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HP R&D Starts Enforcing a Business Casual Dress Code
An anonymous reader writes: HP was once known as a research and technology giant, a company founded in a garage by a pair of engineers and dominated by researchers. Whilst a part of that lives on in Agilent any hope for the rest of the company has now died with the announcement that HP R&D will have to dress in business "smart casual" with T-shirts, baseball caps, short skirts, low cut dresses and sportswear all being banned.
Seriously, who gives a shit.
Who cares? Are that many geeks worn down by the brutal requirement to wear something slightly more formal than gym clothes?
"HP was once known as a research ant technology giant..."
I hear ant technology is the wave of the future!
~Liberalism Is A Mental Disorder~
At least partially silly but I do understand some of the banned items like baseball caps (or any other head wear like hoodies) as they are totally impolite to be worn indoors. :)
What I miss is a ban on dark glasses while speaking with someone.
Anyway, what I mention as unacceptable are US-only problems
Which brings up the next issue, dress style is depending on the culture you are living in and may vary greatly around the globe.
"The likes of Facebook and WhatsApp are free to those whose privacy is of zero value."
The only reasons I can think of for a move like this are:
A) Improving the business' image to clients. But it's R&D for fuck's sake, so that can't be it.
B) "Discipline", which would suggest that confidence and morale are down, which this change is not going to stem in any way.
I have no idea what a baseball cap is used for except looking like a redneck, but what are you supposed to wear besides a T-shirt ? Going bare chested ?
Non-Linux Penguins ?
This seems like a logical step to encourage an atmosphere of professionalism in which HP's remaining employees can train their H1B replacements.
What's that?
HP tried to step back in history today to more profitable and professional times, unfortunately reality refused to cooperate and they were still bleeding money like a sieve. Worse, their engineers were now leaving because they were pissed off by the dress code.
I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
Agilent split itself into medical equipment and electronic test equipment. The former kept the Agilent name and the latter is now Keysight.
Unless you want to buy an HP 5071A Cesium Primary Frequency Standard. That got sold to Symmetricom, which in turn got sold to Microsemi.
Are arbitrary
This policy would apply to HP Enterprise Services, not to HP R&D, although both were mentioned in the confused Register article.
Don't people understand the difference? Enterprise Services is customer facing and bills by the hour, it's people who design "solutions" for customers by choosing, installing, and configuring HP hardware, software, and products from other vendors. T-shirts and slutty outfits might not go over so well in those type positions.
sexy cow... moo... ^_^!
Get free satoshi (Bitcoin) and Dogecoins
... in severance packages. A hostile work environment will definitely reduce personnel.
Of course the smart people who have no problem finding another job will leave first.
thegodmovie.com - watch it
... strutting around in their low cut shirts and bare midriffs... And do we really need to see your tramp stamps?
In other news, Jerry that keeps showing up to work in his S&M gimp suit will switch to a more work appropriate polo shirt. Thanks for ruining it for everyone Jerry... you jackass.
I've decided to stop wasting my time responding to AC trolls/sockpuppets... so if you want a response from me... login.
I care about the quality of your hardware and software, not about what your engineers are wearing. Or, for the "anonymous reader" and the understandably anonymous Dice editors, "waring".
HP management is looking for scapegoat for their incompetence and has finally ran out of (other) scapegoats.
A sure sign of a company in trouble is when assholes at the top begins to blame people at the bottom for all the failings. I expect to see a lot of people shorting HP soon..
ELOI, ELOI, LAMA SABACHTHANI!?
Business casual clothing is uncomfortable and impractical. Tucking in a shirt restricts your movement and makes you sweat more easily. Leather shoes are uncomfortable unless they are the $400 kind or kind that become unwearable after 50 miles. All aspects of business attire make it difficult to do things like bend over to tie a shoe or run to catch a bus. My personal policy is that I just won't wear shoes that I couldn't walk 5 miles in without wanting to cut off my feet.
Another personal policy is that if I'm wearing a button-up shirt and I sweat through the arm pits, I'm just going to take it off and reveal... a t-shirt.
Comfort is paramount if all you do is sit in a box all day prodding a keyboard. What color shoes you have on or whether you are wearing jeans or slacks is irrelevant.
Many of us are far enough along in our careers and good enough at what we do that we simply would not ever accept having to sit in discomfort for 8 hours per day.
It is for this reason that companies like Amazon, Google, Facebook, Microsoft, etc. do not give a shit whether their employees show up wearing sneakers and pony t-shirts to work. It simply does not matter. If you think it does, you are a lemming subscribing to an aesthetic standard that makes zero objective sense.
.
The divisions that were left behind when Agilent was spun off were Just Another Company, with nothing special to speak of.
Basically, a way to get people to leave, without going through the trouble of laying them off or providing severance. The often overlooked part of this is of course that good people leave first, and mouth breathers and managers of all sorts hang on for dear life since they are unemployable elsewhere.
The company may have been founded in a garage, but it didn't stay there. What was HP like when it got out of garage? Did HP really have a reputation for people dressing like slobs? I'd suspect that people generally dressed ok and didn't need to be told how to dress for work.
Perhaps they're also looking for ways to annoy enough people into quitting so that they don't have the pay out any severance when the next round of layoffs starts. This seems like something that would push a few people over the edge, though I suspect it might be some of their better workers. Then again, the current suit only cares long enough to hit some bonuses based on poorly chosen metrics in order to cash out with a golden parachute while the company collapses.
Normally you reserve good attire when there is client contact. Having formal attire for technician and engineer when there is no client contact is contra productive, you force people into a certain fashion which they might be uncomfortable with, for no good reason. That is a sure sign a hierarchy has lost sight of what is essential , and instead concentrate on rules which makes no sense , as to show they are doing "something". I expect no good future strategy from them from now onward.
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
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Picture this at a management meeting:
"Our stock is at an all-time low, profits are down, moral is gone, all our good engineers have left. What are we gonna do?"
"I know! We'll ban casual dress, that'll solve the issues."
(Boss) "That's brilliant! Raises for everyone!"
__
Something like that perhaps? H and P must be spinning in their graves...
So rise up, all ye lost ones, as one, we'll claw the clouds.
Expect more of this as automation and offshoring eliminates more so-called (and often already non-productive) white collar jobs. Employers will place more and more conditions on those remaining.
as long as shorts are banned
At my company, we require shorts and tank tops during the summer months. If you violate the dress code by wearing long pants or sleeves, then you are not allowed to complain about the AC temperature setting. It is currently set to 78F (26C).
Abandon stock. Sell, sell, sell. All not-totally-worthless employees should fire their resume cannons with full spread to competitors. This venerable giant is going down with all collar shirts tucked in.
I would wager that what happened was some executive who thinks he or she is too high and mighty to do something like... notify anybody AT ALL that they're bringing important people through... decided to talk up how professional and awesome their employees are and then bring them through, only to catch the overweight bearded guy wearing sandals in the middle of eating a messy burger. Of course the problem is that the guy was wearing sandals!
I've witnessed this multiple times. One executive told me about how he never knows in advance when investors are coming through. I asked if they just walk up and down our street and randomly poke their head into our place. The answer to that question was a suggestion that I should update my resume.
"I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)
If I can't come in to work wearing my running shoes, sweats and a plain black t-shirt I won't work there.
With fertilizer like that, I'm sure their lawns are looking great in spite of the drought. On a scale of 1 to 10 on the shittitude meter, that's probably like a 12 or 13.
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
Oh, we have desks and tables hiding such nasty things.
On the ladies side i would not want to know which of JCPenny Macys or Victorias Secret is used for their Underthings (unless i was perhaps buying for one of them).
And on the mens side there are some very nice Polos sold at ThinkGeek.
Heck as long as they are not including things like Women MUST be wearing a skirt (or dress with a skirt) with a hem no shorter than knee length then i would say sure go for it.
I'd probably wear a nice, not short skirt because that would be against the rules, but a nice mid length skirt.
I'd argue that the above comment might rank as one of the most insightful observations about this situation that a layperson could reasonably expect to make.
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
Because nothing says "we take our business seriously" in tech like dress codes.
Guys had to look decent press a pair of khakis every morning while women in my office walked in every day sporting the "business frumpy" look in overdyed jeans, black or navy.
This is going to open some old wounds.
25 is a bit more agreeable, you don't smell the moldy filters as much
Posting AC for obvious reasons! Get it?
First off the article linked was poorly written. It is only their professional services arm that has these new restrictions. R&D does not. Secondly who cares? I prefer business casual over some of the other forms of outfits that you can wear. Yes I can wear sneakers (trainers) and they might be very comfortable, but I buy an $80 pair of shoes, wear them every day, and they last 5 years. That is not all that expensive. Khaki's are lighter than Denim Jeans .. so I prefer them. Hey, less ball sweat. $40 a pair (you need five). I have light button down shirts that I wear over my under shirt and have never had a problem of being hot, or feeling constrained. Again, spend $40 on each shirt and you will only have to replace them if you get fat (or skinny) or after like 5 years. So lets see. $500 for 5 years worth of NICE clothes you can wear anywhere (church, wedding, christmas dinner, etc.) and you are more comfortable than when you wear jeans and a polo.
Of course this is all subjective. My current job allows people to wear jeans instead of Khaki's. I told my boss that I will never wear jeans, but if he lets me wear shorts that will be a different story. I would prefer to wear shorts and a t-shirt, but it is work. Seriously. If you are customer facing, it is not hard to look nice and professional. If you are a back room guy - Who cares.
For those of you following along at home, they've corrected "sportsware" to "sportswear" in the summary. I guess someone does read the snarky comments.
Mark-T: As a long-term consultant to HP (pre-Carly), I have to say yours is the as insightful as the post you reference. Well done!
Almost all the posters around our building are people in three piece suits. Some people wear track suit pants to work. However, we're not R&D, and no customers ever come to our site. Well, our "customers" are big airlines, and the building itself is on airport property, so those "customers" are always close by. But you need multiple badges and PIN codes to actually get into the Enterprise Command Center. It's also always super cold in there, so no one wears shorts.
But what no one here notices is that this is all about the coming sell-off of HPE. They poured millions into our building, and we never have customers come in there. Enforcing this dress code is another sign. The fact that Whitman will get $91 million if we're acquired is a HUGE RED FLAG. However, this might not be a bad thing if it's not IBM or some other "we outsource everyone" company. We're homing like EMC, maybe even SABRE.
That way you can't tell who's incompetent by just looking at who's dressed up anymore.
Some delicate pansies faint at the sight of blood, but you faint at the sight of knees? Man up, nancy.
I'd prefer my colleagues to shower over wearing clothes I think look best on them.
I've had well dressed and even clean-shaven colleagues who did not appear to use a shower. I can look the other direction if I think you're unpleasant to look at, but do I have to clamp my nose shut whenever I have to share the room?
Also: smokers. You bring that stench with you when you come back inside. Please quit.
To paraphrase Agent Smith: "I can't stand them. It's the smell."
My experience dressing down at a business meeting:
I was one of three technical persons presenting to the customer. I didn't go first, so there was no initialization bias. Everyone was in business casual, but me; I was wearing khaki pants, but I was also wearing my "turtle" Hawaiian shirt I had picked up in St. Croix on recent vacation. Anytime the customers had a technical question, even when someone else was presenting, they asked it, and then looked at me to answer the question.
Dressing down at a business meeting means one of two things:
(1) They are the customer in the room; if you are there for a customer meeting, and it's not technical, then the person dressed down is the actual customer. Forget the guys in the suits, they are not the customer. They will ask questions, but the answers will ultimately be judged by the decision maker. The person who looks like they just stepped off the golf course or off the windsurfer? She or he is the decision maker. This is emphasized if the meeting doesn't start until they arrive.
(2) They are the technical talent; they don't dress up, because they don't have to. If you want a technical question answered, they are the person who will give you the answer that's going to stick. If they follow up someones else's answer with a "Well...", you'd better listen.
We all have our uniforms.
P.S.: Highly technical fields require that you forget everything but the intellectual problem in front of you; you can't do that to the same depth, if your collar is constrictive, or you can't otherwise ignore your physicality. It's the clothing equivalent of working in an Open Plan Office: the distractions detract from the work product.
Gosh, never go above 20.5 degrees to keep the smell comfortable.
Short skirts and low cut dresses? Freakin' sweet!
Wait a minute; this allows women to still wear those 'panties with pockets' shorts, which are far more revealing than short skirts.
So us men can still wear tight singlets and footy shorts? Yeah, like men are allowed to wear revealing clothes at work.
There are worse things to be seen hanging out of a pair of shorts.
You got to pry the ESD slippers from my cold dead feet before I wear anything but them indoors.
At least I can use ESD safe footwear as an excuse for wearing slippers.
If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker would destroy civilization.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
I'm afraid you are correct. HP used to be a very good company. I competed and then supplied them for over 40 years of my professional life. They did some very good Stuff. But Meg was given a pile of crap from the likes of Carly. The bonus for managers that turned it all into permission to be abusive and arrogant. The staff, some of whom, I really respected have left. (Some AHoles have left too.. but that is another issue.)
Acts like these will annoy the good people as much as the so=so people. .. but on a 20% vs. 80%.. the hit on the top line of 20% will be massive. The management within HP is NOT good enough to manage through the constant downsizing, redirection, and ambiguity that an HP employee has to now manage his professional life by. Because as Meg and Carly have shown.. they are just human capital that has no balance sheet impact when it is destroyed.
Yea boo hoo. Literally everyone in the professional world is forced to wear these stupid button up shirts and dress up pants. Welcome to reality.
Do I enjoy sitting at my cubicle wearing uncomfortable ass clothes on weekdays? No I do not. And I;ve resorted to wearing jeans 3 of the 4 long days a week I work. Screw the man.
It is currently set to 78F (26C).
Theory of mind. I've come to understand that people are different. Something that might be a mild annoyance for one person can be severely unpleasant or even dangerous for someone else. The older I get the more I favor a work environment that carefully chooses a boring middle ground.
Sure, most people will be fine with a workplace temperature that's a bit too hot or a bit too cold. But I'm not omniscient. I can't be sure that there isn't someone with slightly unusual physiology (perhaps even as a result of their genetics) or perhaps some other medical condition (e.g. a skin condition that is made worse with constant sweating) where a workplace temperature outside the normal range will be severely unpleasant or even damaging to their health.
That's not to say that work shouldn't be meaningful. But work should be about work. A lot of employees need their jobs in order to feed their families. Subjecting certain vulnerable employees to an unnecessarily unpleasant or dangerous work environments to satisfy your own personal whims is at best callous - if not downright sadistic.
You don't have to tell us, we can smell your company through our displays.
They're done.
Soon? Seriously, when they stopped making lab gear, it was Game Over.
Technology -- No Place For Wimps! Grateful Dead and Jerry Garcia Chatroom -- http://www.wemissjerry.org
If I am forced to wear clothes that aren't comfortable even when I am an engineer in the back room with no interface with the public, then I don't feel the need to stick around for extra hours of work. I can't wait to take off uncomfortable clothes when I get home. Their right. Their loss.
My place of work not only does this, but they shut off the heat/AC at 6pm, then turn it back on at about 6:30am, and off all the time on the weekends. They ignore the fact that some offices get to over 100F on the weekends due to East/West facing windows.
Well aren't you just a delicate little teacup.
I work for HP in RnD; I haven't gotten this memo. Reading the fine article and giving some of my (anonymous) experience however....
1) This seems to apply to only the services organization. That is, the digested remains of EDS. That arm of the company was bought originally because it had serious problems and hence could be acquired cheap and then fixed up. This is just yet another step in fixing it up (although, dress code doesn't seem that important; perhaps there are some serious professionalism issues in some parts?). There's also (I see reported in the news) yet more layoffs coming in that division; the rest of the company yawns when that is announced.
Per dress codes....
2) We had an "important visitor" this week.... so I dressed up a bit. I made sure that I had a clean pair of jeans, and wore a button-down dress shirt. With the buttons undone, my sleeves rolled up to the elbows, and I'm not 100% sure my tennis shoes didn't have holes, but I didn't wear the falling-apart pair. It was hot this week so I slacked on the dress shirt for some of the days, but I made sure it was a solid-color t-shirt without any logo or graphics. Not one fuck was given about how I dressed; I calibrated my dress to the level of importance, and it was fine.
3) There was only 1 case I know of regarding someone getting flack for under-dressing. One co-worker was told in the peer-review (and I was one of the people who told him this) that you should make sure that your t-shirt doesn't have massive holes when you know you're going to present in front of C-suite executives. We didn't say that t-shirts were verboten... just to please make sure that they're not in tatters. He bought a few polo shirts and a chucked the most "holiest" of his previous ones, and everything continued on just fine.
3) Previously my manager would regularly come in to work dressed much more shabbily than me. Seeing him wander around barefoot (not just sandals, but flat-out barefoot) in raggy shorts with a tie-died t-shirt wasn't uncommon. You could always tell if there was a customer visit, though; he'd be sporting khakis and a polo then. If he looked like a beach-bum, you knew that there weren't any customers around.
4) One day my manager got promoted to director level, and his biggest complaint was that he had to buy a suit. That is, although for day-to-day anything went, if we were meeting a customer, everyone knew we had to dress the part. A director had to wear a suit to certain meetings; so he sucked it up and got one. One of the other directors didn't like dressing up so much, but kept a suit in his cube just in case--he could have a t-shirt and jeans on most of the time, and if needed it took him 10 minutes to slip into the more formal clothes.
EDS (aka HP Services) has issues; the rest of the company is sensible. Show up in inappropriate clothes for the task at hand, and you'll get a polite suggestion that maybe you should up your wardrobe. Show up dressed like a homeless person when there aren't any big-wigs around, and nobody really cares.
I think a company should have some dress standards. Don't wear pajamas to work. Don't wear clothing that's too revealing, ragged and torn, or stinky dirty. But a rule that a men can't dress like a woman can lead to all sorts of lawsuits.
But aside from common-sense rules, casual dressing in short pants is fine. People who come into the company will know that IT people tend to dress casually, so they won't be shocked to see casual clothing.
Once I interviewed at Apple, and the manager who interviewed me was wearing short pants. (No, I didn't get the job.) And in this video, Steve Jobs is wearing short pants while he's making a short speech to Apple managers.
Would it help if we shaved, and do you only hate male knees? What about unshaven female calves?
While we're at it can we enforce a strict BMI rule at the work place? I've never seen a fat person I prefer not to see.
Oh also brunets; Everyone should be blonde and blue eyed.
What Would Carli Do? She'd dress sharp, of course...
Well, technically we do have a dress code. You are required to wear pants. Or skirts if you prefer. And it is mandatory to wear it in such a way that it covers your genitals and buttocks. You are encouraged to wear something covering your torso. It would be nice if this had at least something that could resemble sleeves, however short they may be. And shoes would be encouraged but more out of comfort than necessity.
It is a bit more strict if you're in direct contact with the customer, granted. And no, we're not some hip little start up. We're a medium sized bank with a few centuries of tradition behind it and a rather conservative customer stock. But we're IT security. We don't get into contact with the customer. Why the fuck should we give a shit how someone dresses as long as it's clean and doesn't show me some part of his/her anatomy that should better stay concealed?
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
This makes me laugh.
Years ago, I worked for a company in Mesa, Arizona. It's damned hot in that area, especially in the summer.
When the company tackled the thorny issue of dress codes, they wanted a unisex dress code--no double standards. The dress code ended up being, "You must be covered from shoulders to a little above the knee in clothing of good repair." Open toed shoes were okay, but no flip-flops.
That was it. No ripped jeans. No tube tops or spaghetti straps.
That said, there were some people who could just not handle hairy men's legs and, I'm told, argued vehemently against men wearing shorts. The head of HR basically said that whatever standards are there for women should also be there for men. If you want to wear skirts, you need to let men show their legs, too.
There were two other interesting things they did. One, they hung a sign in the lobby that said "This company supports a casual dress code." So you wouldn't wonder why people were wandering around in shorts. The other rule was that there were times--maybe once or twice a year--when it might be necessary to, shall we say, "dress to impress." When this happened, you would be notified by your manager--and it was up to your manager to do this and verify that you got the message--more than 24 hours before this would happen. If you were not notified and showed up dressed unimpressively, your manager was the one who caught the heat.
I learned two important lessons from one of my former bosses concerning dressing:
First: If you meet with a group of people, the least well dressed person is the one you're looking out for. It's either the tech or the decision maker. And both of them are important to you. The decision maker for obvious reasons, and the tech because he'll be the one asking the important questions and his reaction to your answers is also the important one, because he will later translate your answer to the managers. They can nod, ahh and ohh all they want to your answer, they don't understand it. It's the tech that will understand it and what he later conveys to his managers is what makes or breaks your contract. So that is the one person you need to convince.
And second, never trust a tech in a suit. Never. If you're in a customer meeting with someone who is allegedly a tech and he comes in dressed up like a manager, there's two possible reasons: First, he's not a tech but a sales goon who has been briefed by their tech, and he has been sent 'cause they fear their tech would tell us more truth about the product than they want him to. Or he is a tech and was forced to dress up to distract from the product being not able to stand on its own. If something needs a dolled up clown to sell it, it's not worth buying it.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
I thought they were enforcing the use of T-shirts -- you know, as a way to avoid someone requiring formal clothing.
And I thought: "wow, it's 2015 and they the memo now?" Sadly, they didn't get the memo. Maybe when the aliens land on Earth in search of cosmic peace, we'll have to explain why that particular group of humans dress all alike.
You can wear a knee length skirt even if you're a man, but a pair of knee length shorts is against the rules. That will never make sense to me how obviously sexist that is yet HR sees no issue with it.
This is how EDS was before HP bought, then gutted, them. Good for them to return to some semblance of professionalism.
Leather shoes are uncomfortable unless they are the $400 kind or kind that become unwearable after 50 miles.
You need to learn to shop for shoes. I got a pair of Bass slip-on dress shoes for $60. Had them for about a year now, and they are still super comfortable and have no problems with the soles or anything else (like some of the other cheap brands I bought did).
Our office does that too. I moved the remote temp/humidity sensor monitor for the UPS system into my office for a month in the summer. My desktop reach 125F one weekend, 130F+ two weekends and over 140F the hottest weekend. Everything with an electrolytic cap has had failure rates increase 2-400% due to the heat.
First of all, this fourth "wonder of the world" CEO needs to disassociate the name "HP" and "Hewlett-Packard" from the company. It's an insult to its founders.
R&D is typically closed doors to the public and should be for I.P. purposes.
If all the remains of HP has to tout in their R&D lab is how the engineers dress, that means there isn't much of substance to demonstrate the "wow effect" to outsiders. That says a lot about HP.
HP has undergone 16 years of cost cutting (and counting) and their product quality shows the effects of that short term goal (so managers can get their bonuses).
I will not buy another HP product. Frankly, their quality has become abysmal.
If I would work with anything related to Linux it would be tuxedo day every day for me. HP sauce is something every well dressed person should be aware, though.
i ever interviewed with. glad I dodged that bullet and never worked for that shithole HP.
I was wondering why I keep running into really smart folks that are former HP employees. All the smart ones got out - all that are left are those without eyes to see the decline, can't get a job elsewhere, or are over 45.
My place of work not only does this, but they shut off the heat/AC at 6pm, then turn it back on at about 6:30am, and off all the time on the weekends. They ignore the fact that some offices get to over 100F on the weekends due to East/West facing windows.
Where I used to work, I had a west facing window. In the summer, the AC could never keep up , so it would be 72 when I came in, but by quitting time it would be 85 in there.
It was worse in certain days in the spring and fall where it was reasonably warm outside in the afternoons, but they were still running the furnace. The furnace couldn't keep up either, so in the morning, it would be 55 degrees in the office, but by quitting time, it would be 85, because the furnace finally caught up and overcompensated.
I finally stopped complaining and just put a large thermostat on the wall so that people could actually see the temperature. It never got fixed, but I don't work there anymore, so let the next guy deal with it.
If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
Remember back in the early '90s when women got to wear shorts to work by calling them skorts? It used to annoy me that I had to wear a dress shirt, tie, slacks and dress shoes while the women got to wear skorts, whatever top they wanted and comfortable shoes.
If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
You got to pry the ESD slippers from my cold dead feet before I wear anything but them indoors.
Challenge accepted. /reaches for LARGE pair of shears
The lab gear got spun off to Agilent, then the electronics test and measurement gear got spun off to Keysight.
Siemens in Cheshire, Ct. did something like that.Once a year as the weather turned cold the warm air inside, still thick with water from the summer, would lose its water to the windows, and pools of water would end up on the windowsills. Anyone ignorant of the phenomenon (me) who left work documentation or books on the windowsills got important stuff damaged.
Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
Anybody that's any good at all won't put up with this shit.
I use overalls and a yellow t-shirt in the office, just like the rest of the minions.
While sweltering at an outdoor summer wedding wearing a jacket, pants and socks (!) I ended up in a conversation with a woman wearing some kind of sheer silk dress and sandals about how men don't understand the social pressure on women to appear a certain way. I told her I would love to wear what she was. She gave me this strange look and excused herself.
America is a woman's cuntry
"If something needs a dolled up clown to sell it, it's not worth buying it."
That is the essence of advertising summed up in one sentence.
No, none of that is really true. You are just using selective bias to reinforce your own choices.
There are brilliant people in suits and in T-shirts. Trying to discern which is which by their attire is a losing battle.
Personally, I am a technologist who tries to maintain a professional appearance. I usually wear slacks and button down shirts. Why? Because traditionally people signal the importance of the task by what they wear. I might head to the gym in sweats, but I'm not going to wear them to a funeral or a wedding.
The fact that I dress up for those events demonstrates that I care enough to put in some effort. Wearing some dirty, stained rags that I picked up off the floor indicates that I put no care, effort, or thought into an event that is tremendously important to others.
Now, I realize that many techs dress down almost as a uniform to differentiate themselves from others. So, I pretty much give them a pass, but I'm never impressed by it.
Here are a couple of guys in suits who I'm sure you think are clueless because they are wearing suits. I'm sure someone explained all that complicated technology stuff to them before the event. Too bad they couldn't find some competent techs to figure out why those people died.
http://www.geoffwilkins.net/im...
I don't think I ever showed up for a job wearing gym clothes. But jeans and comfortable short-sleeve polo type shirts, or even t-shirts in the summer months, and tennis-shoes? Definitely!
At one of my previous jobs, they hired a new woman in the H.R. department, and all of a sudden she decided she was going to enforce new dress codes. The word was, I.T. and software developers would no longer be allowed to wear jeans. Thankfully, our best Java developer was an ex-hippie who viewed this as an opportunity to get the whole team together and fight for a cause again. Within about a month, H.R. retracted the policy change, agreeing that jeans in "presentable condition" were part of an acceptable business casual dress code for the company.
Truthfully, I can't speak for the software devs. But as one of the support specialists - the ability to wear jeans and t-shirts was a huge benefit, as we were expected to crawl around on the floor to connect or disconnect cables and had to go out to an industrial shop floor regularly to swap out nasty, grimy old equipment or service it. It just didn't make sense to wear clothing you'd have to pay to get dry cleaned, or even khaki pants that would get torn too easily.
Even at my current job, I consider it a big perk of the job that they're pretty casual with the dress code. I don't own a lot of more formal clothing, so I'd have to lay out a lot of money to build my wardrobe of that stuff up again. And I'd pretty much never wear it except for the job requiring it -- so in that sense, I may as well be buying my own uniforms or something.
I will say, there are always people out there who don't seem to have any sense of what's appropriate to wear into a workplace. Especially in some of the help-desk environments I've seen, you've got people dressing like they're going out to a nightclub instead of to do technical support. And no, I don't think it's professional to wear beat up, raggedy clothes either. If you work I.T., I think t-shirts with advertising logos related to your industry are perfectly acceptable. (If you have that Microsoft, Intel Inside, Apple or HP promotional t-shirt - great.) But one advertising your favorite alcoholic beverage? Probably best to leave that at home.
It' funny (but it's slashdot after all) how a comment ends up being exaggerated with wild misinterpretations such as "hate", "fainting", ... almost like in a Bernd episode:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=...
Funny also how so many people don't realize that men wearing shorts are simply considered as in poor taste - in most of the world (but don't talk about that on /. -- the world outside anglophone countries may be too complex a concept to consider).
Not to mention the even funnier idea that would have an average pair of shorts being any better for warm weather than summer/light cotton calanques-style pants.
For that matter? I'd venture to say that even for client facing employees, dress code/attire has too much emphasis placed on it in many cases.
For a long time, I knew a lot of really good, bright people in I.T. who avoided or distrusted any salesperson approaching them in a suit and tie. They knew that you could basically pull any warm body off the street, dress them up like that, and put them out there to try to sell you something. The people with real knowledge about the products or services were more likely not to be forced to go through all of that.
I know myself, I'd mainly be concerned that someone I interact with as a potential business partner looks like they have it together. Don't show up with clothes with holes and tears in them, or clothes that fit really poorly. But beyond that? Trust me.... I don't waste any time looking to see if you have designer brand shoes on, or care if your shirt buttons down vs. pulls over.
I've found that you can look fairly professional just by wearing clothing as simple as a solid black t-shirt and a pair of black jeans. (It has sort of a modern "I'm a techie." look to it, as long as what you wear is in good, clean condition and fits you properly.)
It's NOT a thing in the US. The only reason it's even in the news is because it's an idiotic decision by a formerly-proud tech company circling the drain. Nice of you to show your prejudices, though. Always educational when Europeans look down on Americans, it's not like it hasn't been happening for over 200 years.
Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
Wait, I thought dress was a relic from a previous age, one that didn't matter in today's modern world. Now suddenly it has all sorts of important information to convey? Wow, that goes against the entire article.
Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
That and when they killed the calculator division
HP publicly states it doesn't discriminate on the basis of gender identity.
So... guys need to wear heels that aren't too high and skirts that aren't too short (or blouses that aren't too low cut).
Problem solved!
It's not exaggerated at all. You said it yourself you don't like the looks of men's legs, and you want shorts banned.
YOU are imposing YOUR will on others because of what YOU don't like to see.
Also wearing shorts is not considered poor taste in much of the world, and even if it is how is it any different to skirts? Where is the skirt hate? Why aren't female knees ugly?
The reality is the only "taste" here we are talking about is YOUR taste. You don't want it interpreted as such? Then stop spreading your hate of men's calves by using the theme of wanting shorts banned.
The commuter train drivers in Stockholm had a problem with an apparently discriminating dress code. But then someone discovered that the dress code was actually gender neutral and only listed the allowed garments, so many of the men started wearing skirts instead of the banned shorts. That scared the management straight, and they soon allowed shorts.
Having worked for HP in the past, i will agree with this... HP have been blaming all levels for its failures, from basic service delivery people not answering enough calls per hour, to engineers not doing enough jobs per day (even if they are only receiving 1 per day), to sales people not making enough sales.
However the first sign of getting some form of competence in management is to set up some recognisable authority structure and creating some simple ground rules.
I also recall HP global having a dress code previously, generally it included either a business shirt or a HP logo'd Polo that was either supplied or purchased by the employee... maybe someone got lazy and forgot to uphold it previously...
All up this story is typical \. fud.
The argument is generally that R&D is not worth the effort (i.e., money == labor cost) due to the long timeline involved, unless it is just part of using external ideas in a slightly different way.
Even if they aren't smart, at least they can dress smart.
At my company, we require shorts and tank tops during the summer months. If you violate the dress code by wearing long pants or sleeves, then you are not allowed to complain about the AC temperature setting. It is currently set to 78F (26C).
I would have to buy a whole new wardrobe for that job. And that temperature is uncomfortably high. I'll keep my current job, thanks.
powerful metal fan accidents. Oops there goes another necktie stuck in the agenda 21 spied on green powerful computer power supply fan, We REFUSE to sue because we REQUIRE these large fans similar to aircraft intakes just to keep our chips' fins cool. after the ambu/cleanup / darwin phase job openings surely the workplace moral will be picking up.
Certainly some cult out there will pray that HP guys that ride bikes get them stuck in the wheels as there are no more 1927 race cars available on such short notice. We aren't the bank after all, we can't just PRINT money.
The way I truly see it now is, the older computers are what I want, I need to open a RECYCLE CENTER!!!@ Everybody's happy.
The guys showed poor taste for wearing such a shirt at the event. Have folks considered maybe there were other extenuating circumstances that led to his dismissal?
Because everyone knows that the real eggheads use pipes...
The reason for me to ask whether it is STILL an issue is that I spent some time working in the US and they were quite strict with work dress code, something I was by no means used to from the European work places I have been to.
That plus the fact that I was the only one who considered it odd that people have to dress up when there is no way they could possibly come into contact with customers leads me to the conclusion that it was back then the norm in the US.
And hence me wondering whether it still is the norm.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
There is a difference, and I do sincerely hope you know it, between dirty, stained rags and informal attire. Believe it or not, it's possible to wash jeans and t-shirts so they not only look but also smell nice.
As for your picture, you might notice that this is from a very different time. That's like complaining about the fashion of the 70s and questioning the sexual preference of the guys.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
My first thought, when I read the summary, was of my co-workers, all male, wearing short skirts or low-cut dresses. I may have to gouge out my eyes.
My personal experience is that absent clear enforced rules, deportment degrades over time to unacceptable levels, at which point management institutes unpalatable rules. If you have freedom in deportment, enjoy it but be sensible.
linquendum tondere
It's not like most of their workforce isn't contractors who are already in business casual because their hiring agency requires it anyway.
I would add this to the grocery list of warning telltale signs that you have to dump stock:
e.g: the management owns their own airplanes or (worse) their own airports, repeated "unexplainable" changes in reporting rules etc.
HP announces that its top engineering talent is now available for poaching at lower prices.
Many years ago, I saw a notice on the bulletin board of a client site in Florida. The big debate was allowing shorts at work. The guys were against it because the miniskirts were much short than "business casual Bermuda", but the part I laughed at was "NO Speedos and at any time!" thinking it was a joke. Nope. One of their operators was a college kid on a swim team.On a Saturday, he stopped off at the office to see if a tape job had run before going to a meet. It aborted, so he took the time to re-start it. He was in a Speedo and flop-flops while probably freezing to death in the glassroom when the tour of VIPs came thru ..
Yes, HP has had massive internal strife. I do rememeber. The Dress Code battles, when field engineering stopped wearing ties. I took mine off in hour 10 of a 16 hour day troubleshooting an intermittent SelectorChannel fault in an HP3000. Angst followed the report to my manager.
But, that was nothing compared to the great donut wars.
HP was not doing well in the computer business. DEC was handing them their ass. Time to get lean and mean. First act was to cut the free donuts from daily to Friday only. Why, you would have thought we entered WWIII. All work stopped. Angry mobs mingled about in the break rooms at 9:30 every morning. Torches were prepared, ropes broken out.
It suddenly struck me. If donuts mean more than business, maybe I am at the wrong company. So I left.
Everything that happened to HP in the next 35 years validated my decision.
There is a difference, and I do sincerely hope you know it, between dirty, stained rags and informal attire. Believe it or not, it's possible to wash jeans and t-shirts so they not only look but also smell nice.
As for your picture, you might notice that this is from a very different time. That's like complaining about the fashion of the 70s and questioning the sexual preference of the guys.
I have to agree.
One of the "You Have Arrived" indicators for success for a technical person in Silicon Valley is not having to wash your T-Shirts unless you want to keep them, because you are getting, on average, a new T-Shirt every day or so. It's a lot less that way these days, but you could, if you are sought after technically, go an entire month without doing laundry, and wear one to two T-shirts a day, with little effort to solicit shirts.
I had an intern in a button-down collar, at Google, engage me in the following conversation:
Intern: "Who's the old guy in the T-shirt"
Me: "Vint Cerf"
Intern: "Is he the token really old guy? Why do they keep him around?"
Me: "He invents things. He's a Distinguished Engineer."
Intern: (not hearing the Caps) "Like what?"
Me: "The Internet."
Intern: "Yeah, but what on the internet?"
Me: "That's it. He invented the Internet."
Intern: "You're shitting me!"
Me: "Someone had to. Do you really need me to explain who Vint Cerf is? Because if that's true, I'm willing to do the job, but you should probably 'us' it."
Intern: "What's 'us it' mean?"
Me "Google it."
Frankly I expected defibrillators would be involved at that point, but he recovered.
He moved to machine learning after that, but I think the lesson improved him.
Seriously, I can not take you anywhere.
The message could actually be this: "Hey guys, we're forcing you to wear suits because... err... how should we put this... because you'll need them in a short while, when you go job hunting anyway. We're doing you a favour, while not telling you that we're about to start layoffs. You're welcome."
"Everybody's naked underneath" -- The Doctor
But my religion requires me to wear nerd shirts. Do not say then you cannot employ people of my religion or you will get a discrimination lawsuit.
But as one of the support specialists - the ability to wear jeans and t-shirts was a huge benefit, as we were expected to crawl around on the floor to connect or disconnect cables and had to go out to an industrial shop floor regularly to swap out nasty, grimy old equipment or service it.
I did PC refresh project where I did a lot of crawling around underneath cubicle desks. Jeans made the boys downstairs hot and uncomfortable (i.e., sweaty balls). I switched to khaki and the problem went away. Then again, I'm old enough to wear what I call my old man's pants (my father wore khaki while working in construction). The only time I wear blue jeans at work is when I haven't picked up my dry cleaning for the week.
https://youtu.be/zYjlZVNFjiI?t...
Serenity now, insanity later.
So, when Americans go to Europe for 2 weeks and draw mistaken conclusions from their experiences it means they're idiots, but you do the reverse and it's valid? WTF? And it IS considered stupid in America, lots of companies don't have these policies. I'm starting to get the idea that Europeans aren't nearly as smart and superior as they are constantly claiming to be.
Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
Thank you. Reading your post convinced me that once in a while, there can be a shred of sanity in this world.
So that reaction is normal.nowadays that company is already boring :/
that you are using their computer without permission, son?
Folks, It could be worse. Heck, the only time we had "business casual" day, was Friday. Denim and t-shirts was only allowed on weekends. Well, H/P better open up their wallets. Dry cleaning and new clothes costs money.
Freudian slip, or just brilliant? Made me grin either way.
If you like dress codes, you'll love Booz, Allen, Hamilton. Freshly pressed suits, at all times. If you're lucky, you might be allowed to take your jacket off after hours.
http://www.indeed.com/forum/cm...
https://www.eff.org/https-everywhere
When you read that HP was "a company founded in a garage by a pair of engineers ", that means that they took off their ties when they got home from their day jobs.
After all, this was before the 60's... 8-)
I started working for the government about a year ago (Australia).
Previously I was a standard full stack contracting web developer, and while the allure of lower pay was dangled in front of me, it was the fixed work hours and no crunch that sold me, but I digress.
Before working here I was jeans and t-shirts 99% of the time, and business casual (that I upped to suit and tie) on occasional client interactions, where appropriate. No worries.
I was told (after starting, there's no official dress code) that my boss's boss wanted me to dress business casual, without any actual reason given.
Since then, I've purchased a dozen van heusen 'iron-free' business shirts, and a couple of pairs of chinos, which I cycle around, washing machine + clothes dryer + no iron.
So now I am constantly looking like a hobo. Wrinkled shirts and pants every day, cause I can't be arsed ironing.
Jeans and t-shirts don't hold wrinkles... and are much more comfortable, and save me from looking like a hobo, but at least my boss's boss is happy now.
p.s. Fridays we're allowed jeans (but still collared shirts) and Fridays are just as productive as any other day, just a hell of a lot more relaxed (in my experience, Fridays are usually less productive, all other things being equal)
tl;dr: It's weird how what you wear matters more to some bosses than your job performance.
"lt;dr" is the correct response to most of my posts.
While cost is a factor, it isn't the only one. What about those of us who have a) a significant walking portion of our commute and/or b) women who are required to wear heels (while not often an outright requirement, a lot of pressure is often on women to wear them) and then you need to carry an extra pair of sneakers with you every day. One more thing to forget/remember/carry/juggle/distract from your day.
(And while I understand a lot of women who choose to wear high heels for dressing up will commonly carry sneakers/whatever with them by their own choice, I don't think going to work falls into the same arena, and should at least be your own choice)
"lt;dr" is the correct response to most of my posts.
Again, the Bass shoes that I bought have really strong soles, and are super comfortable. I spent 6 months in these shoes walking around a hospital or standing at a work station fixing it. The hospital was one of the huge medical centers, and it was like a half mile (or more) to just get to the other side of the building, and I was consistently walking everywhere. While it may not be a very long distance like some people's commute, I did put a ton of wear on the shoes and they are still going strong.
I see... so why should one have to wear anything at all?
If I were to decide to go to work wearing just my hat and a pair of sneakers, why shouldn't I be allowed to do so?
Is showing one's behind or one's front bad taste? Or why else is it banned?
Who decided that --as outer garment-- shorts and XXL T-shirts are OK at work, but tight speedos are not OK at work?
Why are man allowed to run on the street in shorts only, barechested, but women aren't?
(at least that's what I've observed in most anglophone countries... other places around the world seem to have other, quite varying, rules)
I think you both might be confused.
It's very regional in the US. Business casual is very common for non-customer-facing positions in much of the US Northeast and the adjoining areas of Canada. The Pacific Coast is noticeably more relaxed.
Ahh, I picked up a pair of rockports that are the most comfortable dress shoes I've ever had, weren't toooo expensive, and last forever. But they're not sneakers, and never will be. :)
Then again, I had a cold office for a while that I kept a pair of ugg boots in, and changed at work for the day, some days I'd wear sneakers into work, change in the elevator to dress shoes, and change 5 min later into ugg boots, and in reverse at the end of the day
But I'd rather just wear one comfortable pair of shoes all day long.
"lt;dr" is the correct response to most of my posts.
You might not be far from the truth.
HP has been moving increasingly towards the standardized metrics monitored by idiots who have no actual concept of what people do. They're also going for a heavily off-shored model of delivery which they are as yet incapable of recognizing the drop in quality.
Management has pretty much relentlessly doing all they can to crush employee morale and make HP a terrible place to work -- and they've been cost cutting to the bone to make up for several CEOs worth of incompetent management.
HP has become a shit hole to work for, and pretty much make it worse every month.
It's a large, diverse, and completely confused corporation which doesn't even really know what it does any more.
Who knows what will happen when the company splits into corporations for consumer products and everything else ... but it's been clear management hasn't had any idea of how to run the company for years.
The only thing HP management knows how to do is lose money and give themselves massive compensation packages. Which is pretty much identical to most modern corporations.
What really needs to happen is reigning in the pay of executives and stop pretending losing billions earns you millions in bonuses. The rest of us don't get bonuses for being incompetent.
"Run, Forrest: RUN!!!" vs. a fair challenge http://news.slashdot.org/comme...
* I find it UTTERLY HILARIOUS seeing a bullshit artist mere talk TROLLING done zero loser like you has the NERVE to state what you did - especially after you RAN in that link above, gweihir... lol!
You don't HAVE the ability to code & the link above evidences it - you're a bullshit blowhard, nothing more - a MERE TECHIE MENIAL @ best/most!
(FACT: Minus coders like myself, you TECHIE or NETWORK ADMIN MENIALS ARE HELPLESS - just as you've SHOWN yourself to be in that link above!)
APK
P.S.=> Keep on shooting your blowhard done nothing in computing mouth off gweihir - I'll be RIGHT THERE AGAIN to expose your crap yet again (have fun with the shame you'll have to publicly endure here & YOU STARTED IT WITH ME YOU USELESS TROLLING LOSER WITH NO SKILLS BUT LOTS OF MERE "TALK", lmao)... apk
"Run, Forrest: RUN!!!" vs. a fair challenge http://news.slashdot.org/comme...
* I find it UTTERLY HILARIOUS seeing a bullshit artist mere talk TROLLING done zero loser like you has the NERVE to state what you did - especially after you RAN in that link above, gweihir... lol!
You don't HAVE the ability to code & the link above evidences it - you're a bullshit blowhard, nothing more - a MERE TECHIE MENIAL @ best/most!
(FACT: Minus coders like myself, you TECHIE or NETWORK ADMIN MENIALS ARE HELPLESS - just as you've SHOWN yourself to be in that link above!)
APK
P.S.=> Keep on shooting your blowhard done nothing in computing mouth off gweihir - I'll be RIGHT THERE AGAIN to expose your crap yet again (have fun with the shame you'll have to publicly endure here & YOU STARTED IT WITH ME YOU USELESS TROLLING LOSER WITH NO SKILLS BUT LOTS OF MERE "TALK", lmao)... apk
"Run, Forrest: RUN!!!" vs. a fair challenge http://news.slashdot.org/comme...
* I find it UTTERLY HILARIOUS seeing a bullshit artist mere talk TROLLING done zero loser like you has the NERVE to state what you did - especially after you RAN in that link above, gweihir... lol!
You don't HAVE the ability to code & the link above evidences it - you're a bullshit blowhard, nothing more - a MERE TECHIE MENIAL @ best/most!
(FACT: Minus coders like myself, you TECHIE or NETWORK ADMIN MENIALS ARE HELPLESS - just as you've SHOWN yourself to be in that link above!)
APK
P.S.=> Keep on shooting your blowhard done nothing in computing mouth off gweihir - I'll be RIGHT THERE AGAIN to expose your crap yet again (have fun with the shame you'll have to publicly endure here & YOU STARTED IT WITH ME YOU USELESS TROLLING LOSER WITH NO SKILLS BUT LOTS OF MERE "TALK", lmao)... apk
"Run, Forrest: RUN!!!" vs. a fair challenge http://news.slashdot.org/comme...
* I find it UTTERLY HILARIOUS seeing a bullshit artist mere talk TROLLING done zero loser like you has the NERVE to state what you did - especially after you RAN in that link above, gweihir... lol!
You don't HAVE the ability to code & the link above evidences it - you're a bullshit blowhard, nothing more - a MERE TECHIE MENIAL @ best/most!
(FACT: Minus coders like myself, you TECHIE or NETWORK ADMIN MENIALS ARE HELPLESS - just as you've SHOWN yourself to be in that link above!)
APK
P.S.=> Keep on shooting your blowhard done nothing in computing mouth off gweihir - I'll be RIGHT THERE AGAIN to expose your crap yet again (have fun with the shame you'll have to publicly endure here & YOU STARTED IT WITH ME YOU USELESS TROLLING LOSER WITH NO SKILLS BUT LOTS OF MERE "TALK", lmao)... apk
"Run, Forrest: RUN!!!" vs. a fair challenge http://news.slashdot.org/comme...
* I find it UTTERLY HILARIOUS seeing a bullshit artist mere talk TROLLING done zero loser like you has the NERVE to state what you did - especially after you RAN in that link above, gweihir... lol!
You don't HAVE the ability to code & the link above evidences it - you're a bullshit blowhard, nothing more - a MERE TECHIE MENIAL @ best/most!
(FACT: Minus coders like myself, you TECHIE or NETWORK ADMIN MENIALS ARE HELPLESS - just as you've SHOWN yourself to be in that link above!)
APK
P.S.=> Keep on shooting your blowhard done nothing in computing mouth off gweihir - I'll be RIGHT THERE AGAIN to expose your crap yet again (have fun with the shame you'll have to publicly endure here & YOU STARTED IT WITH ME YOU USELESS TROLLING LOSER WITH NO SKILLS BUT LOTS OF MERE "TALK", lmao)... apk
"Run, Forrest: RUN!!!" vs. a fair challenge http://news.slashdot.org/comme...
* I find it UTTERLY HILARIOUS seeing a bullshit artist mere talk TROLLING done zero loser like you has the NERVE to state what you did - especially after you RAN in that link above, gweihir... lol!
You don't HAVE the ability to code & the link above evidences it - you're a bullshit blowhard, nothing more - a MERE TECHIE MENIAL @ best/most!
(FACT: Minus coders like myself, you TECHIE or NETWORK ADMIN MENIALS ARE HELPLESS - just as you've SHOWN yourself to be in that link above!)
APK
P.S.=> Keep on shooting your blowhard done nothing in computing mouth off gweihir - I'll be RIGHT THERE AGAIN to expose your crap yet again (have fun with the shame you'll have to publicly endure here & YOU STARTED IT WITH ME YOU USELESS TROLLING LOSER WITH NO SKILLS BUT LOTS OF MERE "TALK", lmao)... apk
"Run, Forrest: RUN!!!" vs. a fair challenge http://news.slashdot.org/comme...
* I find it UTTERLY HILARIOUS seeing a bullshit artist mere talk TROLLING done zero loser like you has the NERVE to state what you did - especially after you RAN in that link above, gweihir... lol!
You don't HAVE the ability to code & the link above evidences it - you're a bullshit blowhard, nothing more - a MERE TECHIE MENIAL @ best/most!
(FACT: Minus coders like myself, you TECHIE or NETWORK ADMIN MENIALS ARE HELPLESS - just as you've SHOWN yourself to be in that link above!)
APK
P.S.=> Keep on shooting your blowhard done nothing in computing mouth off gweihir - I'll be RIGHT THERE AGAIN to expose your crap yet again (have fun with the shame you'll have to publicly endure here & YOU STARTED IT WITH ME YOU USELESS TROLLING LOSER WITH NO SKILLS BUT LOTS OF MERE "TALK", lmao)... apk
"Run, Forrest: RUN!!!" vs. a fair challenge http://news.slashdot.org/comme...
* I find it UTTERLY HILARIOUS seeing a bullshit artist mere talk TROLLING done zero loser like you has the NERVE to state what you did - especially after you RAN in that link above, gweihir... lol!
You don't HAVE the ability to code & the link above evidences it - you're a bullshit blowhard, nothing more - a MERE TECHIE MENIAL @ best/most!
(FACT: Minus coders like myself, you TECHIE or NETWORK ADMIN MENIALS ARE HELPLESS - just as you've SHOWN yourself to be in that link above!)
APK
P.S.=> Keep on shooting your blowhard done nothing in computing mouth off gweihir - I'll be RIGHT THERE AGAIN to expose your crap yet again (have fun with the shame you'll have to publicly endure here & YOU STARTED IT WITH ME YOU USELESS TROLLING LOSER WITH NO SKILLS BUT LOTS OF MERE "TALK", lmao)... apk
"Run, Forrest: RUN!!!" vs. a fair challenge http://news.slashdot.org/comme...
* I find it UTTERLY HILARIOUS seeing a bullshit artist mere talk TROLLING done zero loser like you has the NERVE to state what you did - especially after you RAN in that link above, gweihir... lol!
You don't HAVE the ability to code & the link above evidences it - you're a bullshit blowhard, nothing more - a MERE TECHIE MENIAL @ best/most!
(FACT: Minus coders like myself, you TECHIE or NETWORK ADMIN MENIALS ARE HELPLESS - just as you've SHOWN yourself to be in that link above!)
APK
P.S.=> Keep on shooting your blowhard done nothing in computing mouth off gweihir - I'll be RIGHT THERE AGAIN to expose your crap yet again (have fun with the shame you'll have to publicly endure here & YOU STARTED IT WITH ME YOU USELESS TROLLING LOSER WITH NO SKILLS BUT LOTS OF MERE "TALK", lmao)... apk