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Study: Certain Vaccines Could Make Diseases More Deadly

Posted by samzenpus on from the bad-medicine dept.

sciencehabit writes: New research suggests that vaccines that don't make their hosts totally immune to a disease and incapable of spreading it to others might have a serious downside. According to a controversial study by Professor Andrew Read these so-called "imperfect" or "leaky" vaccines could sometimes teach pathogens to become more dangerous. Sciencemag reports: "The study is controversial. It was done in chickens, and some scientists say it has little relevance for human vaccination; they worry it will reinforce doubts about the merits or safety of vaccines. It shouldn't, says lead author Andrew Read, a biologist at Pennsylvania State University, University Park: The study provides no support whatsoever for the antivaccine movement. But it does suggest that some vaccines may have to be monitored more closely, he argues, or supported with extra measures to prevent unintended consequences."

121 of 195 comments (clear)

  1. Not the best summary... by Etherwalk · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The idea is that if you vaccinate people but they still get the disease and don't get it as badly, they might not die as quickly, or might not die.

    So if they get sick but don't die, the disease has longer to spread.

    So I suppose if you're an Anti-vaxxer it's a great argument for why only you should get vaccinated for highly virulent diseases, but you should just let everyone else die faster.

    1. Re:Not the best summary... by tnk1 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It's a good argument for ensuring you don't have half-assed vaccines, which is a legitimate concern.

      It's the same problem as those people who are prescribed antibiotics and don't finish their full course: that's how you get antibiotic resistant bacteria. You half-assed the treatment, now the surviving bacteria are the individuals with adaptations that were best able to resist the antibiotic. Usually, the disease would progress where the antibiotic vulnerable bacteria would compete. With the help of the incompletely used antibiotic, there's now only resistant bacteria left to infect a new host.

      This is not an anti-vaxxer argument, as those fools think that the vaccine causes problems unrelated to what it is supposed to be preventing (like autism), rather than this case being that the vaccine was simply too weaksauce to do the job right, so it made the problem worse by selecting out the bacteria more likely to succumb to the vaccine-adjusted immune system.

    2. Re:Not the best summary... by friedmud · · Score: 4, Informative

      The idea that government coercion is either morally justified or effective in achieving high vaccination rates is wrong.

      I don't care to debate you about "morally justified" but you're definitely wrong about "effective in achieving high vaccination rates". It's pretty clear that states with more stringent vaccination requirements have higher vaccination rates:

      http://www.pewtrusts.org/en/re...

      "In many but not all states, philosophical exemptions are easier to get than religious exemptions, which typically require parents to cite and explain the religious doctrine in question. Overall, states with philosophical exemptions have 2.5 times the rate of opt-outs than states with only religious exemptions."

    3. Re:Not the best summary... by tnk1 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Government coercion was effective enough to eliminate one or two dread diseases.

      I'm not a big fan of government coercion as the solution to everything, but vaccinations are a public health issue where you are affecting more than yourself whenever you sneeze. That means your refusal to vaccinate your child or yourself might condemn people to death who currently have no choice to avoid interacting with you, and no idea if you're someone they should stay away from.

      We could suggest that those against vaccines go live in a quarantined compound somewhere and not have to have vaccines, but that would seem to be counterproductive for everyone.

      Past outbreaks of diseases currently vaccinated against have probably killed billions of children in the past. There was no home remedy or frontier method of survival. They either somehow fought off diseases like smallpox or measles and possibly were scarred for life, or they simply died. I am not certain what philosophical view, other than some sort of odd Darwinism, would make a return to that scenario attractive.

    4. Re:Not the best summary... by penix1 · · Score: 2

      I'm not a big fan of government coercion as the solution to everything, but vaccinations are a public health issue where you are affecting more than yourself whenever you sneeze. That means your refusal to vaccinate your child or yourself might condemn people to death who currently have no choice to avoid interacting with you, and no idea if you're someone they should stay away from.

      The problem with this statement is it makes one big assumption... Namely that everyone is NOT vaccinated. In short, if coming close to someone not vaccinated worries you then get yourself vaccinated. Or don't you trust the vaccine to protect you if exposed?

      I don't proclaim that vaccines are dangerous but as with any drug I believe there can be side effects. Having said that, I am totally vaccinated having been in the military as well as in Emergency Management. There are simply some professions where it is a must.

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    5. Re:Not the best summary... by DarkSabreLord · · Score: 2

      The problem you miss is that of immunocompromised or otherwise medically exempted individuals - namely, people who don't have a choice whether they get vaccinated or not. It's not just a personal choice - if you choose not to get yourself or your kids vaccinated, you are potentially putting my kids at risk by doing so.

    6. Re:Not the best summary... by mjwx · · Score: 4, Informative

      The idea is that if you vaccinate people but they still get the disease and don't get it as badly, they might not die as quickly, or might not die.

      However this is not how vaccines work. I suspect the fine article got a lot wrong.

      The idea is that if you vaccinate people they have an increased immunity to the pathogen and have a greater chance of not becoming infected if exposed. This slows or stops the spread of the pathogen amongst a community.

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    7. Re:Not the best summary... by Gilgaron · · Score: 2

      Sometimes you only get 'partial immunity'.. like wise you can have some benefit to being administered a vaccine after infection. You'll still get sick, but it won't be as severe. For human medicine this is fine, for livestock having a bunch of sick animals may be as bad as having a bunch of dead ones.

    8. Re:Not the best summary... by alvinrod · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately it's against that law to just leave you to die for your own stupidity in such cases and society invariably ends up bearing the costs. It's far less expensive to vaccinate people than it is to deal with the fallout from not doing so. Up until we can agree that you can contractually permit society ignoring any consequences for your poor decision, the pragmatic solution is to require it.

      One could also take a position that not vaccinating your children is tantamount to neglect as they are incapable of making such a choice at that age and you're merely forcing your own beliefs on the child whether they would objectively want to make that decision in later life or not. Again, were there a system by which society could be absolved of having to deal with the consequences of an individual's poor decisions, this wouldn't be an issue, but we do not live in that world.

      It's not morally justifiable, but the laws that are in place make coercion necessary from a financial point of view. If the government is going to force me to pay for something, I'd like to pay as little as possible and that means vaccinating the population to the greatest extend possible.

    9. Re:Not the best summary... by Antique+Geekmeister · · Score: 5, Insightful

      > The only group that is really helped by other people's vaccinations is a small percentage of the population that cannot get vaccinated.

      You obviously don't remember polio. I do. You apparently also don't remember when the flu killed so many people in winter, and fail to understand how modern cities and especially air traffic make pandemics far more likely and far more dangerous.

    10. Re:Not the best summary... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Watch out, what do they mean by "vaccinated"? There are many vaccines and it appears nearly everyone is already getting them:

      More than 99% of the 2008–2009 birth cohorts who became kindergartners in 2013–14 received at least one vaccine in early childhood

      Anti-vaxxers (who get no vaccines) make up such a small percent of the population as to be a rounding error. Any failure of vaccines to achieve what is claimed for them is due to the vaccines themselves or some problem with implementing the vaccination programs.

    11. Re:Not the best summary... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Forgot the source for the quote: http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6341a1.htm

    12. Re:Not the best summary... by geekymachoman · · Score: 1

      > I'm not a big fan of government coercion as the solution to everything, but vaccinations are a public health issue where you are affecting more than yourself whenever you sneeze.

      How ? Aren't you vaccinated ? If you're vaccinated against flu, and then 5 days later I get the flu and I'm not vaccinated... you still gonna get sick if I sneeze ?

      If we throw that argument out of the window, why on earth would you accept governments forcing people into this ? If I consciously decide not to vaccinate myself and my children, what does that have to do with you ? You're already vaccinated, how can I threaten you ?

    13. Re:Not the best summary... by umafuckit · · Score: 1

      This is not an anti-vaxxer argument, as those fools think that the vaccine causes problems unrelated to what it is supposed to be preventing.

      Indeed, the "anti-vaxxer" argument has nothing to do with the science of vaccines. It has to do with the fundamental right to determine what happens to your own body.

      I don't believe that anti-vaxxers are defenders of such "fundamental rights". Any who make these claims are just using weasel words to lend sympathy to their cause by attaching their motives to a political/moral concept with which some non-anti-vaxxers might agree. In reality they're just conspiracy theorists, who through willful ignorance do not understand vaccination and therefore reject it. IMO those who are defending the "fundamental right to determine what happens to your own body" are people like euthanasia and abortion activists. Anti-vaxxers are just the same class of idiot as those who say they get cancer from Wifi.

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    14. Re:Not the best summary... by rioki · · Score: 1

      I hate it every time some research comes out that tries to shines some light at shortfalls in current research and then it is "controversial" because it "could give an argument to the anti-XYZ". This comes up with vaccine research, climate research and whatnot. I think every person that utters something like that is actually undermining the entire legitimate research community. The forced need to appear to be united give the opponents more suspicion, not less.

    15. Re:Not the best summary... by cheesybagel · · Score: 1

      It's still a moron argument. Any argument that goes by the "if he only died faster none of this would have happened" is a bad argument. Corpses can also spread disease as well FWIW.

    16. Re: Not the best summary... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Babies can't be immunized until after 6 months.
      So you're saying fuck all small infants because I don't give a damn about herd immunization?
      Fuck You!

    17. Re:Not the best summary... by cheesybagel · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Yes. You need to kick the non-vaccinated out of the public school system. Like we used to.

    18. Re:Not the best summary... by cheesybagel · · Score: 1

      all, the vaccinations we're talking about here are for diseases that are rarely fatal and that almost everybody can protect themselves against by getting vaccinated

      BS. Even the common flu kills quite a lot of people every fucking year.

    19. Re:Not the best summary... by cheesybagel · · Score: 1

      Viruses mutate dipshit. The more hosts for the virus the faster it will mutate.

    20. Re:Not the best summary... by cheesybagel · · Score: 3, Informative

      Anti-vaxxers are idiots. Just like that bozo who refused to pay the fire department and then wanted the department to put the fire in his house down.

    21. Re:Not the best summary... by Yoda222 · · Score: 1

      The idea that government coercion is either morally justified or effective in achieving high vaccination rates is wrong.

      This seems very affirmative. It looks like you have access to the absolute moral code. Could you give us a link to this document ? Thank you.

    22. Re:Not the best summary... by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      Okay, let's remove the coercion then and have a proper libertarian solution. No one has to get vaccinated, but anyone who is not vaccinated is liable for and harm done by anyone that they infected with a disease, including joint liability for all outbreaks of that disease where the vaccinated number dropped below the number responsible for herd immunity.

      By all means, go ahead and defend your right to kill people as a result of your negligence.

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    23. Re:Not the best summary... by penix1 · · Score: 1

      The problem you miss is that of immunocompromised or otherwise medically exempted individuals - namely, people who don't have a choice whether they get vaccinated or not.

      Then you just shot down your whole argument that everyone be immunized. Again, if you fear your kid getting a disease then keep your kid away from others or immunize them. You can control that where you can't control the actions (or inaction) of others.

      And to answer the AC below about babies, they inherit the mother's antibodies through the placenta and later through the mother's breast milk. Want to protect your baby, then have the mother immunized.

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    24. Re:Not the best summary... by reboot246 · · Score: 1

      If you kicked them out, then the pro-illegal alien crowd would jump on you with both feet.

      It may not be politically correct to say it, but there are millions of illegals in the U.S. who don't have the required vaccinations. And they're still coming by the tens of thousands.

    25. Re: Not the best summary... by tomhath · · Score: 2

      Not all, but the overwhelming majority of them.

      The measles vaccine isn't perfect, two doses are required and even them it's possible to get the disease. But the chances of it spreading are greatly reduced if everyone is immunized.

      Health officials have immunization records of 43 measles patients; 37 were unimmunized, one had only one shot, and five were fully immunized.

    26. Re:Not the best summary... by MagickalMyst · · Score: 1

      Wars kill many, many more people each year than the flu, polio, etc.

      --
      Political correctness is really just herd psychology pushed by insecure people who desperately seek social conformity.
    27. Re:Not the best summary... by miketheanimal · · Score: 1

      Vaccinations are effectively voluntary today (since anybody can opt out) and we still only have around 200 cases per year and no deaths

      Which are still the results of mass vaccinations of previous generations, and nothing else.

      No, because as the parent post points out, the death rate was about 500 in 500,000 *before* the vaccine was introduced. In the UK it was even lower, the death rate averaged about 75/year over the decade before the single measles vaccine was introduced (1958-68) with a similar birth rate (and hence incidence rate). So, unless you can make an argument that measles has become much more serious over the last 50 years, or there has been some significant societal change, thise figures are upper bounds on what we might expect today.

    28. Re:Not the best summary... by tomhath · · Score: 1

      Not true. MMR vaccine is effective in 95% of children after the first dose, meaning that 5% might still be vulnerable.

      Which is why "fully immunized" means two doses. That's give about 99% protection. Intentionally eaving 5% of the population vulnerable is stupid.

    29. Re: Not the best summary... by miketheanimal · · Score: 1

      If a measles infection 'wipes out' memory cells to a significant degree, then why is it that it was never the case that people contracted, say, mumps more than once? If the wipe-out was true, then you'd expect mumps to be contracted once *or* twice, depending on the order you got them in.

    30. Re:Not the best summary... by miketheanimal · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately it's against that law to just leave you to die for your own stupidity in such cases and society invariably ends up bearing the costs. It's far less expensive to vaccinate people than it is to deal with the fallout from not doing so. Up until we can agree that you can contractually permit society ignoring any consequences for your poor decision, the pragmatic solution is to require it.

      I don't know the situation in the US, but in the UK, the figures show that unvaccinated kids visit the doctor a *lot* less than vaccinated kids (there is even research that uses this fact to explain vaccination/allergy correlation in the raw data), so maybe the non-vacinnating parents should demand a rebate from you.

      One could also take a position that not vaccinating your children is tantamount to neglect as they are incapable of making such a choice at that age and you're merely forcing your own beliefs on the child whether they would objectively want to make that decision in later life or not. Again, were there a system by which society could be absolved of having to deal with the consequences of an individual's poor decisions, this wouldn't be an issue, but we do not live in that world.

      One could also take the reverse position, you are forcing something on them that they might not choose later in life. It's not morally justifiable, but the laws that are in place make coercion necessary from a financial point of view. If the government is going to force me to pay for something, I'd like to pay as little as possible and that means vaccinating the population to the greatest extend possible.

    31. Re:Not the best summary... by Dragonslicer · · Score: 1

      Wars kill many, many more people each year than the flu, polio, etc.

      Maybe in war-torn countries in Africa, but in the United States, influenza kills thousands every year.

    32. Re:Not the best summary... by Dragonslicer · · Score: 2, Funny

      I don't know the situation in the US, but in the UK, the figures show that unvaccinated kids visit the doctor a *lot* less than vaccinated kids

      And as we all know, correlation equals causation. There's no way this could possibly be because parents that don't get their kids vaccinated don't take them to see the doctor for other routine care.

    33. Re:Not the best summary... by TheRaven64 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Most vaccines are not 100% effective. You need a certain percentage of the population to be immune for herd immunity to mean that they have little chance of contracting the disease (and, if they do, a good chance of being an isolated statistic rather than the centre of an outbreak). It only takes a few percent opting out of the vaccine to eliminate the herd immunity and make the entire population more vulnerable.

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    34. Re:Not the best summary... by arth1 · · Score: 1

      Do you mean to say that you get infected by consent???

      That used to be the case. Kids were sent to measles parties to catch the disease. Most would survive.

      The inherent problem with vaccines is that they really are safe and effective. They save lives.

      This is great for the individuals who gets saved, but it's very short-term thinking and harms the herd long-term.

      Without vaccinations, childhood diseases kill more weaker individuals than stronger ones. The healthier you are, the greater are your overall chance of reaching reproductive age and reproducing. It's an evolutionary advantage to not have mutations that give you an increased risk of dying should you contract diseases.
      With vaccinations, everybody gets the same chance, including those who would have been culled.
      The herd becomes less healthy in the following generation, because there is no culling.

      There may very well be a correlation between autism and vaccines, but that isn't the link the anti-vaxxers see. The link is that the parent generation had less culling due to vaccinations, which increases the risk of the child generation inheriting genes making them susceptible to a wider range of problems, including autism, allergies and other conditions that have become more commonplace.

      We have pretty much stopped evolution by making the chance of surviving and having a chance to reproduce close to 100%. Not only for ourselves, but other species as well. Evolution has become an enemy, and is well on the way to becoming history.

      The only ethical solution I can see that causes neither unnecessary suffering for future children, nor an unfair advantage for the rich tribes, is to let culling take place. The reproductive rate of humans is high enough to compensate for a fair amount of childhood deaths. A smaller ratio of children dying now may be preferable to a larger ratio of children suffering from problems in the future. Let a statistically significant number of children die. As long as we don't engage in eugenics by deciding who gets a better chance than others, evolution will tally the score.

    35. Re:Not the best summary... by arth1 · · Score: 1

      Maybe in war-torn countries in Africa, but in the United States, influenza kills thousands every year.

      Why is this a problem? As long as the death toll isn't large enough to be a significant cause of a dwindling population, what's the long-term harm?

      We all have survival instincts, but death isn't something to fear. Everyone will die. If a small percentage die sooner rather than later, there's no harm to humanity, which easily compensates due to the high human reproduction rate. A risk of dying before old age adds spice to life, and prompts the individual to put more meaning into it here and now.

    36. Re:Not the best summary... by StikyPad · · Score: 1

      No, it's not the same problem at all. *No* vaccine is perfect, whether it's because the pathogen mutates slightly, or because the immune system doesn't learn that the (harmless) pathogen in the vaccine was harmful. The way vaccines work isn't perfect immunity, but herd immunity. They work well enough to prevent outbreaks, which is a public health concern, and if you're one of the lucky ones for whom the vaccine worked, then you're better off too. Unfortunately, there's no way to know, beforehand, whether your individual vaccination will work without deliberately exposing you to the pathogen, which is both unethical, and an unnecessary risk.

      Some pathogens mutate quickly, like the flu, so vaccines are only good for a very limited time. We know this. But they will mutate with or without a vaccinated population, so it doesn't make sense not to vaccinate just because it won't be perfect.

      Antibiotic resistance is a problem, but again perfect use of antibiotics is only a mitigating factor for resistance, not a panacea, because no antibiotic is perfect either. At some point we will need to find either new antibiotics, or alternative treatments. It's actually much easier to develop new vaccines than to find new antibiotics.

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    37. Re:Not the best summary... by NostalgiaForInfinity · · Score: 1

      Flu vaccination is voluntary, and polio vaccination is effectively voluntary as well. So, the argument that government coercion is needed falls apart.

      Vaccinations are a good thing. Most people understand that. That's why it is unnecessary to give government the power to force people to get vaccinated.

    38. Re:Not the best summary... by arth1 · · Score: 1

      Corpses can also spread disease as well FWIW.

      Only if you keep them around. Which is chiefly a religious and cultural choice, not a scientific one.

    39. Re:Not the best summary... by NostalgiaForInfinity · · Score: 1

      Which are still the results of mass vaccinations of previous generations, and nothing else.

      What's your point? Of course, people should get vaccinated. But the current system where anybody can opt out is obviously working fine. The current statistics show that it is working.

    40. Re:Not the best summary... by NostalgiaForInfinity · · Score: 1

      It's not morally justifiable, but the laws that are in place make coercion necessary from a financial point of view.

      That's the same kind of arguments used for forced sterilization, segregation, and forced euthanasia, both in the US and in Nazi Germany. You are an evil fuck.

      And you aren't even consistent. A few hundred measles cases under our current (effectively voluntary) vaccination system cost very little. One of the biggest financial drains on our medical system is obesity; so, by your reasoning, government should coerce obese people to lose weight, by any means necessary: stiff penalties, forced diets, forced surgeries, internment in weight loss camps.

    41. Re:Not the best summary... by NostalgiaForInfinity · · Score: 1

      Okay, let's remove the coercion then and have a proper libertarian solution. No one has to get vaccinated, but anyone who is not vaccinated is liable for and harm done by anyone that they infected with a disease

      No, that is not a libertarian solution at all. The libertarian solution is to let people choose whether to get vaccinated or not, and whether to associate with people who are vaccinated or not. When it comes to vaccinations, that means nothing more than privatizing schools, a good idea for many reasons. Private schools can impose whatever vaccination requirements they want as a condition of attendance. Almost all schools would impose strict vaccination requirements, far stricter than our public schools currently do.

    42. Re:Not the best summary... by NostalgiaForInfinity · · Score: 1

      I have access to history and I know what happens when you give government that power: forced sterilization, eugenics, forced euthanasia; all of those state actions were justified by the same reasoning as forced vaccinations. That's not my hypothesis, it's the reasoning SCOTUS used:

      We have seen more than once that the public welfare may call upon the best citizens for their lives. It would be strange if it could not call upon those who already sap the strength of the State for these lesser sacrifices, often not felt to be such by those concerned, to prevent our being swamped with incompetence. It is better for all the world, if instead of waiting to execute degenerate offspring for crime, or to let them starve for their imbecility, society can prevent those who are manifestly unfit from continuing their kind. The principle that sustains compulsory vaccination is broad enough to cover cutting the Fallopian tubes.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

      I'm sure there are still psychopaths who think that those things are good ideas, but to most people, it is self-evident that forced sterilizations were wrong, and since they were sustained "by the same principle" as compulsory vaccination, that principle itself must be wrong.

    43. Re:Not the best summary... by NostalgiaForInfinity · · Score: 1

      Even the common flu kills quite a lot of people every fucking year.

      Yes, and the common flu has higher mortality rates than measles even in the unvaccinated.

    44. Re: Not the best summary... by printman · · Score: 1

      My son got his first vaccinations at 1 month... By the time he was 2 years old he had over a dozen... We *did* choose to stretch out the vaccination schedule a bit (to avoid giving 4 vaccinations at once, etc.) and we've been very careful to screen which drug company's vaccines we use as many contain "non-medical' ingredients that are actually drugs (below the minimum dosage for adults) that are not otherwise approved for use in children.

      Sadly, drug companies are not liable for adverse reactions to vaccines (you pay a small fee for every dosage to fund a government-backed plan instead), and (to the lay person at least) it seems like a lot of new vaccines are getting rushed out and pushed on the population at large without regard to the risk/reward or efficacy of the vaccine - I'm thinking particularly of the often-required chicken pox vaccine that is widely marketed as preventing shingles later in life, but which the drug company explicitly disclaims prevention of both chicken pox and shingles (on the drug info sheet we got from the doctor after she gave the vaccine to our son).

      IMHO, the government, drug companies, and doctors have all done a really bad job of educating the public - clearly forcing people to vaccinate their children against everything without regard to safety or personal concerns, and telling parents that have concerns that they are stupid and that they will call child services if they don't give their child a particular vaccination, is not the right approach.

      --
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    45. Re:Not the best summary... by arth1 · · Score: 1

      You don't understand the difference between risk of death and certainty of death? Or evolution vs eugenics, for that matter?

    46. Re:Not the best summary... by smooth+wombat · · Score: 1

      Yes, the government should force the obese to get their act together, especially since that same government is now forcing me to pay for their medical care whether I want to or not.

      The same for drug users, smokers and alcoholics.

      If the idea is to make people more healthy by forcing them to hand over their money to a private company then to get the most bang for the buck forced government coercion to get people to live more healthy lives is the way to go.

      --
      We will bankrupt ourselves in the vain search for absolute security. -- Dwight D. Eisenhower
    47. Re:Not the best summary... by arth1 · · Score: 1

      Oh Adolf, welcome back, we thought you were dead.

      Those who do not know history are doomed to repeat it.
      You are very ignorant. Nazism sought to control who got to live and who didn't. That's called eugenics, which I find despicable.

      Taking away the ability to control who lives is not eugenics. If anything, it's the opposite.
      Right now, parents in the rich world will vaccinate our child, without also ensuring that a poor child gets vaccinated.

      There are an awful lot of mini-Hitlers around who will jump at a chance to give their sub-tribe an advantage. Whether it's by killing the children of others or by increasing the survival rate of your own more than of others, the result is the same.
      I happen to abhor that.

    48. Re:Not the best summary... by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      Right, because the only place that people interact is at school.

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      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    49. Re:Not the best summary... by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      As I was saying: If your kids are immunocompromised, they have a lot more to worry about than measles. That is, there are many other diseases they have to worry about besides the few we can vaccinate against.

      Why do you keep talking about immunocompromised people? The measles vaccine, for example, only works in about 95% of cases, the other people are not immunised. They have no other autoimmune issues and, unless exposed to the measles virus, will have no issues.

      Almost everybody in "the entire population" who is vaccinated is protected by the vaccine and hence not "vulnerable". So "the entire population" doesn't become more vulnerable.

      If immunity drops below about 93% for measles, then the population no longer benefits from herd immunity. This means that anyone who is not immune (including those 5% who were vaccinated but didn't receive the benefit) is at a much higher risk of being infected. It also means more infections, which increases the probability of the disease mutating, which affects everyone. People who are infected then have compromised immune systems and so are likely to suffer from other infections, which can then spread to the rest of the population.

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      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    50. Re:Not the best summary... by nine-times · · Score: 1

      The only group that is really helped by other people's vaccinations is a small percentage of the population that cannot get vaccinated.

      Not true. It's true that there are some people who cannot be vaccinated, and those people are helped by other people being vaccinated. Aside from those people, vaccines are not 100% effective. Some portion of the people who are vaccinated may still get sick if exposed to the virus, and those people are also protected by other people getting vaccinated.

      In both of these cases, you can say, "it's a small percentage of the population." Small percentages of the population, however, can still represent a lot of people. If something kills 1% of the US population, that's still about 3 million people.

    51. Re:Not the best summary... by Agent0013 · · Score: 1

      The problem you miss is that of immunocompromised or otherwise medically exempted individuals - namely, people who don't have a choice whether they get vaccinated or not. It's not just a personal choice - if you choose not to get yourself or your kids vaccinated, you are potentially putting my kids at risk by doing so.

      Maybe those people should go live in a quarantined compound somewhere.

      --

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    52. Re:Not the best summary... by Agent0013 · · Score: 1

      Most vaccines are not 100% effective. You need a certain percentage of the population to be immune for herd immunity to mean that they have little chance of contracting the disease (and, if they do, a good chance of being an isolated statistic rather than the centre of an outbreak). It only takes a few percent opting out of the vaccine to eliminate the herd immunity and make the entire population more vulnerable.

      Except it looks like the whole herd immunity thing is a theory without any evidence. In China, where it is mandatory to get vaccinated, they still have massive outbreaks. There are plenty of cases in the U.S. also where the vaccine itself was responsible for the outbreak and 95% of the UNVACCINATED local population went uninfected. It is thought to be unacceptable to do a double blind study with vaccines because they are considered to work. So you can't even prove if these things work because we have assumed they do. Nice scientific method there!

      --

      -- ssoorrrryy,, dduupplleexx sswwiittcchh oonn.. -Quote found on actual fortune cookie.
    53. Re:Not the best summary... by Agent0013 · · Score: 1

      Don't forget about how Merck was found to be lying about the effectiveness of the Mumps part of the MMR. It is more like 35% effective. So you can believe the lies if you want. I would rather have the facts and would like to see true scientific studies done on these things. Something like a double blind study, which is not allowed with vaccines since they are assumed to work, so we can't withhold treatment of them for a study. Sounds like circular reasoning to me.

      --

      -- ssoorrrryy,, dduupplleexx sswwiittcchh oonn.. -Quote found on actual fortune cookie.
    54. Re:Not the best summary... by NeutronCowboy · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Considering that the US average vaccination rate is equal to or below that of the places where the illegal immigrants are coming from, you're wrong.

      http://www.washingtonpost.com/...

      --
      Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
    55. Re: Not the best summary... by laie_techie · · Score: 1

      My son got his first vaccinations at 1 month... By the time he was 2 years old he had over a dozen... We *did* choose to stretch out the vaccination schedule a bit (to avoid giving 4 vaccinations at once, etc.) and we've been very careful to screen which drug company's vaccines we use as many contain "non-medical' ingredients that are actually drugs (below the minimum dosage for adults) that are not otherwise approved for use in children.

      You did read the post you were replying to, right? It was talking specifically about the measles outbreak at Disneyland. My son is 10 months old, so I'm going through this right now. Different vaccines are tested as "safe" for different ages. We have been following the CDC's Recommended Immunizations for Children from Birth through 6 years old. The first vaccine (HepB) is given within days of being born. MMR (Measles, Mumps, Rubella) is not recommended until the infant is 12 months old.

    56. Re:Not the best summary... by NostalgiaForInfinity · · Score: 1

      Why do you keep talking about immunocompromised people?

      Because I was responding to DarkSabreLord, who raised that point.

      If immunity drops below about 93% for measles, then the population no longer benefits from herd immunity.

      That's wrong. Figures such as "93%" come from simplistic models that treat the population as some big pool with random mixing. That's not what real populations look like or how diseases get transmitted in the real world.

      The measles vaccine, for example, only works in about 95% of cases,

      That's wrong. After the usual course of vaccinations, 99% of people are immune. And even those that are not fully immune are still protected to some degree.

      This means that anyone who is not immune (including those 5% who were vaccinated but didn't receive the benefit) is at a much higher risk of being infected.

      Even people who are not protected but otherwise healthy are at risk only of contracting a febrile illness that is less serious than a flu, one among hundreds of such illnesses that we can't vaccinate against anyway. So, that's pretty much irrelevant.

      People who are infected then have compromised immune systems and so are likely to suffer from other infections, which can then spread to the rest of the population.

      You reason about science with a combination of misconceptions. half truths, exaggerations, and invalid inferences. You're just like the people who said that we should sterilize "imbeciles" and "euthanize the disabled" in order to prevent a drain on society's resources and keep the race clean.

    57. Re:Not the best summary... by NostalgiaForInfinity · · Score: 1

      Right, because the only place that people interact is at school.

      That's the only place vaccine requirements are currently being considered. Furthermore, most other places are already private and could impose vaccination requirements if they wanted to.

    58. Re:Not the best summary... by laie_techie · · Score: 1

      Don't forget about how Merck was found to be lying about the effectiveness of the Mumps part of the MMR. It is more like 35% effective. So you can believe the lies if you want. I would rather have the facts and would like to see true scientific studies done on these things. Something like a double blind study, which is not allowed with vaccines since they are assumed to work, so we can't withhold treatment of them for a study. Sounds like circular reasoning to me.

      Merck was accused of lying about the effectiveness of the Mumps component of the MMR. Mumps Vaccine Effective Waning Immunity has links to three peer-reviewed research papers on the effectiveness of the effectiveness of the mumps component of the MMR vaccine and found it to be about 85-88%. These studies had nothing to do with Merck, so whether they were fudging numbers or not is irrelevant.

    59. Re:Not the best summary... by ToddInSF · · Score: 1

      "It's a good argument for ensuring you don't have half-assed vaccines, which is a legitimate concern."

      At one point the FDA was ready to approve an HIV vaccine if clinical trials proved it to be just 30% effective. There was no outcry from the medical or scientific community at the time. The medical and scientific communities did not give a fuck about the consequences, and STILL do not.

      People are right to be extremely concerned about the state of vaccine science and research, and the role industry is playing to corrupt the regulatory agencies that are responsible with protecting the public health.

    60. Re:Not the best summary... by NostalgiaForInfinity · · Score: 1

      Aside from those people, vaccines are not 100% effective.

      That is included in the phrase of "those who cannot get vaccinated".

      In both of these cases, you can say, "it's a small percentage of the population." Small percentages of the population, however, can still represent a lot of people. If something kills 1% of the US population, that's still about 3 million people.

      Measles isn't Ebola, it is very rarely fatal, and pretty much never fatal unless there are other conditions present. Even pre-vaccination, there were about 500 fatalities per year in the US. That's a fraction of the number of deaths due to flu after flu vaccination. Today, with effectively voluntary vaccination, there are no measles deaths at all.

      Measles vaccination is a non-issue and non-risk. Using it to advance the principle that government can force people to inject stuff against their objections by exaggerating and fabricating numbers like "killing 3 million people" as if they had anything to do with measles is outrageously dishonest and deceptive.

    61. Re:Not the best summary... by nine-times · · Score: 1

      That is included in the phrase of "those who cannot get vaccinated".

      So in your head, some people who got vaccinated should be included in the classification "those who cannot get vaccinated. Well that says a lot about the strength of your argument.

      Measles vaccination is a non-issue and non-risk. Using it to advance the principle that government can force people to inject stuff against their objections by exaggerating and fabricating numbers like "killing 3 million people" as if they had anything to do with measles is outrageously dishonest and deceptive.

      I didn't claim that measles would kill 3 million people. I was using simple math to point out that "a small percentage of the population" might still include a whole lot of people.

    62. Re:Not the best summary... by rhazz · · Score: 1

      in the UK, the figures show that unvaccinated kids visit the doctor a *lot* less than vaccinated kids

      Tell me about it! My infant son has been to the doctor 4 times this year just to get his vaccination shots.

    63. Re:Not the best summary... by anmre · · Score: 1

      if you fear your kid getting a disease then keep your kid away from others or immunize them

      Ignoring the shear absurdity of your suggestion, that's not the point. For the life of me, I cannot understand people who refuse to listen to science. The CDC is your friend. Seriously, please read this.

      You need to learn about "hurd immunity". Here, I'll quote the NIH (another friend) for you:

      When a critical portion of a community is immunized against a contagious disease, most members of the community are protected against that disease because there is little opportunity for an outbreak. Even those who are not eligible for certain vaccines—such as infants, pregnant women, or immunocompromised individuals—get some protection because the spread of contagious disease is contained. This is known as "community immunity."

      We all love a good conspiracy theory, but this one has been thoroughly debunked. By advocating for non-immunization, you're putting innocents at risk.

    64. Re:Not the best summary... by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      The government's been forcing you to pay for other people's medical care for a long time, I think since Reagan was President. If a desperately sick person goes to an emergency room, that person has to be treated and stabilized. This is about the least efficient health care system imaginable, and getting people to see regular doctors before they're that sick is going to save money.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    65. Re:Not the best summary... by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      You seem to think that there's a single "stronger" vs. "weaker" spectrum, that there's some inherent virtue to evolution, that eliminating one source of selection pressure can stop it, and that significant evolution can take place in a generation or two. None of these are true..

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    66. Re:Not the best summary... by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      Having vaccination required for schools keeps the number of vaccinated people up. Remove that and vaccination percentages are going to drop, and just gong to a store is going to expose you to something nasty.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    67. Re:Not the best summary... by NostalgiaForInfinity · · Score: 1

      Having vaccination required for schools keeps the number of vaccinated people up

      Vaccination is already not required for schools because there is an easy opt-out, yet vaccination numbers are high and there are few measles cases and no fatalities. Yet, despite these facts, people are arguing for removing the opt-out provisions.

    68. Re:Not the best summary... by NostalgiaForInfinity · · Score: 1

      I didn't claim that measles would kill 3 million people.

      No, you didn't claim anything of substance. But you made up and mentioend the number of "killing 3 million people" because it sounds scary. You're dishonest and a fear monger.

    69. Re:Not the best summary... by Anonymous+Cow+Ward · · Score: 1

      If your kids are immunocompromised, they have a lot more to worry about than measles, and letting them live "normal lives" in hopes that universal vaccination is going to protect them is utterly irresponsible on your part.

      Well, that depends on the extent to which they are immunocompromised. Some people won't be able to mount an effective response against most things that still cause disease in healthy people, but can still move around and not be killed by ordinarily benign things.

      --
      Examine even your most deeply held beliefs. Nobody is always right.
    70. Re:Not the best summary... by Anonymous+Cow+Ward · · Score: 1

      Yeah, most of that isn't true.

      --
      Examine even your most deeply held beliefs. Nobody is always right.
    71. Re:Not the best summary... by RockDoctor · · Score: 1

      It's the same problem as those people who are prescribed antibiotics and don't finish their full course: that's how you get antibiotic resistant bacteria.

      Even with a population composed entirely of people who take the full antibiotic course, you'd still develop bacterial resistance, but you'd do it a lot slower. Unless your antibiotic dose is so high that you kill every single solitary one of the bacteria in your body, then the antibiotic will change the structure of the bacterial population by killing off the most susceptible strains first. Since most antibiotics have significant side effects at high doses (trashing gut bacterial populations, skin bacteria, sometimes out right toxicity to humans), the dosage is set at a level that will provide sufficient effect without excessive side effects. That dosage information one of the significant outputs from later stages of human testing.

      Fisher and Haldane, and later Hamilton, set up the neo-Darwinian synthesis understanding of evolution with significant amounts of statistics because evolution is a thing that happens to populations, not individuals. You really do need to keep awareness of the underlying population statistics when you're thinking about evolution.

      --
      Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"
    72. Re:Not the best summary... by Bugamn · · Score: 1

      You need to learn about "hurd immunity".

      Can I use Linux immunity instead? That one is taking too long.

  2. The argument is "leaky" at best too by Opportunist · · Score: 4, Informative

    Pathogens don't "learn". They evolve, ok. They adapt, ok. But they aren't sentient. They are not thinking. And especially they aren't thinking "hey, if they vaccinate, they won't die anyway, at least not as fast, so let's get more deadly!" This isn't the fucking Pandemic flash game for crying out loud!

    There is no interest of killing a host for a parasite. It's an side effect. Unintended, and actually harmful for the parasite in the long run. Just like poisoning the seas is harmful for us. We ain't some comic book villain who does it for ... well, for being evil. We do it 'cause it cuts costs. The oil spill is only the side effect, not the reason we do it.

    So yes, they COULD get more deadly because we don't die as fast and a more deadly mutated strain would kill itself off with the host if there was no vaccination. But that is hardly an argument against vaccination. It only means that at worst we're with vaccination where we are now without. AT WORST. If, and only if, the pathogens mutate in such a way that they get more deadly. Which is neither in their interest nor anything they would (evolutionary) strive for.

    What's the benefit for a pathogen to be more deadly? Killing the host is actually bad for it, since that ends spreading (with this host at least).

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    1. Re:The argument is "leaky" at best too by sjames · · Score: 1

      Machines are said to learn, but are not sentient and do not think. Memory plastic isn't sentient either.

    2. Re:The argument is "leaky" at best too by ITRambo · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I don't think the strains that survive an incomplete round of antibiotics have mutated. They are simply the strongest ones that are now given a chance to multiply, since someone didn't take their complete prescription. These stronger bacteria can now be exposed to more antibiotics and the strongest again survive and reproduce. Soon we have antibiotic resistant bacteria strains that otherwise would have been a tiny percentage of the population. They haven't "learned" anything. It's survival of the fittest only.

    3. Re:The argument is "leaky" at best too by Obfuscant · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I don't think the strains that survive an incomplete round of antibiotics have mutated.

      You then proceed to describe exactly the process through which the antibiotic sensitive bacteria die so the mutations that have resistance become dominant. Where do you think those antibiotic resistant bacteria got their immunity to that specific antibiotic? They didn't order it from Amazon Prime, just sayin.

      It's survival of the fittest only.

      And those "fittest" become so because ...?

    4. Re:The argument is "leaky" at best too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      I don't think the strains that survive an incomplete round of antibiotics have mutated.

      In a certain sense, all bacteria are mutating all the time: with each cell division there are copy errors (mutations) in the DNA.

      But antibiotic resistance doesn't generally evolve de novo, from nothing, in a person taking antibiotics. Most antibiotic resistance is conveyed on sets of proteins that are grouped together on pieces of DNA that are occasionally transferred between bacteria.

      It's basically a big (chemical) war between all the various microbes out there in nature. And this war has been going on for billions of years. A new family of antibiotics might easily take millions of years to evolve. And then the corresponding resistance genes might easily take millions of more years to evolve. But then, once these genes have evolved, they are occasionally transferred to other bacteria via a variety of mechanisms - including viruses that infect bacteria.

      Now, having extra DNA incurs a cost, and functionality that is not needed is also generally lost through genetic drift. So, if a particular strain of bacteria doesn't need to be resistant to a particular antibiotic then, over time, it will eventually lose the antibiotic resistance genes. But, once you put it back under the selective pressure of an antibiotic, then if any individual members of the strain happen to absorb a piece of DNA encoding the antibiotic resistance genes from somewhere in the environment it will rapidly overgrow all the members of it's strain without resistance.

      It's often implied on quais-scientific websites like Slashdot that antibiotic resistance is caused by medical doctors prescribing antibiotics to children with viral infections. But the picture is a lot more complicated. If a child actually does have a bacterial infection and the doctor fails to prescribe antibiotics and the child goes on to infect a number of other people and some of those people end up in the hospital where there's lots of DNA for antibiotic resistance genes being transferred around then antibiotic resistance is made worse. If there is one generalization that could be made about antibiotic resistance, it would be that it's a problem when people rely solely on antibiotics rather than also using other methods like aseptic techniques and quarantine.

      And that's also a point that can be made about vaccines. Yes, vaccines are a very useful tool in the fight against infectious disease. But it's also a mistake to rely solely on vaccines for protection. Screening and quarantine and many other approaches should be used in parallel to vaccines. You want something like a maximum security prison for pathogens: not just locked cells, or barbed-wire fences, or guards with guns individually - but all used together so that if one fails then the others can still do the job.

    5. Re: The argument is "leaky" at best too by sjames · · Score: 1

      That OP is silly to call out the use of the term 'learn' for a non-sentient thing.

    6. Re:The argument is "leaky" at best too by mjwx · · Score: 1

      What's the benefit for a pathogen to be more deadly? Killing the host is actually bad for it, since that ends spreading (with this host at least).

      Our assumptions about evolution is that its driven by the need to survive. When a pathogen is faced with a change in their environment bought on by a pharmaceutical treatment it is possible for a pathogen to adapt to fight or avoid that treatment. This does not mean they'll automatically adapt (they're not the Borg), in fact in most cases the opposite can occur where the pathogen is completely (or nearly completely) wiped out such as the case of smallpox.

      Evolution does not consider risks and benefits, changes are random. Sometimes these changes can cause a species to die out by destroying its environment. As for pathogens, killing the host is often required for a pathogen to spread, especially for pathogens that only spread through direct contact (not air, food or water borne), not killing the host by producing symptoms that allows the pathogen to spread is going to result in the pathogen dying out.

      In nature, when there is a rapid change in the environment, most species end up dying. This is the bad part of anti-biotics as its a similar event on a mirco scale. They're indiscriminate, so they'll kill the micro-organisms in our body that aren't just benign but helpful. For this reason alone we should try not to not over subscribe anti-biotics, however anti-biotic resistant pathogens are also a consideration.

      --
      Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
    7. Re:The argument is "leaky" at best too by tsa · · Score: 1

      That's the wrong interpretation of "fittest." I don't know who coined the phrase (it certainly wasn't Darwin) but in the context of evolution "fittest" means the individual organism that is best suited to the environment it lives in, which is not necessarily the strongest individual.

      --

      -- Cheers!

    8. Re:The argument is "leaky" at best too by fermion · · Score: 1
      Unfortunately even science people are afraid of using the word evolution because some religious whacko might want to shoot them. So other words are used like 'learned'.

      In fact the human vaccines to treat the most virulent viruses, the one's that don't kill quickly but rather maim, have worked well. Small pox is eradicated, and Polio has not been seen in Nigeria for a year. Some people get sick from Vaccines, but they likely would have the most susceptible and the carriers anyway.

      What is being seen is that vaccines used in livestock for purposes other than immunization is having significant negative side effects.

      To be fair we are seeing some drug resistant strains that making people sick, but those are most bacteria, and are due to the routine use of antibacterials, even when there is little evidence that there is a bacterial infection.

      --
      "She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
    9. Re:The argument is "leaky" at best too by Antique+Geekmeister · · Score: 1

      > evolution does not consider risks and benefits, changes are random

      Interestingly, not all changes are random. There are some fascinating changes in DNA triggered by environment, many of them studied as "epigenetics". And there are certainly changes in organisms that are defensive responses to environment. The darkening of skin under sunlight is a classic example. Evolution occurs at _many_ levels. These include environmental, biological, behavioral, cultural.

    10. Re:The argument is "leaky" at best too by houghi · · Score: 1

      It might be confusing. The species mutates, the individual bacteria don't. Instead of mutation, it would be better to use evolve.

      However that could open a whole new can of worms in the USofA or at least in some states.

      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    11. Re:The argument is "leaky" at best too by tomhath · · Score: 1

      The argument is that some of the organisms have a slightly higher resistance to the host's natural defense system. If the vaccine doesn't cause that system to kill all of the pathogens, the ones that survive are better able to infect other hosts. It's a very plausible theory.

    12. Re:The argument is "leaky" at best too by tomhath · · Score: 1

      That's the wrong interpretation of "fittest."

      That's exactly the definition of "fittest". Able to survive in the environment (in this case exposed to an antibiotic) better than others of the same species. Whether you use the word "fittest" or "strongest" is irrelevant.

    13. Re:The argument is "leaky" at best too by arth1 · · Score: 1

      Exactly, this is something many people seem to get confused by. survival of the fittest really means just that, the organism with the right mix of traits will win.

      No, that's a common misconception.
      The driving force is that the less fit will lose more often. This may sound like it's a different way of phrasing the same thing, but it isn't.

      Say you have three variants of a species: one that can run 4 mph, one that can run 6 mph, and one that can run 8 mph. And a predator that can run 5 mph.
      Evolution doesn't reward the fittest - it increases the risk of the least fit. Given a few generations, the first variant will dwindle, while the two other variants will intermingle and be just as successful.

      Even worse, a predator may arrive that can run 10 mph or throw atl-atls. In which case the fittest doesn't survive, and the species might go extinct. One day something else may move in to fill the niche, but that's not a certainty.

      What doesn't disadvantage an individual to a statistically significant degree isn't evolved away, even if it isn't the "fittest". Which is why men still have nipples, and we all have tailbones.
      And being the fittest doesn't imply survival. It's not very useful against a direct meteor hit. Being less fit and somewhere else may be more beneficial.

      So the saying really shouldn't be "Survival of the fittest", but "Higher death risk for the most unfit" doesn't roll as nicely off the tongue.

    14. Re:The argument is "leaky" at best too by Reziac · · Score: 1

      Not materially different from your immune system killing off the weaker individuals. A few stronger individuals may survive, and then what has your immune system done? Selected for a stronger pathogen.

      I remember a paper from a few years ago which concluded that this was basically how we wound up with deadly diseases in the first place -- being the ones that throughout history have managed to be stronger than the host's immune system.

      Vaccine simply cuts out the stage where lots and lots of hosts get sick or die.

      --
      ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
    15. Re:The argument is "leaky" at best too by arth1 · · Score: 1

      I think you are confusing "fittest" in the "physical fitness" sense and not the specific meaning that has been ascribed to that term when discussing evolution.

      No, i'm not. The problem isn't the word stem "fit", but the qualifier "-est". There is no evolutionary reward for being fittest; nature only tends to weed out those least fit. Which rewards both the fittest and those slightly less fit as long as they're fit enough. The fittest may not be the winners - everyone fit enough have a fair chance at the game, and sometimes the fittest lose to those just fit.

      The tally of the score after the fact is what we call evolution; evolution itself causes no changes, of course.

    16. Re:The argument is "leaky" at best too by RingDev · · Score: 1

      I would correct that even further.

      It isn't about the fittest or death risk, it's about being able to procreate and survive.

      In your species example of the 4, 6, and 10 mph creature. If the live birth rate of the creature declines as their speed increases (musculature takes energy/hormones away from breeding, high speed movements cause more lost pregnancies, etc...) than the 4mph species may actually be the winner as they will out-bread the 6 and 10mph variants.

      Now, throw a 5 mph predator into the mix and the picture may change. If the 4mph variant can still breed fast enough to offset the deaths to the predator and out populate the higher speed variants, then it could still be the winner.

      More likely though, the 6mph critter would win out as it is able to out breed the 10mph critter and would suffer significantly less losses than the 4mph critter to 5mph predators.

      It all comes down to procreation. Which is the basic of the movie Idiocracy.

      -Rick

      --
      "Most people in the U.S. wouldn't know they live in a tyrannical state if it walked up and grabbed their junk." - MyFirs
    17. Re:The argument is "leaky" at best too by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      A deadly disease is an evolutionary disadvantage - for the disease. A disease that keeps the host pretty much healthy and active is going to spread a lot better than one like ebola that incapacitates and kills fast.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    18. Re:The argument is "leaky" at best too by Opportunist · · Score: 1

      That's where pathogens are superior to us. They neither have politics nor religion.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  3. Someone's got to cheer for the little guy by Nethemas+the+Great · · Score: 1

    I mean really, it's in the name of science right?

    --
    Two of my imaginary friends reproduced once ... with negative results.
  4. a counter-example by clovis · · Score: 1

    We have for a real-world counter example the (live) attenuated disease vaccines.
    Foe example, the live polio vaccine and we have the vaccinia vaccine. (anti-smallpox vaccine)
    Have either of those resulted in increasedly virulent strains of those diseases?
    I'm not 100% sure, but the eradicated disease that no one knows about, rinderpest, I believe, used an attenuated vaccine as well.

    1. Re:a counter-example by bobbied · · Score: 1

      Where the Oral polio vaccine does sometimes cause polio, it hasn't yet caused a new more virulent strain of polio to appear. What they say is that sometimes the attenuated Polio virus mutates back into the non-attenuated version and can infect the recipient. The injectable version of the vaccine never causes Polio. This vaccine has been in nearly constant use since it came out in the late 60's, so I think that for Polio at least, the vaccine hasn't had this affect of creating a SUPER POLIO virus, but it's done an excellent job of nearly eliminating Polio for the planet. One year in the US in 1964, 5,000 people DIED from Polio and many more where harmed for life. Last year, there where zero cases of Polio in the whole western hemisphere.

      Between the two types of vaccine, we have successfully eradicated one of the three types of polio virus (Type 2 I believe) and are nearly to the point where "in the wild" infections of polio world wide are getting close to single digits per year. (I believe it as something like 55 total infections, with a significant number being from the oral vaccine.) I'll have to go check the WHO's numbers to be sure though.

      --
      "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
    2. Re:a counter-example by clovis · · Score: 4, Informative

      Yup to what you said.
      I truncated my earlier post because I got a call from downstairs that salad, baked chicken, yellow rice was on the table, and strawberries had been cut up for the home made ice cream in the freezer. I believe my priorities are in order.

      Reading the study makes it clear that what is happening with these chickens is important to the poultry industry, it's not just a what-if study, it's a "this has happened and we need to find out why" kind of thing.

      Anyway, for the benefit of readers who may not have time to read the actual study, in the study, the author mentions what we said, that the increased virulence example that he had discovered for this virus, Marek's virus, had not been seen in human hosts for human diseases.
      From the article:
      "The imperfect-vaccine hypothesis attracted controversy [11–14], not least because human vaccines have apparently not caused an increase in the virulence of their target pathogens"

      Furthermore, the author says:
      "Our data do not demonstrate that vaccination was responsible for the evolution of hyperpathogenic strains of MDV, and we may never know for sure why they evolved in the first place. Clearly, many potentially relevant ecological pressures on virulence have changed with the intensification of the poultry industry."

      The study also discusses similar phenomena that occurred naturally when exposed survivors in the wild harbored an increasedly virulent pathogen due to their acquired partial immunity after exposure.

      What I think is interesting is that the increased virulence of Marbek's is only found relative to unvaccinated chickens. The vaccinated chickens do not experience the increased virulence.
      If there is a lesson in this for human vaccines, it is that when we vaccinate, we need to vaccinate as much of the population as is possible, and that you really do not want to be the unvaccinated ones if an analogue does appear in the human population.

      Anyway, this actual study is interesting, and I don't see any problems with the way it was executed or written. As is so often the case, the problem comes from people extrapolating from a study things that are not found in the study.

  5. this attitude is part of the problem by liquid_schwartz · · Score: 3, Insightful

    ...they worry it will reinforce doubts about the merits or safety of vaccines...

    This attitude about let's not discuss any possible downside because it will give the anti-vax people ammunition is part of the problem. Often forgotten is that a certain percentage of people who get vaccines die. That's an extreme form of take one for the team. At least some of these deaths could probably be prevented but rather than examine that more seriously we get polarized into vaccines are always good with no room for an opposing view. Any opposing views must be the opposite end of the spectrum and must be 100% against vaccines. While vaccines have been outstanding public policy in general that doesn't mean that it couldn't be improved upon. As long as people die from vaccinations there is room for improvement. The fact that we don't seem to be looking into how to lower that number is a problem.

    1. Re:this attitude is part of the problem by Sowelu · · Score: 1

      I'd say that people who insist that evil scientists are refusing lower that mortality rate are a much bigger part of the problem. Um, that research is still happening. The fact that you haven't heard of breakthroughs recently can just as easily mean that 1) nobody bothered to write about it or 2) it's a really hard problem, despite the large amount of money thrown at it.

      Also, maybe it sucks, but if you have limited research resources, it's more efficient to try and develop a new vaccine to save millions of lives than it is to improve an old one and save dozens. It doesn't mean nobody is working on it--just, there's probably fewer. Triage is no fun for anybody.

    2. Re:this attitude is part of the problem by phantomfive · · Score: 4, Informative

      The fact that we don't seem to be looking into how to lower that number is a problem.

      The problem is you don't spend 15 seconds on Google before spouting off. A quick search would have found you this page: Goal 1: Develop New and Improved Vaccines. The national vaccine plan says, "Research to improve existing vaccines also provides opportunities to improve on a range of vaccine characteristics such as efficacy, safety, and vaccine delivery."

      As a bonus to you, the page lists these recent advances in vaccine technology:

      * Advances in scientific understanding of diseases and vaccine responses, especially for pertussis, pneumococcal disease, dengue and hepatitis C.
      * New vaccine production techniques and technologies.

      Research a little and your posts will be more coherent; your brain will be clearer.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    3. Re:this attitude is part of the problem by tsa · · Score: 1

      You should first find out what the people died of. The people who "die from a vaccine" often die from something completely unrelated to the vaccine. If you calculate the number of people who really die because of the vaccine it might be such a small percentage that it's not worth the effort to improve the vaccine.

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      -- Cheers!

    4. Re:this attitude is part of the problem by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      Do you feel more superior now?

      No, but if one more person checks Google a little more often, it will make our conversations on Slashdot that much better.

      --
      "First they came for the slanderers and i said nothing."
    5. Re:this attitude is part of the problem by umafuckit · · Score: 1

      This attitude about let's not discuss any possible downside because it will give the anti-vax people ammunition is part of the problem. Often forgotten is that a certain percentage of people who get vaccines die.

      Your claim has no source so I'll provide one. Summary there is currently no evidence to support a causal relationship between vaccinations and death. So there is no evidence that vaccines are causing the death of anybody at all. Zero deaths given the huge power of the study (13 million people and 24 million vaccinations).

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      soylentnews.org
    6. Re:this attitude is part of the problem by delt0r · · Score: 1

      The most common improvement is to bundle vaccines together. Since the leading cause of unvaccination? is in fact the dozen or so doctors visits in many places. In fact that is also one of the leading costs. Combining 3 into 1 is pretty close to 3 times cheaper.

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      If information wants to be free, why does my internet connection cost so much?
    7. Re:this attitude is part of the problem by Agent0013 · · Score: 1

      Also, maybe it sucks, but if you have limited research resources, it's more efficient to try and develop a new vaccine to save millions of lives than it is to improve an old one and save dozens.

      Or you could just spend more money on your PR and advertising. Like Merck did with the MMR. The Mumps part of the vaccine has been sold to us as being 95% effective. Well it seems they have been lying to the government and the population for a few decades now and it is much closer to 35% effective. Why spend money unwisely when you can control what people believe so easily. And anyone who doubts the effectiveness of a vaccine is labeled an "anti-vaxxer" who should be shot on sight. Yeah, the pro-vaxxers are such GREAT people! It totally makes me want to run out and get more of them just for fun!

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      -- ssoorrrryy,, dduupplleexx sswwiittcchh oonn.. -Quote found on actual fortune cookie.
    8. Re:this attitude is part of the problem by Agent0013 · · Score: 1

      Actually the numbers would be higher if the doctors stopped discounting all the injuries that come up because it can't possibly be from a vaccine. . . They are completely safe and effective. It is thought that vaccine injuries are under-reported by as much as 90%.

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      -- ssoorrrryy,, dduupplleexx sswwiittcchh oonn.. -Quote found on actual fortune cookie.
    9. Re:this attitude is part of the problem by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      That looks like a claim that would require evidence for me to believe.

      --
      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
    10. Re:this attitude is part of the problem by david_thornley · · Score: 1

      The attitude that we don't discuss possible downsides is a result of the problem, not the cause. The problem is that a lot of people are irrationally anti-vaccine, will grab onto any lame evidence that their pre-existing opinions are correct, have some influence on policies, don't vaccinate their children, and spread more irrational anti-vaccine propaganda.

      We saw this in the AGW "debate", in which the apparent slowing of atmospheric warming was jumped on by AGW denialists.

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      "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
  6. Re:"The study provides no support whatsoever" by bobbied · · Score: 1

    The science behind the study does though.

    Only if you think Chickens and Humans share enough commonality in our immune systems and the viruses that infect us will act the same in a human host as in a chicken.

    Of course the anti-vaxxers are accustom to threading together some pretty sketchy evidence to create their "science" to start with, so why not let them have this.... Most of them are still on the "vaccinations cause autism" band wagon, which has about as much evidence as Neil Armstrong not having been to the moon.... Why should this little study be left out?

    --
    "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
  7. Re:Also by bobbied · · Score: 1

    Got to love a joker like you..

    --
    "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
  8. Re:"The study provides no support whatsoever" by Obfuscant · · Score: 2

    Only if you think Chickens and Humans share enough commonality in our immune systems and the viruses that infect us will act the same in a human host as in a chicken.

    If humans and chickens didn't share the biological basis for virus and antibody action, then testing vaccines on chickens would be a waste of time. As animals that evolved on planet Earth, we both have the same mechanisms for mutations, virus replication, and antibody systems, even if the biology isn't identical and not every virus that will infect a chicken will have the same effect on a human. If humans and chickens do NOT share enough commonality, then why do they call it "chicken pox"?

    It's ridiculous to claim that an issue observed in testing a virus on chickens cannot apply to human viruses and their immune systems because one is a chicken and one is not.

  9. Re:"The study provides no support whatsoever" by bobbied · · Score: 1

    It's just as ridiculous to claim that a study on chickens means the same thing happens in humans....

    Does it mean it's worth looking into in primates? Sure... But it's not time to break out in unified song that such stuff happens in humans and all this vaccination stuff is BAD BAD BAD...

    By the Way "Chicken Pox" is in no way related to chickens... Nobody really knows why the word "chicken" is in the name to start with. It didn't come from chickens nor does it infect chickens.... Some theories say it's named after "chickpeas" or perhaps is some mixture of old English words that got morphed into "chicken", but there is no connection to the barnyard animal.

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    "File to fit, pound to insert, paint to match" - Aircraft Maintenance 101
  10. Re:"The study provides no support whatsoever" by Obfuscant · · Score: 1

    It's just as ridiculous to claim that a study on chickens means the same thing happens in humans....

    "Can happen" is not "does happen".

  11. Monday 11PM by tobiah · · Score: 2

    I'm impressed that slashdot can push out this clickbait Monday evening, and that less than 64 people dispute that vaccines suck (excepting those who responded: trolls.)

    --
    "The ability to delude yourself may be an important survival tool" - Jane Wagner -
    1. Re:Monday 11PM by cheesybagel · · Score: 1

      This article was almost as bad as the one about the self-destruct e-mails.

  12. Re:Also by cheesybagel · · Score: 1

    Not nearly as bad as some viruses. Those actually can change your DNA. They are called retro-viruses.

  13. Re:The anti-vavaccine people have a point by cheesybagel · · Score: 1

    Yes. Don't vaccinate them. So they will die faster.

  14. Re:No the same mechanism by KGIII · · Score: 1

    Antibacterials and antibiotics do not work on fungal infections as far as I know? I could VERY EASILY be mistaken though. I am not an expert and only have a limited experience, singular, to go by. Whilst serving in the military I ended up in Eastern Europe and came home with ring worm on my head. There's a special name for them - I do not know it nor do I care. It is a fungus. It took very strong anti-fungal medication (oral as topical did nothing) to rid myself of this. The prescription was rather expensive and caused some complaints but it was (obviously) paid for.

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    "So long and thanks for all the fish."
  15. Hmm... by wardrich86 · · Score: 1

    "...they worry it will reinforce doubts about the merits or safety of vaccines. It shouldn't, says lead author Andrew Read, a biologist at Pennsylvania State University, University Park: The study provides no support whatsoever for the antivaccine movement."

    Clearly this guy doesn't understand how idiots work.

    1. Re:Hmm... by Agent0013 · · Score: 1

      Or perhaps you don't understand how science works. When you find out something about how viruses react to an environment, why can you suddenly claim it does not work the same way with different viruses and another animal. Shouldn't you, you know, actually do a study or something to come to that conclusion?

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      -- ssoorrrryy,, dduupplleexx sswwiittcchh oonn.. -Quote found on actual fortune cookie.
  16. Misleading summary by Archtech · · Score: 1

    The title of the paper is "Imperfect Vaccination Can Enhance the Transmission of Highly Virulent Pathogens". Note the absence of any question marks or qualifiers such as "could...?"

    --
    I am sure that there are many other solipsists out there.
  17. This has been known for a long time by ToddInSF · · Score: 1

    I'm always disappointed when I read remarks about vaccine science from people who are clearly just repeating shit that they've made zero effort to understand.

    In the USA we have corporations that do not give a shit what potential long term harm they do, yet give them the power and authority over us and public policy to push whatever product they want to.

    If you are pro every vaccine, you are an idiot. No reasonable, intelligent competent medical person will tell you that every vaccine is necessary or a good idea.

    You're being dumbed-down int he false name of "science".