_mir]

Well, you give a monkey a robotic arm and you get Kiko doing whatever Kiko does...

You give rats a computer to command and rats end up using the computer to crawl into a dark place, maybe in search for food.

Of-course it is up to you, as a developer to use the understanding of a rat's mind to apply the rat's way of thinking to solve a problem, but now not only are you a computer programmer but also have to be a rat's psychology expert.... Well, maybe some of us are, given what kinds of people we sometimes have to deal with.

Game inspired research

[Anonymous Coward]

Planescape Torment developers came up with this concept years ago. Individual rats were virtually harmless, but swarm was much more powerful.

Yeah...no

[krray]

I think they crossed the line. Just wee bit. I mean, I'm not a rat lover or anything. But if kept clean, as in a pet, they are pretty damn cute. Smart too. Not as smart as my dog IMHO -- HEY! Let's wire up four dog brains next! Yeah, yeah, that's the ticket. How about a monkey? Why not!

These animals have a consciousness. You can't deny that. No, it is not at the human level, but a life none-the-less. How fucking freaky cruel is it to take a consciousness and tie it together with three others in some form to just see what happens? How freaked out were these rats in their little disembodied brains.

Cruel.

Re:Yeah...no

[Krishnoid]

How fucking freaky cruel is it to take a consciousness and tie it together with three others in some form to just see what happens?

Ask the people who run MMORPGs, I guess.

Re:Yeah...no

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm with you..this is getting up near Josef Mengele type of unethical research...(godwin doesn't apply here kthx).

Re:Yeah...no

[Enigma2175]

I think they crossed the line. Just wee bit. I mean, I'm not a rat lover or anything. But if kept clean, as in a pet, they are pretty damn cute. Smart too. Not as smart as my dog IMHO -- HEY! Let's wire up four dog brains next! Yeah, yeah, that's the ticket. How about a monkey? Why not!

These animals have a consciousness. You can't deny that. No, it is not at the human level, but a life none-the-less. How fucking freaky cruel is it to take a consciousness and tie it together with three others in some form to just see what happens? How freaked out were these rats in their little disembodied brains.

Cruel.

I'm guessing you didn't read the article, the monkeys have already been done:

Nicolelis published a second paper, also in Scientific Reports, describing a Brainet that allows three monkeys connected at the brain to control a virtual arm on screen across three axes.

Halo Jones...

[Dusty101]

... would disapprove.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

Re:Halo Jones...

[mrbester]

"TRUST WE"

People will never need more than 640 wired brains

[WillAffleckUW]

It's designed for all the rat brains you need. The architecture assumes that nobody will ever need more than 640 wired rat brains.

Remember this day.

[Anonymous Coward]

Remember this day.
This is where it began.

There is no turning back.
But let's keep going and see what happens.

The Answer is

[ChadSmith4920]

42

Come on people!

[Anonymous Coward]

This is so completely not a true story!

Re:Come on people!

[Anonymous Coward]

Why do you think this isn't real?

It is a very good example of what can happen when smart people put their heads together.....

I, for one..

[kheldan]

..welcome our new Beorat-cluster overlords!

Unlikely

[robi5]

Of course I haven't yet RTFA but it must be some really smart experimental setup:

1. Given the approximately logarithmic relationship between the number of neurons and capabilities, it's a wonder that scaling from 200 million cells to 800 million brain cells was even detectable...
2. ... especially given that the interface must have been incredibly narrow band, noisy, and in general inferior interconnect among the brains.

Re:Unlikely

[dinfinity]

From the article:

"Then, the monkeys' brains were wired together [...]"

So that doesn't tell us shit. On to the paper:

"Electrophysiological recordings
A Multineuronal Acquisition Processor (64 channels, Plexon Inc, Dallas, TX) was used to record neuronal spikes, as previously described15. Briefly, differentiated neural signals were amplified (20000–32,000×) and digitized at 40kHz. Up to four single neurons per recording channel were sorted online (Sort client 2002, Plexon inc, Dallas, TX).

Intracortical electrical microstimulation
Intracortical electrical microstimulation cues were generated by an electrical microstimulator (Master 8 , AMPI, Jerusalem, Israel) controlled by custom Matlab script (Nattick, USA) receiving information from a Plexon system over the internet. Patterns of 8–20 (bipolar, biphasic, charge balanced; 200sec) pulses at 20–120Hz were delivered to S1. Current intensity varied from 10–100A."

So, we're talking about roughly a maximum of 64 * 4 = 256 neurons (at 40KHz) participating per brain. It's not that many, but also not few for an artificial neural network. Because that's what happened. The researcher trained the mice (via reinforcement learning) on specific problems after interconnection. He didn't interconnect them and immediately let them perform some random complex task:

"In one test, for instance, different rats brains were given different barometric pressure and temperature information, and then the computational power of the Brainet itself was used to calculate the probability that it would rain (given those inputs) at a rate higher than chance.
Nicolelis said that, essentially, he created a "classic artificial neural network using brains." In that sense, it's not artificial at all."

It's been done

[Anonymous Coward]

It's a rat king.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

Congress

[frnic]

Maybe we could replace the US Congress with a bunch of rats wired together, they certainly couldn't do worse than what we have.

Re:Congress

[CanadianMacFan]

Don't think you would need to wire them together to do better than Congress (or Parliament Hill in Canada).

Re:Congress

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe we could replace the US Congress with a bunch of rats wired together, they certainly couldn't do worse than what we have.

Or for president?!?

Frankie and Benjy 2016!

Hell, they're hyper-intelligent, which would be an improvement over most US presidents.

If the last few presidents have shown us nothing else, perhaps it's that we've been going about it the wrong way. Maybe we'd be better off with a parliamentary/prime-ministerial model. Elections are getting ridiculously long, expensive, and tedious. For all the money and attention poured into them, we don't get consistently better results, we get consistently WORSE ones. This proves we're doing it wrong. Maybe the thing to do is amend the constitution to strengthen, rather than weaken the electoral college. Instead of electing whichever loser-asshole can rake in the most money, we don't name candidates. We actually elect electors directly, send THEM to Washington, and let them hire the best person for the job.

Wasn't that the point of having that system in the first place? Then EACH STATE gets the person they think is best to go to D.C., and THEY worry about whom to pick, pick that person, and we can avoid this whole heap of nonsense every few years, and get on with our lives.

I say here every few years, because we're fast approaching a point where ELECTION CYCLES peak, like the 24-hour NEWS cycle, and we have the 1461-day election cycle, where the next election season begins basically, the first WEDNESDAY in November of every fourth year! It's ridiculous!

Re:Congress

[drinkypoo]

Maybe we could replace the US Congress with a bunch of rats wired together,

Done and done.

obBeowulf

[Anonymous Coward]

I wonder what a Beowulf cluster of those could do ...

movies coming true

[Anonymous Coward]

Wasn't this part of the plot of Pacific Rim?

Holy shit... Cranium rats!

[Anonymous Coward]

If you are not familiar with the Ad&d Planescape Setting:

http://thecreaturechronicle.tu...

Seriously now!

[Anonymous Coward]

'The brains of four rats have been interconnected to create a "Brainet" capable of completing computational tasks better than any one of the rats would have been able to on its own. '

Exactly what kind of computational tasks do you assign to a lone rat?!?

It reminds me of a Red Dwarf quote:

Lister: I'm *not* the lowest rank on this ship. What about the laboratory mice? I tell them to do something and they jump straight to it. "Yes, Mr Lister Sir, eek, eek, eek."

Re:Seriously now!

[sectokia]

The rats aren't doing a task, they are rewarding the rat based on electrode readings. For example they would shock one part of the brain, and if a certain signal was made in another part, the rat would be rewarded. After time the probability of success increases as the brain learns or gets programmed. So the brain might get rewarded only 50% of the time initially, by pure luck, but would slowly increase to 60%. The 4 brains when hooked up together learnt faster and were successful more often, for example reached 64% quicker than a single one would reach 60%.

M-5

[Sponge Bath]

Of course! If we imprint the circuits with the neural networks of a rat instead of an unstable madman, we will have fewer fatalities and more cheese. Science!

Great idea!

[Anonymous Coward]

This is truly amazing and holds great promise for people with brain issues.

Stop the Rat King

[Anonymous Coward]

My god! They are making a Rat King!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rat_king_(folklore)

Reminds me of more than a few of my bosses...

[WalrusSlayer]

...just sayin'

Just wait.

[Anonymous Coward]

This *IS* the future of the human race. I am being totally serious.

Humanity's ability to solve problems is limited by its cognitive capacity. This includes both advancing the state of tech and simple personal profit.

The ability to make a Beowulf cluster of human brains blows the roof off the top of our cognitive capacity. We can scale without practical limit.

We have *every* incentive to do this. So, I guarantee it will be done. And there will be hordes of people jumping up and volunteering (more like competing for the privilege) too. Just look at how many people are competing for the chance to go die on Mars!

Of course...a networked brain is a new kind of thinking being unto itself. No single brain will really know what it is thinking about. Once we start creating these, we won't be able to control them...they will outsmart us. But we don't need to fear that they might wipe us out or other silly nonsense....our relationship to them will be similar to that of our own neurons to our brains...only the suicidal ones would bear us any hostility.

Personally, I can't wait.

Re:Just wait.

[DroolTwist]

This reminds me of the Gw'oth and the formation of the Ol't'ro.

Re:Just wait.

[johanw]

Humans acting as one mind. You will be assimilated, resistence is futile. We are superior.

Re:Just wait.

[KGIII]

I would pay good money to be jacked into the internet. I have said this before and I will say it again. Where is the waiver and who do I pay? They can even stick a wireless nub antenna on the top of my head and an RJ-45 can be fed into my neck.

Re:Just wait.

[frog_strat]

Hmmm. It sounds like you are claiming cognitive intelligence is the only important intelligence. I hope you never have to work at a place that follows this thinking, it can be miserable. The new smart is not just cognitive, but also having an awareness of one's own state, being able to take on the perspective of another, and being able to read, and respond helpfully with, non-verbal communication. Being able to access states beyond the normal (waking, dreaming, sleeping) like non-dual, through practices like exercise, meditation, or yoga gets you bonus points.

Re:Just wait.

[TheCarp]

Have you seen this: https://www.ted.com/talks/ray_...

I watched it the other day, and its interesting to think how we might enhance our existing biology. However, if what really makes us so unique is just a paper thin membrane of newly evolved tissue, then.....

It seems even more amazing would be to liberate that membrane from its lizard brain substrate entirely.

Re:Just wait.

[kaatochacha]

You do have experience with technology, and how it continually fails, right?

Re:Just wait.

[Anonymous Coward]

The benefits that come with being able to directly connect the brain to the database of all accumulated human knowledge would be so worth the risk!

Don't let cowardice and a preference for the familiar prevent the arrival of a future that is crazy awesome!!!

Re:Just wait.

[Anonymous Coward]

You draw a distinction without a difference.

Re:Just wait.

[Anonymous Coward]

Biological systems have the same problem.

Re:Just wait.

[Insanity Defense]

Mentor of Arisia.

Psycho-Pass: Sybil System

[Anonymous Coward]

Government-controlled brain network to analyze population behavior through sensors (for "criminal personality" detection and immediate police enforcement; dystopian universe):
http://psychopass.wikia.com/wiki/Sibyl_System (spoiler warning)

Psycho-Pass was a good cyberpunk anime in my opinion, interesting concepts with nice visuals.

Already Been Done

[Anonymous Coward]

'The Affair Of The Brains', by Anthony Gilmore - see CHAPTER IX, 'The Brain Speaks'.

ObURL: http://www.gutenberg.org/files/29310/29310-h/29310-h.htm

You're welcome!

~childo

bs

[Anonymous Coward]

did anyone notice this is a bullshit report? lots of words really.

Re:People will never need more than 640 wired brai

[Joosy]

If you had RTFA, the actual quote was "640 rat brains oughta be enough for anybody".

It's a software issue, not a hardware issue

[thisisauniqueid]

Unfortunately we don't have good enough compilers yet to generate code for a multi-core brain. They may as well just use one cat brain rather than four rat brains, compiled code will still run faster.

Reads like a joke

[perryizgr8]

In that one, rats were deprived of water and were given it only if they were able to synchronize their brains together to complete a task. From there, Nicolelis essentiality turned these rats into processors.

How can they expect poor thirsty rats to sync their brains?

Meanwhile, somewhere in China...

[Anonymous Coward]

the government is harvesting the brains of executed criminals, purges their memories, and is assembling the most powerful supercomputer ever.

Absolutely disgusting.

[Anonymous Coward]

What sort of sick monsters came up with this idea? A sociopath, who believes that animals are 'things', mere automatons, to be used for whatever purpose he likes.

Instead of taking over the world...

[Anonymous Coward]

Instead of taking over the world these Rat-Robot Overlords will merely take over all the Cheese.

Animal abuse

[Anonymous Coward]

Let's just abuse animals and see what happens.
Because we can. :'-(

Describe

[nospam007]

"Here, we describe the first experimental demonstration of such a Brainet, built by interconnecting four adult rat brains."

And the description is: Creepy

What?

[Anonymous Coward]

Is it April 1st?

If you don't feel some horror ... you should

[fygment]

Yeah, it's only mice. For now.

Clearly bigger brains would, in principle, allow more complex computations. And while it's animals, I guess we're all cool with that (?). But eventually, they might get to a life form that is less ... compliant. So what other options are there? Well, people can be made to do things they don't want.

But maybe this is all going to go away. Organic brains are slow, and maybe it will become apparent that silica (or black phosphorus) is better for high performance computation. Then the whole brainlet thing will be relegated to powering obedient cyborgs ... till they become less obedient.

Maybe that's it. The new dominant life-form will evolve from this. Animal brain collectives will outsmart the mono-brained monkey descendants, and rise as the dominant life-form that makes first contact with the aliens.

Re:If you don't feel some horror ... you should

[Anonymous Coward]

I think human brains are more powerful. Has any new dominant life-form evolved from the Internet yet?

This comment is suspiciously stupid...

[Tenebrousedge]

Look! The rat brain computer has learned to post on Slashdot!

Re: Excuse me (what's the real breakthrough?)

[Demonoid-Penguin]

They weren't working for rewards. TFA says they were deprived of water until forced to cooperate. I can totally understand animal experimentation for medical advancement (live saved > lives lost). I can even understand killing rats as pest control (those rats in particular need to leave). THIS, however, was purposely acquiring rats in order to perform this test, in which they were indeed threatened with death lest they perform. Disgusting.

Possibly poor science? I didn't understand the published paper but it seemed like the connected dehydrated rats performed some tasks better than unconnected dehydrated rats... If so I don't know what it proves - being tethered to wires in your head increases adrenaline?

Much of the claimed results were very, um, beyond my understanding my admittedly very (very) basic understanding of neurology - seems to need some fairly advanced knowledge of neural processing. Like how to "pipe" image processing from one brain to another. Big money in that. I'm surprised that is not the break-through.

Ratnet or Monkeynet ?

[Vessarion]

Erm so is it rats or monkeys, since here http://www.newscientist.com/ar... we have an article about a monkey brainnet.. And lets be hones monkeynet would be much more impressive :)

excellent

[Anonymous Coward]

psycho pass here we come

Koestlers critique of ratomorphicism seems

[ToddInSF]

oddly justified today...

some sci-fi authors are visionaries

[t_ban]

Read "The Maxwell Equations" by Anatoly Dneprov: http://www.arvindguptatoys.com...

practical use

[t_ban]

Say, could I make a Beowulf cluster of rats to start my own law firm?

Assimilation is next

[Anonymous Coward]

Personally, if we do create the beginnings of the borg, I want the queen.