Tim Cook: Apple Won't Create 'Converged' MacBook and iPad (independent.ie)

LichtSpektren writes: In an interview with Independent.ie, Apple CEO Tim Cook has stated that Apple is currently not looking to create an iPad that runs Mac OS X. "We feel strongly that customers are not really looking for a converged Mac and iPad, because what that would wind up doing, or what we're worried would happen, is that neither experience would be as good as the customer wants. So we want to make the best tablet in the world and the best Mac in the world. And putting those two together would not achieve either. You'd begin to compromise in different ways." Cook also commented that he does not travel with a Mac anymore, only his iPad Pro and iPhone.

Comments

"We want to make the best Mac in the world"

[mattventura]

Well I don't think making the best Mac in the world is very hard for Apple, there isn't exactly a lot of competition there.

Re:"We want to make the best Mac in the world"

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, if you are of the opinion that Macs have gotten worse, then it may be hard for them to make the best Mac if they're losing to their own previous models.

Re:"We want to make the best Mac in the world"

[Anonymous Coward]

What's amusing to me is, in the '80s and '90s, people raved about the Mac user experience and begged for a more stable & modern OS under the hood.

Now, Apple has a stable and mature OS under the hood and they've thrown out user experience. All that clutter, easy-to-mistrigger interface gestures and confusing features like file versioning. Still no easy way to manage groups, security and keychains.

The first day I started using Mac OS X and a program popped to the foreground while I was typing (my eyes off the screen), interrupting my workflow, I knew that Apple had lost their way.

Re:"We want to make the best Mac in the world"

[ColdWetDog]

You were staring at it wrong.

Re:"We want to make the best Mac in the world"

[macs4all]

No built-in network port on the latest laptops, even the supposedly professional grade MacBook Pro. If you tell me that most users don't need network ports, I and the rest of Slashdot will collectively laugh in your face. And, no, the add-on dongle does not count.

Really?

I can count on about 3 fingers the number of times I've plugged my MacBook Pro into a terrestrial Ethernet cable. And I don't even have 802.11 a/c.

So yes, for those 3 times, an Ethernet Dongle DOES "count".

And if the rest of the Slashdotters are honest, they would agree that, with laptops at least, most people don't bother with plugging them into a terrestrial ethernet connection; but use WiFi instead.

So, yeah, they will probably laugh in my face, simply because they will; but they will be doing it while typing on their WiFi-connected laptops.

So, tell my what has more expansion: A MacBook Pro like the 2013 model I have, that has 1 FW800 port, 1 Ethernet port, 1 Thunderbolt 1 Port (which is almost always dedicated to being a 2nd Monitor Port), and 2 USB 3.0 ports; or the newest MacBook Pros, that have 2 Thunderbolt 2 Ports (a total of FOUR TIMES the bandwidth of my single TB 1 Port), 2 USB 3.0 ports and a dedicated HDMI port?

Sorry, overall, I see that as a major step up in connectivity, despite the "loss" of the FW and Ethernet ports.

And besides, if something decides to torch my internal FW or Ethernet port, I get to replace a multi-hundred-dollar motherboard (probably), or at least require surgery to replace an internal interface board. If something torches an Thunderbolt Ethernet dongle, HOPEFULLY it will only require a quick and relatively inexpensive swap-out of the dongle.

Do I kind of like built-in ports? Sure. But I am intelligent enough to see the clear advantages of dongles, for providing actually MORE "future proofing" and a wider application-envelope, than with dedicated ports. Right now I would definitely trade both of my dedicated ports (which by the way, I thought I wanted!) for another Thunderbolt port.

Re:"We want to make the best Mac in the world"

[elfprince13]

Thankfully my professional grade MacBook Pro docks with my professional grade Thunderbolt Display in the location I most frequently use a network port and would otherwise be port limited, and the display has a dedicated ethernet port. Everywhere else, I have my dongle, and really, I've used it at most 10 times in 2 years.

Re:"We want to make the best Mac in the world"

[azav]

It's been straight downhill with regards to usability for every release after 10.6.8.

Too much animation that you can't turn off.

Terrible colors (glaring painful blue against all white).

This terrible "flat" design means you can't tell what a button is.

Removal of button backgrounds from buttons also means that you can't tell what a button is.

Did I mention too much useless animation that you can't turn off? Because there's too much distracting and useless animation that you can't turn off.

Apple needs to get back to their basics.

Re:"We want to make the best Mac in the world"

[Dog-Cow]

You must be doing some weird things with your Mac. Why don't you just disable the gestures you don't like?

Re:"We want to make the best Mac in the world"

[TheRaven64]

The gestures aren't too bad - you can turn them off. Since the introduction of OS X, there's been some crap that's only for in-store demos and you want to turn off to get real work done. The real issues are more subtle, such as around 10.7 they removed the much-bigger shadow on the foreground window because it 'looked ugly' and then removed most of the other visual clues that a window is foreground, measurably increasing the likelihood of users thinking that the wrong window is foreground. There are lots of things like this, where the UI has slowly regressed and, if anyone bothers to run user studies, they can clearly measure the regressions. Unfortunately, they've also improved a load of things and so there's no simple ordering of OS X versions by usability: each one introduces improvements and regressions.

Re:"We want to make the best Mac in the world"

[Anonymous Coward]

> You must be doing some weird things with your Mac.

Such as using it out of the box?

> Why don't you just disable the gestures you don't like?

I did. I know how to do that, and you know how to do that, but the average user never ever go "WTF? Why did all my windows fly off the screen??"

Re:"We want to make the best Mac in the world"

[Blaskowicz]

The dongle sort of counts, since it is on external PCIe : at least you don't worry about USB overhead or having a crappy NIC.
A buddy has one : ethernet runs to the room, ISP is a cable ISP (no caps and not $100 per month, this is not the US). That makes for crazy low latency, compared to the usual wifi + DSL.

The Macbook pro effectively almost never leaves the place it's chained to : it's way too invaluable. That's the biggest "fail" in that story, it's thin, fragile, a thief magnet and worth about a month's wage.

Re:"We want to make the best Mac in the world"

[Grishnakh]

There are lots of things like this, where the UI has slowly regressed and,

It's like this all across the industry: pretty much all UIs have regressed in recent years.

Re:"We want to make the best Mac in the world"

[vux984]

I can count on about 3 fingers the number of times I've plugged my MacBook Pro into a terrestrial Ethernet cable.

1) Some us want to do things at more than wifi speed at work. You know like transfer large files.

2) Configuring network gear. From routers, to switches, to server ILO and iDRAC etc.

3) Network troubleshooting. (from as simple as ... "is this network jack working" to "enable port mirroring on the switch and analyze a traffic problem")

4) Network hotspot. (I used my laptop as wireless bridge for other wired devices pretty regularly.

I'm fine with the macbook air not having a network jack. I'm fine with the macbook not having a network jack. You trade size for convenience etc. And joe consumer or even pro-sumer doesn't need it much.

But an actual professional, needs an ethernet port, frequently. And a dongle is annoying, forgettable, and fragile.

Pros need connectors. Not dongles. To not have a network port on a pro laptop is a joke. (And I say this as someone with a 2015 MBP.)

You can argue that some CEO waving around a pro doesn't need an ethernet port, and you'd be right. He doesn't need more than an air either. The pro for him is a status symbol.

Apple should capitalize on that ... the macbook elite; a status symblol mac for ceo's that's more expensive than the rest. A macbook pro for people who need to get work done and need it to be able to actually do things and connect to things, and a macbook air for budget conscious users who just need an ultrabook to do email, write essays, and do light spreadsheet, web browsing, maybe even a little on-the-go html editing etc.

The trouble with apple is that the current pro really isn't all that pro. I'd gladly swap the size of my 2015 macbook pro with my 2009 macbook pro if that meant it could have an ethernet port, even more battery, etc.

Some vendors go too far with too many SKUs for it to make any sense. Apple goes the other way ... but also too far. There aren't enough sku's to really cover what people actually need.

And besides, if something decides to torch my internal FW or Ethernet port, I get to replace a multi-hundred-dollar motherboard (probably), or at least require surgery to replace an internal interface board. If something torches an Thunderbolt Ethernet dongle, HOPEFULLY it will only require a quick and relatively inexpensive swap-out of the dongle.

Nonsense. You've still got the thunderbolt port to fry. Adding a dongle doesn't reduce your 'risk surface' it adds to it. Not only can your 'thunderbolt port' go, but now you also have the risk of your dongle getting lost or broken. And as ANYONE who has ever used dongles know, the odds of the dongle being responsible for wrecking your port are pretty high. Because now instead of a nice flush surface you've got a dongle sticking out of your expensive port just waiting to lever your laptops internal guts around.

Right now I would definitely trade both of my dedicated ports (which by the way, I thought I wanted!) for another Thunderbolt port.

I'm having a hard time picturing a situation where you need a *bunch* of thunderbolt ports and you aren't at a desk you sit at regularly. You could just install a thunderbolt hub if you needed more.

That's the difference between ethernet and thunderbolt. I AM likely to need ethernet anywhere; so simply leaving a dongle plugged into the ehternet cable at my desk isn't good enough. But I'm only likely to need thunderbolt at my desk (especially multiple thunderbolt.)

Re:"We want to make the best Mac in the world"

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

What is annoying is the tendency toward clearly voluntary and self-inflicted regressions.

The rocket surgeon who decided to remove the perfectly functional GUI for configuring 802.11x/WPA Enterprise connections; and instead made that possible only by applying a device configuration, for instance, has no excuse for such failure.

Re:"We want to make the best Mac in the world"

[azav]

See mom! I'm not the only one!

The problem here is that Apple's prior use of skeuomorphism WORKED WELL. The resemblance of items to the real world gives valuable context and gives an understanding to the user without them having to interact with the UI. They just can look at it and "get it".

Apple's tossed that right out of the window and to be blunt, the result sucks ass.

Re:"We want to make the best Mac in the world"

[azav]

I develop for Apple for a living, son.

The default blue is eye burning and is everywhere in the Mac OS and iOS.

Nothing's animated? Everything is. Click on a disclosure triangle in the Finder. The entire contents of the folder slide down or slide up. Download a file in Safari. A little cockroach sized badge darts across the screen. Open a panel in Xcode, it slides across the screen instead of opening instantly. Open a new Safari window. It pops open in your face, growing to full size. Send an email in the Mail app. It flies up off the screen. Click in a search bar. The little magnifying glass darts to the left. Click out of it. It darts back to the center. Every alert pops open. Pressing command control D with the mouse over some text results in a VH-1 Pop Up Video style wobbling bubble and then all the content animates in.

Even clicking on a radio button animates the filling in of the button. So much of the UI is now a visual distraction and you can't turn them all off.

I don't know how you don't see this.

Re:"We want to make the best Mac in the world"

[topologist]

I'm curious, which program was it that showed the "modal" dialog and stole your keystrokes? Something like a VPN connection password that had expired? That could be dangerous from the security perspective. Clearly the OS should have safeguards to prevent that, but one wonders if there's any legitimate use for this.

Re:"We want to make the best Mac in the world"

[Anonymous Coward]

You don't even need a modal dialog.

Try opening TextEdit. Now click a browser, and while it's launching, switch back to TextEdit and start typing.

Chances are good that when your browser finishes launching, it will leap to the foreground, interrupting your typing.

Re:"We want to make the best Mac in the world"

[tsqr]

And if the rest of the Slashdotters are honest, they would agree that, with laptops at least, most people don't bother with plugging them into a terrestrial ethernet connection; but use WiFi instead.

Strange definition of "honest" you have there. I use a MacBook Pro at work, and the only times I use wireless are on those rare occasions when I need to use it at a meeting. Most (but not all) of my similarly-equipped colleagues do the same. I don't really mind the Ethernet dongle, though.

Re:"We want to make the best Mac in the world"

[angel'o'sphere]

Yeah and the other idiot who made it close to impossible to configure an SMTP server.
WTF ... How hard can it be to have for a mail account three sections:
General Info, like my Name
Pop/IMAP for "receiving" mail
SMTP for sending

No, the last part is missing, it only shows up when you create a new account. If you have to "change" it for an existing account you can only switch to a different configuration instead of editing your data right there.

Meanwhile you get the impression the people programming for Macs don't really use them. Or they only have one mail account, or they only have GMail or other web based mail accounts.

WTF: I have my own domain and my own mail service and when ever I have to change something I have for fuck sake to google how to adjust my Mail program on my Mac because: what 10 years ago was an obvious super easy to use OS (I converted dozens of people from windows to Macs) is now a nightmare of frustration

Ah, and: I have configured that flash movies should not play automatic. Works fine. Unless the Mac Book Air 13" running 10.9.x crashes.

What it does reliable when you open the Mac Book and more or less in +/- one second remove the power cord: crash. Always.

Now, you reboot, and my 45 youtube tabs with old stuff start running simultaneously (because the: "don't start flash movies automatically option" does not work during restoring of old windows)

Obviously everything (and I could write down 100 or so ... ofc it would be topped by the 1000 things about windows that I hate ...) that happens to me why using my Mac never ever happens to an Apple Developer. What are they doing with their Macs then? Nothing?

Re:"We want to make the best Mac in the world"

[UnknownSoldier]

> The problem here is that Apple's prior use of skeuomorphism WORKED WELL.

I agree 100%. I would also add it looked a beautiful and professional. That's why I'm still on 6.x

i.e. Notes on iOS 6 looks beautiful. Nice yellow paper with blue lines with a good readable font.
Notes on iOS7+ looks like crap.

iOS 7, 8, and 9 look like shit and designed by some elementary kid with horrible color schemes.

It like Apple forgot everything we learnt about beautiful and functional UI in the past 20 years and through it all out.

Re:"We want to make the best Mac in the world"

[BasilBrush]

If you think these helpful animations are distracting, I certainly don't want to use any software you've written. You've missed the point entirely. The animations are there to keep context or provide hints.

Thankfully OSX UI is designed around your ideas.

Re:"We want to make the best Mac in the world"

[graphius]

I agree there are a lot of issues with macs.

The animation, I can live with. I have some desktop effects on my KDE box.

I am not sure where the blue you talk about lives. I guess a lot of icons have some blue in them, but whatever.

I don't like the flat design either, but every OS seems to have jumped on that bandwagon. Buttons should look like buttons, or at least indicate somehow that they are clickable, rather than the hunt and peck guessing game we have now.

I will say though, that OSX is the best OS that runs pro level photography and design programs...

Re:"We want to make the best Mac in the world"

[graphius]

THIS ^^^
It is now more important to look trendy than to work well.

Re:"We want to make the best Mac in the world"

[graphius]

Exactly. If I am at home where I would normally plug in an ethernet cable, I plug in a thunderbolt hub which gives me an ethernet port, several extra USB ports, an HDMI port and more thunderbolt ports. I plug in one wire and everything is connected.
When I am not at home, normally I would use WiFi, so do not need an ethernet port. On the rare occasion I do I can use an adaptor....

Re:"We want to make the best Mac in the world"

[graphius]

If you never bring you Macbook pro anywhere, why not just get an iMac? better screen, better processor, more ports....

Re:"We want to make the best Mac in the world"

[Hognoxious]

A terrestrial ethernet cable? My arse.

Get a lunar one. They're nurtured in a vacuum, which means they're organically oxygen free, enhancing the chromaticity of transients and giving a more voluptuous keyboard feel when fagcasting on the basefooks.

Re:"We want to make the best Mac in the world"

[topologist]

That's interesting, but seems something of an edge case. I guess the time to open a browser could be considerable if it's restoring many tabs or windows, and one might want to be super-efficient and switch to TextEdit. I'm not sure if you're a different AC or the grandparent poster, but it would be interesting to understand the original modal dialog focus stealing thing a bit more, I've been annoyed by it but can't recall what does that offhand. Maybe I'll even be motivated enough to file a report with Apple (bugreport.apple.com).

Re:"We want to make the best Mac in the world"

[macs4all]

that have 2 Thunderbolt 2 Ports (a total of FOUR TIMES the bandwidth of my single TB 1 Port), 2 USB 3.0 ports and a dedicated HDMI port?

OP here. The 2014 model is exactly the one I have and I'd happily trade one of those Thunderbolt 2 ports with all of its completely useless extra bandwidth and equally useless HDMI port (do people code on their TVs or something?) for a physical Ethernet port, something which I use every single day.

An HDMI port can easily become a DVI port; so there's that. And pretty much every Windows laptop in the past 4 years or more has had an HDMI port.

Ya know, people screamed to high heaven when the iMac threw away the floppy drive and the RS-422/232 ports. "How can it be a real computer without a floppy drive?" People wailed.

2 years later, and virtually no one had a floppy drive or a Serial Port, and you could hardly buy a serial ANYthing.

Years ago, Apple was the first company to not only put an Ethernet port on a laptop, but a SCSI port, too. But they have always been the bellwhether of change in the computing world.

So, mark my words: In less than 5 years, you will be hanging a dongle offa your USB-C port to get Terrestrial Ethernet, and using who-the-fuck-knows what kind of video adapter. Meanwhile, that TB2 port will still have adapters available for both, with bandwidth to spare.

Re:"We want to make the best Mac in the world"

[macs4all]

And if the rest of the Slashdotters are honest, they would agree that, with laptops at least, most people don't bother with plugging them into a terrestrial ethernet connection; but use WiFi instead.

Strange definition of "honest" you have there. I use a MacBook Pro at work, and the only times I use wireless are on those rare occasions when I need to use it at a meeting. Most (but not all) of my similarly-equipped colleagues do the same. I don't really mind the Ethernet dongle, though.

Must have shitty WiFi at work, or you're all idiots.

Re: "We want to make the best Mac in the world"

[tsqr]

Uh huh. Or maybe you're just a myopic jerk who doesn't realize that your use case is not everyone's use case.

Re:"We want to make the best Mac in the world"

[Darinbob]

Bugs that have never been fixed for years either. Such as the one where all your windows resize to just a titlebar when you use an external monitor. But their core market are laptop only users who never use monitors.

Re:"We want to make the best Mac in the world"

[bingoUV]

Enjoy the inconvenience of future, today. Brought to you by Apple.

Re:"We want to make the best Mac in the world"

[antdude]

Didn't this happen when Steve Jobs was having health issues? I miss Mac OS X's old designs like the aqua buttons.

Re:"We want to make the best Mac in the world"

[antdude]

Apple should provide options to disable and enable these features.

Re:"We want to make the best Mac in the world"

[graphius]

agreed

Re:"We want to make the best Mac in the world"

[antdude]

FYI, http://www.bresink.com/osx/Tin... has some options but not all. Maybe it will help you?

Re:"We want to make the best Mac in the world"

[Plumpaquatsch]

> You must be doing some weird things with your Mac.

Such as using it out of the box?

> Why don't you just disable the gestures you don't like?

I did. I know how to do that, and you know how to do that, but the average user never ever go "WTF? Why did all my windows fly off the screen??"

Errm, most of the gestures are disabled by default. Did you actually ever use a Mac?

Re:"We want to make the best Mac in the world"

[TheRaven64]

This particular point about email actually makes sense. They've decoupled the sending and receiving accounts. You can have multiple of each and you can specify multiple sending addresses associated with a receiving account (not well documented, but a comma-separated list in the email address box) and you can have a preferred SMTP server for each IMAP/POP server, but still fall back to others when that's unavailable. Adding a new SMTP server is easy: Preferences, accounts, Outgoing mail server (SMTP) drop-down, edit server list, and then you're in the interface for creating new ones.

What it does reliable when you open the Mac Book and more or less in +/- one second remove the power cord: crash. Always.

That sounds like you may have a hardware defect. I've done that a few times by accident recently and not had a problem.

Re:"We want to make the best Mac in the world"

[angel'o'sphere]

Ofc adding new smtp servers is easy.
However editing the one which is associated to an existing account is complicated. Because you have to to to the spot where you add them, the whole UI is completely unintuitive.
Na, I guess it is a software defect. But, hm ... I ask in the shop, it is roughly a year old, perhaps they look over it and check it.

Re:"We want to make the best Mac in the world"

[david_thornley]

Or maybe he has a nice convenient Ethernet connection where he normally uses his MBP. If I was using my laptop in my computer room, I'd plug it in for the better connection.

I suspect it already does

[Viol8]

I'm pretty sure the Ipad & Iphone kernels are based if not the same as the OS/X one, and most of the surrounding programs & libraries taken from OS/X recompiled for ARM. All they need is a different GUI and specific drivers for the phone baseband hardware.

Re:I suspect it already does

[UnknowingFool]

I see the main thing Apple would have to solve if they were to ever create a hybrid is a better UI. Touch works well for tablets but not so much for computers. Keyboard and mouse work well for computers but not tablets. For now MS didn't really solve the problem other than offering both on the Surface; however, the forcing of users to use more touch in Windows 8 has led to a backlash.

Re:I suspect it already does

[monkeyxpress]

There has also been a lot of convergence in OSX/iOS development tools over the last few xcode releases. AppKit has UiKit style autolayout now and many of the back end services and apis are being normalised.

The Apple Pencil makes a mouse oriented UI usable on an iPad like device, and I wouldn't be surprised if by the iPad Pro 2 it is reasonably trivial to make an OSX app that builds for iPad Pro with minimal UI tweaks.

Re:I suspect it already does

[macs4all]

I'm pretty sure the Ipad & Iphone kernels are based if not the same as the OS/X one, and most of the surrounding programs & libraries taken from OS/X recompiled for ARM. All they need is a different GUI and specific drivers for the phone baseband hardware.

He didn't say that Apple COULDN'T do it. Of course they can, and for the reasons stated (and the fact that OS X is fairly platform-agnostic at its core), it would even be reasonably easy for them.

And don't think they haven't had somebody already messing-around, doing it on the side, like with the Intel version of OS X.

But I happen to agree with Cook. Not only would it be the ruination of the Mac as we know it, and OS X as we know it; but it would do nothing but cannabalize sales of the fairly-profitable and very successful MacBook Pro, and absolutely devastate sales of the very popular MacBook Air, in favor of something that would end up being too heavy to be a tablet, and too weak to be a reasonable laptop.

But now that they have that Stylus (^H^H^H^H^H Pencil) and large-enough touchscreen, I can forsee a touchscreen Air and maybe even a MacBook Pro happening in the next year or so. OS X won't change to be like Windows 8, but since they already have multitouch gesture-support built into OS X, again, it wouldn't be any difficulty at ALL for them to support a touchscreen AND a Trackpad on a MacBook in OS X.

Re:I suspect it already does

[fluffernutter]

My impression is that Apple wants the mouse and all other pointing functions to go away. They have created all kinds of ridiculous swipes on the touchpad that completely breaks my typing flow, while making things impossible to do with hotkeys.

Re:I suspect it already does

[macs4all]

The Apple Pencil makes a mouse oriented UI usable on an iPad like device, and I wouldn't be surprised if by the iPad Pro 2 it is reasonably trivial to make an OSX app that builds for iPad Pro with minimal UI tweaks.

Now I would say that that is a much more "Apple" way (Universal Apps) of doing this than creating a mashup device/OS.

Re:I suspect it already does

[ColdWetDog]

The real killer for productivity in iOS is the lack of user space accessible file system. Either they have to open the up to iOS users - and take the security hit, or they have to hide it from OS X users (over our dead 17 inch laptops).

Re:I suspect it already does

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

All they need is a different GUI and specific drivers for the phone baseband hardware.

Yeah... all that's left is the really hard part.

Re:I suspect it already does

[Viol8]

You're joking right? Phone hardware is pretty standardised and does most of the heavy lifting internally. Writing a GUI pales into insignificance compared to writing the core OS kernel and supporting frameworks and plumbing.

Re:I suspect it already does

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

Those two statements are in conflict with each other. ;)

Writing a GUI pales into insignificance compared to writing the core OS kernel and supporting frameworks and plumbing.

If that were even remotely true Linux would have a much better marketshare right now. I'm not sure why you're writing off the GUI, it's like you're under-estimating what it takes to put together a system that supports Apps, varying hardware, and simultaneously attempting to be secure and totally open about it.

The kernel is not where most of the development time for iOS or Android was spent.

Re:I suspect it already does

[swb]

Which for me is a big disappointment. I'd already have an iPad Pro if it could pair a Bluetooth mouse to go with the bluetooth keyboard.

The iPad is fine for tablety kind of things, like couch surfing, etc.

I can already get a fair amount of more serious work done with a Bluetooth keyboard, but the lack of a mouse makes it just too clunky to get anything done. There's just too many weird, hard-to-remember touch swipes and combinations to be efficient.

When my iPad 3 finally stops being useful at all (not there yet, but I can see it..), I'll probably just end up with some kind of ultrabook, which will be less satisfying as a tablet but will provide the mouse option.

Re:I suspect it already does

[fluffernutter]

The problem is, there is a great mass of people that don't use a computer for serious things so they will be supportive of devices that aren't for serious things. This will make the cost of serious devices go up.

Re:I suspect it already does

[GNious]

Which for me is a big disappointment. I'd already have an iPad Pro if it could pair a Bluetooth mouse to go with the bluetooth keyboard.

No BT mouse support? Damn, was thinking to suggest an iPad Pro for wife, but I'm pretty sure this would be a dealbreaker.

Re:I suspect it already does

[fustakrakich]

The real killer for productivity in iOS is the lack of user space accessible file system.

That's how they do DRM. We can thank copyright law for that.

Re:I suspect it already does

[swb]

Aren't they already? Even before the iPad became a thing, "non-serious" laptops like netbooks were a thing and the industry has already demonstrated a willingness and ability to produce the least serious and cheap conventional laptop it could, most of which are cheaper than iPads now.

"Serious" computers have more or less always been expensive, at least for whatever definition of "serious" might include some use that might remotely be considered "business" use that isn't mass produced for consumer use.

I'm always reminded of this whenever I decide to build a new desktop and think I'll finally avoid the mistake of trying to use a conventional desktop board, then I realize that the Supermicro case that would be perfect is like $600 and the motherboard that will support more RAM than whatever the desktop chipsets will support is also some multiple of the best suited desktop board I can find.

Re:I suspect it already does

[swb]

Not as far as I can tell. I thought when they were more or less pitching it as a *cough* Pro *cough* tablet they might have finally given in on BT mouse support, at least for the Pro (which it seems would be a very Apple thing to do).

I'm guessing they're firmly wed to the notion of a touch only user interface. What always rankles me about this is that they could allow pairing of the device but not integrate it so that it can be used with system touch UI functionality and create a separate UI API for mice so that basically it would only work with apps that specifically code for mouse support.

This would protect the ideological purity of the normal touch UI -- ie, prevent devs from coding nominally touch app UIs that were dependent on mice -- but still allow devs to code in mouse support for their specific UI as an extension if they thought it added value (editors, graphics, RDP, whatever).

Re:I suspect it already does

[fluffernutter]

My definition of serious that I used here is more from the ergonomic and durability perspective. Mechanical keyboard and mouse. Focus on function as opposed to form. I want a bigger heavier machine that is more durable and has a bounty of ports.

Re:I suspect it already does

[exomondo]

This is the usual Apple way of doing things, given that they have made a point of this you can expect them to backflip on it in the near future. Just like with large screen iPhones, 7" tablet and stylus. I'm not saying it's a bad thing, just that when Apple makes a lot of noise about not doing something that a competitor is doing they usually turn around shortly after and do exactly that thing.

Re:I suspect it already does

[Applehu Akbar]

"I'd already have an iPad Pro if it could pair a Bluetooth mouse to go with the bluetooth keyboard."

The iPad Pro has a Pencil. Better than a mouse for the artsy things you need a pointing device for. Try using a mouse to draw with, on any computer with any OS in any application, and you'll see what I mean.

Re:I suspect it already does

[im_thatoneguy]

Windows 8 and 10 have a user accessible file system without compromising security. It's kind of a PITA in some situations because the user has to elevate each folder's access privileges per application and some some folders like like Win32 Program Files and the System directory are off-limits (except through UNC hacks).

Forces developers to rethink a lot of stuff too since file access isn't guaranteed.

Re:I suspect it already does

[swb]

If graphics tablets were viable replacements for mice, everybody would have one.

The only people who do have them are people who need a pen(cil) like interface for that one specific use case -- drawing, painting, etc.

It's STILL less useful than a mouse for the 99% of other things you would use a mouse for, and in some ways WORSE than plain touch because now not only do you have to touch the screen, you have to pick up the pencil and touch the screen with it. At least hand-to-mouse doesn't involve grabbing and lifting the mouse or touching the screen.

Re:I suspect it already does

[graphius]

One of the things I really like as a relatively new OSX user is the trackpad. I never use a mouse with my Macbook anymore. I do find my linux boxes still need a mouse, but I find the simple gestures and well designed trackpad mean I never need to bring a mouse in my bag...

Re:I suspect it already does

[Applehu Akbar]

If you had to use the stylus for every onscreen operation, perhaps.

But for most iPad gestures, fingers still work perfectly well. Going to Pencil is desirable when you need fine control, and the control it gives you is better than any mouse. Try to specify line thickness with a mouse.

Re:I suspect it already does

[swb]

But that's kind of my whole argument, *most* on-screen activities aren't more efficient with touch and are only made more awkward with clumsy and complex multitouch "gestures".

I'm sure the pencil is great, most people who do actual art with a computer have a graphics tablet for this reason. But art is only a small percentage of the things people do with computers.

Re:I suspect it already does

[Plumpaquatsch]

Which for me is a big disappointment. I'd already have an iPad Pro if it could pair a Bluetooth mouse to go with the bluetooth keyboard.

For what, pray tell?

Re:I suspect it already does

[Plumpaquatsch]

If graphics tablets were viable replacements for mice, everybody would have one.

If mice were viable replacements for a finger, everybody would have ten.

Re:I suspect it already does

[Plumpaquatsch]

The real killer for productivity in iOS is the lack of user space accessible file system.

That's how they do DRM. We can thank copyright law for that.

No, that's how they keep your flashlight app from stealing all your data like they do on Android.

Re:I suspect it already does

[Plumpaquatsch]

7" tablet

This alone shows how stupid your argument is. The iPad Mini is 8", and as soon as Apple released it, everybody suddenly released 8" tablets in addition to the perfectly sized 7" tablets.

Re:I suspect it already does

[fustakrakich]

Permissions are another matter. In theory it should be trivial to block the flashlight app's access without blocking your own. And with the iPad/Phone, you don't know if the flashlight app isn't stealing your data. Just because you don't have access, it doesn't mean the app doesn't.

Re:I suspect it already does

[exomondo]

This alone shows how stupid your argument is.

Nope.

The iPad Mini is 8"

Actually it's 7.9". So what they release will just be the same (stylus, larger iphones) or ever so slightly different (7.9" vs 7") from what they say they won't do.

Re:I suspect it already does

[Plumpaquatsch]

Permissions are another matter. In theory it should be trivial to block the flashlight app's access without blocking your own. And with the iPad/Phone, you don't know if the flashlight app isn't stealing your data. Just because you don't have access, it doesn't mean the app doesn't.

Yeah right. Anybody here with any clues about CS left?

Re:I suspect it already does

[Plumpaquatsch]

This alone shows how stupid your argument is.

Nope.

You are right. It is not your argument that is stupid.

Re:I suspect it already does

[fustakrakich]

Oh? Do you have a point of disagreement you would like to express?

Re:I suspect it already does

[exomondo]

I know I'm right, the argument is bang on correct. If you don't like it and resort to childish namecalling that's your problem.

Re:I suspect it already does

[Plumpaquatsch]

Wow, thanks for proving my point.

Re:I suspect it already does

[Plumpaquatsch]

Oh? Do you have a point of disagreement you would like to express?

You've already shown you wouldn't understand, so what's the point?

Re:I suspect it already does

[fustakrakich]

Textbook answer for those who are full of it... Perfect.. Thanks!

Re:I suspect it already does

[Plumpaquatsch]

Textbook answer for those who are full of it... Perfect.. Thanks!

Yes, the perfect answer for you.

Re:I suspect it already does

[fustakrakich]

Well, like I said, you're just some fathead talking out your ass that obviously knows nothing and is only trolling.

Re:I suspect it already does

[Plumpaquatsch]

Says the guy who believes that unrestricted access to all files is more secure then restricted access.

Re:I suspect it already does

[fustakrakich]

Who said anything about more secure? The user needs access, the apps don't. You're still talking out your ass... Why are you here?

Re:I suspect it already does

[Plumpaquatsch]

Who said anything about more secure? The user needs access, the apps don't. You're still talking out your ass... Why are you here?

And the user can access all the files he wants, Just not by using apps.

Odd choice

[tomknight]

As a (surprisedly) happy Surface user, it seems strange that Apple aren't trying to regain initiative here. The Surface is really a good beast, it works well as a tablet and a desktop replacement (for standard light Office apps, some games and some more demading programs). It gives me a good touch keyboard for sshing into my systems, and has a USB interface for storage, keyboard, mouse. These are all things that the iPad failed to do.

Re:Odd choice

[cfalcon]

I honestly think that they can't yet. Microsoft just needs the tech to be there, and they can deliver. Apple has a different set of standards that often result in them being delayed to market with many aspects of computing- the pieces where they get there first are often based on design or UI revolutions that they start. Combine that with the fact that Apple's insistence on running their own OSes everywhere is both a blessing and a curse...

The "surface" model was likely chosen by Microsoft as an actually open area in tech, one where their competitors couldn't show up nearly instantly, including Apple.

Re:Odd choice

[MMC Monster]

[...](for standard light Office apps, some games and some more demading programs)

I think you proved their point for them. If it can't do everything a desktop can do, people are going to need the desktop.

On the other hand, if it is a really good tablet and can hand off apps to the desktop Mac (it's baked into the current iOS/OS X versions), that's considered a good deal in the Apple books. Maximal functionality with minimal compromise.

Re:Odd choice

[Anonymous Coward]

Given the track record at Apple, it means they are working feverishly on an iBook or MacPadPro device similar to the Surface Book. It is approximately 3 years from introduction based on previous product denials and subsequent releases. I cite the iPad Mini and iPad Pro as examples of this trend.

Apple literally does this with most of it's new products which are simply imitations and following the leaders in a segment. They decry the necessity and utility until they can bring their own product to market. "You'd have to sand down your fingers" and such stupidity.

Re:Odd choice

[Kjella]

Apple tends to assume the developer is lazy or at least market driven, meaning they won't support the odd alternative very well. See for example Apple's approach to high DPI vs Windows. So they think that most your desktop-ish apps will treat touch like shit and most your touch-oriented apps will treat keyboard+mouse as shit. It seems Apple is focusing on providing hand-off from one system to the other. I'm sure that at some point they'll offer it on one physical device so you can flip it from tablet to laptop mode, but that a "hybrid" mode is out of the question. It might just be what the doctor ordered to get both interfaces supported well or it could totally backfire, not sure which.

Re:Odd choice

[thegarbz]

The "surface" model was likely chosen by Microsoft as an actually open area in tech, one where their competitors couldn't show up nearly instantly, including Apple.

There were many "Surface" devices on the market. They are just a natural progression of tablet model from 2003ish where laptops came with displays that could fold back on themselves, and I've used many such devices over the past 12 years. There is only a few key things that Microsoft did to try and win with the surface:
- Use today's tech. A tablet needed to be light and needed a capacitive touchscreen.
- Go all out. When the Surface was released it was competing against small light laptops and cheap crap "transformers". The Surface was the first transformer with real balls.
- Palm detection (see capacitive touchscreen / today's tech).
- Attempt to make the OS tablet friendly.

I remember Windows 7 when it first came out using a Panasonic "tablet" laptop thing. The handwriting recognition was awful, windows were impossible to resize as you needed to hit the border exactly, and the device was genuinely unusable for many tasks.

They didn't enter a new market, but they are the first to enter it with an all-or-nothing strategy given that the Surface is their only device.

Re:Odd choice

[movdqa]

I like the Surface Pro from a hardware perspective but I don't like the direction that Microsoft has taken on Privacy, Updates and being fairly pushy on Windows 10. I have an iPad Mini and a MacBook Pro; the former for consumption and the latter for work. It's a great work machine and I especially appreciate the native Unix aspects. If Mac OSX weren't around, I would consider going with just Linux and Windows 7 on an old laptop or desktop. I don't really see the point in touch on a PC but I mainly use an environment with multiple large monitors. I use an Apple Mouse which has touch enabled on the surface and I also use the Apple Trackpad in the office. I also really like the 1980s-style IBM-PC keyboards. They weigh a ton but they are fantastic at positive feedback.

Re:Odd choice

[sexconker]

Don't forget the larger iPhones.
Apple's "we will never" means "we're working on it but it's not ready".

Re:Odd choice

[c]

As a (surprisedly) happy Surface user, it seems strange that Apple aren't trying to regain initiative here.

It wouldn't surprise me if Apple is at the point where they truly believe that any initiative they lose can be easily regained should they decide to enter a particular market with an iDevice.

Recent history might even lend support for that kind of belief.

Re:Odd choice

[Aaden42]

As an unhappy Surface user, I applaud Apple's ability to recognize that a tablet and a "computer" (be it laptop or desktop) are fundamentally different usage scenarios that the same hardware and/or OS are unlikely to satisfy without compromising and making both experiences less optimal.

For the record, you can in fact hook a USB keyboard up to iPad (and even iPhone). Bluetooth also works if you prefer wireless. The devices don't have standard USB ports, but an $8 adapter (http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00HPQUBGK) works nicely if you prefer wires. On occasions that I plan to do major writing while traveling, I'll bring a BT keyboard along. I always have the adapter with me in case something sneaks up. I can just "borrow" a standard USB keyboard from somewhere and type up War & Peace on the go...

iOS can also do some (very) limited things in terms of USB storage with one of those adapters, but it's pretty much limited to dumping photos to/from a memory card. General purpose USB storage capabilities might be nice sometimes, but they've never been the thing that made me pick up my Surface instead of my iPad.

About the only win on the Surface is the proper stylus which makes handwritten note taking much better. Haven't had a chance to try out Apple's new stylus thing on the iPad Pro yet. Very much hoping they bring it to the next iPad-normal revision as the extra size of the Pro is almost as much of a DO NOT WANT for me as the oversized iPhone 6 line.

Re:Odd choice

[chmod a x mojo]

If it can't do everything a desktop can do, people are going to need the desktop.

Neither can my Macbook Pro ( or Windows / Linux laptops ) since laptop GFX cards suck compared to Desktop GFX cards. Should I throw out all of my laptops since obviously a desktop is better?

Guess what I usually use my laptops for.... Office apps, some games, and some more demanding programs like Lightroom / PS.
  A surface Pro would work just as well as any of the laptops I use on the go, better in some cases because of the digitizer and pen.

Re:Odd choice

[MikeDataLink]

I use a Surface Pro 3 as my workstation. It's fantastic. I take it to meetings, dock it when I am in my office, etc. But I have to tell you it. It sucks as a travel device. It sucks because the battery only lasts about 3 hours. I am constantly hunting for a place to plug in. That's why I still travel with my iPad. 10 hours of battery is a wonderful thing when traveling.

Re:Odd choice

[Anonymous Coward]

I know someone inside the organization who's been hinting for the last year or so that it's being worked on. Also, "iOS is the future" apparently, so the careful wording of "iPad running OSX" is interesting from a tinfoil-hat perspective.

Re:Odd choice

[graphius]

There is a spectrum of usability, from simple portable consumption through to desktop computing power. Where you decide to compromise depends on your wants and needs. For some, the portability of a tablet outweighs the lack of power. For me, I do not normally need the crazy power of a desktop, but I do need more than what a surface does, let alone a tablet...

Re: Odd choice

[pi_rules]

I doubt they'll call it an iBook.

Re:Odd choice

[chmod a x mojo]

Umm, you are aware that we are talking about the "Surface Pro", not the discontinued "Surface" that came with the crippled ARM version of Windows right? Pretty sure the worst processor you can get on the cheapest pro4 is a m3 / i3, or for ~100$ more an i5, with options to get an i7. RAM and HDD specs are pretty similar to my Macbook Pro as well, with lowest being 4GB RAM / 128GB ssd.

It's basically a desktop in tablet form with an optional keyboard case ( no idea how good / bad these are, but can't be worse than some of the bluetooth crap that gets peddled for Android / iOS tablets).

I will also admit I don't know what real usage battery life is like on these either, but if it is in the 6-8 hour range it could be a pretty damn nice machine. If I was in the market for something new I would definitely check into it some more since at first glance the specs are pretty decent, but the machines I have now serve me well enough.

Re:Odd choice

[exomondo]

Don't forget the larger iPhones.

Or the stylus.

Re:Odd choice

[bingoUV]

The mobile i5 is worse than 2 generation old desktop i5. Mobile i7 is just 2 cores with hyper threading, again worse than 2 generation old i7 desktop.

It is not a desktop in tablet form, it is a laptop in tablet form. With all the crippled hardware laptops typically come with.

Re:Odd choice

[graphius]

comparison by a windows fan

Re:Odd choice

[Wdomburg]

The keyboard and trackpad on the new Type Cover are actually quite nice. I certainly prefer the buckling spring keyboard on my desk for extended typing, but it easily matches or exceeds the majority of mobile keyboards I've used.

A bluetooth keyboard and mouse is one solution, but not necessarily an idea one. Most options right now (including the Apple keyboard and mouse) haven't been updated to use the new "Bluetooth Smart" low energy mode, so you're going to lower the effective battery life of your tablet or phone by using it. The devices themselves need power as well, which means keeping those devices charged or dealing with removable batteries.

And of course you have additional parts to carry around, unless you're using a keyboard case. For everything but the iPad Pro, that's a third party accessory (which isn't necessarily a problem). And given the lack of native iOS support for pointing devices, that will still be a separate device with third party support.

I actually think the relatively constrained storage is the biggest mistake in the iPad Pro. Cloud storage is fine for some applications, but local storage is still necessary for offline access (like keeping the kiddies occupied with movies on a road trip), application storage (they just upped the limit for an app to 4GB in the Apple Store) and production. That last point is of particular import as the iPad moves away from being a consumption first device. In the era of 4K video, 20+ megapixel cameras, and multichannel high resolution audio, 128GB doesn't go very far (and 32GB is a bad joke.)

I'm frankly surprised they didn't go at least 64GB on the base model and 256GB (if not more) on the top end. I'm less surprised they didn't include an SD card, though the inclusion would have been as useful for loading content as expanding storage (think digital photographers, who can easily fill a high capacity SD card in a single shoot).

But then for editing tasks the storage may not matter. Even if the A9X is surprisingly fast, the relatively meager 4GB will become an issue. (Amazing that's considered meager these days, but that is absolute entry level for notebook from Apple. Microsoft does offer a Surface with only 2GB, but that's on entry level Surface 3, which is $499 (or $599 with LTE).

Assuming that ISVs actually supports Apple's bid to expand the scope of iOS as a platform, I fully expect future iterations bump both the base and top end specs, but I have to wonder if Apple made a mistake not aiming higher in the first place. If people buying it are just buying it as a "big iPad", they will fail to fundamentally change the app ecosystem. On the other hand, the number of people who actually WANT just a big iPad may render that moot (and it will keep producers buying the more expensive Mac OS X based products).

Re:Odd choice

[Plumpaquatsch]

Given the track record at Apple, it means they are working feverishly on an iBook or MacPadPro device similar to the Surface Book.

Sure. But first they will have to ship their netbook. Everybody said they must and will do it.

Re:Odd choice

[Plumpaquatsch]

Apple tends to assume the developer is lazy or at least market driven, meaning they won't support the odd alternative very well. See for example Apple's approach to high DPI vs Windows.

Exactly. Apple, unlike you, lives in the real world. Thanks for giving the perfect example.

Tim Cook doesn't know why anyone would buy a PC

[FictionPimp]

Being that OSX is a PC operating system I'm guessing they won't combine OSX and iOS because he believes laptops and desktops are dying technology that no longer needs his attention.

Re:Tim Cook doesn't know why anyone would buy a PC

[UnknowingFool]

PCs were the only solution to certain problems for a long time: How do you interact with a website? How do you answer email? etc. As tablets are filling that need for more and more of the average consumer, PC sales are dying. The average Joe never "needed" a PC really. The PC was just the only choice he/she really had before smartphones and tablets. For some consumers, yes, they'll need documents, spreadsheets, and gaming so there will always be some PC sales.

Re:Tim Cook doesn't know why anyone would buy a PC

[Junta]

Of course this is very very bad development for those of us who need PCs. To the extent it is a high volume industry, low margins and therefore low cost become accessible. The more volume decreases, the higher risk of higher margins demanded by all in the chain.

Re:Tim Cook doesn't know why anyone would buy a PC

[Richard_at_work]

With the current push by various tech companies to get girls and women into tech and coding, Apple have decided that people really want a device that you cannot do any serious coding on. So yeah, that works...

Re:Tim Cook doesn't know why anyone would buy a PC

[macs4all]

As tablets are filling that need for more and more of the average consumer, PC sales are dying.

Maybe for the rest of the industry; but not for Apple.

Re:Tim Cook doesn't know why anyone would buy a PC

[gstoddart]

Or, because he believes there will always be separate markets for Macs and portable devices, that they're not the same thing, and creating one combined device would probably result in a device which sucked as a PC and as a mobile device. I'm inclined to agree.

I don't want my tablet or my phone to be running the same OS I'd run on my desktop or my laptop. They're different things, used differently, and don't even run the same programs.

I keep looking at Microsoft trying to make all of the devices converge as full-spec x86 devices as lazy and self-serving because they don't have the ability to come up with a mobile OS which isn't just the same under the covers. It screams "we have no idea how to make a new mobile operating system, so instead we'll stick with the same architecture we've had for 20 years and do nothing".

You don't need to think laptops and desktops are a dying technology. You just don't have to think that converging them to a single device actually results in a good product.

Microsoft just wants to put out the exact same thing they already have and call it mobile. Not everyone agrees. In fact, we think it's just lazy, and pushing out a product and calling it "innovating", and will result in a product which sucks at both tasks. Increasingly, Microsoft looks like the old tech company who can't see past the world being about Office and Outlook -- which means they seem to be missing the point about what people actually want.

I agree with Tim Cook, that's just a product which will suck as a desktop/laptop, and also suck as a mobile device.

For the things most people are using their tablets for, there is no benefit in having it be an x86 platform. And from what I've seen of the new Microsoft interface, it's so horribly skewed towards being a bad interface for tablets ... it's an utterly useless interface for desktops.

They should be separate operating systems because they're different devices, and used differently.

Once again, those "I'm a PC/I'm a Mac" ads showing Microsoft stuck in the past and missing the point seem like sheer brilliance. Because slavishly trying to keep to x86 on the thinking it's better than solving the actual problem is just inertia and not wanting things to change.

Re:Tim Cook doesn't know why anyone would buy a PC

[cfalcon]

The average Joe absolutely "needed" a PC. The simple tasks you described were vastly out of scope for what tech that fits in your pocket could do back then. What has happened is that we can now put those basic functions in a smaller package. Another huge one is security- older models of OS design would have implicitly trusted all kinds of crap. If you'd have had smartphones with 80s OS design, you'd have had some dumb phone worm shut down comms across the globe, repeatedly.

What you used to need state of the art running on a general purpose computer for has been addressed reasonably well by much weaker hardware from a vastly stronger baseline, and an app store that solves a large number of problems that used to require a more powerful rig.

Re:Tim Cook doesn't know why anyone would buy a PC

[Richard_at_work]

I take it you missed the entire Tim Cook comment of "Why would you buy a PC?" at the iPad Pro retail launch? Tim Cook doesn't think you should buy a PC when instead you could buy an iPad Pro.

So I'm not "nuts" at all, I'm simply taking on board what Tim Cook has actually said.

And I disagree with you on both the Surface Pro and Surface Book, as I own both and love both - but what that really means is any device I pick up at home, I can open a code editor on and hack away. Which I cannot do on the iPad Pro. I can also resort to full tablet mode with no issues. Which I cannot do on a Macbook, Macbook Air or Macbook Pro.

People keep saying that the Surface Pro and Books are compromises - I haven't yet run into a compromise on either.

Don't get me wrong - some people don't need the level of content creation that a full PC or Mac will give you, and in those circumstances a dedicated tablet will work fine for those people. But for me, the compromise is the hard delineation between a dedicated tablet OS and application set and a dedicated desktop OS and application set - I want both available to me on the one device.

Re:Tim Cook doesn't know why anyone would buy a PC

[MMC Monster]

When people don't have a MSWindows tablet or phone, they are getting by without MSWindows applications. In that setting, there's less demand for MSWindows desktop computers.

On the other hand, when their iOS device is known to hand off applications to OS X, maybe you'll get more people to Mac desktops.

It's not a large percentage of MS Windows users, but a small percentage of MSWindows users makes up a significant number of Mac users.

Re:Tim Cook doesn't know why anyone would buy a PC

[UnknowingFool]

Well the good news is that most PCs have more and more standard and that things can be re-used. When you buy a PC these days, you don't need to get a separate sound card, network card, storage card (eSATA etc). You don't even need to get a video card if you are not gaming. The high volume also meant that components are cheap (good and bad). I built a new PC for about $300 last year. Since I re-used the case, PS, and drives, the CPU, MB and RAM was the only thing I needed to buy.

Re:Tim Cook doesn't know why anyone would buy a PC

[thegarbz]

I haven't yet run into a compromise on either.

Compromises were in subtle usability refinements and not in the ability and that awesome convenience the device gives you. I.e. It's a heavy tablet to hold in one hand, and it's an awkward device to balance on your lap as there's no screen support (fixed by introduction of the Surface Book).

But damn there is no comparison to it on the market. I bought the SP3 after playing with my friend's SP2, my girlfriend just got a SP4. This is the first time since the introduction of tablets that a device has come out which has fundamentally changed how I use and interact with computers.

Re:Tim Cook doesn't know why anyone would buy a PC

[Blaskowicz]

The problem with the smartphones is that they force customer to create an online account to install software, and most of the applications are malware.
E.g. to install Skype you have to create a Google account to use the app store, and when installing Skype you're presented with a "choice" to accept Microsoft reading your phone directory (extremely intimate information) and uploading it to their servers, or not being able to use the software and stay in touch with loved ones abroad.

Permission management? for that you need to follow a complicated (hard to find) device-specific procedure that involves using a desktop computer, and if that's not possible throw away your smartphone and buy a newer one. But even in that latter case you have to know about which OS version allows permission management.

So, for the simple feature of "don't send your phone numbers to third parties" it is easier to maintain a Windows or Linux desktop computer.

Re:Tim Cook doesn't know why anyone would buy a PC

[cfalcon]

I don't think creating an account with the vendor of the phone is unusual. I'd love to see a fully open phone, of course, but the idea itself isn't inherently trashbin.

Those other problems sound like Android or Windows problems- Skype can't access other apps or generic app data in ios, nor is permission management difficult in ios, nor does it require a separate box.

Re:Tim Cook doesn't know why anyone would buy a PC

[bingoUV]

No they didn't need a PC, they needed an appliance. For your first point, they needed a large appliance because small ones didn't have the computational power. For your second point, they needed a secure appliance which updated its "firmware" periodically.

Re:Tim Cook doesn't know why anyone would buy a PC

[Plumpaquatsch]

Being that OSX is a PC operating system I'm guessing they won't combine OSX and iOS because he believes laptops and desktops are dying technology that no longer needs his attention.

No, he believes that while a hammer is a great tool, and a screw-driver is a great tool, a screw-hammer isn't such a good idea.

Re:Tim Cook doesn't know why anyone would buy a PC

[Plumpaquatsch]

I take it you missed the entire Tim Cook comment of "Why would you buy a PC?" at the iPad Pro retail launch? Tim Cook doesn't think you should buy a PC when instead you could buy an iPad Pro.

So I'm not "nuts" at all, I'm simply taking on board what Tim Cook has actually said.

And yet you conveniently ignore that he said this wasn't the case for everyone. Just for "many, many people".

Re:Tim Cook doesn't know why anyone would buy a PC

[Richard_at_work]

No, I don't "conveniently ignore" that at all, that is entirely the very basis for my point - we are trying to push out coding into a more general population at all ages, and yet here we have Tim Cook saying most people only need a device on which you cannot code. Those two things do not gel.

Re:Tim Cook doesn't know why anyone would buy a PC

[Plumpaquatsch]

No, I don't "conveniently ignore" that at all, that is entirely the very basis for my point - we are trying to push out coding into a more general population at all ages, and yet here we have Tim Cook saying most people only need a device on which you cannot code. Those two things do not gel.

The pipe-dream of "everybody becomes a programmer" aside - maybe Cook knows more than you do.

Re:Tim Cook doesn't know why anyone would buy a PC

[jman.org]

The question isn't why *anyone* would buy a PC, but why *Tim Cook* would.

PC's are Personal Computers, not just an M$-only device.

Mr. Cook used to travel with a PC - a MacBook Pro - but stopped as he doesn't need to. He doesn't develop content

Just try doing any actual work on a tablet. Oh, sure, you say, you can add a bluetooth keyboard if you really need to type.

Then it's not a tablet anymore. It's a PC with a bluetooth keyboard.

And Apple is wrong

[vux984]

The three phases of Apple:

1 - Tell us we don't want something at all.
2 - Watch everyone ignore you and build versions of it anyway.
3- Show up late to the party with an Apple version and say you invented it; rake in the money.

We're moving from stage 1 to stage 2 now.

So translation: Apple is working on it, but its not ready yet.

Re:And Apple is wrong

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm in no-way an Apple fan. I'm especially not a fan of the recent idiotic UI design decisions and the omnipresent feature thief. However, your comment inhabits so-fully that blind reverse-reality-distortion field that so many fanbois take against anything other than whatever happens to be their own personal preference, regardless of merit, that I had to correct you:

Apple has 4 stages:

1 - Look at things that people might want, and figure out how to build it better (i.e. iPhone, iPad, Computer UI, etc.)
2 - Spend the time necessary to build it and build it well. Sometimes this works, either technically or financially, or both (see examples above), and sometimes it doesn't (Newton, etc.) (Note that even if they invented a "pile of Apple shit" the Apple Fanbois would gobble it up. On the other hand, if they invented a cold-fusion device capable of powering the planet using nothing but leftover bread crusts, the anti-Apple-crowd (yes, I'm looking at you), would still insist it was "Apple shit.")
3 - When they get it right, watch the entire rest of the computing world panic and scramble to catch-up, while the anti-Apple-crowd continues to pretend that whatever Apple came up with is awful and nobody should want it. Eventually someone will actually make something worthy of competing with the Apple product (Windows 7), but this often takes years or even decades.
4 - (This is a new stage) - Systematically set about destroying everything good about the one thing you always did right - the human/computer interface. Remove usability, remove consistency, remove visibility, remove features, while simultaneously making nearly every aspect of your UI more difficult to use and less intuitive. Don't worry about it, because now the Apple fanboi is the norm, and they can do no wrong.

Re:And Apple is wrong

[ColdWetDog]

You both forgot the most important part of the Apple Cycle.

Re:And Apple is wrong

[Overzeetop]

You skipped the step between 1 and 2 which is to tell you that not only won't they be creating what they're about to work in, but you'd be a fool to even want it.

Re:And Apple is wrong

[nojayuk]

I'd be stunned to discover Apple ISN'T working on a touch-screen version of OS/X. Whether that ever makes it out of the labs into the shops is another matter, more due to marketing, user satisfaction and a number of other factors and if it doesn't we'll never know. Whether it bears any resemblance to iOS internally or in the UX is another matter. MS has pushed hard for an integrated UX for Windows, Apple might decide to diverge the UX experience instead to maintain usability.

Th Old Fogies assembled here will remember the G5 processor Apple machines and how it seemed there would never be an Intel version of an Apple computer, and then suddenly one day there is was, ready to go on sale. It was obvious in hindsight Apple had been working on porting their OS to Intel hardware for years, just in case and when the G5 got too far behind the curve they were ready (unlike the Altivec fanbois who swore they'd never buy an Intel Apple...). I'd even bet there's iOS builds for Intel Atom platforms in the back offices just in case the ARM designs powering their tablets and phablets run out of steam.

And 3.5" is the perfect phone size

[danbob999]

We will never make a larger phone.

Re:And 3.5" is the perfect phone size

[macs4all]

We will never make a larger phone.

That was a Jobs peccadillo. Everybody has them. People with strong personalities have them even more.

But Jobs is gone now, and Cook & Co. were smart enough to see that people were migrating away from the iPhone SPECIFICALLY due to the "phablet craze".

Now that they have the Pencil and the pseudo-pressure-sensitive display in a "laptop" size, I do think that you will eventually (within the next two MacBook refreshes) see Apple offer a touch-screen as at least an BTO Option on probably an MacBook Air; but I really doubt if Apple will do one of those "Surface Pro"/Yoga abominations.

Re:And 3.5" is the perfect phone size

[Plumpaquatsch]

We will never make a larger phone.

I bet you were among those who claimed that the 3.5" was too big back when Apple introduced the iPhone. Many people claimed that,

Re:And 3.5" is the perfect phone size

[danbob999]

You just lost a bet.

Re:And 3.5" is the perfect phone size

[Plumpaquatsch]

You just lost a bet.

Yeah, sorry. I forgot you are only 9.

Tim is wrong

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm a Mac AND Windows 10 users, and I absolutely love how Windows 10 fluently let's me use pads and pc's roughly the same way.

Tim is absolutely wrong here.

When it will hit him? Once he experiences Windows 10 phone plugged wirelessly into a monitor and keyboard and mouse (yeah, you can still use the phone). It's fucking amazing.

An iPhone turning into an OSX desktop at will would be ever more awsome, since I like access to Unixy tools.

This seems familiar

[Ayanami_R]

Cook sounds very Blackberrian with this. If he thinks they can fight the entire industry movement, good luck.

Re:This seems familiar

[monkeyxpress]

Maybe, but on the other hand he is also hedging his bets. If the iPad Pro proves to be popular, then it will be relatively easy for them to adapt their strategy. If anything I find their lineup quite confused now (certainly not the focus that Jobs had) with the MacBook, MacBook Pro and now iPad Pro kind of throwing a range of products out there at roughly the same price and asking the customers to decide what they value most.

I think this is to be expected though now their oracle is dead. I think the breaking of the 'perfect screen size' taboo that Jobs cast on the iPhone 5 was a bit of a watershed. It would have undoubtedly been driven by data and market testing, and I'm sure there were many reservations because of Jobs' hatred of phablets. Ultimately though, it proved spectacularly correct. It's great to say you're going to skate to where the puck is if you have a big ego who can back himself to keep making the right calls, but otherwise the standard operating practice for billion dollar companies is market research, market research, market research.

Re:This seems familiar

[macs4all]

Cook sounds very Blackberrian with this. If he thinks they can fight the entire industry movement, good luck.

Funny. Apple's PC sales are UP year-over-year, while the "entire (rest) of the industry" sales are down.

I think the "entire (rest) of the industry" needs to stop being such lemmings. It seems like Apple is the only company who has actually analyzed what the market wants. The rest are just trying to "out innovate" Apple. They couldn't come up with one single tablet that would unseat the iPad; so they said "I know, let's listen to what the Microsoft Rep that came in last quarter said about "The future of computing" " and build something based on MS' Reference Design."

What else explains something like half a dozen mfgs coming out with virtually the same device within the same 6 months?

Meanwhile, Apple chugs along, chuckling to itself, knowing that it had already experimented internally with exactly that type of device five years ago, and found out that none of their alpha-testers liked it.

Re:This seems familiar

[yodleboy]

"Funny. Apple's PC sales are UP year-over-year, while the "entire (rest) of the industry" sales are down. I think the "entire (rest) of the industry" needs to stop being such lemmings."

Or alternatively, people are largely satisfied with the performance of their current windows PC and feel no need to pay a premium for a new computer that will not do any better and will require them to adapt the the "Apple Way". My 4 year old Core i5 PC is still going strong. In that time, 2 new video cards and an upgrade to Windows 10 pro. Video encoding, Plex server, dev box, game machine (even Fallout 4 is running pretty well). I just have no compelling reason to replace it, probably for another couple of years. At that point, I will be able to get today's bleeding edge PC for the price of an entry level Mac.

IMHO the "lemmings" are the ones buying Mac.

Re:This seems familiar

[thegarbz]

Apple's PC sales are UP year-over-year

Errr no. Mac sales haven't noticeable increased in the last 5 years. Markshare has changed with the move from PCs as a consumption device to tablets reducing the number of PCs in relation to Macs but even those figures are in the order of a couple of percent.

Mac's aren't magic and PCs aren't hated. The entire industry is simply stagnant as the upgrade cycle is broken. MS and Apple are both releasing operating systems which run faster and are more resource efficient than previous ones and consoles have pegged a minimum requirement for being able to make games run so there's no upgrade driver for any devices.

Now Surface sales, they are trending up at a huge rate. But then they are still in a honeymoon period.

Re:This seems familiar

[Plumpaquatsch]

"Funny. Apple's PC sales are UP year-over-year, while the "entire (rest) of the industry" sales are down. I think the "entire (rest) of the industry" needs to stop being such lemmings." Or alternatively, people are largely satisfied with the performance of their current windows PC and feel no need to pay a premium for a new computer that will not do any better and will require them to adapt the the "Apple Way".

Yeah, that perfectly explains why Mac sales are up. In the Twilight Zone!

Re:This seems familiar

[Plumpaquatsch]

Apple's PC sales are UP year-over-year

Errr no. Mac sales haven't noticeable increased in the last 5 years.

Suuure. If you squint real hard, you certainly won't notice. FQ4 2015 (last quarter) Apple sold 5.7 million Macs, FQ4 2010 3.9 million. That's almost 50% increase.

Re:This seems familiar

[thegarbz]

Yep. If you take 2 datapoints rather than draw a trendline. Of note is that the rest of the industry saw similar jumps in both years.

Careful, I heard reality distortion fields can cause cancer.

Re:This seems familiar

[Plumpaquatsch]

Yep. If you take 2 datapoints rather than draw a trendline. Of note is that the rest of the industry saw similar jumps in both years.

Careful, I heard reality distortion fields can cause cancer.

Wow, you really are desperate. Did Tim Cook steal your girlfriend?

Re:This seems familiar

[thegarbz]

Nope, just your ability to express a rational thought.

Re:This seems familiar

[Plumpaquatsch]

Nope, just your ability to express a rational thought.

Then why do you fail at it instead of me?

Hard for a market leader...

[Junta]

When a business achieves overwhelming success in an area and is recognized as the market leader, it is very difficult for that company to adopt a strategy that could be seen as disruptive to the way they know the market has worked to date.

I personally could not imagine being confined to the way iphone/ipad/android work for all my stuff. For occasional travel I could make do, but if I was traveling in a professional or extended trip, I need a desktop/laptop type access. I prefer linux desktop, but Windows or OSX is serviceable.

Re:Hard for a market leader...

[Plumpaquatsch]

When a business achieves overwhelming success in an area and is recognized as the market leader, it is very difficult for that company to adopt a strategy that could be seen as disruptive to the way they know the market has worked to date.

And yet Apple is the company that has done that difficult thing several times. While others try to copy them and fail.

xCode?

[xtal]

Don't care so much for the OS integration.

It would be nice to be able to create programs on the iPad Pro, though. It's performance and specs make a compelling case.

In the meantime, if you want to program, you need to bring your macbook and iPad..

Also, when will they give the Mac Pro some love?

Developers? Developers? Developers...

Re:xCode?

[fluffernutter]

"It would be nice to be able to create programs on the iPad Pro". How many good durable mechanical switch keyboards work with a tablet? Programming on OS/X is frustrating enough for me, never mind being relegated to a touch screen.

Re:xCode?

[fluffernutter]

Sorry. OSX or OS X, not OS/X.

The first two don't look right to me.

Re:xCode?

[gstoddart]

How many good durable mechanical switch keyboards work with a tablet? Programming on OS/X is frustrating enough for me, never mind being relegated to a touch screen.

Honestly, they make Bluetooth keyboards, and have for years. Many companies make them, they should all work with pretty much anything.

Hell, I bet it you so chose you could buy a Microsoft Bluetooth keyboard and use it with an iPad.

That Apple doesn't ship it with a keyboard doesn't mean you're being denied the ability to use one.

Re:xCode?

[fluffernutter]

But are they low quality chicklet style keyboards? Those are not easy to type a lot with. Currently I use a das keyboard which comes in usb cable version only, last I checked.

Re:xCode?

[fluffernutter]

Not to mention, can't use a bluetooth keyboard on an airplane.

Jobs: Apple wont create an iPhone with big screen

[JoeyRox]

Amazing how consumers ultimately decide what companies will and will not create.

Money

[Luthair]

From Apple's perspective why sell one device when you can sell two.

Re:Money

[Luthair]

Who said I'm a believer in Microsoft?

And lets be honest, for the past 10-years Apple's 'innovation' consists of recycling the ipod touch (hmm, add cellular, remove cellular but increase screen size).

Re:Money

[avandesande]

yeah they had windows RT... and nobody wanted it

Re:Money

[cloud.pt]

my thoughts exactly. Apple is all about avoiding product cannibalization. Thus the super price tag and performance disparities on the Mac Pro vs iMacs, iPad/Mini vs iPad Pro, MacBook Air vs MacBook pro 13, MacBook Pro 13 vs MacBook Pro 15, and even MacBook Pro 15 vs MacBook Pro 15 with dedicated graphics. The only notable exception is the iPhones standard and plus, but hey, they still do the price disparity on the amazing price differences for storage capacity on those.

Re:Money

[The-Ixian]

I have to ask. Have you ever used a Windows Phone 8 device?

The OS runs circles around Android or iOS. I am continually impressed with the simple, elegant design and the performance. There have been several times where I have been able to perform a function or look up information faster than people using much more powerful iPhones or Android phones. This is mostly due to the efficiency of the OS design.

I have a $35 (brand new price) Lumia 520 from a year ago that I still used daily. The phone I had prior to this was an $80 android phone that was barely useable from day 1. The Android phone could *barely* run 1 app let alone 2 (i.e. good luck looking up a bus route while you are playing music...) and yet the Windows phone can do everything I need at 3x the speed of said Android phone.

Re:Money

[tlhIngan]

my thoughts exactly. Apple is all about avoiding product cannibalization. Thus the super price tag and performance disparities on the Mac Pro vs iMacs, iPad/Mini vs iPad Pro, MacBook Air vs MacBook pro 13, MacBook Pro 13 vs MacBook Pro 15, and even MacBook Pro 15 vs MacBook Pro 15 with dedicated graphics. The only notable exception is the iPhones standard and plus, but hey, they still do the price disparity on the amazing price differences for storage capacity on those.

Uh, no. Apple cannibalizes themselves a lot.

I mean, iPods are pretty much dead - killed by the iPhone and the like. Apple saw that coming and didn't hang onto the iPod. The only reason Apple even sells iPods is because there's still a few people who buy them, but the amount of time that goes between updates shows it's not Apple's priority to waste development time and money updating them regularly.

And the iPad pro pricing is enough to eat into MacBook sales. Even the high end iPhones cost as much as iPads.

And Apple knows it happens - it's why the iPad Air 2 is still around and there's no iPad Air 3 out.

There are no sacred horses for Apple - if the iPad pro is the way to go, they'll develop it and let the low-end Macbooks rot.

And the price tag for Macs is deliberate - they're not wanting to enter the spiral of race to the bottom. And you could argue the PC industry went that way and headed back - because everyone did an Apple and started releasing decent laptops again at higher (Apple-like) price points. Apple didn't follow the crowd to sub-$500 laptops, while the PC industry slavishly eeked every dollar out of it. So much so Intel had to spend millions of dollars convincing manufacturers to release higher end products to compete with the MacBook Air and that higher margins are worth it.

Re:Money

[cfalcon]

I hope they never stop selling ipods. I can take an ipod (well, some of them) to work. Everything else is checked at the door.

Unfortunately, Microsoft will rake in the market

[LichtSpektren]

I myself am interested in a full workstation OS (Linux-MATE would be my preference, but I could live with Mac OS X) on a tablet that can be augmented with a kickstand keyboard. Unfortunately, there's nothing for me except Surface lines, which I refuse to buy because I am boycotting Microsoft. I do all of my work in LibreOffice, so a tablet with iOS and Android are not options (and since the mobile versions of WPS Office and MS Office are crippled pieces of shit, I would imagine LO wouldn't be of much use, even if it was on iOS/Android). The UbuTab looks like it was a scam, but it's exactly what I was looking for.

Basically what I'm saying is that there's nothing for me; Microsoft is raking in all of the purchases that my population sector is interested in. I would buy a detachable MacBook or an iPad with OS X, so it's Apple's loss that Tim Cook doesn't want to market to me.

Sad Apple is play catch up with Microsoft

[avandesande]

At least Microsoft didn't double down with the RT strategy and quickly threw it in the dustbin.

Not One UI To Rule Them All

[danaris]

It's fairly well known that the cores of iOS and OS X (no slash, please! :-) ) are the same. That's not really the issue here—it's the problems with the differences between the optimal UI for a keyboard-and-mouse-based (or whatever pointing device you prefer) interface and the optimal UI for a touch-based interface.

But while I agree that it would be foolish to try to make a hybridized OS, I could see there being a device that works both ways, a few years from now, by being an iOS device when it's on its own, but when plugged into a special dock, it would become, essentially, the CPU for a monitor, keyboard, and mouse/trackpad/whatever that you have plugged into said dock...and the OS that displayed on that monitor would be OS X, not iOS.

Then you'd easily be able to access all the same documents, media, bookmarks, etc without even needing to sync them through iCloud, because they'd all literally be right on the device.

Now, I don't insist on this prediction by any means. I do think it would be a believable way to do some kind of convergence without the (IMNSHO) ugly compromises required of a convertible device like the Surface, though, and rather cool to boot.

Dan Aris

Re:Not One UI To Rule Them All

[Plumpaquatsch]

Well, they had a huge ad budget ten years ago, to catch hipsters like you, and they still ran their business into the ground.

No Xcode for iPad

[tepples]

There has also been a lot of convergence in OSX/iOS development tools over the last few xcode releases.

I'll believe the convergence once Xcode runs on iPad Pro. In theory, I could run Visual Studio, MonoDevelop, Code::Blocks, or any other IDE for Windows on a Surface Pro or Surface Book. Even Android has AIDE, an app for apping apps.

Apps!

Re:Or Will They?

[Penguinisto]

Or will they, in two years form now?

Why bother? If you want one bad enough, you can go buy one right now.

Good, now somebody tell the minions

[Anonymous Coward]

I wish Tim would tell the OSX team that converging with iOS isn't actually the plan. They've been showing distinct signs of believing otherwise.

Re:Unfortunately, Microsoft will rake in the marke

[LichtSpektren]

Pick any of the following that you like: Spying on their users, collaborating with the NSA, donating money to immoral causes, monopolistic tendencies, churning out shit products with terrible support.

And what for CS homework?

[tepples]

These products [iPad and MacBook] should remain separate.

Where does this leave a high school student who has received an iPad as a gift only to discover that it's not suitable for the programming homework that her computer science teacher has assigned?

Re:And what for CS homework?

[Anonymous Coward]

This is exactly the reason why I did not buy my daughter a microwave.

Re:And what for CS homework?

[FlyHelicopters]

Use their Windows PC, like everyone else?

Re:And what for CS homework?

[aristotle-dude]

These products [iPad and MacBook] should remain separate.

Where does this leave a high school student who has received an iPad as a gift only to discover that it's not suitable for the programming homework that her computer science teacher has assigned?

If they do not understand the difference between a laptop OS and desktop OS then I might question why they are in the Computer Science program in the first place. Your example is an non sequitur. Nobody in their right mind would try to use an iPad for programming homework.

Re:And what for CS homework?

[tepples]

then when she gets into her school's computer lab, pull down the code from the git server, and build it and run it and debug it there at school.

In other words, she would have to do the majority of iteratively improving the program, and thus the majority of her homework, at school. There isn't much time for this between when the school bus arrives and when is expected to be in class for homeroom and first period, or between when last period lets out and when the school bus leaves. The only workaround I can think of for this involves using an iPad as an SSH terminal, connecting to a server operated by the school. Not only does this method require the parent to buy Internet access at home or trust the child to walk to and from a public library (on those days when it's even open after school), but it also doesn't appear to cover programs with graphical output once the class reaches that chapter.

you're probably a pretty shit-tier developer.

Capped property taxes often won't pay for more than "shit-tier" tools.

Re:And what for CS homework?

[Joe_Dragon]

us it to pay down the student loan and get a pc

Re:And what for CS homework?

[tepples]

If they do not understand the difference between a laptop OS and desktop OS

Did you really mean "laptop"? Apple's traditional laptop, the MacBook, comes with a desktop OS, but its detachable, the iPad Pro, comes with a locked-down phone OS.

then I might question why they are in the Computer Science program in the first place

The same reason students study six tragic plays by William Shakespeare: required for diploma.

Re:And what for CS homework?

[Dog-Cow]

It's a shame your father didn't gift you with a lit stick of dynamite. If he had, no one would be subject to the extreme stupidity that his uncontrollable lust for a chimpanzee gave birth to.

Re:And what for CS homework?

[exomondo]

Where does this leave a high school student who has received an iPad as a gift only to discover that it's not suitable for the programming homework that her computer science teacher has assigned?

Unable to do it on the iPad, duh. But in a position to trade it for a suitable device.

Re:And what for CS homework?

[Plumpaquatsch]

These products [iPad and MacBook] should remain separate.

Where does this leave a high school student who has received an iPad as a gift only to discover that it's not suitable for the programming homework that her computer science teacher has assigned?

Work remote from the iPad on a Linux machine "in the cloud".

Re:And what for CS homework?

[Plumpaquatsch]

then when she gets into her school's computer lab, pull down the code from the git server, and build it and run it and debug it there at school.

In other words, she would have to do the majority of iteratively improving the program, and thus the majority of her homework, at school

No, on her iPad at home and on the server at school. At the same time. Have you even used an iPad or a computer in the last 15 years?

Re:And what for CS homework?

[tepples]

No, on her iPad at home and on the server at school. At the same time.

That's fine so long as the parent continues to subscribe to Internet access for the iPad. Besides, which SSH clients for iPad support graphics once she gets to that chapter? I don't know because I don't own an iPad.

"Consumer" is part of the problem

[tepples]

PCs were the only solution to certain problems for a long time: How do you interact with a website? How do you answer email?

And in the era of "every child should learn to code", how do you do your programming homework? Raspberry Pi?

For some consumers, yes, they'll need documents, spreadsheets, and gaming

I think the idea is that at some point everyone will become among "some consumers". But perhaps your use of "consumer", meaning someone who only views works created by others and does not create works, is misleading.

Re:"Consumer" is part of the problem

[UnknowingFool]

And in the era of "every child should learn to code", how do you do your programming homework? Raspberry Pi?

Every child should code is your starting premise. Not everyone agrees with you. Your initial premise is not necessarily accepted as true.

I think the idea is that at some point everyone will become among "some consumers". But perhaps your use of "consumer", meaning someone who only views works created by others and does not create works, is misleading [gnu.org].

My meaning of consumer is the vernacular meaning of consumer. Please don't assume what I mean.

Re:"Consumer" is part of the problem

[tepples]

And in the era of "every child should learn to code", how do you do your programming homework? Raspberry Pi?

Every child should code is your starting premise. Not everyone agrees with you. Your initial premise is not necessarily accepted as true.

Let me rephrase: And now that governments are adopting policies that "every child should learn to code", how do you do your programming homework?

My meaning of consumer is the vernacular meaning of consumer.

The closest sense I could find on the linked page was "2. Economics. a person or organization that uses a commodity or service." Just to be certain that we are free from equivocation, is this sense what you meant?

Re:"Consumer" is part of the problem

[UnknowingFool]

Let me rephrase: And now that governments are adopting policies that "every child should learn to code", how do you do your programming homework?

With a PC. To be clear, I have never said that PCs are to be banned. My point was that for most people the PC was the only way to do things in the past. When smartphones and tablets became available, people have stopped buying as many PCs because they don't need them. There will always be a need for PCs for some people.

The closest sense I could find on the linked page was "2. Economics. a person or organization that uses a commodity or service." Just to be certain that we are free from equivocation [wikipedia.org], is this sense what you meant?

Yes the vernacular meaning of consumer if you have been reading the thread.

Re:"Consumer" is part of the problem

[Blaskowicz]

Let's say you are in the market for an electric oven. You are a consumer when shopping for the oven, rather than making it yourself. Doesn't mean you're limited to baking pre-made items such as ready-made pizzas. Some of the oven users might expect to cook their own food in it.

Re:"Consumer" is part of the problem

[UnknowingFool]

You've merged two definitions of consumer into one. The term consumer of how I meant is the vernacular meaning of consumer as in the average consumer. It was not the "consumer" vs "producer" term that tepples wanted to argue.

Re:"Consumer" is part of the problem

[Grishnakh]

Let me rephrase: And now that governments are adopting policies that "every child should learn to code", how do you do your programming homework?

Simple: on a tablet.

Surely someone can come up with some super-simplified programming environment for tablets, much like LOGO from the 70s/80s. The code would just run in a sandbox, and wouldn't do a whole lot, but for a teaching tool for children, it should be sufficient.

5th graders don't need a full-blown programming environment with hardware access. When I was young, we got along just fine with Apple ][ computers and learning BASIC to do some very primitive graphics programming. It'd be easy to make something like that for a modern tablet computer.

Re:Or Will They?

[Dracos]

As soon as they make a MacBook with a touchscreen or an iPad with a Keyboard... hey, wait a second!

Re:Unfortunately, Microsoft will rake in the marke

[Lanforod]

Pick any of the following that you like: Spying on their users, collaborating with the NSA, donating money to immoral causes, monopolistic tendencies, churning out shit products with terrible support.

So all the things that Apple and Google are doing as well, eh?

Re:Or Will They?

[Plumpaquatsch]

Or will they, in two years form now?

Or maybe they let somebody else do it almost 9 years ago. http://www.modbook.com/

Google: bluetooth model m

[tepples]

Feeling lucky? First result for bluetooth model m

Re:Google: bluetooth model m

[fluffernutter]

This is an adapter solution not a full keyboard solution. I did a google too and didn't see an actual mechanical switch keyboard being sold with bluetooth in the top 10 entries or so. I also searched on 'daskeyboard bluetooth' and it doesn't seem like there is one.

Re:Google: bluetooth model m

[Plumpaquatsch]

This is an adapter solution not a full keyboard solution. I did a google too and didn't see an actual mechanical switch keyboard being sold with bluetooth in the top 10 entries or so. I also searched on 'daskeyboard bluetooth' and it doesn't seem like there is one.

So use a wired solution - https://www.afterpad.com/best-... - scroll down about 45% to "Mechanical Keyboards"

But since you are complaining because you fucking love to complain...

Re:Google: bluetooth model m

[fluffernutter]

So let me get this straight... The article writer his/her self says that they had a very hard time finding one, and the only full-sized one is called 'Rapoo'. So you're suggesting I should buy something called 'Rapoo' and that I should feel comforted that my tablet keyboard needs will be met with it. Interesting. Really I lost interest in this conversation long ago because there are a great many other things that would stop me from using a tablet quite frankly. Starting by the fact that I often switch between many windows and need to sometimes see three or four windows at once.

Re:Google: bluetooth model m

[Plumpaquatsch]

Wow, you really are only here to complain - thanks for the confirmation.

Re:Google: bluetooth model m

[fluffernutter]

No, you're just not accepting my point. That's ok I'm used to it on Slashdot.

Re:Google: bluetooth model m

[Plumpaquatsch]

You don't have a point, apart from the one on your hat.

Well of COURSE NOT

[p51d007]

It would damage their revenue stream.

Totally backwards

[Dan East]

He has it totally backwards (on purpose). Of course running OSX on an iPad is a bad idea. What would be far more useful is a Macbook with a touchscreen (AKA welcome to the 21st century Macbook!) that can run iOS apps in addition to OSX apps.

Re:Totally backwards

[cfalcon]

I'm sad you aren't modded up. This is clearly a good idea. I suspect this is waiting for them to find a way to run ios apps in OS X, and then that would just be a feature they could hand macs in general.

Re:Totally backwards

[Plumpaquatsch]

He has it totally backwards (on purpose). Of course running OSX on an iPad is a bad idea. What would be far more useful is a Macbook with a touchscreen (AKA welcome to the 21st century Macbook!) that can run iOS apps in addition to OSX apps.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

Re:on the flip side, what the Surface fails to do

[Overzeetop]

"Microsoft has, year after year and in new and amazing ways, failed to put the end user experience first."

Look around at the computers people use. 95% run Windows. Its not about user experience, it's that for 95% of the work people do, Microsoft provides the tools to get it done. Their UX sucks from a warm-fuzzy, on the go lifestyle perspective (I just got a surface and they've got quite a way to go to smooth out the software edges), but they can be exceptionally efficient work machines.

FWIW, when I stop into most coffee shops I see phones (typically of all types, but primarily flagship models from the majors: Apple, Samsung, with the occasional LG or Moto) and I see MacBooks. Very, very few people are using ANY kind of tablet.

Nothing wrong with that.

[Phics]

I sense Don Norman's influence here. I agree with Cook, and I'm not really much of an Apple fan. There's nothing wrong with avoiding the, (as I see it), trap of trying to be everything to everyone. This might be an old PARC mentality, but I think that purpose driven devices with shared intelligence and data sources is a really smart way to see the future of information tech. The real hurdle is getting everyone to agree on how those devices should communicate. My Motorola 360, for example, is woefully crippled at the hands of my company iPhone 6's rather mediocre level of integration. Yes, I know that in today's mindset, expecting integration between Android and iOS devices is ludicrous, but that's kind of my point - it shouldn't be. That said, there's not nearly as much to complain about when pairing Apple devices with other Apple devices, and I'd almost be a little disappointed to see that replaced with an iMacPadPhone, just as I've always had an uncontrollable eye-twitch when it comes to the MS Surface.

Great!

[Lumpy]

Now bring back the Fucking 17" Macbook Pro.

Stupidest thing to remove from their lineup in decades.

OS X and iOS will converge someday (probably)

[sjbe]

How many times has Apple said they wouldn't ever do something and then later done it? Apple says they'd never do something all the time so I wouldn't put much stock in such statements. Jobs was famous for doing that.

The fact is that it makes a ton of economic sense to have iOS and OS X converge into a single operating system. Right now we aren't at a place where that makes sense yet (see Microsoft) but I can't really see Apple keeping two operating systems indefinitely. Apple, Google and Microsoft are all trying to some degree to converge their software to a single platform. It's a difficult thing to do so progress has been slow but there has been progress all the same. I don't really care what Tim Cook says on the matter because I think it will happen sooner or later.

Re:OS X and iOS will converge someday (probably)

[cfalcon]

The big problem is the degree of locked-downedness. Ios prides itself on being pretty invincible, to the point of being really hard to jailbreak. OS X is a machine you have full control over. These philosophies differ at their core. You could put an Ios sandbox on a Mac, and maybe they'll do that some day, but going the other way seems unlikely.

Re:OS X and iOS will converge someday (probably)

[Plumpaquatsch]

How many times has Apple said they wouldn't ever do something and then later done it?

Far less often than the times they said they wouldn't ever do something and then later actually didn't. But they sure will change their mind about the netbook real soon.

Mod Parent Up

[jddj]

This is really the thing.

That Tim Cook says he's not merging the two is only somewhat comforting (after his "why would anyone buy a PC?" line - perhaps he thinks the Mac is not a PC, but uhhh...)

I really, really, really dislike iOS, and hate most of the changes that have come over Mac OS since Snow Leopard, with the possible exception of tightened security (they haven't done a great job with this from an ease-of-use standpoint - it's kinda buggy).

It's like Apple is trying to turn Mac OS into iOS through the back door. #donotwant

"I left my Ethernet dongle at home."

[tepples]

I can count on about 3 fingers the number of times I've plugged my MacBook Pro into a terrestrial Ethernet cable.

Such as every time you buy a router, to set up the MAC whitelist and other wireless security settings. From Michael Horowitz's Router Security Checklist:

2. LOCAL ADMINISTRATION
[...]
* Can admin access be limited to Ethernet only?
[...]
* Can access be restricted by MAC address?
[...]
10. MAC ADDRESS FILTERING
I am well aware that MAC address filtering is far from perfect. That said, it does make it harder for bad guys to get on to your network.

This can increase even further if you're using your laptop to set up the home networks of relatives and neighbors. So you end up having to either carry the dongle with you or make excuses:

"Could you help me set up my router?"
"I'm sorry, I can't right now."
"But I can see you have your laptop with you."
"I left my Ethernet dongle at home."

Re:"I left my Ethernet dongle at home."

[tepples]

To clarify: I have nothing against dongles in principle. All I'm really trying to say is that the dongle has to be included in the total cost of ownership.

Everything in post #50941423 after "science" was uncalled for.

Re:"I left my Ethernet dongle at home."

[macs4all]

Such as every time you buy a router,

Not if it's an Airport Router...

Re:"I left my Ethernet dongle at home."

[ShanghaiBill]

All I'm really trying to say is that the dongle has to be included in the total cost of ownership.

Since 95% of Macbook users don't have it, and don't need it, it is not part of TCO.

Re:"I left my Ethernet dongle at home."

[tepples]

Then how do 95 percent of MacBook users set up Wi-Fi on their home routers?

Re:"I left my Ethernet dongle at home."

[JazzLad]

With their PCs?

/ducks!

Re:"I left my Ethernet dongle at home."

[ShanghaiBill]

Then how do 95 percent of MacBook users set up Wi-Fi on their home routers?

I use a 7 year old USB-to-CAT5 dongle. Since then, my wife, daughter, son, and I, have collectively owned more than a dozen laptops. There is no need to have a dongle for every laptop.

Re:"I left my Ethernet dongle at home."

[Hognoxious]

They pay someone from DweepPlatoon 150 bucks to do it. It all goes on mom's credit card anyway.

Re:"I left my Ethernet dongle at home."

[graphius]

If this is your normal use case, a $200 laptop running some form of Linux would probably be much more cost effective, or maybe use your relatives computer to set up said router....

Re:"I left my Ethernet dongle at home."

[angel'o'sphere]

Via Wifi, ofc ;D

And in most countries routers either are preconfigured and the owners never change anything, or the router is configured according to your needs via phone call to your provider.

Or do you really believe the chicks I date in Paris only date me because "I could" configure the router? Cough cough ...

E.g. if you are a customer of free.fr, you call them, they name your network, you plug in your computers, they register the mac addresses or what ever you want, most ppl prefer passwords as they have friends visiting ... which like to use the wifi, too.

Re:"I left my Ethernet dongle at home."

[bingoUV]

So the "150 bucks" needs to be included in TCO.

Re:"I left my Ethernet dongle at home."

[Plumpaquatsch]

10. MAC ADDRESS FILTERING I am well aware that MAC address filtering is far from perfect.

Actually, it's just as pointless as SSID-hiding.

Re: "I left my Ethernet dongle at home."

[tepples]

Why would you need an Ethernet cable for a home router?

To recover in case you mess up the wireless configuration and end up inadvertently locking yourself out.

I use my iPad with the Airport Utility

Express or Extreme? Either way, if you rely on features specific to AirPort routers in order to avoid a wired connection, you may need to include the price difference between AirPort and comparable products from other brands (such as Linksys or NETGEAR) in the TCO.

Re:"I left my Ethernet dongle at home."

[neoritter]

No it's not. When you have MAC address filtering, it's easier to detect devices that should not be on the network, even if they're spoofing the address. SSID hiding is also still worthwhile as it can help determine if there's an evil twin or a rogue access point.

Re:"I left my Ethernet dongle at home."

[david_thornley]

The last time I switched service, the technician left the router with WiFi turned on. If you buy a router, it comes with simple setup instructions, easy to follow. You know, I'm trying to think of the last time my laptop had an Ethernet cable plugged into it, and I'm not coming up with a memory in the last few years.

Re:"I left my Ethernet dongle at home."

[Plumpaquatsch]

No it's not. When you have MAC address filtering, it's easier to detect devices that should not be on the network, even if they're spoofing the address. SSID hiding is also still worthwhile as it can help determine if there's an evil twin or a rogue access point.

Do you even know how easy MAC spoofing is? Probably not, taking the general knowledge you have shown in this thread as a hint.

Re:"I left my Ethernet dongle at home."

[neoritter]

Are you stupid? I just mentioned spoofing. How easy it is, isn't relevant. You still have to know the MAC of the devices connecting to the wAP. You're limited to trying to connect when the device you're spoofing isn't connected to the network, otherwise detection is really easy.

Don't get your panties in a twist just because I'm explaining how wrong you are and that chafes your sensibilities.

Re:"I left my Ethernet dongle at home."

[Plumpaquatsch]

Are you stupid? I just mentioned spoofing. How easy it is, isn't relevant. You still have to know the MAC of the devices connecting to the wAP.

IOW, all you have to listen for the MAC of one devices connecting to the wAP., and you cracked MAC address filtering. Thanks for proving my point.

Re:"I left my Ethernet dongle at home."

[neoritter]

You completely ignored my point moron. Do you know what happens when devices with the same MAC connect to a network?

Re:"I left my Ethernet dongle at home."

[Plumpaquatsch]

You completely ignored my point moron. Do you know what happens when devices with the same MAC connect to a network?

I do. What do you? Will it explode? Will your magical MAC address blocking detect that? What? What do you think your point is, apart from trying to peddle a "solution" that is nothing but a annoyance to users, but doesn't solve any security problems?

Re:"I left my Ethernet dongle at home."

[neoritter]

Answer the question. Do you know what happens when two devices with the same MAC address connect to a network?

And at what point did I say that MAC address filtering is an effective block. Go look over my comments you idiot. You raging idiot.

Re:"I left my Ethernet dongle at home."

[Plumpaquatsch]

Answer the question. Do you know what happens when two devices with the same MAC address connect to a network?

As far as MAC filtering is concerned: it defeats it. Did you have anything but "the network explodes" in mind?

It means they will...

[cpotoso]

When a company/politician claims they will not do something... it means they will. If not, consider all the times that apple has said they had no plans for a phone/tablet/pen computing/etc, only to do it a few months/years later. It just means they are not capable of doing it now, but they will eventually. So obvious....

Awesome, now stop the War on Ports

[exabrial]

Just bought a MacBook, because OSX is the ultimate Unix development platform. But I also had to buy a Gig-E dongle, and if you buy a MacBook Air, you have to buy a USB-C dongle, and an Ethernet Dongle, and none of your thunderbolt accessories work anymore.

The dudes at the Apple store say, "everything will be wireless eventually" well that's a great theory, but 1) It's not wireless right now 2) Even if it were, in a high density office environment, there is simply not enough wireless spectrum allocated in the USA for 200 users in a 35,000 ft^2 space to have a Gig-E wireless connection.

So stop the stupidity. Gig-E ports should be standard on your "Pro" models. Consumer or Home models, I understand the philosophy, but not on the Pro.

Re:Awesome, now stop the War on Ports

[MassacrE]

How on earth would you expect a macbook to have a gig-E port?

Seriously, where would you put it?

Re:Awesome, now stop the War on Ports

[exabrial]

Well... On the left side. Definitely on on the lid. Probably not in the middle of the keyboard.

Plenty of manufacturers have figured out how to do this, certainly Apple can.

Re:Awesome, now stop the War on Ports

[hcs_$reboot]

Exactly. Just bought a MBP too and no RJ45?! Well, I knew beforehand, but having to purchase another device (adapter) to connect to a wired network - that you have then to carry everywhere - is ridiculous. What on Earth does the "Pro" in Macbook Pro means??

Re:Awesome, now stop the War on Ports

[hcs_$reboot]

We're talking about a RJ45 port, you know it's smaller than this.jpg

Winding up...

[cloud.pt]

What that would wind up doing is product cannibalization - Apple doesn't want to lose market share on tablets nor the premium ultra portable notebook (which they pretty much have on both) by doing a more expensive product that will induce the buyer on second thoughts, and making him skip that day-1 urge to get in line and buy the next iThingie.

the actual quote

[slashmydots]

"We feel strongly that nobody will sell us an efficient x86 CPU because we're such unfair, lying, backstabbing assholes to our hardware vendors."

Wired internet does not need an ethernet port ...

[perpenso]

No built-in network port on the latest laptops, even the supposedly professional grade MacBook Pro. If you tell me that most users don't need network ports, I and the rest of Slashdot will collectively laugh in your face. And, no, the add-on dongle does not count.

You know what does count. The ethernet port being on the monitor and the wired internet being delivered via the thunderbolt connector. Wired internet does not necessarily need an ethernet port on the laptop itself. When you are somehow "docked" at your desk you have more options than that. My MacBook Pro has an ethernet port, it is the 2nd least used port, only the firewire port is least used. Thunderbolt having made both obsolete, moving both to thunderbolt dongles for rare "legacy" uses seems an appropriate move. Moving to the current MacBook Pro would have no impact to myself nor many other MacBook Pro users with older models equipped with an ethernet port.

For devices file system is "cloud" based ...

[perpenso]

The real killer for productivity in iOS is the lack of user space accessible file system. Either they have to open the up to iOS users - and take the security hit, or they have to hide it from OS X users (over our dead 17 inch laptops).

For mobile devices your file system is "cloud" based. Local storage is just a cache.

Apple is probably correct that taking convergence to the point of merging a tablet and a laptop is going too far, counterproductive. Well, at least for the software. Hardware that might work. Basically the "laptop" has no integrated screen, the "tablet" docks with it in order to use the "laptop". However when docked the "tablet" is just a "display". It is only a "computer" itself when it is undocked. So the "laptop" runs MacOS X and the "tablet" is just a "display". When undocked the "tablet" now runs iOS and offers its own user interface. That might be as far as convergence should go. Yes, storage should sync when docked. Yes, iOS may be running in the background when docked and offer MacOS X the ability to offload some computational work. Maybe the "laptop" is just a keyboard, touchpad and SSD; the CPU on board the "tablet" running MacOS X when docked. Perhaps in a budget system but I personally frown on such an approach because I think the "laptop" should actually have "desktop" grade CPU and video. CPU and video optimized for performance not power consumption. More of a portable "docking station" than a "laptop"? I'm not ruling out running such a "laptop" in a mobile setting on battery, just thinking that doing so for extended periods of time would be more the exception and not the rule so high performance components would be more practical.

Re:Jobs: Apple wont create an iPhone with big scre

[frnic]

I wish I had a moderate point left to rate you up.

All these haters hating on Apple and saying how Apple SHOULD do it, have so much experience running the most valuable company in the world.

Maybe, Apple does what people want and are willing to pay for instead of what a few geeks that hang out on /. want.

Re:None of the above

[R3d M3rcury]

Actually, and it's tough for me to say this, it's OS X. Apple has pretty much dropped the "Mac" from the name.

Though it is still "OS Ten"--not X.

SSH to headless Linux box in closet

[perpenso]

These products [iPad and MacBook] should remain separate.

Where does this leave a high school student who has received an iPad as a gift only to discover that it's not suitable for the programming homework that her computer science teacher has assigned?

The student would SSH to a headless Linux box in a closet somewhere. Hell, a raspberry pi with a wifi adapter would do just fine.

"Tim Cook burped! Film at 11:00."

[GrantRobertson]

This just Apple trashing Windows 10 for having app-ish features. In two - three years Apple will do exactly what he is trashing now and pretend they invented the whole concept.

This is not news.

Re:"Tim Cook burped! Film at 11:00."

[cfalcon]

No no no, it'll be different. It'll be on an Apple product. Totes unsame.

Re:"Tim Cook burped! Film at 11:00."

[hcs_$reboot]

This just Apple trashing Windows 10 for having app-ish features. In two - three years Apple will do exactly what he is trashing now and pretend they invented the whole concept.

This is not news.

Definitely not news. What you say in your post was already written several times on this page, before.

WTF

[angel'o'sphere]

... neither experience would be as good as the customer wants. ...
How do you know that? I *hate* my iPad, because it is not running Mac OS X. And the Bugs, unbelievable. The amount of bugs you encounter in every day usage is just hilarious. What is for funk sake so difficult to release a "hardened" OS X that realizes the App separation that iOS offers and beyond that let simply standard Applications run?

So we want to make the best tablet
In a world where all Tablets are shit, that is not really difficult. The hype about multi finger gestures is over. Face it now: no one wants Apps that are boiled down to nearly nothing and don't cooperate. I have a nice text in my text editor ... can not open it in iBooks ... enough said.
And now web sites are even mimicking the "mobile look and feel" of apps. I simply black list such sites. And the other example: the iPad has a superb web browser. Nevertheless web sites offer me a mobile version by default ... which looks like a wrong programmed app ... how much bandwidth I must have wasted by loading the mobile version and then clicking on "desktop version" ... oh, not clicking: tabbing!

Anyway ... the web browser and very few other apps like iBooks are the only thing that are "useable" on an iPad. Calling it the best tablet is an euphemism.
Switching apps by sweeping with your hand into the wrong direction how hard can it be to grasp that every person who is right handed would sweep into the other direction to go back to the previous app? Actually I believe every person would do that ... and there is not even an option to set that in some preferences (*facepalm*)

in the world and the best Mac in the world.
Yes, by lowering your standards and letting Mac OS X drop down on Windows levels.
WTF: in a few years I have to switch to Linux just because

Re: It's a a valid opinion

[cyber-vandal]

Not being able to upgrade the RAM without buying a whole new computer is why I don't have one. I'm certainly not paying Apple prices for RAM.

Re: It's a a valid opinion

[Applehu Akbar]

Not only did I just add RAM to my 2013 iMac without buying a whole new computer, but unlike with every other machine out there, I didn't have to throw away any of the manufacturer's starter 8 G to add another 16 G.

The real reason

[dudpixel]

Are you sure the real reason isn't just that you want people to continue to buy both a mac and an ipad? creating a hybrid would only compete with both of the other products...

Re: It's a a valid opinion

[bingoUV]

So everyone unwilling to pay Apple prices for RAM should buy 2013 model even in mid 2014 or later?

Re: It's a a valid opinion

[Applehu Akbar]

The 2013 happens to be my model. The RAM expandability applies to all large-screen iMacs.

Unlike Tim Cook

[Osgeld]

I dont have a legion of staff doing all my work for me while I daydream

Re:Unlike Tim Cook

[garote]

No kidding. You wanna answer emails - light on attachments - the iPad is fine. You wanna do anything else business-related, you need a "real computer".

I think there's something a lot of people are missing when they pursue a tablet, or even a laptop that converts into a tablet. A basic fact that just never occurs to them, but ends up highly influencing their level of satisfaction with the product:

A trackpad is more energy-efficient for a human than a touchscreen is.

If you are working in 20 minute intervals, OR pointing at things on a screen about the width of your hand, a touchscreen is fine. But if you are working for eight hours a day and you need to point at things on a large screen, a trackpad is MUCH more efficient.

The touchscreen aspect of the "surface Pro" is fun for the casual user, but a needless gimmick for anyone doing professional work. Microsoft is just treating these two user groups as a converged set, and selling one product to both. An acceptable tactic, as the SUV has shown in the auto industry. It won't be the fastest sedan or the toughest truck - but that hardly matters to the segment of buyers who can only afford one vehicle anyway.

Re: It's a a valid opinion

[bingoUV]

The 2013 happens to be my model

Which you bring up as a reply to someone refusing to have an Apple laptop in 2015.

The RAM expandability applies to all large-screen iMacs.

There was a link in my last post.

Merging iOS and OS X

[sjbe]

The big problem is the degree of locked-downedness. Ios prides itself on being pretty invincible, to the point of being really hard to jailbreak. OS X is a machine you have full control over.

That is not the important difference between them. Most people that buy a Mac could not care less about having full control and many wouldn't know what to do with it even if they did care. Apple is clearly well aware of this.

You could put an Ios sandbox on a Mac, and maybe they'll do that some day, but going the other way seems unlikely.

If I had to put money on Apple going with one or the other right now, I would bet on iOS being the dominant system. I think the market opportunity for iOS is significantly larger so it makes economic sense. I don't think the integration will be in the form of a sandbox. It will be more nuanced than that. I think the code bases will converge over time and you'll see it basically become a single system with different interfaces for various activities.

Re:Merging iOS and OS X

[cfalcon]

> Most people that buy a Mac could not care less about having full control and many wouldn't know what to do with it even if they did care.

I mean, I have no idea on the numbers. I will say that if they tried to get rid of this in some fashion, it would cause a riot in the applesphere. Apple has enough resources to keep an actual machine at their core, with serious capabilities and full user control. The fact that you can use it usefully without pulling up a bash prompt is, of course, their main appeal.

> I think the market opportunity for iOS is significantly larger so it makes economic sense.

No, the market opportunity for ios devices is larger. But OS X is still vastly too important for now- you'd need a version of ios that gives you a command prompt before you could really talk about all that.

I dunno, I don't see them going that direction. They could, but it would weaken what ios is in order to allow the minority of real users the power they need. Seems foolish.

Re:Merging iOS and OS X

[david_thornley]

Apple needs people to develop for OS X and iOS. Assuming Apple wants people to do that development on Apple products, Apple has to let developers compile programs. Therefore, some Apple OS has to be comfortable with having random buggy executables running, and downloading whatever from wherever and installing it.

Re:on the flip side, what the Surface fails to do

[Plumpaquatsch]

"Microsoft has, year after year and in new and amazing ways, failed to put the end user experience first."

Look around at the computers people use. 95% run Windows.

Sure (*). But not on Surfaces
(*) More like "suuuure", but that's beside the point

Why do you need a PC? You already have...

[tepples]

A parent is more likely to buy a throw rug and a computer for someone than to buy an iPad and a computer for someone. "Why do you need a PC? You already have an iPad." sounds more plausible than "Why do you need a PC? You already have a throw rug."

Blah blah

[MoarSauce123]

Apple also said that large phones are stupid, small tablets are moronic, and a stylus is for losers. Cook is only miffed because he didn't have that idea.