Ex-CIA Director Says Snowden Should Be 'Hanged' For Paris Attacks (thehill.com)

SonicSpike writes with this excerpt from The HIll: A former CIA director says leaker Edward Snowden should be convicted of treason and given the death penalty in the wake of the terrorist attack on Paris. "It's still a capital crime, and I would give him the death sentence, and I would prefer to see him hanged by the neck until he's dead, rather than merely electrocuted," James Woolsey told CNN's Brooke Baldwin on Thursday. Woolsey said Snowden, who divulged classified information in 2013, is partly responsible for the terrorist attack in France last week that left at least 120 dead and hundreds injured. "I think the blood of a lot of these French young people is on his hands," he said.

Comments

Sounds like a psycopath.

[Anonymous Coward]

Also, Snowden doesn't have anyone's blood on his hands. Nice try tho

Re:Sounds like a psycopath.

[JMJimmy]

Ya, especially since the attackers were communicating on an unencrypted cell network. This is a purely political statement to move their surveillance agenda along.

Re:Sounds like a psycopath.

[Anonymous Coward]

"Yo woolsey, u mad bro?"

- Snowden

Re: Sounds like a psycopath.

[bill_mcgonigle]

How can anybody run the CIA and not be a psychopath? This "execute first, follow the Rule of Law never" attitude should surprise nobody who has been paying attention - except perhaps that they're now emboldened to say it out of the shadows.

Re: Sounds like a psycopath.

[KGIII]

I'd like to think that I could, but I realize that makes me ineligible.

Re:Sounds like a psycopath.

[stooo]

Ex-CIA Director Says
The press relays

Re: Sounds like a psycopath.

[Anonymous Coward]

... And cover their own asses. Afterall there has been no meaningful changes to protect our privacy in Europe from US/UK snooping. The US UK mass surveillance of France comms is still in place. Yet his mass surveillance DID NOT WORK. Terrorists still met, still talked, exchanged weapons and explosives all the while his $10 billion surveillance operation FAILED.

People wonder why he was looking as internet browser history instead of tracking machine guns and explosives!

Re:Sounds like a psycopath.

[h33t l4x0r]

It's a brilliant move.

* Make a politically charged statement during a time of real crisis that makes little sense yet evokes an emotional response.
* Get invited to Fox and Friends
* ???
* Profit!

Re: Sounds like a psycopath.

[amiga3D]

The reason is that they don't concentrate their resources. They spy on everyone. Instead of concentrating on real threats they consider everyone a threat. Trying to find a terrorist out of a 100,000 suspects is one thing. Picking a terrorist out of 7.3 billion people is an entirely different thing. It's simple, they are incompetent. He should be fired with no pension.

Re: Sounds like a psycopath.

[amiga3D]

ack...he's ex-cia director. Too late to fire him.

Re:Sounds like a psycopath.

[TheRaven64]

Your link doesn't go anywhere, which makes me think that it's a retracted story based on the initial announcement, which turned out to be incorrect.

Re: Sounds like a psycopath.

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, the Paris police said they were not using encryption. This was reported on CNN. In addition, the Xbox encrypted comm. story turned out to be false as well.

Re: Sounds like a psycopath.

[Anonymous Coward]

Surveillance works just fine for its intended purpose - controlling the ones being surveiled. If they wanted to catch thugs they would infiltrate their environment and snoop on their communications using the existing legal framework. It should be obvious by now that THE purpose of MASS surveillance is controlling the PUBLIC and any arguments to the contrary are deliberate misinformation.

Re: Sounds like a psycopath.

[mobby_6kl]

Well, we can still hang him to make an example!

Re:Sounds like a psycopath.

[Runaway1956]

Easier to accept that the CIA director and various other top government officials should be hanged.

Re: Sounds like a psycopath.

[khasim]

It's kind of hard to know who the real threats are without spying on people...

Bullshit. The point is that they were spying on EVERYONE. And being lazy about it.

Checking SPECIFIC people whom you have a VALID REASON to suspect is different.

The amount of data they're collecting is impossible to process in any useful fashion UNTIL AFTER SOMETHING HAPPENS.

Unless you want to spy on your ex-girlfriend or the cute barista who isn't interested in you. Too many opportunities for abuse.

Re:Sounds like a psycopath.

[jellomizer]

Making a secure end-to-end encryption isn't rocket science... If the terrorist know or expect that consumer devices have a government back door, they will just make their own that doesn't have one. Sadly to say, many of these terrorists are educated engineers, they can do the work with a little amount capital.

All these laws do is make a back door so the terrorists/hackers can look at my personal data as well.

Re:Sounds like a psycopath.

[TheRealHocusLocus]

Ya, especially since the attackers were communicating on an unencrypted cell network. This is a purely political statement to move their surveillance agenda along.

You're spot on. There's a cadre of retired intel who, like aging Hollywood actors providing voice talent, get 'tapped' to emerge from retirement and give an press interview or two to drop 'venerable old spook' seed quotes that Opinion columns can churn. I really do believe these people are called up and someone says, "We have an assignment for you. Plant this idea."

Retirees can emerge from the fog, drop their seeds and retreat, there is no unscripted follow-up. Politicians could not do this without having to field questions about their remarks at future press conferences. It is a bug in the human psyche that retired politicians are ascribed more credibility than those in power. They also become 'nonpartisan' in retirement and Opinion columnists of either party can pick up their remarks and without appearing to cross the line.

Crisis: Snowden brand is becoming too popular, achieving folk hero status.
Mission: Tie Snowden to Paris attacks, disingenuously if necessary. Be emotional, tactless and tearful.
Target demographic: People who believe a retiree is 'leaking' old secrets for the betterment of man.
Assigned to: R. James Woolsey, Jr., Director CIA under Clinton

Remember the Clinton Administration and his hatchet-man Al Gore, who made the rounds to Congress trying to sell the idea that it was time to outlaw all non-escrow encryption and impose a single government standard? It's that Woolsey, trying to pull the Woolsey over our eyes again.

There are others. Remember in the early days after 9/11, when Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz used practiced 'aggrieved old man scowls' to shut down questions they didn't like to hear at press conferences, leave them unanswered? And how the fawning press stopped asking those questions? The aggrieved old man bit really works, especially with young reporters.

It distresses me to see the bumbling neocon idiots who built their entire careers on the Big Lie, disregarding their own CIA intel and deceiving the public about threat level (Documentary: The Power of Nightmares) are now being 'tapped' for Middle East analyst sound bites. Every time Wolfowitz, Rumsfeld, Chaney or Pearl are quoted the bile rises in my throat. Likewise do old Democrats like Woolsey whose attempted Orwellian schemes I, for one, will never forget.

Re: Sounds like a psycopath.

[guruevi]

All those arrests came after good ole police detective work. None of those cases were aided by mass surveillance and the US has admitted as much.

Re: Sounds like a psycopath.

[rmdingler]

ack...he's ex-cia director. Too late to fire him.

Exactly; he's an ex-director of the CIA. What would you expect him to say?

"This whole nightmarish terrorist situation is all our fault, and it turns out we were asleep at the wheel."

Re: Sounds like a psycopath.

[orlanz]

No one is saying Do NOT spy. It's spy on a smaller set of people. Right now the ratio of data to information is too high. The background noise is too high to obtain any valuable signal. At best it will help you work backward from an incident*. But this level of data won't help you predict.

People make this false assumption all the time. The more data I have the more information I have. And if it doesn't make sense now, it will later on so collect it. No, you only collect enough data to give a more and more accurate representation of the population. At one point of collection the inferrences you want start becoming insignificant in the information and become impossible to ascertain from the noise.

Take for example fingerprints. If you collect every ones print in the world, then prints at crime scenes become useless. You will have so many false positives from so man matches. If you up the number of data points you look at to uniquely identify a print, you need high quality prints collected. A small smudge will give you zero hits or a bunch of false positives again. And the searching and DB maintenance would be huge.

It is better to fill your data population with valuable, target rich information than to just fill it with data. Quality matters over quantity.

This is what intelligence agencies in the past did, mostly because they didn't have the resources to search through all data nor could they collect as much. But now the means of collection may have changed and the speed of inferences; but the fundamentals of answering a question on said data has not. It like having a multiple choice question where there are 50+ choices and the last will always say "None of the above".

* = but I guess this is what the politicians and populace really want and is the driving force here. How did this happen is more important than when will this happen. Sad times.

Re: Sounds like a psycopath.

[LVSlushdat]

Not too late to try *him* for treason.. Him and a vast majority of the previous and current administrations should be behind bars for treason.... Just my (and a lot of other Americans) opinion...

Re: Sounds like a psycopath.

[SwashbucklingCowboy]

"No one is saying Do NOT spy. It's spy on a smaller set of people."

And the people they concentrate on is a much smaller set. It's not like they're recording everyone's conversations.

Re: Sounds like a psycopath.

[SwashbucklingCowboy]

lol

And maybe the Russians were wrong or lying. And that's just one instance troll.

Re: Sounds like a psycopath.

[Tyr07]

That's because the masses are the real threat. Small groups hurting innocent people are not a real threat to those in power.
They have all the security they need.

They're far more concerned with people voting them out or otherwise movements that would remove them from power. So they want to monitor everyone before hand so they can stop any movements before they gain enough traction to remove them from power. No one likes to give it up.

Re: Sounds like a psycopath.

[haruchai]

Woolsey is part of the reason Americans were in favor of invadiing Iraq; he made comments about Iraqi complicity in 9/11 the VERY NEXT DAY and on several more occasions over the next few years.
Whatever he wishes for Snowden should be tried on him 1st.

Re:Sounds like a psycopath.

[nctritech]

See, herein lies the problem with the surveillance society. Once the watchers demonize encrypted communications as a tool only the Bad People(TM) would use, unencrypted, innocent-seeming messages become the communication tool of choice. This is "being hidden in plain sight." If you want to hide in a sea of automated data analysis, you simply duck your head below the noise threshold.

Re: Sounds like a psycopath.

[Hognoxious]

This. When you're struggling to find a needle in a haystack expanding the search to a whole field full of them might be a little bit counterproductive.

Re: Sounds like a psycopath.

[currently_awake]

They undermine American security by diluting their intelligence efforts to the point they can't achieve anything and they have a multi-national conspiracy to subvert the law of the land. I am not a lawyer but that could be construed as meeting the requirements of treason under US law.

Re: Sounds like a psycopath.

[Anonymous Coward]

>>If somebody thinks mass surveillance isn't needed or isn't useful, they're wrong.

Riddle me this. People in US prisons are under constant servalince yet murders and secret plots to escape happen all the time. Why do you want society to be under more servalince than people in jail?

Re:Sounds like a psycopath.

[rholtzjr]

Also sounds a little disgruntled that Snowden beat them in their own backyard and even playing by their rules.

Re: Sounds like a psycopath.

[TWX]

The news has reported that many of the attackers, prior to recent radicalization were shiftless layabouts with no particular interest in their religion and violated most of the popular tenets of it. They drank. They had sex. They did drugs. They obviously weren't praying on a schedule.

This changed within the last few weeks to transform them from this into people willing to kill themselves. Find that catalyst and you not only find the people that masterminded the attacks but you also find the particular weaknesses that allowed these people that seemed to have nothing to do with their religion to be transformed into willing pawns for sacrifice. Maybe knowing what these weaknesses are can help societies identify hotbeds where this radicalization occurs and put a stop to it before the pattern repeats.

I'll give you one hint, when people feel like they belong they're a lot harder to exploit. When they feel connections with their neighbors, with the government officials they elect, even to an extent with the police, they are much less likely to try to tear-down the system in which they live. That neighborhood in Brussels that's described as a major source of terrorist development clearly has something unhealthy going on if the residents do not have this connection. Figure out why they feel isolated. Is it jobs? Is it racism? Is it religious bigotry even if they aren't particularly subscribing to "their" religion? Is it feeling bad about themselves because they're unemployed while the non-Muslims are employed? Figure it out and address it and perhaps this problem will actually go away.

Re: Sounds like a psycopath.

[Gr8Apes]

And, sadly, in only 1 case may the surveillance have provided any information that wasn't already known through good ole police detective work (and the public that called in tips from suspicious activity, like the public should be doing anyways when they see or notice very odd things going on next door).

Re: Sounds like a psycopath.

[peragrin]

Here is the issue with that

In China a once in a million year type event happens 1,300 times a year

Even a false positive rate of .0001% is 13 things to check out daily.

No one gets false positives that low.

Re: Sounds like a psycopath.

[unencode200x]

You bring up some great points. This almost sounds like something out of the X-Files.

Please were fine one day and the next they're brainwashed almost to the point of mind control. It just makes me wonder what in the hell is going on.

Re: Sounds like a psycopath.

[easyTree]

You might notice that no-one in power has ever had the laws apply to them. This isn't an accident.

Re: Sounds like a psycopath.

[Strangely Familiar]

Yeah, because the Russians have a huge motivation to constantly pass false tips about terrorists to American intelligence operations. They are so devious!!! They know if they constantly pass us false tips, our FBI and CIA will use up all their resources chasing their tails. Way to put that troll in its place! That time they told us about the Boston Marathon bomber was probably just a mistake. Obviously, we should ignore tips from unreliable people like the Russians and border patrol agents, and double down on mass surveillance.

Re: Sounds like a psycopath.

[easyTree]

How do you know the specific people to spy on, if you are unable to look through large amounts of meta data to discover who is talking with known terrorists?

Just check which groups you've hired for the false flag operation?
Duh.

Re:Sounds like a psycopath.

[unixisc]

Also, Snowden doesn't have anyone's blood on his hands. Nice try tho

Precisely!!! How is it Snowden's fault that political parties throughout the West refuse to recognize that Islam - not Radical Islam, not 'Islamism', not Radical Jihad - is the problem, and that the more Muslims they allow into the West, the greater the probability that something like the attacks in Paris will happen?

Had there been a surveillance program on all Muslims, and had Snowden exposed and caused that to end, then he would have had blood on his hands. But that's not what he did. He blew the lid on a surveillance program on everybody

Re: Sounds like a psycopath.

[unixisc]

I dunno whether you consider Rand Paul within the Right Wing, but Ted Cruz too opposes this unlimited wiretap program. The Right Wing, like the Left Wing, is split on this issue. I wonder what the official stands of Hilary and Bernie are on this one?

Re: Sounds like a psycopath.

[laird]

Exactly. Friends in the security business tell me that these data mining leads have large negative value, because they require human effort to follow up on, and so far have a 0% success rate, meaning the pull resources away from more productive leads. Unfortunately the non-technical leadership LOVES the idea of data mining magically finding the bad guys, and keep pushing the programs forward.

Re: Sounds like a psycopath.

[Lorens]

The news has reported that many of the attackers, prior to recent radicalization were shiftless layabouts with no particular interest in their religion and violated most of the popular tenets of it. They drank. They had sex. They did drugs. They obviously weren't praying on a schedule.

One of them actually owned and operated a bar (which was closed three months ago for drug-related activities).

Re: Sounds like a psycopath.

[skywire]

Ernest Becker, in his The Denial of Death, writes that human beings deal with their awareness of their inevitable demise by seeking heroism -- success at doing or contributing to something lasting. Each culture has its own hero-system. In a pluralist society, if one's need for heroism is not being met, one will turn to a system that does meet that need.

Re: Sounds like a psycopath.

[arth1]

How do you know the specific people to spy on, if you are unable to look through large amounts of meta data to discover who is talking with known terrorists?

The problem is that the amount of data is so vast that it's worthless unless you know exactly what you're looking for. And if you know exactly what you're looking for, you have to have gotten that from somewhere else, and can narrow your search.
It's the same problem as STASI had - too much information meant that they became near powerless, because even 5% of your population in your employ wasn't enough to go through all that data and reliably separate the wheat from the chaff.

What the CIA wants all the data for is to be able to make retroactive surveillance. It's not preemptive in any way.

Re: Sounds like a psycopath.

[rainer_d]

I bet the various three-letter agencies (and part of the military) secretly envies IS.
They sure would like to have soldiers as motivated and brainless as them.
Of course, you can't win a war with soldiers like that - but as it has always been, the right people start profiting from war the minute it starts, not when it's over.

Re: Sounds like a psycopath.

[arth1]

Not understanding statistics is part of this, I believe.

If a data mining program claims to identify 99% of all border-crossing e-mails between terrorists, with only a 1% false positive rate, the unthinking suit wearing managers and politicians will wet themselves with excitement.

Now consider that there may be 1000 terrorists in the US that use e-mail.
And an average e-mail users sends or receives a total of 10 e-mails across the border per day.
And a (conservative) estimate of half a billion e-mails crossing the US borders every day.
That means they'll "catch" more than five million suspicious e-mails every day, and less than 0.5% of those will be to or from a terrorist. Anyone "caught" in that drag will have a 99.5% chance of being innocent.
Do they have the resources to investigate millions of people every day, and correctly identify the overwhelming number of false positives through other means?

In reality, I expect the numbers are much much worse. Especially in the aftermath of attacks, where people are far more likely to mention key words like Syria, Kalashnikov, explosive, alluha akbar or Paris.

Collecting more hay is not a good way to find more needles in haystacks.

Re:Sounds like a psycopath.

[mjm1231]

Linked article works, but specifically states that the original story was retracted.

Re:Sounds like a psycopath.

[Burz]

Fear not, the Clintons have made 'getting in on the act' their career. Bill Clinton picked up the neocon script back in 1998, stating that Iraq had WMD and Saddam had to be deposed: https://www.youtube.com/watch?...

Some reading about Hillary's favorite neocons (having become one herself):

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07...
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06...
https://consortiumnews.com/201...

Re: Sounds like a psycopath.

[Cruciform]

As Snowden pointed out in his interview the data they collect isn't useful for stopping terrorists. It just lets them create a historical profile of every person so that when they decide you are an enemy they can pick through your life and get the dirt on you.

It's a database of dirty deeds and associations. A machine made to discredit one's opponents.

Re: Sounds like a psycopath.

[TWX]

Look at parallels in Christianity. How many people that self-identify as Christian actually go to church weekly? Regularly? For holidays? How many know the name(s) of the official(s) that run the church that they claim to be a member of? How many actually stop to consider the rules about coveting what others have?

How many Christians even understand why Christ sacrificed himself on the cross?

Now, consider how many of the Christians that are easily described by this scenario would argue bitterly and violently how Christianity is the true religion and how, "their," faith is correct and all others are wrong, while they single-handedly do not understand or follow the tenets of, "their," faith.

I suspect this is what we're seeing in these terrorists. They are literally useful idiots and are used as pawns by the actual players behind the scenes. And they don't even know that they're being played.

Re: Sounds like a psycopath.

[unencode200x]

That makes more sense than my tin-foil hat theories, although it's not as cool.

On a more serious note, it's interesting to see how religion seemingly defines and divides cultures to the point where they start killing each other. Taking a deeper look though, the wars, fighting and hatred, usually start from the top. Some cleric or leader that uses religion, "values," or other bullshit to incite the masses and further their own agendas. Usually said agendas are financial and less commonly megalomaniac insanity.

Re: Sounds like a psycopath.

[Cederic]

Sorry, are you replying to the AC or to Woolsey?

Re: Sounds like a psycopath.

[TWX]

Yeah, I know it isn't especially cool but so far it isn't failing the Occam's Razor test. What's even more insidious about it is that as people get defensive when their faith is called into question they usually get more violent in their defense of it. Something that literally means nothing to them normally suddenly becomes paramount.

I wonder if that's really all there was to this particular instance of radicalization. The religious equivalent of calling them chicken, goading them into doing something that they wouldn't have otherwise considered doing.

Re: Sounds like a psycopath.

[dbreeze]

Perhaps they could start with correctly handling those threats REPORTED TO THEM by their own agents, other US agencies, foreign gov's, and the public at large? I think that would have stopped ~90% of attacks from the last couple of decades.
The continuing push for mass surveillance is demonstrably counter-productive and stinks of tyranny.

Re: Sounds like a psycopath.

[dbreeze]

No mod points so you get a big fat "BINGO!!!"

Re: Sounds like a psycopath.

[CanadianMacFan]

It's very easy to narrow down the list. You put people in the field but they don't like doing that anymore. First there's a fear of people getting killed. This is also apparent in the military which is why drones and airstrikes are mostly used nowadays. The second reason is a belief that the technology will save us all (by us, the good guys). It will find the bad guys if you just put in enough data and tweak the algorithm a bit more. You need agents out in the field because there are only some kinds of intelligence that you can get by being there. Become friendly with the locals and they will tell you things instead of sending drones overhead. Not every piece of data is captured in a phone conversation or email or text message.

Re: Sounds like a psycopath.

[TapeCutter]

They are mapping social networks, the content of the messages is relatively unimportant, as they have said themselves on a number of occasions it the metadata they want. From a military POV knowing who talks to who is far more useful than knowing what they are saying. Software can reliably extract and document these networks from enormous data sets, it's these networks that the spooks are trying to find.

The FBI used similar (manual) techniques to disrupt civil rights groups in the 60's and 70's. It's really just basic common-sense taken to the extreme, if you are fighting an organised enemy then the first thing you will want is the enemies org chart. As we have seen with Gen. McCarthy, J.E Hoover, the Stasi, etc, the problem begins when the state perceives the citizenry as the enemy.

Re: Sounds like a psycopath.

[tombeard]

By "good, ole police work" I assume you mean setting up ignorant stooges to think they were committing a crime, then arresting them for it. It's not like they arrested any actual terrorists.

Re: Sounds like a psycopath.

[pnutjam]

Don't be so sure.

Re: Sounds like a psycopath.

[arth1]

How do they allow a person with such poor judgement and understanding be the director of the CIA?

Precedents. From my observations, it might even be a job requirement.

Re: Sounds like a psycopath.

[dizzy8578]

and fired by Bill Clinton.

Re: Sounds like a psycopath.

[NIK282000]

Out of a cannon, into the sun!

Re: Sounds like a psycopath.

[sonamchauhan]

"X-files... i want to believe".

Get yourself a healthy dose of skepticism young man!

You cannot believe everything you read on the internet. Here, read this, then google the text to confirm provenance.
--
"Molins said in a press conference that Mostefai had an "S" file on him for years, which means investigators believe he had been "radicalized" in some way, though it was not clear whether he would act on his radicalization."

Re: Sounds like a psycopath.

[TWX]

Ockhams razor isn't a test or a law. It's a rule of thumbs that's most often true, but not always. Also when using this rule of thumb on human being psychology must also apply. Human beings for example have the tendency to form tribe like groups with hierarchies and fall into group think with an us and them mentally. If you use Ockhams razor on most of the strange things humans does group think IS the simplest explanation. Conspiracy most often occurs as a result of group think, that's a known fact derived from a large amount of police investigations into criminal conspiracies. Watergate for example is a schoolbook example of group think.

I know. It's basically stating that when presented with plural, possibly conflicting explanations, the simplest one usually is the correct one.

In this case, a population that nominally has something in-common (even though not really, given actual behavior, but in their minds) that is marginalized finds itself ripe for exploit by those that have practice manipulating this particular population subset.

Admittedly this is anecdotal, but it seems like we tend to focus on what's wrong with our lives, rather than what's right or good or working in our favor. I know I do it and my friends and family and colleagues do it too. When we do that we start building resentment. In my case I know that it's not intellectually honest, I have a beautiful family, a good job, a nice home in a safe area, but I can easily focus in on the negatives and let them rule me. I don't doubt that people that find themselves resented in a population that doesn't know how to relate to them experiences this much more than I do, and for them it doesn't matter if their parents migrated to get them away from something worse than resentment and state welfare with less opportunity for employment, they can easily see their failures while their successes are simply built into the system.

That's why I brought up community. If people feel that they belong they're much less likely to do something horrific against the community because they feel like they're harming themselves. They still may engage in petty crime or personal violence against others, but they're not going to go blow themselves up to take out a huge crowd.

This marginalization approach that keeps coming up in the news would be the exactly wrong approach to dealing with this. Don't marginalize the moderates to drive them toward the extremists, that will perpetuate the problem. Find a way to show the moderates that they do belong, and you'll probably find both less extremists and more desire on the part of the moderates to report the extremists to the authorities before they carry out attacks.

Re: Sounds like a psycopath.

[bonehead]

Starvation is too good for Woolsey.

I vote for lingchi.

Re:Sounds like a psycopath.

[Pseudonym]

Snowden isn't the one who wants people dead.

Re:Sounds like a psycopath.

[peawormsworth]

If you are arguing that encryption may or may not be an offensive tool, then you have already lost the argument. Everyone who actually use encryption knowa it is a defensive tool. Those who want to protect us would support encryption. Those who oppose encryption for any reason desire to make you and your property weak and desire you to be robbed and victimized.

Re: Sounds like a psycopath.

[Sir Holo]

And, sadly, in only 1 case ... good ole police detective work (and the public that called in tips...).

Totally Agreed. Unfortunately, LEOs have been moving away from that, too.

Two Examples: Tips are what solve most crimes. But my local LEOs ignore tips and crime reports. It's the Santa Monica Police Department (SMPD), in CA.

(1) DVD from sec cam showing resident managing to get away from what appeared to be a forcible abduction and ????. She was brave and reported it. Our board culled through the footage to find a very clear video of the whole thing. Put it on a DVD for ease-of-use. When attempting to deliver the DVD, with the CASE NUMBER written on the DVD, the person got the run-around for over an hour. Someone finally took it, but I doubt it was even watched to see if the perp was known to them. Nothing.

(2) Mail package thieves. Again, high-res images of the two perps, each looking up into the sec camera. For one, the name and address was clearly and easily readable. Resident filed a report with SMPD. Later, again, a board member combed through video to provide full-page, time-stamped, CASE NUMBER labeled printouts of the guys in the act of stealing mail, a felony. The reaction of the SMPD deserves its own line here:

. . . . Santa Monica Police Department, "What do you want us to do with that?"

I shit you not. Those were the words.

These are but two examples from a list of many...

Re:Sounds like a psycopath.

[JMJimmy]

I'm arguing that blaming Snowden is an idiotic statement because nothing he did would have compromised their ability to intercept the messages in question. They likely did intercept the messages but failed to flag/escalate them in time to do anything about it or knew about it and chose to do nothing since France was not a very forthcoming intelligence partner prior to the attacks.

Re:Sounds like a psycopath.

[TheRealHocusLocus]

I guess what I'm saying is that within the law enforcement community, Woolsey's views may not be that unusual.

Clinton and Gore are merely political animals and (particularly) gullible individuals who were unable to see past the bullshit when they were briefed by their own intelligence agencies. During the Clinton Administration --- when the fate of non-escrow non-backdoor encryption seemed to be in the balance --- there was a steady stream of leaked stories that claimed that terrorists were using absurdly elaborate methods of communication, on a routine basis (anyone remember the Great Steganography Scare?).

But the real eye-opener for me was Louis Freeh, director of FBI under Clinton, a man I had great respect for, until then. Despite his tenure as judge he seemed incapable of seeing secure encryption as an essential Constitutionally protected right, subject only to due process. He sided with those who wanted to back-door everything.

The article in question, including video

[Anonymous Coward]

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/260817-ex-cia-director-snowden-should-be-hanged-for-paris

Wheres the story

[vivian]

No links to an article - no further information - what's the basis for this guy's statements?

Re:Wheres the story

[riverat1]

Next to the title there's a link (thehill.com)

Re:Wheres the story

[invictusvoyd]

No links to an article - no further information - what's the basis for this guy's statements?

Maybe there is a background music track which is the basis for the story.Like that movie inception .

Re:Wheres the story

[riverat1]

Well, it's kind of dim but I can see it. FF 42.0 on Windows 7.

Re:Wheres the story

[crath]

The CIA guy is just a dumb fuck. He was caught out behaving badly and now he's angry that everyone knows he's a dishonest asshole. Once a dumb fuck, always a dumb fuck.

Re:Wheres the story

[Aighearach]

That's a silly theory. As the CIA head his job was to be a dishonest asshole, and all his peers know and respect that. Having it made public is no different than publishing the names of the soldiers on a special forces mission; they might be mad that they secret was revealed because it was supposed to be a secret, but they're still proud of their work. Same for the CIA. Just because you dislike them or what they do doesn't mean that they don't believe in it.

What a f@cking tool

[mveloso]

Hey DCI Woolsey, maybe we can blame your ass for spending too much time on sigint instead of humint. Then you can go to the gallows first.

Re:What a f@cking tool

[bug1]

You would think someone who climbed so high would be better at using his words. He must be an embarrassment to so many.

Re:What a f@cking tool

[Anonymous Coward]

Being the ex CIA director, he needs a diversion, because if that blood is on anyone's hand it's the CIA's. ISIS is financed and supported by Saudi Arabia, which is America's lapdog in the middle east. It's also the direct result of the war in Iraq. Who delivered the casus belli for that? Weapons of mass destruction? The CIA had proof, right? Every bit of "geo politics" that the CIA has "supported" with their covert operations and propagandist lies has turned into a clusterfuck of epic proportions. So obviously he uses each and every opportunity to divert blame away from the CIA and consequently himself. These people don't believe in truth, only in manipulation.

Re:What a f@cking tool

[Misagon]

The man in question was forced to resign as CIA director in 1995.
However, after that he did not retire but worked as a lobbyist for several right-wing and warmongering groups in Washington.
This statement here, is just another lobbyist action in the same vein.

Most significant of Woolsey's allegiances, is, I would say his membership in the PNAC - a lobbyist group for a US invasion of Iraq, Iran and Syria. Woolsey was one of the signers of a petition to Clinton in the late '90s to invade - a petition with one of the stated objectives to snatch their oil for US interests.
When G.W.Bush became president, several leading members of the PNAC got high-ranking positions in that administration: vice-president Dick Cheney, defence secretary Donald Rumsfeld and Paul Wolwovitz are the most well-known.
When PNAC became the government, the PNAC's agenda became the agenda of the United States.

There is therefore no doubt that this ex-CIA director has a lot of blood on his hands. That whole clusterfuck in that region was caused by the Woolsey-supported invasion to thieve oil followed by gross mismanagement by US officials in Iraq. Hundreds of thousands of civilians, soldiers and civilians have been killed, and millions of people are refugees from and in the region.
How can one even compare Snowden to that?

Re:What a f@cking tool

[tinkerton]

I wonder. There's so many statements that I would consider utterly inane that are commonly accepted. Also some people have this attitude of 'whatever sticks to the wall'. Anyone been accusing Snowden of climate warming yet? Anyone been claiming Snowden is battling climate change deniers?

Re:What a f@cking tool

[HangingChad]

Anyone been accusing Snowden of climate warming yet?

No, but a farmer here had a three-legged calf born on a blue moon. We can legitimately tie that to Snowden making a deal with the devil. We should burn him. If he doesn't burn, he's a witch. If he does burn, then we owe him an apology.

Re:What a f@cking tool

[Antique Geekmeister]

> The CIA had proof, right?

The CIA got pushed, hard, to support excuses to invade Iraq, and was under tremendous pressure from the White House to support a war. Examine the recently released interviews with former CIA analyst Ben Bonk, at http://www.newsweek.com/2015/0...

Re:What a f@cking tool

[angel'o'sphere]

You missed the figurative name:
Snow: a form of frozen water. Usually falling from the sky instead of rain during low enough temperatures.
Den: a dwelling place, everything between a cave and a hut.

Facepalm is hard in this one...

[Anonymous Coward]

And such moron was CIA director?

Re:Facepalm is hard in this one...

[Anonymous Coward]

Not as big a moron (or "f@cking tool") as the idiots who will actually believe what he says. Fear them more.

Re:Facepalm is hard in this one...

[Hognoxious]

I'll be uncharacteristically charitable and suggest that perhaps the silly old cunt has gone senile.

Re:Facepalm is hard in this one...

[donaldm]

I'll be uncharacteristically charitable and suggest that perhaps the silly old cunt has gone senile.

No he is looking for a job in North Korea where I am sure he will fit in quite well. :-)

How?

[mi]

"I think the blood of a lot of these French young people is on his hands"

I may be the sole /.-tter, who is not an admirer of Snowden, but even I do not see, how he can be blamed (however partially) for this particular attack... What could he have told Putin which, when relayed to ISIS, helped them organize the massacre?

Re:How?

[Darinbob]

It's typical law enforcement mentality that makes him think anything goes as long as it can catch a bad guy. The idea that the ends justify the means. What Snowden did was reveal government misconduct, and judges are not a lot more strict and are pulling back on the anything-goes style. In other words, he feels they could have caught the terrorists if only they had been allowed to snoop on everyone. And by everyone this means everyone.

Re:How?

[guestapoo]

Ha ha, that is!

mi (197448) is old (he was from Soviet/Ukraine), so he is smarter than coldfjord.

His above comment seems just perfectly follows the "right" track here, only if no one know his true viewpoint.

http://yro.slashdot.org/commen...

Snowden traded the US for Russia.

Where, an Anonymous pointed out:

Why do you fucks keep repeating this tired and debunked talking point

He is just here to point out how evil Putin has "aided" ISIS as the MSM repeatedly accuse since the October.

Re:How?

[stooo]

>>NSA conducts its completely legal surveillance of foreign communication
NSA does not conduct legal surveillance.
NSA simply ignores the law, and is therefore illegal in itself, and should be abolished.

Re:How?

[inasity_rules]

Dude, I feel like you have waaaay too much time on your hands.

Re:How?

[amiga3D]

The NSA performs a vital function. The problem is that they are supposed to have congressional oversight to keep them under control. Congress has failed miserably to do it's job in this as well as pretty much everything else they are supposed to be doing.

Re:How?

[Tom]

And why would Putin relay anything to ISIS ? Whatever you think of Putin, he is certainly not a friend of islamic terrorism and seems in fact much more serious about fighting them than the US.
(I mean seriously, the by far largest war machine of the planet vs. a few ten thousand barely organized desert nomads and after two years they are still expanding? It's gone beyond the point that can be explained by stupidity and incompetence.)

Re:How?

[gweihir]

Indeed. Its the "let's establish full fascism if that prevents one terrorist attack" mindset. Exceptionally stupid and exceptionally dangerous.

Re:How?

[loonycyborg]

What could he have told Putin which, when relayed to ISIS, helped them organize the massacre?

Whatever it was, it was clearly relayed in a note attached to one of cruise missiles launched at ISIS positions..

Re:How?

[meglon]

Yes, if you think this has only been going on for two years, there is some stupidity involved. AND, if you can't seem to remember the lessons we learned in Vietnam, and that the USSR learned in Afghanistan, well... that takes things to a whole new level of stupidity.

Re:How?

[Anonymous Coward]

Dude, I feel like you have waaaay too much time on your hands.

He really doesn't.
If you read two or more Slashdot articles regarding Snowden you must have noticed the shills. You can't possibly not know about coldfjord.
After you figured that out you typically remember one or more of their retarded posts so it is less than a quick Google search away to find it and post it in their face.

As retarded as their posts are it still works. For anyone who isn't paid to derail discussions there is consensus that Snowden did the right thing. By posting against this consensus the discussion is kept at that level instead of going into the "what are we going to do about it" direction.
It is a very efficient form of damage control/censorship, a single "cyber warrior" can take the same trolly post and push it on multiple forums. If he spends an hour a day a single person can probably keep all the major forums from going in an unwanted direction.

Re:How?

[AmiMoJo]

Maybe we should blame The Wire. They used burner phones without any encryption. Where do you think they got that idea?! It's not like that sort of thing has been standard practice for criminals since mobile phones became widely available.

Re:How?

[phayes]

Outnumbered but not alone in not admiring Snowden.

Re:How?

[mi]

And why would Putin relay anything to ISIS ?

I did not say, he did. But even if he did, I can't think of what it could have been, that would've helped them with this particular attack. See?

Re:How?

[alvieboy]

Perhaps due to US distance from Europe and from Daesh movement can explain your words. Otherwise your words make no sense at all, and can be offensive to Russians who believe they are fighting the bad guys, despite supporting Bashar al-Assad.

Do not mistake Daesh for the Syrian regime. Daesh happens to be most active in Syria, but it is also active in other countries (and some with recent US "enforced" control like Iraq)

Vladimir Putin is not supporting them, he's fighting them on behalf of al-Assad - so we all share a common enemy here.

Now, if you say we shoud not be supporting al-Assad at all, you are right - and I can fully agree with you. But you are not understanding what's at stake here, and what role is played by each party. Stating "What could he have told Putin which, when relayed to ISIS, helped them organize the massacre?" as you did just makes you look ignorant on the eyes of those many who have to fight daesh and secure their borders as best as they can, while offering a safe shelter to those running away from the conflict.

Best.

Disclaimer: I am not Russian, nor am I fond of Russian government.

Re:How?

[alvieboy]

Quoting http://www.bbc.com/news/world-...

>

Re:How?

[alvieboy]

" Col Patrick Ryder, a spokesman for US Central Command, said the Russian air strikes in recent days targeted more IS areas, including the group's oil infrastructure.

But he added that "the majority of Russian air strikes are still against moderate Syrian opposition forces, which is clearly concerning, and those strikes are in support of the Syrian regime" of President Bashar al-Assad. "

Sorry, /. seems to be eating parts of my posts.

Re:How?

[laird]

Militarily ISIS is in terrible shape - shrinking area of control, no industrial base or educational system, and alienating nearly every government on the planet - the Arab governments, in particularly, are directly threatened by ISIS because ISIS wants to overthrow them and establish their own Theocracy.

But that's why they're turning to terrorism. The attacks in Paris and elsewhere are a sign that they're losing. Note that almost all of the attacks are against other Moslem countries, not Paris, the US, etc., which (IMO) is why the Islamic world is largely turned against ISIS.

Re:How?

[guestapoo]

I'm not really understand what standard you use to judge me like that.

I do not frequently post comments.

The comment of mi (197448) I posted above is in the topic I read before.

ColdFjord is too (in)famous that I will not comment about this case.

I spent no time to do those things.

Re:How?

[gweihir]

Well, there is a certain logic to it: If we destroy our freedoms ourselves, then they cannot take them anymore and we remain free! Oh, wait....

Wow

[Greyfox]

He really doesn't sound like the kind of person who should be in charge of the CIA. Oh wait, he's not. Well. I guess that worked out well, then, didn't it?

Re:Wow

[styrotech]

But is has shown that there isn't anything stopping that kind of person from running the CIA.

Only one responsible party

[Rumagent]

And that is the murdering bunch of facist, misogynist, islamic assholes, that uses bronze age stories to justify the slaughter of innocents.

Fuck him for suggesting otherwise!

Re:Only one responsible party

[quenda]

And that is the murdering bunch of facist, misogynist, islamic assholes

Oh I think we can add a few names for contributing - starting with the CIA for fabricating evidence of WMDs that lead to the invasion of Iraq, and a slaughter of civilians on a scale that makes ISIS look like a bunch of schoolboy puppy-stranglers.

The CIA may well be nice guys compared to ISIS, but they have done far more damage.

Re:Only one responsible party

[Rumagent]

Contributing. Sure. To that list I would add just about every civilized country (including my own) for not recognizing and acting on the threat of radical islamic terrorism. It is a disgrace. We should have stomped out these rats long ago - it would have helped if the reasonable muslim countries and communities had been a bit less accomodating of their own religious nutcases.

Re:Only one responsible party

[a whoabot]

The Quran is from Late Antiquity. Some later sources are from the Middle Ages. Some of the sources repeat stories from earlier, perhaps back to the Iron Age, but never as early as the Bronze Age.

Re:Only one responsible party

[randalware]

And Saudi Arabian groups that fund Sunni Freedom Fighters everywhere !

Everyone else calls them terrorists.

Re:Only one responsible party

[Anonymous Coward]

We should have stomped out these rats long ago - it would have helped if the reasonable muslim countries and communities had been a bit less accomodating of their own religious nutcases.

What makes you think there are any reasonable Muslim countries?

Indonesia has a larger Muslim population than any other country in the world. Practicing a moderate and peaceful Islam. Modernized much like Christianity was.

Re:Only one responsible party

[Anonymous Coward]

And that is the murdering bunch of facist, misogynist, islamic assholes, that uses bronze age stories to justify the slaughter of innocents.

It's good you threw in "islamic" here or it would have been hard to tell from the C.I.A. Or is this another "Obama is muslim" rant?

It's so hard to tell these days.

Re:Only one responsible party

[roca]

"slaughter of civilians on a scale that makes ISIS look like a bunch of schoolboy puppy-stranglers" ... almost entirely by competing local militias, not the CIA as you implied.

Re:Only one responsible party

[Anonymous Coward]

That's nice. Maybe France should get rid of its current Muslims and replace them with Indonesians then.

A huge fact like this - the worlds largest Muslim population has a secular government with freedom of religion -- is dismissed as "that's nice". Not very open to see in anything other than black and white here? The answer to your question is that France should get rid of its extremist Muslims the same way US should get rid of KKK and Christians bombing abortion clinics.

Re:Only one responsible party

[SixGunMojo]

Indonesia has a larger Muslim population than any other country in the world. Practicing a moderate and peaceful Islam. Modernized much like Christianity was.

You may wisht to keep up with current events.
https://www.worldwatchmonitor....
http://foreignpolicy.com/2015/...

Re:Only one responsible party

[quenda]

You may wish to keep up with current events.

Indonesia is a very big place, and Aceh province has long been somewhat "special". They have Sharia for a start, unlike the rest of Indonesia.

Re:Only one responsible party

[Xyrus]

The CIA: Fucking the US over with blowback since WW2.

Seriously, most of the crap going on in the Middle East is directly or indirectly related to how much we (and other oil hungry nations) have screwed that region over for the past 60 years in order to secure oil interests. We've overthrown governments, installed bloody puppet dictators, supported questionable (at best) regimes, instigated/supported proxy wars leading to the deaths of millions, so on and so forth.

And yet people are constantly surprised when groups like Al Quaeda and ISIS pop out of the woodwork. Honestly, what do they expect to happen? These aren't some brown human shaped objects who just happen to be in our way. They're people, and they will react like people. Make people feel angry, helpless, and desperate enough and logic goes straight out the window. They want an enemy, and they want to strike out at that enemy. Get a couple of charismatic sociopaths spouting twisted religious garbage in a heavily religious culture and suddenly you have people willing to strap on bombs and blow themselves up.

Worse, the longer this crap goes on the worse it's going to get. Every errant bomb, every leveled city, every child mowed down, and every family blown up just adds more fuel to the fire.

Any hope for peace or ending ISIS and other such groups will require the people of the region to collectively stand up against them and take back their countries and their homes. It can't be forced on them by countries/people they already mistrust or view simply as the lesser of two evils. Unfortunately I don't see this happening anytime soon as even today religious differences act to impede any sort of unity, and our constant meddling isn't helping either.

Re:Only one responsible party

[AK Marc]

Yeah, Crusades to cleanse the world.

Re:Only one responsible party

[Joey Vegetables]

It's even worse than that. It's public record that both al Qaeda and Daesh were created, armed, and supported by the U.S., to fight the Russians and Assad respectively. That's not even in serious dispute. The disputed fact is whether those groups later turned against the U.S. (that is of course the official explanation), or whether they continue to do the bidding of the U.S. government albeit of course in a way it can no longer officially admit or condone. I strongly lean toward the latter conclusion.

Re:Only one responsible party

[Joey Vegetables]

I strongly disagree with Islam and with much of the Quran, but its antiquity, like that of the Old and New Testaments (with which I do agree), is well attested by historical, archaeological and radiological evidence.

Dick Cheney

[Anonymous Coward]

Surely he meant Dick Cheney, not Edward Snowden. An easy mix up.

Snowden a distraction from actual culprits ..

[nickweller]

Exploiting Emotions About Paris to Blame Snowden, Distract from Actual Culprits Who Empowered ISIS

There is NO "War on Terror"
--

PROTHERO: Do you believe this crap, Dascombe? DASCOMBE: It's not our job to believe it, Lewis. Our job is to tell the people –

In other news...

[timrod]

Ex-CIA director attempts to prove relevance by making outrageous statements on current events, fails.

Re:In other news...

[fustakrakich]

Fails? How? He made the front page on Slashdot...

Re:In other news...

[phantomfive]

He would be more convincing if he could even give one example of the surveillance programs stopping a terrorist. Because so far we haven't seen them doing that at all.

If the surveillance programs don't stop terrorist attacks, there's not much use in having them (unless that's not really the reason you want them).

Re:In other news...

[KGIII]

Ugh... So, I used the mighty Google and found this:
http://motherboard.vice.com/bl...

It would appear that 17 out of some 250ish cases have been charged because of surveillance. I was kind of hoping for zero but it is what it is. Now, that's the NSA and not the CIA - I don't know about the CIA. I'd imagine similar results are possible.

Personally, as cold as this sounds, I'd rather they have been able to carry out their attacks then suffer the real attacks on my liberties. Yes, I'm aware that good people might die as a result. I accept that it may be myself or someone I care about. Yes, I'd rather keep my rights than live in fear. I know, I'm a cold bastard. *sighs* Yes, I'm selfish for wanting to keep my rights. I accept that.

Re:In other news...

[goarilla]

Personally, as cold as this sounds, I'd rather they have been able to carry out their attacks then suffer the real attacks on my liberties. Yes, I'm aware that good people might die as a result. I accept that it may be myself or someone I care about. Yes, I'd rather keep my rights than live in fear. I know, I'm a cold bastard. *sighs* Yes, I'm selfish for wanting to keep my rights. I accept that.

I totally agree, I'm from Belgium and I hate this round of emotional policy pushing.
The Humanists fought to get religion out of state, the revolutionaries fought to remove the absolute monarchs.
Our nations had to ward of expansive aggressors with radical forms of governance.
The pot of blood for our free society is huge, it surely can take a couple more.

Re:In other news...

[Hognoxious]

He's part of the pantheon with MojoKid and StartsWithABang. What an honour!

Re:In other news...

[ChromeAeonium]

I don't know, there are quite a lot of people who think Snowden is some crazed anti-American terrorist sympathizer. I would not be surprised at all if a disturbingly large segment of that group bought this bullshit hook line and sinker.

Re:In other news...

[phantomfive]

That just confirms that no terrorist acts were stopped by the spy programs, here's the quote:

just one conviction came out of the government's extra-controversial practice of spying on its own citizens. And that charge, against San Diego cab driver Basaaly Moalin, was for sending money to a terrorist group in Somalia. There was no threat of an actual attack.

Re:In other news...

[KGIII]

I dunno? I really don't. I doubt we'll ever truly know. I do know that I don't like it. I don't like it one bit. Yes, I'm willing to accept the risks and no, I won't cower in fear. I'd like to say that terrorism has done nothing to change my life but it has - but not because of choices that I've made, just crap I've had to deal with. As rough as this sounds, I think it would be better if we all just said, "Yup, bad shit happens. Let's kill 'em and be done with it." We don't need to go on a hunting party, they'll happily take credit for it. We don't need to spy on the populace. It doesn't help in any meaningful fashion and isn't worth it. Even if 10000 terrorists are stopped, no - I am selfish and I want my rights.

Re:In other news...

[Joey Vegetables]

Actually, I'd argue that it would have been safer in the long run to let another attack or two happen and then NOT respond in any way that would further the goals of the attackers. Eventually they would tire of expending significant resources in exchange for nothing, and the attacks would stop, without any further loss of liberty. In the end there would have been less loss of life as well.

Bill Clinton responsible for oral sex!

[rcase5]

Bill Clinton should be hanged for the existence of oral sex. He is single-handedly responsible for the semen of young men on the faces of so many people. Because that makes about as much sense as Woolsey's tortured logic.

Dumbass!

Bodes Really Well for a Fair Trial

[Kunedog]

If anyone had any lingering hope left that Snowden could get a fair trial for the probable charges that aren't simply fabricated out of nowhere, surely this clears it up.

Re:Bodes Really Well for a Fair Trial

[amiga3D]

What difference would a fair trial make? He's guilty. Whether you think it was right or not it was certainly illegal.

Re:Bodes Really Well for a Fair Trial

[wnfJv8eC]

Your comment is ... weird. Snowden is very upfront about his crimes. By any measure a 'fair trial' would certainly give him life in prison or the death penalty for treason, although that's not been handed down since the end of WW2. Don't get me wrong. I think his actions, exposing the abuses of liberty under the Bush and Obama administrations was a good thing, but he did what he did. Lots of congressmen should be charged, tried and hung for their efforts to make the United States into a police state. That 'Patriot Act' was quite the crime against America and give license to the Executive to do all sorts of stupid things. Bush might have been a better president without it. He might have had to think before doing. The tree of liberty needs the blood of patriots from generation to generation to keep it alive. Edward Snowden is certainly a patriot in my eyes.

Re: Bodes Really Well for a Fair Trial

[Anonymous Coward]

Laws are not helpful if they are immoral.

Re: Bodes Really Well for a Fair Trial

[Anonymous Coward]

No. They are running amok, which is even worse. How the FUCK can someone like that become the director of the death squad? Can you please at least do some basic sanity checks first?

Re:Bodes Really Well for a Fair Trial

[infolation]

What difference would a fair trial make? He's guilty.

The rule of law is that anyone accused of an offence is innocent until proven guilty.

Snowden hasn't been put on trial yet. The US Justice Department may have charges they want to put to him, but that doesn't change his legal status.

Re: Bodes Really Well for a Fair Trial

[meglon]

Yes, because Russia's last adventure into the middle east when so well.

Re:Bodes Really Well for a Fair Trial

[Anonymous Coward]

Because the CIA/FBI has NEVER wiretapped a federal judge?

Re:Bodes Really Well for a Fair Trial

[Anonymous Coward]

Whistleblowing laws are irrelevant since Snowden has been accused under the espionage act. He is not allowed to defend his actions, only to deny them which would be absurd. So the outcome of the trial is predetermined: no judge is going to state that he does not believe Snowden and considers him not guilty of doing what he always admitted to have done.

Under the espionage act, there is nothing but a show trial with predetermined "guilty" verdict in stock for Snowden. No judge or jury can reasonably change that. The government has decided that he will not get a fair trial, and the espionage act is the tool for making sure that he won't.

Re:Bodes Really Well for a Fair Trial

[tburkhol]

By any measure a 'fair trial' would certainly give him life in prison or the death penalty for treason

Curiously, parts of the US justice system retain the discretion for sentences to fit the severity of the crime. The high-profile cases of espionage (not treason), Aldrich Ames and Robert Hanssen, secretly delivered information to the Soviet Union, not quite a declared enemy of the time. The US government did not know about these disclosures and could not counter them. They directly resulted in the deaths of US agents. That's about the worst way to do information disclosure, and those dudes are both still alive, though neither is ever likely to see the outside of prison walls.

Pollard, who secretly disclosed information to Israel, one of the closest allies the US has, shocked the public back in the 80s by the unprecedented severity of his sentence: a single life term (from which he was paroled yesterday). A Senate Intelligence staffer claims that passing information to an ally, without intent to harm America normally carries a sentence of 2-4 years.

Re:Bodes Really Well for a Fair Trial

[TheTurtlesMoves]

Thing is, it is just crazy that the US even has the death penalty. It is even crazier for treason? WTF?

Currently the largest and most deadly terrorist organization on the planet is the USA.

Re:Bodes Really Well for a Fair Trial

[Anonymous Coward]

Whether you think it was right or not it was certainly illegal.

That is up for discussion. He was reporting an ongoing crime, that can hardly be illegal.
Some will argue that he could have reported it in another way, but the only way "legally" available was by telling the criminals themselves and hope that they would pass the report on, something that others already had tried and that didn't work out.
Typically it is illegal to kill someone but there are circumstances, like when you are acting in self defense, where you are allowed to break that law.
A fair trial would show that what Snowden did was right and that you can't be punished for reporting a crime. An unfair trial would show something else.

Re: Bodes Really Well for a Fair Trial

[Aighearach]

If it is helpful has absolutely nothing to do with the very technical question of if a person is guilty of violating an existing criminal statute.

It seems a lot of people become so blinded by disliking what the law is that they are no longer capable of remembering what it is. How do they still know they don't like it, if they can't even use its extant state in their analysis?

A fair trial and he would be found guilty, because he has admitted what he did in public. There is basically no factual difference between his account and the governments regarding what actions he took. The assertion that a 'fair' trial could end other than in a guilty verdict is silly.

It is perfectly reasonable to say that you don't believe he should be charged because [reasons]. But it is not obvious that allowing government workers to give away official secrets without penalty is some sort of "moral" objective. How is a law banning espionage by government employees inherently immoral? It seems an impossibly high hurdle to categorically show the espionage act to be immoral. That remains true even if you don't believe it should be applied in some cases.

I've heard a lot of people call for a pardon, for example. That seems a more reasonable basis of moral argument.

Anyway on a random jury only 2 or 3 people are going to want him hanged.

Re: Bodes Really Well for a Fair Trial

[AmiMoJo]

He could use the defence of defending his country from threats foreign and domestic. I don't know if he swore to that and I'm no expert on US law, but isn't revealing criminal activity that threatens the nation and its people a defence?

Re: Bodes Really Well for a Fair Trial

[bernywork]

Since when was Afghanistan not in the middle east?

EVERYONE! Update your maps, an Anonymous Coward thinks Afghanistan isn't in the middle east.

A quick Google will show you that the middle east also includes the 'stans, Egypt and Libya which are otherwise North Africa.

Re:Bodes Really Well for a Fair Trial

[silas_moeckel]

Oh a jury can change that, the judge will do his best to see they dont and declare a mistrial if they do.

Re: Bodes Really Well for a Fair Trial

[KGIII]

By virtue of getting lucky in the game of life, I've got a few dollars. As such, I've been told that I'm a 1%er, evil, a corporatist, part of the ruling elite, and responsible for the deaths of thousands. I've been called a Democrat, a Republican, a baby-killer, and an all-around monster.

So, I hereby claim my title as the ruling elite. I declare such laws immoral and pardon Snowden and all other whistle-blowers alike. I declare his actions moral, legal, and absolve him of any wrong-doing.

I mean, if I gotta send a few bucks somebody's way - I'll do that. Just lemme know who to give a 'campaign donation' and I'll go ahead and take care of that but, seriously, when I got that first tax bill (and it was a goodly sum, lemme tell ya) it didn't come with a secret decoder ring, a laminated card, nor a coronation. I've not once been invited to a back-room deal, sipped scotch while smoking fine cigars in front a a mahogany desk in a walnut paneled room, while some old white guy gave me a lecture about the peons.

But I mean, yeah, if I gotta sit through that lecture and send a few bucks to the right political parties then I'm game. I just haven't found a hidden cabal of operators pulling politician's puppet strings (at least not as a general rule). 'Cause, trust me, I'd like some laws changed. The first one's gonna be about who is and who isn't allowed on the internet, at large, but Snowden's on the list.

He'd probably be right up near the top too. He'd probably be even higher than the law that allows me to strip naked on the White House lawn during press conferences. I'd pay extra for that law. Then, I'd buy a law that lets me drive as fast as I want, with no consequences, and maybe be allowed to do it in an Indy car - while naked, except for a Star Wars helmet, and snorting meth.

But no, he's certainly on the list of the moral people but I just can't seem to buy his freedom - I do donate to ACLU and EFF but that's not been as productive as I'd like.

Re: Bodes Really Well for a Fair Trial

[KGIII]

He was a sub-contractor as I recall. As such, he'd probably not have taken that oath. He probably would be, technically, guilty of a few crimes. However, that's what jury nullification is for. There's some secrets acts and probably a case to be made for being a traitor (albeit a weak case - but one the State could try) but, again, that's what jury nullification is for.

Jury nullification relies on a sympathetic and intelligence populace. Which, by all accounts, means's he's fucked. 'Tis a pity, too.

Re: Bodes Really Well for a Fair Trial

[Antique Geekmeister]

Afghanistan is considered part of the Middle East by many, and has strong language and cultural ties with the rest of the Muslim cultures of the Middle East. It's a key land route between the Middle East and Asia, which is one reason it's been so valuable and so often invaded by other nations.

And yes, Russia's invasion was marked by disaster, as was the more recent US invasion, and the previous British invasion.

Re:Bodes Really Well for a Fair Trial

[Antique Geekmeister]

The judge can "change that" too. Reporting criminal activity by the government is a pretty good defense.

Re:Bodes Really Well for a Fair Trial

[Cytotoxic]

The measure of the crime isn't "did he disclose this information". There are legitimate defenses to the charges, including the illegality of the activities he was exposing. There is also the possibility of jury nullification, which is one of the reasons that we have trial by jury in the first place.

Not that it isn't a steep road. He disclosed way more than just the illegal stuff, so he'd have a hard time making that stick as a blanket protection. But there is an argument to be made.

Re: Bodes Really Well for a Fair Trial

[rmdingler]

...but isn't revealing criminal activity that threatens the nation and its people a defence?

Maybe so, but the stakes for the government are so high in this, it is difficult to imagine he would get a fair hearing. The government would close the doors on the trial to "protect State Secrets", and he might not even get a civilian trial... think military tribunal.

If Snowden were exonerated for a leak of this magnitude, right or wrong, the disincentive to keep current secrecy employees bound by their oaths would render all the little acronym organizations impotent.

Re: Bodes Really Well for a Fair Trial

[Sarten-X]

Probably not.

Most US laws that define a particular behavior as a "crime" also define particular circumstances in which the behavior is an exception to the rule. A defense in a trial is really just arguing to a judge that the exception applies to your particular case, rather than the general rule, or arguing to a jury that your circumstances don't fit the exact detail of the criminal statute. Despite common perception, the intent of a trial is not to decide whether some action should be a crime, but to determine whether the crime has already occurred.

Unfortunately for Mr. Snowden's fans, he's already said openly to the world that he did exactly what the law forbids. He intentionally exceeded his authority to collect classified information, and released it to people who weren't authorized to have it. As far as I understand the relevant laws, there are no exceptions to that crime.

If you support Snowden and want him to return to his normal life without punishment for whatever crimes he's committed, your best hope is probably that he gets a very sympathetic judge, who would accept an argument that his noble intent is superior to the written laws governing the handling of classified material. That's pretty literally "legislating from the bench", and it would establish a very broad defense for future treason.

Perhaps more reasonable, though less likely in my opinion, is the pursuit of a pardon, as Aighearach noted. The President's office would have to be convinced that Snowden's actions were not deserving of punishment, regardless of what the law or courts say. Snowden would still be a convicted felon, but most of the punishment would be removed. However, a pardon would have to be pursued after a conviction, and I expect that Snowden would rather be a martyr in exile than face a proper American trial.

Re:Bodes Really Well for a Fair Trial

[GuB-42]

Whistleblower protection doesn't allow disclosure of classified information. For this reason, whistleblowers in the intelligence community have official channels where they can report classified information. However, Snowden didn't follow the official channels, so no protection for him.
Well maybe the law will create some ridiculous situation where he may spend many years in prison for disclosing classified information but because of the whistleblower protection, he gets to keep his last month's wage.

Re:Bodes Really Well for a Fair Trial

[Legal.Troll]

No, actually the rule of law in the U.S. is that you're not declared guilty by the government and thrown in jail until proven guilty. Fleeing prosecution so you can't be put on trial doesn't mean you're not guilty, it just means you won't be punished for it by civil authorities. Your comment is so obtuse and devoid of analytical skill, it's painful.

Re:Bodes Really Well for a Fair Trial

[caseih]

It makes a huge difference. Nearly all whistle blowers are violating the law in a technical sense to reveal greater breaches of the law by others who are powerful. A fair trial means that all the nuances and subtleties of the crime are made known and an appropriate sentence passed, based on all the factors (including the fact that the NSA violated the law and the constitution), not just technical guilt. This is the kind of justice that the US has prided herself on for generations. And the lack of fear of going after powerful (usually) men in high places for their own crimes revealed. This ex-CIA man has confirmed what we've known for years. There will be no such fair trial for Snowden. His guilt has been known for years, but apparently the full sentence has been known already too. This is morally wrong. And clearly those that violated the constitution and acted in an unlawful fashion (IE crimes) against the American people have no intention of being responsible for their actions either in any courts of law.

Re:Bodes Really Well for a Fair Trial

[jblues]

Ames was a brazen double agent who enjoyed an overt increase in standard of living. He had a large house paid for in cash, a fine car and dressed in expensive tailor made clothes. And, his monthly credit card minimum payment was more than his monthly salary. Funnily enough, when he was finally caught years later, there was a "huge uproar" in Congress when the very same James Woolsey decided that no one in the CIA would be dismissed or demoted at the agency. He said:

"Some have clamored for heads to roll in order that we could say that heads have rolled. Sorry, that's not my way."

Re: Bodes Really Well for a Fair Trial

[angel'o'sphere]

'Middle East' is not an general defined geographical region.

If you count Lybia and Egypt to the middle east, than you must be very far away. From an european standpoint they are south, not east. Geographically they are both in Africa, not in Asia nor minor Asia.

From a European standpoint (and yes, that is semi official) the middle east is: Iran, India, Myanmar, 'South asia' which only contain Afganistan and Parkistan as 'stans and not the other ones (about you likely never heard and are in the 'far east'), and no: 'Kurdistan is not belonging to the 'middle east' either.

Perhaps, you should rethink your advice about maps?

Arabica, Israel, Iraq are not 'middle east', they are 'close east' or 'minor asia' or 'front orient', depending how you want to express that in english.

Lebanon and Israel, btw. belong to another region called Levente, nevertheless, that is near east/close east, not middle east.

Re: Bodes Really Well for a Fair Trial

[currently_awake]

A military trial should only be an option if he's a soldier, or captured by the military during a war. Snowden should be given a civilian trial.

Re: Bodes Really Well for a Fair Trial

[thegarbz]

But the morality of law does not decide on how a law is enforced. There are other legal avenues for that none of which have come to pass yet.

Re: Bodes Really Well for a Fair Trial

[careysub]

Perhaps more reasonable, though less likely in my opinion, is the pursuit of a pardon, as Aighearach noted. The President's office would have to be convinced that Snowden's actions were not deserving of punishment, regardless of what the law or courts say. Snowden would still be a convicted felon, but most of the punishment would be removed. However, a pardon would have to be pursued after a conviction, and I expect that Snowden would rather be a martyr in exile than face a proper American trial.

President Ford pardoned former President Nixon for all offenses, despite Nixon never having been formally actually charged with a crime, much less convicted.

Your statement that "a pardon would have to be pursued after a conviction" has the sound of plausibility (aka "truthiness") but clearly is not true.

Re: Bodes Really Well for a Fair Trial

[Aighearach]

He could use the defence of defending his country from threats foreign and domestic. I don't know if he swore to that and I'm no expert on US law, but isn't revealing criminal activity that threatens the nation and its people a defence?

No, that is just what they call his "motive" for the crime, not a "defense." If his motive was just, and he broke the law anyways, then expect his lawyer to heavily discuss the value of his motive... during sentencing, perhaps requesting a short sentence that is heavy on probation instead of prison time.

Generally a legal "defense" is a thing that if you can prove it, then you're not guilty. Proving your motive makes it easier for the prosecution to show guilt, because motive is one of the required elements of a criminal accusation.

If he was legally tasked with the defense of the country, then he might find a defense there in that he had to balance that duty against the word of the law when they were in conflict. But that isn't the situation. He's wasn't in charge of even determining what the national threats are. We have a system for who does that, and it is the President and the people he directly appoints who make those types of determinations. Those are the only people for whom that would have any chance of being a defense

Re: Bodes Really Well for a Fair Trial

[Aighearach]

Everything I've read on the subject says that it is enough if there is a clear accusation that is being pardoned, but a blanket pardon will only cover things already known or explicitly listed. So in this case, there would be no problem with pardoning him. Note that it isn't a formal legal accusation that I'm talking about here, it is enough if there is public speculation about a particular crime.

Ford pardoning Nixon in that way remains somewhat controversial legally as to what actually was pardoned. Clearly the crimes related to the Watergate scandal were pardoned. Would some other crime unveiled after the pardon have been pardoned? Probably not, unless they could show it was known to the government while the pardon was being considered. Then it would. Silly stuff perhaps. It had more potential to matter in Nixon's case than in Snowden's. If they focus on an action, they can certainly phrase a pardon as covering all crimes related to [specific action at specific time].

They could also, as a sort of compromise, wait until his conviction and then commute the sentence. That can be done as soon as there is a conviction, without even waiting for the sentence, depending on if they want to hold it over the heads of others as a deterrent.

Re:Bodes Really Well for a Fair Trial

[cfalcon]

No, but he's guilty though. Sure, the NEWS can't say that, but the only way he could be found innocent is jury nullification.

You can be pedantic, and of the HOST of crimes they will charge him with, some will be bullshit, but this one:

http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/us...

He is UNAMBIGUOUSLY guilty of.

I'm sure if they could get their hands on him, they would charge him with more, and much of that is debatable, but we are talking about a man who is famous because he disclosed classified information while he had an active clearance, and doing exactly that is against the law. There's no possible way for Snowden to be materially innocent of disclosing classified information, again, barring jury nullification or something really odd.

Re: Bodes Really Well for a Fair Trial

[Sarten-X]

However, that's what jury nullification is for.

No, it isn't.

There's some secrets acts and probably a case to be made for being a traitor (albeit a weak case - but one the State could try)

Those are exactly the laws that Snowden has openly admitted to breaking. It's a pretty strong case by all (informed) accounts.

Jury nullification relies on a sympathetic and intelligence populace.

Jury nullification of law relies on a population that thinks situational ethics are a better justice system than rule of law. In essence, it is throwing out the entire legal basis of a fair trial in favor of mob justice for a celebrity - for better or for worse.

Re: Bodes Really Well for a Fair Trial

[ShooterNeo]

I think it also depends on what you mean by a "few bucks", and how you got it.

1. Did you invent some new idea and sell it for millions or tens of millions of dollars, after slaving away on it 16 hours a day for years? Yeah, ok, you deserve it.

2. Did you brown-nose your way to the top of a major corporation, exploiting your gender/racial diversity or good ole boy connections to get promotions you didn't deserve. Then, after taking over, you run a nearly century old company into the ground. You negotiate pay packages worth tens of millions of dollars a year. When they fire you, you collect another 50 mil on the way out.

The problem is that there seems to be an awful lot of #2 going on. There just aren't that many company founders getting rich after making genius inventions, and a whole lot of rich, connected people getting obscenely richer still.

Re:Bodes Really Well for a Fair Trial

[ShooterNeo]

Mandatory minimum sentencing and sentencing "guidelines" that make it clear he "deserves" decades in prison mean otherwise.

Those guidelines don't have anything about "he reported on crimes committed by his employer".

Re: Bodes Really Well for a Fair Trial

[KGIII]

None of #2 and all of #1. I even had to enlist to get GI Bill funds that enabled me to further my education. To be perfectly honest, I did work hard but no harder than you do - maybe longer days. I was just damned lucky. I've always had good luck. (For lack of better terms. It's also subjective, I tend to look at things in a positive light.)

Re:Bodes Really Well for a Fair Trial

[Krishnoid]

"Some have clamored for heads to roll in order that we could say that heads have rolled. Sorry, that's not my way."

Ohhh -- so that's why he prefers hanging instead.

Re: Bodes Really Well for a Fair Trial

[ShooterNeo]

See, the part that truly makes you decent about this is you recognize that luck played a roll. Certain uber-rich have been surrounded by bootlickers for so long that they genuinely believe that THEY, individually, got their fortune 100% through their own efforts, with no luck, and thus they don't have to lift a finger to support the society they live in that made this possible.

  And by "support society", I don't mean give tens of thousands of bucks to welfare queens so they can make more babies. I think the rich should pay enough taxes so the government doesn't have to borrow money, and can maintain the productive stuff - the roads, etc - in top tier condition. I think certain wealthy people are basically "looting" America, by causing America to rack up a ton of debt and not even maintain its own infrastructure, in return for lower taxes.

Now, of course, as you point out in your own post - and I fully believe you - there's no secret club where the rich people coordinate their looting of America. It's more than each wealthy person, seeking their own interests, tends to support politicians who say what they want to hear - such as "we don't need to raise taxes on the rich, the current progressive tax system already charges them more (it doesn't if you factor other taxes than income), give the rich people more money and it will "trickle down", etc.

The real problem is that such ridiculous lies become official government policy because democracy is kind of flawed and ignorance can rule the day.

Re: Bodes Really Well for a Fair Trial

[KGIII]

The vast majority of my income, at least at the start, came from municipalities. I, quite literally, am where I am because of society. I'm morally obligated to return the favor, and I do. This might be why I'm not invited to the cabal meetings. ;-)

Re:Bodes Really Well for a Fair Trial

[BetterSense]

Jury nullification?

Re: Bodes Really Well for a Fair Trial

[sanosuke001]

He was a sub-contractor as I recall. As such, he'd probably not have taken that oath...

Except to get clearance (which he had) you need to agree to keep what you learn secret; he did so. Even as a contractor.

Re: Bodes Really Well for a Fair Trial

[KGIII]

True but I don't think that means he took the oath that the OP was referencing. I think that means he signs a basic agreement, like an NDA.

Re: Bodes Really Well for a Fair Trial

[bernywork]

*citation please

Re: Bodes Really Well for a Fair Trial

[angel'o'sphere]

Read wikipedia or google for middle east.
It is not my job to educate you :D Everything relevant was in my post. If you don't believe me because you consider me not qualified, that is your problem.

Re: Bodes Really Well for a Fair Trial

[Grishnakh]

You must be a European. Here in the US, "middle east" generally refers to Israel/Palestine, Syria, Lebanon, most of Turkey, Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia and friends, and also Egypt (thought it's technically mostly in Africa). Afghanistan is kinda borderline. Pakistan and India are not middle east, nor anything east of these which is either "far east" (or just plain "China"), or "southeast Asia" (Vietnam, Laos, Thailand, etc.).

Egypt mainly gets grouped in because it's so entwined into the politics in that region (it was part of the 6-day war on Israel, it shares a border with Israel/Gaza, part of it is on the minor Asian side). The countries west of Egypt are not middle east, they're "north Africa".

Anyway, that's how the term seems to be used here in America. It's not a strictly defined term at all, and generally means that region of the world since it's such a political hotspot that our military and government are continually involved in.

Re:Bodes Really Well for a Fair Trial

[wkwilley2]

The holocaust was legal back in the 1930's, that doesn't make it right though does it?

Re: Bodes Really Well for a Fair Trial

[angel'o'sphere]

That is why I said: "middle east is not a defined term".

Our parent, to who I responded, was of the opinion that "his parent" was an idiot as he seemed not to know what "middl east" is.

Yes, I more or less quoted the german definition from wikipedia, and I bet the french one will be different.

Point is: we define it geographically, and the americans more or less by political reasoning ... and more interesting: if the regions/countries you mention are "middle east", what is then "near east" ... the most westerly part of "the east"? Obviously there is no "east" left ... left of the middle east. So calling those areas "middle east" makes no sense, not even from the point of view of the USA (world map, not political).

However our parent explicitly mentioned: "did you ever look on a map" ;D So I was urged to answer, hehe.

Re: Bodes Really Well for a Fair Trial

[Grishnakh]

That is why I said: "middle east is not a defined term".

Sure it is, in English at least. English is defined by popular usage, so how people use it IS the definition. What I gave you was my perception (as an American) of how the term is used in this country.

You can also see what Wikipedia has to say about it here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

If you look at the map, you'll see that it pretty much matches up exactly with what I said before. Egypt in, Afghanistan out.

Point is: we define it geographically, and the americans more or less by political reasoning

However Americans have collectively come to use the term "middle east" to mean that group of countries, it IS correct, by definition.

if the regions/countries you mention are "middle east", what is then "near east"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...

Simple: there is no "near east" any more. No one really uses that term, so it's archaic. We use the term "middle east" now. Decades ago, we used to use the term "near east" to describe the Ottoman Empire's possessions in Asia. There might be some academics who still use the term for something, but that's jargon and not popular usage.

So calling those areas "middle east" makes no sense

It doesn't matter what "makes sense" to you. The only thing that matters is how a term is used in English, if you're communicating with an English speaker. However it's used popularly IS the correct usage. If English speakers worldwide all decided tomorrow to start calling that region "Vulcan", then *that* would be the correct term for the region. Even better, if all English speakers suddenly decided to call that region "Europe", and to call what's now Europe "the Middle East", then *those* would be the correct terms.

So calling those areas "middle east" makes no sense, not even from the point of view of the USA (world map, not political).

Language isn't defined by geographers, it's defined by popular usage. Every language is borne out of the culture of its speakers, and reflects upon their culture and their worldview to a huge extent. This term has obviously come about because of the American worldview and its involvement in geopolitics. The term may not be what geographers would prefer, but there's a lot more to the world than strict geography, and the various people who have to deal with the people and cultures in that region are worried about a lot of things other than some lines on a map, or which piece of land technically sits on which continent or which tectonic plate.

Re: Bodes Really Well for a Fair Trial

[angel'o'sphere]

It is not a defined term in english either.
As the "english" definition is the "british" one which agrees with my definition.
And "my definition" is not a defined term either, I more or less copied and translated from wikipedia.

I suggest you simply read up the various definitions of "middle east" in different languages.

Again, you seem not to grasp the simplest things:
a) Egypt is not even in the east. So it can not be in the "middle east".
b) the east starts west of Egypt, and north of Egypt with Israel, Syria, Turkey

It is plain simple, middle east is a region in the "middle of the east", so divide the east into three stripes and call the left one "near east", the middle one "middle east" and the right one "far east" ... or what ever you want.

Anyway: Egypt and Lybia are not even in the left stripe ... how can they be in the middle east, unless -- and that is the point -- the american definition of "middle east" is a purely political for newspaper use only definition.

Please, care to explain, what the "near east" is, if in your definition Egypt belongs to the "middle east"? Water?

So, grasp it. I don't care how you call it, But I care that you or a parent declared poster being dumb for "not knowing what middle east is" when that term actually is not defined.

Language isn't defined by geographers, it's defined by popular usage.
Exactly. And that usage is completely different in my country versus the USA, the USA are a minority calling areas "middle east" which can not be in the "middle" of a thing where they actually don't belong to.

See: you have a cake on the table and left of the table is a plate. You call the plate in the middle of the cake, but it is not even on, under or at the cake. Can't be part of the cake, so it definitely is not "middle of the cake".

Funnily, the german wikipedia article about the middle east starts with: "the term 'middle east' is not well defined". Did you ever wonder why so many english wikipedia articles are so badly written? Likely not. "Mittlerer Osten ist ein geographisch nicht eindeutig festgelegter Begriff.[1] Im Deutschen bezeichnet er die südlichen Gebiete"

Now lets see to the french: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/..., they e.g. include Egypt again. But in the later explanation explain why that is "wrong" ...

"Le qualificatif de  Moyen  a entraîné certaines confusions au-delà du problÃme actuel de définition de l'espace situé entre le monde indien et l'Europe. Avant la PremiÃre Guerre mondiale, Near East (traduit approximativement par  Proche-Orient Â, mais avec un sens différent de celui actuel) était utilisé en anglais pour parler des Balkans et de l'Empire ottoman, tandis que le terme Middle East ( Moyen-Orient Â) faisait référence à l'Iran, l'Afghanistan, le Turkménistan et le Caucase. En revanche, Far East (traduit à peu prÃs par  ExtrÃme-Orient Â) faisait référence aux pays de l'Asie de l'Est, à la Chine, au Japon, à la Corée, à TaÃwan, etc."

So: use of language varies from country to country ... so literally translating "middle east" to "mittlerer Osten" does not work at all, e.g. And the USA don't define, how english is used. Most of the planet, contrary to your believe, prefers the queens english, even in China or Japan, people learn british english, not the american version which is only spoken by roughly 320million, if at all.

So, nitpicking aside. People aren't dumb because they don't know your definition of a certain term. Or our parents definition if it was not you who started that topic.

P.S. sorry for the bad rendering of the french text ... emphasizes are mine ofc.

Re: Bodes Really Well for a Fair Trial

[Grishnakh]

Look, you're wrong and you're full of shit. I even gave you a reference to the Wikipedia article which points out that Egypt IS in the middle east. If you think you know better than a scholarly article on the subject, then I don't give a shit what you think, you probably think the moon landings were a hoax too.

Sick

[Anonymous Coward]

Everything said in that video made me sick to my stomach. The guy is clearly senile. CNN should be ashamed of what they showed the world.

I don't think he likes Snowden.

[argee]

Some people are so full of hate.

Speaking of punishments...

[Anonymous Coward]

Jonathon Pollard is being released after serving 30 years for spying on the US for Israel--one of our closest and most stalwart allies.

What should be the penalty for former CIA directors who illegally spied on the US citizens? (Now that we know about it...because of Snowden.)

Snowden or someone else?

[Hairy1]

The suggestion that Snowden, in revealing the illegal practises of the US Government is somehow responsible for ISIS carrying out the Paris attack is patently ludicrous.

But perhaps those making the accusations are trying to deflect their own responsibility? ISIS were established, at least originally, by Sunni Muslims from Iraq who had been alienated and excluded from the political process in Iraq. Without the Iraqi invasion ISIS would not exist. Didn't stop there either. In the attempt to supply the Syrian Free Army, which was in fact a number of groups including those who would become ISIS, with weapons and aid the Americans had not only given them fertile ground to harvest, but given them the tractors and machines to till the soil.

And now the Americans complain that Putin is fighting the enemy of Assad; which is ISIS. ISIS for their part took the opportunity to take poorly defended US military equipment in Northern Iraq. Those fighting ISIS in Northern Iraq, the Kurds, have been given little support, and continue to be attacked by US ally Turkey. So how, given the facts on the ground, can the US in all seriousness try to condemn others for assisting ISIS, when without the US they would not exist?

I am not saying the US has made ISIS do what they have. The reprehensible attacks across the world are the behaviours of morally vapid thugs who are totally responsible for their actions. Make no mistake that I have no sympathy for them. But the US cannot wash its hands of the part it has played, once again, in enabling this kind of tyrannical villainy.

Re:Snowden or someone else?

[Prune]

So the West should give more support to the Kurds so they can continue to massacre Christian minorities in Syria? Do some research. The Kurds are as bad as anyone else in that region.

Someone should hang him

[future assassin]

by the balls. Then we can have a public stoning. I'll be bring the holy grenade.

Misplaced blame?

[fahrbot-bot]

Wasn't it CIA meddling that instigated the various messes around the planet, including Afghanistan and Iran in the first place? Ultimately, it seems the CIA has the more blood on its hands than Snowden ever could - presuming Woolsey had a valid point and wasn't, apparently, a bat-shit crazy socio/psycho-path with a really short and/or selective memory.

Who cares?

[aralin]

Why are we discussing the accusations thrown about by war criminals? Every director of CIA since at least Nixon's presidency has been responsible for war crimes. So why are we still listening to them? After all it is the CIA who is directly arming and training people who then immediately deflect to ISIS. That sounds like much more direct responsibility than anything Snowden might have done.

Re:Who cares?

[beastofburdon]

Every director of CIA has been responsible for war crimes.

Fixed that for you.

Is this a joke?

[CustomSolvers2]

I quote from the video "...they knew how to use encrypted communications because of the E. Snowden revelations..."!!

It is not about defending/attacking Snowden or what he did. It is not even about a person working for a governmental agency publically and arbitrarily blaming someone for the Paris attacks by using a so strong language.

For me, the main problem here is that extremely important actions, like properly understanding/analysing/making decisions, are performed by clueless individuals. A person delivering the aforementioned nonsense should be immediately fired. People coming to so nonsensical conclusions are certainly responsible for lots of bad things.

Re:Is this a joke?

[dcollins117]

He knows full well what he's spewing is horseshit. He's sowing propaganda, nothing more. That's his job. Our job is to ignore him.

Re:Is this a joke?

[CustomSolvers2]

Even If this is the case, it shouldn't be acceptable either. This kind of statements coming from an organisation linked to the government (to national security; precisely assumed to have a good enough understanding about certain issues and to be a trustworthy source of information) shouldn't ever be tolerated or excused.

Re:Is this a joke?

[beastofburdon]

Well, the majority of the CIA's budget is supposedly spent on misinformation. I seriously doubt that anyone who makes it to the position of director is capable of uttering a true statement.

Fuck the intelligence agencies, it is their fault

[dunkelfalke]

All of the terrorists involved were known. It was known that they have planned something and these bloody idiots still have failed to prevent the terrorist strikes. And now they blame it on Snowden of all people? Why don't they just do the job properly they are paid to do?

So, is lying to congress also treason?

[Anonymous Coward]

If Snowden is to be punished so brutally for revealing crimes then what is in store for Woolsey for committing them?

What a delusional ass!

[Chas]

I know, lots of people don't like what Snowden did. And they disagree with the view that, even though he was exposing wrongdoing by our government AGAINST ALLIES AND CITIZENS, he "hurt" America by laying bare intel assets and methodologies.

Okay. I can live with that. I think it's narrow-minded and stupid myself. But I can live with people thinking that.

But trying to lay blame at Snowden's door for the Paris attacks?

Gimme a fucking break. That's just being an asshole and mouthing a party line designed to further destroy the rights and privileges of the US citizen, allowing intel agencies carte blanche for whatever means and methods they wish to use, on whoever they wish to use it on. Regardless of the legality or morality.

Re:What a delusional ass!

[hey!]

Politics runs on emotion, not critical thinking. This is a pitch, and it will likely accomplish its purpose of scaring/radicalizing people.

Re:What a delusional ass!

[gzuckier]

I know, lots of people don't like what Snowden did. And they disagree with the view that, even though he was exposing wrongdoing by our government AGAINST ALLIES AND CITIZENS, he "hurt" America by laying bare intel assets and methodologies.

Okay. I can live with that. I think it's narrow-minded and stupid myself. But I can live with people thinking that.

But trying to lay blame at Snowden's door for the Paris attacks?

Gimme a fucking break. That's just being an asshole and mouthing a party line designed to further destroy the rights and privileges of the US citizen, allowing intel agencies carte blanche for whatever means and methods they wish to use, on whoever they wish to use it on. Regardless of the legality or morality.

well,, it was snowden or pollard. flipped a coin.

A good lesson

[geogob]

And this is exactly why the judicial system is based on the judgment of judges, and not ex-cia directors.

buck passing.

[bloodhawk]

As someone that helped create the mess in the Middle east I think Mr Woolsey the blood is actually on YOUR hands. I suspect he is having trouble sleeping and trying to pass the blame might help him with that.

Hyperbole much?

[Swoopy]

What a moron. Investigate this person, please?

Not a psychopath...

[Etherwalk]

Not a psychopath, just a propagandist. The idea is pretty simple: connect whistleblowing of illegal government surveillance to Paris terrorist attacks in order to assist your political positions on (1) being anti-encryption, (2) being pro-surveillance, and (3) being anti-whistleblower. He's blatantly violating his oath to defend the Constitution but is doing that because his (former) job is a lot harder if he has to follow the Constitution--and all the people who died in France, the CIA didn't see it coming, maybe because of Snowden.

Of course, if the NSA hadn't been collecting massive illegal surveillance of *Americans*, Snowden probably wouldn't have happened. While Snowden should be held to account for leaking classified information, the biggest blame by far goes to the NSA and the Senate Intelligence Committee for failure to oversee it properly.

Majority:
        Richard Burr, North Carolina, Chair
        Jim Risch, Idaho
        Dan Coats, Indiana
        Marco Rubio, Florida
        Susan Collins, Maine
        Roy Blunt, Missouri
        James Lankford, Oklahoma
        Tom Cotton, Arkansas

Minority:
        Dianne Feinstein, California, Vice Chair
        Ron Wyden, Oregon
        Barbara Mikulski, Maryland
        Mark Warner, Virginia
        Martin Heinrich, New Mexico
        Angus King, Maine[9]
        Mazie Hirono, Hawaii

Ex officio:
        John McCain, Arizona
        Mitch McConnell, Kentucky
        Jack Reed, Rhode Island
        Harry Reid, Nevada

Re:Not a psychopath...

[SwashbucklingCowboy]

If the Snowden revelations had been confined to "illegal government surveillance" I would agree, but it went far, far beyond that.

Re:Not a psychopath...

[KGIII]

I can't speak about the rest but I don't think King (I) from Maine was even on the committee when Snowden's leaks came about. He's a moron (and probably would have been to blame) but probably isn't to blame for this one particular thing. He's got lots of reasons to hate him but that's not really one of them. I did not check the dates of the rest of them.

Re:Not a psychopath...

[SwashbucklingCowboy]

Yeah, really. It went into how we spy on other governments - which is not illegal.

Re:Not a psychopath...

[laird]

True, so far he's revealed a wide range of illegal activities, breaking both US and international law, as well as extensive lying to the public (also arguably illegal) and to Congress (clearly illegal). Revealing illegal government activity is quite embarrassing to the US government, so of course they're trying to punish him. Of course, they might also want to think about stopping doing illegal things that are damaging to the country when they're revealed.

Re:Not a psychopath...

[Etherwalk]

This is the current membership; they are responsible for failing to provide effective oversight of the current surveillance problem; there is some overlap now to then but it's not 100%.

Re:Not a psychopath...

[MacDork]

Ron Wyden, Oregon

Just curious... How do you blame him for failing to do a job when he was being told bald faced lies? This was the impetus for Snowden's whistle blowing.

Re:Not a psychopath...

[KGIII]

Oh, take him out back and shoot him for all I care. He's a horrific person. However, I don't think he's responsible for anything that Snowden leaked. I reread your post and it still reads the same so I don't think I'm missing anything.

Re:Not a psychopath...

[SwashbucklingCowboy]

And he revealed very legal spying techniques. You forgot to mention that.

not like the CIA will accept that it's their fault

[dltaylor]

70 years of incredibly stupid foreign blunders have left a large part of the world with utterly justifiable anger at the United States, and any and all allies. It's the CIA who should be hanged as traitors, if anyone.

Re: Except

[pjabardo]

Did you miss the "Friends" part?

Blood on HIS hands?

[taylorius]

The head of the CIA claiming someone else has blood on their hands. What next, the head of Goldman Sachs accusing someone of being a bit greedy?

Woolsey is a criminal.

[jcr]

Snowden should return to a hero's welcome, and that goddamned spook should be behind bars awaiting trial on capital charges for helping Bush push the Iraq War.

-jcr

Re:Plenty people in power should be hanged..

[jcr]

islam as the root of all evil,

So, that's why evil was completely unknown in the world before 570 AD, right?

Get back on your meds, you tragic little troll.

-jcr

Re:Srsly

[james_gnz]

Someone should start killing and maiming people like woolsey and clapper. Time for nice talk is over.

No they shouldn't. I'm not saying it isn't deserved, but it wouldn't help.

Re: Except

[towermac]

Fox and Friends is the name of a show on Fox News. He meant right-wing media only.

The fact that you didn't know that gives me hope for this country.

Re:Srsly

[BlueStrat]

Someone should start killing and maiming people like woolsey and clapper. Time for nice talk is over.

Slow your roll there, Rambo!

More "Ghandi" and a lot less "Genghis Khan" FTW here, bro.

Blacks in the US won the struggle in the '60s civil rights movement when news footage of peaceful black marchers being attacked with fire hoses, riot cops, and dogs was broadcast nationwide on the evening news.

Violence will only be used as justification for government crack-downs and further erosions of rights and freedoms. Chaos & violence plays into their hands.

Strat

Who trained the Mujahadeen

[darthsilun]

Whoever's idea it was to train the Mujahideen during the Russia-Afghanistan war should be hanged.
I have a sneaky suspicion that there's are direct links from mujahideen -> taliban -> islamic state.

Re:Who trained the Mujahadeen

[PPH]

I'm just surprised that the US Army had room in the training program for them, what with all the Zetas we had enrolled.

Re:Plenty people in power should be hanged..

[meglon]

It's a comparison you brought upon yourself for what you said. Change your use of "Islam" to "Jew," and you have pretty much summarized what Goebbels and Hitler said in the 30's.

Hang the most guilty first

[reboot246]

Start with Obama, then Bush, and then all of Congress (present members and living past members).

Re:Snowden tried to do too much

[Damouze]

The phrase government patsy comes to mind...

Re:Hang Snowden you hang Obama

[meglon]

... and if Bush hadn't invaded Iraq, and disbanded their military afterwards, ISIS would never have existed. You're just another butthurt fascist republican that doesn't want to admit your fucked in the head republican neo-con politicians fucked over the world.. yet again. At least have the decency to not be a fucking coward.

What US is focusing on

[Parker Lewis]

What we know about Paris terrorists:
- Not Syrian
- Not refugees
- No encryption

What the US is focusing on:
- Syrians
- Refugees
- Encryption

Re:What US is focusing on

[angel'o'sphere]

Answering to you, but aimed at all who got that wrong:
- No encryption
We found one phone that was used to sent an unencrypted attack related SMS.
The fact that we did not find the devices that used encryption, does not mean the terrorists did not use encryption.
We simply don't know if they did or not.
If I was a terrorist, I always would drop un obvious false trails ....

Re:What US is focusing on

[gzuckier]

you lost your keys in the alley, why are you looking for them in the street?
because the light is better here

these guys should wise up

[Anonymous Coward]

It takes a pair of dice, some paper and a pencil to make a One time pad.
Remove redundancy with a "dictionary". The patent was published in 1917!

You could spend $10 trillion on custom VLSI to try to break that and fail.
The messages could be transferred by post, by email, facebook etc, hidden in plain sight.

The terrorists know this. They also know about traffic analysis and so probably have means to fox that as well.
it wouldn't be rocket science after all.

They aren't dumb, they are evil.

I'd rather hang someone else

[Opportunist]

Who was it that pushed for invading Iraq on unchecked claims about WMDs? Remember Iraq? The only place in the Middle East where radical Islamists couldn't get a foot on the ground because of a tinpot dictator that didn't like any gods besides himself, not even Allah?

If it was time to string people up on lamp posts for facilitating terrorism, I would be very, very quiet if I had been a CIA director in the past few decades...

Of course he said this

[tommyatomic]

He's the EX-DIRECTOR of the CIA. He can no longer contribute to the safety or security of the people of the united states. Just like an EX-POSTMAN can no longer deliver mail. But clearly Woolsey still wants attention. All of his ex-coworkers are pissed that they arent getting traction with their arguments that its sooo tough having to not violate their own charter.

They dont seem to understand that the only things people are going to listen to are calls to actually go after those responsible. Not red herrings.

If he is advocating devoting resources to go after Snowden isnt that the same as depriving resources from going after ISIS/ISIL?

Barbarism

[prefec2]

If he really likes hangings, then he might join the IS, as they like it too. However, in the enlightened world hanging people is cruel and considered pointless. Especially so, when the guy hanged have nothing to do with the crime committed. Like last time. The guys were known by the French and international police. They have mass surveillance in France, even if this is not really legal in the EU. But when we are at it. Snowden should be hanged for the paper which did not get accepted at models conference, my dying avocado plant, that it is raining outside, and because he sucks. From the point of the CIA that should be totally enough cause for a hanging.

BTW: USA why are such people, like this CIA director in an office? People who have problems with the concept of human rights should be not in a powerful position. Really, fix that please.

Priceless.

[Kevin by the Beach]

1. Allied foreign intelligence provides name of terrorist year in advance.
2. Ignore hard intelligence, because Skynet knows all
3. SMS clear text and Facebook used to plan horrific crime

Blame: Edward Snowden -- Priceless

mod parent up

[bussdriver]

moderate it: priceless

mod parent up

[bussdriver]

Give him points for reminding people how well government propagandists stay on message as well as a terrorist organization.

Re:Hang Snowden you hang Obama

[Ron Goodman]

Actually, that steaming pile was the fault of Eisenhower and his CIA who got us mixed up with the coup that installed the Shah. Add to that our promotion of Isalm in the Mideast and SE Asia to fight Godless Communism and the current mess can be seen in large part as blowback from the activities of the idiot anti-Communists of old.

I would like to see Woolsey prove in court

[TheAngryCat]

Snowden's contribution to the terrorist attack in Paris.

Re: Sounds like scapegoating

[rmdingler]

Well you're correct, of course. The problem with the implementation of a state-of-the-art surveillance state is keeping the overseers myopically focused on high-probability, genuine threats to our safety.

Once the system is available to law enforcement, it is super easy to get lazy. Next thing you know? It would be "great" to use this stuff against drug dealers, tax cheats, and disability shams.

Why work hard in the field doing real detective work?

Hanged?

[acb]

I thought that military traitors were traditionally executed by firing squad in the US.

Re:Hanged?

[Areyoukiddingme]

I thought that military traitors were traditionally executed by firing squad in the US.

They are. Edward Snowden was never a member of the US military, or any other military. He was a civilian subcontractor.

Accusation of espionage is not proof of espionage

[Anonymous Coward]

Since he can say "It was not espionage against the USA." I take it that the USA has spies, right? Do they try THEM under the espionage act? No? Why not? Because it was FOR the USA? Well, any "spying" done (and it wasn't spying, that is a specific set of acts under a specific mens rea) was done FOR the USA.

Undercover cops aren't "spies". Different mens rea. Reporters aren't spies.Different mens rea. Detectives aren't spies. Different mens rea.

Hell, peeping toms aren't spies. Different mens rea.

No

[koan]

"Snowden, who divulged classified information in 2013, is partly responsible for the terrorist attack in France last week"

The "news" media stated that the French authorities had been aware and watching some of the group that was responsible for the attack, so where does Snowden figure in on this?

No where.

The ex CIA director should have his mouth sewn shut as his "agency" is responsible for so much misery in the world.
And of course you may have noticed that none of these data collection programs have stopped a single attack.

Then there's the FBI still grooming US citizens with mental deficiencies into puppets to be framed for "terrorism".
https://theintercept.com/2015/...

The FBI, CIA and the NSA are the criminals here.

Re:That isn't why you get called evil.

[KGIII]

I have to wonder what it is that I've done that qualifies me as a sociopath... I also want to know how I can get away with committing offenses. Sure, I can (and have) retain a legal team but I always end up paying the price. Hell, I even have a couple of marijuana charges on my record. You'd think that I'd be able to just buy off a cop or a judge or that legal would keep them tied up for years. Alas, no. I paid my $350 file (plus court fees) just like everybody else.

Anyhow, it'd be really stupid for me to leave my money sitting idle in the Cayman Islands. It's much more lucrative to invest in municipal bonds, a variety of stocks, or even to just let it sit in an investment portfolio that's a bit more diverse. It's not like it gets taxed if I don't spend it and, honestly, it's not taxed all that much to begin with.

Re:Plenty people in power should be hanged..

[james_gnz]

Islam is a mono-cultural ideology that by definition tolerates no other cultures on basis of equality.

Christianity is hardly a beacon of equality either. According to Christianity, Christians will be rewarded with everlasting paradise, and everyone else will be punished with everlasting torture, and this is right and just, because they are evil and deserve it, and it is the will of an all-loving god. By no means does this view espouse equality. Granted, Jesus tells his followers not to be violent, while he'll bring an army of angels to cast the unbelievers into the pit of fire that they deserve. (Do as I say, not as I do.) That said, if a Christian should kill an unbeliever, they will be forgiven, and still go to heaven, while the unbeliever will still burn in hell.

Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. (Matthew 10:34)

Christianity inspired the crusades, inquisitions, and witch hunts. (Seriously, if you think you've got the seed of Satan spreading evil among you, and they deserve to be killed, and you'll be forgiven for killing them, would you not?) The practice of religious tolerance in the West began begrudgingly in response to wariness from over a hundred years of Christian infighting in the European wars of religion. Modern liberal Christianity (the "don't be such a literalist, when Jesus said non-believers deserve to be burned, it was a metaphor for something nice" variety) draws its morals from the Enlightenment (atheist thought), not Christianity, although it steadfastly refuses to acknowledge it. Modern liberal Islam is relatively benign mental masturbation in the same vein.

Naw it's easy

[rsilvergun]

Terrorists have beards. All we have to do is lock up everybody with a beard. Let's start with George Clooney. Ok, I admit it, I'm still bitter about Batman & Robin. Stupid Bat Credit Card.

and a wart

[paiute]

I've got a throbbing painful wart on my toe. Goddamn Snowden! Causing me painful warts! Hang him!

Re:and a wart

[JustNiz]

An example of actual government logic (admittedly from a few hundred years ago): Witches cause warts so Snowden must be a witch. You don't hang witches you burn them. They burn because they must be made of wood, so lets tie Snowden up and throw him in a lake to see if he floats or drowns. If he floats he is made of wood so therefore a witch. If he drowns he was innocent.

This guy was a CIA *director*

[drolli]

Wow. While i understand that one may or may not agree to what Snowden did and how he did it (i personally am more on the side of agreeing), i have to note:

a) there is really no causation between Snowden and the Paris attacks. Some of the terrorists were under surveilance and the measures used by the terrorrists are in the theory of guerrilla warfare a long time (i.e. form small cells), and there is no relation to tapping everybodies phone calls on the planet. The French authorities even were warden by other secret services about these people passing the border an being tracked, and did not react.

b) Is hanging actually a legal way of killing somebody if he was gived a death sentence anywhere in the US? Just asking, since publically demanding a crime towards another citizen is illegal, at least in germany.

c) If anything caused the Terrorism connected to the attacks in Paris to rise then that would have been the large-scale destabilization of the region without a politcal plan, based on the assumption of WMDs, which was supported against better knowledge by the US intelligence services. You know, Mission accomplished etc.....

Re:This guy was a CIA *director*

[Areyoukiddingme]

b) Is hanging actually a legal way of killing somebody if he was gived a death sentence anywhere in the US? Just asking, since publically demanding a crime towards another citizen is illegal, at least in germany.

It's legal in two US states, in one case only if lethal injection isn't possible, and in the other only if the condemned requests it. In the US state in which Edward Snowden performed the majority of his illegal actions, the death penalty is not legal in any form.

Advocating a crime against another person in the US is only illegal in certain specific instances. In particular, advocating a crime against certain protected classes is illegal, the protected classes being ethnic minorities, persons with disabilities, and homosexual people. Advocating large scale property damage and theft (inciting to riot) is also illegal, but that isn't against a specific person. The right to free speech acknowledged in the first amendment of the US constitution applies, and applies very broadly.

and training moderate terrorists in Syria

[lano1106]

by the CIA has absolutely no relation to what has happened in Paris...

Re:Plenty people in power should be hanged..

[Stephan Schulz]

Neither are "the Muslims" killing anyone, just a few fanatics are. "The Americans" are commencing drone warfare with >90% "collateral damage" (that's a euphemism for "innocent civilians killed or maimed") - does that make it ok to attack all Americans and their values?

Nice try Woolsey...

[erp_consultant]

The issue at hand is not whether Snowden broke the law. If that were the only criteria then half of congress would be in jail, including Hillary Clinton. No, the real issue is that Snowden embarrassed the government. Not only did he catch the federal government lying to its own people, he released evidence to prove it. And for that he must pay.

Witch hunts are nothing new for the government. They have been doing it for generations.

Why not behead him with a sword, Caliph Woolsey?

[curt_k]

Sheesh, America is mirroring its enemies, beards are hip in some crowds and pseudo-Medieval execution of political enemies is in others. Is Woolsey running for Caliph, trying to land consulting gigs with the Saudi government, or just considering a stab at US President 2020, and why is there so much overlap between those jobs?

Baseless accusation?

[mark-t]

Woolsey said Snowden, who divulged classified [information] in 2013, is partly responsible for the terrorist attack in France last week that left at least 120 dead and hundreds injured

What is his alleged basis for concluding that the information that Snowden released in 2013 had anything more to do with those attacks than any other entirely random element, such as merely the invention of the smart phone? I'd be sincerely surprised if there really was a connection, but it's nonetheless a sincere question. Is there any even hypothetical reason to sincerely suspect that the info that Snowden released actually contributed to these attacks, or are people that allege such a connection just using Snowden as a convenient scapegoat (presumably because they didn't like what Snowden did)?

Tin Foil Hat Brigade

[PPH]

It seems that Woolsey is a member in good standing. It is pretty well understood by now that the Paris terrorists did not use encrypted apps, PlayStations, Bitcoins or any of the other TLA bugaboos. So what Snowden revealed had absolutely nothing to do with the success of these attacks. In fact, given the capabilities of the various intelligence agencies that ES revealed, I'm surprised that this attack wasn't prevented completely. But that can be explained easily by sheer incompetence.

The CIA/NSA/FBI and its foreign counterparts may have honest and capable employees, who would never abuse their position of trust in the handing of our personal data. But their upper management appears to be populated by a bunch of senile old coots who couldn't run WalMart's loss prevention department. And who can be conned into handing a complete dump of their customer data to any sleazy telemarketer.

Take a number.

[GrantRobertson]

So, if being even potentially, peripherally, responsible for the actions of terrorists is a hanging offense, then this guy should take a number and get in line at the gallows.

The machine is in full swing

[scmaccal]

From the beginning major media began reporting about how certain technology and personal encryption was to blame for the attacks in France. It was the usual irresponsible reporting as no evidenced backed examples were given. I thought to myself, ah yes, here's the opportunity the US government was looking for to blame someone else for their own incompetence and push their agenda of spying on every living thing.

Hang Woolsey

[fredrated]

Then just maybe his fellow murdering scum will get the message.

Electing a New People is Treason

[Baldrson]

In the US We the People are sovereign. Dissolving The People and electing a new one is treason. It doesn't matter if that is accomplished by throwing the "old" people into gas ovens or simply rendering the conscientious portion of the middle class effectively incapable of responsible replacement reproduction -- if you do either by commission or omission from a position of public trust and authority, it is an act of treason.

To go from there to saying "Oh, gee, we're suffering a demographic collapse so let's import lots of immigrants to replace The People." you are making those immigrants accomplices to genocide.

Either treason or genocide are hanging offences and the vast majority of the US Federal Government officials are guilty.

Re:Plenty people in power should be hanged..

[careysub]

People in power should stop forcing islam down our throat and force it out of civilized countries. Islam is a mono-cultural ideology that by definition tolerates no other cultures on basis of equality. People in power should recognize this and act accordingly. Stop allowing mosques, islamic preachers and islamic education in the Western world. This who are still determined to believe in islam should move out. If that means dividing the world in two, so be it.

The irony here is amazing.

First: Christianity itself is a mono-cultural ideology that by definition tolerates no other cultures on basis of equality. Consider how the ancient religions of Europe were entirely wiped out by the Christians, a policy of cultural dominance that continued with similar efforts in the New World, Australian and Oceania, and then (with less overall success) Africa. Although governments have recently backed off from this sort of official cultural subjugation, at the NGO level the effort is still in full swing.

Second: the utter blindness of someone advocating ethnic cleansing on a world-wide basis, imposing stringent discrimination and stripping away civil liberties, on Muslims because they are intolerant is just astounding. Wow. Just, wow!

And the blood of the Boston Marathon bombers....

[saccade.com]

...should be on the CIA's hands? No Snowden leaks then.

They have cool drugs to help

[pem]

In particular, an amphetamine known as Captagon might help turn people into killing machines.

Oudated

[manu0601]

First, french death penalty was carried using the guillotine. It replaced hanging in 1790 and death penalty was abandoned in 1981 anyway.

Second, we have trouble to understand how years-old Snowden revelations could have something to do with today's events. We would be better looking at why Francois Hollande decided to supply weapons to Assad's opposition, helping IS to grow.

Redirection

[raind]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d'%C3%A9tat

for starters.....

Re:Plenty people in power should be hanged..

[currently_awake]

When you see "Drone Strike" try substituting "We went out and killed a bunch of suspected criminals, because it's easier than having a trial".

Re:Nevermind - I guess Woolsey is a democrat

[Rakarra]

Woolsey was a neoconservative when Bill Clinton tried throwing a bone to that growing movement by appointing him. Woolsey was a member of the Project for a New American Century, and one of the signees of their founding document that urged a strike to remove Saddam Hussein from power.

He was also John McCain's advisor on energy and climate change during his 2008 campaign, of all things.

James Woolsey and the CIA employees

[ToddInSF]

should be hanged for treason.

FTFY

Wow

[x_t0ken_407]

What a senile little fucker this guy is.

So much deception here. Where to start?

[Sir Holo]

FTA: "I would prefer to see him (Snowden) hanged by the neck until he's dead" --- James Woolsey (frmr. Dir. CIA)

I recall hearing many calls, shortly after the Snowden disclosures, for this exact same punishment to befall both James Clapper (Dir. Natl. Intel.) and Ret. Gen. Keith Alexander (frmr. Dir. NSA). with the exact same wording as above, for their shenanigans -- revealed by Snowden. Of course, the clause predates the 20th Century; but still, choose your words wisely.

A Keith Alexander quote from the same source:

“I think any unauthorized disclosures made by individuals that have dishonored the oath of office, that they have raised their hand and attested to, undermines this nation’s security,” he said in response to a question about Snowden (Nov 18, 2015).

They still can't get their own facts straight, even after J. Kerry made the same mistake a year or so ago. Snowden was a Federal CONTRACTOR, meaning that he DID NOT take any oath of office. The oath is for Federal employees, appointees, and electees only. Contractors do not take an oath.

I just want to keep the facts straight. It aids discussion.

Re:So much deception here. Where to start?

[Sir Holo]

Oops, forgot to mention my main point.

The assholes responsible for the Paris attacks communicated with each other via un-encrypted text messages . (Source: a Slashdot or Guardian story 1-2 days ago.)

Encryption back-doors and mass surveillance of an entire populace's electronic communications have no place in any discussion or law-making in the aftermath of the Paris event. It is just another example of the US taking advantage of a global tragedy for political leverage towards even more unconstitutional surveillance and sousveillance (if you carry a cell phone).

The events occurred in Paris, France – an ocean away from the US!

Re:Plenty people in power should be hanged..

[Stephan Schulz]

A few fanatics?

There are Muslim terrorist attacks practically every day.

There are roughly 1.6 billion Muslims on the planet. If each of these would commit one terrorist attack once in their lifetime, there would be about 60000 attacks per day - a bit less than 1 per second.

freedom fighter

[NewYork]

A terrorist is a freedom fighter who is not on your side;
http://wh.gov/iyhMK

iroooonic

[gzuckier]

"Woolsey was CIA director when Aldrich Ames was arrested for treason and spying against the United States. The CIA was criticized for not focusing on Ames sooner, given the obvious increase in Ames' standard of living; and there was a "huge uproar" in Congress when Woolsey decided that no one in the CIA would be dismissed or demoted at the agency. Woolsey declared: "Some have clamored for heads to roll in order that we could say that heads have rolled...Sorry, that's not my way." Woolsey was forced to resign." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
Changed his tune a bit.

Re:Plenty people in power should be hanged..

[SpeedBump0619]

Are there any non-human religions? No? Well, then let's just go ahead a make that next shaky step up the inference chain: Humans, not just religious ones, are the root of all evil. Of course, being human is corralated to lots of other interesting features. So I'm just going to go with the one I think is most likely:

Self-awareness if the root of all evil.

Re:Plenty people in power should be hanged..

[james_gnz]

Religion, not just islam, is the root of all evil..

While I'd agree that religions are the root of much evil, I think this statement probably overgeneralises in several ways. For one, it seems to tar all religions with the same brush. While Judaism, Christianity, and Islam share a common heritage, many smaller religions developed independently (and many of them were wiped out by these three). I don't think it's fair to assume all were evil. Also, some ideologies were evil without having any supernatural components, so don't qualify as religions (e.g. Soviet Communism). Finally, I think some people just manage to be evil independently, without needing any particular religion or other ideology.

Re:Fuck the intelligence agencies, it is their fau

[beastofburdon]

Or we could throw them all in jail and the problem would go away in a couple years. Without the CIA backing them these groups would disappear very quickly.